Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Experiments versus Experience... A Philosophy Thread

Yep! It's funny to watch Ringman and Fireball chase their tails.

Some of you out there might be interested in reading Mark Taylor's; The History of the Bible. It explains much and puts in context some of the prevailing wisdom espoused here on this thread. It's also a good read for the historical perspective if one enjoys history for its own intrinsic value. jus sayin and ymmv.

Really? Ted Bundy had one? Gacey? Etc etc?

That said, I do think that non-believers (that aren't psychopaths) do have a conscience. Just as a I believe many believers do not. Believers are just hoping for some kind of cosmic reward.

Were it proven that there is no God tomorrow, without any doubt, it's the believers I'd be worried about. No reward and no punishment in afterlife? Many believers would fall into the "Might as well screw my daughter and kill my neighbor" mindset.

My dick had very little conscience and caused me some heartaches.

Before he was executed, Bundy accepted Jesus as his savior and today he's in heaven. Does God forgive murderers? He sure does. Two of the best known men in the Bible were murderers, King David and the apostle Paul. Both repented and both were saved and went on to do great things for the Lord. There's NO sin save one that Jesus won't forgive (that one isn't the issue here). No one is too far gone to be saved but it takes repentance and accepting Jesus as Lord.

I would not believe if I had not experienced what I have personally.
Doubt I could ever correctly describe it, so will not even attempt to.
One would need to experience themselves to begin grasp and understand.

That's magic, and really doesn't represent God, though some christians are confused themselves.

Kent

"God did not hide "the proof of His existence in the last place a "scientist" will look....... right inside himself" only. It is also obvious around us. He tells us in Romans 1:18ff, the,
"unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them;"

You claim to disagree with my statement, then offer a bible verse that agrees with it.

And, Yeah, I'm a Christian. There's even evidence of it in my life........... I never had it so good. This Christian life is the only easy life I've ever known.

There are passages in your bible that claim that's the way it's supposed to be and some that claim I'm supposed to be suffering all sorts of trials and tribulations if I'm REALLY a Christian.

I don't concern myself with either viewpoint.

People like you and Ringworm always inject the bible into these threads because you are incapable of forming a philosophical thought. The bible is YOUR strawman.

And I predicted this in my O.P.

If you go back and read my whole post you will see I agreed with you about "right inside himself" and added the word "only". But you are so angry that you can't see the big picture.

Tell us what makes a Christian, if you don't mind. You might have some incite many here could use.

Pretty close I think.


Proof in the sense of belief. Philosophically there can be no proof (see Aquinas, et al. regarding Ethics and free will). Even Mother Theresa had times of doubt. Nothing inherently wrong with that, it means you're asking questions and thinking critically. Just so you keep whacking at it and don't quit in the doubting mindset.

Mmmm, the concept of conscience is not so easy. For a cheap example dogs have a conscience of sorts. They obey the law of the pack, all those social things dogs do to get along. Instinctive to do so, that is to defer to what is necessary to remain in the pack (and alive). Why should people be devoid of all instinct? We 1) are loathe to consider it and 2) have the ability to choose to act otherwise.

I don't know where you get the idea that I'm "angry". It gets frustrating trying to converse with you when you offer NOTHING but bible verses.

A "Christian" is a person who has a personal relationship with the Risen Jesus. [ that little dot is a PERIOD ]

I doubt that there are humans born without a conscience. But I suspect if it's not exercised it can atrophy to the point of being practically non-existent.

Yeah... those guys who "believe" because they are afraid not to believe are an unknown quantity. I'm dubious of them, too.

'" 7Jesus said to him, "On the other hand, it is written, 'YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.'"

I don't want to go to heaven if Gacey and Bundy are there hanging out.
Fk that they might relapse.
Or is it one of those things where once your saved you never do anything wrong again?
There's lots of prior saved people killing others everday.
Do you lose free will once your in heaven?
So if a murder accepts Christ, dies, goes to heaven and retains free will...then he wants to murder does he get bumped down to hell?

Curdog, old friend, glad to see you could join us tonight.

The arts of Logic and Rhetoric are largely lost upon this generation, be the practitioner Theist, Atheist, or Anti-theist. I agree that using the Bible to prove the Bible is not an effective technique. The book of Genesis is a real gift for the Anti-theist because it effectively disproves the Christian God if defined in certain way, however, it just disproves the Christian God, and does not disprove any of the other thousand creation myths.

Yes, science is about observation evidence, and predictions. , and the controlled experiment is one of it's tools.

As for non-laboratory occurrences, we don't discount them, we just want to know how you differentiate it from random chance. If prayer actually worked, we should be able to measure the difference in outcomes, be it medical, wages, crop success, marriages, etc. As an economist, I tell you it would be simple. Take a given event where we can record the number and type of people who prayed for a given outcome, collect a large enough data set, plug the numbers into a good statistics program, an see how much, and what type of prayer by folks who go to which church, how many times a year, and tithe what percent, for the result to be a long happy marriage. Not only that, if it worked, I would be one of the person's creating that data and selling it so people could invest their time and efforts in prayer and save their money. If it worked, I would convert more people the Billy Graham..

But it doesn't, and when the Pro-religious Templeton Foundation actually did a double bind study on the effect of prayer on medical patients, there was no effect, and when the patients knew they were being prayed for, the medical outcomes were actually slightly worse.

But back to your point. Most of what you call experience, is not verifiable. If Jesus came to me tomorrow in my backyard, how could I ever verify it? Unless he gave me some special piece of information with predictive power that could not have originated from this world, you couldn't. It's an extraordinary claim, I would expect you require extraordinary evidence. The problem isn't that you weren't there, it THAT I HAVE NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THE CLAIM.

In contrast, if a University Professor does an experiment involving rats, I can go to the University, see the rats, talk with the 3 dozen Grad students who did all the actual work, taking all the measurements, participate in the peer review, read the published article, and see how many times the experiment has been duplicated.

The level of proof needs to be consistent with the level of the claims. If the professor is claiming he's created cold fusion with rats, it's going to take some serious convincing....

As for the conscious being a evidence for a supernatural creator being, you have to do more then just assert it. You need to provide evidence. What you call the conscious, is just a through process within the brain, and our brains are just physical matter and electrical impulses contained within our body...so how do you make the leap from a thought process to a God?

The real problem with your argument is the variations within conscious's. All you have to do is look at the member of ISIS and some of the other monsters mentioned within this thread to realize that the proposition that each person received their conscious from God is to suggest a very imperfect God.

One can't expect words like "believe", and "proof" to retain their exact meaning when discussing the Supernatural.

For those people who have experienced an encounter with the Supreme Being, it becomes THE GREAT FACT of their lives. It is the one thing that they KNOW, in a way that is peculiar to that event.

Conscience..... the intrinsic ability to feel shame or guilt.

Not conscious.

Gotta go to meeting. Back later.

Many years ago, BC Brian came down to CATC once, to educate us. I put essentially the same premise to him: how can you go out into the magnificence and wonders of nature and not see your Creator all around you? Or something to that effect. I don't believe he gave me an answer other than his sudden departure, perhaps. I didn't want him to leave:only to think, without prejudice.