24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 13 of 19 1 2 11 12 13 14 15 18 19
Re: What you REALLY need from a personal protection handgun [Re: Mak] #5741811 10/23/11
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,563
L
liliysdad Offline
Campfire Guide
Offline
Campfire Guide
L
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,563
Even for cop guns, he's clueless.

BP-B2

Re: What you REALLY need from a personal protection handgun [Re: Eremicus] #5741901 10/23/11
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 518
M
Mak Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
M
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 518
Eremicus,
Please note, my statement concerning autoloaders included the proviso that those exhibiting the most serious reliability issues were those of recent design. You mention the HP and ol' slab sides, both of which were originally designed to function and deliver accurate shots in harsh conditions. As mentioned, the shortcoming of autoloaders lies in their ammunition. Finding ammo that works as well as revolver ammo is an expensive headache.
A further issue with modern pistol designs,esp such offerings from the 1980's onward, is their abysmal level of accuracy at distance. Believe me, you do not want to have to stop a rabid critter at spitting ranges, to use one of my earlier examples, but modern hicaps essentially force one to do so. This brings up another one of my pet peeves, which is filling the air with bullets. Inaccurate hicaps practically invite this practice, and its a great way to create unintentional disasters.
I personally have dropped guns more often than I care to admit, and while it is true that they were dropped on rocks and dirt, rather than concrete, I have yet to have any cylinder freeze, so I have no experience, and thus no useful input regarding "frozen" wheelguns.
I will, however, relate a true story of an associate of mine, who was fond of extended pack trips into the back country. During one trip, he ran a trap line, and his favored trapline gun was a Ruger Single Six with the 22 Mag. cylinder in place. Well, he got all involved in other things, and managed to leave that SS out in the elements when he broke camp.
He didn't realize he was missing the gun until he returned. Busy in life, he forgot about it until the next spring. Took him a few weeks to get the time to make another pack trip, this time to retrieve the gun. He did find it, and after an entire winter and spring outside, it really looked like Hell. The wood stocks were in terrible shape, so he taped them together. Removing the oxidation took most of the finish off, but the bore was good. We loaded her up with el cheapo Aguila hollowpoints from the area store, and every one of them went pop when the hammer dropped. Whats more, that ol veteran placed all those little bullets into a neat cluster at 40 long paces.

Re: What you REALLY need from a personal protection handgun [Re: The_Real_Hawkeye] #5741919 10/23/11
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 7,779
RufusG Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 7,779
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by RufusG
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by supercrewd
In my experience as a former Paramedic, the 22 lr was responsible for most of the deaths I saw.
That's because when a more serious caliber is used, it's the coroner they call, not the paramedics.


Do you even read before you pontificate, or is your brain suffering from "vital tissue disruption"?
I take it you feel the .22 long rifle is a serious man stopper, then?


You are quite a bit denser that I suspected. If you had actually read Ron's post you might have noticed he said they were DEAD. Do you honestly believe that people assess the cartridge used before deciding whether to call the paramedics or the coroner? Wait, please don't answer that.

Re: What you REALLY need from a personal protection handgun [Re: The_Real_Hawkeye] #5742637 10/24/11
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,067
GunGeek Offline OP
Campfire Kahuna
OP Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,067
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
All things being equal, the amount and degree of vital tissue disruption is what determines stopping power. You cannot get around the fact that an expanded .45 caliber 230 grain bullet traveling at ACP velocities does that to a far greater amount and degree than an expanded .355 caliber 125 grain bullet traveling at Parabellum (let alone Kurz) velocities. The total "volume" of tissue disruption (think three dimensionally, now, along the bullet's path, describing a conical to cylindrically shaped area of disruption) is significantly more massive. Put in the right place, as between the two, the .45 is going to put a determined man down faster. It's just physics/biology. It's just simply not only about shot placement.


On paper, youíre absolutely right, but in the real world; no difference.

Think about it. We talk about bullets in tenthís to hundreths of an inch. Now take about .15 and put it on your chest and tell me how big that is in relation to your chest; no all that impressive now is it? And that .15 at best is the difference between an expanded .45 and an expanded 9mm. Now look at an anatomical view of a human torso and tell me when, if EVER .15 is going to turn a bad wound into a severe wound. JHPís do increase the performance of all handgun bullets on human targests; thatís not in dispute. But to think that .15 difference actually means anything on a human torsoÖIíve had too many years on the street treating wounds, and too many years in the bush hunting. Plain and simple, I donít buy it at all. Use a handgun with a JHP that has reasonable performance and place that round into the vitals and youíll NEVER tell the difference between a 9mm & a .45. I tend to think the FBIís criteria is pretty damn good; perhaps makes for a bit more penetration than some of us need, but still pretty damn good. The FBI has so much confidence in their criteria that any caliber/load that passes their tests is good with them (Iím not saying they immediately certify it for FBI use, Iím saying they feel itís adequate).

If Iím carrying a Browning Hi Power in 9mm with standard velocity JHPís, I donít feel ONE IOTA less armed than when Iím carrying my LW Commander in .45 ACP. I think us gun guys have a tendency to be a little too much into guns sometimes.

Just my .02 YMMV.

Last edited by KevinGibson; 10/24/11.
Re: What you REALLY need from a personal protection handgun [Re: GunGeek] #5742717 10/24/11
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 111,130
T
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle
Offline
Campfire Oracle
T
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 111,130
Originally Posted by KevinGibson
But to think that .15 difference actually means anything on a human torsoÖIíve had too many years on the street treating wounds, and too many years in the bush hunting. Plain and simple, I donít buy it at all.
You're thinking two dimensionally, Kevin. Now think three dimensionally and reevaluate your example considering the total "volume" of effect along the entire path of the bullet. Big difference in the volume of disruption between an expanded .355 caliber bullet and an expanded .45 caliber bullet, assuming about the same depth of penetration. I can't imagine that makes no difference in stopping power, all else being equal.


No man escapes
When freedom fails,
The best men rot in filthy jails;
And they who cried: ‚ÄúAppease, Appease!‚ÄĚ
Are hanged by men they tried to please.
IC-A

Re: What you REALLY need from a personal protection handgun [Re: The_Real_Hawkeye] #5742793 10/24/11
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,067
GunGeek Offline OP
Campfire Kahuna
OP Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,067
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by KevinGibson
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Ron, just curious, but how about the .380 compared to those others you mentioned? Or is it still mainly a shot-placement issue?

On paper, youíre absolutely right, but in the real world; no difference.

Think about it. We talk about bullets in tenthís to hundreths of an inch. Now take about .15 and put it on your chest and tell me how big that is in relation to your chest; no all that impressive now is it? And that .15 at best is the difference between an expanded .45 and an expanded 9mm. Now look at an anatomical view of a human torso and tell me when, if EVER .15 is going to turn a bad wound into a severe wound. JHPís do increase the performance of all handgun bullets on human targests; thatís not in dispute. But to think that .15 difference actually means anything on a human torsoÖIíve had too many years on the street treating wounds, and too many years in the bush hunting. Plain and simple, I donít buy it at all. Use a handgun with a JHP that has reasonable performance and place that round into the vitals and youíll NEVER tell the difference between a 9mm & a .45. I tend to think the FBIís criteria is pretty damn good; perhaps makes for a bit more penetration than some of us need, but still pretty damn good. The FBI has so much confidence in their criteria that any caliber/load that passes their tests is good with them (Iím not saying they immediately certify it for FBI use, Iím saying they feel itís adequate).

If Iím carrying a Browning Hi Power in 9mm with standard velocity JHPís, I donít feel ONE IOTA less armed than when Iím carrying my LW Commander in .45 ACP. I think us gun guys have a tendency to be a little too much into guns sometimes.

Just my .02 YMMV.
Kevin, those are not my words. I'd appreciate it if you'd remove my name from that quote. Thanks.

PS Not that I disagree with the sentiment.

Hawk - My bad, I fixed it; really sorry about that.

Re: What you REALLY need from a personal protection handgun [Re: The_Real_Hawkeye] #5742873 10/24/11
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,067
GunGeek Offline OP
Campfire Kahuna
OP Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,067
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
You're thinking two dimensionally, Kevin. Now think three dimensionally and reevaluate your example considering the total "volume" of effect along the entire path of the bullet. Big difference in the volume of disruption between an expanded .355 caliber bullet and an expanded .45 caliber bullet, assuming about the same depth of penetration.

No I get you there, and certainly youíre right; again, on paper. As to volume of tissue destroyed, thereís a big difference on paper. But thatís the problem, weíre looking at mathematical figures on paper, not a living breathing being. Unless you hit a vital area, you can remove HUGE volumes of tissue and not create incapacitation. Three dimensionally speaking, the only area that really matters is the vital organ. Letís take the heart for example. All the tissue destroyed before and after the heart are basically inconsequential, unless by some miracle you manage to take out the spine also. And letís say you just hit a lung, and thereís a lot of lung space with absolutely nothing vital in front of or behind. In that instance the difference in diameter makes a difference, you destroy more lung. But it a .15 difference in bullet size enough to make any difference in how long the person stays up? Weíve all seen deer hit with guns of vastly greater power than a handgun, and they trot off and die about 30-45 seconds later if theyíre hit well; very few bang-flops. Hit them in the lung, and they go quite a bit farther.

From a 3 dimensional standpoint, the only thing you gain is slightly more destruction of small, non-critical veins and arteries which greatly complicates surgery; but doesnít significantly add to incapacitation.

I guess the difference is when I talk, I talk as one who has been around a lot of shooting victims. My opinions come from real world scenarios (and I donít say that to minimize your opinion at all Ė mine is just an OPINION; not necessarily fact), and Iíve see so many people shot with handgun cartridges. Iíve also observed trauma surgery, and autopsies, and I have drawn some big conclusions from that. Further, Iíve done ballistics gelatin testing and the difference in wound size between 9mm, .40, & .45 (even 3 dimensionally) really arenít as much as you would think. My conclusions are; donít expect your handgun to put a guy down with one round. Almost every patient Iíve had that was shot in the torso with one shot, had fight left in him when I arrived. Some died, but most lived. On the other hand, when people had been shot multiple times, it was rare they still had a pulse when I arrived, and I canít remember any that had any fight left in them when I arrived. And it really didnít matter what the cartridge or load was.

One shot, perhaps bullet and caliber could make a difference (I remain unconvinced). Multiple shots, it just doesnít matter which cartridge and load. Iím talking real world, out on the street here; not gelatin and mathematical figures on a piece of paper.

Re: What you REALLY need from a personal protection handgun [Re: GunGeek] #5742876 10/24/11
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 111,130
T
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle
Offline
Campfire Oracle
T
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 111,130
Originally Posted by KevinGibson

Hawk - My bad, I fixed it; really sorry about that.
It was just a quote feature screw up. Certainly no problem on my end. Just wanted you to clarify it.


No man escapes
When freedom fails,
The best men rot in filthy jails;
And they who cried: ‚ÄúAppease, Appease!‚ÄĚ
Are hanged by men they tried to please.
Re: What you REALLY need from a personal protection handgun [Re: GunGeek] #5742891 10/24/11
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 111,130
T
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle
Offline
Campfire Oracle
T
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 111,130
That's certainly a valid addition to our knowledge base.


No man escapes
When freedom fails,
The best men rot in filthy jails;
And they who cried: ‚ÄúAppease, Appease!‚ÄĚ
Are hanged by men they tried to please.
Re: What you REALLY need from a personal protection handgun [Re: GunGeek] #5743456 10/24/11
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 55,474
Redneck Offline
Campfire Oracle
Offline
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 55,474
Originally Posted by KevinGibson
Iím not at war and I never will be.
You sure about that??
Quote
My gun will not be subjected to extreme conditions or circumstances.
You sure about that??
Quote
It will be maintained fairly well, and shot on a regular basis. It gets dry fired EVERY day of the week. For ME, itís an excellent carry piece.
Until a firing pin goes..

Quote
I have carried a lot of pistols over the years. When I was doing executive protection, often Iíd find myself in a position where I had to carry what was handed to me, so I learned to be proficient with a wide variety of guns, and learned to trust them.
Trust - but carry a spare..

Just tossin' out a couple of 'ifs' atcha Kevin... And I know you pay attention to that stuff..

But I'm gettin' a bit leary of the growing economic/sociopathic factions and feel it's prudent not to put all the eggs in one glass basket - if ya get my drift..

Heck, I don't even go to a turkey shoot without at least one (if not two) backup comp guns.. smile smile


NRA Benefactor member.

Ex- USN (SS) '66-'69

Gunsmith since '98.

Pro-Constitution.

Molon Labe..
IC-B

Re: What you REALLY need from a personal protection handgun [Re: GunGeek] #5743471 10/24/11
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 55,474
Redneck Offline
Campfire Oracle
Offline
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 55,474
Originally Posted by KevinGibson
My conclusions are; donít expect your handgun to put a guy down with one round. Almost every patient Iíve had that was shot in the torso with one shot, had fight left in him when I arrived. Some died, but most lived. On the other hand, when people had been shot multiple times, it was rare they still had a pulse when I arrived, and I canít remember any that had any fight left in them when I arrived. And it really didnít matter what the cartridge or load was.
No argument here.. Isn't that why many places teach 'two, center mass - one in the head'. After that, it's pretty much moot..

I remember a "COPS" episode - they were tryin' to talk to a young white guy outta his handgun when he was next to the curb.. He was threatening to kill himself.. Before they could talk him out of anything he turned the gun into his stomach and launched a round.. (.44 or .45 revolver, IIRC).. Cops called paramedics asap and while he then sat down and looked dazed, they opened his shirt and all there was was a little round hole.. Medics hauled him off and were pretty sure he would not only live but probably recover quite well.. But his shot placement was lower abdomen - maybe just below the stomach.. Can't recall exactly..


NRA Benefactor member.

Ex- USN (SS) '66-'69

Gunsmith since '98.

Pro-Constitution.

Molon Labe..
Re: What you REALLY need from a personal protection handgun [Re: The_Real_Hawkeye] #5743684 10/24/11
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,760
D
DocRocket Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
D
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,760
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
I can't imagine that makes no difference in stopping power, all else being equal.


Imagination isn't really necessary. If you want to measure the physical difference between a .45 caliber projectile and a 9mm projectile permanent cavity, the best measurement is of the surface area of the wound track. I've done some of this research myself, and it's insanely difficult. I've also collaborated with one of the foremost wound ballistics researchers in the world. But for what it's worth, to the best of our estimation, the difference in surface area of the permanent cavity between 9mm and 45 Auto is about 20%. That's it. It's not physiologically or anatomically significant. All other ballistics factors are roughly equal as well.

Although there is a lot of anecdotal "evidence" offered by people based on their personal experience in the medical/paramedical field, there really isn't any generally accepted peer-reviewed publication to establish one service caliber being superior to another. (By definition of "service caliber", the wound ballistics literature includes the common LE/Military rounds in use in the USA: 38 Special, 357 Magnum, 9mm, 357 SIG, 40 S&W, 45 ACP. Other calibers such as 10mm, 41 Magnum, 44 Special, and 44 Magnum are in sporadic use by isolated agencies and are not generally included in comparative studies. Sub-optimal calibers such as 380 Auto, 32 Auto, and 22LR do not perform at a level, either in the lab or on the street, to qualify for duty carry. This doesn't mean they can't be highly effective manstoppers if used well, it just means arming your cops with such guns is an invitation to a lawsuit, so nobody issues them for duty.)

Ed Sanow (of Marshall & Sanow fame) continues to collect data according to the established Marshall & Sanow method. I attended a talk he gave at the ILEETA convention a couple of years ago that updated the data listed in their two published books. These data didn't really tell us anything new, but rather confirmed that the standard service calibers, when loaded with reliable hollow-point ammunition, are all pretty capable of stopping a human being from offering further violence.

I teach wound ballistics and shot placement to LE agencies all over the USA and Canada. As such, I am privy to details of a lot of shootings. My accumulated files over the past decade or so confirms pretty much what the established researchers have been saying for years, i.e., that what you shoot 'em with (as long as it's one of the service calibers described above) is far less important than where you shoot them.

Agencies that train their officers to shoot the most vulnerable anatomic regions of the body have a much higher rate of "successful stops" than agencies that don't teach this targeting method, regardless of caliber.

The important lesson to draw from this is that worrying about gun/caliber is far less important than selecting a gun in one of the service calibers that you can shoot well, and then to train with it to the point of mastery. If the SHTF and you end up getting into a deadly force situation, any of the common calibers will get the job done as long as you are able to put your shots where they need to go.

Last edited by DocRocket; 10/24/11. Reason: names deleted

"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
Re: What you REALLY need from a personal protection handgun [Re: Redneck] #5743821 10/24/11
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,067
GunGeek Offline OP
Campfire Kahuna
OP Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,067
Originally Posted by Redneck
Originally Posted by KevinGibson
Iím not at war and I never will be.
You sure about that??
Quote
My gun will not be subjected to extreme conditions or circumstances.
You sure about that??
Quote
It will be maintained fairly well, and shot on a regular basis. It gets dry fired EVERY day of the week. For ME, itís an excellent carry piece.
Until a firing pin goes..

Quote
I have carried a lot of pistols over the years. When I was doing executive protection, often Iíd find myself in a position where I had to carry what was handed to me, so I learned to be proficient with a wide variety of guns, and learned to trust them.
Trust - but carry a spare..

Just tossin' out a couple of 'ifs' atcha Kevin... And I know you pay attention to that stuff..

But I'm gettin' a bit leary of the growing economic/sociopathic factions and feel it's prudent not to put all the eggs in one glass basket - if ya get my drift..

Heck, I don't even go to a turkey shoot without at least one (if not two) backup comp guns.. smile smile
I'm with you my friend, and I'm okay if all that happens too; but I don't think it will.

As for breaking a firing pin. In 30 years of dry firing handguns without snap caps, I've managed to break a grand total of two firing pins; NEVER in a 1911 though. Still, I function check my 1911 quite often.

Re: What you REALLY need from a personal protection handgun [Re: GunGeek] #5743855 10/24/11
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 26,575
J
jwp475 Online Content
Campfire Oracle
Online Content
Campfire Oracle
J
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 26,575

I can unequivically tell you that a 45 ACP leavves a larger wound in every game animal that I have shot that is bigger than the wound that the 9mm left. In-fact I no longer use the 9mm, but still use the 45.

Marshall and Sanow are frauds

Sanow Strikes Out Again


The Marshall & Sanow "Data" - Statistical Analysi the Ugly Story



Last edited by jwp475; 10/24/11.


I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Re: What you REALLY need from a personal protection handgun [Re: jwp475] #5743886 10/24/11
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 26,575
J
jwp475 Online Content
Campfire Oracle
Online Content
Campfire Oracle
J
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 26,575



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Re: What you REALLY need from a personal protection handgun [Re: DocRocket] #5743909 10/24/11
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881
E
Eremicus Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
E
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881
Very Good. One of the things I noticed on the street and in the shootings I've seen, etc. is that alot of Bad Guys are hopped up on something. Or they are nuts. Multiple hits in the torso don't stop such people very often. They do die faster, but it doesn't stop them. So the rule of thumb is one in the chest and if that doesn't do it, then one in the head.
Odviously it's much harder to do a head shot than a chest hit. But, sometimes, you have no choice.
BTW, while I respect the 9mm, I choose a .45. Shoots through stuff and still does a good bit of damage. I like an edge. E

Re: What you REALLY need from a personal protection handgun [Re: DocRocket] #5743919 10/24/11
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 111,130
T
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle
Offline
Campfire Oracle
T
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 111,130
I don't know about you, but I consider 20% greater destructive impact to be significant.


No man escapes
When freedom fails,
The best men rot in filthy jails;
And they who cried: ‚ÄúAppease, Appease!‚ÄĚ
Are hanged by men they tried to please.
Re: What you REALLY need from a personal protection handgun [Re: jwp475] #5744098 10/24/11
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,760
D
DocRocket Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
D
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,760
jwp... Thanks for posting those links. They're of some value to those who haven't immersed themselves in the Let's Get Marshall & Sanow bloodbath to date. You won't find a lot of links to writings by people asking for civility and discretion when it comes to M&S. I used to be one, but I got tired of the incessant attacks by those who regard Marshall and Sanow with the same emotion that Buffy regards Vampires.

I don't lend a whole lot of credence to the M&S data from a scholarly perspective, but I have conversed with both Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow. I don't hold stock in their company, and I do not subscribe to their methods or conclusions. I prefer to regard them as amateur scientists who came up with a novel way of looking at things, and if nothing else, they "raised consciousness" about wound ballistics at a time when there was a lot less hard evidence than we have today. They have been subjected to a torrent of criticism and abuse that was and is out of all proportion to any "fraud" they may have committed.

I really don't get the virulent anti-M&S attitude out there. If they had been pushing for something that got people killed, I could understand it. If they had been making obscene profits from their publication empire, I could understand it. But none of that applies. So why the vitriol?

The fact is that in 2011 we have access to wonderfully accurate and reliable handguns and ammo that we didn't have in 1986 when this firestorm first erupted.

But wonderful handguns and ammo won't overcome bad training, bad marksmanship, and bad tactics. I can prove that with an overwhelming volume of case by case evidence from my files.

Good tactics and training, and good shot placement trump all other aspects of the discussion. Which is exactly what Evan Marshall wrote in the preface to his first book. So let's get over the M&S bashing, shall we?


"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
Re: What you REALLY need from a personal protection handgun [Re: The_Real_Hawkeye] #5744138 10/24/11
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,760
D
DocRocket Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
D
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,760
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
I don't know about you, but I consider 20% greater destructive impact to be significant.


"Destructive impact"? Define that term, if you please. I've been a professional in the wound ballistics field and in LE firearms training for a lot of years, and "destructive impact" is not a term I've ever come across before.

You're talking about drilling a hole with a surface area 20% larger or smaller than another hole(actually, 16%, but let's not quibble, it's really insignificant). The actual energy imparted by both bullets is equal, and when compared to even modest rifle and shotgun loads, both 9mm and 45ACP are freaking pipsqueaks.

Let me repeat: there is NO empiric evidence that can lend a shred of credence to the assertion that a .45 bullet will "stop" a man faster or better than a 9mm. None. Zero. And if you start breaking down Officer-Involved Shooting (OIS) anecdotal reports from multiple agencies, you'll find the same thing. There is simply no solid evidence on any front to prove that a 45 will do a better/quicker/more devastating job than a 9mm.

Fact is, pistols are damn poor manstoppers. The only reason we tolerate that is that they're damn handy! You can carry them almost anywhere without undue convenience, unlike rifles, shotguns, or real artillery. A handgun is a better choice than a knife or bludgeon in a sudden lethal force situation, but to ascribe some kind of mythical manstopping power to one caliber over another is just silly.

Now, that being said, I have to admit that I feel better carrying a .45 than I do a 9mm. My favorite carry/duty pistols are .45 ACP pistols, but my Always gun is either a Kahr 9mm or a 38 Special J-frame. It comes down to personal preference guys, but you have to recognize that that is all it is. There is no solid evidence to prove that there is any superiority to the caliber that starts with the numeral "4".


"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
Re: What you REALLY need from a personal protection handgun [Re: DocRocket] #5744184 10/24/11
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 7,779
RufusG Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 7,779
Originally Posted by DocRocket
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
I don't know about you, but I consider 20% greater destructive impact to be significant.


"Destructive impact"? Define that term, if you please.


I believe it's the square root of "vital tissue disruption" multiplied by the distance of head inserted in the permanent anal cavity, taken in three dimensions, all else being equal.

And Doc, you're wasting your time.

Page 13 of 19 1 2 11 12 13 14 15 18 19

Moderated by  RickBin, SYSOP 

CTV-PH
Who's Online Now
542 registered members (10gaugemag, 1beaver_shooter, 160user, 06hunter59, 10Glocks, 163bc, 45 invisible), 2,143 guests, and 918 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
RR2/3










Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2022 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
 
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3
(Release build 20190728)
PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.061s Queries: 15 (0.003s) Memory: 0.9107 MB (Peak: 1.1110 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2021-11-27 13:48:08 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS