Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Winchester Collectors Non-original Pre 64 70s-controversial thread

I'm going to say what a lot of other members here are thinking....no true M70 enthusiast has any interest in guns that have been refinished, re-chambered, re-barreled or in any way been rendered non-original...

Modified guns are Winchester only by virtue that at one time they were original specimens...I think the original intent of this forum was to discuss/showcase factory-correct specimens and posters ought to refrain from putting up instances of what, in many cases, are junked-up examples of rifles. A worn original gun is far more interesting than a bubba'd up, refinished example, IMO, especially if in a rare cartridge...

I guess I'm not a "true model 70 enthusiast" then..

I suppose I am not either but I do strive to be. I have a flaw and this is plenty true when it comes to M70's - I fall far short of knowing everything. My agenda is different than some as, given I don't know everything, I strive to learn more. With M70's, apparently the fakers have been having a field day for many years. I find this disturbing. The whole ballgame is being able to establish the difference between original and a faker's work.

As far as what people are interested in looking at on this forum, I recently started a thread focusing on M70's with the word "reblued" in the thread title. Despite the "reblued" warning, I notice 646 views. This doesn't suggest to me that there is an lack of interest.

I suspect many here are like me, they don't know it all and they have a desire to learn. There were many aspects of the RIA M70's that presented a puzzle to me. The responses I received helped move me forward in understanding that puzzle.

balltown does this mean that custom rifles on pre 64 M70 actions by Al Biesen,Len Brownell,Dale Goens,or Monte Kennedy would be "off limits" and too controversial for consideration and viewing entertainment on this forum?

I don't know a single M70 maven(hardcore collector of garden-variety user) who doesn't get palpitations just looking at one of those.

I am with Balltownbob on this one. When I see an old gun that has been reblued or refinished it garners no interest to me. I seldom even give them a look. I have a friend that collects model 70's in 95% condition or better and then refinishes the stock and reblues them. This is what trips his trigger. We all have different likes. I admire a good honest gun with character marks and wear.

I think of the gun shows I have walked through and all the reblued M1894's I have seen. I rarely give a glance at the refinished ones but there have been notable exceptions. Years ago there was .32/40 with a 36 inch barrel. It was original except for a refinish job. The refinish job made me shy away from it but I wouldn't say the rifle was of, "no interest to me." I would like to own a 36 inch barreled M1894. I believe my only chance at having one, in 40+ years of looking, was the reblued one I just referenced. So was it worth a glance - I've remembered that rifle for several decades.

Same with M70's - a refinished .270 or .30/06 - not worth a look as far as I am concerned. But one in .25/35 or .32 special (a M70!) - tell me that's not worth a glance!

I can see your point. I really like original bluing and wood stocks myself. However, I've been enjoying the heck out of my fwt 270 in its new Mcmillan stock. I guess this doesn't detract from the value of the rifle as long as you have the original stock to throw back on it. I also like Bobin's way of thinking too, and love the Biesens..

Personally have no interest in 70's that have been messed with....there are still enough original guns out there to keep me in the game.

Never thought that and I really like Winchesters.




Also didn't see where that was a forum requirement.

A worn original that has not been cared for, and in a rifles case no longer shoots close to the original standard is nothing more than a good action waiting for someone to bring it back.

By the way, handled a 230,xxx ( can't remember exactly) Pre 64 Model 70 .308W early today that was my Aunts. My Cousin said he doubts if his Mom fired two boxes of shells threw it; almost pristine with the exception the bolt has some tarnish. He doesn't use it and I've been trying to buy it for years. If I live long enough to use it he will probably give it to me.

If so, you will see it in a brown Micky with a red pad. Hopefully laying in the dirt on top of a Whitetail..

I'm going hunting up at his place tomorrow, and will try and get a pic if I can get in the house.

I guess I�m not [true Model 70 enthusiast] either.

I don�t know much of anything about 70s but I�m maybe learning a little as I go along. When I bought my $750, 30-06 shooter a few days ago I compared it with an �original, perfect� older $1,800 Model 70 and to my untrained, inexperienced eye, the shooter I bought seemed more honest somehow. Nothing was hidden about what had been done to the shooter. The other perfect gun looked restored to me and according to the shop it was all original. With fake boxes for sale and all the other counterfeit stuff out there�

Is it really all that B&W? That otherwise original Shelby Cobra had bodywork done on the left front fender at some point and now it�s worthless? I think there are degrees to this collecting thing and individuals make up their own minds about what collecting is or is not. We all have our opinions on what constitutes quality and makes an object desirable, but criticizing others for finding a little joy in whatever they�ve stumbled on to seems like energy that could best be focused elsewhere?

Personally I say keep posting all the pictures and threads you want wether the gun is all original or not. Many of these guns that are not perfect make the best shooters because you can use them without worrying about putting a tiny nick in the stock.

One of my favorite M70's started life as a 358 Featherweight and someone in the past rechambered it to 350 Rem Mag. They also did a lot of work to make the magazine long enough to allow using long bullets. He then put it in a beautiful blonde walnut stock with some great checkering. Is it a collector? Not in the least but it's about as nice of a hunting gun as one could imagine.

But I still cringe everytime I pick it up thinking someone took a $2500 rifle, probably put $1000 into it and ended up with a $1500 rifle!

The word "Collectors" appears in this thread's title....non-original 70s are not of interest to a collector...

There's a forum for Custom Rifles for anyone disposed to showing their custom M70s...

I guess if I had a chance to buy Jack O'Connor's personal M70, I'd be on it in a heartbeat even though it "had been rendered non-original" by Al Biesen. I guess I could lower my standards to put it in my meager collection.
yooper

First off, this "thread title" doesn't have "collectors" in it anywhere. Secondly, the "Winchester collectors" forum is just that: A bunch of good ol boys sharing what they have in their "collections". A lot of our collection of Winchester rifles is meager and others are many. The diversity of this group and the knowledge they share is sometimes humbling. I (for one) appreciate everyone's input on any matter regarding Winchester here. If you are looking for a place for just collectors pieces, I suggest you move on because this isn't it. Furthermore, it never will be. Hope you find what you are looking for elsewhere.

balltownbob, did someone pee in your cereal this morning? You called a guy a troll for asking an honest question and nlw this thread? I guess next you will be saying that if the gun isn't NIB it shouldn't be on here either because the nicks and wear are not factory original.

A well done rifle is just that; a fine rifle.

If it was or has a Winchester action then that's good but not necessary.

I got my fill of old M70's 50 years ago.

The last nice rifle I got does have an old M70 action. The one before that a Mauser.

I like them both. The Mauser is more desirable to me because the workmanship is better.

The qualifying aspect of this type of alteration is that it was done when these guns were run-of-the-mill every day shooters. Model 70's in those days were on the shelf and in production. Today they have experienced thousands of hunters and hunting trips and any survivors in original and good condition deserve more consideration than a donor action or rifle for a project gun.

Sure, there are cut and damaged guns that can be altered to enhance the owner's appreciation of the gun in question, but to take a good specimen that has made it all these years without alterations, deserves a better fate than being modified...

I'd kinda thought this was the place to discuss what was, and what was not, original by sharing information, knowledge, and picture of what we have and what we know.

I'd expected to learn a thing or two, and maybe avoid a few mistakes in the buying and selling market along the way.

I agree AH64guy. I've learned a lot here. Usually if you ask a question, there are many here that can point you in the right direction or help with their hard earned knowledge. Others are very good at using reference books, to help with questions. The most helpful books I've found are Rules "the rifleman's rifle" and "the little red book of Winchester values". I know this place has saved me some money and it's also helped better my judgment when something needed to be snagged because it was too good of a deal to pass up. It's really a good place where we have a lot in common and share a passion for old Winchesters. It's not all about who has the most pristine, original, rarest, most expensive rifle here. If that were the case, only a couple people would ever visit this place

I like the diversity of interests expressed here. There's a variety of reasons people appreciate rifles (original and non-original) and that's ok with me. Much of the time what they have to say is of interest. I'm not looking for people who have the identical perspective I have. What can possibly be gained from that?

As far as rifles inspiring me to give them a glance, beggars can't be choosers. If I could walk through a gunshow and find nothing but pristine or NIB early M70's in super rare calibers, I would surely enjoy myself. Instead, I often walk through a gunshow and find little of interest. This gets worse every year - if I could pump up my interest in jerky and throwing stars I could enjoy gun shows a lot more.

A few years ago a new Gander Mountain store opened near me. A few people that knew me (non-gun people) suggested to me that I must be really happy about the store and no doubt I would be up there all the time looking. I've been there once and even though the rifles were all strictly original and not a reblued one in the bunch, not a one was of the slightest interest. Same happened when a Dick's open near me.

I've steadily morphed into more of a collector than a hunter. I'm not proud of this and view the collector bug in me as my most prominent neurosis. I admire guys for whom their main interest in a rifle is hunting. The M70 converted to a .350 Remington Magnum referenced above is of interest to me and I'll bet it is a wonderful hunter. The current owner's hands are clean as the rifle was modified before he got it - no reason for chastisement - just enjoyment of the rifle. And, he has a rifle far more interesting than anything you will find at Dick's or Gander Mountain.

Finally, let me add that in my experience, much knowledge about original rifles can be gained from analysis and discussion of non-original rifles.

Why not ask Rick to start a new category: "All original, unmodified, NIB, Winchester M70 Collectors"

Then you purists can rub shoulders with each other without being contaminated by association with the rest of us low life's.

I personally love pre64s to use and hunt with, because they work. I care nothing able safe queens, that are too pristine to take outdoors .

Boys, think about it. It goes on in the Savage collectors forum. Yet the purists don't think the forum is exclusively a place for them to play. Why would anyone think the Winchester Collector forum here would be any different?

Better than even bet the post is really about making a controversial post more than anything else. Its in the tread title, goes on here all the time and gets old after a while.

If not then the OP is going to be an unhappy camper, because obviously we can post about any Winchester we desire. Original or modified, and even more obviously many are interested.

We can argue the merits of original vs modified within the form, but at no time was the forum the exclusive home of unmodified examples, and BalltownBob knew that shortly after he discovered the Winchester Forum. His choice to prefer the unaltered and express same. However, to say that those who think different should be relegated to the custom rifles forum is nothing more than making a controversial post and should be of little interest to those who like all things Winchester.

I like them all, but make a lousy collector(I tried)because I could not resist the impulse to shoot them..and hunt with them.

Mostly because for a factory rifle they generally always worked and shot pretty well, and did not leave the factory unless they did. Their reliability and field worthiness was one of the things that made them great.

As someone posted,they have by now all been around the horn and unless one is already torn up, I won't build on an action or tear a pristine model apart for any reason. Too many other actions out there to be had. But they are all of interest to me, modified or not.

I have seen pictures of Pinnell and Talifson's 375's.....mother nature modified those and they are of far more interest to me than something that has sat in a box for 60 years.

I like the forum just the way it is, I have learned a lot here, I believe I am more of an enthusiast than a collector although I have both types in my collection, my favorite out of all is restocked featherweight 270 I bought on the campfire from tdn and I think my least favorite is an all original unfired pre 64 I bought from the original owner because I can't do anything to it but let it sit in the safe, don't feel like I can mount a scope on it or ever shoot it and it doesn't feel like it's ever had a life or a story to tell

And what is holding you back from being the one to take it to the show?

A Winchester rifle used long and hard for what it was made for and repaired along the way. A Winchester safe queen that never tasted rain or horse sweat, never got broke, never shot enough to get too hot to touch. Which is the real rifleman's rifle?

The sooner you realize it has nothing to do with history, stories or the make believe life of a rifle, and accept that it is all about the money the sooner it will all make sense.

Anyway, the rain finally put a damper on the Turkey and my Cousins wife was home and I got some pics of his Mothers Pre 64. With a critical eye, not as pristine as I thought, but still nice and used little.

Battue, That looks like a very nice one to me! But on another note I have yet to see a pre 64 mod 70 that I could not see some promise in. Stonewall Jackson was a 7th removed uncle, if I could get my hands on his gun I would load er up and shoot hell out of it! I could never make a NIB collector, I guess Im just wired wrong, I am happy for the guys that are able to do so. v best WinPoor

I'd really like to buy and use it since it essentially has been in the cabinet since 87. However, his reason for not wanting to let it go is understandable and he would like to pass it on to a grandson.

The originator of this thread to justify in his mind trashing modified rifles and those who collect them has pointed out that the title of this category is "Winchester Collectors". Collectors come in many differing persuasions, not all are purists who reject any rifle that is not 100% original. This is the only time an objection of this kind has been raised here in the time I have been a member of this forum. Perhaps the originator should try being a little more tolerant of others and their interests.

A part of me certainly understands this type thinking. Winchester made these rifles with the intention that they would be used and hunted with. The thought behind the design, craftmanship and quality of materials was years and years of reliable use.

Another part of me covets the safe queens and maintaining them as such. As I mentioned earlier, I don't view that part as the healthy part.

Question for those who follow the path to Winchester purism: If Edward Ulrich who engraved high end Winchesters did one-actually he did more than a few-at his home after retiring from Winchester would it be considered an original or a bastardization of an original?

If he upgraded an original standard grade rifle-again he did it more than once-at home after retiring from Winchester-is it another bastard child, and if not what grade is it?

These mods while done by a famous Winchester craftsman, and the work was the same as that done in house, were done off premise and on his own time. Heresy, only Winchesters completed in the factory are worthy of mention here. They should be in the Custom forum.

Well�According to some.

Battue - sad to say, such a rifle that you describe would bring less money than if Ulrich had done the work inside the factory.

Purism is one tough gig.

It does bother me that so much that is referred to as, "collectible" is really all about the money.

Which only proves the absurd constraints that some place on originality.

Same guy, same rifle, same chisels, same pattern, same quality, different work location, less value.

Logic defies the reasoning.

Money is the driver. It's not about preserving, history, etc. It's about I'm afraid to lose my investment.

Whether it is Winchesters or cars, the alteration changes the dynamic of the original. Anyone that collects cars doesn't want a chopped/lowered/modified car when he is looking at originals. There are lots of modified/customized cars that are owned and driven by people that like that sort of thing, but the closer to new and higher the condition, the more valuable and desirable the car.

Money is certainly a huge component in the decision to buy or sell and that isn't all bad. To think that someone doesn't like the concept of alteration is short sighted, is no more wrong than the other person that wants or likes modifications by himself or someone else.

I have plenty of Winchesters and though they aren't mint, I still look for the most condition and original finish that I can find because that is what I like. I also shoot them and hunt with them because I don't believe you have to own a nice gun, leave it in the safe and buy a stainless/plastic gun to shoot all your game with...

That'll show you BALLTOWNBOB. Now take your ball and go home.

Sadly money does play a key role in collectability but it isn't the only driver on why and what people collect. I have worked hard to find the pedigree and history of any old rifle I own and I do take them to gun shows to display and share the American history.

I don't really own these old guns, I am merely a steward for the time being until they go to someone else and it is always my hope that the next person will care for and preserve them so they can be enjoyed by other people in years to come...

Change the enthusiast to collector and I would agree. I took a beautifully stocked M70 with a Douglas 25-06 barrel into Briley's (the shotgun house) who also sell new and used rifles and they only offered me $275 for it. But there are a lot of enthusiastic people who want an action to rebarrel.

Kirk - what would be your opinion of the example Battue used - a rifle engraved by Ulrich but after he left full-time employment in the factory? Would you view this an an alteration?

Ulrich engraved is Ulrich engraved regardless of where it was done. I don't think that Michelangelo's work is any less appreciated in the Cathedrals of Milan than the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.

I also believe the guns earlier mentioned that were altered for Jack O'Connor were not violated the way we would consider what a member of the Campfire might do or have done. Celebrity does add a huge component to the question of customization or bastardization.

I had a friend that bought a Marlin 1881 in real nice condition, but he felt that he owned the gun and wanted it to look brand new. He took it to a capable gunsmith and had it totally refinished and in my estimation, ruined the gun. I couldn't stop him, but he took one of a few surviving high condition guns and wrecked it.

I would take a well used 1886 Winchester any day over a Doug Turnbull restoration as I have no use for those kind of guns. People still like them and people still buy them, I just don't have any interest in them...

Kirk - that is a sad tale about that '81 Marlin. I view it as ruined as well. I also see myself as the caretaker of my rifles. Someone owned them before me and someone will own them after me. I am one in a series of custodians. I feel a responsibility to care for them and not do something stupid to them. Hence, I don't adopt the philosophy of, "it' mine - I'll do whatever I want to it." I don't dispute someone's legal right in this regard, but I'll do my best to convince them otherwise. I find much of the time, pointing out that they are lowering the value works better than anything.

This is all semantics about the word "collectors." Define that and each one will have his answer.

There are different levels of collectors also. Sure I would love a M21 Grand American to use for grouse but the fact is I will never be able to afford one. I wouldn't mind though finding a nice M21 20ga that had been re-fisnished and had the chokes opened up that I could actually afford. Same goes for M70's/

Someone mentioned cars. Again I would love a mint '70 Camero SS but it would never leave the garage. I would actually enjoy a nice one that may not be original but that I could drive on occassion.

Cars and guns were meant to be used and enjoyed. I have both and still use them. The idea that nice things are left unused in the safe or garage is a myth...

Nice cars, I don't see any pristine all original model 70's there though...

Ever thought about Keystones?

I'm not much of a car guy but that Goat is beautiful!

Of course they are there and you knew it, but I will still take the bait. All are high condition low comb Model 70's. 257 Roberts, 270 Winchester 22 Hornet and 30-06. The swift hasn't been out enough to get the pictures...

Atta boy. I was expecting the table pic though . I always love the double buck pic though. That one is very cool!!

Hmmm. I only own bubba'd ones and enjoy them immensely.

Shrapnel: did you shoot the mulie in the eye?

And what's with the guy behind with a different buck in the same pic?

He has orange and you don't. ??

Questions. Questions.

M70FW, mfg in 1953, chambered in .308 WIN, 99% metal, but the varnish was flaking off - had a first class stock-smith strip the finish, restrike the checkering and rub a Tru-Oil finish on it - I like it!



M70FW, mfg in 1963, left the factory with a sloppy 30-06 SPRG chamber (early 1960's there was some bad fit and finish coming out of New Haven) - primers of factory ammo would back out upon firing. I thought about taking one thread off the barrel, but decided to make it a .270 WIN - Douglas barrel - I like it.



M70, mfg in 1961, chambered in 30-06 SPRG, had a plastic buttplate. When I was young and dumb I hunted way up in trees, sitting on little pieces of plywood I had nailed in anyway I could make them work. I sat and leaned against the truck - my rifle leaned against my shoulder with the plastic buttplate sitting on the plywood - I had to be careful that it wouldn't slip and fall - so I had a rubber pad installed in lieu of the buttplate - I still like it.



Not a M70, but a nice Winchester old shotgun made around 1937; locks tight, but was 60% blue when I got it - Stu Wright made it look new for me - I like it!

Here is another picture. My son and I shot these 2 bucks about 20 yards apart. I took the orange off for the picture. I did shoot the buck through the back of the head and it came out his eye...

Pre '64 M 70 .300 H&H with a Leupold 6x scope.

Heretofore I was reluctant to post this pre-64 Model 70, because it started out as a 270 Winchester then reworked into a 7x57 by a Wisconsin master metalsmith, Emil Koshollek.

Thanks to all for the reinforcement that this forum is for all Winchester enthusiasts.

Not sure if it's been over cleaned, but it has not been refinished or modified in any way - so it should Kosher for the "Winchester Collectors� forum

Think this baby could bring down a big buck?

Got a factory letter on it? Could be humped up

Let me add, even without a letter it would make a fine hunter. Up to medium sized deer I would say.

And, don't let anyway talk you into sending it to Turnbull. It is fine as it sits.

And no, I'm not working on my post count. I just don't think real fast. This is why I like the internet. In real life people have left the room by the time I think of what to day.

I think it is a fantastic Stillson wrench that will bring more money than any Rigid I have ever seen. Nice find and thanks for posting! very best WinPoor

Everyone of your guns are something to be mighty proud of BUT that Douglas barrel 270 is milky tits! Wow what nice wood, every Douglas barrel I have owned shot better than me as well! very best, keep the photos coming....WinPoor

BIG thumbs up on those beautiful rifles and shotgun. VERY NICE buddy!!!!

Very classy 7x57. I really like that one...

Thanks gents!

Nice wood, Ed!

Everyone has seen my .30-06 Featherweight. Bought for $700 because of the recoil pad addition.

Odessa,

Nice collection you have. Those two FWTs are really nice.

And glad all you heathens post your misfits here. Gives me so many ideas beyond boring original.

Me, too. Looks like ol' balltown has moved on to rub shoulders with a higher class group.

He will need good luck finding that.

Anyway, I'm sure the majority will have no problems with him joining in if he chooses to do so.

Battue: no doubt he would be welcome. He'd likely be more welcome if he dismounted from his high horse

Users have been personalizing firearms since they were touching them off with a wick. It is the nature of the beast.

I remember reading about a Winchester that went for around $500,000. From shell casings housed at the Smithsonian, it was authenticated to have been used by an Indian at the Battle of the Little Big Horn. He had pounded a bunch of tacks into the stock. I liked his style and it looked pretty cool from the pics.

I think enthusiasm is a very good thing. If someone else feels enthusiastic about their gun, I am all for them. Rifles mean a lot to me. They have since I was a small boy. As a hunter, shooter, collector... it's not difficult for me to relate to someone else's excitement about their rifle. The rifles in themselves, as objects mean nothing. It's the attachments we have to them, the way we use them, their history and so on. In that vein, safe queens are at the dull end of the continuum. Still, if you live within ten miles of me and call me up and want me to look at your NIB pre-64 M70 Super Grade Carbine in 9mm with the hang tags and the original receipt... I think I can muster up the energy to come over and take a glance at it

Me being the odd ball, but rarity in and of itself wouldn't make me interested in that particular example. Now the one carried by that Indian fellow? I would have little hesitation in going much further to see.

I just said I'd be willing to glance at it

But yes, seeing that 1876 Winchester would be a big treat. My own preference is for rifles built from the 1870's through the early 1900's.

Yeas ago in Taos, MN there was a display that supposedly was of one of Jim Bridgers last Hawkins and a saddle he used. Often wondered how they knew.

The rifle looked to be in excellent shape. Would like to carry that just one day on a hunt.
In fact, any original Hawkin would be a great day.

I prefer to own guns I don't have to make excuses for...nor come up with all the worn-out reasons as to why I have them like so many of you always seem to point out....any way you spin it some of the junk guns people like to talk up, even post pictures of, are still just that-junk...

Why not focus, instead, on getting the forum back on track toward Collector examples of Winchesters instead of "personalized" examples of what once were nice guns?

I'm sure you are familiar with the old line re junk and treasure. Found this one a few years back and it was a treasure. I.E. original stock, hardly used in years, few disparaging marks, etc, etc. You get it.

Promptly turned it into a piece of usable junk that did what it was made to do.

First order of business was to remove this. For now anyway; Odessa has me thinking I may have it spruced up a little. You know a nice dull polyurethane oil duplication that will hold up. Like it should have been done originally, but was of such poor quality and application that it never had a chance.

Have a nice red W correct pad installed. That plate sometimes slides on the shoulder under recoil, and can mess with a follow up shot if need. Ok for the times, but there are better ways to do things now.

Bedding? Free float or Neutral full length? Hmmm, I'm leaning to NFL, you have any suggestions?

Does practical ever have it place? Just asking, don't take offense.



Then we junked it up. Cover your eyes, cover your eyes!!!! Knew you couldn't.




Then quickly discovered it would do this pretty much on the first try. Certainly not a campfire .5 all day rifle, but I figured that juuuuust maybe I could make it work.




Soooo, Out it went into the real world for three seasons. Two of them below.





Little wet and there is probably some hair in the magazine, but it's a piece of _ _ _ _. More than a few words will fit, so please feel free to grade its current status within the context of your extensive knowledge and acknowledged respect of all things Winchester. Doubt if you can hurt my feelings, so don't hold back





Anyway, welcome back and would really like to see some pics of your pristine examples in the field on the hunt. You know something along the lines of Shraps posts. That's some really good stuff so don't be shy. We're a pretty loose group of Winchester followers and I'm thinking that is not about to change.


Addition: After looking at this last pic, I'm leaving it as is. Damn nice piece of junk. Perhaps some Lakota or Cheyenne is looking down and saying "I like his style."

Well, looks like that ain't gonna happen. You this pompous in person, too?

Balltownbob, Dam if the only thing you and I agree on is the fact that' life is to short to smoke cheap cigars'!
You act like your collection would put Mr Roger Rules' collection on the back row. Model 70's are like cattle, there is a place for each and everyone, not all can be the pretty girls 'show calf'.
So welcome to the 'real world' where we can all be proud of whatever we have to share here. I still get tickled when I see a super nice transition in great shape with a GD compass stuck in the comb! very best WinPoor

I enjoy the Winchester Collector category just the way it is, a place where the majority of posters tolerate the diversity of interests in collecting all models of Winchester firearms. Newbies were encouraged by the old hands and post count was irrelevant. Then along comes an individual to muck things up, calling a newbie a troll because of post count while acting like a troll himself. Kinda hypocritical don't ya think?

These are 50+ year old rifles. They don't all remain in mint condition.

We all need to lighten up, It may be this guys 'time of the month' or he may be 'going thru the change' LOL....Its all good very best winpoor

I can't see for the life of me understand why there isn't room for everyone who wants to be here? When you log-in, just don't click on those threads that are not of interest. For example, my post about the RIA pre-64's - in the title of the thread I indicated they were, "reblued." If someone has no interest in reblued rifles why give that thread a second thought? When I come here I don't open every thread - and I'm not angry because there are threads here that don't seem relevant to me.

There is room and it will remain so. Have fun, life's to short not to.... Hmmmmm???? Oh, never mind.

There is room for you all in my world - I just like old rifles and shotguns - if it is original and pristine then that is cool and I want to look it over. On the other hand, if someone changed out the butt plate for a recoil pad or had the bolt jewelled then that is fine with me too - original Winchester's were USED by the men who bought them, just like we do with them today. I bought a brand new, 20 year old, Browning Auto-5 Magnum Twelve a couple of years ago to duck and goose hunt with - I KNOW I "lost value" by taking it out of the box and hunting with it - hell, my childern can worry about that at the estate sale - I buy them to use and enjoy. Odessa

Actually the three friends I have would tell you I am not at all pompous....

My only point is this Forum's title has the word Collector in it...much of the stuff posted has nothing to do with collector guns...sorry I stepped on so many toes...that was not my intent...

And Mr. Battue: I usually don't take pics of me and dead animals....my journal does quite well reminding me of my days afield...if you'd like to see my Winchester accumulation I'd be happy to have you stop by at my place in Forest County. Drop me a line to make sure I'm going to be around...

Based on some level of experience, I think in the strictest sense, the definition of the term, "collector" could be, "path to unhappiness." When you are a collector, your focus is on finding something wrong with something. Someone hands you a piece (or posts a picture) the first thing you automatically do is look for flaws. Believe me, I've experienced my share of this mentality, and continue to do so to some degree. Perfectionism and collector easily go hand in hand. People who are perfectionists are not known for their happiness either.

I've noticed the majority of the guys around here tend to look for the positives in a rifle. The fact that they can feel enthused about something with imperfections, flaws or, "character" makes me want to come back

I like your post boltman, but I think it's not just "feeling enthused about something with imperfections", it's more like what battue said about making something a little better. We all know the stocks (finish and checkering) on the pre 64's could have been better coming out of the factory. Heck, throw a McMillan on one like I did my pristine 270 fwt and call it a day. Glass bed them so they shoot lights out too. Life's too short to shoot/hunt a rifle that doesn't drive tacks and look good doing it . Hell, I wouldn't own a magnum pre 64 that wasn't properly glass bedded just because they are known for splitting stocks. Some things are detrimental to a collectors eyes, but if you are going to use them, certain things need to be done to make them better...Why do you think they started putting cross bolts in the 375's and 458's...

No problem, but pics are an accepted medium on the fire for a variety of reasons. Yet many don't post them and seem to enjoy their time here.

I'm up your way Grouse hunting often, but will probably not bother you.

Anyway, I'm would think perhaps you may be familiar with the Winchester Collectors Association. Seems to be more in line with what you find interesting. If you are not familiar with the WCA it may be a more productive use of your time; instead of engaging in a crusade to change us here.

Here is the WCA link if by chance you are not familiar with it. http://winchestercollector.org

They seem to have it all and will probably spend a little time looking around there myself.

However, don't ever hesitate to join in if you have something interesting. Makes no difference if it collector quality or not. These are Winchester guys to the core and they would like to see it.

I agree Battue.

+1

Excellent points.

How about the totally rusted up pre-64 I got from a dumbfu-k from Oregon that was totally useless for anything?, he said it shot great before I bought it.

Happy to report today it's been rerifled and rechambered to 338-06 and now sits in a rimrock syn stock with new bead blasted steel in a matte black cerakote finish.

With it's 1.75-6 Leupold in Leupold dual dovetail B&R's it weighs a good bit less than 8 lbs all up and fires 250 gr Swift-A-Frames into just over half inch groups at 100 yards.

Gunner

Trash it Gunner,matter of fact I'll take off your hand for $10.00.