First off... a couple of observations :

Christians are not well positioned to defend Christianity if they can't first defend the existence of a Supreme Being who remains interested in His Creation. Citing Bible verses does NOTHING toward that end.

Atheists and Agnostics too often take the easy way out in these discussions by arguing as if debunking the book of Genesis in particular, and the Bible in general, is all that is required to discount a Supreme Being of the type mentioned above. That demonstrates a lack of original thinking as far as I'm concerned.

Now...... to the question in my mind.

Science is all about observation. Being able to observe the results of controlled experiments and then draw conclusions from them is basic science as I understand the term.

Down thru the ages, we have accounts of humans EXPERIENCING firsthand some evidence of a Supreme Being who has inserted Himself into His Creation. These experiences are the type that one would not expect to be duplicated. [Should the blind man be struck blind again so that his sight could be restored a second time?]

But the non-believer discounts these experiences because he didn't personally observe them, all the while citing the results of "scientific experiments" which he didn't personally observe. The fact that hundreds, or thousands, of different rats were used in some of these experiments poses no problem for him. In fact... the more rats that responded the same way, the more credibility the "experiment" has in the scientific view.

But the REAL kicker is this:

Every non-believer has a conscience. Attempts to explain this phenomenon apart from a Divine Creator are actually ludicrous, even from the standpoint of Science.

Claiming that it is a product of evolution requires -usually- an appeal to the mechanism of "enlightened self-interest". Like ALL claims as to evolution being an explanation for OUR genesis, it requires HUGE chunks of TIME to even merit consideration.

And Science is still learning just how little is really known about TIME. But they "borrow" it, or "create" it just like Obama does money.

So... The Creator hid the proof of His existence in the last place a "scientist" will look....... right inside himself.

Blessed are they who have not seen & yet believe.

Youre wrong Cur, they dont believe its a conscience, because they didnt actually see it.

I have a single piece of glitter on a plate under glass.
I ask all believers in ANY god to pray that he levitates it 1mm.
I'll wait.

"And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive." (Matthew 21:22)

Pretty good rant, Cur.
But I must start at the beginning before addressing any or all else.

If speaking the Word does nothing, is of no consequense, produces no results, and exists eternally as pointless then why the hell would our Father God Creator bother to to SAY it in the first place ?

Let alone instruct us keep continually flowing from our mouths...

It lives.
It goes on eternal.
It never returns void.
It always accomplishes that which it eas spoken to do.

It can NEVER fail.

To say the Word of God has no power is to bring God Himself to no effect.

Well, that's religion's job.
Specifically men 's religious traditions.
I'll have no part of that.

Belief is acceptance.
Disbelief is rejection.
It's all just a simple matter of choice.

So easy even a child could do it...


.

Not much of an original thinker, huh?

"Atheists and Agnostics too often take the easy way out in these discussions by arguing as if debunking the book of Genesis in particular, and the Bible in general, is all that is required to discount a Supreme Being of the type mentioned above. That demonstrates a lack of original thinking as far as I'm concerned."

You're just Ringman's opposite number.

There's the thing Archerhunter, you believe the Bible is Gods word. That's a belief, and not everyone shares it. It doesn't mean they don't believe in God, just maybe not exactly like you do. I think that's what Curdog is saying, that he best evidence may not be something physical that you can put your finger on and say "there it is".

Where in the hell is Gus when you need him?

More original than the plagiarist that wrote your comicbook.

Actually, I'm so original there's of even a religion that represents my belief. No church, preacher, congregation.
No one to bow to, impress, worship.
No candels to light, beads to swirl, songs to sing.
I'm not asked to bike the neighborhood, blow myself up or hate people.
I don't have any special uniform, jewelry, rugs, haircut or body mutilation requirement.
But I know...KNOW that this world isn't all there is.

The irony is that as man becomes more "intelligent" he has a harder time seeing the self evident presence of God.

One would think that as a group of people that spend a goodly amount of time in nature that coming across something like this



and concluding, yeah it just happened that way would be the last conclusion one would reach.

God won't play your stupid games. He gave you ample evidence of His existence but you've rejected it. That's your loss.

Believe as you will.But please do not be too quick to judge those of us who decide to keep their epiphanies to themselves.

A God incapable of revealing himself apart from a bunch of written words ain't fit to be called God.

A man earnestly seeking the Creator of all that is will wind up at the bible.

But it's not much of a starting place.

If a man becomes convinced intellectually that Jesus of Nazareth IS the Creator God, then another bunch of written words could later convince him of the opposite.

Christ is to be experienced.... not just studied.

We most often convict our own selves out of our own mouths. Ain't nothing gets a duck in terminal, eternal trouble but his beak.

Good things come to those that wait....

Ole Ringworm got hung up for 3 days staring at an orange juice can cause it said "Concentrate". Twas a rumor but a strong one.

You forgot "anyone know for SURE "

LoL

Anyway, it doesn't matter what I believe, only what you do.

I though I had found Jesus once, but it was Miguel wearing jesus's jacket.

curdog4570,

You are fascinating. I think you have claimed to be a Christian and yet you exalt your opinion above God's Word. Jesus says in Luke 16:30-31

"But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

By faith the believer accepts Genesis. By faith the unbeliever rejects Genesis. Neither was there to observe God call into existence this time, space, material continuum. Some choose to reject science and go with philosophy by choose to believe everything came from nothing and claim, erroneously they are using science.

God did not hide "the proof of His existence in the last place a "scientist" will look....... right inside himself" only. It is also obvious around us. He tells us in Romans 1:18ff, the,
"unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." A real scientist actually tests, observes and verifies the repeatability of his claim.

There is a difference between "knowing" something is true, and "believing" something is true.

Yep! It's funny to watch Ringman and Fireball chase their tails.

Some of you out there might be interested in reading Mark Taylor's; The History of the Bible. It explains much and puts in context some of the prevailing wisdom espoused here on this thread. It's also a good read for the historical perspective if one enjoys history for its own intrinsic value. jus sayin and ymmv.

Really? Ted Bundy had one? Gacey? Etc etc?

That said, I do think that non-believers (that aren't psychopaths) do have a conscience. Just as a I believe many believers do not. Believers are just hoping for some kind of cosmic reward.

Were it proven that there is no God tomorrow, without any doubt, it's the believers I'd be worried about. No reward and no punishment in afterlife? Many believers would fall into the "Might as well screw my daughter and kill my neighbor" mindset.

My dick had very little conscience and caused me some heartaches.

Before he was executed, Bundy accepted Jesus as his savior and today he's in heaven. Does God forgive murderers? He sure does. Two of the best known men in the Bible were murderers, King David and the apostle Paul. Both repented and both were saved and went on to do great things for the Lord. There's NO sin save one that Jesus won't forgive (that one isn't the issue here). No one is too far gone to be saved but it takes repentance and accepting Jesus as Lord.

I would not believe if I had not experienced what I have personally.
Doubt I could ever correctly describe it, so will not even attempt to.
One would need to experience themselves to begin grasp and understand.

That's magic, and really doesn't represent God, though some christians are confused themselves.

Kent

"God did not hide "the proof of His existence in the last place a "scientist" will look....... right inside himself" only. It is also obvious around us. He tells us in Romans 1:18ff, the,
"unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them;"

You claim to disagree with my statement, then offer a bible verse that agrees with it.

And, Yeah, I'm a Christian. There's even evidence of it in my life........... I never had it so good. This Christian life is the only easy life I've ever known.

There are passages in your bible that claim that's the way it's supposed to be and some that claim I'm supposed to be suffering all sorts of trials and tribulations if I'm REALLY a Christian.

I don't concern myself with either viewpoint.

People like you and Ringworm always inject the bible into these threads because you are incapable of forming a philosophical thought. The bible is YOUR strawman.

And I predicted this in my O.P.

If you go back and read my whole post you will see I agreed with you about "right inside himself" and added the word "only". But you are so angry that you can't see the big picture.

Tell us what makes a Christian, if you don't mind. You might have some incite many here could use.

Pretty close I think.


Proof in the sense of belief. Philosophically there can be no proof (see Aquinas, et al. regarding Ethics and free will). Even Mother Theresa had times of doubt. Nothing inherently wrong with that, it means you're asking questions and thinking critically. Just so you keep whacking at it and don't quit in the doubting mindset.

Mmmm, the concept of conscience is not so easy. For a cheap example dogs have a conscience of sorts. They obey the law of the pack, all those social things dogs do to get along. Instinctive to do so, that is to defer to what is necessary to remain in the pack (and alive). Why should people be devoid of all instinct? We 1) are loathe to consider it and 2) have the ability to choose to act otherwise.

I don't know where you get the idea that I'm "angry". It gets frustrating trying to converse with you when you offer NOTHING but bible verses.

A "Christian" is a person who has a personal relationship with the Risen Jesus. [ that little dot is a PERIOD ]

I doubt that there are humans born without a conscience. But I suspect if it's not exercised it can atrophy to the point of being practically non-existent.

Yeah... those guys who "believe" because they are afraid not to believe are an unknown quantity. I'm dubious of them, too.

'" 7Jesus said to him, "On the other hand, it is written, 'YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.'"

I don't want to go to heaven if Gacey and Bundy are there hanging out.
Fk that they might relapse.
Or is it one of those things where once your saved you never do anything wrong again?
There's lots of prior saved people killing others everday.
Do you lose free will once your in heaven?
So if a murder accepts Christ, dies, goes to heaven and retains free will...then he wants to murder does he get bumped down to hell?

Curdog, old friend, glad to see you could join us tonight.

The arts of Logic and Rhetoric are largely lost upon this generation, be the practitioner Theist, Atheist, or Anti-theist. I agree that using the Bible to prove the Bible is not an effective technique. The book of Genesis is a real gift for the Anti-theist because it effectively disproves the Christian God if defined in certain way, however, it just disproves the Christian God, and does not disprove any of the other thousand creation myths.

Yes, science is about observation evidence, and predictions. , and the controlled experiment is one of it's tools.

As for non-laboratory occurrences, we don't discount them, we just want to know how you differentiate it from random chance. If prayer actually worked, we should be able to measure the difference in outcomes, be it medical, wages, crop success, marriages, etc. As an economist, I tell you it would be simple. Take a given event where we can record the number and type of people who prayed for a given outcome, collect a large enough data set, plug the numbers into a good statistics program, an see how much, and what type of prayer by folks who go to which church, how many times a year, and tithe what percent, for the result to be a long happy marriage. Not only that, if it worked, I would be one of the person's creating that data and selling it so people could invest their time and efforts in prayer and save their money. If it worked, I would convert more people the Billy Graham..

But it doesn't, and when the Pro-religious Templeton Foundation actually did a double bind study on the effect of prayer on medical patients, there was no effect, and when the patients knew they were being prayed for, the medical outcomes were actually slightly worse.

But back to your point. Most of what you call experience, is not verifiable. If Jesus came to me tomorrow in my backyard, how could I ever verify it? Unless he gave me some special piece of information with predictive power that could not have originated from this world, you couldn't. It's an extraordinary claim, I would expect you require extraordinary evidence. The problem isn't that you weren't there, it THAT I HAVE NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THE CLAIM.

In contrast, if a University Professor does an experiment involving rats, I can go to the University, see the rats, talk with the 3 dozen Grad students who did all the actual work, taking all the measurements, participate in the peer review, read the published article, and see how many times the experiment has been duplicated.

The level of proof needs to be consistent with the level of the claims. If the professor is claiming he's created cold fusion with rats, it's going to take some serious convincing....

As for the conscious being a evidence for a supernatural creator being, you have to do more then just assert it. You need to provide evidence. What you call the conscious, is just a through process within the brain, and our brains are just physical matter and electrical impulses contained within our body...so how do you make the leap from a thought process to a God?

The real problem with your argument is the variations within conscious's. All you have to do is look at the member of ISIS and some of the other monsters mentioned within this thread to realize that the proposition that each person received their conscious from God is to suggest a very imperfect God.

One can't expect words like "believe", and "proof" to retain their exact meaning when discussing the Supernatural.

For those people who have experienced an encounter with the Supreme Being, it becomes THE GREAT FACT of their lives. It is the one thing that they KNOW, in a way that is peculiar to that event.

Conscience..... the intrinsic ability to feel shame or guilt.

Not conscious.

Gotta go to meeting. Back later.

Many years ago, BC Brian came down to CATC once, to educate us. I put essentially the same premise to him: how can you go out into the magnificence and wonders of nature and not see your Creator all around you? Or something to that effect. I don't believe he gave me an answer other than his sudden departure, perhaps. I didn't want him to leave:only to think, without prejudice.

I don't want to go to heaven if Gacey and Bundy are there hanging out.
Fk that they might relapse.
Or is it one of those things where once your saved you never do anything wrong again?
There's lots of prior saved people killing others everday.
Do you lose free will once your in heaven?
So if a murder accepts Christ, dies, goes to heaven and retains free will...then he wants to murder does he get bumped down to hell?

Youre idea of repentance doesnt jive with His. His results from being reborn, not tricking Him into believing he was reborn.

Those thrown into the hell of fire dont have a chance to relapse. Their last problem will be that they lapsed.

So are you saying that if a murder accepts Christ he is not forgiven?

There would be no point in doing so. If the speck was levitated, expanded, and turned into a beautiful and powerful unicorn, you would still deny the One God of all eternity. To do otherwise would be to deny the god you have created for yourself. You have hardened you heart with a peculiar religion for reasons only known to you, my friend, and it will take more than levitation or other spectacles, however grand, to penetrate that fortress and tear down the idol you deem sacred.

im saying those thrown into the lake of fire are gone forever. They are dead where their spirit could have lived forever. But, i wont discount the possibility that their spirit could live in misery for eternity and i am open for biblical instruction, as it is His message for me.

Lack of agreement on assumptions (definitions) leads so many arguments astray. I'd say that belief is that which cannot be conformed to the scientific method (shorthand for straight Philosophy). So if the supernatural is subject to proof (scientific method) it is no longer "supernatural" by definition.


A fact in the sense of belief as it cannot be demonstrated to others, the repeatability part of the scientific method. I didn't read the miracles thread but that's one place where you run up against this. Most of us get little glimpses of, "Well, maybe..." Not so many struck off our horse by a blue bolt. Fortunately?

That's about what I thought.
Your forgiven, your not.
You go to heaven, you go to hell.

Which is it?
Can wrongdoers be saved?
Then they can go to heaven.
Do they lose their free will in heaven?
If so then they lose what makes us human.
So, can they get kicked out of heaven?
But people in hell can't change their minds and be saved and get out?

Don't know that you could which kinda makes it fascinating. Don't forget to quote Arther C. Clarke's third law, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

I like his first law better, "When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."

Gene opined there is likely no one born without a conscious. I'm sure he's right. But there is not an attribute created in men that cannot be overcome and supplanted, primarily by the lethal twins of fear and hatred. That's true with such as nazi's or isis and also as it is for those who fear and hate faith and those who hold to it.

For a man to speak of an imperfect god when that man knows not God, illuminates his intent as well as his master.

Walt Disney had a better grasp on morality than the Christian God.

Interesting. Wrongdoers can be saved if we truly repent...recognize our wrong acts, confess them to God, and turn our lives from that behavior and live for God. Then yes, we go to heaven. Those choices...free will...have to made during our physical lives. Heaven is a place where the temptation to fill our lives with ungodly things does not exist. So, no need to expel anyone. Unrepented choices made during physical life that result in spending eternity in hell can no longer be changed. Simple really.

Don't test god. Well, unless your name is Gideon or it comes to giving away your money.


Judges 6:36-40New Living Translation (NLT)

36 Then Gideon said to God, “If you are truly going to use me to rescue Israel as you promised, 37 prove it to me in this way. I will put a wool fleece on the threshing floor tonight. If the fleece is wet with dew in the morning but the ground is dry, then I will know that you are going to help me rescue Israel as you promised.” 38 And that is just what happened. When Gideon got up early the next morning, he squeezed the fleece and wrung out a whole bowlful of water.

39 Then Gideon said to God, “Please don’t be angry with me, but let me make one more request. Let me use the fleece for one more test. This time let the fleece remain dry while the ground around it is wet with dew.” 40 So that night God did as Gideon asked. The fleece was dry in the morning, but the ground was covered with dew.

Well said Sir.

Headed to Old Navy...I got to try that one out.

Reason doesn't apply to atheists; it only seems to keep their belief system intact. Notice they will continually argue in circles, as we are currently seeing in these threads. Notice the atheist's method is circular arguments, and as evidenced, they are full of hot air (better get used to it).

They can't prove or disprove anything and continue to close their eyes and stiffen their necks (pity the ignorant fools). They have a comeback for everything, and it's a game to them. They try to be knowledgeable and intellectual, not realizing God is omnipresent, unchanging, and who has all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge (Colossians 2:3). Atheists use God's laws of logic but at the same time deny God made the laws possible.

Pity the fools...

Chase my tail? That's funny.

The God-haters here go to tremendous lengths to stir the christians pot, to puff themselves up. Christians simply share what we've been given, take it or leave it. Don't want it, easy, don't take it.

Christians simply quoting the Bible drives a non-believer right over the top, like it did 4ager awhile back. If the conviction in your heart in just hearing the Word is more than you can bear, you probably better seriously analyze that!

After all, to you it should be just mumbo jumbo gibberish about an irrelevant non-existent spiritual being. Why would you get so worked up if God is not really God? Do you get worked up trying to argue against the existence of unicorns too? LOL.

If I believed in unicorns would you lay awake at night compiling data and statistics to prove me wrong? Would you cite scientific studies by prestigious universities showing the folly of my belief? Would you argue or would you simply say, "Wow, you're off your rocker", and move on?

That's what would be so stinking funny if it weren't so darned sad, the desperation of the God-haters to argue against God. Who are you trying to convince? Me or yourself?? Like the kid caught in a lie trying desperately to convince dad he didn't do it. Even he wants to believe it's true, but it don't make it so.



What a fine compliment you paid me when you sought to cut me down. I am so glad to be known as an outspoken believer here.

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Romans 8:28

Heard an account on the radio today by the wife of the imprisoned ex-muslim christian Iranian pastor. Seems the muzzies had them both (husband and wife) at gunpoint. "Denounce your God and return to Islam or die today!" They declined to denounce Jesus, and Saeed (husband now in prison) gave his testimony of salvation instead. Seems one muzzy started crying right on the spot and accepted Christ.

I'm sure it would have been just as effective to spin a tale about a Walt Disney movie or tell them what a nice couple you are and that you deserved to live. <Sarcasm font off>

Yeah, God's not real. Got it.

How does one explain the miracle of a totally transformed life?

Awwww shoot, he just decided to go with the other side. I'm sure Saeed was very persuasive there on his knees a millisecond from death.

Then you concede there is no free will in Heaven.

Show me where an doubter has used circular reasoning in this thread?

The Christian God is unchanging?
Really?
I guess you've never compared are contrasted the Gods of the Old and New Testaments.

Fireball,

I'm against all supernatural believes that cause a person to make wrong decisions that are determent to themselves or others. Unicorns, faeries, Aliens that visit them in the night, Boogie Man, Man Made Global Warming, it doesn't matter.

However in this country, the most common supernatural misbeief is one in the Christian God

antelope_sniper,



You continue to bring up a straw man god. The God of the Old Testament is the God of the New Testament. You reject the Scripture That tells of Hell and eternal punishment in the New Testament. You don't accept the New Testament Scripture where a man and his wife were killed by God for lying to God. You reject the Scripture Which informs us that Jesus is returning with His holy angles dealing out retribution to two groups of people: Those who do not know God and those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It doesn't sound fair to deal out the same retribution to those who do not know God as to those who don't obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, from my point of view. At least one group knows about Him by name. But then I don't see God as the omni-beneficial that you tried to bring up at least once.

Recently someone asked me if I know the Lord God. I told him that very morning I listened to Joshua on the CD player. General Joshua lead his army in the defeat of Jericho. God said everything, I mean everything in the city was a sacrifice to the Lord: The men, women, children, their pets and live stock and possessions were to be burned. One guy took a couple pieces of gold and silver and other contraband.

In the next battle thirty-six men were killed in the battle. Joshua went to the Lord to discover what's up. God told him something to the effect you guys took some of my sacrifice. Now check this out. Thirty-six who didn't take anything were dead, but God spared the actual thief. God told Joshua to stone the thief, his wife, the kids, the pets and livestock. That doesn't seem fair at all to me. But then His ways are above my ways.

Just a heads up for you to not confuse what you read out side the Bible with What's inside the Bible.

There's that magic comparison again. Way off base.

Kent

antelope_sniper,



Why do you try to make God's Word say something it doesn't? Satan and the fallen angles were in Heaven. Obviously there is free will in Heaven. Those of us who get there will have no desire to reject His loving kindness. Those who reject His loving kindness here will get an eternity of punishment and will hate Him for it.

Occasionally I tell folks, "Those who love the Lord in this life will have more of a reason to love Him even more in Heaven. Those who don't love the Lord in this life will have even more reason not to love Him in Hell."

AS,

I wish it were so that the most common supernatural "(mis)belief" were that of belief in the Christian God. Sadly, I think the most common spiritual misbelief is the repudiation of and disbelief of the true and living God.

You have not tasted God and you know not. If you had tasted of God, you would be a changed man and a believer. And your belief would be unshakeable. Perhaps someday.

You seem to be similar to Saul. He was a persecutor of Christians and truly believed he was doing right. Then his eyes were opened. Note that it was an act of God to go to him and show him the truth about Himself. Not all calls of God are as dramatic as that. Mine was not.

I pray for you to be drawn to Him.

TF

"It doesn't sound fair to deal out the same retribution to those who do not know God as to those who don't obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, from my point of view."

From your "point of view?" Is that supposed to swing any weight with anybody? No scripture to back up your statement?

AS said:

"Then you concede there is no free will in Heaven."

No, he did not say that. He did not concede either. You are just making this stuff up as you go along. You read his words and then applied your own odd bias to it.

TF

I was hoping the thread title would draw you out.

I mentioned the confusion between conscience and conscious earlier. I don't believe evolution could have produced a creature with a CONSCIENCE.

As far as prayer...... I never mentioned it. Praying ONLY for knowledge of His will for ME and the power to carry it out has served me well these past thirty years. I confess to being somewhat ambivalent as far as intercessory prayer. Too many people believe in it for me to discount it, though.

In the realm of the Supernatural, the scientific methodology is reversed in many cases. First, there is the EVENT, which was entirely unpredicted. The EVENT produced a new way of observation which led to an enlightened analysis. But.... the results of the Event are observable in the natural world.

A creature is REBORN with a new outlook and attitude toward life. THAT is what is observable.

My idea of a scientific approach to answering the question; "Is there a Creator God", would be something like this:

God either IS or he IS NOT.

A Creation WITH a Creator is more believable than a creation WITHOUT a Creator, so I'll hypothesize that there IS some sort of creative Force responsible for the creation I observe.

But, how could I test my hypothesis?

If this creative force is completely impersonal, no test comes to mind.

But..... if I'm open-minded, as any real scientist must be, I can consider the possibility of a creative force which is still very much interested and involved in his creation.

I need then only ask myself if I am WILLING to allow this force to reveal himself to me, if he does exist and has that level of interest in his creatures.

And that, my friend, is when many hit a sticking point. Their mind is not nearly as open as they liked to think.

i do believe in a higher power....

but on taking individuals experiences as proof....problem is people can experience stuff that is very real to them but is not there.....good example is hallucinations.....i have a bad habit of doing so when i get a high fever.....at the time it is VERY phuggin real to me though after the fever is gone i realize what i went through or more usually am aware at that time what i am experiencing is not real....also went through auditory hallucinations real bad coming off a medication....

so knowing this even believing in a higher power it cant help but make one sit back and think and ask if another's experience is real or a trick of the mind....course thats why they call it faith, may never have a real answer....

One person's experience, even if it results in a total transformation of that person, is not much evidence of a higher power.

But millions of sobered up alcoholics who ALL credit their sobriety to a VERY REAL Higher Power make a pretty convincing case.

know plenty of alcoholics that sobered up for other reasons aswell, know plenty that swear they believe in a higher power that never get straight either....got alot of family like that....

my example doesnt disprove anything and hasnt even shaken my belief.....just said it makes yah stop and ask sometimes how much of any individuals experiance is truly a hand of god or just our phugged up brains....but that is where faith comes in......

Funny stuff right there. Lots of CHRISTIAN missionaries all over the world being a detriment to others.

I guess we should leave the work to the muslims, buddists, and various God-haters to take care of the poor. AS, you wanna sign up since you're such a standup guy compared to the Christians?

For sure, cur.

You are truly messed up. I included that statement to show I don't understand God. I post Scripture to "swing any weight with anybody." I feel sorry for you that some how I have hooks in you. Please forgive me and move on.

That one jumped out at me, is it more believable or more comfortable? No, not a trick question. In fact it kinda gets to the root of it. Makes you ask interesting (if difficult) questions about yourself anyway.

One take on conscience is we're not born with a moral conscience (the kind you're talking about) but with the ability to form a moral conscience. We are divinely inspired to make the right choices but that inspiration is ours to accept or reject.

Great video with Ravi Zacharias.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDDC1-_e7hI

If you can truly grasp the concept of "everything coming from nothing", then I reckon our minds work a whole lot different. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

But.... I'll grant you that I would be extremely uncomfortable with the idea that there is no power in the universe greater than human power. But the relative comfort of either idea had nothing to do with my coming to believing in a Higher Power.

In fact, thru my early adulthood, I would have much preferred a universe with no God. I tried to operate under a mutual non-aggression pact with whatever god there might be.

But I was driven to Him by forces beyond my control.

I still don't know much about Him.......... but I've learned a lot about myself.

And THAT is the key to the good life.

The greatest faith possible...

to look at any living creature and see:
billions of cells, each composed of billions of molecules, growing, reproducing, healing, each doing a specific job to maintain life in the animal as a whole
The complexity of DNA and how it reproduces itself and passes on genetic codes to offspring, how it control every minute body process
The brain, thinking, remembering, singing, composing, calculating, controlling the entire body
the digestive system breaking down food into its chemical components then rebuilding them to nourish the animal as a whole
The incredible process of reproduction, whether cell division, eggs, live birth

Seeing all of this and saying it all happened by itself, by accident, takes faith far greater than any required by the Lord. God is far easier to understand and to follow than to think that all this happens without Him.

Evolution is the default position for those who's pride will not allow for a power greater than themselves.

All of us are wrongdoers and all can be forgiven except those who commit the unforgivable sin which.

There is no knowledge of morality without Him having instilled it. He didnt instill it in animals.

Curdog,
This speaks volumes to me and I respect the manner in which you present your faith.

What gets to me is posters like Fireball2 who feel the need to interject God into posts that have nothing to do with God or religion.

Someone starts a thread concerning everyday aches and pains and he posts Scripture about being pain free after you die. Well no kidding you're dead.

Someone starts a thread asking where the jobs are. He suggests getting back to a Bible teaching church(I've never been in a church that didn't have a Bible). The guy asked about jobs, not religion. How does he know the original poster isn't already a student of the Bible? Kinda' presumptuous in my eyes.



I respect posters like ScottF and TLEE. Both of whom have profound faith and don't feel the need to proselytize. Their faith is evident in how they live their lives and in their posts.

"Christians" like FB2 And Ringman impress me as folks who need to push their faith on others as a means to bolster their own egos.

I think it is arrogance in it's purest form to tell someone that they're not getting to Heaven since their belief is different than theirs.

I believe in a higher power. It's something in me that's hard to express but the belief is there none the less.And the older I get and the more I learn the more profound the belief.

Its amazing how the unbelievers here pose questions for believers much as did the lost 2000 years ago while trying to trip Jesus up in order to put Him on the cross.

It's called obedience and love for fellow man. Jesus told us,
Matthew 28:18-20

“All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Maybe so, but sometimes, it's just obnoxious.

No one is making you do anything. If reading what believers say about Jesus bothers you, why do you even read the thread.

Sounds to me like you are wanting discussions discussing Him to be restricted to church or sunday school or worship groups. Are you miffed by local AM and TV stations hosting religious programs?

Are those obnoxious also?

Are you drawn like a moth to the light in the night and wanting us to turn the Light off?

Fireball, it's not fair to say all misbeliefs are equal. As an example, you belief it's perfectly acceptable to have someone tortured for an eternity if they don't believe in the correct mythical creator. Fortunately, you reserve this right to meet out punishment to this supernatural being, and believe that in this life, Christians should only use intellectual persuasive mean to attempt to save folks in the next life.

In contrast many Muslin sects believe they have the obligation to kill apostates in this life.

Any claim there is some kind of moral equivalence between you and them is absurd.

In addition, if we look at the out comes of various indicators of well being, it again becomes obvious that all religions are not created equal. Although it is Atheist and other Non's that score the highest on these scales, they are followed in order by Jews, Christians, Buddhist, Hindu's, Muslims, and at the bottom are primitive folks religions. As a result the change of a community from folk religion to Christianity can decrease the number and severity of the misconceptions that cause a population to do bone headed things in this life. Although this may be a move in the right direction, it is not an optimum solution.

Of course not. There a obvious demand for it, let them compete in the public square. Just let the Atheist and other religions do the same, so long as they can draw an audience sufficient to make themselves worth of the stations profit incentive.

This is called an argument from personal incredulity.

Not really.

Considering how the average person who successfully recover from alcoholism relapses times before they succeed in giving up the bottle, alcoholism probably kills more then ever recover from it. If anything is evidence against the effectiveness of an alleged higher power in this process. God has nothing to do with it. People give up the bottle when they are ready to, and not a moment before.

4

Then let those misguided dirkheads who dont love the 270 do the same so they dont miff with me.

Ok, you say that changed lives are evidence?

You just suggested an observable way you belief your favorite supernatural force affects this world.

If an effect is observable, it is testable.

Now design your experiment that would either prove, or falsify your God.

By admitting you understand the actions of your God as portrayed in the Bible are not just, you've just proven you are more moral then your God.

The 2 main religious sects in the USA are democrat and Republican.

Do you have to baptize them, or is "teaching" them sufficient to get them into heaven? I've asked you this before and don't recall you answering the question.

"I believe in a higher power. It's something in me that's hard to express but the belief is there none the less.And the older I get and the more I learn the more profound the belief."

That says it all.

Apparently, the guys you mention are afraid that you have found the wrong higher power. They've exhibited concern for me on that score.

Very easy, if folks were truthful. ALL those who want salvation and to believe and are willing to forsake themselves and ask Him in to their hearts will come to believe.

antelope_sniper,



You are truly a confused antagonist. You love to attribute words or thoughts to folks with whom you are discussing God. I did not admit to anything. I don't have a clue about understanding God or His actions. The God of the Bible is Infinite! It is not even in my thought process to admit something about God. We are His toys and He plays with us as the potter plays with his clay. I read His Word and accept it as a finite. You read my posts and the Bible as though you are above the whole fray forgetting you are also a mere finite.

Try to limit yor responses to what is actually stated.

If a guy has a heart attack and fails to follow his Doctor's suggested program for avoiding another one, is the Doctor at fault? Does it prove that Doctors are ineffective against heart problems?

This is a quote from THE authoritative book on alcoholism:

"Those who do not recover are people who cannot, or will not, completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves."

It's really very simple.... those who follow this simple spiritual program recover.

It's the 28 day "treatment centers" that account for the relapses.

"Now design your experiment that would either prove, or falsify your God."

Before doing that, I need to know something about you since you would necessarily be a participant in the experiment.

So... one question....... Do you believe the scientists who claim there may be other "worlds" with more dimensions than we have? Ones where our physical laws don't apply?

I understand they came by this idea by following the math.

Thanks for playing but you didn't answer a damn thing.

Thanks, Gene – a very thought-provoking post up front and some very thoughtful replies, including yours. By your life, I see that you are a Christian.

Of course, argument can be fun and entertaining. At this point, I can't recall all of the solid posters in this thread – and feel no need to comment on those persons, their methods or their positions – but do appreciate those that are reasoned and respectful. Of course, such attributes only enable graceful discourse and some clear thought – no proofs or “victories”.

It looks as though we all have our own ways and values for addressing the crucial issues involved with a Christian life on earth. Fortunately, God has given instruction and means for those who seek such. Those who do not seek are unlikely to get it. Some who don't get it will try to use God's statements of laws/principles/promises/assurances to undermine, trap or shame even the quietest of professing Christians. Why?

It seems that many Christians cannot be very true and effective by taking a narrowly-defined approach to those around them – particularly those who have chosen to not believe. I know no “one size fits all” method endorsed by God for reaching out to unbelievers. Your comment about consistently seeking the will of God is important. God gives us opportunities to reveal and illuminate the wonders of the Christian life – be those Scriptures, logical discussions, experiences, experiments, or whatever. But, those are His moments and we are fortunate if we identify and proceed as led.

In my very limited vision, no scientific action – no matter how elegant and sophisticated nor how fraudulent; no argument – no matter how super logical or grossly simple; no witness of experience – pro or con the existence and power of God; and no other action conceived by mankind will settle this hash. God has spoken. It all is there. If God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are to be revealed as made known in His Word, how then should we live? God, help me.

curdog4570,



Teaching all the council of God's Word is sufficient to get them into Heaven. I hope the following helps.

Water Baptism

November 24, 1994 edited July 12-13, 1996

BAPTIZE! WHEN?

A local pastor came to visit. While we discussed different aspects of the Christian life, we came to baptism. He told us about one of his parishioners who spoke of being a Christian. When asked when she was baptized, she told him it was not necessary. He then mentioned,
"If it was good enough for Jesus, isn't it good enough for you?" She agreed and was baptized. This is a nice argument for baptism. The sad thing is the pastor did not know the significants of baptism. He wanted her to do it just because church people do it; and that’s O.K.

But he was not taught the significants of baptism, consequently she was not. The pastor where I attended church for a few years told me,
"I have been a Christian for twelve years, and I haven’t been baptized." Obviously he would not teach the significants of baptism.
About twenty years ago, a fellow came to visit me. Anyone who has done that knows we are going to spend a lot of time looking into and discussing God's Word. The subject of baptism came up. He started without asking me what my position was by emphatically stating,
"You have a distorted view of baptism." Since we hadn't even discussed this subject, I was surprised by his accusation.
"Let's consider what the Bible has to say about that subject,” I challenged. We spent the next few hours on the subject. He changed his opinion of baptism and me.

Perhaps the following study about baptism can challenge the interested into a better understanding of what God's Word teaches about it.
The Old Testament appears silent to me regarding the word "baptize" or "baptism”. Therefore, we will start in Matthew. Some people understand that if something is recorded in the Bible more than something else, it is more important. I do not hold that opinion. Recorded in God's Word is the statement, "'Indeed God speaks once or twice, no one notices it.'" How many times does It say, "And the Word became flesh."? Yet the church generally has no trouble believing that the Word became flesh, lived, died, and resurrected Himself among men. Although Jesus never sinned, it was imperative for Him to be baptized. He said,
"'in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.'" Why did Jesus use the pronoun "us" in this passage? Was he referring to John and Himself? The quotation comes from Matthew 3:13-15. God's Word says,
"Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. But John tried to prevent Him, saying 'I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?' But Jesus answering said to him, 'Permit at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.'"

To find out how many Jesus was including when He said "us", we need only to stay in the book of Matthew. The last statement of Jesus recorded by Matthew is found in Matthew 28:19-20. Quoted here:
"'Go therefore and make disciples of all nations baptizing them into the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you all the days, even to the end of the age.'"

Even to the casual reader, it is clear that Jesus is including "disciples of all nations." Perhaps we can say since
"He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking on the form of a bondservant, being made in the likeness of men." (Philippians 2:6-7), that Jesus made a mistake about baptism. My pastor thought so. I hear radio and television preachers allude to that idea regularly. So, then, just how can we know if it really is an important part of the Christian experience? Those who have not elevated Jesus to the position which the Father has should read what the Father wrote by inspiration of the Holy Spirit in Philippians 2:9-11. His Word says,
"Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee would bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of the Father."

We will now see what the commentary of the Father was about Jesus' baptism. In Matthew 3:17 we find
"a voice out of the heavens, saying, 'This is My Son, the Beloved, in Whom I am well pleased.'"
It is obvious then that the Father approved, no! rather greatly approved, of the action by His beloved Son. In Matthew the Father addresses the crowd of observers. Mark and Luke inform us that the Father speaks to His Son. We don't know if He told the Son of His pleasure before He notified the crowd. We can rest assured that everyone was aware of God's joy. There is another time when the Father spoke to Jesus. It shows us clearly of the humanity of Jesus and the submission to the Father while in His subservient role. John 12:27-29 says,
"'Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, "Father, save Me from this hour?" But for this purpose I came to this hour. Father, glorify Your name.' There came therefore a voice out of heaven: 'I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.' The multitude therefore, who stood by and heard it, were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, 'An angel has spoken to Him.'"
Clearly, the Father responds to the Son in a positive manner.
In Matthew 28:19-20 we see some of Jesus’ last Words prior to His ascension:
“And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, ‘All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.’”
How did Jesus teach His disciples to make disciples?

I was once talking with a man who claimed God's Word is true. He just had many reservations about what constitutes God's Word. An example he gave was Mark 16:9-20. He said, as we discussed these verses,
"These verses are not found in some of the oldest manuscripts."

“Wow, I have never heard that before. Will you repeat that?” I asked. I asked him to repeat what he just said so that both of us would know exactly what he said. He repeated,
"Sure. These verses are not found in some of the oldest manuscripts."
"Then these verses are found in some of the oldest manuscripts, aren't they, based on your statement?"
"Well, yes, I guess so," he said.
"Good, then!" I said, "because if they didn't belong in the Bible the Infinite God would not have given them the prestigious position of being in His Word. For near the end of these very verses God's Word says, referring to Jesus,
"'And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."'" Mark 16:15-26

Before going any further, let me challenge the reader with a couple of sentences. If you open the book and read it, you can get the information. But, if you do not open the book, you will not get the information. How about, If you pick up the binoculars and look through them you can see distant objects. But, if you do not pick up the binoculars you cannot see distant objects. If you pick up the glass of water and take a drink, you can quench your thirst. But, if you do not pick up the glass, you cannot quench your thirst. One can see both actions are required. There are some who will say, "But Jesus did not say, ‘He who has disbelieved and has not been baptized shall be condemned.'" Why in the world would anyone be concerned with something Jesus did not say? We should not concern ourselves with what Jesus does not say. There is enough of what Jesus does say for us to correct our lives and the lives of those whom God grants us to influence. But just to answer this statement, one needs only to look at the previous verse. Jesus said "believe and be baptized", if I might paraphrase, so we already know that they are not saved. In John 3:15-18, Jesus uses the word "believe" five times in conjunction with eternal life. And again at the end of the chapter, John the Baptist said,
"'For He Whom God has sent speaks the Word of God; for He does not give the Spirit by measure. The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.'"(John 3:34-36) Jesus said, "'He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved.'"

This gives the new believer something to do, as soon as possible, that he knows will please both the Father and the Son! Was it not the first thing recorded about Jesus to show His start as the Christ? Should one do any less than Jesus, the Son of God, did in one's own start as the follower of God's Christ? Jesus was a sinless man and pleased His Father. Should a sinful person not try to emulate Jesus, so that he might please the Father?

Is the new believer working to get God's blessing? No. He has God’s gracious blessing by believing in His Son. He is now trying to do as Jesus, our example, has done. And Jesus said,
"'Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one iota or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished.'"Matthew 5:17-18 [Reader, please see essay on the Law.]

Jesus was not the least bit concerned with being called "legalistic". If we are to be like Jesus, we should not concern ourselves with this accusation, either. For Jesus says,
"And He Who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.' As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him. Jesus therefore was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, 'If you abide in My Word, you are disciples of Mine; and you shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall make you free.'"John 8:29-32
We need to be like Jesus and "do the things that are pleasing" to the Father.

In the Passages that tell us about the baptism of Jesus, we see the Holy Spirit coming upon Him. Some would take these few Passages to teach that one cannot receive the Holy Spirit unless he is baptized first. In the three places that I have chosen to use, the Holy Spirit does descend on Jesus, the Son of God, in bodily form: That is in Matthew 3:16 "...the Spirit of God descended as a dove", Mark 1:10 "...the Spirit like a dove descending", and Luke 3:22 "...the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove", God shows us this happening after the baptism. When we don't use as much as we can find, using God's Word on any particular subject, we may become guilty of distorting the Scripture like Satan did when he tempted Jesus. This can have grave consequences. Look at 2 Peter 3:14-16. God, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, says through the apostle,

"Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord: Salvation. Just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction."
We should be careful not to put God into a box that He has not chosen. He has, by His Word, limited Himself to act in a prescribed way according to Scripture. For He says in Psalm 138:2
"For You have magnified Your Word above all Your name."
And again in Titus 1:2
"...in the hope of eternal life, which God, Who cannot lie promised long ages ago."
We shall look at some examples from the beginning of the "Church", the "Church of God", "General Assembly and Church of the First Born", or "Church of Christ". These are all from the New Testament to describe the group of individuals who walk in the "Way". Acts 8:13-20 gives us a surprise look at some of the new believers. The person here called Simon was a sorcerer and "astonished them with his magic arts."
"And even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip; and as he observed the signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed. Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the Word of God, they sent them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money, saying, 'Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.' But Peter said to him, 'May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!'"
This group received the Holy Spirit after believing and being baptized.

The next group will receive the Holy Spirit and then be "ordered" or "commanded" to be baptized. It is related to us in Acts 10. I am hard pressed not to elaborate on the appearance of God being bribed in verse four. Finances are the only area of which I am aware we may Scripturally "test" God. See Malachi 3:10. We will start at verse one and go to verse eight of Acts Ten.
"Now a certain man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, a devout man, and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the people, and prayed to God continually. About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had come in to him, and said to him, 'Cornelius!' And fixing his gaze upon him and being much alarmed, he said, 'What is it, Lord?' And he said to him, 'Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God. And now dispatch men to Joppa, and send for a man, Simon, who is called Peter; he is staying with a certain tanner, Simon, whose house is by the sea.' And when the angel who was speaking to him had departed, he summoned two of his servants and a devout soldier of those who were in constant attendance upon him, and after he had explained everything to them, he sent them to Joppa."
We will skip to verses twenty eight and twenty nine to show what happened when Apostle Peter arrived.
"And he said to them, 'You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean. That is why I came without even raising any objection when I was sent for. And so I ask for what reason you have sent for me.'
After they inform Apostle Peter, we pick up the action where he responds. That is verse thirty four:

"And opening his mouth, Peter said, 'I most certainly understand that God is not One to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and works righteousness is welcome to Him. The Word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of All) you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed."

Skipping down to verse forty-four and finishing the chapter at verse forty eight, God's Word says,
"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the Word. And all the believers from among the circumcision who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also. For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 'Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we, can he?' And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days."

It is abundantly clear that the apostle, who had learned from the Master the significants of baptism, wanted them to be baptized in water. Here we have the opposite chronology compared to the first example. These two should show that God is sovereign and works His will in His way. For God's Word says in, Ephesians 1:11, that God "works all things after the counsel of His will."
Remember Mark 16:16? Jesus said,
"'He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved.'"
Notice the chronology? Jesus, The Word of God, said, "Believe and then be baptized." It will do no good to be baptized until one believes. Jesus established the way salvation is to be dispensed. In Acts 2 the apostle was speaking the words of eternal life to a group which believed the sermon. In response to the question by some believers, found in verse thirty seven,
"'Brothers, what shall we do', Peter said, 'Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself.'"(Acts 2:38-39)

First the group believed. Then, and not before, did he instruct them to repent and be baptized. It would do no good to baptize an unrepentant sinner. This is supported by 1 Peter 3:21. It reads,
"And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”
It is difficult to appeal to One in whom one does not believe. What is the result of the belief?
"So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and there were added that day about three thousand souls."(Acts 2:41)
In Acts 16:13-15, 25-33 & 18:8 we have more examples of belief with baptism immediately following. In the first of these examples Paul was speaking to a group of women beside a river. The Lord "opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul" and she and her household believed and were baptized that day. In the next example, Paul and Silas were in jail. Even though they had been beaten and were in chains, they were able to sing unto the Lord. God made an earthquake and opened all the cell doors and the bonds holding the apostles. The jailer
"called for lights and rushed in and trembling with fear, he fell down before Paul and Silas, and after he brought them out, he said, 'Sirs, what must I do the be saved?' And the said, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.'"(Acts 16:29-31)
In verse thirty three we're informed that,
"he took them that hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his."

NO DELAYING BAPTISM: IT IS PART OF THE CONVERSION PROCESS RECORDED IN THE SCRIPTURE.


WHY BAPTIZE?


To start with, why not? Why does this question even come up? Didn’t Jesus do it? Just why is baptism so important? Well, at work, what ever you do, you have someone telling or asking you to do something. Even if you are the owner, you have customers who want this or that. Some of the things requested or ordered seem to make no sense. We are just suppose to do them. As Christians, we have a Lord. We will not belabor the idea that the modern Americans, with all our rights, have lost sight of what a lord is. Obeying Jesus as Lord is much more difficult than accepting Him as Savior. In Acts 9:31 we may get some idea about Who the Lord is. It says,
"So the church throughout all Judea was having peace, being built up; and going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it continued to increase."

Many, many people want this "fear" to mean reverence or respect. A definition can be garnered from the Words of Jesus. Matthew 10:28 is quite clear that we are not being taught respect or reverence: Jesus said,
"'And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him Who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Now think for a minute or two about a known killer holding a loaded gun on you and your loved ones; and then tell me honestly that Jesus is not talking about knee knocking fear. And again the "unjust judge" shows us in Luke 18:4 that there is a difference in the original language between "respect" and "fear". The verse says,
"'And for awhile he was unwilling; but afterward he said to himself, "Even though I do not fear God nor respect man, yet because this widow bothers me, I will do her justice."'" Jesus said, "Believe and be baptized."

The boss has a tool he can utilize when logic or reason does not suffice: "Do what I say because I am the boss!" Baptism is important because the Lord Jesus Christ made "believe" and "baptize" of equal importance in His statement in Mark 16! So the obedient believer is baptized despite the fact he does not know the significants. One follows Jesus’ example.

No male who is educated about Jewish culture would claim to be a Jew if he were not circumcised. Yet now we have religious people claiming to be Christians without being baptized. Look carefully at what God's Word teaches us that the "circumcision of Christ" is. Colossians 2:8-12 gives a warning, some information about Who Jesus Christ is, and how to be circumcised with the "circumcision of Christ." (Verse eight or verse nine would be fun for the reader to give some thought to.) The Scripture says,
"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete and He is head of all rule and authority; and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, Who raised Him from the dead."

To reiterate the concept of the boss, let me take the reader back a few years to a wood shop where I was plant manager/foreman. There were fifty-five men and women employed there. A new employee was running a ten spindle sander. During her training, I told her, “Do not wear gloves while operating this machine.” While I was in the shop, I noticed she was wearing gloves while operating the machine. I reiterated the instruction, if the machine spindle caught the tip of her glove, she would most likely loose her finger before she could stop the machine. She removed her gloves. Later that day, when I was out in the plant, I noticed she had the gloves on. Again I explained why she should not wear gloves while running that particular machine, and given the opportunity to make her own decision not to wear them. She took the gloves off again. A couple of hours later, I was out in the plant again. What do I see? This lovely creature of God wearing the gloves again! Remembering what God's Word says,
"For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy;"(James 2:13),
she was again reminded of the consequence if the machine spindle caught the tip of her glove. She removed them. I went back into the office. In about two minutes flat, this same young lady came storming into the office and demanded to know why she was not allowed to wear her gloves while operating the ten spindle sander. As politely as if we were engaged in a friendly conversation, I said,
"You cannot wear the gloves because I am telling you you can't, and I'm the boss." She never wore them again on that machine. As obedient Christians we don't have to do things for "the right reason" as some try to teach, we just have to obey the Lord God. For in 1 Samuel 15:22&23 we find this Word:
"'...Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice.'" and "'For rebellion is as the sin of divination (witchcraft), and insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry.'"
Also in Ecclesiastes 12:13 God's Word says,
"The conclusion, when all has been heard: Fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person."
If we have not had the Lord come to us and tell us to go and lay hands on an apostle "that he might regain his sight", we should not be arrogant in thinking Ananias, who had this experience, made a mistake in his instructions to the apostle. In Acts 9 we are introduced to Ananias. In Acts 22, the Apostle Paul relates to some Jews what Ananias said. We will start at verse two and read through verse sixteen.

"And when they heard that he was addressing them in the Hebrew dialect, they became even more quiet; and he said, 'I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated at the feet of Gamalliel, according to the strictness of the ancestral Law, being zealous for God, just as you all are today. And I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and putting both men and women into prisons, as also the high priest and all the Council of the elders testifies for me. From them I also received letters to the brothers, and started off for Damascus in order to bring even those who were there to Jerusalem having been bound to be punished. And it came about that as I was on my way, approaching Damascus about noontime, a very bright light suddenly flashed from heaven all around me, and I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" And I answered, "Who are You, Lord?" And He said to me, "I am Jesus the Nazarene, Whom you are persecuting." And those who were with me beheld the Light, to be sure, but did not understand the voice of the One Who was speaking to me. And I said, "What shall I do, Lord?" And the Lord said to me, "Arise and go on into Damascus; and there you will be told of all that has been appointed for you to do." But since I could not see because of the brightness of that Light, I was led by the hand by those who were with me, and came into Damascus. And a certain Ananias, a man who was devout by the standard of the Law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, came to me, and standing near said to me, "Brother Saul, receive your sight!" And at that very hour I looked up at him. And he said, "The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will, and to see the Righteous One, and to hear a voice from His mouth. For you will be a witness for him to all men of what you have seen and heard. And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on His name."'"
Someone of equal stature in the new church spoke similar words to more than just one person. We have visited this Scripture earlier. On the day of Pentecost, after the Holy Spirit had filled the apostles, they began to speak to a gathering crowd. The size of the crowd is not listed, but the number of new believers was great! Acts 2:41 says,
"So then those who had received his word were baptized; and there were added that day about three thousand souls."
Why were they baptized? Let's look at the section of Scripture just before this.
"Now when they heard, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, 'Brothers what shall we do"' And Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself.'"(Acts 2:37-39)

If belief was adequate in itself, this group was just fine. They believed. But, instinctively they asked, "What do we do?" If belief was the entire salvation story, Peter would have said something like, "That's it folks. There's nothing more. Go in peace." If belief was enough, why did the apostle who was taught by Jesus, THE Boss, tell them to do more. Was he adding to Jesus' Word? Was he adding works to the free gift of Jesus' finished work on the cross?

How much work did you do if you go to the mailbox and discover a free gift there? The gift is a check for $10,000; with a note instructing you to go to your bank, endorse the check and cash it. How much work are you doing when you get into your car and drive to the bank? How about getting out of your car and walking into the bank, are you doing anything to earn the $10,000. When you pick up the pen and endorse the check are you working to earn the money? Continuing, are you doing something to earn the gift when you get out your I.D. and prove you are the legal recipient of the free gift? Are you adding to the finished work of the writer of the check? Of course the answer is the same for every one of the above questions. You are doing nothing to earn the free gift. It’s free. You are adding nothing to the requirements. However, if you want to appropriate the funds of the gift, you must do certain prescribed actions demanded by accepting the free gift. So it is with water baptism.
If belief was sufficient, Apostle Peter added two things: (1) "repent, (2) and let each of you be baptized."
Apostle Paul adds another when he wrote,
"If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord AND believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes to righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses to salvation."(Romans 10:9-10)
The more we study God's Word, the more we find God's gems of Truth. If we ponder the whole of baptism as though we have never heard of it, it may look considerably different from what we have heard or thought or even been taught. We find in 1 John 1:7 that the blood of Jesus cleanses from sin. How do we appropriate that cleansing? 1 Corinthians 11:1 says,
"Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ." Acts 22:16 says to
"Arise, and BE BAPTIZED AND WASH AWAY YOUR SINS, calling on His name." Acts 2:38 instructs us to,
"'Repent and let each of you BE BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS;'"
We employ water baptism in the name of The Lord Jesus Christ to utilize His blood by faith to cleanse us from our sins. So that Romans 6:4 can come alive in us. It says,
"Therefore, we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the Glory of the Father so we too might
WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE."

At this point I don't believe these particular hypothesis have met their burden of proof. Although they produce some nice equations, neither M theory, nor any of it's derivatives have been able to able to produce a testable prediction. All it's accomplished for far is to spend a lot of money on salaries and pencils.

But...... is your mind closed to the POSSIBILITY that their hypothesis may prove to be true?

It's possible, but at this point they have a lot of work to do to convince me. At this point I think it is more likely that particular hypothesis will die out in favor of other, that we many not have even heard of yet, that become better supported by evidence.

Thanks, Paul. I enjoy these types of discussions where each guys opinion counts exactly the same as the rest.

I don't believe I have ever closed my mind to anything I don't have personal knowledge of. I admit being a tad skeptical about alien abductions, for instance, but I can't positively rule all of them out.

And I'll admit that my mind is closed on the question of God's existence.

So I don't believe it is possible for any man to ever completely close his mind on the God question except in the affirmative.

Well, anyone can believe in anything of the world which idea of is confirmed by scientific proof Which is a concern of the physical.

The Spirit is of something spiritual, not physical. The Creator is not limited to purely physical science.

The spiritual life can only be accessible by faith. Without faith, there is no spiritual being, there is only the physical. The physical is the flesh and the flesh is not eternal, but returns to the dust, from which it came.

Says you and yours. Because it helps drown your hearts in syrup of an afterlife.
Me and mine say laws are laws. A creator is bound by physical laws.
And I'm not prostrating myself to Santa for a set of duck wings and an eternity listening to harp music and Gandhi jokes.

Indeed. But more than just millions of sober alcoholics. It's many millions of transformed liars, thieves, fornacators, adulterers, murderers, etc etc that make a VERY persuasive case. True Christianity changes lives dramatically.

Unlike the psudo saved who act like animals?
I don't lie, cheat, steak, kill, ...I don't drink or smoke, cheat on my wife. I pay my taxs, help my neighbors, smile, help strangers...all without the Jesus in my heart.
Wonder why some demon hasn't taken me...uh, cuz day ain't real.

After reading most of this thread, I can't avoid the conclusion that religion doesn't hold a candle to atheism as an opiate for the masses. Here's a hint: take the red pill.

Are you sufficiently educated in the subject to determine the validity of the tests if the proponents of "other dimensions" claim they have "proof"?

Or will you rely on "peer reviews?

After all, any evidence will not be something we can test with our five senses.

Well, no....... it's because you are so "special".

Don't try and label me.
I'm not an atheist, agnostic or practitioner of any religion.
I'm not bound by words on old paper or marks on stone tablets.
I'm a free man able to see and think and believe what I choose.
GOD is soooo much bigger than your god.

Ringman, my question lends itself perfectly to a "Yes",or "No", or "I don't know".

Your "answer" took up half a long page of bible verses interjected with your comments.

I'll try again:

IS WATER BAPTISM NECESSARY FOR SALVATION?

It's the zealot who is forced to ignore new information because it doesn't support their books teaching.
How many people were persecuted over scientific revelations like ...a round planet...sun centered system, multiple galexies, medicine...
Your little Jew god SAID bird blood cured leprosy.

I already admitted that I don't know much about "my" god.

Can you give me the comparative sizes of the two?

I might want to trade up.

Is this non-sequitur hour?

Yep.

All your posts are addressed to me. But they make no sense as responses to anything I've posted.

As I wrote earlier, I find it obnoxious when people interject God or religion where it isn't relative.

Yep, it cured me.

Only those who have the key, can see the blessing of spirituality.

Read a thread that agrees with thee. You are obnoxious to folks like me.

"As I wrote earlier, I find it obnoxious when people interject God or religion where it isn't relative."

I'll drink to that! It always comes off as phony to me.

Just last week I listened to a lecture about experiences with aliens and alien abductions. It was interesting to hear everyone of those having any kind of experience with aliens had dabbled in the occult and/or witch craft. Another thing that was very interesting was everyone who called on the name of Jesus said the experience was instantly over. The researcher said he could find no professing Christian who had any alien experiences.

"Is this non-sequitur hour?"

What do you expect........ he already confessed to liking the 270.

When you ask me a Bible question you get a Bible answer. Jesus says,
“Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

I knew a guy in Greenville, Ms. who was a Deacon in a Church of Christ who claimed to have been taken aboard a spaceship. Was a newspaper article about it at the time.

Why is it so hard for you to say " I don't know" ?

I know a guy, who was on the board member of the Gold Beach Church of Christ, who thought he was a Christian. He told me after we had a few very friendly conversations,
"You all that stuff you been tellin' me?"
"What stuff?" I asked.
"You know, the stuff in the Bible. It's true."
"How do you know?"
"I checked it last night. I thought I was a Christian 'til I met you."

Going to church, even the Church of Christ does not make one a Christian. Humbling one's self before the Most High God and accepting His Gift of His Son's atonement for sin and obeying Jesus Christ makes one a Christian.

Why is it so hard for you to accept a clear Bible answer? You either accept Jesus' Word or you reject it. There is no middle ground. Jesus say, "You are either with Me or against Me."

This is what you posted as an answer:

"When you ask me a Bible question you get a Bible answer. Jesus says,
“Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

Now... from that, did Jesus say baptism is necessary for salvation?

certain people just hate the Word Rich, you know that! To a believer it's LIFE.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

I'm pretty sure you hate it when I quote scripture no matter what thread it is!

You're putting Atheists and Nons at the top of the helpful cultural life list? That takes quite the stretch of revisionist history to get there. Have you checked into the history of the 20th-century lately? At least deal with the data fairly.

You and Ringman can't get it thru your self-centered heads that others don't have a problem with the bible, they just like to read it for themselves rather than have a couple of holier than thou members ASSUMING they are carrying out a mission from God by derailing threads.

The two of you have demonstrated what I predicted in my O P.... you are incapable of original thought.

He kind of switched gears in mid post, I think.

He started out with THIS :

" if we look at the out comes of various indicators of well being,...."

So I think he means that AS INDIVIDUALS, Atheists and non-believers are more content and well off.

It sort of makes sense. After all, if you're the most powerful force in the universe, why wouldn't you be happy?

If you are offended then don't read it. There are a lot of topics I just don't open when I see them posted here. Your other choice is to use the ignore feature. If I offend you by being a Christian then ignore me. It is easy and simple.

Many likely are. It makes sense though, that it should be about the journey itself, and not just the destination.

AS,

You posted:

"
In addition, if we look at the out comes of various indicators of well being, it again becomes obvious that all religions are not created equal. Although it is Atheist and other Non's that score the highest on these scales, they are followed in order by Jews, Christians, Buddhist, Hindu's, Muslims, and at the bottom are primitive folks religions."


Do you have a reference for this?

Thanks,

TF

I have a Bible, His message to us, you see, is more truth than the way I see.

For crying out loud, Scott, the man is not talking about posts on THIS thread. He's pointing out that Fireball and Ringman clutter up other threads by posting bible verses when the topic is purely secular.

What he may not know is that they have an agenda. The bible verses are NOT directed at non believers.

Their intent is to create doubt among believers who don't happen to subscribe to the teachings of the Campbellites,aka Church of Christ members.

Teachings like.. God ONLY reveals Himself thru the Bible.

And.. Water baptism is a requirement for salvation.

They are out to "save" US....... not the lost souls [if there be any such thing].

The believers already believe. The doubters already doubt. My objective is to live my life everywhere to glorify God. Occasionally this encourages the believers and occasionally it bothers the unbelievers. Once in awhile it brings someone to faith in Jesus. When my brother was an unbeliever I sent him a Bible. He called and told me the hardest people to save are the "Christians" who don't know they're not Christians.

When I was a new believer I used to asked almost everyone I met if they were a Christian. They all told me, "Yes". I wondered why if everyone was saved, why they didn't tell me about Jesus. Then one day after asking a guy and receiving the normal "Yes" I decided to fellowship and share testimonies. I asked, "How long have you been born again?" He didn't have a clue what I was talking about!

Jesus says, "Let your Light shine among men so they may...glorify the Father."

As far as the Church of Christ, I am not accepted there. I actually believe God's Word that tongues, signs, wonders, and miracles still happen today. They flatly reject God's Word in this area. I had a friend who was a Church of Christ pastor. He told me, "If you are not a member of the Church of Christ found in the Yellow Pages of the phone book you are not a Christian." I prayed for a healing for one of his members, who was healed, and clinched my exodus from his church.

The Word inflames stiff necked people, both believers and non-believers. If me posting it bothers you to a great degree, that simply reveals where you're at, and says nothing condemning at all about me. To the contrary, to a believer, the Word is LIFE. I very much enjoy reading it. Don't you?

Quite a stretch for you to tell me what I believe, I admit I was a little surprised you made the leaps you did. Pray for a discerning spirit before going off on a rant.

As for original thought, I have plenty, here's my take on that-

"Don't waste what is holy on people who are unholy. Don't throw your pearls to pigs! They will trample the pearls, then turn and attack you."

I've learned to save my thoughts for people that are sincere and honest in intent. Does it infuriate you that I refuse to be trapped by dishonest words and intentions? Men that do not act honorably do not deserve to be treated as if they did, so I refuse to engage them.

As I posted earlier, the Word cuts to the core of a man, and reveals him, so that's what I post. If you want to argue with the Word, take it up with God.

Bring a lunch.

This reply leaves me a bit curious.
1. Was curdog's question a "Bible" question or some other sort? How can you tell?
2. In your "Bible" answer, do Christ's words mean "water baptism"? How can you tell?

Curdog,

quoting a summary principle that was derived from some theory or belief is not experience it's a principle of a theory, and not much more.

Now scientifically if you can reproduce things (aka repeatable) then a theory or principle can be scientifically proven. At which point we have a rule or law of physics.

I think you run into a slippery slope of using principles to condom other principles without explaining which ones are provable / repeatable. aka evidence, which was in the first post of the thread.

It may be better to provide some evidence vs. principles, of course those things generally don't matter to competitive folks trying to "win"... which always seems to be part of the equation when it comes to men and repeating subject threads.

Past the approach this method has flaws in the argument...

Many people identify repeating patterns in life, inside biblical passages and others start with the passage and project the passages as a solution almost in search of a problem. These are both ways of doing analysis, and long term each person really has to measure "what's right".

I think it's good to try to find the truth, so in my belief condemning the attempt to find truth - and here's some logic for you - is a bad thing..

I also don't expect every person to have the same amount of experience, mentors, and other teachings to conduct analysis and learn, or "be smarter" than another person - So this evidence really stands on it's own - but more importantly, it means one shouldn't fault another person for not knowing something.. this is more of the natural state.

In summary - "comical as it is" I don't throw stones at others who are searching in a way I don't think is right. Honor them searching for the truth, try to help them without being competitive or preachy using principles you can't back up with evidential proof either.

and sometimes, just sometimes - it may be the human ego trying to test it's own sense of "I'm right" when challenging others.. aka self doubt... thinking I'm wrong about something I know is often more correct than thinking I know everything.

Best Regards,
Spot

I can conceive of it but for me that makes it all pointless.


I hear ya! In learning about yourself, in a way you're learning about Him. Image and likeness and all that.

It may sound silly but I analogize to me and my dog. I love her more than she can possibly conceive. I'll forgive her anything and want her to be nothing but happy. But she isn't always because I know what's in her best interest, like not overfeeding when she asks for more. Imperfect analogy but you get the idea. (If only she would listen! )

Do you remember when The Real Hawkeye used a LARGE death's head mask of Obama as a sig line, which appeared after every post he made? Damn thing took up half a page by itself.

Several members, including me, pointed out how distracting it was and asked him to remove it.

His response?

We were all secret admirers of Obama and had voted for him.

Deja Vu.

All this arguing that goes on here is men contributing what they think is really smart, countered by another mans opinion that he holds as brilliant, but is 180 degrees from the last. If you seek truth, there has to be a right and a wrong, all can't be correct! If you want opinions, go to a forum. The more of it you read the more it sounds like blah blah blah. The Word never sounds like blah blah blah to me. I find it is rich in content that applies to life. I look for the truth in peoples posts, but I find if it doesn't line up with the Bible, it's just noise. It's been tried and found wanting, but the poster doesn't even know it yet. The books of ecclesiastes and proverbs pretty much sum it up. There's nothing new under the sun, it's all been done before, and the way of a man seems right to him but in the end it leads to death.

I will continue to post the Bible verses that fit the conversation. I believe the wisdom in the bible speaks for itself. As I see it, surely we as men can add little to what God has to say about a topic.

In case you haven't noticed it is very relative here on a Thread about the very subject you are calling interjections not relative. Your pointless point was taken the 1st time you posted it and now you, again have "to interject it where it is not relative"?

Go drink a few beers and come back later.

Thanks for the thoughtful post. After your reference to my O P, I re-read it to see which comment you are faulting. I really do respect other folks right to hold a different opinion, but using hyperbole and exaggeration to make a point may often obscure that.

I have learned much about human nature from participating in threads such as this one, and one thing I've learned which accounts for the dissension which often results is this:

If a man believes there is a Higher Power which is interested in communicating with us...... it is THE most important fact in his life.

If a man believes otherwise, THAT belief is no more consequential than any other negative belief he holds.

In my humble opinion, a non-believer appealing to "Science" to discount the existence of a Creator God is just as wrong as a bible thumper appealing to the bible to"prove" His existence.

The question must be settled on other grounds.

You point out that some men know more than others, and that is true of "facts" in the scientific sense. And each "scientist" builds on the work of others who came before him. He doesn't have to perform ALL the experiments himself.

But... if there be a spiritual dimension in our lives, we ALL are equal in knowledge in THAT realm, which is to say we all know NOTHING when we first enter it. We must perform each "experiment" for ourselves.

But if a man's mind be closed to even the possibility of a spiritual dimension, he will never perform the one Experiment which could lead to an Experience in that realm.

I have been there , its a great place. Do not fear, just be good.

CCCC,



1. We start with curdog's question. He claims to be a Christian. I am a Christian. He is asking about water baptism and salvation. Both of these are Biblical concepts. From that I surmise his question is a Bible question. At the risk of making a mistake here I will say, I think, for him and me, there is no salvation outside of God.

2. Many will try to say "baptize" is filled with the Holy Spirit. But that is covered in Matthew 28 where Jesus tells us to "baptize them in the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit." Also if one looks at all the examples in Acts how the apostles baptized: Always with water. In fact in one place, Acts 10, Apostle Peter ordered water baptism. It reads, "'Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?' And he ordered them to be baptized..." If you use a Bible dictionary and check the word "baptize" you find the word comes from a word like our English word whelmed. Like when a bottle thrown into a pond it is whelmed and overwhelmed when filled inside and outside and sinks.

Remember too, most of them are also lieberals, so their content with the talking points of their masters, and enjoy the false security of a massive government. All in all, it just goes to confirm, that ignorance is bliss.

And Jew haters, chronic masturbaters and habitual chewing gum spitter outers...

CCCC,

Tell me, if you don't mind what you think he was asking since he and I are both Christians.

Also tell me what else you think Jesus was referring to, please.

I understand his original comment and my response still stands. If they offend him then don't read their posts and if they really tick him off use the ignore function.

Like you my beliefs in water baptism and differ from Ringman's as well as my beliefs in what methods God can reach us. I have been baptised twice, once as a teen and again as an adult when my understanding of what I was really doing was a lot better. I have baptised others. I think it is good to be baptised and all believers should want to me baptised but I refuse to say or think it is the only way.

I am also Baptised in the Spirit but that is a discussion for a different time.

The same with the Bible. I have read the Bible, several different interpretations of it, from index to maps more times than I can remember. But, I do not at all think it is the only way God can speak to us.

I believe in a loving God who's grace is beyond our understanding. I also believe in a God who is so powerful that he can speak all creation into existence. There is no way I will even try to limit what God can do. In my mind saying that you must be baptised in order to me saved is limiting God. The same with saying the Bible is the only way God can speak to us. He is God and is not limited by my thoughts or opinions.

I could have wrote that word for word and signed my name to it, so I'll have to say, Amen.

You realize that your very first sentence also includes you, yes? The rest of what you said is just more "blah blah blah", as you put it. Not that there's anything wrong with that, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I could have wrote that word for word and signed my name to it, so I'll have to say, Amen. [/quote]

I already knew you and I are on the same page.

"Tell me, if you don't mind what you think he was asking since he and I are both Christians."

I'll make it a multiple choice question.

Do YOU think water baptism is necessary for salvation?

A. Yes

B. No

C. I've never given it any thought

D. Maybe

Due to God's infinite sense of smell, if stinking to high heavens, A.

I will make this as simple as I can. What is so hard about accepting the Words of Jesus? After all, He is the Savior and says what He wants.

I'm asking what YOU think.

Jesus DID NOT make Himself clear on the subject, in my opinion.

You are a bible scholar. What do you think the answer is, based on your scholarship.

Why are you so reluctant to answer a simple question about a sacrament?

He can't answer it, he can't say he knows Christ's mind... he may know Paul's or an Apostle's.

It reads, "'Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?' And he ordered them to be baptized..."

who 'have' received the Holy Spirit just as we did...

interesting... not 'will'...

But bible scholars miss a lot of obvious stuff.

Kent

Unfortunately, its all too often used as a stick, rather than for enlightenment.

language warning:

Again, the life lived on earth...the choices we make, whether we believe in God and believe God...are manifestations of our free will. Once ensconced in Heaven, the DESIRE to disobey God will most likely not be there. I write "most likely" because I have not been there and so do not know definitively. The beauty is that this particular discussion is not crucial to salvation.

In reality, nothing else matters that serving God and our salvation.

Absolutely true. The Greatest Commandment.

So just how Moses got all the animals on the Arc and just how many angles can sit on the point of a pin really do not cause me to stay away nights because no matter what some might say none of it matters to my salvation.











Yes I know the answer to the first is none because Moses had nothing to do with the Arc, he just captained a small read basket.

The Christian bible is 100% fact and correct on a accounts after you remove the bullchit, lies, and wrong stuff.

Lotta folks feel that God had more of a hand in it than that...as opposed to just leavin' something so important all to chance. They feel that He saw to it that we ended up with what He wanted us to end up with regarding His word.

Seems the Bible got it right:

1 Peter 4:3-4

3 For the time that is past suffices for doing what the Gentiles want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry. 4 With respect to this they are surprised when you do not join them in the same flood of debauchery, and they malign you;

Maligning?

Yep,

TF

living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry?

And what of the nonchristians who don't live that way and just malign you because you discount reality and belive fairy tales written by goat herders who had to be threatened with hellfire to quit diddling the lovestock?

Literary consisistancy is a method by which scholars prove authorship. C.S Lewis embarked on a campaign to prove the Bible was not true using this method. Among many truths he found was the fact that the Bible is completely consistent in theme and remarkably so in style. For example, the Bible was penned by roughly 40 different people over a period of approximately 1600 years, yet the theme is constant. Christ will come, Christ is here, Christ will come again. One theme, one Author. Fairy tails? I think not.

Sorry...Fairy tales.

It's called Textual Criticism. Modern Textual Critics say half the stuff attributed to Paul was actually forged by others, and not written by Paul. It's a pretty interesting field of study.

Because he know's it's one of those questions that can yield an answer either direction, like it has for the last 2k years.

Small government libertarian here.

krp,

First I am not a Bible scholar. I am a Bible student. The idea they received the Holy Spirit was not lost on me. I did a study of the Old and New Testament on the subject of the Holy Spirit. If you check it out you will see King Saul was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied. And he turned out to be the enemy of God.

God can not be put in a box.

TF, I posted an econometric model for the affects of the religions of a countries inhabitants on the per capita GDP. As I recall, it created much whining and gnashing of teeth.

I don't mind, as long as you do not surmise or infer that I think I know it all - or that I might consider myself to be so wise and insightful that I can simply quote Scripture and/or repeat any of the words of Jesus as absolute and incontrovertible evidence of some such principle held by me.

I had a thought that Gene might be asking his question from a doctrinal point of view (is all doctrine Biblical?) - as maybe "denominational doctrine"? He seems to have insight about the magnificent and unending challenge of trying to discover/learn all that God means. This could include the very interesting matter of actual H20 being required for true Christian "baptism". For example - how about the extra hydrogen deuterium that enables "heavy" water? Would that heavier stuff work, or be even better?

I don't profess to know exactly and totally what Jesus meant in the passage you cited - I simply hope to know. I do believe that His words often mean things greater and deeper than what we are able to discern upon simply reading. I try hard to understand, but am not so bright and certain of my discerning powers that I could feel qualified to exactly define what Jesus requires as it applies to the life of another person. I do not know of an organized religious denomination or church that could get me to such a point of "know-it-allness".
Thanks for asking.

Wow,

What a leap.

How do you get from:
"There is no good evidence to support the existence of a God,

to "Therefore I am the most powerful force in the Universe?"

That makes no sense at all....Where you joining Doc for non-sequitur hours, or did you post that after a couple of beers?

Indeed they do, and thats a perfectly fine belief. Some people just can't admit that it is a belief, and that sometimes causes issue's. When people make definitive statements about what the truth is, they are likely to be challenged by those who see things differently. In cases like this one, neither side can offer definitive proof of their beliefs, so the argument will simply carry on until all participants tire of it.

I see some in here, if they ended up in judgement still arguing 'Well, you don't exist you know.'

I also see some arguing 'Well, I have studied the Bible and I know that's wrong and this is what you really meant.'

Not a leap at all.

If there is no Higher Power than Human Power, which defines the Atheist Religion, then an Atheist sees himself, a human, as the greatest power in the universe.

Whether that's YOUR belief, or not, doesn't matter. You chose your words.

I responded to them... not you.

"God can not be put in a box."

Nor a book.

And some folks think it is their duty to use the bible to correct other folk's beliefs.

God has never failed to reveal His will FOR me, To me.

He has never once revealed to me what His will is any of His other critters.

So I reject out of hand those who's only contribution to our discussions are the posting of biblical passages that most of us have read countless times.

It's sort of like speaking in tongues with no translation. Even Ol' Paul thought that was useless.

Based on some of your other posts about the Bible, how do you know what ol' Paul meant?

curdog4570,



Do you want us to believe we can't learn about God from the Bible?

I just read the black part of his letters.

Nope..... just that it's not the ONLY way, and perhaps not even the best way.

CCCC,



Do you believe Jesus' Words about the Holy Spirit guiding us into Truth applies to His believers or was He limiting it to those at the table? If you believe He was including us readers, you might asked to be filled with the Holy Spirit. I have seen some folks' eyes of their hearts really open up after requesting.

Lord save me from some of your followers.......

Yep, more maligning.

You prove the point.

TF

OK, I understand that.

TF

That's silliness. No current textual critic that approaches the text from the direction they would approach any other ancient text thinks that half of Paul's writings are spurious.

You need to stay up-to-date with your criticisms, as you keep re-hashing modernistic presuppositions that have largely been rejected by current scholarship.

DakotaDeer,

He prefers a myth to the facts. Sad.

We can talk a little on this subject when I feel better. Vertigo and back spasms all week have been making my concentration a little lean.

I think Paul was quite clear on that subject.

AMEN

I can certainly understand that sentiment.

Bein' one of His followers is not about how much we know. It's about how much we obey His teachings. Bein' one of His followers isn't just about having more knowledge...it's about having more fruit. If we love Jesus, we're gonna do what He says. Many 'Christians' in our culture today are educated way beyond their level of obedience to His teachings. Most of us don't need to know more...we need to apply what we already know.

Scott F,



I agree completely. In fact almost everything in the Bible is so clear even a child will not misunderstand It. Jesus even said, "Accept you become like a child you will not enter the Kingdom of God."

Scholar/student/study/learn... I'm glad you cleared that up...

And thanks for confirming water baptism is public affirmation, not salvation.

Kent

Is the Holy Spirit limited to believers or does he work in nonbelievers to bring them the truth?

Kent

krp,



Where did you get that idea? I don't see it as either.

And that's why few take you seriously...

Kent

Both. If you'd like something interesting to study and ponder, think on what men were like before the Holy Spirit was freely given beginning at pentecost.

“‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy...

before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

Was Jesus water baptized for his salvation, or public affirmation?

Kent

krp,



You remind me of the last couple verse in Luke 11.

Matthew 3:13-15
"Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him. But John tried to prevent Him, saying, 'I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?' But Jesus answering said to him, 'Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.'"

I remind you or reminded you?

Kent

krp,



When I made the statement it was in the present tense.

The road map to Him can be and is. Some also happen to be capable of reading sign or asking for directions. Others are afraid to make the trip.

", you might asked to be filled with the Holy Spirit. I have seen some folks' eyes of their hearts really open up after requesting."

So...... CCCC is NOT filled with the Holy Spirit already?

He sure fooled me when I MET HIM IN PERSON.

And..... since the Bible is written so clearly, why don't you enlighten us on the subject of the necessity of water baptism?

But it is the sort of map which is useless without a Guide. Good thing He provided one.

Good to know I remind you of righteousness...

Kent

"Good to know I remind you of righteousness...

Kent"

Unlike poor Paul who needs to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

krp,



Apparently you didn't read the last two verse of Luke 11. You flatter yourself.

curdog4570,



How does one improve God's Word? Ananias said to Saint Paul,

"Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on Jesus name."

That's what I'm talking about right there!

So.... Ananias told Paul to be baptized. And Jesus got baptized.

John's baptism was for the remission of sin.... but Jesus was sinless.

You claim the bible is clearly written so that a child can understand it, but you won't/can't answer the simple question, in your own words:

DO YOU THINK WATER BAPTISM IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION?

You've dodged the question long enough. Answer it or be branded an intellectual coward.

Thinking sentient humans have been around for over 2,000,000 years.
Your Jesus came around 2000 years ago.
So, no.
I am not very inclined to believe in a "god" who shows up after .001% of our time.
And if you want to spend your life following some set of rules laid down by The Roman Emporer Constantine , then have at it.
Because the majority of non Jews didn't even believe that Jesus was anything other than a teacher.
You fundamentalist need to crack a book other than the KJV once in a while.
Read...
Council of Niceia
Aryan question
Donation of Constantine

LOOK.... I asked you very nicely in an earlier post on this thread to address your posts to the person you are responding to instead of addressing ALL of your valuable contributions to ME.

Funny you can take someone's word about something that happened 200 k years ago, but not something reported personally 2 k years ago.

And, No, I'm not a KJV thumper.

Atheism is not a religion. It is the position one a single proposition, the proposition "Does a god exist?" THAT'S IT!!

If it is your position that a particular god, or all gods have not met his burden of proof, congratulation, you are an Atheist. If you take the position that you can disprove the existence of a specific definition of a specific god, then you are an Anti-theist. This says nothing about a particular Atheist or Anti-theist world view. They can be wide and varied.

I believe you are conflating Atheism with Humanism, but even then, Humanist do not take the position that Humans are the greatest power in the Universe. If you want to read the actual first Humanist Manifesto, you can, and you will see your claim does not hold up.

http://americanhumanist.org/Humanism/Humanist_Manifesto_I

Which one's.

He only wrote half of them.

curdog4570,

You don't seem to get it. When one of my bosses asked me my what I believe about "eternal security"? I told him,
"Ezekiel 33."
"No, I mean your personal opinion," he continued.
"Ezekiel 33," I said again.
"You're not getting my question. I want to know what you actually think."
"I thought I was pretty clear. Read Ezekiel 33 and you will know what I think about eternal security," I told him.

If you want to know what I think about baptism read Matthew 28:18-20 and Mark 16:14-16. You will know what my position is on water baptism. I can't say it any clearer than that.

antelope_sniper,

A few years ago an atheistic group applied for tax exempt status. The case went all the way to the US Supreme Court. The court decided atheism is a religion.

About Apostle Paul writing only half the New Testament letters ascribed to him, you get your best master's degree or Ph.D apologist for a debate and I will get someone there to debate him on the subject. Get ready to be schooled. Let me know when you have someone.

They is by a a guy with a PHD in Textual Criticism:

http://www.amazon.com/Forged-Writin...426895383&sr=8-2&keywords=forged

Only $11.03 in paperback.

antelope_sniper,

See if you can get him to defend his position in a public debate with another Ph.D.

Why?

He's already done a dozen public debates.

The way I read his question a"yes" or "no" would seem clearer. Of course that's just a Catholic's way of thinking.......Lord knows we're not actually "Christian" according to a number of the "righteous" here, so what do I know.

George

But according to the Pope, Catholics are the only righteous one's and everyone else, including all others who consider themselves "Christian" are on a one way trip to Hell.

You should be thankful the consider you a non Christian after reading about what some say about the rest of us Christians.

To Rich:

Sever have asked for your opinion and all you give is references. Not answering a simple question just ticks off people who ask and does nothing but harm your testimony.

If you were to ask me a machining question, a subject I know a lot about I would not reference you to a page in the Machineries Handbook but rather do my best to answer your question in a straight up and adult way.

My advice would be to answer their question or disengage from the subject. You attitude is more shooting yourself in the foot that furthering the message of Christ. Just my thoughts on the subject.

Can't disagree.......the Pope says a lot of things. I'm certainly not going to argue that In a "good" Catholic: I swear too much, work on Sundays, etc. I try to do right by my family, friends, community and strangers to the best of my ability. I figure the rest will sort itself out.

My dad's blood screams out for a "good" death so the Valkyries will carry me to a great mead hall........does anyone know for sure?

George

antelope_sniper,

Do you have one recorded?

NH K9,



1 John 5:13
"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."

Notice I quoted the Pope, and didn't presume to speak for you. After all, for an LE, you seem to be a pretty reasonable guy.

The mead hall sounds a lot more fun to me then sitting around playing harps.

Anyone else for Valkyries dancing on the tables?

It's called Youtube. Owned by Google.

You should try it sometime.

That was a Gus reference, no need to throw Bible verses at me.....

Scott F,



I am sorry God's Word bothers them. I get my opinion from God's Word. Whenever I get a Bible question I answer with the Bible. Ask my opinion about things that are not absolute and I will give the opinion I hold at the time.



The Machineries Handbook is not in the league of the Bible. A guy at wanted me to teach him some stuff about machining. I told him, "I am a self taught guy who would refer you to Keven up stairs. Keven is a professional machinist with schooling and years of experience. Ask him."



My testimony is the Word of God.

You really should listen to Scott.

It was very good advise.

Of course I read them, but you knew that...

You aren't judging my righteousness are you?

...again...

Kent

NH K9,

Sharing encouragement is not throwing Bible verses. You seemed in an earlier post to doubt your position. I posted the Scripture for your encouragement. Someone did that for me about thirty years ago. I never forgot and figured I would pass along the encouragement.

krp,



I have no way of knowing anything about you except what you post. I didn't have any idea whether you read Them or not, you didn't post you did.

antelope_sniper,



Thanks for the tip. What is the name of the debate?

Perception.......

I'm all set with my relationship:

Just plug in "Bart Ehrman debate"

You will get over 100 hits, several are 2 hours+
There enough video of him debating to keep you busy for several weeks.

I thought so too.

I noticed he mocked my analogy and probably my skill and knowledge as a machinist and still refuses to give an answer.

The jury is still out but I am thinking the ignore function might be of use.

I should take advice from a non-believer about Bible things?

So did you just take away my salvation??? Last post of yours I will read unless someone quotes you.

antelope_sniper,

Thanks.

Scott F,



I have no idea if you are a good machinist or not. What does that have to do with giving a Scripture for a Bible question?

There's reasons why people are leaving the church in droves, especially young people...and it ain't because they're all being pulled away by outside influences. In too many instances, it's because they are being driven away by some of those inside the church.

*** You are ignoring this user ***
Toggle the display of this post

Give it up Rich. This is all I see.

Yep!

I sorta agree. I left the church within five years of becoming a Christian. That was thirty-five years ago. Most Christians are not serious about the Bible.

You flatter yourself...

Kent

Ehrman, again?

See this:

thecolbertreport.cc.com/videos/lywaay/bart-

Ehrman is a media success and a scholarly failure. Read up on his work and you see virtually everything he says is easily refuted. He preys upon weak ill informed minds.

TF

Not true. Clearly not since Vatican II (1964)

It seems obvious to me that Ringman has revealed himself to be a Heavyweight on what the Bible SAYS, but a Lightweight on what it MEANS.

He can copy and paste but not explain. He's wordy without saying anything. He judges from ignorance of past words rather than insight of present and future spirit.

Kent

• Jesus did not speak English.

• None of His apostles spoke English.

• None of them wrote anything in English.

• No part of the Bible was originally written in English.

• There are many mistranslations in the Bible
(some intentional [political correctness],
some unavoidable [linguistic complexities]).

• The meanings of many English words in the Bible
have changed since those long-gone days of
King James's English.

• Many key English words in the Bible have several
meanings — not inevitably what a modern reader so easily
takes 'em to mean.

• What counts — today as much as then —is
what the original words meant
to their speakers, writers, hearers, and readers then.

This and Amen!

I think someone wrote a book on that called "Misquoting Jesus"??

Tell us what "He who has believed and has been baptized will be saved," means. I thoroughly enjoy Bible conversation.

Yep, it is Ehrman that is doing most of the "miquoting" and pouring how own meaning into the words of others.

He is nothing more than wannabe media sensation selling his books to atheists and other maligners. Ehrman, his "ax to grind" bias and his poor scholarship are exposed in Timothy Paul Jones book: "Misquoting Truth: A guide to the Fallacies of Bart Ehrman's 'Misquoting Jesus."

The truth is out there if one is looking for it. If not, you can go with whatever suits your itching ears.

TF

btw... one of the more interesting refuting of Ehrman is on his claim that only in the Book of John does Jesus claim to be divine. Look as how he chooses his words and how he imports his own interpretation to those words and then ignores all the references to the divinity of Jesus in Matthew, Mark and Luke.

The guy is simply a salesman who has a pitch and found a gullible audience.

He's just the most accessible PHD on the subject. You may not like him because he show's the Bible is not what you think it is, but it doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of his positions are consistent with the mainstream on textual criticism.

Wide is the way that leads to distruction.

I guess it's non-sequitur hour again.

Did Christ ever baptize with water?

Kent

It means that those who have believed and been baptized will be saved.

Pretty simple, huh?

But that one short sentence DOESN'T say anything about those who have believed but haven't been baptized.

I think in his mind, he just pronounced you as hellbound.

Re: Ehrman

Here is a quote by an author who goes on to expose the inadequacies of Ehrman scholarship:

"Bart Ehrman’s Misquoting Jesus seeks to fill a market niche by being a book written for people who know nothing about textual criticism."

TF

If Ehrman is the only thing that my post brings to mind, you're missing or side-stepping the point and unaware of its significance.

Horribly.

Im thinking the Lord said something about being baptized by fire. (See, He even predicted the Campfire).

So, I have to think He referred to someone who believed in Him and stuck with believing in Him no matter the adversity, would be saved without water baptism.

Your quoted author also said:

"There is much that is true and correct in this book and which should cause constructive reflection amongst those who believe in the verbal inspiration of Scripture."

When a person writes about another person, they are drawing" word pictures" of that person. When several people have written about the same person, the picture gets larger and has more detail.

Even without my friend Ken's knowledge of the languages of the bible, it's ridiculous to believe that Jesus established an unyielding protocol that must be followed before we could avail ourselves of the Abundant Life He provided for us. That idea just don't fit the picture.

After all, He's the One who condensed all the Law and the Prophets into two simple commandments, and reserved His harshest criticisms for those who added all sorts of rules and regulations for His people.

Water baptism, like ALL the other sacraments and creeds, are for the benefit of believers who are so inclined, not commandments of God.

krp,



John 4:1-2
"Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John. (Although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were)...."

I'll let you decide.

curdog4570



If Jesus told His disciples to do something was it a command or suggestion?

Why are you asking me?

Ask Him.

curdog4570,

Sorry, man, I addressed it to the wrong person. It should say krp.

Does Christ personally baptize?

Kent

curdog4570,,

It looks like another mistake. You mention something about the sacraments. I was directing the question to you because you brought it up.

And he told you you were asking the wrong person... Ask 'him'...

Kent

bibliolatry, bibliolatrist, n. —bibliolatrous, adj.
/bib'lee ol"euh tree/, n.
excessive reverence for the Bible as literally interpreted.
[1755–65; BIBLIO- + -LATRY]

(Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary)

— id est, undue regard for the Bible itself — especially as privately interpreted.

I read where Jesus told His disciples to "Do this in remembrance of Me." Is that a command or suggestion? Do we have a Bible student who will tell me what they think?

Command? Why are you adding adjectives to verse if you claim it's literal?

Kent

A couple of comments:


Ehrman begins to get lost when he shifts from a critical examination of the texts (he is a textual expert) to interpretation of what the textual variations mean and their impact on theology. It is here that Ehrman breaks down. His unusual and biased conclusions regarding true textual difficulties is where critics of Ehrman have a heyday. While an expert in the technique, he goes astray when he derives philosophical conclusions that are not supported.

From a critic:

“It's natural to assume that an expert in a very specialized field is also an expert in general. That's a mistaken assumption, however. Dr. Ehrman's work has been invaluable to me as a check to my particular prejudices, but I would not take any of it without critical examination. His style of writing in his popular books allows him to move very subtly from his considered opinions on the history of the text to his less reliable opinions on the consequences of that history. This unfortunate tactic prevents me from wholeheartedly recommending Bart Ehrman's books.”

`
TF

krp,



I didn't add anything. I asked a question.

Does Christ personally baptize?

Kent

He will never answer. He has no opinion to post. I gave up on him after he revoked my salvation. Ignore is my friend.

I do remember some quote I remember reading somewhere about stiff necked people. I think you may be dealing with one.

Great point.

Bibliolatrist posting on this thread blindly sinning against the God that he so fervently wants to cleave unto.

Irony

I got him in a bind, his other problem is he can't comprehend written word... I still don't think he knows who him is.

Let alone a verse...

Kent

krp,



If you apply the Words of the New Testament to us today, you find your answer here.
Matthew 3:11
"He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

And if we receive the Holy Spirit before water baptism?

Kent

krp,



I don't understand the question. What are you asking?

Note that there is no question of Ehrman's critical examination of the text. His examinations raised the unavoidable questions to the claim that the Bible is the invariant word of a perfect God. At the most basic level, inconsistencies in the text (identified for anyone to see for themselves) are inconsistent with a perfect God.

Of course you don't...

Kent

krp,



So then the question was not seriously asked. Of course.

Now you really flatter yourself...

If you don't understand the question it wasn't serious.

Kent

krp,



That's not it. If you were seriously asking a question you would clarify what you were after. What I see is a poster stuck in Luke 11:53-54.

So, you liken yourself to Jesus and I'm a pharisee.

Kent

krp,



If you say so. Once at work one of my co-workers was doing what you are doing. There was another worker, a lady, who rolled her eyes at the continued badgering. Finally I asked him if he was trying to trap me in something I might say. He sheepishly said, "Yes." He apologized and we became good friends.

We won't be friends... I don't care a chit about you... I just show you for what you are... And leave a counterpoint for those thinking you represent Christ's life message...

And reject him for it.

Kent

krp,



You are tell me and those reading this conversation you represent Christ's life message?

I don't understand "And reject him for it." What are you trying to say?

Your obtuseness is faked or epic...

You're been put on ignore by ScottF...

You can't be marginalized more than that...

Kent

Two things to consider here: "Above all thing, love one another."

"All fall short....", meaning all are wrong in some things.

"All fall short" — "sin" (as inborn human nature)
literally (in the original NT Greek) means being less than God
and unable to equal God.

krp,



Between those two, it is epic.

But there is at least one other option. You really aren't interested in communicating a clear message.



Here's the problem with you statement. Even Scott F couldn't just put me on "ignore". He had to brag about it and try to gouge me like I am important or something.

Let us consider

…28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29"Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either

And then there is this

14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

As we see, PTL, there is power in the word. The Word is Jesus, but also, being made in His image there is also this:


Our words have the power to destroy and the power to build up (Proverbs 12:6). The writer of Proverb tells us, “The tongue has the power of life and death, and those who love it will eat its fruit” (Proverbs 18:21). Are we using words to build up people or destroy them? Are they filled with hate or love, bitterness or blessing, complaining or compliments, lust or love, victory or defeat? Like tools they can be used to help us reach our goals or to send us spiraling into a deep depression.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/power-of-words.html#ixzz3V8TbEnJF

Two biggest faiths are Republican and democrat.

Maybe it's time for Christians to focus on what we have in common and let God sort out the rest. It is no witness for Christ to tear one another apart because we don't interpret every scripture in the bible in the same way.

There is coming a day when we won't care about what denomination someone is, or whether they are Protestant or Catholic. We will be standing together as renewed Christians in these last days, and as persecution for Christians becomes more and more a reality in our own country. The sifting of the wheat is taking place [Matthew 3].

Faith of our Fathers! We will love
Both friend and foe in all our strife —
And preach Thee too, as love knows how,
By kindly words and virtuous life.

Faith of our Fathers, holy faith —
We will be true to thee …

— 'til we log-in to “Hunter's Campfire.”

Yes it is and He did, but that Guide is as Gentleman, when ignored or asked to leave. Makes many believe He never conversed, though it's not hard for such to believe what they want. In fact, for the sake of their faith, it's essential.

Most excellent post. Quite true and quite sad in some aspects but exceeding joy in the aspects that should be the focus.

Yep.

I think the third book in John, covers this much better. Misinterpretation of what is so obviously being said, is a sidestep you always make over that cliff of dogma.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Baptizing with water is an external expression of an internal reality: baptism in the Spirit of God. It is a demonstration (work)of faith, presented as much or more for non-believers, as it is for believers. It is a very good thing to do, but not essential for salvation.

Nailed it!

Thanks. As do you.

Believing 101, but a high hurdle for the legally inclined.

RickyD,



Where were the non-believers Acts Ten? How 'bout Acts 16 when the jailer and his family were baptized in the middle of the night?

Believing 101, but a high hurdle for the legally inclined.

See also: bibliolatry, bibliolatrist, n. —bibliolatrous, adj.
/bib'lee ol"euh tree/, n.
excessive reverence for the Bible as literally interpreted.
[1755–65; BIBLIO- + -LATRY]

(Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary)

— id est, undue regard for the Bible itself — especially as privately interpreted.

RickyD,

If I remember correctly you posted Scripture in an earlier post to support your position. Did I make a mistake there?

Mistakes and you are likely, when considering the meaning of scripture.

Have you determined out if Jesus baptized anyone yet? Don't take on too much. Work on that for a while. We'll wait.

I thought that question was answered earlier by my post re baptism by fire.

Sorry Friend, I didn't see that post. It likely was.

Water baptism, like the wafer and wine, are ACTIONS which appeal to our sensible and emotional parts, they do not affect the Spiritual part of us. Because the baptism of the Spirit takes place internally, doubt as to it's Source and efficacy will plague us at times, especially when our intellect remains unsatisfied. Rattler hinted at that in an earlier post on this thread.

But.... no one can alter the fact that at a certain time, in front of at least one witness, we performed an action which duplicates externally what happened internally. Remembering that action can help cast out doubt.

The taking of Communion serves the same purpose. It is an ACTION which serves as a reminder that we are not as we once were.

Just as some benefit from organized fellowship with like minded believers, there are others - depending on their personality type, I think - who are not drawn to the sacraments or church membership.

They are not lesser or greater. They are not even different in God's eyes, I believe.

You covered it much better, whereas i thought i had given an adequate clue. Since you spelled it out there should be no doubt.

However, i suppose if one believes they will go to hell for not taking the dive, there is also scripture telling them to do so, whether He commanded it or not. One mans meat....

For how many centuries did he Catholic Church claim children went to Purgatory if they died before their water Baptism?

I dont know, AS. 2 or 3 million? I think its what He says that matters, not vain and fallacious men.

But of course, you prefer to castigate Him for the shortcomings of sinful men. Well, you just thrash Him twice to make sure He pays the price for allowing men to live who are not nice.

I didn't mention God in my above post. I just demonstrated how some of the opinions posted here where at variance with long held Church teaching, and the early teachings are at variance with the current Church teachings. Of course those teaching were some men's interpretation of God's word, much like those here who claim to know the will of God. This all just goes to beg the question, What do you really know about his will?

"For how many centuries did he Catholic Church claim children went to Purgatory if they died before their water Baptism?"

I wouldn't know. You COULD ask a Catholic, but all of 'em that I know would tell you it just ain't so, regardless of what their church said about it.

After two thousand years of people devoting their lives to noodling it out you're surprised there have been changes? Not in the basic truths, they are unchanging, but in all the ancillary stuff left to men to figure out.

antelope_sniper,



Here's the problem with some here. They can't use Scripture or they will be hypocrites for calling me a biblolater. Life on the 'fire is so much fun.

Just how does a person properly use "Scripture" (heavy material) and how does one know that he is doing so properly?

"What do you really know about his will?"

I have no idea what His will is for you, or for anyone other than myself. He reveals that to me day by day, sometimes minute by minute.

Apparently He wants me to be content and at peace with myself since that is my usual state. That's a far cry from the way I was the first forty three years of my life.

CCCC,

See post above. Maybe after two thousand years of the best heads worrying over it they can give you some clues.

Content and at peace.

That's a good description of me as well.

Proper: As a guide for personal belief and personal behavior, if so incline.

Improper: Anything outside of Proper.

yep.

antelope_sniper,



No one else is giving Scripture so I will. This is the only One I know Which actually uses the words "will of God" that I can remember.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-8
For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification. So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.

We'd just be one big happy caliphate, if not for the Catholic church.

Good point.

However that begs a big question. So much of Islam is ripped off from Judaism and Christianity, it's doubtful that without them Islam would have ever emerged.

Now there is a thought to ponder. I am just guessing but I think you may be right.

On the other hand, it is clear to me islam is of Satan and may have prevailed anyway.

Does this mean you don't celebrate First Amendment day?

antelope_sniper,

I read a book by an imam. He has a Ph.D in world religions. He graduated number two in a class of 6,000 from Cairo University. He said Mohammad was taught by a demon what to teach and say. The demon would be quite familiar with Judaism and Christianity.

Islam wasn't always such a backward, anti-progess, messed up religion. Up until the 1100's it was actually very progressive, then along came Abū Ḥāmid Muḥammad ibn Muḥammad al-Ghazālī and it's been screwed up beyond belief ever since.

I don't believe in an anit-christ, but if there ever was one, this asshat was it.

Does the 1st need a special day to celebrate it?

I thought every day we could post on the Fire was First Amendment day?

It may go all the way back to Abraham. Ishamel as I recall was the older brother of Issac. I recall that Moslems claim thier heritage back to Ishmael and in turn to Abraham. Thus Abraham could be considered, by some, as the start of both Jews and Moslems.

Some one with more knowledge can chime in here.

TF

Approximately exactly.

You ask Ringman.

carbon12 posted:

“Note that there is no question of Ehrman's critical examination of the text. His examinations raised the unavoidable questions to the claim that the Bible is the invariant word of a perfect God. At the most basic level, inconsistencies in the text (identified for anyone to see for themselves) are inconsistent with a perfect God.”

Two comments here: First, “inconsistencies in the text…. are inconsistent with a perfect God.” How would you know or how could you know what a “perfect God” would deliver to his church? Are you supposing to know what a “perfect God” would give? Or, is the product, not something YOU think a “perfect God” would provide? One should take care in judging God because He does something WE don’t like or agree with.

Second: Consider this comment by another .scholar:

New Testament specialist Daniel Wallace notes that although there are about 300,000 individual variations of the text of the New Testament, this number is very misleading. Most of the differences are completely inconsequential -- spelling errors, inverted phrases and the like. A side by side comparison between the two main text families (the Majority Text and the modern critical text) shows agreement a full 98% of the time. Of the remaining differences, virtually all yield to vigorous textual criticism. This means that our New Testament is 99.5% textually pure. In the entire text of 20,000 lines, only 40 lines are in doubt (about 400 words), and none affects any significant doctrine.

So, if choose to believe the opportunist selling books to those who want to discredit the Bible, you are free to do so. But you do so in error.

TF

That's not a big question. That's a silly question desperate to demean, or abjectly ignorant of history. The big question, then, is, how does anyone know so little about the creation of islam in this decade?

Your assaults on Christianity do no damage but to yourself. No one's ever does. That might tell you something, if you can utilize intellect, rather than agenda.

Why no. It should be celebrated everyday. Particularly, in defiance of those who would curtail such essential liberties.