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There has never been an offical cartrdige by the name of 45 Long Colt.It is 45 Colt.I watched entire episode of Cowboys on RFDTV an the guy, a cowboy action shooter, was doing a program on 45 Colts. In all instances he kept referring to 45 Long Colt and how accurate he was in all his historical information.Then he went on to brag on his 45 "Long Colt" rifle and how that cartridge was used thru out the west in earlier times. When in fact the chambering of 45 Colts in rifles is only a fairly new thing with the advent of Cowboy Action matches. It was unheard of back in the days of 73 ,32 Winchesters and such.

44-40 was the most prevalent cartridge for those who chose to have the same round for thier hamdgun and rifle. 38 WCF,32-20 and other smaller cartridges were also popular. The 45 colt was only very popular in the handgun.

So if all you Cowboy shooters want to be historically correct,please start referring to it as the 45 Colt.

Just one of my pet peaves like those who ask what caliber did you shoot the elk with.Heck that would could stretch from a 30 carbine to 300mag and above with dozens of "cartridges in between.

Rant over!!!!!


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I imagine it came into usage shortly after introduction of the 45ACP.

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Called long because of the S&W Schofield top breaks in 45 used a shorter cartridge and were in us by the army as well Russ

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There is no short colt either ,but if you had a calvery unit using the top break Schofield and you were sent 45colt ammo you
would damn well be telling them to send you the short colt!

But if you had a 45colt revolver you could use either!

So yes there at the time in question a long Colt and a short colt
round was made!

Of course the longer colt round was just the 45Colt!

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Originally Posted by saddlesore
There has never been an offical cartrdige by the name of 45 Long Colt.It is 45 Colt.I watched entire episode of Cowboys on RFDTV an the guy, a cowboy action shooter, was doing a program on 45 Colts. In all instances he kept referring to 45 Long Colt and how accurate he was in all his historical information.Then he went on to brag on his 45 "Long Colt" rifle and how that cartridge was used thru out the west in earlier times. When in fact the chambering of 45 Colts in rifles is only a fairly new thing with the advent of Cowboy Action matches. It was unheard of back in the days of 73 ,32 Winchesters and such.

44-40 was the most prevalent cartridge for those who chose to have the same round for thier hamdgun and rifle. 38 WCF,32-20 and other smaller cartridges were also popular. The 45 colt was only very popular in the handgun.

So if all you Cowboy shooters want to be historically correct,please start referring to it as the 45 Colt.

Just one of my pet peaves like those who ask what caliber did you shoot the elk with.Heck that would could stretch from a 30 carbine to 300mag and above with dozens of "cartridges in between.

Rant over!!!!!


Prob'ly 90-95% of the Cowboy shooters know that and choose to ignore it... since many shoot either the Schofield or the .45 "Cowboy Special" (.45 ACP case length, with a rim) and are usually trying to differentiate quickly between case lengths all being used in guns chambered for .45 Colt.

OTOH, many of the newer CAS folks don't always know the .45 in a rifle isn't authentic... but most choose to ignore that, too, since using a single cartridge in all three cartridge guns simplifies loading (especially loading on the clock), handloading, supplies, etc.

(Many newer folks don't realize the Henry Big Boy isn't really a historical Henry replica, either.)

FWIW, most Cowboy shooters under SASS rules don't care all that much about being so historically accurate as to get in the way of fun... and there's a degree of "coulda been" fantasy involved all the time smile

NCOWS guys are much more atuned to historal accuracy, but I suspect they attract more historian/shooters than pure shooters.

-R44

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You are exactly right. I have no idea why so called experts on TV say the things they do.

They refer to a caliber as a cartridge all the time.

I watched a 30 minute show on long range shooting on TV the other night. There were a couple of so called experts on the show. The first thing they did was to describe MOA. And the first thing he said was that 1 MOA is exactly one inch at 100 yards and 2 inches at 200 yards?? How can this guy be an expert??

I watch these guys on TV who should know-but they don't know. I am not sure why they don't think a bit about what they say. They definitely do not know handgun nomenclature.

I am sure the "long" was just added at some point by someone who was just trying to differentiate it from the "short" cartridges. But that still does not make it right. Tom.


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It makes as much sense as calling the 270 WSM a short magnum. The nomenclature suggests there should be a long one. At least with the 300 WSM there is a Winchester longer mag, and, while the 7mm doesn't have a Winchester long partner in the line-up, it probably can get a pass since the Rem Mag version is often simply called the "Seven Mag". But what's up with calling the 350 Remington a Magnum? The only thing magnum there is the belt. Since that is the case, simply saying 350 Remington belted would suffice. And "38" for a cartridge that uses bullets not even 36 caliber? Give me a break!

Actually, I don't sweat the names of cartridges. On the contrary, when things seem off somehow, usually there's a clue that a story of some kind exists, and that's never a bad thing if you like history.


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Actually, there was an article a few years ago in handloader about this very topic. The author referenced 19th century sources of the term "Long Colt" including original cartridge boxes. As I recall, it was his conclusion that the Army was responsible for the terminology due to the confusion of .45 Colt vs. .45 Schofield in issue ammunition.

Maybe someone with the Rifle/Handloader CDs could do a search for the article.


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Originally Posted by saddlesore
There has never been an offical cartrdige by the name of 45 Long Colt.It is 45 Colt.I watched entire episode of Cowboys on RFDTV an the guy, a cowboy action shooter, was doing a program on 45 Colts. In all instances he kept referring to 45 Long Colt and how accurate he was in all his historical information.Then he went on to brag on his 45 "Long Colt" rifle and how that cartridge was used thru out the west in earlier times. When in fact the chambering of 45 Colts in rifles is only a fairly new thing with the advent of Cowboy Action matches. It was unheard of back in the days of 73 ,32 Winchesters and such.

44-40 was the most prevalent cartridge for those who chose to have the same round for thier hamdgun and rifle. 38 WCF,32-20 and other smaller cartridges were also popular. The 45 colt was only very popular in the handgun.

So if all you Cowboy shooters want to be historically correct,please start referring to it as the 45 Colt.

Just one of my pet peaves like those who ask what caliber did you shoot the elk with.Heck that would could stretch from a 30 carbine to 300mag and above with dozens of "cartridges in between.

Rant over!!!!!



My pet peeve (OK one of) Is the people who talk of the non existing 41 special. For those here that do not know there was not a 41 special, short or S&W or Colt or whatever before the 41 magnum. It was designed and brought out as the 41 magnum not a lengthened version of a 41 whatever.

Yes I am nit picking but some nits need picked

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Slightly off topic, but I remember watching cowboy movies
when I was a kid and seeing indians using Winchester 94s.

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Originally Posted by Jericho
Slightly off topic, but I remember watching cowboy movies
when I was a kid and seeing indians using Winchester 94s.


I hate that.
I also hate seeing Colt SAA's being used in movies supposedly set before '73.
I also hate seeing saddles with Association trees being used in movies.

Thankfully most of the newer generation of producers and directors are more concerned with getting details right than some before them were.


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Originally Posted by Jericho
Slightly off topic, but I remember watching cowboy movies
when I was a kid and seeing indians using Winchester 94s.
They were probably '92s, which are pretty difficult to distinguish from '94s, especially at a glance. The 1892 Winchester was exceedingly popular in films due to its ability to ingest the popular "Five-in-One blanks" that were used on the sets. Same with the Colt SAA.

One of the most infamous cases was The Commancheros, a John Wayne offering set in 1836.

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Originally Posted by ColeYounger
Originally Posted by Jericho
Slightly off topic, but I remember watching cowboy movies
when I was a kid and seeing indians using Winchester 94s.
They were probably '92s, which are pretty difficult to distinguish from '94s, especially at a glance. The 1892 Winchester was exceedingly popular in films due to its ability to ingest the popular "Five-in-One blanks" that were used on the sets. Same with the Colt SAA.

One of the most infamous cases was The Commancheros, a John Wayne offering set in 1836.


I heard a rumour once that right up till just before filming began the rifle to be used in the film "Winchester '73" was a '92. Not sure how true that is.


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Common usage in language, even though 'wrong', often persists and eventually becomes 'acceptable', and recognised as so in the very publication of new dictionaries. English usage just evolves and people can understand.

I am no longer irritated by hearing a reference to the "45 Long Colt" for the correct term "45 Colt" ... I am sometimes more irritated by hearing someone sternly correcting the misusage of the term ... ... Peace.

I have become SO liberal, that I don't even mind hearing the term "CLIP!" instead of "MAGAZINE!"

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Compromiser! grin


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Still, common useage don't make it right.I lump it into the same category as all the ones who ask what caliber you hunting with when they mean cartrdige.


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Originally Posted by maarty
Originally Posted by Jericho
Slightly off topic, but I remember watching cowboy movies
when I was a kid and seeing indians using Winchester 94s.


I hate that.
I also hate seeing Colt SAA's being used in movies supposedly set before '73.
I also hate seeing saddles with Association trees being used in movies.

Thankfully most of the newer generation of producers and directors are more concerned with getting details right than some before them were.


How about inner-tube wrapped saddle horns set in 1880's?
Mark


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Originally Posted by 8mmwapiti
Originally Posted by saddlesore
There has never been an offical cartrdige by the name of 45 Long Colt.It is 45 Colt.I watched entire episode of Cowboys on RFDTV an the guy, a cowboy action shooter, was doing a program on 45 Colts. In all instances he kept referring to 45 Long Colt and how accurate he was in all his historical information.Then he went on to brag on his 45 "Long Colt" rifle and how that cartridge was used thru out the west in earlier times. When in fact the chambering of 45 Colts in rifles is only a fairly new thing with the advent of Cowboy Action matches. It was unheard of back in the days of 73 ,32 Winchesters and such.

44-40 was the most prevalent cartridge for those who chose to have the same round for thier hamdgun and rifle. 38 WCF,32-20 and other smaller cartridges were also popular. The 45 colt was only very popular in the handgun.

So if all you Cowboy shooters want to be historically correct,please start referring to it as the 45 Colt.

Just one of my pet peaves like those who ask what caliber did you shoot the elk with.Heck that would could stretch from a 30 carbine to 300mag and above with dozens of "cartridges in between.

Rant over!!!!!



My pet peeve (OK one of) Is the people who talk of the non existing 41 special. For those here that do not know there was not a 41 special, short or S&W or Colt or whatever before the 41 magnum. It was designed and brought out as the 41 magnum not a lengthened version of a 41 whatever.

Yes I am nit picking but some nits need picked

8mmwapiti


The .41 Long Colt cartridge was created in 1877 for Colt's double-action "Thunderer" revolver.

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The 41 Colt,blackpowder round has been around since the 1870s.It also was loaded with a Heeled bullet,similar to our beloved 22 s,l,and lr,cartridges.

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Originally Posted by colt45
The 41 Colt,blackpowder round has been around since the 1870s.It also was loaded with a Heeled bullet,similar to our beloved 22 s,l,and lr,cartridges.


And as such had various case lengths thru its evolution to final offering. Ole Elmer liked it, saying it was a heap better than a .38 Spec. for personal defense. But Elmer always liked bigger...

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Originally Posted by ColeYounger
Originally Posted by Jericho
Slightly off topic, but I remember watching cowboy movies
when I was a kid and seeing indians using Winchester 94s.
They were probably '92s, which are pretty difficult to distinguish from '94s, especially at a glance. The 1892 Winchester was exceedingly popular in films due to its ability to ingest the popular "Five-in-One blanks" that were used on the sets. Same with the Colt SAA.

One of the most infamous cases was The Commancheros, a John Wayne offering set in 1836.



Yep and I saw another John Wayne Movie- I forget the title- set in post Civil War 1866-1867

the Duke was packing a '73 Colt SAA and a model '92 Winchester...


He was ahead of his time.... grin


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Originally Posted by ingwe
Originally Posted by ColeYounger
Originally Posted by Jericho
Slightly off topic, but I remember watching cowboy movies
when I was a kid and seeing indians using Winchester 94s.
They were probably '92s, which are pretty difficult to distinguish from '94s, especially at a glance. The 1892 Winchester was exceedingly popular in films due to its ability to ingest the popular "Five-in-One blanks" that were used on the sets. Same with the Colt SAA.

One of the most infamous cases was The Commancheros, a John Wayne offering set in 1836.



Yep and I saw another John Wayne Movie- I forget the title- set in post Civil War 1866-1867

the Duke was packing a '73 Colt SAA and a model '92 Winchester...


He was ahead of his time.... grin


The Duke was just "progressive", always a generation or two ahead of his time...

But, that's what made him the Duke...

Only mere mortals were limited to flintlocks during the 1830's and percussion caps during the Civil War...

I've read that the 38-40 was his favorite. Something to do with the 5 way blanks they used...

The Duke was a man's man and whatever he used was OK with us, period correctness, notwithstanding...

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True Dat...and Ive heard the same thing on the 5-way blanks...


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Originally Posted by ingwe
True Dat...and Ive heard the same thing on the 5-way blanks...


OK, so what exactly is a 5-way blank?


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Originally Posted by Craigster
Originally Posted by ingwe
True Dat...and Ive heard the same thing on the 5-way blanks...


OK, so what exactly is a 5-way blank?
It is/was the common Hollywood blank cartridge used in westerns. Filled with black or smokeless powder but with no projectile. It could be used in guns chambered for 45 Colt, 44-40, or 38-40. The "Five" referred to its being able to be utilized in Winchesters chambered for the 44-40 or 38-40 or Colt SAA's chambered in the same or for 45 Colt. There were no originally-chambered 45 Colt Winchesters back when the blanks originated.

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Originally Posted by Craigster
Originally Posted by ingwe
True Dat...and Ive heard the same thing on the 5-way blanks...


OK, so what exactly is a 5-way blank?


I used the term "5-way blank", whereas the correct name is "5-in-1 blanks". I think an earlier poster had used the correct terminology. Anyway, the info was right.

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Originally Posted by saddlesore
So if all you Cowboy shooters want to be historically correct,please start referring to it as the 45 Colt.



WHy the 45 Long colt? because there once was a 45 Colt short.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/45_short_colt.htm


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Maybe the long colt was developed for use in the buntline specials wink


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8MM Wapiti, You are correct.

The only 41 Special I've seen and shot belongs to Rocky Raab and fires a shortened 41mag case, very well I might add.

"45 LONG Colt" is a long time peeve of mine as well, It's 45 Colt, not 45 S&W, not 45 ACP, well you know...


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The Searchers?


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Kabom why have you not been removed for interupting the normal

flow of a sites posting? You have nothing to contribute to this

post about 45 long or short!

That makes you a troll and very arrogant as well,as I see your

automatic fucing up every thing boreing !!!!!

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All of the issues over long and short-or regular Colt cartridges came along because of a change in the ammunition. Original Colt 41 and 38 cal. rounds were loaded with full caliber "heeled" bullets that were outside lubed. The change came along at the instigation of the Russians, whereby the cartridge dimensions remained the same, but the bullets were now inside lubed, and fit into the brass/copper case. Not only did this reduce the diameter of the bullet, but the new cases were longer to accommodate inside lubed bullets-thus, the "long" moniker.
There was never any need to refer to the .45 Colt as the "long", because the storied round was designed from the start with an inside lubed bullet. It never went through a redesign, so it never had its case shortened, or lengthened.
It is also true that throughout the 19th Century, no handgun manufacturer other than Colt ever chambered the great round.
It is true that the army listened to Col. Schofield, and ordered some 6,000 examples for cavalry use, however these rounds were not true short Colt rounds-they were simply referred to as .45 Revolver.
There was a 450 Short Colt, which was actually one of the nonsensically confusing spinoffs of British handgun cartridges, however it bore no relation to the 45 Colt dimensionally, or in terms of pedigree.
British Cartridges were sometimes referred to as Colt cartridges, probably because they found their way in Colt guns. The most well known was the 455 Eley-a.k.a. the 455 Webley, 475 Enfield, and the 455 Colt.
The term .45 Long Colt was never an official moniker, it was essentially slang, today so pervasive that if you say 45 Colt to most gun store counter types, you get a very blank look.
I pointed this out to one gun store employee, and he thought I was talking about the .45 ACP! Another replied...well, you might be right, but I don't care, because long colt just sounds so cool!
What can one do with that?

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Originally Posted by Mak
... Another replied...well, you might be right, but I don't care, because long colt just sounds so cool!
What can one do with that?


Ignorance is bliss! grin

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This has been beaten to death over the years. IIRC, and I may not, Mike Venturino listed examples, in one of his articles or books, of the 45 Colt being called the "Long Colt" back in the old west era. I think he also may have found examples of cartridge boxes so designated. To me, that settles the issue. The term was evidently in usage on the frontier, how commonly, I don't know. I have always preferred "45 Colt" myself, because I'm not into drama, but that's just me. Either term is fine.

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Originally Posted by ingwe
Originally Posted by ColeYounger
Originally Posted by Jericho
Slightly off topic, but I remember watching cowboy movies
when I was a kid and seeing indians using Winchester 94s.
They were probably '92s, which are pretty difficult to distinguish from '94s, especially at a glance. The 1892 Winchester was exceedingly popular in films due to its ability to ingest the popular "Five-in-One blanks" that were used on the sets. Same with the Colt SAA.

One of the most infamous cases was The Commancheros, a John Wayne offering set in 1836.



Yep and I saw another John Wayne Movie- I forget the title- set in post Civil War 1866-1867

the Duke was packing a '73 Colt SAA and a model '92 Winchester...


He was ahead of his time.... grin
Red River was set in the period of 1851 through 1865. It's not listed on the IMdB Guns in Movies site, so I'll have to rely on my own eyes. In it, Duke uses what appears to be a Trapdoor Springfield Carbine 22 years before it existed or possibly only fifteen years before it did. Duke also taught us in this movie that SAA's were common in 1865 along with '92 Winchesters. In 1851, he and Walter Brennan are wearing revolvers of some sort. At the time, a smattering of Colt Pattersons would have been available, plus the Walker, Dragoons and Baby Dragoon model. Neither looks big enough to be a Walker or Dragoon and the Navy wouldn't have made it to Oklahoma yet.

Then there is The Undefeated, set right after the War Between the States. Rio Lobo is too. The Searchers is an otherwise excellent movie.

I don't know why Duke, when he set The Alamo in daylight, didn't go for it and arm the Texicans with '92s and SA's. If he'd have went whole-hog and brought in a couple of Gatling Guns, who knows?

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I've read that the reason they used Trapdoor Springfields in some scenes in The Outlaw Josey Wales was because its safer to fire a blank cartridge than to fire a blank-loaded muzzle loader. I guess maybe the blank cartridge doesn't need a wad or as much of one because it can be crimped? Anyway, if you look closely you'll see that they are shooting Trapdoor Springfields from inside the house.

The still pictures and closeups show a regular Colt Walker and the other, lesser, revolvers but the shooting scenes were done with revolvers converted to fire cartridges for the same reason.

That same issue may have had something to do with the prevalence of guns from the future in so many other movies as well.

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Originally Posted by 300Takedown
I've read that the reason they used Trapdoor Springfields in some scenes in The Outlaw Josey Wales was because its safer to fire a blank cartridge than to fire a blank-loaded muzzle loader. I guess maybe the blank cartridge doesn't need a wad or as much of one because it can be crimped? Anyway, if you look closely you'll see that they are shooting Trapdoor Springfields from inside the house.

The still pictures and closeups show a regular Colt Walker and the other, lesser, revolvers but the shooting scenes were done with revolvers converted to fire cartridges for the same reason.

That same issue may have had something to do with the prevalence of guns from the future in so many other movies as well.
The older movies just didn't have the attention to detail on firearms that the newer ones do. Josey Wales was made during a time when movies were transitioning to much more accurate depictions, so the movie is interspersed with guns that were easy to work with and guns that are historically accurate. The Navajo woman's pistol, when she gets the drop on Lone Waite, is obviously a conversion.

One thing about Josey Wales, it is unclear what year it is. Allin Conversions came out in what? 1866? It could easily have been 1866 and the guns came from the Commanchero's stock-stuff that could have been stolen or bought from rogue elements of the US Army. The cartridge conversion pistols are a big stretch though. So is the model 1874 Sharps, which actually came out in 1871.

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Originally Posted by 300Takedown
I've read that the reason they used Trapdoor Springfields in some scenes in The Outlaw Josey Wales was because its safer to fire a blank cartridge than to fire a blank-loaded muzzle loader.
That's only part of the reason (although no one wants to see a ram rod go zinging across the set). The other reason is a combination of time/reliability. Generally speaking to get 60 seconds of film requires up to 45 minutes of set up (and you wondered why movies cost millions to make). This means that when the action is hot and heavy, most producers/directors can't afford to re-shoot a scene because the muzzle loader failed to fire on cue.

The use of blanks has another advantage and that is sight and sound -- they can be loaded to smoke, flash, or bang, or any combination of these three. Usually the sound is a mere pop, with the the bang added in later, in post production, when other sound effects are added to the picture.

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Originally Posted by saddlesore
There has never been an offical cartrdige by the name of 45 Long Colt.It is 45 Colt.I watched entire episode of Cowboys on RFDTV an the guy, a cowboy action shooter, was doing a program on 45 Colts. In all instances he kept referring to 45 Long Colt and how accurate he was in all his historical information.Then he went on to brag on his 45 "Long Colt" rifle and how that cartridge was used thru out the west in earlier times. When in fact the chambering of 45 Colts in rifles is only a fairly new thing with the advent of Cowboy Action matches. It was unheard of back in the days of 73 ,32 Winchesters and such.

44-40 was the most prevalent cartridge for those who chose to have the same round for thier hamdgun and rifle. 38 WCF,32-20 and other smaller cartridges were also popular. The 45 colt was only very popular in the handgun.

So if all you Cowboy shooters want to be historically correct,please start referring to it as the 45 Colt.

Just one of my pet peaves like those who ask what caliber did you shoot the elk with.Heck that would could stretch from a 30 carbine to 300mag and above with dozens of "cartridges in between.

Rant over!!!!!

Excellent idea.

Then we can go after the people who call it the 5.56x45 NATO. And after that, we find all those snobs who call the .257 Roberts "Bob" (they make me wanna puke) and nail their shoes to their feet. Then we need to track down all the newspaper reporters who still use the expression "assault weapon" and cut the head off their lawn jockey and burn a cross on their lawn.

Can we go after the car guys too, 'cuz people who don't pronounce the 'E' when they say 'Porsche' really steam me.


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Get used to it. Even barrels are stamped 45LC now.


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Originally Posted by Lunarphase
Get used to it. Even barrels are stamped 45LC now.


Not on my Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt, nor my Colt's Single Action New Frontier .45 Colt, nor my Colt's Single Action Peacemaker .45 Colt. smile

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Why the 45 Long colt? because there once was a 45 Colt short.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/45_short_colt.htm
[/quote]
Excellent Reading

It helps verify some of the Caliber History I undersood .

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Now, is it calibre history or cartridge history? laugh grin


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Originally Posted by ColeYounger
This has been beaten to death over the years. IIRC, and I may not, Mike Venturino listed examples, in one of his articles or books, of the 45 Colt being called the "Long Colt" back in the old west era. I think he also may have found examples of cartridge boxes so designated. To me, that settles the issue. The term was evidently in usage on the frontier, how commonly, I don't know. I have always preferred "45 Colt" myself, because I'm not into drama, but that's just me. Either term is fine.


Exactly. There is enough proof that over the many years of the 45 colts existence there has been a need to differentiate between two case lengths that may or may not fit in the 45 caliber gun you have.

What some people find to get overly agitated with ...


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I have "heard" that the ".45 Long Colt" name was intended to differentiate the longer ".45 Colt" cartridge from the shorter ".45 Schofield" cartridge that the U.S. Army used in the S&W Schofield revolvers back in the 1870s-1880s. Being shorter, the .45 Schofield cartridge will fit/fire/eject from a revovler chambered for the .45 Colt, but because the .45 Colt has a longer case, the reverse wasn't true.

I have also "heard" that the 44-40 wasn't popular in revolvers because the case would sometimes "back out" and jam the cylinder. Not so with the straight case of the .45 Colt.

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maybe because the GI's refered to the issue 1911 as a colt 45 and the 45 long colt stops confusion.

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here is somthing interesting. from my colt book all early single actions were refered to as 45 colt starting 1982 generation 3 they refered to the chambering as 45 LC. also my reproduction 1873 is marked 45 LC.

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Originally Posted by saddlesore
In all instances he kept referring to 45 Long Colt and how accurate he was in all his historical information.

Rant over!!!!!



Just like when people refer to chamberings as calibers.


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Originally Posted by Klikitarik
It makes as much sense as calling the 270 WSM a short magnum. The nomenclature suggests there should be a long one.


Lol, there is, the 270 WB.

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Originally Posted by 260Remguy
I have "heard" that the ".45 Long Colt" name was intended to differentiate the longer ".45 Colt" cartridge from the shorter ".45 Schofield" cartridge that the U.S. Army used in the S&W Schofield revolvers back in the 1870s-1880s. Being shorter, the .45 Schofield cartridge will fit/fire/eject from a revovler chambered for the .45 Colt, but because the .45 Colt has a longer case, the reverse wasn't true.


That's my undrestanding of it too.

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They had penis envy back then, also, and like today it carried over to their choice of cartridges.

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Originally Posted by MontanaMarine
I imagine it came into usage shortly after introduction of the 45ACP.


Smooth, very smooth. laugh


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Originally Posted by saddlesore
Just one of my pet peaves like those who ask what caliber did you shoot the elk with.


I'm with you, Mugsy.

Sad to say, even the firearms industry is just as bad. I don't think any of my Ruger SAA's have the chambering stenciled on them. They only say "45 Caliber". I have seen more of these examples than I care to see.


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Quote
Ingwe - "Yep and I saw another John Wayne Movie- I forget the title- set in post Civil War 1866-1867

the Duke was packing a '73 Colt SAA and a model '92 Winchester..."



The great director John Ford, and actor John Wayne, never bothered to pay much attention to the proper firearms for the period in which their flicks were supposed to take place. Just use whatever "Duke" wanted, and whatever worked best with the five-in-one blanks. wink

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To clear up all confusion it was never named the long colt so i officially now name it - The 45 Long Colt- there, i just made history

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It angers my wife when we are watching western movies and I point out....."No wonder the indians got their butts kicked. The cowboys are using rifles (or revolvers) that hadn't been invented until 20 years after this fight took place".

I ALWAYS notice when firearms aren't of the proper period in films. One of my biggest complaints is when the actors are using percussion (or flintlock) muskets that are of the correct time period and "look" right.....until they or an extra in the background flips up the loading gate on the disguised trapdoor rifle to load.

If you go to all the trouble to make the firearms "look" correct for the film, why would you ruin all those efforts by showing someone loading cartridges in a muzzle-loading rifle? Don't they have editors who watch for things like that? It would take little effort to cut the 2 seconds of film showing the incorrect trapdoor.....or better yet do it right the first time and not have to edit it out.


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My father used to jump me for carping about Indians in sunglasses and such, so I quit doing it (most of the time). I still notice it though.

How about when a Gatling gun rakes off the Indians, Rebel cavalry, etc. but no horses are hit?

I am OK with Ruger marking Blackhawks .45 Cal. though, because so many have .45 ACP cylinders. Better to be vague than incorrect.

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SAAMI doesn't recognize "45ACP" either ... there is no such thing as 45ACP but nearly everyone calls 45AUTO 45ACP.

Put my in the "I hate .45 Long Colt" club.


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Originally Posted by GasGuzzler
SAAMI doesn't recognize "45ACP" either ... there is no such thing as 45ACP but nearly everyone calls 45AUTO 45ACP.

Put my in the "I hate .45 Long Colt" club.


I have several Colt 1911's that have .45 ACP stamped on the barrel. Are they wrong too?

John Browning designed the .45 Auto Colt Pistol cartridge (ACP for short). Is he wrong? Really?

SAAMI is not the last word by no means.


PS: use a space next time.


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Been posted numerous times in links above.

Mike Venturino covered it well, as Elmer Keith did earlier.

45 Schofield length case, 45 Colt sized rim.

There also exists the 1909 DA 45 Colt cartridge, for the DA military revolvers of the time, which had a rim diameter larger than the 45 Colt of yesteryear and even today.



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Originally Posted by saddlesore
Just one of my pet peaves like those who ask what caliber did you shoot the elk with.Heck that would could stretch from a 30 carbine to 300mag and above with dozens of "cartridges in between.



Nope, that's an easy one... "Why, .358 of course."

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Originally Posted by Maarty
Originally Posted by ColeYounger
Originally Posted by Jericho
Slightly off topic, but I remember watching cowboy movies
when I was a kid and seeing indians using Winchester 94s.
They were probably '92s, which are pretty difficult to distinguish from '94s, especially at a glance. The 1892 Winchester was exceedingly popular in films due to its ability to ingest the popular "Five-in-One blanks" that were used on the sets. Same with the Colt SAA.

One of the most infamous cases was The Commancheros, a John Wayne offering set in 1836.


I heard a rumour once that right up till just before filming began the rifle to be used in the film "Winchester '73" was a '92. Not sure how true that is.

IIRC, when Jimmy Stewart "broke" those airborne targets with his '73, Herb Parsons was actually behind the scene breaking them with his 12 ga. Model 12...

What's film making got to do with reality..??.

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I thought he did it with his 71

https://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/gun-shots/gun-week-herb-parsons%E2%80%99s-winchester-model-71-lever-action-rifle#page-3


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Why is it that ".45 Long Colt" gets so many people's underwear twisted in knots? Nobody gets bent out of shape about ".32-40 Winchester" or "38-55 Winchester" even though those cartridges were originally developed by Ballard & Marlin.

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Did anyone mention the .45 Auto Rim?

Perhaps the true .45 Short Colt.


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And how often do you hear people whine about .32-20 Marlin vs, .32 W.C.F. or .44-40 Marlin vs. .44 W.C.F. or .38-40 ....which really aught to be the .40-40.

It's endless.

Clearly ammo manufacturers identified the need for the .45 LC label very early in the marketing process. Adding "long" to a cartridge was not unlike "special" or "magnum". "Ultra Magnum"

It was just another way to say mine is bigger than yours.


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Here you go !

Fiocchi got it right

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45 ACP? 45 Long Colt? Who cares.
If I shoot a .22 it might be cb, shorts, longs or long rifle. I still call it a .22.


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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by 8mmwapiti
Originally Posted by saddlesore
There has never been an offical cartrdige by the name of 45 Long Colt.It is 45 Colt.I watched entire episode of Cowboys on RFDTV an the guy, a cowboy action shooter, was doing a program on 45 Colts. In all instances he kept referring to 45 Long Colt and how accurate he was in all his historical information.Then he went on to brag on his 45 "Long Colt" rifle and how that cartridge was used thru out the west in earlier times. When in fact the chambering of 45 Colts in rifles is only a fairly new thing with the advent of Cowboy Action matches. It was unheard of back in the days of 73 ,32 Winchesters and such.

44-40 was the most prevalent cartridge for those who chose to have the same round for thier hamdgun and rifle. 38 WCF,32-20 and other smaller cartridges were also popular. The 45 colt was only very popular in the handgun.

So if all you Cowboy shooters want to be historically correct,please start referring to it as the 45 Colt.

Just one of my pet peaves like those who ask what caliber did you shoot the elk with.Heck that would could stretch from a 30 carbine to 300mag and above with dozens of "cartridges in between.

Rant over!!!!!



My pet peeve (OK one of) Is the people who talk of the non existing 41 special. For those here that do not know there was not a 41 special, short or S&W or Colt or whatever before the 41 magnum. It was designed and brought out as the 41 magnum not a lengthened version of a 41 whatever.

Yes I am nit picking but some nits need picked

8mmwapiti


The .41 Long Colt cartridge was created in 1877 for Colt's double-action "Thunderer" revolver.

If we just stick to the 41 special EG a shorter cased version of the 41 mag and usable in such, of course it exists. It was developed after the 41 mag for custom revolvers and lighter 41 loads. While it was originally a home brew case, Starline does make a properly head stamped version of same. As for loaded ammo, I've not seen it, nor have I looked very hard.

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45 Colt, 45 Long Colt generally the same thing with me. I have about a half dozen firearms that fire the aforementioned cartridge. When I talk or write something about it I USUALLY say 45 Colt.

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The John Wayne movie referenced was "The Comanchero's" and I believe in the first credits or description that rolls it states it took place in 1848, not 1836. Which still puts it way out of Colt SAA and Win. 92's time frame. A lot of flintlock muskets used in movies were trapdoor's with a flintlock appearing mechanism added to them. As I always tell my wife, it's Hollywood. They neither know nor care very much. The Outlaw Josie Wales was loosely, very loosely based on a character local to where I live, Bill Wilson. Some of the...incidents were true to fact. In the nearly last scene of the movie where the guy who is hunting Josie Wales and Wales are having their conversation as Eastwood stands there dripping blood, he refers to Wales as "Mr. Wilson". I'm personally acquainted with the great grandson of Bill Wilson/Josie Wales and at one time he was going to borrow one of my 1860 Army revolvers for his re-enacting persona. Ended up he bought two of his own. He also wrote a short book on his predecessor. Interesting stuff.

As where I live was the end of the railroad in Missouri during the Civil War and there was two Union "forts", (loosely defined), in the immediate area, there's quite a bit of Civil War history close at hand. One was called Fort Wyman and I can't remember the other. As I understand it, the second was more of an outpost for Fort Wyman. A customer of mine gave me a couple Minie' balls that were found on the location of one of the forts.

Put me in the "45 Colt" column and I was aware of the 45 Colt and 45 Schofield confusion 50 years ago so, there is some historical precedence for "Long Colt" but it passed from use for 120 years until the advent of CAS shooting. I used to shoot CAS and my cartridge of choice, (NOT CALIBER), was the 32-20 WCF.


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Originally Posted by z1r
Originally Posted by Klikitarik
It makes as much sense as calling the 270 WSM a short magnum. The nomenclature suggests there should be a long one.


Lol, there is, the 270 WB.


The .270 Weatherby (or Wby.)- was known as a "short magnum" when it appeared--as were many other rounds, including the 7mm Remington and .300 Winchester Magnums. This was because they were enough shorter than the .300 and .375 H&H (the two belted magnums first chamber by any American company) that they could fit in a ".30-06" length magazine.

It's always interesting how shooters get worked up about "correct" nomenclature.

It's also interesting how many shooter who complain about "common usage" can't spell all that well. Vince, no offense, but the phrase is "pet peeves," not "peaves."


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Originally Posted by z1r
Originally Posted by Klikitarik
It makes as much sense as calling the 270 WSM a short magnum. The nomenclature suggests there should be a long one.


Lol, there is, the 270 WB.


The .270 Weatherby (or Wby.)- was known as a "short magnum" when it appeared--as were many other rounds, including the 7mm Remington and .300 Winchester Magnums. This was because they were enough shorter than the .300 and .375 H&H (the two belted magnums first chamber by any American company) that they could fit in a ".30-06" length magazine.

It's always interesting how shooters get worked up about "correct" nomenclature.

It's also interesting how many shooter who complain about "common usage" can't spell all that well. Vince, no offense, but the phrase is "pet peeves," not "peaves."



Hey John. No offense,but it should read shooters,not shooter. grin

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Thanks!


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Nomenclature and language have never been exacting over time, even among the most anal-retentive "experts". Seems to me that we ALL understand what someone is talking about when we hear "45 Long Colt". But "Colt 45" and "45 Colt" have definite ambiguity, as some see the ACP round as a "45 Colt", and they are correct. Yes, there have been a few "short" versions of the 45 caliber handgun round, even if they are not now known as "45 Short Colt".

Seems that a bunch of old codgers just like to look for things to complain about, and the weather is pleasant enough at the moment.


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Originally Posted by HuntnShoot



Seems that a bunch of old codgers just like to look for things to complain about, and the weather is pleasant enough at the moment.


Yep,that's me.We don't look for things to complain about,we are only trying to educate you less than knowledgeable youngsters who think they know everything but it is evident they don't .

The 45 colt was the semi handgun produced by Colt in the Model 1911 , then 1911A, not the cartridge. The 45 in a revolver was not as common in the late 1800's. However, it was labeled a 45,not 45 long Colt when it did appear on the scene. When the 1911 came out, the cartridge was labeled the 45 ACP, not 45 Colt. Usually the 44-40 was more common as it was used in revolver and rifle. Today's 45 chambered rifles used in cowboy matches are a new thing.


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Now saddlesore, of course they know everything, just ask one anything.


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I brought home a nice S&W 45 colt. I went to the local store that sometimes has ammo. I asked for a box of 45 Colt. The guy behind the counter corrected me. “You mean 45 Ling Colt”.


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Originally Posted by saddlesore
Originally Posted by HuntnShoot



Seems that a bunch of old codgers just like to look for things to complain about, and the weather is pleasant enough at the moment.


Yep,that's me.We don't look for things to complain about,we are only trying to educate you less than knowledgeable youngsters who think they know everything but it is evident they don't .

The 45 colt was the semi handgun produced by Colt in the Model 1911 , then 1911A, not the cartridge. The 45 in a revolver was not as common in the late 1800's. However, it was labeled a 45,not 45 long Colt when it did appear on the scene. When the 1911 came out, the cartridge was labeled the 45 ACP, not 45 Colt. Usually the 44-40 was more common as it was used in revolver and rifle. Today's 45 chambered rifles used in cowboy matches are a new thing.



It's funny that you imagine you could somehow educate me on this topic. I have already read the writings of men with far more knowledge than you and far less bias who have the credentials of actual experts. I'm going to go ahead and take their word for it. Men like Elmer Keith and Jim Taylor and Paco Kelly. I suggest you read their writings, rather than typing your own.

Either way, you don't seem to understand MY point, which is that nomenclature (naming words) and vernacular change over time, for reasons that aren't always clear. You have come upon something that doesn't make sense to you, and you are bitching. No more, no less.

Read "Sixguns", By Elmer Keith. Read Jim Taylor and Paco Kelly. I'm not going to argue with you, nor put up with your belligerent attitude.


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[quote=HuntnShoot

It's funny that you imagine you could somehow educate me on this topic. I have already read the writings of men with far more knowledge than you and far less bias who have the credentials of actual experts. I'm going to go ahead and take their word for it. Men like Elmer Keith and Jim Taylor and Paco Kelly. I suggest you read their writings, rather than typing your own.

Either way, you don't seem to understand MY point, which is that nomenclature (naming words) and vernacular change over time, for reasons that aren't always clear. You have come upon something that doesn't make sense to you, and you are bitching. No more, no less.

Read "Sixguns", By Elmer Keith. Read Jim Taylor and Paco Kelly. I'm not going to argue with you, nor put up with your belligerent attitude.[/quote]

Well you can always put me on ignore or just skip over my post.No one cranked your arm to read them.I didn't ask for anv arguments, or comments from [bleep] of which this forum seems to have more than it's share in the last few years.

Still looking for info on on 45 Short Colts

Last edited by saddlesore; 08/13/20.

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Originally Posted by HuntnShoot
Originally Posted by saddlesore
Originally Posted by HuntnShoot



Seems that a bunch of old codgers just like to look for things to complain about, and the weather is pleasant enough at the moment.


Yep,that's me.We don't look for things to complain about,we are only trying to educate you less than knowledgeable youngsters who think they know everything but it is evident they don't .

The 45 colt was the semi handgun produced by Colt in the Model 1911 , then 1911A, not the cartridge. The 45 in a revolver was not as common in the late 1800's. However, it was labeled a 45,not 45 long Colt when it did appear on the scene. When the 1911 came out, the cartridge was labeled the 45 ACP, not 45 Colt. Usually the 44-40 was more common as it was used in revolver and rifle. Today's 45 chambered rifles used in cowboy matches are a new thing.



It's funny that you imagine you could somehow educate me on this topic. I have already read the writings of men with far more knowledge than you and far less bias who have the credentials of actual experts. I'm going to go ahead and take their word for it. Men like Elmer Keith and Jim Taylor and Paco Kelly. I suggest you read their writings, rather than typing your own.

Either way, you don't seem to understand MY point, which is that nomenclature (naming words) and vernacular change over time, for reasons that aren't always clear. You have come upon something that doesn't make sense to you, and you are bitching. No more, no less.

Read "Sixguns", By Elmer Keith. Read Jim Taylor and Paco Kelly. I'm not going to argue with you, nor put up with your belligerent attitude.


In another post you claimed to have a 150 IQ that would put you in the "highly gifted" range, so you're probably used to being 3 steps ahead of lesser people and regularly get frustrated by having to tolerate their ignorance and general inability to comprehend things that are obvious/simple to you. My Wife is MENSA smart and thinks so far ahead of me that I don't even try to keep up anymore.

"It comes with the 150 IQ. I'm only a dick to midwits who can't get out of their own way and who imagine they "know"."

A Breakdown of IQ Scores

The average score on an IQ test is 100. These labels are often given for IQ scores:

1 to 24: Profound mental disability
25 to 39: Severe mental disability
40 to 54: Moderate mental disability
55 to 69: Mild mental disability
70 to 84: Borderline mental disability
85 to 114: Average intelligence
115 to 129: Above average or bright
130 to 144: Moderately gifted
145 to 159: Highly gifted
160 to 179: Exceptionally gifted
180 and up: Profoundly gifted

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I have a Ruger Super Blackhawk hunter in .45 colt. I call it 45 long colt cuz it sounds cooler


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Originally Posted by saddlesore
Usually the 44-40 was more common as it was used in revolver and rifle. Today's 45 chambered rifles used in cowboy matches are a new thing.


True. Because of the original rim diameter designed for headspace only, not extraction, which came in full length and later Scofield length cases "before, during and after the war"...



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Originally Posted by saddlesore
Usually the 44-40 was more common as it was used in revolver and rifle. Today's 45 chambered rifles used in cowboy matches are a new thing.


Not so, the 45 was the cartridge the most Colts were chambered for.


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Originally Posted by HitnRun
Originally Posted by saddlesore
Usually the 44-40 was more common as it was used in revolver and rifle. Today's 45 chambered rifles used in cowboy matches are a new thing.


Not so, the 45 was the cartridge the most Colts were chambered for.


True but I mentioned rifles. The 44-40 came first .Many revolvers were retrofitted to accept metallic cartridges. The first 44's were rim fires. Which were common in the original Henrys. Even the 44-40 saw some changes when they started the 38-40 round which was a necked down 44-40. Sometime during the late1800's early 1900's in order to meet market demands,Colt installed oversized barrels ( .401-.403,I forget which at this time) in their 38-40's because they had more of them. The cylinders were correct, but bores were over sized .I had one of them until earlier this year....Very few rifles were chamber in 45 colt to begin with.


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Originally Posted by saddlesore
Originally Posted by HitnRun
Originally Posted by saddlesore
Usually the 44-40 was more common as it was used in revolver and rifle. Today's 45 chambered rifles used in cowboy matches are a new thing.


Not so, the 45 was the cartridge the most Colts were chambered for.


True but I mentioned rifles. The 44-40 came first .Many revolvers were retrofitted to accept metallic cartridges. The first 44's were rim fires. Which were common in the original Henrys. Even the 44-40 saw some changes when they started the 38-40 round which was a necked down 44-40. Sometime during the late1800's early 1900's in order to meet market demands,Colt installed oversized barrels ( .401-.403,I forget which at this time) in their 38-40's because they had more of them. The cylinders were correct, but bores were over sized .I had one of them until earlier this year....Very few rifles were chamber in 45 colt to begin with.


Not so, the 45 Colt was designed in 1872, then adopted in 1873 by the military in the Colt SAA. The 44-40 was introduced in the Winchester 1873 in that same year. Close, but no cigar.


Originally Posted by RJY66

I was thinking the other day how much I used to hate Bill Clinton. He was freaking George Washington compared to what they are now.
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You are correct about the1873 date.

Per Chuck Hawes book Early Metallic cartridges.

Winchester and Henry realized that a more powerful cartridge was needed on the western frontier, and that led to the development of the centerfire .44-40 Winchester cartridge. The steel frame Model 1873 rifle was designed for the higher pressure of the .44-40, using the basic Henry action.

The .44-40 was also adapted to handguns, where its rimmed design made it ideal for use in revolvers. It became one of the most popular cartridges for the famous 1873 Colt Single Action Army revolver, along with the classic .45 (Long) Colt cartridge, also introduced in 1873.

The 45 Colt was a not chambered in the rifles due to the small rim diameter and the cartridge was known for not chambering easily in a black powder fouled chamber.

This why I stated the early rifles were not chambered in 45 Colt and today's modern 45 Colt rifles used by Cowboy Match shooters are relatively new. I believe the army adopted the 45 because they had other rifles already in use.The people who wanted one cartridge for both rifle and hand gun favored the 44-40.

Last edited by saddlesore; 08/25/20.

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Originally Posted by saddlesore
You are correct about the1873 date.
The .44-40 was also adapted to handguns, where its rimmed design made it ideal for use in revolvers. It became one of the most popular cartridges for the famous 1873 Colt Single Action Army revolver, along with the classic .45 (Long) Colt cartridge, also introduced in 1873.



And I think the .44 WCF (.44-40) wasn't chambered in Colt revolvers until 1878.

It wasn't common back then for any manufacturer to chamber their firearms for somebody else's cartridge. Not sure, but Colt may have been the first to do that, with the three Winchester rifle cartridges (.44 WCF, .38 WCF, .32-20).

This wasn't all that long after "cartridges" as we know them today had come into existence, anyway, and lots of this was "developmental" (build it while you fly it).

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BTW ,I put this here instead of the Cowboy Action Shooting as the main topic was 45Colts in early levers. The handguns kind of tagged along.

I was in Scheels awhile back in Johnston,Co.They had three Colts all chambered in 38-40 with a price tag of right at $3K. All pretty rough. Mine was a 1906 era production but had two serial numbers , the frame dated earlier and was a black powder number. The cylinder and barrel were a later date that accepted smokeless powder. Because of the two S/N's and the over sized barrel only got $1200 out of it. There was some question as to if it was sent back to the factory to be nickel plated or someone else did it.

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This was my Marlin 94 lever I used in matches, in 38-40. John Walsh in Washington state relined it and I did the the new wood.I have another one coming in all original that was my fathers and Ruger Buckeye Special that is my brother's.

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Last edited by saddlesore; 08/25/20.

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Originally Posted by saddlesore

The 45 Colt was a not chambered in the rifles due to the small rim diameter and the cartridge was known for not chambering easily in a black powder fouled chamber.



Straight wall cases don’t seal gas blow by in chambers like the bottleneck case does. The reason the Army used a trapdoor springfield was because of it’s superiority to handgun cartridge rifles in range and energy. Sodbusters liked the repeaters, the Army liked power. The 45 Colt also was more powerful than the 44-40.


Originally Posted by RJY66

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Originally Posted by HitnRun
Originally Posted by saddlesore

The 45 Colt was a not chambered in the rifles due to the small rim diameter and the cartridge was known for not chambering easily in a black powder fouled chamber.



Straight wall cases don’t seal gas blow by in chambers like the bottleneck case does. The reason the Army used a trapdoor springfield was because of it’s superiority to handgun cartridge rifles in range and energy. Sodbusters liked the repeaters, the Army liked power. The 45 Colt also was more powerful than the 44-40.


That is true


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By acceptance by practically everyone for over a century, .45 Long Colt is as correct a designation as .45 Colt.


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Originally Posted by saddlegun
By acceptance by practically everyone for over a century, .45 Long Colt is as correct a designation as .45 Colt.



Same as referring to a caliber when we refer to a cartridge or chambering. A 30-06 and a 300mag is the same caliber,but different cartridge. May be accepted but not correct and I doubt it is in acceptance with" practically everyone"


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Originally Posted by saddlesore
Originally Posted by saddlegun
By acceptance by practically everyone for over a century, .45 Long Colt is as correct a designation as .45 Colt.



Same as referring to a caliber when we refer to a cartridge or chambering. A 30-06 and a 300mag is the same caliber,but different cartridge. May be accepted but not correct and I doubt it is in acceptance with" practically everyone"


No, not at all. Everyone knows what ".45 Long Colt" means, and until recently nobody gave a fiddler's damn about calling it that.

As someone who has used the cartridge and reloaded it and called it ".45 Long Colt" (like many people) for about 50 years, I really have no idea why doing so has become a source of annoyance to some in the last decade or so.

But this same topic has popped up in forums again and again and again for some reason.

When you say ".45 Long Colt" it is if anything MORE specific than ".45 Colt".

Nobody will be confused in the slightest by it.

However, for some less-experienced people, ".45 Colt" could mean ".45 ACP" to them, without the context of the firearm being mentioned to understand which cartridge that you are actually referring to.

And, the acceptance of ".45 Long Colt" as a name, I am sure, arose out of the existence of the shorter ".45 Schofield" being on the shelves way back when.

Both cartridges were intended for used in the venerable Colt SAA in Cavalry service, and the Schofield cartridge was issued because of the S&W Schofield revolver also in use, because the .45 Colt cartridge was too long for it's cylinder.

Go into a general store or hardware store back in the day and ask for a box of .45's or .45 Colts, and you might be handed a box of .45 Schofield.

(Particularly if the clerk or proprietor had several boxes gathering dust on the shelves.) grin

But why worry about it?

Last edited by saddlegun; 05/12/21.

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