The current consensus is that Leupold is not what they used to be and haven’t been for several years. So my question is what is a good alternative? I am not a long ranges knob twister in any way . All I need is good optics, reliability, decent adjustments without breaking the bank. 2-7, or 3-9, do anything I want. Will spend 500 to 600 bucks for a scope. Not going to put out thousands of dollars for something I don’t need. The wife is really screwed as she was a Nikon freak. One of her old scopes needed repair and she got a voucher toward binoculars. Harder than hell to mount and impossible to sight in.
Sounds like you are in a pickle and so is your wife... A great low cost alternative is the Burris FFII 3-9x40 with the ballistic plex reticle. That is all anyone really needs for most hunting applications. I have several and most of my "go to" hunting rifles have them. Just used one on top of a Tikka T3x 7MM08 a couple months ago on my elk hunt. Worked great, just as per usual.. These scopes are a simple approach for getting the job done and can be had for less than $200. Get one with the ballistic plex reticle, since you aren't a turret twister.
So you drank the campfire Koolaid? This site has more than it's share of Leupold bashers. Interestingly that is not the case on some of the other sources of info. Not trying to change your mind just take what you see with a grain or two of salt.
So you drank the campfire Koolaid? This site has more than it's share of Leupold bashers. Interestingly that is not the case on some of the other sources of info. Not trying to change your mind just take what you see with a grain or two of salt.
Not entirely. Just want to look at other options. So far neither my brother , or I, have an issue with our Leupolds. We both have other scopes, but, have always preferred Leupold since we could afford them. We have never bought the cheapest line and maybe that is why we have had good success.
Unless trying a different load, or moving a scope to a different rifle, we are mostly a set it and forget it family.
Shot a lot, hunt quite a bit, used to shoot archery competition pretty seriously. Have combined to make me fussy about reliability.
So you drank the campfire Koolaid? This site has more than it's share of Leupold bashers. Interestingly that is not the case on some of the other sources of info. Not trying to change your mind just take what you see with a grain or two of salt.
The change in characters on the campfire over the last couple years coincides with the Leupold hate.... I will stick with them until I have issues.
Hmmm..... Leupold is junk, I do not agree..... Your Mileage may vary.
My last rifle scopes purchase was a 3x9-40 AO mil dot Hawke vantage for my 223 bolt gun. Wonderfully clear, tracks very well and rides around in the pick-up and gets the job done everytime.
Have a tru-glow on the 22 mag rifle that I can almost say the same about... Little distortion around edges but hols a zero and itty bitty groups
Leupold isn't anything special in their instruments. What they are is an legacy company or one that has brand recognition. For decades they sat on that and didn't offer anything but duplex and low amount of options till competition moved in. I've always thought Leupold has decent customer service but their products aren't always the best. I'm sure their market share is significantly less than 20yrs ago but that can be a good thing because today there's more choices.
I have Burris scopes and they're fine. Sightron may have what you are looking for. Primary Arms has decent scopes. Your also in a great deal of luck as currently there's a glut ofn1-6x and 1-8x scopes on the market that are compact and in your price range and you can choose FFP or SFP. I would look into one of the 1x-8x low power variable optics and call it a day.
The current consensus is that Leupold is not what they used to be and haven’t been for several years. So my question is what is a good alternative? I am not a long ranges knob twister in any way . All I need is good optics, reliability, decent adjustments without breaking the bank. 2-7, or 3-9, do anything I want. Will spend 500 to 600 bucks for a scope. Not going to put out thousands of dollars for something I don’t need. The wife is really screwed as she was a Nikon freak. One of her old scopes needed repair and she got a voucher toward binoculars. Harder than hell to mount and impossible to sight in.
Go Zeiss, young man! I did that, with the older Conquests, when I just couldn’t take Leupold’s mechanical instability anymore. As good as the older Conquests were, the newer ones are a big step up.
Add a hundie to your budget, and take a look at the demo units (they are brand new, hint) at Red Hawk Rifles. If you want simple, the 3-12x44 rocks. A 4-16x50 V4 will make you think you’ve died and gone to heaven.
A Tract Toric 2-10 would surely be difficult to beat for your stated purpose. A Trijicon Credo would be another option I’d consider. I have a couple Meopta Meopro models, a 3.5-10x44 and a 3-9x42. I don’t have any issue with them, but the glass is not as good as my Tract Toric.
I was in this same spot not long ago looking for a scope for a hunting rifle. There doesn't seem to be much "in the middle" anymore, there's lots of spendy stuff and lots of junk, but not much middle ground.
I said "ah what the heck"and bought a new Leupold, a VX-3i maybe? 2.5x10x50 . I don't remember for sure. I've only fired about 75 rounds with it so not nearly enough to know one way or the other. But one thing's for sure, they're not what they used to be. The feel and finish is cheap. If it had no name on it, you'd think it closer to the junk side of the divide than the spendy side. I wouldn't trade one of my older Leupolds (15-35 years old) for a new one, I don't care what glass advancements they're supposed to have.
Aint what they once were, but not much is anymore and that's a shame.
I like mine as well, I have an older VXII and VXIII that I have never had an issue with. I sold my Burris FFII and Vortex Viper. I replaced them with a VX5 HD and a VX6 HD that I really like alot. I am also pretty impressed with the new Trijicon Credo that I just purchased. Its a really nice scope with very clear glass. Built like a tank.
I’ve been looking at new scopes and the more I look the more I’ve decided to just keep what I’ve got.
I've got 3 or 4 Burris scopes... Rimfires up to the Veracity. They are good scopes. Everyone has their preferences and experiences... Mine's been great with Burris. The key is the customer service.
I had a Leupold a few years ago had the magnification ring seize up. Couldn't turn it. Took a month or two to get back. Really sucked considering it was right before deer season.
I recently worked with a couple of the new Weaver Classics that Natchez Shooters Supply sells.....one a 3-9 and the other a 4-16. Both were solid, had nice optics and the w/e adjustments were solid and repeatable. On the 4-16, the A.O. showed a big sweet spot of parallax correction which is a good indicator of lens alignment. All in all, pretty nice scopes at decent prices. I believe they are mfgd in South Korea.
I think too many reputable companies start turning out sub par products to gain a bigger market share or profit margin. The VX-5 & 6 HD are great scopes, and the Mk 5 I would call a great scope except the price for the illuminated model, which I have. I pulled and sold a SS 5-20 HD for $900 and put the 5-25 Mk 5 on the rifle for $2600 plus tax. Upon reflection I would rather have three SS 5-20s vs the extra magnification and better glass. Better glass is better if you had bad glass, but the 5-20 is no slouch, old technology or not.
Husqvarna bought Poulan and quickly renamed the Poulan Pro as a Husqvarna. It has since ruined the name and you have to see if something was made in Canada or Sweden before you buy.
Nightforce = SHV
Meopta = Optika 6
Zeiss = Conquest Which is actually a great scope but not a Zeiss
These are off the top of my head but the list is long.
I was in this same spot not long ago looking for a scope for a hunting rifle. There doesn't seem to be much "in the middle" anymore, there's lots of spendy stuff and lots of junk, but not much middle ground.
I said "ah what the heck"and bought a new Leupold, a VX-3i maybe? 2.5x10x50 . I don't remember for sure. I've only fired about 75 rounds with it so not nearly enough to know one way or the other. But one thing's for sure, they're not what they used to be. The feel and finish is cheap. If it had no name on it, you'd think it closer to the junk side of the divide than the spendy side. I wouldn't trade one of my older Leupolds (15-35 years old) for a new one, I don't care what glass advancements they're supposed to have.
Aint what they once were, but not much is anymore and that's a shame.
Go Zeiss V4, young man!
I know I already said that but I don’t think you’ll be disappointed. They are made in Japan. The Japanese do not tolerate crappy products with MiJ on them.
The more I shoot, or see others shoot, the less confidence I have in Leupold. Seems like the vast majority of guys I see having fliers or trouble sighting in their rifle has a common denominator a new Leupold or Vortex scope on top. Ask them if they have tried another scope on top and it's always the same thing..."it's a brand new ____ I just mounted. I just haven't found a load it likes"
Burris, older Leupolds, or Weaver fixed for a cheaper option. The SWFA options are tanks. Haven't tried a Tract yet.
I agree with Jeff on the VX3i. That one is not a good representation of what the better Leupolds are capable of.
We have found the newest Leupold's are holding the their own in any circle. We sell at least 50 Leupold to one Night Force and they are flawless for the last 5 years. Night Force has all but fell on their face with the new NX8 models. We have sold 3 of those and once people got to look through them they were done with NF.
It was the VX3 that had the occasional retical at a slight angle but even those (one) if we sent it in on Monday we get a postcard Wednesday saying it would be done in two weeks and then get it back the next day on Thursday. The exact same experience we had with a really old VX3 that the guy kept overtorquing the knobs on till it broke letting the knob spin.
The new ones have the open turrets with a locking button so it can't turn while being carried. They also offer a bunch for FFP scopes for the guys into that sort of thing. I don't compete so SFP works best for me. The glass is so good I never turn it down. My son grew up on Leupold so he never turns any of his scopes down.
Even the low end models compare favorably to scopes that cost 3 times more. The have made the erectors a lot more robust with a lot more spring tension so tracking is right on. The glass is getting better all the time. I really like spending time just looking through it like a spotting scope. I run a VX6 7-42x56 on my 375 Chey Tac. This is my experience with the current Leupold lineups.
Now if they would bring back the US made Gold Ring Binoculars. I don't want to even look at the imported stuff.
Going from leupold to burris probably isn’t the best move if reliability is your goal.
I had a Burris or two when they first came out didn't care for them then....I sure wouldn't buy one now.
Burris started making scopes in 1971, 50 years ago. Please explain how this relates to Burris scopes now, since you have zip experience with them since then.
Going from leupold to burris probably isn’t the best move if reliability is your goal.
I had a Burris or two when they first came out didn't care for them then....I sure wouldn't buy one now.
Burris started making scopes in 1971, 50 years ago. Please explain how this relates to Burris scopes now, since you have zip experience with them since then.
I had 2 brand new Zeiss Conquest go bad just sitting in the gun safe . Brand new scope . Mounted and put it in the safe . Couple months later took it to the range to site it in . It would not track . Sent it back to Zeiss. They replaced it promptly. The replacement did the same thing . I’m done with Zeiss.
I agree with Jeff on the VX3i. That one is not a good representation of what the better Leupolds are capable of.
We have found the newest Leupold's are holding the their own in any circle. We sell at least 50 Leupold to one Night Force and they are flawless for the last 5 years. Night Force has all but fell on their face with the new NX8 models. We have sold 3 of those and once people got to look through them they were done with NF.
It was the VX3 that had the occasional retical at a slight angle but even those (one) if we sent it in on Monday we get a postcard Wednesday saying it would be done in two weeks and then get it back the next day on Thursday. The exact same experience we had with a really old VX3 that the guy kept overtorquing the knobs on till it broke letting the knob spin.
The new ones have the open turrets with a locking button so it can't turn while being carried. They also offer a bunch for FFP scopes for the guys into that sort of thing. I don't compete so SFP works best for me. The glass is so good I never turn it down. My son grew up on Leupold so he never turns any of his scopes down.
Even the low end models compare favorably to scopes that cost 3 times more. The have made the erectors a lot more robust with a lot more spring tension so tracking is right on. The glass is getting better all the time. I really like spending time just looking through it like a spotting scope. I run a VX6 7-42x56 on my 375 Chey Tac. This is my experience with the current Leupold lineups.
Now if they would bring back the US made Gold Ring Binoculars. I don't want to even look at the imported stuff.
I'm glad to hear that the newest crop might be doing better, even if it is in the form of what appears to be a Leupold PSA. I'd like to see them get the ship righted. At the very least, competition in any market is good for the consumer, so I'd hate to see another scope company, especially one with USA roots, go under.
Unfortunately, the issues I've experienced with Leupolds can't be undone. I've moved on, and I've been exceedingly pleased with the products I've moved on to.
Oh just stop it big Ed!!!! Guys like us just don’t hunt hard enough!!! 😂😂
Ctsmith will be along to tell me, my new pioneer 700 is hard on scopes, though me, and several Pards have more miles with leupolds riding on racks than him and every other dumb Alabaman could hope for. That southern huntin is fuucking hard on gear!!!! Haha
So you drank the campfire Koolaid? This site has more than it's share of Leupold bashers. Interestingly that is not the case on some of the other sources of info. Not trying to change your mind just take what you see with a grain or two of salt.
Not entirely. Just want to look at other options. So far neither my brother , or I, have an issue with our Leupolds. We both have other scopes, but, have always preferred Leupold since we could afford them. We have never bought the cheapest line and maybe that is why we have had good success.
Unless trying a different load, or moving a scope to a different rifle, we are mostly a set it and forget it family.
Shot a lot, hunt quite a bit, used to shoot archery competition pretty seriously. Have combined to make me fussy about reliability.
The only issue I have is the Leupold shuffle, I've heard when going to the 5s or 6s that doesn't happen, but I've also had swarovskis that less than impressed, they wouldn't shoot the box either, and had to go back for shifting POI's after sitting idle in a safe. Great glass though.
If you think Leupold makes a $hitty scope, just imagine how bad they would be if they built them to the standard of the average Campfire critic.
The last place to get medical advice, look for experience or find any valuable information is the 24hourcampfire.
Wabigoons, Fireballs, steelheads and any number of other vocal blabbermouths add nothing to the intelligence that continues to evade the Internet.
Oh fuuuck, truth there! Just read the main campfire, or listen/look at the hardcore “hunters” that bitch… I still laugh about a certain member here, “ I had a variII friction adjustment fail on and buck”…. Spin a friction adjustment??? Fuucking really??? Haha 😂😂
Great thing about a swfa, WHEN it fails, who the fuuck know when you’ll get the replacement??? It was just posted, a member has been waiting over a year for his peach…. 😂
Me too. I currently have 6 of them. Some old, some new. Never had a wisp of a problem. But according to this place I must be the luckiest sombeotch to ever draw breath. LOL!
Going from leupold to burris probably isn’t the best move if reliability is your goal.
I had a Burris or two when they first came out didn't care for them then....I sure wouldn't buy one now.
Burris started making scopes in 1971, 50 years ago. Please explain how this relates to Burris scopes now, since you have zip experience with them since then.
Sporting good stores here didn't sell them till the late 1970s they looked good and cost more than a Leupold so I figured they had to be something special....the eye relief was too critical on them to suit me.
About 10 years ago I got a later model Burris on a gun I bought I couldn't sell it fast enough....I put a 10 year old Leupold Varx II 3x9/AO compact on the gun and it's still on there.
I got burnt on a Burris spotting scope years back after I got it I notiiced made in China on it....I still have it it's okay for looking at bullets holes at 100 yards if you don't look very long.
Leupold optics and specs are great. Mechanics are less so, sad to say. IME, single bias-spring models are as vague as ever. The two dual-spring models I had worked well as long as I had them, but so did other brands at significantly lower price points. A brand new 4x RF model, purchased for a Marlin 39, required considerable patience to get it dialed in. Who needs that drama, especially in a time when ammo is hard to find and expensive when you do. WTF don’t they fix their erectors and be done with it?
That 4x was purchased from Doug at a very good price. It’s a perfect match for a .22, but if I’d paid $300 for it, I’d be pretty annoyed by its performance. Shoot, adjust. Shoot again. Adjust. Shoot. Adjust back to where I thought I’d dialed to before. Shoot some more until I’m satisfied it’s finally landed in the right place. Hope and pray I don’t have to readjust for another brand or lot of ammo any time soon. Same story with another Leupy, a 2-7 Shotgun/ML scope on the same rifle before buying the 4x. This isn’t bashing, it’s what I experienced. Imagine the fun if I was using $2 a pop factory CF instead of $.10 .22 LR.
Most of my Leupolds have been older models....I put a newer 3x9 fire dot with CDS on my grandsons Remington BDL .243 I bought him. I put an even newer 1 3/4-5 with with CDS and zero stop on a Ruger 5.56 AR magazine bolt gun I call my Joe Biden AR..
Every adjustment I made on both these newer scopes took without issue.
Fact is out of the 20+ Leupolds I've owned over the years I've never experienced any issues. I had several of those Leupolds on 8 or 10 different guns without issue.
Guess I'm just lucky....or maybe I'm a good shot and know how to read a gun.
I'd say 900% of the game I've shot in the past 35 years was shot with a rifle wearing a Leupold. I will admit to not having bought a new Leupold in the past 15 years, so things may have changed in the later years.
I do know I don't want nor need a 2 pound, 25x scope to kill a deer at 150 yards, and that's about all you can find. I still like fixed power scopes but there aren't many around.
Too many range sessions like those described by Pappy, combined with sudden, magical failures in the field soured me. A lifetime warranty means nothing to me when a scope fails 5 miles in and up 4000 feet on a goat hunt. Then the attitude they displayed when their goons paid us a visit here sealed the deal. My scope purchases since have been Zeiss and Burris. I’d like to try a #4 reticle in either a Kapps 4x or the little Swarovski 3-9 next.
Going from leupold to burris probably isn’t the best move if reliability is your goal.
I had a Burris or two when they first came out didn't care for them then....I sure wouldn't buy one now.
Burris started making scopes in 1971, 50 years ago. Please explain how this relates to Burris scopes now, since you have zip experience with them since then.
Sporting good stores here didn't sell them till the late 1970s they looked good and cost more than a Leupold so I figured they had to be something special....the eye relief was too critical on them to suit me.
About 10 years ago I got a later model Burris on a gun I bought I couldn't sell it fast enough....I put a 10 year old Leupold Varx II 3x9/AO compact on the gun and it's still on there.
I got burnt on a Burris spotting scope years back after I got it I notiiced made in China on it....I still have it it's okay for looking at bullets holes at 100 yards if you don't look very long.
Gee! Now I'm impressed with your vast experience with two Burris rifle scopes!
As far as I'm concerned two or three Burris scopes was enough for me....I owned one Bushnell 3x9 when I was about 14. Wasn't too long before I bought my first used Leupold scope my first taste of European was a Zeiss Diavari 1" 3x9 back in the early 1980s once you hunt with a European scope it's hard to look back.
I actually have more experience in the last 15 years or so with European scopes Zeiss, Swarovski and Schmidt and Bender. I still have a several Leupolds two Swarovskis and two Schmidt and Benders.
If I can afford it I prefer Schmidt and Bender.....costly to put one on every rifle.
As far as I'm concerned two or three Burris scopes was enough for me....I owned one Bushnell when I was about 14.
I actually have more experience in the last 15 years or so with European scopes Zeiss, Swarovski and Schmidt and Bender. I still have a several Leupolds two Swarovskis and two Schmidt and Benders.
If I can afford it I prefer Schmidt and Bender.....costly to put one on every rifle.
You have verified a number of times that you are an idiot. No need to continue with more proof
No actual failures so far, unless you count the etched reticle pigment bleeding over onto the field in a VX-5 HD. But using scopes that adjust like they should kinda spoils you for ones that run you around. No telling how the vagueness affects the accuracy you get, but I’m thinking it can’t help.
While dialing in a Trijicon on my Fieldcraft, I tried out some loads I’d assmbled with 115gr Bergers. They landed in line with the LRXs I’m hunting with, but about 2” lower. With the Accupoint, I feel confident I could just crank in the extra elevation and go hunting with the Bergers if I wanted to. That might work with the VX-5 or the VX-3i I had, but I wouldn’t try it.
During a particularly rough patch at one place I was working overseas, I took an older and very reliable American made Burris 2-7 compact and mounted it on my M4. It got used a more there in 6 months than most scopes would see in lifetimes. It never failed in any way.
I later switched to a Leupold 1.5-5 illuminated LPVO and used that for years in the M.E.
The punchline is though, I have nothing bad to say about the older American made Burris scopes. I also have an older American made set of Burris 12x signature series binoculars that I have been using for 20 years now and have never felt the need to upgrade glass.
As far as I'm concerned two or three Burris scopes was enough for me....I owned one Bushnell when I was about 14.
I actually have more experience in the last 15 years or so with European scopes Zeiss, Swarovski and Schmidt and Bender. I still have a several Leupolds two Swarovskis and two Schmidt and Benders.
If I can afford it I prefer Schmidt and Bender.....costly to put one on every rifle.
You have verified a number of times that you are an idiot. No need to continue with more proof
Scopes aren't fir Dummies. Hint
You ain't kidding jwp......dumbassery on parade with every new post.
As far as I'm concerned two or three Burris scopes was enough for me....I owned one Bushnell 3x9 when I was about 14. Wasn't too long before I bought my first used Leupold scope my first taste of European was a Zeiss Diavari 1" 3x9 back in the early 1980s once you hunt with a European scope it's hard to look back.
I actually have more experience in the last 15 years or so with European scopes Zeiss, Swarovski and Schmidt and Bender. I still have a several Leupolds two Swarovskis and two Schmidt and Benders.
If I can afford it I prefer Schmidt and Bender.....costly to put one on every rifle.
Congratulations in your experience, but apparently you did NOT have experience with "two or three Burris scopes," and actually never even used the second one you acquired.
Right now I own dozens of rifle scopes, from 16 different companies. I own 17 Leupolds, more than any other brand, with Burris in second place at 11. The others include some European brands including Hensoldt, Schmidt & Bender, Swarovski and Zeiss. Probably have owned more Swarovskis and Zeisses than any other Euro brands. Among the newer brands are Nightforce, SWFA and Tract Toric.
Also right now, I have had 20 different brands of scopes fail in one way or another when on my rifles. That is BRANDS, not individual scopes, often multiples in one brand, including some noted European scopes, plus Nightforce. Any scope can malfunction after enough use, though some arrive from the factory "broken." I know this partly because for 30 years now I have been paid to test scopes, and one of the tests is to put them on rifles that recoil at least as much as a .300 magnum, and shoot the rifle considerably.
But the subject here is Leupold scopes--along with Burris. I still own quite a few Leupolds because they suit my purposes on many rifles, especially older Leupolds, some with friction adjustments. The M8 fixed-powers, for instance, are not only light and hold zero once you get them adjusted, but almost never break. Though that has happened a few times, usually by the wire reticle snapping.
Starting about a decade ago I had more Leupolds start to malfunction than ever before--including the FX fixed-powers, which replaced the M8s. At first I welcomed them, because of more consistent click adjustments, but too many didn't hold zero--and I'm not talking about 2-3 inches of shift, but sometimes a foot or more. Sent them back, and at least two were returned by Leupold with a note saying they'd "examined" them and could find nothing wrong. I tried them on the same rifles and they malfunctioned the same way.
So many Leupold scopes started malfunctioning that I eventually was photocopying the repair forms several at a time. Eventually I realized that was ridiculous, so started buying more Burris scopes, especially Fullfield IIs, as "affordable" but reliable scopes for general use. Got my first around 2003, a 30mm model that they then offered as what were then often called "tactical" scopes by many companies, which had very repeatable adjustments. Still have it, and its been on several rifles and the adjustments are still very repeatable. In fact, shot my last big game animal with it a couple weeks ago, using my custom 6.5 PRC.
But also soon tried a basic 1"-tube 3-9x40 Fullfield II, and it also worked well, with far less erratic adjustments than Leupolds in the same price range. When Burris started having them made in the Philippines I got one of those, and compared it to the American-made scope, and the "Asian" model was at least as good in every respect, and in some ways a little better. This was because Burris didn't just ask an overseas company to make a copy of the American FFII, but shipped the machinery to them, and provided instruction in how to use it.
Since then have acquired several more Philippine-made FFIIs, partly because the guys at a local sporting goods store (which sells a LOT of scopes) told me Burris was probably the most reliable brand they carry. In all that time--and a lot of shooting--have only had ONE 3-9x40 FFII malfunction--and that was my first 1" model, made in the USA, which had been on dozens of rifles, often when testing a new rifle, BECAUSE it had been so reliable. Isent it back to Burris and they had it repaired and back to me within two weeks.
I have used more expensive scopes for the same purpose, and some didn't last as long. Others did well--though one Nightforce did eventually need repair, after being used hard as a test-scope on quite a few hard-kicking rifles over 4-5 years. During the same time-frame I had to return several Leupolds for repair, and at least two malfunctioned in the same way when they showed up again.
All of which is why quit buying new Leupolds for a few years, and only used my older, proven ones. Lately they seem to be improving, and in fact have a 2-10x42 5HD that I need to "test-fire," because have heard so many good reports from trusted friends that I have high hopes. In the meantime I'll keep using my older Leupolds (used one of those, a small variable, to take my first big game animal this fall) and Burrises, and other trustworthy scopes to hunt with.
Thanks for being forthright when sharing your experiences. Too often those with your level of industry knowledge and connection do their best to either tap dance around what they know to be an inconvenient truth, or, more frequently, spread deliberate disinformation. I fully understand that one can't bite the hand that feeds; however, as you've exhibited through your writing, in order to remain relevant there needs to be truth in what a source passes off as an experience derived opinion. I learned early on to consider the context whenever factoring in an opinion tendered by someone who has something to gain.
Only thing I didn't like about the older Burris scopes was their eye relief was more critical than a Leupold.
It's true that the eye relief on the Burris FF II scopes is slightly less than comparable Leupolds, but so far I haven't found it a problem on rifles up to 30-06. I haven't used Burris scopes on any really hard kickers though.
The current consensus is that Leupold is not what they used to be and haven’t been for several years. So my question is what is a good alternative? I am not a long ranges knob twister in any way . All I need is good optics, reliability, decent adjustments without breaking the bank. 2-7, or 3-9, do anything I want. Will spend 500 to 600 bucks for a scope. Not going to put out thousands of dollars for something I don’t need. The wife is really screwed as she was a Nikon freak. One of her old scopes needed repair and she got a voucher toward binoculars. Harder than hell to mount and impossible to sight in.
IMHO if you are not a knob twister, stick with Leupold if you liked them in the past.
Sounds like you are in a pickle and so is your wife... A great low cost alternative is the Burris FFII 3-9x40 with the ballistic plex reticle. That is all anyone really needs for most hunting applications. I have several and most of my "go to" hunting rifles have them. Just used one on top of a Tikka T3x 7MM08 a couple months ago on my elk hunt. Worked great, just as per usual.. These scopes are a simple approach for getting the job done and can be had for less than $200. Get one with the ballistic plex reticle, since you aren't a turret twister.
I'd agree 100%. For a normal run around non turret'ed scope, they aren't all that hard to sort out for decent ranges.
During a particularly rough patch at one place I was working overseas, I took an older and very reliable American made Burris 2-7 compact and mounted it on my M4. It got used a more there in 6 months than most scopes would see in lifetimes. It never failed in any way.
I later switched to a Leupold 1.5-5 illuminated LPVO and used that for years in the M.E.
The punchline is though, I have nothing bad to say about the older American made Burris scopes. I also have an older American made set of Burris 12x signature series binoculars that I have been using for 20 years now and have never felt the need to upgrade glass.
I have one of those 2-7 Burris Compact’s and it was on my main bump-in-the-night AR15 for over a decade. Contrary to what was stated above, that particular model has miles of eye relief and is a great “sneaker” scope for an AR. I remember when Art assured us all that Burris scopes had short eye relief. I shone a light through it with a ruler laid down to demonstrate the long eye relief but he still wouldn’t believe his lyin’ eyes.... good times.
I do feel that the 1-4 Zeiss V4 on the rifle now is a substantial upgrade, but the Burris is sitting in my safe awaiting its next mission. I’d never sell that thing. It’s worth waaay more than its “worth”, if that makes sense.
As far as I'm concerned two or three Burris scopes was enough for me....I owned one Bushnell 3x9 when I was about 14. Wasn't too long before I bought my first used Leupold scope my first taste of European was a Zeiss Diavari 1" 3x9 back in the early 1980s once you hunt with a European scope it's hard to look back.
I actually have more experience in the last 15 years or so with European scopes Zeiss, Swarovski and Schmidt and Bender. I still have a several Leupolds two Swarovskis and two Schmidt and Benders.
If I can afford it I prefer Schmidt and Bender.....costly to put one on every rifle.
Congratulations in your experience, but apparently you did NOT have experience with "two or three Burris scopes," and actually never even used the second one you acquired.
Right now I own dozens of rifle scopes, from 16 different companies. I own 17 Leupolds, more than any other brand, with Burris in second place at 11. The others include some European brands including Hensoldt, Schmidt & Bender, Swarovski and Zeiss. Probably have owned more Swarovskis and Zeisses than any other Euro brands. Among the newer brands are Nightforce, SWFA and Tract Toric.
Also right now, I have had 20 different brands of scopes fail in one way or another when on my rifles. That is BRANDS, not individual scopes, often multiples in one brand, including some noted European scopes, plus Nightforce. Any scope can malfunction after enough use, though some arrive from the factory "broken." I know this partly because for 30 years now I have been paid to test scopes, and one of the tests is to put them on rifles that recoil at least as much as a .300 magnum, and shoot the rifle considerably.
But the subject here is Leupold scopes--along with Burris. I still own quite a few Leupolds because they suit my purposes on many rifles, especially older Leupolds, some with friction adjustments. The M8 fixed-powers, for instance, are not only light and hold zero once you get them adjusted, but almost never break. Though that has happened a few times, usually by the wire reticle snapping.
Starting about a decade ago I had more Leupolds start to malfunction than ever before--including the FX fixed-powers, which replaced the M8s. At first I welcomed them, because of more consistent click adjustments, but too many didn't hold zero--and I'm not talking about 2-3 inches of shift, but sometimes a foot or more. Sent them back, and at least two were returned by Leupold with a note saying they'd "examined" them and could find nothing wrong. I tried them on the same rifles and they malfunctioned the same way.
So many Leupold scopes started malfunctioning that I eventually was photocopying the repair forms several at a time. Eventually I realized that was ridiculous, so started buying more Burris scopes, especially Fullfield IIs, as "affordable" but reliable scopes for general use. Got my first around 2003, a 30mm model that they then offered as what were then often called "tactical" scopes by many companies, which had very repeatable adjustments. Still have it, and its been on several rifles and the adjustments are still very repeatable. In fact, shot my last big game animal with it a couple weeks ago, using my custom 6.5 PRC.
But also soon tried a basic 1"-tube 3-9x40 Fullfield II, and it also worked well, with far less erratic adjustments than Leupolds in the same price range. When Burris started having them made in the Philippines I got one of those, and compared it to the American-made scope, and the "Asian" model was at least as good in every respect, and in some ways a little better. This was because Burris didn't just ask an overseas company to make a copy of the American FFII, but shipped the machinery to them, and provided instruction in how to use it.
Since then have acquired several more Philippine-made FFIIs, partly because the guys at a local sporting goods store (which sells a LOT of scopes) told me Burris was probably the most reliable brand they carry. In all that time--and a lot of shooting--have only had ONE 3-9x40 FFII malfunction--and that was my first 1" model, made in the USA, which had been on dozens of rifles, often when testing a new rifle, BECAUSE it had been so reliable. Isent it back to Burris and they had it repaired and back to me within two weeks.
I have used more expensive scopes for the same purpose, and some didn't last as long. Others did well--though one Nightforce did eventually need repair, after being used hard as a test-scope on quite a few hard-kicking rifles over 4-5 years. During the same time-frame I had to return several Leupolds for repair, and at least two malfunctioned in the same way when they showed up again.
All of which is why quit buying new Leupolds for a few years, and only used my older, proven ones. Lately they seem to be improving, and in fact have a 2-10x42 5HD that I need to "test-fire," because have heard so many good reports from trusted friends that I have high hopes. In the meantime I'll keep using my older Leupolds (used one of those, a small variable, to take my first big game animal this fall) and Burrises, and other trustworthy scopes to hunt with.
I put a 1.5-4x20mm Leupold "Freedom" (??) scope on my fun gun - a 400J #1 because my eyes were demanding it. I fully expect it to crap out eventually, but it's still hangin' in there after 100+ rounds and helping me have my fun...
I have one on the way. We'll see what it's all about and will report.
ER is short; we'll see how much of an issue that really is.
Leupolds are good scopes, I have a number.
No problem until there is one....
If they would just admit they have erector issues and fix them, then all would be well, IMO.
But those clowns they rolled out for their PR video were a joke. I was embarrassed for them. They danced around like politicians, never got down to any real issues.
I have one on the way. We'll see what it's all about and will report.
ER is short; we'll see how much of an issue that really is.
Leupolds are good scopes, I have a number.
No problem until there is one....
If they would just admit they have erector issues and fix them, then all would be well, IMO.
But those clowns they rolled out for their PR video were a joke. I was embarrassed for them. They danced around like politicians, never got down to any real issues.
DF
Please keep us posted. Has been on my radar for a while, just haven’t had the dinero. Eye relief is a biggy for me, I tend to stay back and like a longer lop on my stock.
Only thing I didn't like about the older Burris scopes was their eye relief was more critical than a Leupold.
It's true that the eye relief on the Burris FF II scopes is slightly less than comparable Leupolds, but so far I haven't found it a problem on rifles up to 30-06. I haven't used Burris scopes on any really hard kickers though.
Not the eye relief distance so much what I didn't like was that if you shifted your head a little they tended to black out.
Sent them back, and at least two were returned by Leupold with a note saying they'd "examined" them and could find nothing wrong. I tried them on the same rifles and they malfunctioned the same way.
Same here on a couple of occasions. Talked with a tech about the latest one, requesting a repeat return. He looked at their records, said they didn't find anything, just cleaned and returned. POI still would not follow adjustments.
Now surely, with all their fancy equipment, they could test and find out what was actually happening.
But, when there "isn't a problem", how ya gonna fix it.
"Houston, we have a problem" but it seems to be located in Beaverton...
I used to call it the “Leupold shuffle”.... step to the left, step to the the right... used to drive me nucking futs. Then you’d get it zeroed and be afraid to ever touch anything again!
The first-gen Conquests were a revelation; at that same price point, things more or less moved as they should when adjusting, and then stayed there.
Then you buy a Nightforce.... grin... and you see how that stuff is supposed to work!
The new Jap-built Conquests are awesome mechanically FWIW, in the same realm as my NF’s, and of course, brilliant optically. 👍
I used to call it the “Leupold shuffle”.... step to the left, step to the the right... used to drive me nucking futs. Then you’d get it zeroed and be afraid to ever touch anything again!
The first-gen Conquests were a revelation; at that same price point, things more or less moved as they should when adjusting, and then stayed there.
Then you buy a Nightforce.... grin... and you see how that stuff is supposed to work!
The new Jap-built Conquests are awesome mechanically FWIW, in the same realm as my NF’s, and of course, brilliant optically. 👍
I used to call it the “Leupold shuffle”.... step to the left, step to the the right... used to drive me nucking futs. Then you’d get it zeroed and be afraid to ever touch anything again!
The first-gen Conquests were a revelation; at that same price point, things more or less moved as they should when adjusting, and then stayed there.
Then you buy a Nightforce.... grin... and you see how that stuff is supposed to work!
The new Jap-built Conquests are awesome mechanically FWIW, in the same realm as my NF’s, and of course, brilliant optically. 👍
I used to call it the “Leupold shuffle”.... step to the left, step to the the right... used to drive me nucking futs. Then you’d get it zeroed and be afraid to ever touch anything again!
The first-gen Conquests were a revelation; at that same price point, things more or less moved as they should when adjusting, and then stayed there.
Then you buy a Nightforce.... grin... and you see how that stuff is supposed to work!
The new Jap-built Conquests are awesome mechanically FWIW, in the same realm as my NF’s, and of course, brilliant optically. 👍
I used to call it the “Leupold shuffle”.... step to the left, step to the the right... used to drive me nucking futs. Then you’d get it zeroed and be afraid to ever touch anything again!
The first-gen Conquests were a revelation; at that same price point, things more or less moved as they should when adjusting, and then stayed there.
Then you buy a Nightforce.... grin... and you see how that stuff is supposed to work!
The new Jap-built Conquests are awesome mechanically FWIW, in the same realm as my NF’s, and of course, brilliant optically. 👍
Only thing I didn't like about the older Burris scopes was their eye relief was more critical than a Leupold.
It's true that the eye relief on the Burris FF II scopes is slightly less than comparable Leupolds, but so far I haven't found it a problem on rifles up to 30-06. I haven't used Burris scopes on any really hard kickers though.
Not the eye relief distance so much what I didn't like was that if you shifted your head a little they tended to black out.
I haven't noticed that with the more current Burris FF II 3-9x40's.
I have three Leupold VX-5HD 3-15x44 scopes with the FireDot Duplex reticle on my favorite hunting rifles and they are working out well, and yes I dial them.
Got an antelope at 438 yards and an elk at 650 yards this year, and when dialed they "shuffled" the bullets right where they were supposed to. As they do at the range.
I wish they had the old VX-R duplex, but with the lit dot I'm getting by.
Happy with these for the hunting conditions I can encounter.
I used to call it the “Leupold shuffle”.... step to the left, step to the the right... used to drive me nucking futs. Then you’d get it zeroed and be afraid to ever touch anything again!
The first-gen Conquests were a revelation; at that same price point, things more or less moved as they should when adjusting, and then stayed there.
Then you buy a Nightforce.... grin... and you see how that stuff is supposed to work!
The new Jap-built Conquests are awesome mechanically FWIW, in the same realm as my NF’s, and of course, brilliant optically. 👍
Did you vote for Biden?
Just don't give him a box of nosler bullets. It's tougher than velcro shoes for communist jeff.
I have three Leupold VX-5HD 3-15x44 scopes with the FireDot Duplex reticle on my favorite hunting rifles and they are working out well, and yes I dial them.
Got an antelope at 438 yards and an elk at 650 yards this year, and when dialed they "shuffled" the bullets right where they were supposed to. As they do at the range.
I wish they had the old VX-R duplex, but with the lit dot I'm getting by.
Happy with these for the hunting conditions I can encounter.
Thanks for the report. That's the sort of stuff I keep hearing, the reason am hoping to range-test my VX5 soon.
I just got notification that my latest Leupold to die is due back here Friday. It is a VX-II that died way to young. It hasn't been used that much. I hope they really fixed it!
I have had 3 repaired in the past. One was an ancient M8 4X that they got right first try. One was a very well used 3-9 Compact that sat on several different rifles over the years. I even used it to shoot High Power Rifle Silhouette for a while where it was constantly adjusted up and down. Leupold fixed it and it worked fine but they left a piece of dirt in it so I sent it back again. The other is a FX-III 12X that I bought used here on the 'Fire to put on my silhouette rifle. It would not track so I sent it in. Leupold sent it back and it still didn't track. I called them up and asked what I had to do to get them to fix that scope so it would track. They said to send it back. They fixed it the second time. Haven't had a problem with it since.
John, thanks for the info re: the current Burris stuff.
I'm truly snakebit when it comes to Burris stuff. With the exception of a Signature 8-32 that I used for spot and stalk fox and coyote hunting, everything 'B' has been a tangled up hot mess. The latest debacle is a 4-12 Compact that was NIB that I purchased in the '90's and USPS destroyed recently in shipping. USPS won't cover my insurance claim since I don't have the original invoice and Burris can't supply a price since it's discontinued. The final kick in the head is that Burris can't repair it as they have no parts. But they will replace it with a current model of some type.
Of course, none of this is Burris' fault but it just shows how me and Big B seemingly are not meant to be. I'm actually hoping to try a replacement for the damaged 4-12 Compact.
The only Leupold that's died on me was a 6X42 A.O. after over 4,000 rounds on my .30 cal, 10lb. Hunter Benchrest gun. It didn't really 'die'...the parallax just got increasingly fussy to correct. The repair sheet from Leupold showed that the lenses had been reset.
I used to wonder why Burris had the turrets so far forward on their early scopes until I saw a cutaway showing the brass erector tube. Leverage is a wonderful thing!
I just got notification that my latest Leupold to die is due back here Friday. It is a VX-II that died way to young. It hasn't been used that much. I hope they really fixed it!
I have had 3 repaired in the past. One was an ancient M8 4X that they got right first try. One was a very well used 3-9 Compact that sat on several different rifles over the years. I even used it to shoot High Power Rifle Silhouette for a while where it was constantly adjusted up and down. Leupold fixed it and it worked fine but they left a piece of dirt in it so I sent it back again. The other is a FX-III 12X that I bought used here on the 'Fire to put on my silhouette rifle. It would not track so I sent it in. Leupold sent it back and it still didn't track. I called them up and asked what I had to do to get them to fix that scope so it would track. They said to send it back. They fixed it the second time. Haven't had a problem with it since.
What was the turnaround time? I know they say 4-6 weeks, but how realistic is that?
John, thanks for the info re: the current Burris stuff.
I used to wonder why Burris had the turrets so far forward on their early scopes until I saw a cutaway showing the brass erector tube. Leverage is a wonderful thing!
Good shootin'. -Al
Al, yep the brass erector-tube Burris scopes were interesting, to say the least! Among other things, they also proved problematic to mount, because of the placement of the adjustment turrets.
They eventually got away from that, and as I mentioned around the early 2000s started were pretty darn good scopes. One of the interesting changes was lighter erector tubes, and often using heavy coil-springs to move the tubes--instead of flat springs, as many companies did (and some still do).
One of the toughest Burris scopes I've owned was the 1.5-5x model (as I recall the "Safari") that's now discontinued, apparently because not many hunters want low-magnification scopes anymore. Mine got abused considerably on several rifles, including my CZ .416 Rigby, especially when I did an extensive handloading project involving pushing the old round to .416 Weatherby pressures and velocities--around 2650 fps with 400-grain bullets. The scope just kept working very well.
Unfortunately, one of the other realities of writing about scopes is that many companies prefer that you not mention scopes they don't make anymore--even though the company name is still involved. So when they discontinued the 1.5-5x I eventually moved it along, partly because there were other new scopes I needed to attempt to break on the .416.
I just got notification that my latest Leupold to die is due back here Friday. It is a VX-II that died way to young. It hasn't been used that much. I hope they really fixed it!
I have had 3 repaired in the past. One was an ancient M8 4X that they got right first try. One was a very well used 3-9 Compact that sat on several different rifles over the years. I even used it to shoot High Power Rifle Silhouette for a while where it was constantly adjusted up and down. Leupold fixed it and it worked fine but they left a piece of dirt in it so I sent it back again. The other is a FX-III 12X that I bought used here on the 'Fire to put on my silhouette rifle. It would not track so I sent it in. Leupold sent it back and it still didn't track. I called them up and asked what I had to do to get them to fix that scope so it would track. They said to send it back. They fixed it the second time. Haven't had a problem with it since.
What was the turnaround time? I know they say 4-6 weeks, but how realistic is that?
It is about 4 weeks since I sent it in. I am surprised. They turned it around in under 4 weeks. I just hope it works now!
Had two serviced past couple years. The M8-8x abruptly turned into a rattle. The VX 3-9x33 compact EFR lost its AO. Turnaround time for each was around 4 weeks. Just got the EFR back, AO seems to work but the ocular is stiff. Undecided, have to mess with it more. M8 is fine.
Have a bunch of VX3s. First, none would pass a box test. More like a trapezoid......or maybe a parallelogram. Or a combination. Second, ergo sight-in involves multiple rounds. Cuz who knows what the adjustments actually deliver. Third, after sight-in a separate trip to verify nothing changed is necessary for some of them. No, not all of them......but which ones? None of mine are CDS. '90s to '00s mostly.
Have not had noticeable zero shift after verifying on separate trip. Which is why I continue to use them. But will buy something else going forward.
John, THANK YOU for what is arguably the best post EVER on scopes and their virtues and maladies. I really enjoyed it. I will have to look into Burris' now . As two failures, my biggest disappointment was a "real" and expensive Zeis on a Model 70 300 H&H which is not a particularly punishing caliber. On Leupolds, I've had one fail completely, but my biggest issue with them over the last few years was adjustment. They simply didn't work as advertised. Once zero was set they seem to hold, even on medium to heavy recoiling rifles, thankfully, I'm not a "knob turner."
Lastly, and to the newer members of the Forum, NEVER, EVER trust ANYTHING JeffO (more commonly know as JeffObama, Gunttruck50) says. He is a prevaricating, dope smoking, democrat ball washer and those are some of his better attributes, but more to the point, his bullshitting about his hunting, ballistics, etc., are legendary in their excremental component.
Around here, sight in issues are always Leupolds fault and have nothing to do with the trigger puller...
Grabbed a different gun at the last minute this year, one that has sat for a couple years, loaded up 23 new rounds...4 or 5 in just over an inch, cold and warm barrel...rang steel at 300...load shoot, load shoot, repeat....Finished up in about 30 minutes total.....Killed another Deer with a Leupold and a cold, dirty barrel...
Addition: That rifle has been shoot approximately 1500 to 2000 times...All with the same Leupold 6x42...
I have three Leupold VX-5HD 3-15x44 scopes with the FireDot Duplex reticle on my favorite hunting rifles and they are working out well, and yes I dial them.
Got an antelope at 438 yards and an elk at 650 yards this year, and when dialed they "shuffled" the bullets right where they were supposed to. As they do at the range.
I wish they had the old VX-R duplex, but with the lit dot I'm getting by.
Happy with these for the hunting conditions I can encounter.
Thanks for the report. That's the sort of stuff I keep hearing, the reason am hoping to range-test my VX5 soon.
I had a 2-10, won in one of Doug’s drawings, and it worked perfectly on my FC, aside from the reticle bleed issue. It wasn’t “tested” or abused, just sighted in and used. Nice view, and easy to get behind. I sold it to a local Fire member when it came back from the reticle replacement, mostly due to a case of Tract Lust I picked up here. No complaints, but I don’t think I’d give $900 of my own money for another. If yours holds up, I’m pretty sure you’ll like it.
Al, yep the brass erector-tube Burris scopes were interesting, to say the least! Among other things, they also proved problematic to mount, because of the placement of the adjustment turrets.
They eventually got away from that, and as I mentioned around the early 2000s started were pretty darn good scopes. One of the interesting changes was lighter erector tubes, and often using heavy coil-springs to move the tubes--instead of flat springs, as many companies did (and some still do).
Best, John
John, I'd bet the weight of the brass erector tube is likely why the turrets were positioned so far forward? The Signature 8-32 I mentioned had the adjustable Light Collector on the objective. On bright sunny days shooting over snow, it made a big difference. It also had the Posi Lock system for locking the erector tube into place to prevent POI changes. That system worked too...you had to learn to 'lead' it a bit as it loaded the erector tube when tightened. Once set, it never moved.
After a few seasons, I replaced the 8-32 Burris with a Leupold 6.5-20X50 VX III and it too gave excellent service.
When Burris revamped their 6 power A.O. HBR scope for Hunter Benchrest competition and tagged it the HBRII, it used the Posi Lock standoff on the tube but instead of the locking mechanism, it had a coil spring in it to keep the erector tube loaded, along with two flat leaf springs. The adjustments were 1/5" (.020) rather than the earlier versions 1/8" adjustments. Tracking was spot on but both of the two I had suffered from parallax issues that could never be resolved despite multiple trips back to Burris for tune ups. Since I had an 'extra' , I disassembled it and could see why the parallax issue was there and why it couldn't be fixed unless they redid the reticle cell design. They never did and folded the line up shortly after.
I reassembled the one I'd taken apart and it's been on a very accurate Remington 541T .22 for many years now.
Lmao @ "Leupold are junk". What an ass hat statement.
Leupold riflescopes are probably the best money I ever spent...on anything. Don't be jealous of something you can't afford.
This the ass hat statement leupolds aren't that expensive
Depends which models you're talking
They aren't in S&B price range plus they have some low dollar models as well Your original post just didn't cut the mustard.
I'll put my VX5 scopes up against anything in the same price range. It won't even be comparable.
They will not beat a Track Toric which cost less. Your experience or more like lack of is showing
I can't agree or disagree. But my VX5s have been absolutely flawless. Track great and hold zero perfectly.
That is good and I've heard that before about those. Tract scopes and binoculars are an incredible value. I have Nightforce, Zeiss, U.S. Optics, Meopta, S&B and Tract Toric scopes are right there with them in quality fir much less cost
Yep, the turrets on the brass-erector tube Burris's were moved forward for leverage reasons.
Ran into that parallax problem now and then. In 1995 they sent me a new variable once for a big game hunt I was planning, as I recall a 3-9x or so, and the only magnification where there wasn't any parallax was the top end. I tend to prefer magnification somewhere in the middle of that for most big game hunting, so told 'em what was happening. They said that's just the way things are--apparently due to the brass erector tube. It wasn't too long afterward that they started revamping the line-up--without the brass tubes.
Wouldn’t matter, the Leupold threads are the Groundhog Day equivalent campfire movie.
And probably most often started by one who wants to watch it again.....
Yep then here comes the scOpe X'spurts with their faulty erectors.....
Can you guys believe the rifle scope design engineers that hang around here ?
LFC = Leupold Fan Club?
Do you honestly think that most who experienced repeated troubles with any scope brand started out desiring to not get good service from and be dissatisfied with the product that they selected and traded hard earned money to obtain?
I am brand loyal when I have good experienced but if I get burned by a company, I never go back. After many years as a Ford guy, I wouldn't take one now if you gave it to me. I got burned by them and will never go back.
As for Leupold, I have at least 10 of their scopes and have never had a problem. There may be people who have had other experiences but, so far, not me. I will keep buying them unless/until I get burned.
I also have a couple other optics that have been good so far. I have a couple Trijicons that have been good and a Meopta that has also been good. I have bought other lower-priced brands without good results.
Ran into that parallax problem now and then. In 1995 they sent me a new variable once for a big game hunt I was planning, as I recall a 3-9x or so, and the only magnification where there wasn't any parallax was the top end. I tend to prefer magnification somewhere in the middle of that for most big game hunting, so told 'em what was happening. They said that's just the way things are--apparently due to the brass erector tube. It wasn't too long afterward that they started revamping the line-up--without the brass tubes.
Good hunting, John
On the HBRII I disassembled, the reticle lens cell had two lenses. One lens had the horizontal cross hair and dot on it. The other lens had the vertical cross hair on it and fitted against each other in the brass ring that supported them. Evidently the small gap created from the thickness of the wires/dot manifested as the parallax issue. You could eliminate the horizontal parallax, you could eliminate the vertical parallax...but you could never clear both horizontal and vertical at the same time. This remained a constant at any of the yardages we shot at (100-200-300) or in any lighting condition.
It's amazing that scopes work as well as they do.....
I am brand loyal when I have good experienced but if I get burned by a company, I never go back. After many years as a Ford guy, I wouldn't take one now if you gave it to me. I got burned by them and will never go back.
As for Leupold, I have at least 10 of their scopes and have never had a problem. There may be people who have had other experiences but, so far, not me. I will keep buying them unless/until I get burned.
I also have a couple other optics that have been good so far. I have a couple Trijicons that have been good and a Meopta that has also been good. I have bought other lower-priced brands without good results.
I apologize in advance. I'm not trying to poke fun at you or your post, and I get where you are coming from on how difficult is is to go back to something that you feel let you down. But, I'd like to use an element from your post to satirically summarize how I view the ongoing Leupold debate:
But Ford's are awesome. I've never had a single problem with 3 Fords that I used as grocery getters and never towed with or took off road, so I can't possibly fathom the reality that you, or anyone else, ever had a problem with a Ford.
I never had a problem with a Ford....because I never owned one
I figured you for a Toyota guy from the outset.
Haven't you heard: Everyone should support Ford. They are a great American company who engineer and assemble in the the USA (most of the time) some great vehicles from foreign and domestically sourced parts.
Unless, throughout other posts, someone has proven themselves a liar, I assume everybody who claims to have had a bad or a good experience with a particular brand of scope is telling the truth. It simply amazes me how such a discussion turns into a sophomoric "you suck" type of discussion. I know, I know, "hey TBS, shut your trap and go back to sitting on the couch and licking windows". Yes, my spidy sense does go off when someone says "I know a guy who knows his stuff and he had 43 of these all puke while only being mounted on 22 rimfires". Ya, sure you do.
I have three Leupold VX-5HD 3-15x44 scopes with the FireDot Duplex reticle on my favorite hunting rifles and they are working out well, and yes I dial them.
Got an antelope at 438 yards and an elk at 650 yards this year, and when dialed they "shuffled" the bullets right where they were supposed to. As they do at the range.
I wish they had the old VX-R duplex, but with the lit dot I'm getting by.
Happy with these for the hunting conditions I can encounter.
Thanks for the report. That's the sort of stuff I keep hearing, the reason am hoping to range-test my VX5 soon.
Buddy of mine used that same VX5 3-15 this year on a 300 Win Mag - ranged a cow elk at 612 yds, dialed elevation and dropped it. I have a few older Leupolds but haven't bought a new one in years. That VX5 2-10 you mentioned looks interesting...
I still use two older 2.5-8’s. They do ok; one in particular. They’ve got aftermarket elevation turrets and are on “fun” guns, like my .223AI. They clearly and obviously outperformed the several newer 2.5-8’s I owned which have moved on to other shooters.
I don’t really understand WHY Leup has had a tough time getting with the program. I hypothesize that it’s somewhat akin to the US automakers in the 70’s; there’s just an arrogance there that they don’t need to compete at a high level because of who they are. That attitude set the US car industry back 20+ years and created an opening you could, well, drive a car through for the Japanese. I remember my first Japanese car, a ‘79 Accord. I traded my ‘79 Chevy Scottsdale pickup for it. That truck had it all: the 305 V8 was an absolute dog, but STILL got terrible mileage, when you put it up on a lift (I worked at a gas station all through high school and we were always messing with our trucks) you’d see the giant oversize holes in the frame/body mounts so that they could get things to more or less line up... the engine had a lifter tick at under 40k miles, which I cured by drizzling ATF into the carb with the motor running... the interior plastics were soft and the NM sun ate them up... various knobs and switches would work, not work, whatever.... then I got that Honda and..... you just changed the oil in it and it went and went and went and everything worked. “Huh”!
It’s frustrating because I work in the field of mechanical manufacturing and to a lesser degree (mostly my own fixturing and tooling), design... everything that is “wrong” with Leup could’ve been addressed decades ago with some reverse engineering, R&D effort, and stepping up their QC. This ain’t rocket science; it’s just EFFORT and being willing to admit you have a problem. The same things the US automakers did to compete... you want to beat Toyota, you first gotta BE Toyota.
I happily take my money elsewhere. If you believe in the power of free markets, which I do, the possibility of failure must exist and further, must manifest as consumer behavior, to change the behavior of the manufactures. I’m doing my part by rewarding excellence when I find it, and punishing complacency and arrogance. In a very real sense, it’s patriotic. Short of just closing our borders to imports, or imposing more punitive and ineffective tariffs, it’s compete-or-die on a global level. I want to believe America and Americans can compete. But blindly “buying American” won’t do that; in fact it can do just the opposite; it can function as enabling.
One has to know their rifle to judge a scope. When a 1" rifle becomes a 3" rifle,and you change scopes, and it becomes a 1/2" rifle. That is mmm?? moment.
I still use two older 2.5-8’s. They do ok; one in particular. They’ve got aftermarket elevation turrets and are on “fun” guns, like my .223AI. They clearly and obviously outperformed the several newer 2.5-8’s I owned which have moved on to other shooters.
I don’t really understand WHY Leup has had a tough time getting with the program. I hypothesize that it’s somewhat akin to the US automakers in the 70’s; there’s just an arrogance there that they don’t need to compete at a high level because of who they are. That attitude set the US car industry back 20+ years and created an opening you could, well, drive a car through for the Japanese. I remember my first Japanese car, a ‘79 Accord. I traded my ‘79 Chevy Scottsdale pickup for it. That truck had it all: the 305 V8 was an absolute dog, but STILL got terrible mileage, when you put it up on a lift (I worked at a gas station all through high school and we were always messing with our trucks) you’d see the giant oversize holes in the frame/body mounts so that they could get things to more or less line up... the engine had a lifter tick at under 40k miles, which I cured by drizzling ATF into the carb with the motor running... the interior plastics were soft and the NM sun ate them up... various knobs and switches would work, not work, whatever.... then I got that Honda and..... you just changed the oil in it and it went and went and went and everything worked. “Huh”!
It’s frustrating because I work in the field of mechanical manufacturing and to a lesser degree (mostly my own fixturing and tooling), design... everything that is “wrong” with Leup could’ve been addressed decades ago with some reverse engineering, R&D effort, and stepping up their QC. This ain’t rocket science; it’s just EFFORT and being willing to admit you have a problem. The same things the US automakers did to compete... you want to beat Toyota, you first gotta BE Toyota.
I happily take my money elsewhere. If you believe in the power of free markets, which I do, the possibility of failure must exist and further, must manifest as consumer behavior, to change the behavior of the manufactures. I’m doing my part by rewarding excellence when I find it, and punishing complacency and arrogance. In a very real sense, it’s patriotic. Short of just closing our borders to imports, or imposing more punitive and ineffective tariffs, it’s compete-or-die on a global level. I want to believe America and Americans can compete. But blindly “buying American” won’t do that; in fact it can do just the opposite; it can function as enabling.
That's a hell of a lot of typing without including any pertinent information, except maybe about cars and your work history. "Newer" and "older" tell us nothing. Newer than what, or older than what? Ideally you would include the model of the scopes,Vari-X, VX-III. VX-3 etc.
But Ford's are awesome. I've never had a single problem with 3 Fords that I used as grocery getters and never towed with or took off road, so I can't possibly fathom the reality that you, or anyone else, ever had a problem with a Ford.
Sooo, you are implying that Leupold uses don't use theirs like those who choose other brands? They only use them as the equivalent of a grocery getter that never gets off road?
I broke down and picked up a couple of older 4x M8's here last week or the week before. I put one on a little 357 Max today and sighted it in on my lunch break. Friction adjustments. Bore sighted at a post, fired 3 at 50 yards, made an adjustment and moved to 100, fired 3 more....measured and adjusted. In all cases the measure was from the group of 2 in the 3 shot group. The final 3 shot group after the last adjustment is below.....the one out was the first shot, which was in the same place as the previous group of 2.
It was so incredibly consistent in the adjustment occurring AFTER the next shot. I couldn't help but laugh about it. It's 3x the ammo to sight one in vs a NF, SWFA, S&B, Tract....I could have gotten away with 2 shots each time but if I had made adjustments off of one shot it would have been chasing zero all day.
These have a lot of great user characteristics on eye relief, weight, ease of head placement. I won't do a lot of serious shooting until deer season ends in February but I'll probably hunt this one a few times....we'll see how it holds up and if it holds zero. The little .357 Max is a tack driver for a less than 6 lbs scoped rifle.
I am brand loyal when I have good experienced but if I get burned by a company, I never go back. After many years as a Ford guy, I wouldn't take one now if you gave it to me. I got burned by them and will never go back.
As for Leupold, I have at least 10 of their scopes and have never had a problem. There may be people who have had other experiences but, so far, not me. I will keep buying them unless/until I get burned.
I also have a couple other optics that have been good so far. I have a couple Trijicons that have been good and a Meopta that has also been good. I have bought other lower-priced brands without good results.
I apologize in advance. I'm not trying to poke fun at you or your post, and I get where you are coming from on how difficult is is to go back to something that you feel let you down. But, I'd like to use an element from your post to satirically summarize how I view the ongoing Leupold debate:
But Ford's are awesome. I've never had a single problem with 3 Fords that I used as grocery getters and never towed with or took off road, so I can't possibly fathom the reality that you, or anyone else, ever had a problem with a Ford.
Makes sense. I know a lot of people that hunt and kill animals, but the only shooting they do is just before the season when they go out and pace off 100 or 200 steps and make sure they can hit a cereal box. Just readjust on the cereal box if needed and go hunting. There’s nothing wrong with that, it obviously works for a lot of people. But those same people are not likely going to know if there is anything wrong with their scopes.
A friend of mine hunted this year with a younger guy that had just bought a new rifle and scope. He had it mounted and bore sighted at the store, bought some ammo and went hunting without doing any shooting. Then he killed two deer. I’m sure he thinks his scope is awesome, but his experience and opinion would have very little value.
Makes sense. I know a lot of people that hunt and kill animals, but the only shooting they do is just before the season when they go out and pace off 100 or 200 steps and make sure they can hit a cereal box. Just readjust on the cereal box if needed and go hunting. There’s nothing wrong with that, it obviously works for a lot of people. But those same people are not likely going to know if there is anything wrong with their scopes.
A friend of mine hunted this year with a younger guy that had just bought a new rifle and scope. He had it mounted and bore sighted at the store, bought some ammo and went hunting without doing any shooting. Then he killed two deer. I’m sure he thinks his scope is awesome, but his experience and opinion would have very little value.
And here we go with this bullchit again. Basically the old, "all Leupolds suck and if you don't know this fact it's because you are a goober who only bore sights his rifle and calls it good for hunting season if it keeps 3 shots on a sheet of poster paper at 100 yards".
That's just horse chit. In addition to Leupold scopes I also own Zeiss, Swarovski, Nikon, and even one Schmidt & Bender. I also know how to properly sight in a rifle. I have had no more difficulty sighting in any of my Leupold scoped rifles than I have with any of the other scopes I own. And I have never had any of them fail to hold zero. That goes for the 6 I currently own and a few more I sold along with the rifle they were mounted on over the years. I also probably have at least 10 or more family members and friends that own at least 1 Leupold scope. Some of them more than that. No reported problems from them either. And believe me because of the constant stream of negativity here I have specifically asked them.
I am nobodies sunshine pumping fan boy either. I fully realize that any company that makes thousands of scopes every year is going to have failures. A lemon is possible with any company. But I find it weird that none of the people I know of outside the internet seem to have these consistent problems with Leupold scopes. In fact the vast majority of places you go online have a good opinion of them. But come here and the Leupold failure rate jumps to 98.7 percent. Amazing. Maybe what some of you guys need is a priest or a shaman to lift whatever optics curse one of you ex wives placed on your asses. LOL!
Makes sense. I know a lot of people that hunt and kill animals, but the only shooting they do is just before the season when they go out and pace off 100 or 200 steps and make sure they can hit a cereal box. Just readjust on the cereal box if needed and go hunting. There’s nothing wrong with that, it obviously works for a lot of people. But those same people are not likely going to know if there is anything wrong with their scopes.
A friend of mine hunted this year with a younger guy that had just bought a new rifle and scope. He had it mounted and bore sighted at the store, bought some ammo and went hunting without doing any shooting. Then he killed two deer. I’m sure he thinks his scope is awesome, but his experience and opinion would have very little value.
And here we go with this bullchit again. Basically the old, "all Leupolds suck and if you don't know this fact it's because you are a goober who only bore sights his rifle and calls it good for hunting season if it keeps 3 shots on a sheet of poster paper at 100 yards".
That's just horse chit. In addition to Leupold scopes I also own Zeiss, Swarovski, Nikon, and even one Schmidt & Bender. I also know how to properly sight in a rifle. I have had no more difficulty sighting in any of my Leupold scoped rifles than I have with any of the other scopes I own. And I have never had any of them fail to hold zero. That goes for the 6 I currently own and a few more I sold along with the rifle they were mounted on over the years. I also probably have at least 10 or more family members and friends that own at least 1 Leupold scope. Some of them more than that. No reported problems from them either. And believe me because of the constant stream of negativity here I have specifically asked them.
I am nobodies sunshine pumping fan boy either. I fully realize that any company that makes thousands of scopes every year is going to have failures. A lemon is possible with any company. But I find it weird that none of the people I know of outside the internet seem to have these consistent problems with Leupold scopes. In fact the vast majority of places you go online have a good opinion of them. But come here and the Leupold failure rate jumps to 98.7 percent. Amazing. Maybe what some of you guys need is a priest or a shaman to lift whatever optics curse one of you ex wives placed on your asses. LOL!
I actually didn’t mention Leupold at all, or any scope brand. What I said is that some experiences and opinions hold more value than others, and that has shown in this thread.
Makes sense. I know a lot of people that hunt and kill animals, but the only shooting they do is just before the season when they go out and pace off 100 or 200 steps and make sure they can hit a cereal box. Just readjust on the cereal box if needed and go hunting. There’s nothing wrong with that, it obviously works for a lot of people. But those same people are not likely going to know if there is anything wrong with their scopes.
A friend of mine hunted this year with a younger guy that had just bought a new rifle and scope. He had it mounted and bore sighted at the store, bought some ammo and went hunting without doing any shooting. Then he killed two deer. I’m sure he thinks his scope is awesome, but his experience and opinion would have very little value.
And here we go with this bullchit again. Basically the old, "all Leupolds suck and if you don't know this fact it's because you are a goober who only bore sights his rifle and calls it good for hunting season if it keeps 3 shots on a sheet of poster paper at 100 yards".
That's just horse chit. In addition to Leupold scopes I also own Zeiss, Swarovski, Nikon, and even one Schmidt & Bender. I also know how to properly sight in a rifle. I have had no more difficulty sighting in any of my Leupold scoped rifles than I have with any of the other scopes I own. And I have never had any of them fail to hold zero. That goes for the 6 I currently own and a few more I sold along with the rifle they were mounted on over the years. I also probably have at least 10 or more family members and friends that own at least 1 Leupold scope. Some of them more than that. No reported problems from them either. And believe me because of the constant stream of negativity here I have specifically asked them.
I am nobodies sunshine pumping fan boy either. I fully realize that any company that makes thousands of scopes every year is going to have failures. A lemon is possible with any company. But I find it weird that none of the people I know of outside the internet seem to have these consistent problems with Leupold scopes. In fact the vast majority of places you go online have a good opinion of them. But come here and the Leupold failure rate jumps to 98.7 percent. Amazing. Maybe what some of you guys need is a priest or a shaman to lift whatever optics curse one of you ex wives placed on your asses. LOL!
I actually didn’t mention Leupold at all, or any scope brand. What I said is that some experiences and opinions hold more value than others, and that has shown in this thread.
Right out of the MSNBC 'Most college graduates did not vote for Trump' 2016 playbook.
But Ford's are awesome. I've never had a single problem with 3 Fords that I used as grocery getters and never towed with or took off road, so I can't possibly fathom the reality that you, or anyone else, ever had a problem with a Ford.
Sooo, you are implying that Leupold uses don't use theirs like those who choose other brands? They only use them as the equivalent of a grocery getter that never gets off road?
There is overstatement as a satirical device.
But, yes, the sentiment emanates from the fact that when you read through enough of these types of discussions, there does seem to be usage and expectation commonalities among those who have been happy with the performance of their Leupold scopes.
But Ford's are awesome. I've never had a single problem with 3 Fords that I used as grocery getters and never towed with or took off road, so I can't possibly fathom the reality that you, or anyone else, ever had a problem with a Ford.
Sooo, you are implying that Leupold uses don't use theirs like those who choose other brands? They only use them as the equivalent of a grocery getter that never gets off road?
There is overstatement as a satirical device.
But, yes, the sentiment emanates from the fact that when you read through enough of these types of discussions, there does seem to be usage and expectation commonalities among those who have been happy with the performance of their Leupold scopes.
Well, you left this out...
Originally Posted by battue
If so, how did you verify it to be fact?
And your verification is nothing more than it "does seem".....If that is your best...so be it...
Makes sense. I know a lot of people that hunt and kill animals, but the only shooting they do is just before the season when they go out and pace off 100 or 200 steps and make sure they can hit a cereal box. Just readjust on the cereal box if needed and go hunting. There’s nothing wrong with that, it obviously works for a lot of people. But those same people are not likely going to know if there is anything wrong with their scopes.
A friend of mine hunted this year with a younger guy that had just bought a new rifle and scope. He had it mounted and bore sighted at the store, bought some ammo and went hunting without doing any shooting. Then he killed two deer. I’m sure he thinks his scope is awesome, but his experience and opinion would have very little value.
And here we go with this bullchit again. Basically the old, "all Leupolds suck and if you don't know this fact it's because you are a goober who only bore sights his rifle and calls it good for hunting season if it keeps 3 shots on a sheet of poster paper at 100 yards".
That's just horse chit. In addition to Leupold scopes I also own Zeiss, Swarovski, Nikon, and even one Schmidt & Bender. I also know how to properly sight in a rifle. I have had no more difficulty sighting in any of my Leupold scoped rifles than I have with any of the other scopes I own. And I have never had any of them fail to hold zero. That goes for the 6 I currently own and a few more I sold along with the rifle they were mounted on over the years. I also probably have at least 10 or more family members and friends that own at least 1 Leupold scope. Some of them more than that. No reported problems from them either. And believe me because of the constant stream of negativity here I have specifically asked them.
I am nobodies sunshine pumping fan boy either. I fully realize that any company that makes thousands of scopes every year is going to have failures. A lemon is possible with any company. But I find it weird that none of the people I know of outside the internet seem to have these consistent problems with Leupold scopes. In fact the vast majority of places you go online have a good opinion of them. But come here and the Leupold failure rate jumps to 98.7 percent. Amazing. Maybe what some of you guys need is a priest or a shaman to lift whatever optics curse one of you ex wives placed on your asses. LOL!
I liked the possessed optics comment. I need an old priest and a young priest at the range!
Surely you must be aware by now....the Campfire membership is composed of a higher quality of shooters than those other lessor forums.
Oh I am well aquainted with the group here who think if you don't spend your days trying to knock flecks of paint off a metal gong at various distances you can't have an opinion about a scopes worth. Kind of guys who make their wife call them Carlos Hathcock when they have sex and feel the urge to jerk off whenever they see someone dressed in tactical gear. LOL!
It's mainly the Campfire fraternity society, and some wanting others to think they are part of the IN group...Little more than that...
The dedicated LR shooters have reason to want the best of the best...and most have specialized rifles that can bring out the best in a scope...It's those shooting an off the shelf rifle, thinking they need the same scope to kill a Deer, at the often quoted 100 yards and under, and Leupold isn't up to the task...They need to be in the frat....
I still use two older 2.5-8’s. They do ok; one in particular. They’ve got aftermarket elevation turrets and are on “fun” guns, like my .223AI. They clearly and obviously outperformed the several newer 2.5-8’s I owned which have moved on to other shooters.
I don’t really understand WHY Leup has had a tough time getting with the program. I hypothesize that it’s somewhat akin to the US automakers in the 70’s; there’s just an arrogance there that they don’t need to compete at a high level because of who they are. That attitude set the US car industry back 20+ years and created an opening you could, well, drive a car through for the Japanese. I remember my first Japanese car, a ‘79 Accord. I traded my ‘79 Chevy Scottsdale pickup for it. That truck had it all: the 305 V8 was an absolute dog, but STILL got terrible mileage, when you put it up on a lift (I worked at a gas station all through high school and we were always messing with our trucks) you’d see the giant oversize holes in the frame/body mounts so that they could get things to more or less line up... the engine had a lifter tick at under 40k miles, which I cured by drizzling ATF into the carb with the motor running... the interior plastics were soft and the NM sun ate them up... various knobs and switches would work, not work, whatever.... then I got that Honda and..... you just changed the oil in it and it went and went and went and everything worked. “Huh”!
It’s frustrating because I work in the field of mechanical manufacturing and to a lesser degree (mostly my own fixturing and tooling), design... everything that is “wrong” with Leup could’ve been addressed decades ago with some reverse engineering, R&D effort, and stepping up their QC. This ain’t rocket science; it’s just EFFORT and being willing to admit you have a problem. The same things the US automakers did to compete... you want to beat Toyota, you first gotta BE Toyota.
I happily take my money elsewhere. If you believe in the power of free markets, which I do, the possibility of failure must exist and further, must manifest as consumer behavior, to change the behavior of the manufactures. I’m doing my part by rewarding excellence when I find it, and punishing complacency and arrogance. In a very real sense, it’s patriotic. Short of just closing our borders to imports, or imposing more punitive and ineffective tariffs, it’s compete-or-die on a global level. I want to believe America and Americans can compete. But blindly “buying American” won’t do that; in fact it can do just the opposite; it can function as enabling.
That's a hell of a lot of typing without including any pertinent information, except maybe about cars and your work history. "Newer" and "older" tell us nothing. Newer than what, or older than what? Ideally you would include the model of the scopes,Vari-X, VX-III. VX-3 etc.
Fair enough. I’ll verify this when I’m in my gun safe later, because the evolution of their nomenclature is a bit hard to keep track of, lol, but my recollection is they are click-adjust Vari-X III’s. They are from the early 2000’s.
But Ford's are awesome. I've never had a single problem with 3 Fords that I used as grocery getters and never towed with or took off road, so I can't possibly fathom the reality that you, or anyone else, ever had a problem with a Ford.
Sooo, you are implying that Leupold uses don't use theirs like those who choose other brands? They only use them as the equivalent of a grocery getter that never gets off road?
There is overstatement as a satirical device.
But, yes, the sentiment emanates from the fact that when you read through enough of these types of discussions, there does seem to be usage and expectation commonalities among those who have been happy with the performance of their Leupold scopes.
Well, you left this out...
Originally Posted by battue
If so, how did you verify it to be fact?
And your verification is nothing more than it "does seem".....If that is your best...so be it...
I see your sense of irony is as on as the adjustments of some of Leupold Scopes I've had! Seriously, your responses fit right into the usual Leupold discussion pattern: I never had a problem with mine; therefore, it's not plausible that anyone else has had an issue with theirs, either.
As far as "verification", what exactly does my statement require? It's observational and it's prefaced by being identified as satire. If you love Leupolds, have been well served by them, and, by extension, have a lot of confidence in them to the point that you don't believe there's any issues, what difference does it make what people on the internet say? Further, are those who've had disparate experiences from yours supposed to dismiss, deride, or disqualify your opinions for being different from thiers?
I'll ask you the same question I asked LFC earlier in the thread: Is it your belief that people make the choice to buy something with the intention of being dissatisfied with it?
It's mainly the Campfire fraternity society, and some wanting others to think they are part of the IN group...Little more than that...
The dedicated LR shooters have reason to want the best of the best...and most have specialized rifles that can bring out the best in a scope...It's those shooting an off the shelf rifle, thinking they need the same scope to kill a Deer, at the often quoted 100 yards and under, and Leupold isn't up to the task...They need to be in the frat....
Shooting LR increases the number of critical variables and in doing so, brings the mechanical stability of the aiming device into sharp relief. Successful LR shooting starts with an accurate rifle and a scope that repeats; if you have those two things you can get to work. Notice I didn’t say “tracks”.... it can even track funky in the sense that X number of clicks results in more, or less, POI movement than it “should”, but as long as the adjustments are repeatable, you can work around that with some rounds expended and good data collection and record-keeping.
What happens is, or rather what happened to me, is that as one is trying to sort out this multi-variable equation, eventually as one churns through gear, burns powder, reads the forums, and so on.... if you persevere and spend enough $$ eventually you hit upon the convergence of a truly accurate rifle and a truly reliable scope. That’s a light-bulb moment. In my case it’s the rifle I call the “Lite” because it’s basically a 7-mag Sendero “Lite”.... it’s a short action 7 WSM with a 24” barrel in the same HS stock Remington uses, or used to use (I don’t pay attention anymore) but without that god awful palm swell. So, a Sendero Lite. I built the rifle, chambered it myself, etc. It is freakishly, phenomenally accurate. Conversing in private with the very knowledgeable EHG, he put me on the trail of a used NF 5.5-25 NSX and that scope, on that rifle, combined with my awesome shooting skills (ahem) were my light bulb moment. The rifle is for most intents and purposes perfectly accurate. Ditto for the scope. That leaves the nut behind the butt, and atmospheric considerations, and of course the fine details of making premium ammo. But removing scope variability is, I’m tellin’ you, a complete game-changer. It’s as tangible as dropping a rock on your foot. You KNOW IT when you see it. And there’s no going backwards from that.
Obviously some have had issues with Leupold....the same as some have stated they have had issues with every other brand...And to your last sentence no...if only obviously...
But let us start with the posts header...."So Leupold are Junk anymore." A definitive statement...which some think is either pure BS or posted only to bring about controversial opinions...A troll question if you will...A post that has been discussed here over and over and....Little different than Chevy, Ford, Toyota, Dodge...and one that all know will bring out the same, over and over and...
What do you think?
Addition: Here is mine....Leupold is not the best of the best, Leupold is far from junk, while the entry level and middle class Leupold scopes will not suit the needs of the dedicated LR shooters....and that would be those that can consistently go past 500...Those same entry and middle class scopes will reliably handle 99% plus of the needs of those who are shooting mostly standard rifles, that are being used by most hunters...Verification???? One only needs to look at the success story pics, with the vast majority showing a Leupold doing the work.....
Not a fan of Leup’s incredible shrinking eye relief feature as the power goes up, either. It does give awesome eye relief/ eye box at low power settings, but the price is that the scope pulls away from the eye as you crank it up. Zeiss and Swaro take a different approach where the ER/EB is biggest in the middle portion of the magnification range. A minor nitpick.
Only thing I didn't like about the older Burris scopes was their eye relief was more critical than a Leupold.
It's true that the eye relief on the Burris FF II scopes is slightly less than comparable Leupolds, but so far I haven't found it a problem on rifles up to 30-06. I haven't used Burris scopes on any really hard kickers though.
Not the eye relief distance so much what I didn't like was that if you shifted your head a little they tended to black out.
Obviously some have had issues with Leupold....the same as some have stated they have had issues with every other brand...And to your last sentence no...if only obviously...
But let us start with the posts header...."So Leupold are Junk anymore." A definitive statement...which some think is either pure BS or posted only to bring about controversial opinions...A troll question if you will...A post that has been discussed here over and over and....Little different than Chevy, Ford, Toyota, Dodge...and one that all know will bring out the same, over and over and...
What do you think?
Addition: Here is mine....Leupold is not the best of the best, Leupold is far from junk, while the entry level and middle class Leupold scopes will not suit the needs of the dedicated LR shooters....and that would be those that can consistently go past 500...Those same entry and middle class scopes will reliably handle 99% plus of the needs of those who are shooting mostly standard rifles, that are being used by most hunters...Verification???? One only needs to look at the success story pics, with the vast majority showing a Leupold doing the work.....
For "verification" I'll relate my experiences with Leupold, which seem to be aligned with some others' experiences as stated on these type of threads and with others I know personally.
For years I preached the Leupold gospel. At one point I had over 30 scopes from them. Some took some ammo to get sighted in, but almost all of them served their purpose well for a lot of years. If I did have an issue, their CS was always great.
As mentioned, I had a fair amount of scoped rifles, so while I shot a lot, each individual rig didn't see very high round counts. As time went on my long range shooting equipment and skill set evolved, and I started dialing instead of hold and hope with a duplex or holding off with graduated reticles of various forms. I found my gold rings weren't up to being turned on regularly, and I had trouble with a few before moving on to other brands.
Around the same time, I sold a fair amount of guns off and sort of upgraded what I decided to keep and buy. This resulted in less rigs being shot more frequently, wherein I experienced more use induced troubles with with certain equipment, which included Leupolds that were still being used on set and forget rigs.
While I have "lost the faith" a bit, overall, I don't disagree with you that the use profile of a lot of hunters and shooters would still be served OK by Gold Rings.The vast majority of my game pics include gold rings, including the largest bucks and bulls I've ever taken. I've recommended them to a lot of people through the years and haven't received any negative feedback, while over the same time frame a lot of game has been taken by those folks and their gold rings.
I don’t know whether I can really add to this discussion but I will give my experience with leupold scopes. I have nine mounted on rifles from VXll to VX3i. I have criticized them in the past because I didn’t think the optics were as good as the reputation but I like them because of the lightness and for me durability and reliability. I must be lucky because for me I have not had point of impact shift, I have one 2x7 that has been on a model 70 that shoots to the same point of impact today that it did when mounted in 1993. The others have been shifted from rile to rifle but I have not seen a change in zero over the years. I have not had to use their warranty yet. I can’t do enough hunting with the restricted game limits to wear out a scope or rifle, but I do go to the range often. Because of the success I have had with them most of my hunting rifles wear Leupold and a couple wear Bausch& Lomb.
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but Metallic Silhouette shooters adjust their elevation turrets more than anybody I know, typically up and down over about a ten MOA range every match and practice plus sighting in, Leupold is by far their preferred scope brand. Granted that is with target turrets, top level shooters shoot enough to wear out the adjusters at which point they send the scope to Leupold for a warranty rebuild and start the process over. I've had dozens of Leupold scopes over the years, many years ago I had a 2-7X compact scope that did experience adjustment problems similar to what's been described here, unfortunately I had to send it back a second time to get it fixed, which is certainly frustrating. I've sent a few scopes to the custom shop as well and also had to deal with some confusion that seemed to come from an internal communication problem at Leupold. All things considered I still consider Leupold to be my first choice in scope brands.
I had a Vari X III 2.5x8 that was bad from the get go.Warranty. I bought a used Bushnell Scopechief 3x9 , it did the same as the Leupold. They didn't fix it well, unlike Leupold. . It went for a swim with the Canoe Rifle , this time they sent me a 4x Scopechief. If someone had bought a Bushnell Scopechief 3x9, they would have turned into Leupold believers.I have an old Vari X III of the same cloudy, poor adjusting vintage. I bought a used 1.5x6 4200 Bushnell. It came off a 375 H&H . It had to be firmed up , chuckle.
Great Warranty means it failed. A mechanic told me that when I mentioned Craftsman tools years ago.
Bushnells in Canada are a relatively fairly priced whereas Leupold are over priced compared to USA.
Interesting thread in a way, It makes you think back to your own experiences. I still have and use the same Vari X lll 2.5 x 8 I bought new in 1978 with never any problems with it either. Never had any problems with the M8's I have nor with the Vari X ll's or llc models. Most were bought 2nd hand (used) which saved me a lot of money on purchase price. I have and use many other brands of scopes as well , most bought used. I never worried about buying a used Leupold because if it was screwed up I knew they would fix it. One of my favorites is the M8 6x but most who have them like them also and never sell them. I've found the best subsitute for an M8 6x is a Vari X llc 3 x 9 yeah you turn it to 6x and leave it there. Which brings me to a point, I' m a set and forget type user for the most part but I have been learning the turret models use. The thing is none of my Leupolds are the newer models which people have problems with I couldn't afford them new so I was allways buying used older ones relying on Leupolds warranty to sort out problems that never materialized. The older ones are going up in price like everything else these days. Maybe I should quit buying guns to save money on scopes. Gotta find a scope for my 6mm Creedmoor RAP first though....mb
The current consensus is that Leupold is not what they used to be and haven’t been for several years. So my question is what is a good alternative? I am not a long ranges knob twister in any way . All I need is good optics, reliability, decent adjustments without breaking the bank. 2-7, or 3-9, do anything I want. Will spend 500 to 600 bucks for a scope. Not going to put out thousands of dollars for something I don’t need. The wife is really screwed as she was a Nikon freak. One of her old scopes needed repair and she got a voucher toward binoculars. Harder than hell to mount and impossible to sight in.
I’ve only used the Leupold warranty 1 time in 20 years: & that was due to a new scope that had a scratch on the front glass about 18 years ago.
I just bought a VX-R patrol 3-9 with the Fire dot in MilDot, it’s now rebadged as a VX-3HD. That would be my recommendation for you.
Anything else in that ~$500 price point is going to be imported completely.
Then stay the hell away from them because you are an idiot
You guys ever notice how people that like Asian made scopes are so bitter and nasty ?
I think I know why....
I'd be pissed at the world too if I had been stupid enough to buy Asian made "Junks"
Q: Leupold VX-Freedom Rimfire Riflescope Q:Is the glass made in china? leupold said it could be but wouldn't specify. i was hoping it's japanese glass.
A: A: Winston we source our glass from a few select and qualified vendors in Asia. All of our glass is manufactured to our specific specifications and is inspected upon arrival at our factory in Beaverton Oregon by our optical engineers. Any glass that does not meet our exacting standards is rejected and returned to the vendor. The actual origin of the glass is of little consequence, what is more important the optical design and assembly process. It would be a bit like getting hung up on where the rubber trees were grown for the rubber in your tires. What is really important is how the tires are designed and constructed. The same holds true with our riflescopes that is why all of our riflescopes are design, machined, and assembled in our factory in Beaverton OR USA.
The current consensus is that Leupold is not what they used to be and haven’t been for several years. So my question is what is a good alternative? I am not a long ranges knob twister in any way . All I need is good optics, reliability, decent adjustments without breaking the bank. 2-7, or 3-9, do anything I want. Will spend 500 to 600 bucks for a scope. Not going to put out thousands of dollars for something I don’t need. The wife is really screwed as she was a Nikon freak. One of her old scopes needed repair and she got a voucher toward binoculars. Harder than hell to mount and impossible to sight in.
Don't believe all that you hear. "L" makes excellent scopes but like any manufacturer, they can let a bad one slip through. Personally, my experience with them has been very good. Bought my first two in 1976 and they are still on the same rifles. Have bought about 6 others since then and none have had issues. But, I need to state that I was raised and trained that you need to take care of the Arm that will take care of you. I am an FFL now and see the two year old quality guns that folks want to trade in and they absolutely trashed....like rolling around in the bottom of a duck boat trashed. It makes my skin crawl when I see this and I consider it a total lack of respect. These people will have issues with whatever gun or scope that they own. Just my .02 from an old jaded Norwegian in Northern Minnesota.
Out of curiosity, does "Asian scopes" only pertain to scopes that are manufactured and shipped from Asia or does that also include the parts that are made in Asia and shipped to the US for final assembly?
Many would be surprised as to the % of Asian parts comprised in scopes listed as "Made in America".
Out of curiosity, does "Asian scopes" only pertain to scopes that are manufactured and shipped from Asia or does that also include the parts that are made in Asia and shipped to the US for final assembly?
Many would be surprised as to the % of Asian parts comprised in scopes listed as "Made in America".
I was at the range the other day. I had a VX-3 3x9 on a rifle and I had a 12x binoculars that I’m fond of. The VX-3 showed bullets holes in the target clearly, with the binoculars I had to carefully adjust them to see the 22 caliber holes. I’ve had good results mostly with returning Leupolds for repair. I also had one that I’m pretty sure needs repair and they said it was fine. Repairing scopes for free is one thing, but having a scope fail while out hunting is quite upsetting. I don’t recall a Leupold fail while hinting. But I shoot many more times at targets and practice off-hand than I do hunting. I’m getting long in the tooth and my worry that a scope might fail concerns me especially since I don’t know if this will be my last hunt. So I’ve been buying up scopes that have a reputation for being tough. I have had scopes fail while hunting - I don’t recall the manufacturer - and I’ve had scopes fail at the range. If I’m hunting more than a few miles from home I’ll take two rifles. My hinting buddies know that if they have problems with their rifles/scopes etc that I have spare. I also have a quick release rings bases on a couple rifles with a spare scope.
I was at the range the other day. I had a VX-3 3x9 on a rifle and I had a 12x binoculars that I’m fond of. The VX-3 showed bullets holes in the target clearly, with the binoculars I had to carefully adjust them to see the 22 caliber holes. I’ve had good results mostly with returning Leupolds for repair. I also had one that I’m pretty sure needs repair and they said it was fine. Repairing scopes for free is one thing, but having a scope fail while out hunting is quite upsetting. I don’t recall a Leupold fail while hinting. But I shoot many more times at targets and practice off-hand than I do hunting. I’m getting long in the tooth and my worry that a scope might fail concerns me especially since I don’t know if this will be my last hunt. So I’ve been buying up scopes that have a reputation for being tough. I have had scopes fail while hunting - I don’t recall the manufacturer - and I’ve had scopes fail at the range. If I’m hunting more than a few miles from home I’ll take two rifles. My hinting buddies know that if they have problems with their rifles/scopes etc that I have spare. I also have a quick release rings bases on a couple rifles with a spare scope.
I wouldn't be labeling all Asian as junk. Even in the 40 year old past, some Japanese were much better than any Leupold of that vintage.
Yeah, "Asian" includes Japan and Light Optical Works (LOW). They make some of the finest scopes available, including Nightforce, high end tactical Bushnell's, and others.
From what I've read, there aren't many makers of high end optical glass. Even "American made" scopes use glass from the "Pacific Rim"... And "Pacific Rim" could include the Chicoms....
I still use two older 2.5-8’s. They do ok; one in particular. They’ve got aftermarket elevation turrets and are on “fun” guns, like my .223AI. They clearly and obviously outperformed the several newer 2.5-8’s I owned which have moved on to other shooters.
I don’t really understand WHY Leup has had a tough time getting with the program. I hypothesize that it’s somewhat akin to the US automakers in the 70’s; there’s just an arrogance there that they don’t need to compete at a high level because of who they are. That attitude set the US car industry back 20+ years and created an opening you could, well, drive a car through for the Japanese. I remember my first Japanese car, a ‘79 Accord. I traded my ‘79 Chevy Scottsdale pickup for it. That truck had it all: the 305 V8 was an absolute dog, but STILL got terrible mileage, when you put it up on a lift (I worked at a gas station all through high school and we were always messing with our trucks) you’d see the giant oversize holes in the frame/body mounts so that they could get things to more or less line up... the engine had a lifter tick at under 40k miles, which I cured by drizzling ATF into the carb with the motor running... the interior plastics were soft and the NM sun ate them up... various knobs and switches would work, not work, whatever.... then I got that Honda and..... you just changed the oil in it and it went and went and went and everything worked. “Huh”!
It’s frustrating because I work in the field of mechanical manufacturing and to a lesser degree (mostly my own fixturing and tooling), design... everything that is “wrong” with Leup could’ve been addressed decades ago with some reverse engineering, R&D effort, and stepping up their QC. This ain’t rocket science; it’s just EFFORT and being willing to admit you have a problem. The same things the US automakers did to compete... you want to beat Toyota, you first gotta BE Toyota.
I happily take my money elsewhere. If you believe in the power of free markets, which I do, the possibility of failure must exist and further, must manifest as consumer behavior, to change the behavior of the manufactures. I’m doing my part by rewarding excellence when I find it, and punishing complacency and arrogance. In a very real sense, it’s patriotic. Short of just closing our borders to imports, or imposing more punitive and ineffective tariffs, it’s compete-or-die on a global level. I want to believe America and Americans can compete. But blindly “buying American” won’t do that; in fact it can do just the opposite; it can function as enabling.
That's a hell of a lot of typing without including any pertinent information, except maybe about cars and your work history. "Newer" and "older" tell us nothing. Newer than what, or older than what? Ideally you would include the model of the scopes,Vari-X, VX-III. VX-3 etc.
He's the same IDIOT that pontificated Barnes bullets are no good because they over penetrate, had issues with opening Nosler boxes and did I mention he voted for Obama (twice) Hillary and Biden? He's also a lying, sackoshit doper...
I still use two older 2.5-8’s. They do ok; one in particular. They’ve got aftermarket elevation turrets and are on “fun” guns, like my .223AI. They clearly and obviously outperformed the several newer 2.5-8’s I owned which have moved on to other shooters.
I don’t really understand WHY Leup has had a tough time getting with the program. I hypothesize that it’s somewhat akin to the US automakers in the 70’s; there’s just an arrogance there that they don’t need to compete at a high level because of who they are. That attitude set the US car industry back 20+ years and created an opening you could, well, drive a car through for the Japanese. I remember my first Japanese car, a ‘79 Accord. I traded my ‘79 Chevy Scottsdale pickup for it. That truck had it all: the 305 V8 was an absolute dog, but STILL got terrible mileage, when you put it up on a lift (I worked at a gas station all through high school and we were always messing with our trucks) you’d see the giant oversize holes in the frame/body mounts so that they could get things to more or less line up... the engine had a lifter tick at under 40k miles, which I cured by drizzling ATF into the carb with the motor running... the interior plastics were soft and the NM sun ate them up... various knobs and switches would work, not work, whatever.... then I got that Honda and..... you just changed the oil in it and it went and went and went and everything worked. “Huh”!
It’s frustrating because I work in the field of mechanical manufacturing and to a lesser degree (mostly my own fixturing and tooling), design... everything that is “wrong” with Leup could’ve been addressed decades ago with some reverse engineering, R&D effort, and stepping up their QC. This ain’t rocket science; it’s just EFFORT and being willing to admit you have a problem. The same things the US automakers did to compete... you want to beat Toyota, you first gotta BE Toyota.
I happily take my money elsewhere. If you believe in the power of free markets, which I do, the possibility of failure must exist and further, must manifest as consumer behavior, to change the behavior of the manufactures. I’m doing my part by rewarding excellence when I find it, and punishing complacency and arrogance. In a very real sense, it’s patriotic. Short of just closing our borders to imports, or imposing more punitive and ineffective tariffs, it’s compete-or-die on a global level. I want to believe America and Americans can compete. But blindly “buying American” won’t do that; in fact it can do just the opposite; it can function as enabling.
That's a hell of a lot of typing without including any pertinent information, except maybe about cars and your work history. "Newer" and "older" tell us nothing. Newer than what, or older than what? Ideally you would include the model of the scopes,Vari-X, VX-III. VX-3 etc.
He's the same IDIOT that pontificated Barnes bullets are no good because they over penetrate, had issues with opening Nosler boxes and did I mention he voted for Obama (twice) Hillary and Biden? He's also a lying, sackoshit doper...
And his 5 acre plot of land is so thick one could get lost in there! lol
I can only talk about my experience with Leopold scopes. I am 75 years old and have been hunting and shooting along time. I was raised on a cattle ranch in Colorado and have hunted and shot there, as well as Wy., Fl., Az., and here in Oregon. I have had a few rifles over the years, but now only have 6 with scopes on them. They are all Leopold. I guess I am brand loyal. 😁 Not as experienced as most here, but I have never had a problem with a Leupold scope. Granted I am not a turret twister and just set the scope where it needed to be and went hunting. Next year would check zero’s and maybe move it a little and be ok. The only scope that had to have it’s elevation turret moved a lot was 3x9 rimfire scope on my hunter class silhouette rifle. Scope didn’t come with turrets, so I put a Stony Creek knob ( remember them? ) on it. Worked fine, not one problem. In this game you move your turret often and it has to be repeatable. Shot that game for about 10years then took it off and now it’s just my small game rifle. Never a problem.
Maybe I’m just lucky, or maybe like all mechanical things sometimes they break. Just not as often as the internet says they do. 😎
Thanks, LFC. Yes it is. Have had a Oregon Kimber and this one is more accurate and that’s saying something because my old Kimber was very accurate. Here it is out hunting squirrels. It’s my favorite .22 have had it 20years, Leopold scope still works too. 😎
Thanks, LFC. Yes it is. Have had a Oregon Kimber and this one is more accurate and that’s saying something because my old Kimber was very accurate. Here it is out hunting squirrels. It’s my favorite .22 have had it 20years, Leopold scope still works too. 😎
Nice wood.
My Cooper Classic is more accurate than my Kimber of Oregon. The Kimber went down the road; the Cooper is a keeper.
To me, on any rifle that has reach, the question boils down to this. Would I be comfortable twisting the adjustments to hell and back the night before a big hunt where an accurate, precise first shot might be required ... or not. No checking zero, just grab the rifle and go.
I’ve seen too much squirreliness from Leupold scopes to answer “yes“ with them. It’s mainly that whole “settling shot” phenomenon that has been mentioned.
Other scopes I own, I would not hesitate in the slightest to do that. Not based on name or reputation, based on what they’ve shown me.
For guys who go with the “zero 1.5” high at 100 and go huntin” this isn’t a factor; nor is it a factor with folks using a reticle for holdover. I had a couple Leup’s with the B&C and they worked fine, as far as they went.
As someone who makes precise things it also just grates on me the sheer number of times Leup has advertised precision mechanicals and then it turns out otherwise. THEY know better. The people designing and testing these mechanisms knew they had issues; but for whatever reasons they chose to buy expensive glossy advertisements saying how awesome they were..... and then fix things for free when people complained. That’s a really disingenuous business model, to put it charitably.
If leupold is now in the junk scope category when will see their prices on new or used scopes come down and be discounted like the other junk scope out there? Ah....... ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,like never perhaps! What say you?
If leupold is now in the junk scope category when will see their prices on new or used scopes come down and be discounted like the other junk scope out there? Ah....... ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,like never perhaps! What say you?
I have my VX-II back from the Leupold repair shop. The scope was stringing horizontally. What was interesting to me is that they replaced the vertical and horizontal adjusters and the erector. They also "reworked" some other parts, whatever that means. I looked up the serial number and the scope was manufactured in 2005 so I have had it awhile. It has probably had under 300 rounds fired under it. This scope had very precise adjustments when it worked but my older Leupolds lasted longer.
I myself just recently sent off and older VX III in 2.5x8 that was all goofed up in both elevation & windage adjustments. No spare parts anymore they said, sending me a new VX3 HD 2.8 with CDS as a replacement. I'm not a turret turner, but at one time I did play with one on a 4.5x14x40. I may as well put it on my Mesa 300WM. I have a new Burris FFII 3x9 on it now, so hey, Upgrade! I love Leupold, always have!
I myself just recently sent off and older VX III in 2.5x8 that was all goofed up in both elevation & windage adjustments. No spare parts anymore they said, sending me a new VX3 HD 2.8 with CDS as a replacement. I'm not a turret turner, but at one time I did play with one on a 4.5x14x40. I may as well put it on my Mesa 300WM. I have a new Burris FFII 3x9 on it now, so hey, Upgrade! I love Leupold, always have!
I like the ones that work, have a number of them.
They good till they not. Keeping the good ones. The one that’s been back twice goes down the road. EBay, not Fire Classifieds. Won’t sell anything here I can’t trust.
I am flat tired of how their mag adjustment rings are so stiff. I just tried a new one, a vx5hd 2-10, and sending it back monday for that reason. I have always had a leupold on one of my rifles but I think anymore it will only be fixed power.
I have no issue with owning anything made in Japan but I go out of my way to try not to own anything made in China related to firearms.
As far as I'm concerned two or three Burris scopes was enough for me....I owned one Bushnell 3x9 when I was about 14. Wasn't too long before I bought my first used Leupold scope my first taste of European was a Zeiss Diavari 1" 3x9 back in the early 1980s once you hunt with a European scope it's hard to look back.
I actually have more experience in the last 15 years or so with European scopes Zeiss, Swarovski and Schmidt and Bender. I still have a several Leupolds two Swarovskis and two Schmidt and Benders.
If I can afford it I prefer Schmidt and Bender.....costly to put one on every rifle.
Congratulations in your experience, but apparently you did NOT have experience with "two or three Burris scopes," and actually never even used the second one you acquired.
Right now I own dozens of rifle scopes, from 16 different companies. I own 17 Leupolds, more than any other brand, with Burris in second place at 11. The others include some European brands including Hensoldt, Schmidt & Bender, Swarovski and Zeiss. Probably have owned more Swarovskis and Zeisses than any other Euro brands. Among the newer brands are Nightforce, SWFA and Tract Toric.
Also right now, I have had 20 different brands of scopes fail in one way or another when on my rifles. That is BRANDS, not individual scopes, often multiples in one brand, including some noted European scopes, plus Nightforce. Any scope can malfunction after enough use, though some arrive from the factory "broken." I know this partly because for 30 years now I have been paid to test scopes, and one of the tests is to put them on rifles that recoil at least as much as a .300 magnum, and shoot the rifle considerably.
But the subject here is Leupold scopes--along with Burris. I still own quite a few Leupolds because they suit my purposes on many rifles, especially older Leupolds, some with friction adjustments. The M8 fixed-powers, for instance, are not only light and hold zero once you get them adjusted, but almost never break. Though that has happened a few times, usually by the wire reticle snapping.
Starting about a decade ago I had more Leupolds start to malfunction than ever before--including the FX fixed-powers, which replaced the M8s. At first I welcomed them, because of more consistent click adjustments, but too many didn't hold zero--and I'm not talking about 2-3 inches of shift, but sometimes a foot or more. Sent them back, and at least two were returned by Leupold with a note saying they'd "examined" them and could find nothing wrong. I tried them on the same rifles and they malfunctioned the same way.
So many Leupold scopes started malfunctioning that I eventually was photocopying the repair forms several at a time. Eventually I realized that was ridiculous, so started buying more Burris scopes, especially Fullfield IIs, as "affordable" but reliable scopes for general use. Got my first around 2003, a 30mm model that they then offered as what were then often called "tactical" scopes by many companies, which had very repeatable adjustments. Still have it, and its been on several rifles and the adjustments are still very repeatable. In fact, shot my last big game animal with it a couple weeks ago, using my custom 6.5 PRC.
But also soon tried a basic 1"-tube 3-9x40 Fullfield II, and it also worked well, with far less erratic adjustments than Leupolds in the same price range. When Burris started having them made in the Philippines I got one of those, and compared it to the American-made scope, and the "Asian" model was at least as good in every respect, and in some ways a little better. This was because Burris didn't just ask an overseas company to make a copy of the American FFII, but shipped the machinery to them, and provided instruction in how to use it.
Since then have acquired several more Philippine-made FFIIs, partly because the guys at a local sporting goods store (which sells a LOT of scopes) told me Burris was probably the most reliable brand they carry. In all that time--and a lot of shooting--have only had ONE 3-9x40 FFII malfunction--and that was my first 1" model, made in the USA, which had been on dozens of rifles, often when testing a new rifle, BECAUSE it had been so reliable. Isent it back to Burris and they had it repaired and back to me within two weeks.
I have used more expensive scopes for the same purpose, and some didn't last as long. Others did well--though one Nightforce did eventually need repair, after being used hard as a test-scope on quite a few hard-kicking rifles over 4-5 years. During the same time-frame I had to return several Leupolds for repair, and at least two malfunctioned in the same way when they showed up again.
All of which is why quit buying new Leupolds for a few years, and only used my older, proven ones. Lately they seem to be improving, and in fact have a 2-10x42 5HD that I need to "test-fire," because have heard so many good reports from trusted friends that I have high hopes. In the meantime I'll keep using my older Leupolds (used one of those, a small variable, to take my first big game animal this fall) and Burrises, and other trustworthy scopes to hunt with.
If you're tearing up.that many scopes they should find another tester.....
The current consensus is that Leupold is not what they used to be and haven’t been for several years. So my question is what is a good alternative? I am not a long ranges knob twister in any way . All I need is good optics, reliability, decent adjustments without breaking the bank. 2-7, or 3-9, do anything I want. Will spend 500 to 600 bucks for a scope. Not going to put out thousands of dollars for something I don’t need. The wife is really screwed as she was a Nikon freak. One of her old scopes needed repair and she got a voucher toward binoculars. Harder than hell to mount and impossible to sight in.
So you drank the campfire Koolaid? This site has more than it's share of Leupold bashers. Interestingly that is not the case on some of the other sources of info. Not trying to change your mind just take what you see with a grain or two of salt.
The change in characters on the campfire over the last couple years coincides with the Leupold hate.... I will stick with them until I have issues.
lots of loud mouth idiots on the fire who find fault in anything except themselves..Ive been shooting Leupolds for over 40 years.I have about 20 of them and never had to send any back for repair. stay away from the Freedom series on magnum calibers.
My OP post sure sparked more replies than I ever imagined! It was even mentioned that it was troll post. Looking back it does look troll like, but, that is not what I intended. I should have known that this would be an inflammatory subject. Glad I didn’t mention anything about the 6.5 Creedmoor in addition to my scope question.
However only a few posts answered my original question. Burris seems to be the most mentioned alternative. Is there any thing else that is a good scope for less than 600 bucks? I have a couple of Burris scopes. One had been on a rifle for years and when I changed loads the elevation knob wouldn’t turn. When I sent it in they returned it saying that the magnification adjustment issue had been corrected. Sent it in again and they returned it saying that it wouldn’t turn as it was at the end of its adjustment and that I needed to check my rings and bases so that I wouldn’t run out of adjustment. Still would not turn. Talked to a very nice lady who had me send it to her attention. She made sure the issue was resolved. Didn’t really sour me on the brand itself, but, sure don’t have a lot of faith in their service department.
So you drank the campfire Koolaid? This site has more than it's share of Leupold bashers. Interestingly that is not the case on some of the other sources of info. Not trying to change your mind just take what you see with a grain or two of salt.
The change in characters on the campfire over the last couple years coincides with the Leupold hate.... I will stick with them until I have issues.
lots of loud mouth idiots on the fire who find fault in anything except themselves..Ive been shooting Leupolds for over 40 years.I have about 20 of them and never had to send any back for repair. stay away from the Freedom series on magnum calibers.
A lot of people have experience that is very different from yours when it comes to Leup scopes. That doesn’t make them loud-mouth idiots.
I'm betting lot of scope / gun problems are likely self inflicted.....I know I've inflicted myself on more than one occasion working on something I shouldn't have be it guns, cars, plumbing, electrical the list is long.
Being a Jack of all trades is hard.
Somethings are better left to Gunsmiths....I'll go out on a limb and say that scope set up and mounting is one of those things that the Average jOe shouldn't tackle after watching a few You tube videos.
I'm betting lot of scope / gun problems are likely self inflicted.....I know I've inflicted myself on more than one occasion working on something I shouldn't have be it guns, cars, plumbing, electrical the list is long.
Being a Jack of all trades is hard.
Somethings are better left to Gunsmiths....I'll go out on a limb and say that scope set up and mounting is one of those things that the Average jOe shouldn't tackle after watching a few You tube videos.
You are going out on a limb. Any average Joe can figure it out.
I'm betting lot of scope / gun problems are likely self inflicted.....I know I've inflicted myself on more than one occasion working on something I shouldn't have be it guns, cars, plumbing, electrical the list is long.
Being a Jack of all trades is hard.
Somethings are better left to Gunsmiths....I'll go out on a limb and say that scope set up and mounting is one of those things that the Average jOe shouldn't tackle after watching a few You tube videos.
I have run into several gunsmiths over the years who didn't have much of a clue about mounting scopes. Have seen several tighten rings so much they left a visible "waist" in the scope tube, and often the pressure prevented the scope from adjusting correctly. In fact one of those claimed that ALL Leupold scopes are bad right out of the factory, due to his ham-handed idiocy.
Yep, farmer-tight / oilfield-tight has proved to cause some issues. I was skeptical of 15-17 inch pounds of torque on rings. But evenly applied, I have not had issues on any 338, 375, 416, or 458 Lott, even with the “heavier” European type scope. I do believe occasionally there are some piss-poorly manufactured rings that make it into the market place.
Lol, I have seen a couple of the wasp-waisted scope tubes. They give a unique design to a scope tube.
So you drank the campfire Koolaid? This site has more than it's share of Leupold bashers. Interestingly that is not the case on some of the other sources of info. Not trying to change your mind just take what you see with a grain or two of salt.
The change in characters on the campfire over the last couple years coincides with the Leupold hate.... I will stick with them until I have issues.
lots of loud mouth idiots on the fire who find fault in anything except themselves..Ive been shooting Leupolds for over 40 years.I have about 20 of them and never had to send any back for repair. stay away from the Freedom series on magnum calibers.
A lot of people have experience that is very different from yours when it comes to Leup scopes. That doesn’t make them loud-mouth idiots.
Jordan:
You're correct as usual. Clearly one can be a LMI even if they never had a problem with a Leupold.
So you drank the campfire Koolaid? This site has more than it's share of Leupold bashers. Interestingly that is not the case on some of the other sources of info. Not trying to change your mind just take what you see with a grain or two of salt.
The change in characters on the campfire over the last couple years coincides with the Leupold hate.... I will stick with them until I have issues.
lots of loud mouth idiots on the fire who find fault in anything except themselves..Ive been shooting Leupolds for over 40 years.I have about 20 of them and never had to send any back for repair. stay away from the Freedom series on magnum calibers.
A lot of people have experience that is very different from yours when it comes to Leup scopes. That doesn’t make them loud-mouth idiots.
Jordan:
You're correct as usual. Clearly one can be a LMI even if they never had a problem with a Leupold.
The current consensus is that Leupold is not what they used to be and haven’t been for several years. So my question is what is a good alternative? I am not a long ranges knob twister in any way . All I need is good optics, reliability, decent adjustments without breaking the bank. 2-7, or 3-9, do anything I want. Will spend 500 to 600 bucks for a scope. Not going to put out thousands of dollars for something I don’t need. The wife is really screwed as she was a Nikon freak. One of her old scopes needed repair and she got a voucher toward binoculars. Harder than hell to mount and impossible to sight in.
It seems like you like Leupolds, so if you are unsure about the new ones, just buy a used one. Get yourself an older 3.5-10 for $300.00 - $400.00 and forget about all the bashing and BS in this thread. The warranty on the older scopes is still lifetime.... I've got a TON of Leupolds. Bought my first one in approx 1991. Over the years I've used Leupolds almost exclusively and I'm still waiting on a failure. Some I set and forget. Some I dial up, down, left and right. I've checked them for accuracy in adjustments and I've done box tests with them. I haven't been disappointed yet. Don't stress yourself out over it, just buy a clean used scope and carry on.
The current consensus is that Leupold is not what they used to be and haven’t been for several years. So my question is what is a good alternative? I am not a long ranges knob twister in any way . All I need is good optics, reliability, decent adjustments without breaking the bank. 2-7, or 3-9, do anything I want. Will spend 500 to 600 bucks for a scope. Not going to put out thousands of dollars for something I don’t need. The wife is really screwed as she was a Nikon freak. One of her old scopes needed repair and she got a voucher toward binoculars. Harder than hell to mount and impossible to sight in.
It seems like you like Leupolds, so if you are unsure about the new ones, just buy a used one. Get yourself an older 3.5-10 for $300.00 - $400.00 and forget about all the bashing and BS in this thread. The warranty on the older scopes is still lifetime.... I've got a TON of Leupolds. Bought my first one in approx 1991. Over the years I've used Leupolds almost exclusively and I'm still waiting on a failure. Some I set and forget. Some I dial up, down, left and right. I've checked them for accuracy in adjustments and I've done box tests with them. I haven't been disappointed yet. Don't stress yourself out over it, just buy a clean used scope and carry on.
^^^^^THIS^^^^^
The proverbial golden nugget found after sifting thru the sand.
I'm betting lot of scope / gun problems are likely self inflicted.....I know I've inflicted myself on more than one occasion working on something I shouldn't have be it guns, cars, plumbing, electrical the list is long.
Being a Jack of all trades is hard.
Somethings are better left to Gunsmiths....I'll go out on a limb and say that scope set up and mounting is one of those things that the Average jOe shouldn't tackle after watching a few You tube videos.
I have run into several gunsmiths over the years who didn't have much of a clue about mounting scopes. Have seen several tighten rings so much they left a visible "waist" in the scope tube, and often the pressure prevented the scope from adjusting correctly. In fact one of those claimed that ALL Leupold scopes are bad right out of the factory, due to his ham-handed idiocy.
I've ran into my share of bad gunsmiths....sad thing is at any moment one can go.bad.
I'm betting lot of scope / gun problems are likely self inflicted.....I know I've inflicted myself on more than one occasion working on something I shouldn't have be it guns, cars, plumbing, electrical the list is long.
Being a Jack of all trades is hard.
Somethings are better left to Gunsmiths....I'll go out on a limb and say that scope set up and mounting is one of those things that the Average jOe shouldn't tackle after watching a few You tube videos.
I have run into several gunsmiths over the years who didn't have much of a clue about mounting scopes. Have seen several tighten rings so much they left a visible "waist" in the scope tube, and often the pressure prevented the scope from adjusting correctly. In fact one of those claimed that ALL Leupold scopes are bad right out of the factory, due to his ham-handed idiocy.
I've ran into my share of bad gunsmiths....sad thing is at any moment one can go.bad.
Just got my new Maven 2-10x38 in and mounted it. They have instructions to tighten rings to 20 inch pounds.
I've read that 20 inch pounds is pretty close to what you can tighten one with the short end of the little wrench. That's what I do, although I do have a torque wrench, I find that easier and quicker.
I was working on a friends rifle and loosening the ring screws took full effort using the long end of the wrench. Those screws were a LOT tighter than 20 inch pounds, probably double or more. At least they went back at near 20 inch pounds, not "farmer tight"....
“Just got my new Maven 2-10x38 in and mounted it. They have instructions to tighten rings to 20 inch pounds.”
Dirtfarmer What do you think of the Maven?
Very impressed with the glass. Better than VX-3i or 4200 Bushnell, closer to a Z-5 Swaro. Duplex about like the VX-3.
Adjustments seem crisp and precise, haven’t sighted it in yet.
ER is shorter than a Leupold, but that doesn’t seem to be an issue, at least on a .22-250. Would think twice about putting it on a big stomper.
1” tube is long enough to mount easily. Too many new scopes are too short, IMO.
So far, so good. Will report.
DF
I noticed the short ER, 3.11-3.19 inches, the other day while I was perusing them. A good thing is that you shouldn't have to compensate for that much when changing from one power to the other. I could live with that on most rifles, as long as I could get it mounted so I can throw the bolt without banging my poor old nose. Having to lift or turn my head is unacceptable.
Still, on balance, I’ll pay another hundred and stick with the Accupoint 3-9 w/duplex. For another $145, the Toric 2-10 gives a lot more ER, includes a turret kit wit zero stop if you decide you need to dial, and 10 more moa on tap, but is a lot heavier.
The Maven reminds me of the SWFA 2-10, but executed a bit better, and worth the extra money.
If only in "fairness",I've not skinned a NIB scope outta it's parcel,since today. For more "fairness",judging from parcel Scripts,there appears to be a "few" more to carve open. Tossing this one aboard a Vudoo now. Hint.
FFP and a Milscale,with a plenty capable etched reticle,that actually "does" sumptin'. Don't fret the external ocular shipping debris. All of which is VERY Non-Reupold-esque. Hint. Fhuqking LAUGHING!
I've used Leupold scopes for ~ 30 years, 3 scopes had to be returned for repair, internals messed up.
In their use over those years they were very frustrating to get a zero then hold it. Seems every time I did a range day the scopes never held a tight zero.
One poster mentioned the elite series of Bushnell, had a 4.5x30 Tactical Elite, it tracked fairly well but I did discover that it did not hold a solid zero, eg: on a target rifle usually get in the <1 moa range, I replaced the scope and with the same set up, loads rifle etc. the rifle now would consistently group 0.5-0.6 moa at 330 yards, 5 and 10 shot groups. Certainly no issue for a hunter, but not much good for a competitive shooter.
SWFA does hold zero and track well, as does Sightron III's.
And, mounting a scope properly is key to get the best performance.
Leupold , like many other 'old' companies has decided to take the equity out of the brand, I'm sure they can manufacture anything that would compete with the world's best but do not. Quick cash is the business model and [bleep] the future.
Yep, a Rem 700 with a Leupold on top was the state of the art 40 years ago, both companies considered 'blue collar' premiums.
I would spend $800 on a 1-5x, 30mm tube with 36mm objective, relatively small ocular bell, 4 inches of eye relief and bulletproof, repeatable adjustments.
The FX-II Leupolds are supposed to be bomb-proof, so I'm a little disappointed to learn that's not exactly true. But they do offer mounting ease, light weight, smaller oculars for bolt clearance while still providing ~4" eye relief (5" with the tiny 2.5x20mm!), and low mounting capabilities in an era of Hubble style overkill.
I didn't believe that low power could make for small groups until I tried it off the bench with the FX-II 2.5x20mm and shot way better than I thought it would turn out. Don't get me wrong, I really like watching .22 holes appear at 32x at 50m. But this is only to see how accurate the rifle is. For a bench rifle, a fixed 32x that focuses down to 50 yards would do everything I want, rimfire or centrefire.
From field positions doing target stuff, experience says 16x-20x is about my limit. A 4-16x40mm with AO down to 20 yards would be my perfect general purpose .22 For a hunting rifle, see the first line.
Anyway, sounds like the only real complaint is Leupold adjustments, so if they make that part bombproof, everyone can go back to loving them. Sad that they discontinued the fixed 4x32mm and 6x36mm. Those were ideal form factors.
Out of all these posts, is there consensus on a point in the Leupold lineup where the adjustments are generally bulletproof?
I picked an old Kaps at a gun show once... maybe $100... and maybe 40 years old.
I must say... it is damn impressive glass... close to the class of a Kahles... almost.
26mm tube was a PITA however... I remember reaming the rings was irritating, but the only option I had (spec rings were 99.9% impossible to find).
It sits on a CZ-550 medium in 9,3x62 Mauser... and makes for a good combination.
Rifle came to me as a parts gun... stock (Hogback) was a disaster on "bedding" (unset JB weld or puddy?). Hogback is a TERRIBLE FIT for me... made some mods... final finish is textured silicon (odd yes... but very grippy)... I may restock later... or not.
I did that, with the older Conquests, when I just couldn’t take Leupold’s mechanical instability anymore. As good as the older Conquests were, the newer ones are a big step up. 
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