Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Experiments versus Experience... A Philosophy Thread

If a guy has a heart attack and fails to follow his Doctor's suggested program for avoiding another one, is the Doctor at fault? Does it prove that Doctors are ineffective against heart problems?

This is a quote from THE authoritative book on alcoholism:

"Those who do not recover are people who cannot, or will not, completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves."

It's really very simple.... those who follow this simple spiritual program recover.

It's the 28 day "treatment centers" that account for the relapses.

"Now design your experiment that would either prove, or falsify your God."

Before doing that, I need to know something about you since you would necessarily be a participant in the experiment.

So... one question....... Do you believe the scientists who claim there may be other "worlds" with more dimensions than we have? Ones where our physical laws don't apply?

I understand they came by this idea by following the math.

Thanks for playing but you didn't answer a damn thing.

Thanks, Gene – a very thought-provoking post up front and some very thoughtful replies, including yours. By your life, I see that you are a Christian.

Of course, argument can be fun and entertaining. At this point, I can't recall all of the solid posters in this thread – and feel no need to comment on those persons, their methods or their positions – but do appreciate those that are reasoned and respectful. Of course, such attributes only enable graceful discourse and some clear thought – no proofs or “victories”.

It looks as though we all have our own ways and values for addressing the crucial issues involved with a Christian life on earth. Fortunately, God has given instruction and means for those who seek such. Those who do not seek are unlikely to get it. Some who don't get it will try to use God's statements of laws/principles/promises/assurances to undermine, trap or shame even the quietest of professing Christians. Why?

It seems that many Christians cannot be very true and effective by taking a narrowly-defined approach to those around them – particularly those who have chosen to not believe. I know no “one size fits all” method endorsed by God for reaching out to unbelievers. Your comment about consistently seeking the will of God is important. God gives us opportunities to reveal and illuminate the wonders of the Christian life – be those Scriptures, logical discussions, experiences, experiments, or whatever. But, those are His moments and we are fortunate if we identify and proceed as led.

In my very limited vision, no scientific action – no matter how elegant and sophisticated nor how fraudulent; no argument – no matter how super logical or grossly simple; no witness of experience – pro or con the existence and power of God; and no other action conceived by mankind will settle this hash. God has spoken. It all is there. If God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are to be revealed as made known in His Word, how then should we live? God, help me.

curdog4570,



Teaching all the council of God's Word is sufficient to get them into Heaven. I hope the following helps.

Water Baptism

November 24, 1994 edited July 12-13, 1996

BAPTIZE! WHEN?

A local pastor came to visit. While we discussed different aspects of the Christian life, we came to baptism. He told us about one of his parishioners who spoke of being a Christian. When asked when she was baptized, she told him it was not necessary. He then mentioned,
"If it was good enough for Jesus, isn't it good enough for you?" She agreed and was baptized. This is a nice argument for baptism. The sad thing is the pastor did not know the significants of baptism. He wanted her to do it just because church people do it; and that’s O.K.

But he was not taught the significants of baptism, consequently she was not. The pastor where I attended church for a few years told me,
"I have been a Christian for twelve years, and I haven’t been baptized." Obviously he would not teach the significants of baptism.
About twenty years ago, a fellow came to visit me. Anyone who has done that knows we are going to spend a lot of time looking into and discussing God's Word. The subject of baptism came up. He started without asking me what my position was by emphatically stating,
"You have a distorted view of baptism." Since we hadn't even discussed this subject, I was surprised by his accusation.
"Let's consider what the Bible has to say about that subject,” I challenged. We spent the next few hours on the subject. He changed his opinion of baptism and me.

Perhaps the following study about baptism can challenge the interested into a better understanding of what God's Word teaches about it.
The Old Testament appears silent to me regarding the word "baptize" or "baptism”. Therefore, we will start in Matthew. Some people understand that if something is recorded in the Bible more than something else, it is more important. I do not hold that opinion. Recorded in God's Word is the statement, "'Indeed God speaks once or twice, no one notices it.'" How many times does It say, "And the Word became flesh."? Yet the church generally has no trouble believing that the Word became flesh, lived, died, and resurrected Himself among men. Although Jesus never sinned, it was imperative for Him to be baptized. He said,
"'in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.'" Why did Jesus use the pronoun "us" in this passage? Was he referring to John and Himself? The quotation comes from Matthew 3:13-15. God's Word says,
"Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. But John tried to prevent Him, saying 'I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?' But Jesus answering said to him, 'Permit at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.'"

To find out how many Jesus was including when He said "us", we need only to stay in the book of Matthew. The last statement of Jesus recorded by Matthew is found in Matthew 28:19-20. Quoted here:
"'Go therefore and make disciples of all nations baptizing them into the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you all the days, even to the end of the age.'"

Even to the casual reader, it is clear that Jesus is including "disciples of all nations." Perhaps we can say since
"He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking on the form of a bondservant, being made in the likeness of men." (Philippians 2:6-7), that Jesus made a mistake about baptism. My pastor thought so. I hear radio and television preachers allude to that idea regularly. So, then, just how can we know if it really is an important part of the Christian experience? Those who have not elevated Jesus to the position which the Father has should read what the Father wrote by inspiration of the Holy Spirit in Philippians 2:9-11. His Word says,
"Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee would bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of the Father."

We will now see what the commentary of the Father was about Jesus' baptism. In Matthew 3:17 we find
"a voice out of the heavens, saying, 'This is My Son, the Beloved, in Whom I am well pleased.'"
It is obvious then that the Father approved, no! rather greatly approved, of the action by His beloved Son. In Matthew the Father addresses the crowd of observers. Mark and Luke inform us that the Father speaks to His Son. We don't know if He told the Son of His pleasure before He notified the crowd. We can rest assured that everyone was aware of God's joy. There is another time when the Father spoke to Jesus. It shows us clearly of the humanity of Jesus and the submission to the Father while in His subservient role. John 12:27-29 says,
"'Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, "Father, save Me from this hour?" But for this purpose I came to this hour. Father, glorify Your name.' There came therefore a voice out of heaven: 'I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.' The multitude therefore, who stood by and heard it, were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, 'An angel has spoken to Him.'"
Clearly, the Father responds to the Son in a positive manner.
In Matthew 28:19-20 we see some of Jesus’ last Words prior to His ascension:
“And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, ‘All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.’”
How did Jesus teach His disciples to make disciples?

I was once talking with a man who claimed God's Word is true. He just had many reservations about what constitutes God's Word. An example he gave was Mark 16:9-20. He said, as we discussed these verses,
"These verses are not found in some of the oldest manuscripts."

“Wow, I have never heard that before. Will you repeat that?” I asked. I asked him to repeat what he just said so that both of us would know exactly what he said. He repeated,
"Sure. These verses are not found in some of the oldest manuscripts."
"Then these verses are found in some of the oldest manuscripts, aren't they, based on your statement?"
"Well, yes, I guess so," he said.
"Good, then!" I said, "because if they didn't belong in the Bible the Infinite God would not have given them the prestigious position of being in His Word. For near the end of these very verses God's Word says, referring to Jesus,
"'And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."'" Mark 16:15-26

Before going any further, let me challenge the reader with a couple of sentences. If you open the book and read it, you can get the information. But, if you do not open the book, you will not get the information. How about, If you pick up the binoculars and look through them you can see distant objects. But, if you do not pick up the binoculars you cannot see distant objects. If you pick up the glass of water and take a drink, you can quench your thirst. But, if you do not pick up the glass, you cannot quench your thirst. One can see both actions are required. There are some who will say, "But Jesus did not say, ‘He who has disbelieved and has not been baptized shall be condemned.'" Why in the world would anyone be concerned with something Jesus did not say? We should not concern ourselves with what Jesus does not say. There is enough of what Jesus does say for us to correct our lives and the lives of those whom God grants us to influence. But just to answer this statement, one needs only to look at the previous verse. Jesus said "believe and be baptized", if I might paraphrase, so we already know that they are not saved. In John 3:15-18, Jesus uses the word "believe" five times in conjunction with eternal life. And again at the end of the chapter, John the Baptist said,
"'For He Whom God has sent speaks the Word of God; for He does not give the Spirit by measure. The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.'"(John 3:34-36) Jesus said, "'He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved.'"

This gives the new believer something to do, as soon as possible, that he knows will please both the Father and the Son! Was it not the first thing recorded about Jesus to show His start as the Christ? Should one do any less than Jesus, the Son of God, did in one's own start as the follower of God's Christ? Jesus was a sinless man and pleased His Father. Should a sinful person not try to emulate Jesus, so that he might please the Father?

Is the new believer working to get God's blessing? No. He has God’s gracious blessing by believing in His Son. He is now trying to do as Jesus, our example, has done. And Jesus said,
"'Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one iota or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished.'"Matthew 5:17-18 [Reader, please see essay on the Law.]

Jesus was not the least bit concerned with being called "legalistic". If we are to be like Jesus, we should not concern ourselves with this accusation, either. For Jesus says,
"And He Who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.' As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him. Jesus therefore was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, 'If you abide in My Word, you are disciples of Mine; and you shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall make you free.'"John 8:29-32
We need to be like Jesus and "do the things that are pleasing" to the Father.

In the Passages that tell us about the baptism of Jesus, we see the Holy Spirit coming upon Him. Some would take these few Passages to teach that one cannot receive the Holy Spirit unless he is baptized first. In the three places that I have chosen to use, the Holy Spirit does descend on Jesus, the Son of God, in bodily form: That is in Matthew 3:16 "...the Spirit of God descended as a dove", Mark 1:10 "...the Spirit like a dove descending", and Luke 3:22 "...the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove", God shows us this happening after the baptism. When we don't use as much as we can find, using God's Word on any particular subject, we may become guilty of distorting the Scripture like Satan did when he tempted Jesus. This can have grave consequences. Look at 2 Peter 3:14-16. God, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, says through the apostle,

"Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord: Salvation. Just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction."
We should be careful not to put God into a box that He has not chosen. He has, by His Word, limited Himself to act in a prescribed way according to Scripture. For He says in Psalm 138:2
"For You have magnified Your Word above all Your name."
And again in Titus 1:2
"...in the hope of eternal life, which God, Who cannot lie promised long ages ago."
We shall look at some examples from the beginning of the "Church", the "Church of God", "General Assembly and Church of the First Born", or "Church of Christ". These are all from the New Testament to describe the group of individuals who walk in the "Way". Acts 8:13-20 gives us a surprise look at some of the new believers. The person here called Simon was a sorcerer and "astonished them with his magic arts."
"And even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip; and as he observed the signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed. Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the Word of God, they sent them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money, saying, 'Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.' But Peter said to him, 'May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!'"
This group received the Holy Spirit after believing and being baptized.

The next group will receive the Holy Spirit and then be "ordered" or "commanded" to be baptized. It is related to us in Acts 10. I am hard pressed not to elaborate on the appearance of God being bribed in verse four. Finances are the only area of which I am aware we may Scripturally "test" God. See Malachi 3:10. We will start at verse one and go to verse eight of Acts Ten.
"Now a certain man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, a devout man, and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the people, and prayed to God continually. About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had come in to him, and said to him, 'Cornelius!' And fixing his gaze upon him and being much alarmed, he said, 'What is it, Lord?' And he said to him, 'Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God. And now dispatch men to Joppa, and send for a man, Simon, who is called Peter; he is staying with a certain tanner, Simon, whose house is by the sea.' And when the angel who was speaking to him had departed, he summoned two of his servants and a devout soldier of those who were in constant attendance upon him, and after he had explained everything to them, he sent them to Joppa."
We will skip to verses twenty eight and twenty nine to show what happened when Apostle Peter arrived.
"And he said to them, 'You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean. That is why I came without even raising any objection when I was sent for. And so I ask for what reason you have sent for me.'
After they inform Apostle Peter, we pick up the action where he responds. That is verse thirty four:

"And opening his mouth, Peter said, 'I most certainly understand that God is not One to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and works righteousness is welcome to Him. The Word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of All) you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed."

Skipping down to verse forty-four and finishing the chapter at verse forty eight, God's Word says,
"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the Word. And all the believers from among the circumcision who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also. For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 'Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we, can he?' And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days."

It is abundantly clear that the apostle, who had learned from the Master the significants of baptism, wanted them to be baptized in water. Here we have the opposite chronology compared to the first example. These two should show that God is sovereign and works His will in His way. For God's Word says in, Ephesians 1:11, that God "works all things after the counsel of His will."
Remember Mark 16:16? Jesus said,
"'He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved.'"
Notice the chronology? Jesus, The Word of God, said, "Believe and then be baptized." It will do no good to be baptized until one believes. Jesus established the way salvation is to be dispensed. In Acts 2 the apostle was speaking the words of eternal life to a group which believed the sermon. In response to the question by some believers, found in verse thirty seven,
"'Brothers, what shall we do', Peter said, 'Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself.'"(Acts 2:38-39)

First the group believed. Then, and not before, did he instruct them to repent and be baptized. It would do no good to baptize an unrepentant sinner. This is supported by 1 Peter 3:21. It reads,
"And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”
It is difficult to appeal to One in whom one does not believe. What is the result of the belief?
"So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and there were added that day about three thousand souls."(Acts 2:41)
In Acts 16:13-15, 25-33 & 18:8 we have more examples of belief with baptism immediately following. In the first of these examples Paul was speaking to a group of women beside a river. The Lord "opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul" and she and her household believed and were baptized that day. In the next example, Paul and Silas were in jail. Even though they had been beaten and were in chains, they were able to sing unto the Lord. God made an earthquake and opened all the cell doors and the bonds holding the apostles. The jailer
"called for lights and rushed in and trembling with fear, he fell down before Paul and Silas, and after he brought them out, he said, 'Sirs, what must I do the be saved?' And the said, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.'"(Acts 16:29-31)
In verse thirty three we're informed that,
"he took them that hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his."

NO DELAYING BAPTISM: IT IS PART OF THE CONVERSION PROCESS RECORDED IN THE SCRIPTURE.


WHY BAPTIZE?


To start with, why not? Why does this question even come up? Didn’t Jesus do it? Just why is baptism so important? Well, at work, what ever you do, you have someone telling or asking you to do something. Even if you are the owner, you have customers who want this or that. Some of the things requested or ordered seem to make no sense. We are just suppose to do them. As Christians, we have a Lord. We will not belabor the idea that the modern Americans, with all our rights, have lost sight of what a lord is. Obeying Jesus as Lord is much more difficult than accepting Him as Savior. In Acts 9:31 we may get some idea about Who the Lord is. It says,
"So the church throughout all Judea was having peace, being built up; and going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it continued to increase."

Many, many people want this "fear" to mean reverence or respect. A definition can be garnered from the Words of Jesus. Matthew 10:28 is quite clear that we are not being taught respect or reverence: Jesus said,
"'And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him Who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Now think for a minute or two about a known killer holding a loaded gun on you and your loved ones; and then tell me honestly that Jesus is not talking about knee knocking fear. And again the "unjust judge" shows us in Luke 18:4 that there is a difference in the original language between "respect" and "fear". The verse says,
"'And for awhile he was unwilling; but afterward he said to himself, "Even though I do not fear God nor respect man, yet because this widow bothers me, I will do her justice."'" Jesus said, "Believe and be baptized."

The boss has a tool he can utilize when logic or reason does not suffice: "Do what I say because I am the boss!" Baptism is important because the Lord Jesus Christ made "believe" and "baptize" of equal importance in His statement in Mark 16! So the obedient believer is baptized despite the fact he does not know the significants. One follows Jesus’ example.

No male who is educated about Jewish culture would claim to be a Jew if he were not circumcised. Yet now we have religious people claiming to be Christians without being baptized. Look carefully at what God's Word teaches us that the "circumcision of Christ" is. Colossians 2:8-12 gives a warning, some information about Who Jesus Christ is, and how to be circumcised with the "circumcision of Christ." (Verse eight or verse nine would be fun for the reader to give some thought to.) The Scripture says,
"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete and He is head of all rule and authority; and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, Who raised Him from the dead."

To reiterate the concept of the boss, let me take the reader back a few years to a wood shop where I was plant manager/foreman. There were fifty-five men and women employed there. A new employee was running a ten spindle sander. During her training, I told her, “Do not wear gloves while operating this machine.” While I was in the shop, I noticed she was wearing gloves while operating the machine. I reiterated the instruction, if the machine spindle caught the tip of her glove, she would most likely loose her finger before she could stop the machine. She removed her gloves. Later that day, when I was out in the plant, I noticed she had the gloves on. Again I explained why she should not wear gloves while running that particular machine, and given the opportunity to make her own decision not to wear them. She took the gloves off again. A couple of hours later, I was out in the plant again. What do I see? This lovely creature of God wearing the gloves again! Remembering what God's Word says,
"For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy;"(James 2:13),
she was again reminded of the consequence if the machine spindle caught the tip of her glove. She removed them. I went back into the office. In about two minutes flat, this same young lady came storming into the office and demanded to know why she was not allowed to wear her gloves while operating the ten spindle sander. As politely as if we were engaged in a friendly conversation, I said,
"You cannot wear the gloves because I am telling you you can't, and I'm the boss." She never wore them again on that machine. As obedient Christians we don't have to do things for "the right reason" as some try to teach, we just have to obey the Lord God. For in 1 Samuel 15:22&23 we find this Word:
"'...Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice.'" and "'For rebellion is as the sin of divination (witchcraft), and insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry.'"
Also in Ecclesiastes 12:13 God's Word says,
"The conclusion, when all has been heard: Fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person."
If we have not had the Lord come to us and tell us to go and lay hands on an apostle "that he might regain his sight", we should not be arrogant in thinking Ananias, who had this experience, made a mistake in his instructions to the apostle. In Acts 9 we are introduced to Ananias. In Acts 22, the Apostle Paul relates to some Jews what Ananias said. We will start at verse two and read through verse sixteen.

"And when they heard that he was addressing them in the Hebrew dialect, they became even more quiet; and he said, 'I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated at the feet of Gamalliel, according to the strictness of the ancestral Law, being zealous for God, just as you all are today. And I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and putting both men and women into prisons, as also the high priest and all the Council of the elders testifies for me. From them I also received letters to the brothers, and started off for Damascus in order to bring even those who were there to Jerusalem having been bound to be punished. And it came about that as I was on my way, approaching Damascus about noontime, a very bright light suddenly flashed from heaven all around me, and I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" And I answered, "Who are You, Lord?" And He said to me, "I am Jesus the Nazarene, Whom you are persecuting." And those who were with me beheld the Light, to be sure, but did not understand the voice of the One Who was speaking to me. And I said, "What shall I do, Lord?" And the Lord said to me, "Arise and go on into Damascus; and there you will be told of all that has been appointed for you to do." But since I could not see because of the brightness of that Light, I was led by the hand by those who were with me, and came into Damascus. And a certain Ananias, a man who was devout by the standard of the Law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, came to me, and standing near said to me, "Brother Saul, receive your sight!" And at that very hour I looked up at him. And he said, "The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will, and to see the Righteous One, and to hear a voice from His mouth. For you will be a witness for him to all men of what you have seen and heard. And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on His name."'"
Someone of equal stature in the new church spoke similar words to more than just one person. We have visited this Scripture earlier. On the day of Pentecost, after the Holy Spirit had filled the apostles, they began to speak to a gathering crowd. The size of the crowd is not listed, but the number of new believers was great! Acts 2:41 says,
"So then those who had received his word were baptized; and there were added that day about three thousand souls."
Why were they baptized? Let's look at the section of Scripture just before this.
"Now when they heard, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, 'Brothers what shall we do"' And Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself.'"(Acts 2:37-39)

If belief was adequate in itself, this group was just fine. They believed. But, instinctively they asked, "What do we do?" If belief was the entire salvation story, Peter would have said something like, "That's it folks. There's nothing more. Go in peace." If belief was enough, why did the apostle who was taught by Jesus, THE Boss, tell them to do more. Was he adding to Jesus' Word? Was he adding works to the free gift of Jesus' finished work on the cross?

How much work did you do if you go to the mailbox and discover a free gift there? The gift is a check for $10,000; with a note instructing you to go to your bank, endorse the check and cash it. How much work are you doing when you get into your car and drive to the bank? How about getting out of your car and walking into the bank, are you doing anything to earn the $10,000. When you pick up the pen and endorse the check are you working to earn the money? Continuing, are you doing something to earn the gift when you get out your I.D. and prove you are the legal recipient of the free gift? Are you adding to the finished work of the writer of the check? Of course the answer is the same for every one of the above questions. You are doing nothing to earn the free gift. It’s free. You are adding nothing to the requirements. However, if you want to appropriate the funds of the gift, you must do certain prescribed actions demanded by accepting the free gift. So it is with water baptism.
If belief was sufficient, Apostle Peter added two things: (1) "repent, (2) and let each of you be baptized."
Apostle Paul adds another when he wrote,
"If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord AND believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes to righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses to salvation."(Romans 10:9-10)
The more we study God's Word, the more we find God's gems of Truth. If we ponder the whole of baptism as though we have never heard of it, it may look considerably different from what we have heard or thought or even been taught. We find in 1 John 1:7 that the blood of Jesus cleanses from sin. How do we appropriate that cleansing? 1 Corinthians 11:1 says,
"Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ." Acts 22:16 says to
"Arise, and BE BAPTIZED AND WASH AWAY YOUR SINS, calling on His name." Acts 2:38 instructs us to,
"'Repent and let each of you BE BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS;'"
We employ water baptism in the name of The Lord Jesus Christ to utilize His blood by faith to cleanse us from our sins. So that Romans 6:4 can come alive in us. It says,
"Therefore, we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the Glory of the Father so we too might
WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE."

At this point I don't believe these particular hypothesis have met their burden of proof. Although they produce some nice equations, neither M theory, nor any of it's derivatives have been able to able to produce a testable prediction. All it's accomplished for far is to spend a lot of money on salaries and pencils.

But...... is your mind closed to the POSSIBILITY that their hypothesis may prove to be true?

It's possible, but at this point they have a lot of work to do to convince me. At this point I think it is more likely that particular hypothesis will die out in favor of other, that we many not have even heard of yet, that become better supported by evidence.

Thanks, Paul. I enjoy these types of discussions where each guys opinion counts exactly the same as the rest.

I don't believe I have ever closed my mind to anything I don't have personal knowledge of. I admit being a tad skeptical about alien abductions, for instance, but I can't positively rule all of them out.

And I'll admit that my mind is closed on the question of God's existence.

So I don't believe it is possible for any man to ever completely close his mind on the God question except in the affirmative.

Well, anyone can believe in anything of the world which idea of is confirmed by scientific proof Which is a concern of the physical.

The Spirit is of something spiritual, not physical. The Creator is not limited to purely physical science.

The spiritual life can only be accessible by faith. Without faith, there is no spiritual being, there is only the physical. The physical is the flesh and the flesh is not eternal, but returns to the dust, from which it came.

Says you and yours. Because it helps drown your hearts in syrup of an afterlife.
Me and mine say laws are laws. A creator is bound by physical laws.
And I'm not prostrating myself to Santa for a set of duck wings and an eternity listening to harp music and Gandhi jokes.

Indeed. But more than just millions of sober alcoholics. It's many millions of transformed liars, thieves, fornacators, adulterers, murderers, etc etc that make a VERY persuasive case. True Christianity changes lives dramatically.

Unlike the psudo saved who act like animals?
I don't lie, cheat, steak, kill, ...I don't drink or smoke, cheat on my wife. I pay my taxs, help my neighbors, smile, help strangers...all without the Jesus in my heart.
Wonder why some demon hasn't taken me...uh, cuz day ain't real.

After reading most of this thread, I can't avoid the conclusion that religion doesn't hold a candle to atheism as an opiate for the masses. Here's a hint: take the red pill.

Are you sufficiently educated in the subject to determine the validity of the tests if the proponents of "other dimensions" claim they have "proof"?

Or will you rely on "peer reviews?

After all, any evidence will not be something we can test with our five senses.

Well, no....... it's because you are so "special".

Don't try and label me.
I'm not an atheist, agnostic or practitioner of any religion.
I'm not bound by words on old paper or marks on stone tablets.
I'm a free man able to see and think and believe what I choose.
GOD is soooo much bigger than your god.

Ringman, my question lends itself perfectly to a "Yes",or "No", or "I don't know".

Your "answer" took up half a long page of bible verses interjected with your comments.

I'll try again:

IS WATER BAPTISM NECESSARY FOR SALVATION?

It's the zealot who is forced to ignore new information because it doesn't support their books teaching.
How many people were persecuted over scientific revelations like ...a round planet...sun centered system, multiple galexies, medicine...
Your little Jew god SAID bird blood cured leprosy.