Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders WonderLube 1000

Does anyone have a link to the story about OxYoke Original WonderLube 1000. I read year's ago an article that had technical data showing 1000 shots fired in a T/C New Englander .50 using non-petroleum cleaning/lubing products by OxYoke. The article stated they never cleaned or lubed between shots and had a 1 1/2" group with the last four shots of 1000.

Looks like a quote from Dr. B.B., Montague NY:

https://secure.tcarms.com/store/natural-lube-1000-plus-bore-butter-in-a-tube-cat-no-7309.html

I remember seeing that in advertising claims. I never tested it to that extent though! If anybody wants to buy the powder and lead, and pay me a week's wages to take the time to do it, I would be happy to conduct that experiment and report back!

I like Wonderlube ok, but don't use it much, preferring spit patches for PRB targets and bear grease for lubing hunting patches. When the bear grease runs low, out comes the Wonderlube. I do like the Wonderwads that are pre-lubed with Wonderlube for C&B revolvers, but it's been so long since I bought any I don't even know if they're made anymore.

Thanks SP,
I had the actual article with technical data and photos. Can't find it now!

wonderlube - bore butter, what ever name they use, aint worth a dang.

Why? And I suppose frontiermuzzleloadin.powerguild.net/ is better because...

1) We all want modern ML's?
2) We don't like traditional ML's?
3) Free ad space on this forum is a deal?

Inquiring minds just have to know.

William,

Bore butter is just a wax. Its great for a patch lube, mainly what i use it for, however, all this season your barrel crap, its just that. Bore butter - Wonder lube is horrible rust protection.

Not only that but the biggest complaints are from those that used it in their bores a lot and it built up so badly over time and their accuracy went down hill.

Check this one out,
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=...Knowing_the_Limits_of_Rust_Preventatives

I've read that test before. Great article about rust prevention.

I'm not talking about rust prevention. I'm talking about shot-to-shot accuracy and ease of repeatedly reloading a muzzleloader. WonderLube 1000 can't be beat (non-petroleum).

I'll be siding with gnoahhh here.

Yes, it is wax based and if you clean with solvents it will build up over time. Season a bore like a cast iron skillet..don't know if that's exactly what's going on, but... I've been using it almost since it came out and I've never experienced the problems associated with it. I clean with boiling water and that eliminates the problem with wax based anything. I also use it as my bore coating when I'm finished cleaning. I belive, but can't prove, that the boiling water expands those little cracks and fissures in a bore and when a patch coated with Bore Butter is ran through the bore, as it cools it sucks the stuff in those little cracks and fissures, coats the hot bore and prevents oxidation because it's effectively sealed. Am I crazy....mebbe...but I NEVER have a rust problems and if my rifles shot any better I don't know what I'd do with the extra accuracy.

In modern rifles if one lets the copper fouling build up accuracy will be compromised also...don't see a lot of difference here.

I'd also perfer bear fat but bears are in rather short supply for shooting in Missouri.

I've been using it as a patch lube and rust preventative in my T/C hawken for 10 years now. No rust, no buildup, excellent accuracy, no complaints. I think the problems asociated with it are complete bullschitt.

I've been doing the same since the 70's and haven't had a problem. I rest my case.

frontiermuzzleloading....yea, that's a real good traditional site...bet they got all the answers about real black powder, patched round ball, patch lube, flintlocks, cap locks, etc., etc. And that one guy wasn't even born when most of us started seriously shooting muzzleloaders.

LOL who said my site was about traditional muzzle loading?

Keep your personal attacks to yourself why dont you.

and you guys may have been around longer than i have, so which brings up the point, you havent learned much if you're still using bore butter.

You don't even dignify a response.

Don't let the whelp get under your skin 4590. It's the hubris of youth talking- lots of knowledge about a few things, and little wisdom to make sense of it all, coupled with arrogance toward anybody who dares to dispute him.

Supercilious is the word that comes to mind.

I use it as a patch lube, bullet lube and to swab the bore in my caplocks and flintlocks with good results. It does turn brown when left in the barrel and alot of people mistake it for rust and panic. I just keep a jag on my ramrod and wipe the bores every so often. My blackpowder guns get used more often than any of my other guns and naturally get cleaned regularly. I buy my Wonder Lube from Eastern Maine Shooting Supplies from the folks who made the original stuff. Mike

BigBlock455 seems to have changed his signature website from frontiermuzzleloadin.powerguild.net/ to GandersMuzzleloadingsomthingORother.com?
Kinda shifty...

and your point?


This is about how crummy bore butter is LOL.

Yawn.

I have done some testing on it and wrote an article on the whole thing here..> Southern Muzzleloading - Bore Butter Debate: The Results

It has its place in my loading box, makes a great natural lube for PRB and often finds its way onto fiber shotgun wads. But I had horrible results with it as the sole storage product. I still have an open call to T/C to address it as I would love to get some feedback from the mfg.

Your always going to get a mixed bag of answers when you post or talk to other front stuffer shooters on the range. Some have tried it and seem to think its great, others have tried it and have had similar results to mine. The debate is always going to continue however as few seem to give any weight to any negative experience when they have not experienced it themselves. You must be lying or doing something wrong if it didnt work for you.

Swampy,
Not much of a test. At one point, you admit it yourself. Check out this link. The fellow did a much more thorough test and shows how critics of WonderLube are wrong.

www.jesseshunting.com/articles/guns/category16/63.html

William, the author of that article admits that he got away with his test partly due to local weather conditions. I see not one point in that article where the author attempts shows critics wrong, he simply tested it much in the way I did and happen to get better results.

How on this green earth do you expect me to do a more "thorough" test with rusty bores? I won't subject a brand spanking new , spotless barrel to that just to get results that are more in line with what you think they should be. Point blank in my experience it failed to work as fully advertised. Again it has its uses but doesn't live up to its billing.

swampgeek,
I'm just saying your testing was incomplete/invalid. What you are seeing as rust isn't rust. The first few patches pulled through a WonderLubed barrel come out brown. It's a simple mistake that many folks make (and an easy one), after all...rust IS brown. If you are using very hot water and thoroughly drying the bore before lubing, there won't be any real rusting. Hunters have been using WonderLube for many years with fine results.

My findings exactly.

William,

I'm not sure if you can tell the difference between a darkening of a wax and natural oil product and surface oxidation in a bore, but it is an obvious difference. Not sure if you have seen fresh surface oxidation but it usually is not brown. Invalid testing due to rusting, not dark wax is laughable as the product claims to be a rust inhibitor.

Attempting to insult my intelligence is not going to deflect the fact that not everyone has the results that you so intently would like them to have. Using your logic should I tell you what you are doing wrong simply because we have had different experiences? I find this humorous, talking about bore butter amongst a group of front-stuffer shooters is worse than politics. This is the sort of thing that keeps people away from forums.

Try this on for a theory, environmental conditions probably play a large role in this testing.

Swampgeek,
I'm not trying to insult your intelligence. You are doing a great job of it all by yourself. Like...if discussing this topic on this forum is so humorous, don't come back. Three posts and already you've come on with a defensive attitude. Relax.
All I'm saying is that my results differ from yours. And so do bazillions of other BP shooters that have been doing this for years. So don't be threatened or insulted, just go about doing what you do. I don't want to convince you otherwise. I'm just pointing out to others that there is a time-tested method here for those willing to keep an open mind.

Hah, open minded...is that before or after you have lampooned the people in this thread that you don't agree with, go back a few pages and look at your own open minded attitude. You make vieled attacks and then recoil and try to save face when you get called out.

As I said humorous. I'm done with this continue on with your games.

Swampgeek,
You are reading WAY too much into this. Your "test" was a failure and you are upset with those that disagree. Don't take it so hard.
Nothing "vieled" here. You seem to know everything already, so I'll end this discussion with you also.

Ok you baited so I will bite.

The test was my observations of the product applied per the mfg instructions and using only recommended cleaning products made by the same mfg. Despite following best practices and the instructions rust devolped in the bore during storage. So in essence you are calling my methods in to question, and then expect me not to defend it.

That being said all I did was post my observations as well as a few opinions on the product. At which point you took it upon yourself to tell me what I was doing wrong and then jump to your own conclusions about what I observed. Your arrogance is not at all astounding and quite common on the internet.

its pretty simple really, for rust prevention there are a lot of products on the market that do a heck of a lot better than bore butter could ever dream of.

I wonder if the mountain men argued over this?

Deer fats better at preventing rust!!


Noooooo! Bear fat is better!




Bull crud! Buffler fat is better!

Swampgeek,
You are stating your opinion and I'm stating mine, and you call me arrogant? Sorry to have bruised your ego, but I was just pointing out a complete test (the link) that countered the results of your incomplete test. Facts are facts.
Calling me names is childish and boring.

theres been a lot more testing than swampgeeks write up, bore butter has never passed tests that the pros did.

I used it years ago and always had a rusted up stainless steel barrel with the stuff.

Some people have rust problems with rem oil.

BigBlock,
If you would, please include all of these tests you are speaking of in your next response. I really am interested in seeing them.

sure, i'll get some links later tonight.

Busy working on my sidelock right now

Hey bear fat is good, or did you say beer?

William, the way I read it, Swampgeek is saying he got rust in his barrel, and you're telling him he didn't.

If I were him, I'd say that's on the arrogant side--you weren't there, so how do you know he didn't have rust?

For pure rust prevention, there are better products abailable, and that's a fact.

William I think you missed the point that we both use the product, it just does not work as rust prohibitor. If you lived in north louisiana I think we could compare apples to apples. I have read the article you posted long before I wrote mine and honestly if he had rusting issues do you really think he would have continued?

You label mine as incomplete, so be it. I will not ruin a barrel of a firearm I built and that will one day will hopefully be passed on to my son or daughter to meet your impossible definition of completeness. If you would have said swampgeek this article has a different results..that is far different from the approach you took. You are missing a whole host of environmental, metal quality and other variables that may explain the varied experience that people have with this product. Simply labeling a test invalid because the product failed on arguably the most important criteria is mind boggling.

I still have an open call to the mfg that has yet to be answered. A quick google search will show you that people have highly varied experiences both positive and negative. Am I wrong in assuming you think anyone in the negative column is doing something wrong?

Swampgeek and Smokepole,
Sorry if I seem to come off arrogant in my remarks. I have called Smokepole a "Doubting Thomas" at one point -- about this same topic. Maybe it's me. I haven't seen this rust issue personally in the 30 years I've been using it, or in any of the ML shooters I've been around over that same time period.

In all the years I've been using this product, I've never seen the problem you are describing. No one has ever complained to me about the rust issue, so yes, I have to assume when someone has an issue with the product that they've done something wrong in the process. Can you see my point. At the same time, I can understand your reason for not finishing the testing. I certainly wouldn't let my bore continue rusting. And petroleum products are easier to work with anyway. They just foul the bore faster, and make longer shooting sessions a cleaning chore.

That's MY experience, you are certainly welcome to yours.

William, can you please explain how a light application of Barricade, removed with a patch before shooting, fouls the bore faster?

There are no universal panaceas when it comes to bore protection. It behooves the individual to do his own testing and select a system that works for him. There are too many variables, including, but not limited to, climate, type of propellant, cleaning procedure, rate of usage, etc., to be able to say that one product is better than another. Take advice that's offered, sift through the options and chart a course that works for you. As for looking through the computer screen to see over the shoulder of the guy who's using XXX product and critiquing his technique, good luck with that.

Smokepole,
Gnoahh said it better than I can. I've never used Barracade before. I'll just have to see you at the range sometime and compare.

William, the reason I ask is that I'm always a little skeptical of claims like this that are made by the purveyors of a product because they are almost never objective or un-biased.

So when such a claim is made, I always like to hear the rationale or science behind it. If no one can explain it, I remain a skeptic.




No doubt. But there are some rust inhibitors that penetrate steel and prevent rust better than others, and standard test methods established. I'd like to see an objective test of bore butter/wonder lube against some of the better petroleum-based rust protectants. I'd wager it'd be eye-opening.

Well stated, gnoahhh. If the below isn't working for you, then the individual must determine why, or find a method and system that does work for your needs. And then adapt, when changing anything relating to your method.

I deleted Mr. Clunie's personal info at the bottom of article.______________________________________



Advancements in the Care &
Cleaning of Muzzleloading Arms
by William Clunie BACK TO ESSAYS


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Rob�s Renegade

My shooting partner, Rob, loaded his .54 caliber Renegade rifle and handed it overto me. Pulling the trigger on the muzzleloader set off the blackpowder charge andsurrounded me in a thick cloud of blue and gray smoke. The acrid smell of the burnedblackpowder seemed to transport me back to another era. A time when mountain menwore buckskins and depended on their rifles to bring home food for survival.Rob�s Renegade, made by Thompson/Center Arms, was a joy to shoot, but the clean-up operation required after each shooting session was messy, smelly, and time-consuming. Usually an outdoor affair, hot and soapy water had to be plunged in and out of the barrel to remove any fouling in the bore. Foamy gray water sprayed up out of the barrel like a fountain. Blackpowder contains sulfur, so this dirty foam left an odor of rotten eggs on your clothes, the floor, and whatever else it came in contact with. Rob used the most technically advanced lubricants available (petroleum based) to swab the bore and coat the outer metal surfaces of his rifle. These modern lubricants eliminated rust, but the next time the muzzleloader was fired, the black, sticky fouling clogged up the bore. The fouling was so bad that it was necessary to swab out the bore every four to five shots to retain accuracy and facilitate smooth loading. A patch, moistened with a cleaning solvent, was pushed down the barrel, and followed by a dry one. Then a priming cap was fired to clean the fire chamber, the rifle was reloaded, and our shooting continued.

The clean-up chore was more than I was willing to take on, so any thoughts of purchasing a muzzleloader of my own were put on the back burner. Then an extended December muzzleloading deer season opened up in Maine. Visions of precision-crafted blued steel and hand-rubbed walnut appeared to me in dreams, both day and night.

Hawken Replica

The overwhelming desire to hunt late-season whitetails lead to the purchase of my own muzzleloader; T/C�s Hawken caplock in .54 caliber. The messy clean up and time-consuming shooting process that comes with owning a muzzleloader would just have to be tolerated - or would it? Reading the T/C instruction manual that came with the Hawken opened my eyes to a "new" (new to me) way of cleaning and lubricating muzzleloading arms. The booklet came with an insert titled, "How to Season the Bore of Your Muzzleloader Right From the Start."

T/C compares this "seasoning process" to that of curing cast-iron cookware. It states that use of their non-petroleum lubricants and cleaning agents, "season the bore with repeated use, much like a cast iron skillet can be seasoned."

The Cleaning

The new muzzleloader owner is instructed to thoroughly clean the bore of the rifle in the traditional manner by placing the breech-end of the barrel in a pot of hot, soapy water, and running a wet patch on a cleaning rod in and out of the barrel. The pumping action pulls the hot solution up into the bore and actually heats up the metal of the barrel. The hotter-the better, as this heat enables the barrel to dry quickly before it can rust. Once dried, the bore is swabbed with a patch that has been lubed with T/C�s Natural Lube 1000 Plus Bore Butter (non-petroleum base). The exterior metal surfaces are also covered with a light coating of this same natural lube. The fire channel is then swiped with a pipe cleaner, and the muzzleloader is ready for storage until the next shooting session.In the instruction manual, T/C emphasizes that using modern petroleum-based products will cause more fouling and corrosion, inhibit accuracy, and make the loading process more difficult. After reading the manual several times, there was still one burning question in my mind, "Following the initial traditional cleaning, if only non-petroleum products were used, would the hot, soapy water treatment be eliminated?"One phone call to T/C�s technical support line (1-603-332-2333) cleared things up, and settled my nit-picking mind. The technician at extension #740 explained it this way, "If you shoot your muzzleloader and might not shoot it again for a week, you should do the hot soapy water treatment, then swab it with bore butter after it is dry. The main thing is to make sure the water is very hot, so it can dry out completely."T/C�s technician said that one of the biggest benefits of using the natural cleaning products is the elimination of the need to swab the bore between shots. This sure would make shooting at the range less cumbersome. There would be no reason to take cleaning supplies. The helpful technical expert also said that T/C�s cleaning products were made by Ox-Yoke Originals, Inc., and further technical and testing information could be obtained there. A call to Ox-Yoke�s office in Milo, Maine (1-800-231-8313) put me in contact with their vice president, Scott Lee.Ox-Yoke�s vice president briefly detailed the technical research done by their company comparing petroleum to non-petroleum lubricants and cleaning products. Lee said, "When you lube a muzzleloader with a petroleum product and fire it, you are heating up that petroleum. Heat and pressure, plus petroleum equals tar, just like the asphalt used in paving roads. Black, sticky tar (fouling) creates all sorts of trouble in the bore of a muzzleloader."The knowledgeable vice president also sent me an article that outlined the research, and a photo of the T/C New Englander muzzleloading rifle used in the research. Looking at the article and photo, and listening to Lee�s explanation almost had me convinced that the natural products were superior to the modern, high-tech products.

The photo in the article showed the New Englander after firing 1000 consecutive rounds without cleaning between shots. Both bore and patches used in this shooting test were lubed with Ox-Yoke Wonder Lube 1000 Plus (T/C calls it Natural Lube 1000 +). The article states that accuracy remained consistent through out the 1000-round test, and loading was uninhibited. As a matter of fact, the last four of the 1000 shots fired formed an impressive one and a half-inch group at 50 yards.

The Range

A trip to the range to test these "new" natural, non-petroleum cleaning and lubing products was in order. Filling my possibles bag for a morning of shooting, my thoughts turned to how this search for a better cleaning process had come full-circle. Hunting for a modern, high-tech product that might eliminate the messy clean-up process brought me right back to a non-petroleum product similar to one used by the original muzzleloaders. Rendered bear fat, in lard form, was a lube often used by mountain men many years ago. This non-petroleum substance worked well for them, and still works today if a supply of bear fat can be obtained. This shooting session would give me an opportunity to try out the natural cleaning and lubricating supplies made by Ox-Yoke Originals, Inc. The Hawken was prepared as T/C instructed in their manual, then cleaned and lubricated with the non-petroleum products. Bullets used in this test were T/C�s 360 grain Maxi-Hunter�s, pre-lubed with Natural Lube 1000 Plus Bore Butter.Ten rounds were fired with 90 grains of Pyrodex at 50 yards to sight-in the new rifle. After a few sight adjustments, I could keep them all in a pie plate at 50 yards. The usual build up of fouling associated with a modern (advanced) petroleum product was absent and loading the 360 grain bullets remained smooth, but pie-plate accuracy at this range was less than expected.The next 20 rounds were loaded with 110 grains of "good old" FFG blackpowder. I thought the blackpowder would burn "dirty" and cause more fouling than the modern (advanced) Pyrodex. Wrong. No fouling, or difficulty in seating the big lead bullets on top of a charge. Accuracy actually improved with the blackpowder.I used various combinations of: patched balls, conical bullets, light or heavy charges of powder, as well as light or heavy projectiles. As long as I used the non-petroleum lube, bore-clogging fouling was not a problem. Instead of halting to clean between shots, loading and shooting became a rhythmic pleasure.

After noting one tight little clover-leaf group, the smell of burning black powder changed from an awful rotten-egg stink, to the savory aroma of sizzling venison, fried over an open fire by mountain men in buckskins, from a time long ago.

William Clunie


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bore butter if not removed from the barrel prior to loading and shooting will give you the same sticky fouling that a petro oil will leave behind if not removed.

BigBlock,
Why would two different substances produce the "same sticky fouling" when burned?

Smokepole,
Mr. Lee, OxYoke's old VP, explains that petroleum products turn to a tarry substance when heated--kind of like asphalt (a heated petroleum product). Bear fat/lard, and other natural products (WonderLube) are not petroleum based and produce less fouling.
I'm sure there are better rust preventatives, but so far I haven't found a modern product that allows me shot to shot accuracy and ease of repeated loading like WonderLube. Maybe BigBlock will come up with some test data and I'll give the new stuff a try. Maybe I'll have to try some Barricade. Does it allow you to shoot twenty or thirty shots without cleaning, and still remain accurate? I'd like to give it a shot.

No matter what I use to protect the bore on any gun, I swab it out with a solvent such as mineral spirits or denatured alcohol, then dry with clean white virgin flannel patches. In the case of ML's I try to do this the night before a shoot or hunting trip. Then before leaving the house, I'll snap a couple of caps to make sure everything is clear and dry (to deny the animals knowledge of my presence, ha ha. As if my gimpy "sneaking around" in the dry leaves won't do that anyway!).

As far as cleaning goes, if the barrel is easily de-mountable I just take into the hot shower with me along with a cleaning rod and patches, and "away go troubles down the drain"!

i dont oil my barrels anymore so i cant help you much on why they turn sticky.

My guess would be that when theres ANY lube left in the barrel, all the fouling get mixed in and trapped, creating the sticky like tar.

You always want to load up on a clean bore, never an oiled barrel. For accuracy sake anyway. Some shoot lower on an oil fresh bore " a dry patch doesnt remove the oil - lube" and then the next shot forward hit directly where they need to be.

William, this sounds like folklore to me. Asphalt is the heavy fraction of petroleum; solvents and rust inhibitors are the lighter fractions. Heating the light fractions doesn't transform them into the heavy fractions. Plus, I'm not as thorough as gnoahhh but I swab out even the little bit of Barricade in the bore before firing so there is no build up from it.



I have no idea, I've never tried that. Shooting twenty or thirty shots between cleaning is not something that's important to me, not nearly as important as knowing I have a superior rust preventative in the bore for storage. When I'm at the range I always run a single spit patch between shots because that's how I get the best accuracy in my T/C rifles with the bullets I use. And when I hunt, I fire a fouler, followed by a single spit patch before I re-load my "money" round.

if you want to shoot 20-30 shots without having issues with crud in the bore, check out the dyna tek bore coat.

How's that compare to UBC?

its the same thing, they just make it under a different name.

Well, I use it but I'm still nowhere close to 20-30 rounds between swabbing.

i dont have any trouble unless i use a hot primer with a sub powder like pyrodex or T7. Its greatly reduces my crud rings with those powders. I think with a 777 primer the T7 crud ring would be zero. Just finding those primers is the hard part around here.

I think I have a sh**load of 777 primers and I don't use it very much any more, if you ever get up near Denver, let me know.

Sounds good!

I have been using bore butter and goex 3f blackpowder for years.Havent had any problems.I have seen others using substitue powder and petroleum based lubes have troubles,though.

I don't doubt it. When you say petroleum-based lubes, are you talking bullet/patch lubes, or rust inhibitors for the bore during storage?

Haven�t read all the posts but I�ll throw in my 2 cents anyway because I have some experience with the �TC Natural Lube 1000 Plus Bore Butter� and validation to go with it, not sure if it�s the same stuff as the OP �WonderLube 1000�. I shoot a 50 GPH flint with powerbelts. The only powder I�ve ever used in it is T7 loose and I�ve used 4f black and now null-b for ignition. A few years ago I started using Bore Butter exclusively, absolutely nothing else ever, no solvent, no water, no soap, no spit.

I shoot one time, butter a patch and push it all the way down and up, turn the patch over and swab the barrel in strokes top to bottom, run a dry patch down and up, shoot again. I�ll do this exactly the same indefinitely until I�m done shooting. In the field if I need a second shot I don�t worry about it I just reload. When I�m done shooting in the field or from the bench I do the above twice and in addition I�ll run down a final moderate to heavy coated patch of bore butter without following with a dry patch. That�s it, period! it may be in the safe until next year or until the next hunt. I don�t remove the barrel, I will clean the external area of the breech very well with butch�s solvent because the blackpowder gets that area grimy. I�ll wipe ALL external metal with a visible film of bore butter.

Today I got it out for a texas hunt in a couple weeks and because of this thread I ran the bore scope down. The last time I shot or cleaned this was after a moose hunt in Newfoundland in September. With a 17� borescope and a 32� barrel this is about � the barrel. I see what I believe is some embedded gold color that I suspect is from the gold plating on the powerbelts, there are a couple of very small tan spots that �may or may not� be extremely fine surface rust, just wouldn�t know for sure without running a patch down and have it chemically tested, really minor. Either way it isn�t something I would give a second thought. IMO this barrel is in excellent condition.

Quality of video isn�t great because the depth of field is extremely small and moving the scope in a huge 50 cal bore causes it to go out of focus and picasa degrades the quality when you upload. There is one squiggly aberration about halfway that is a piece of patch fuzz.

https://picasaweb.google.com/tundragriz/BoreVideos#5583400052852085970

Tundragriz,
I've had the same good luck as you indicate here. Well, maybe it's not luck.

I have used Bore Butter almost exclusively since getting my BP rifle some years ago. However, I haven't had it out for some years, but did get it out yesterday. I had put bore butter in the barrel after cleaning it some years ago as I had read in an article back then to do. Well, on getting it out yesterday there was no rust evident.

I used to lube patches also. I am a novice at this so bare with me. I have always understood that a person wants the fowling to remain soft. If it gets hard accuracy will suffer and loading will be difficult. How would a petroleum based product not cause the fowling to harden? It sounds like it does, but then again there are products I have tried. Also, wouldn't a non petroleum pruduct or natural help keep the fowling softer?

Same deal here. One of my sidelocks has been with me since new, 13 years ago. Literally thousands of rounds through it, 50 - 75 deer. I just shoot a lot for fun. Borebutter since new, and it still looks new. Also one of the most accurate muzzleloaders I have, around an inch, 3 shot, 100yards. Very consistant with different projctiles. Always meticulous about cleaning.

BigBlock,
Still waiting on the test results from the "pros" when you get a chance.
Thanks,

I must have asked a tough question.

No tougher than this one:

How would a petroleum based product not cause the fowling to harden?

The objective test results that bigblock posted are interesting, check 'em out.

its not just bore butter. Even montana xtreme let rust form on the outside of barrels in a 2 week rust test i performed.
http://frontiermuzzleloadin.powerguild.net/t1941-rust-prevention-tests

?? Montana Extreme is an ammonia oil copper solvent.

yes montana xtreme gun oil is what i used. The bores were protected just fine but its not really a good oil to use for external rust protection as it turned out.

It is just old school. Good Stuff.

BigBlock,
Thanks for the links. I keep my rifles in a safe with an electric (gold rod) device that stops moisture. Maybe that's why I've never experienced the rust problem found (while using bore butter/wonderlube) in the tests you have provided?

Nope, that don't account for it. Mine hangs on pegs on the living room wall and humidity runs 90% here all summer. No rust inside or out after 10 years.

Hey, I'm just trying to allow room for error...being the polite fellow that I am.

Well I guess ill add my 2 cents
I would agree that lubes are one of those things that is just a individual as loads.
Everyone has a different one and what works for one many times wont work for the next .
When it comes to seasoning barrels . The steels used today for gun barrels , do not season like an old iron barrel would . What they do, is wear in or break in . thus all those little sharp edges , micro scratches �.. All begin to smooth out or fill in . these are the areas where the iron of the barrel can begin to rust , pit and such .
These same things are what causes accuracy problems and why many time one sees accuracy improve after a given number of shots .
Its also why many folks seek out request the best barrels they can .

As to wonder lube .
Now I know that some of you like it and have had good results . But frankly I don�t .
IMO it sucks . In fact I don�t believe there is a worse product on the market when it comes to rust prevention or patch lube . In fact I believe this so much that when folks ask me what lube to use in the rifles I build . I tell them anything other then wonder lube / bore butter . A good quality Gun lube or oil will protect your muzzleloader from rust just as well as it will your center fires .
I would agree though that wonder lube does work well as a bullet lube . Just not for much of anything else .
Now there was a product called black duck . I really liked that . But you don�t see it hardly at all anymore . Pyrodex also had a lube . It wasn�t as good as Black duck IMO but it was close and still far better then Wonder lube / bore butter

When my wife started out she insisted on using it in her long rifle . She simply did not care to use a spit patch or other wet patch concoctions .
It took about 2 years of being sick and tiered of having to stop my shooting so as to clean her barrel � Getz� so she could again load . Now that she has switched to a wet patch , I don�t hear a peep out of here even after 30+shots

One thing that I have noticed is that those who often use higher charges have less issues with wonder lube then those using lower charges . So in all fairness maybe there is something to that . Maybe that�s how TC got 1000 shots . I don�t know . But I don�t see folks who use it on the range , getting even 5% of those numbers before they are hammering loads down or swabbing the bore . Me included

As to the rust issue and brown cleaning patch�s .
As the lube dries , it becomes hard and gummy like any grease does . I also don�t believe it coats the bore well regardless of how many times you swipe it down there . So IMO the brown color is not only small amounts of flash rust , but also the color of the dried lube .
I think most of us would never let a gun set long enough to see rust that would completely damage a barrel . that�s normally an accumulative issue .
If one however wants to see how wonder lube works . Just open an old box of conical and see how the lead has oxidized and how hard the lube is in the groves .
But again this is accumulative and takes time to happen .

When it comes to natural lubes compared to petroleum based . With modern barrels I think its more important not to be switching back and forth . Stick with one , quality type and you should not see any real problems .

Anyway . Those are my thoughts . If you like wonder lube/ bore butter ha go for it . But myself I think there are a whole lot of better concoctions that a person could be using that will protect the bore far better and give you a whole lot more shooting without swabbing between shots .
Hell I get up to 50 shot �PRB� between swabs , just using plain old spit .
In the end , the old saying of : take care of your gun and it will take care of you .
Still holds true . Myself I clean and lube all my guns at least every 2 months . No mater if I shoot them or not

LOL, cap, lubes are like opinions, everybody's got one?

Seriously though, good post.

Yes, good post Cap. Your experiences mirror mine. I use spit patch PRBs and can shoot all day at a rifle frolic and not have to swab the bore until cleaning time, given good smooth rifling to begin with. (I do switch to a greased patch if the load will stay in the barrel for a while, as in hunting.) Rust prevention afterwards is handled by BreakFree, but that is just my personal preference, testimony provided by zero rust in about 25 years now.

Like I said in an early post in this thread, the offer stands if someone provides the backing for me to prove/disprove the 1000 shot claims by the makers of WonderLube.

from my exsperiance with shooting PRB and depending on the quality of the barrel work. after around 25 shots , exspecialy with pre lubed patches using bore butter/ wonder lube . you going to need a hammer to seat the ball .
infact i have see it where literaly tha patch sticks and you have to drive the ball through the patch to even seat it ..

right now i have out in my shop a Dauglas barrel that had a stuck cleaning jag .
now granted , accourding to the customer , the barrel has set for around 5 years .

simply put , i could not budge the jag and broken section of RR . which was about 5 inchs from the breech face . i had to de breech the barrel and drive the load out ... on the jag was a pre cut ticking patch that i suspect had wonderlube on it as it looks very much like some of the old dried up borebutter i have
the rifling in that area is ruined
where it was setting . the rifling has not faired well at all

That's a shame. Is it long enough to warrant cutting off and re-breaching? My first thought was to send it to Bobby Hoyt and have the bore "freshened" but probably not worth it for a Douglass barrel.

yes it is to bad . but i get enough calls for smooth bore barrels that i plan on just boring it out .

I think the key to using the natural lubes is to not mix other solvents and preservatives with it. I started shooting a TC in 76. Bore butter works on my guns. I totally trust it to prevent rust. Bore butter does turn brown in the bore..... over time in my 54 but not in my 40 flinter...... so I believe its related to air contact. I did contact the manufacturer at the time and was told that was the case.

I once took my Hawkin to the range, after shooting I field cleaned it with TC cleaner, dried and slathered the bore with RIG. When I got home 45 minutes later for the more meticulous cleaning the bore had rusted. That taught me to never mix the natural product with petroleum based..... haven't had a problem since.

Something that always puzzled me about hunters that use Bore Butter. Why on earth would you hunt with patches or smear your muzzleloader with stuff that smells like ben-gay. Might as well bring an air horn in the woods.

Ha ha, good point! Maybe we would all be well advised to use doe estrus as a patch lube!

It doesn't matter a bit what you smell like so long as you stay downwind of the deer. Conversely, if you're upwind the deer are going to smell you no matter what. I smoke like a chimney so it doesn't make any difference to me. Smoke is the best wind indicator you can find so I'm always very conscious of what is going on with the air currents. The proof is in the pudding so to speak and I've always killed more deer than my scent conscious, non smoking buddies.

Another good point. I remember shooting more than a couple of deer with a lit cigarette in my hand.

like someone on another forum said, Butter is for toast

9 pages on Bore Butter. I think we all need to go out and shoot some stuff with our muzzleloaders! Groundhogs oughtta be up and about shortly.

I'm anxiously awaiting that myself. Still snow on the ground here and got 3" fresh this morning. I did get out to verify zero on my .223 yesterday. Winter seems long this year.

My best, and the only one I have a shoulder mount on, I killed the year my buddy put a kerosene heater in the back of the truck with all our other gear for the trip in. Damn thing leaked kerosene into the bed, and everything reeked, even stuff that didn't get soaked like our hunting clothes.

I payed extra special attention to the wind that year, and have ever since.

There ya go !

Now let me throw a kink into the whole thread and add this:
I use Bore Butter in the green tube. It's the latest and smells just like pine. No more BenGay smell for me. No cleaning between shots, no rust, and I smell like a pine tree.

but i hunt in an area with cedar trees, not pine.

That's what you think.

Smokepole,
This is what I know. Yur just blowin' smoke (or puffin' it).

Then your problem is obvious, just move your location to an area filled with pine trees. SHEESH!

William, what I meant ws, "you think you smell like a pine tree."

Get it? It was a joke.

bad part about it , LOL ... is it smells more like one of those cheep pine scented car air fresheners that are shaped like a tree. Then any real pine tree .
anyone remeber the wintergreen scented bore butter LOL

kinda funny really .
hunter A / whats that ???
hunter B its a pine air freshener . i dont want the deer to smell me .
hunter A thinking on this says: GREAT idea throw in that confusion factor .
Human Butt , human sweat and alittle man made fake pine sent . That will fool em

To a deer you smell like death, fear, and government "assistance" all rolled into one, no matter what special odor you annoint yourself with.

Not William CLunie, he smells like a pine tree!!!

(Insert smiley face here)