But the guy with the pellet gun got a couple of hits on them

And if they would've killed him you'd be bitchin that the guy only had a pellet gun

I don't live in the People Republic of Boulder. But I see you claim in Austin, so one of us is in commie land.

Regardless, it's doesn't change the quality of marksmanship, or should I say the lack thereof displayed in this video.

I want one of the jap-tats on my forearm , something deep/cool & meaningful - what should it be - help me out with this ....

Oklahoma?

Isa-Tai’s bulletproof medicine musta finally kicked in.

I think you'll find that the kind of situation that played out here is one of the more common deadly force situations officers find themselves in. Using deadly force immediately upon exiting the vehicle and with the vehicle in close proximity. Yet none of the departments I worked with or trained with had realistic range scenarios to replicate the situation. I know range days cost time and money, and departments have limited budgets, but this very situation needs more training focus. I should say unless things have changed in the past 15 years.

They sure don't shoot very well. May be they were scared and were shooting with their eyes closed.

I thought perhaps this thread was gonna be about the New York City cops. They are world renowned for their ability to expend vast amounts of ammunition without hitting anyone other than a few bystanders. Was that guy in the video trying "suicide by cop" ?

Under stress few people shoot well. That has be proven. Look at the bullet vs hit ratio in war time encounters. Not the same type of incident but it is a sample none the less.The ratio is terrible. Trying to control fear, adrenaline dump agency policy, procedure, the review of your actions by your department, departmental charges, public out cry, grand jury review by the states attorney,with a possible indictment, a trail,and attorney fees, they are brave to pull their guns and engage. If you are given all of one second to decide all of the listed factors, it is no wonder they did not shot well. But they survived the incident. The job is not for everyone and its complexity of late has become a real challenge. My 2 cents, Blue

Perhaps a shotgun would have worked better.

Some men can handle the adrenaline flood in a life threatening situation, but most can't. Video after video, year after year, we see it proved. I think it was Bat Masterson, who had seen more armed confrontations than most, was fond of saying something like the calm man will always prevail. There are pistoleros here on the fire, I do not doubt, that can dump a magazine into a playing card at 50 paces....but I often wonder what would happen if the playing card was shooting back. Massad Ayoob's Stressfire makes that point pretty clear.

I’d be scared as hell. I wouldn’t hit cshit probably.

Looks like a perfect situation to jerk that shotgun off the floorboard rack.

https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/crime/article238813193.html

Just because you are a police officer doesn’t automatically make you a good shot.

Indeed.

Have any of you shot with LEO and your local range. Even in a non-stressed range environment, not great, in fact often times scary.

Oh, and the, "It cost money to train these officers, money we don't have" - "We can't afford to go practice shooting on our own dime" it all bull schit.

If you are going to carry a firearm, learn how to use it and use it well, otherwise don't carry one.

I think you'll find that many patrol officers don't have ready access to a shotgun.

My experience tells me that most officers are just good enough to qualify, and that qualification bar is pretty low. I was a good bit better than average and still consider myself just adequate. Certainly nowhere near as good as the best. Interestingly, in the few moving and shooting training sessions I got to participate in, I did very well.

Seems like many cops consider their sidearm to be a tool and not one that they're particularly interested in mastering, during the majority of their time on duty. Might to be more common with larger city forces, than with smaller ones. I know a few cops that are interested enough to train extensively (mostly on their own time), to become more proficient with their issue pistols. Most are not in that group.

We have two local PDs that use our club facilities to qualify/train. They each do that twice per year, over multiple days per session. Both have gotten more into it in the past several years. These are PDs with less than two dozen officers that patrol mostly suburban/rural areas. Each PD has a few officers that spend far more time on our ranges than their fellow officers, so that's a plus.

Both PDs now have individual AR "patrol rifles" and they've picked up the pace on training with them. It's only been the past few years that both PDs equips each officer with a rifle. At one time, both only had a few such rifles and trained sporadically with them. Typical session now, is one day on rifles and shotguns, other two days on handguns. Some time spent with their Tasers.Our LEO training area is now "littered" with barricades, barrels and steel targets that once weren't part of the deal.

I can attest from personal observations, that they've become far more proficient over the past decade, than they once were.

His jap tat says " Paint partners back with my muzzle more than I do the bad guy".


It flows more when its a cool jap tat.

I work at a range and cops, as a group, are by far the cheapest customers we have. They aren't underpaid, either. They even b*tch about the price of Blue Label Glocks.

No, it is not BS. Range days take quite a bit to put together in terms of manhours, cost and logistics. And that's certainly not the only discipline officers need continuing education/training in. Arguably not even the most important. We expect cops to be really good at a lot of very different things. To get really good takes a LOT of training time. Training takes time and it takes money. Remember that for each officer in training another officer has to cover their beat.

I shot competitively for 35 years, and LEO never impressed me as being particularly proficient under the stress of competition, always made me wonder how they performed under "real" stress? One exception I will add, United States Border Patrol, always a great group of dedicated, and very skilled at arms men and women, who always were near the top of the heap in both local, state and national competition.

Easy to sit back and judge while watching a video seated comfortably in your living room. Adrenaline dump causes a loss of manual dexterity. I've seen it happen more than a few times. Much easier to punch paper targets because they're not returning fire.

Ron

You are an attorney, yes?
Did you get paid by others to perfect your choice of occupation?

Buck fever, and some folks think that the cops can protect them.

$ and coverage?

No it doesnt.

I used to train a lot and I am not an LEO.

I read a lot, and I am not a librarian.

I got better at parallel parking, and I am not a cab driver.

I can make a wicked good moscow mule, and I am not a bartender.

I am getting better at the guitar and I am not a professional musician.

The officer in front is lucky he didn't catch a round or two from his partner.

Shooting through the windshield?

^ this

It's really no different than being out of shape. I'm not sayin you have to be in A+ shape, but look how many overweight cops you see. Don't they realize that they might have to chase or wrestle with a criminal? They might end up in 2nd place and then we'll have another dead cop.

Or the SUV.

No I am not an attorney.

OK.

Did you get payed by others to perfect your choice of occupation?

We all grew up on TV cowboys and cops, watching the sheriff kill 26 bad guys a block away with 26 bullets from a handgun from the hip. TV is a dream world but too many think that's the way it's done. At least they usually show cops using autos bringing the gun up to see the sights but they never show the hundreds of hours and thousands of rounds of practice it takes to be even remotely that good.

Spoken like someone out of touch with the realities of managing a police force.

Where would you have an officer practice hand to hand combat alone? Where should an officer practice high speed driving alone? Where should an officer practice tactical stops alone? Where should an officer practice deescalation alone. In my area I don't have a place where I can fire a practical pistol course involving moving and shooting. I'd venture a guess that most officers don't. That's just scratching the surface of the arenas in which I see officers roundly criticized on forums. There's so much more.

If you think you have the formula for cost effective comprehensive officer training, by all means start a consulting firm, because it is a problem that has confounded enforcement agencies since the beginning of time.

This would make a good training video of what NOT to do. Pistol fight at rifle range.

Why can't the officers use the training facilities provided for them on their own time?

Were you payed by others to perfect your choice of occupation?

I'm glad both cops are OK. A situation like this is very rare for most cops and often not one that they would have trained for or practiced on a lot. Like other people have said, firearms training is only one of the areas where cops have to maintain proficiency in an annual or biannual training cycle. A lot of the training is mandated by state laws which dictates specific training and further depletes any training budget.

A Patrol Rifle (usually an AR-15) from a lot further back would have been a safer approach for both cops. Since many departments don't deploy rifles, an officer is left with either a shotgun (not always deployed either) or his duty pistol. Range training with live ammo teaches you marksmanship, some elementary shooting while moving and minimal tactics. At the range, an officer can drive up to the same distance as this suspect and practice getting out of his patrol car and shooting at the target (simulated bad guy). Very few police ranges have targeting systems that can move sideways or even closer to the officer to simulate a suspect approaching them. So range training is primarily geared towards marksmanship, drawing, reloading, clearing malfunctions and other similar functions.

Tactical training with Simunitions or some similar system would have given these officers a chance to learn how to handle situations like this one while communicating to each other, taking lead and cover positions, forcing a suspect to react to one officer while the other has the drop on the suspect, etc. That does take time and money but officer proficiency in tactical situations like this goes way up. All officers in any given departments or even departments in a region are on the same page and know what each officer is supposed to do in a situation like this and learn how to communicate with each other and shift their tactics in response to suspect movements, etc. A lot (but not all) departments have this kind of training for active shooter (School shooter) training but it can be expanded for situations like this. It's impossible to devise enough scenarios to cover every single situation that has happened like this but after going through a dozen or 2 of these situations during training, your skill levels go way up and you are far better prepared to think, communicate with your partner and act in situations like this.

I am retired Coast Guard. I am a human. Nobody has any right to expect perfection out of me. They have every right to expect excellence, and I strived to deliver that. Our organization was intensely focused on training and our operational tempo allowed for it. Even with that, as a multi-mission agency, we couldn't deliver excellence in every conceivable arena with every member of our organization.

If you enter in to the discussion with the understanding of the pool of employees you have, then go from there, it helps. I live in NOLA. What kind of pool of candidates do you think are standing in line to do police work here for $45,000 per year.

https://youtu.be/yollZf8NlbM

https://youtu.be/MhoP161gpWM


https://youtu.be/qt9L5bXfC8w


Here's some better shootin for all you Billy badarses that can do better.

Those officers might have life to live on their own time even if a range is available.

Nothing new here! I’ve read of such the last 60 years! Move on folks!

You should read public comments about the muscled up cops. They are criticized too.

The heavy cops are criticized for being heavy.

The skinny cops are told they should muscle up.

The muscular cops are called roid ragers, compensators etc.

Can you post a picture of an officer you consider to be the ideal officer build?

You're missing the point. If a "civilian" with his own full time job and everyday life responsibilities can find the time and the money to practice shooting on their own, why shouldn't a cop, whose life (or others) may depend on it, be able to?

Ah, so the reason cops can't shoot is because they are, flawed from the get go, not the cream of the crop and cannot be trained, Therefor the solution is to not waist money trying to train those that are not able to be trained. Just send them out in the field and hope for the best.

I guess you could say that they killed two birds with one stone, Kept the costs down by not training those that cannot be trained and kept the costs down by not paying a livable wadge in the first place.

Got it thanks.

He explained that in his post above. Cops are not on the top tear of the smart pole and most cannot be trained anyway.

Who said anything about being "muscled up"? I was commenting on weight/height proportionate. Also, the complaint with muscled up cops isn't their physique but their actions. Some are obviously using 'roids and their attitude shows that.
PS What do you do for a living since you're taking this awfully personal?

First off, thanks for your service Paul and Semper Fi. You've made a lot of realistic observations that are spot on and especially the ones on training taking officers away from their beats. When officers aren't handling calls, most people expect them to be patrolling their assigned beats and making sure the criminals know any given area has cops in it. A good cop can catch a lot of stuff before it blows up into something worse and make a given area that much safer.

Steve4102 raised some valid points about training. Some departments have ranges where cops can train on their own time. A lot of departments aren't that lucky. That doesn't mean an officer can't find another non-range location to shoot but such location won't have all of the range equipment available. One can never shoot or practice too much. Several officers can even get together and practice but it's not the same as training. When a police department conducts training, they establish tactics, procedures, etc. that all officers on the department are made aware of. For instance, you will likely have established some set of hand signals if you train with other officers off duty but the rest of the department won't know what those hand signals mean. Your group of officers will know what each officer in a team of 2 or more is supposed to do when handling a tactical situation but other officers in the department won't. None of this means you can't practice and train on your own and become more proficient but it makes a huge difference if the whole department is on the same page because the department has established tactics, communications, etc. that you can practice further in small groups.

Back in the day, I took pistol training seriously then finished first in my class with a perfect score and after that went to the department range about twice a month and shot at our indoor range a couple of times a week. I knew that Model 19 was all there was between me and a headstone if it came to a shooting. I only fired one round on duty in 3 years, thankfully. Most cops have trouble hitting a bull in the butt with a banjo under stress, which is understandable...

Keystone cops cartoon

What you fail to realize is law enforcement is just like every profession. There is a bell curve, some are exceptional some are terrible and most are right in the middle. And that can be an overall curve, or you can even break it down to the different things police are required to do. (Like shooting, driving, report writing, interviews, etc).

I'm sure you're the best at what you do....or did 30yrs ago....boomer.

Overachiever!

I get that point. I also get reality. Reality is that few people I know in any profession work in their own time to get better at their profession. A cop with a wife that works and kids may not have much of a life at all at home. Let me again point to the pool of candidates. How many of those do you think are capable of mastery of every aspect of their job and can achieve that mastery independently. Frankly, I am not very good at independent learning. I do much better in a classroom or master/apprentice relationship.

We are focused largely on the gun here. In terms of legal liability, what would you suspect the largest legal liabilities are for enforcement agencies? When you start parsing that out you can better understand the complexities of comprehensive training and why self-training is normally not practicable.

Pellet gun or not, you don't brandish any gun around cops or in public. It is pretty difficult to differentiate between a pellet gun and a real gun in confusing and rapidly changing situations. Unfortunately, the cops missed (and given the post-traumatic disorders that might ensue, that might be a favorable thing).

A lot of creative reading went into that post. Not so much technical writing. Interestingly enough, mastery of the written English language is another discipline in which an officer needs to excel.
It is readily apparent you aren't interested in thoughtful exploration of the topic. To that end I'll bail on you with the encouragement that if you have it all figured out, you really need to get into consulting. You'll make millions.

I am not taking this personally at all. My point was that whatever a cop's build is, people will criticize it. Just another place in which a cop can't win in the eyes of the public.

Paul, I would have to agree with you. I research every police / shooter(s) deadly force engagement in my area that I can dig up information on, and believe this to be very much the case.

LOL, you are the one that said the Jury Pool of LEO is less than average due to the yearly salary offered.

You are the one that said, NOLA can't get qualified LEO due to yearly salary.

You are the one that made this excuse for their inability to "perfect" their occupation.

Paul,
You don't strike me as the type to intentionally get under someone's skin..
Actually you generally seem to choose your words and actions to be very civil...

Syeve
All one had to do is listen to the breathing of the guy with the camera after, at most a minute and a half, probably less, of "encounter" to know he was out of his element with a sky high adrenaline level..

Not that a body can gives any sort of decent sight picture, but whether intentional or not it seem like"fire for effect" and maybe he will drop it...
Dumping half a second magazine seems tactically unwise..potentially fatal..
I agree a shotgun would have been more effective and thought most marked vehicles had a locking rack on the passenger side of the radio equipment...
They were on their heels when they went in...

Just curious if you do the research professionally or for personal reasons.

As a follow up, how many times did officers drive in closer than they would if they had to do it all over again? I ask that because in this case it appeared they could see the subject from a distance but closed in more than I would have. They did do a good job of using the vehicle for cover. It's interesting how often they don't.

I am not trying to get under anyone's skin at all. These matters are important to me, so I try to do them some justice. I am not sure if you intended to, but you raised yet another training issue. It's just not possible to train in an adrenaline rush. There are some things that can be done to get the blood flowing and to induce stress, but that does not compare to the stress of a situation in which you know someone is trying to kill you.

You mentioned them being on their heels when they went in. That's why I suggested in another post that they probably closed the gap more than they should have.

If I setup this exact scenario with a paintball gun and simunitions, 95% of anybody you put through the scenario would do as well or much worse. And that's KNOWING they aren't real guns and that's KNOWING what's going to happen.

That cop has definitely had training and he did a lot of things correct. They only real critique I have was the apparent muzzle fugking they were giving each other. But that's not fair either because body cams give the viewer a deceptive view/angle.

The subject was hit four times. You don't know if the outcome would have been any different if one of those four had been in the heart or lungs. To assume it would have ended earlier is only an assumption.

Rifle range?

I was actually trying to suggest that you were not "pokeing" Steve in th eye, though he seems determined to get his eye to your finger....

And I agree with your assessment.
IMO
The best thing training can do (even more important than skills proficiency) is to teach responders to go in with as clear a head as possible..

Everybody wants cops and military to train more until they see the bill.

Then they're like "uhhh, never mind."

Well, they got some.practice in.

Attempted suicide by cop?? What did he hope to accomplish? High on drugs? What's the explanation for this guy taking on cops with a pellet gun?

That would start with a CT scan of his brain.

Well, the majority of cops score near average on IQ tests., so yes, that is a factor, but you get what you pay for.

In terms of the nature of the encounters, the FBI would agree with you. As I recall, they figured around a third of encounters were in or around vehicles.

Let's add in what John the video narration guy say's about multiple attackers. After reviewing 2500 video's about a third involved multiple aggressors.

So, about 10% of the time you could be looking at multiple subjects in or around vehicles. It's something to think about.

Oh I get it, it's an anti-cop thread.

Carry on.

Practice
Reinforcing bad habits?

Unless part of their training is to use show of force to scare an uncertain threat (inferior force) into submission...



I wondered that too.
I didn't see anyone nearby (body cam probably showed at least a 270 degree view with the move from one end of the car to the other) so where was the urgency in the response?

The video mentions multiple 911 calls stating he was waiving it around and point it at people.

If you pause the video when the cop starts firing, you can see the suspects weapon pointed right at the cop.

Oh yay.

Another gunfighter.

Just what the internets needed.

How about paying the bill while watching these [bleep] stand around for an entire day trading cop stories RATHER THAN SHOOTING?

This is what I witness on the range where I am a member, various LEO from all over the area (county SO deputies, feds, PD) congregate on "range day" and participate in socializing with very little shooting.

What concerns me more than the waste of taxpayer funds is the lack of training going on.

The money is already spent- now how about some actual work being performed?

How much ammo did they bring?

Fireman are standing in line around the corner for a job paying twice that much. And the government is so fiscally irresponsible that they won't lower the pay scale for a fireman and increase the pay for a Police officer.

Agree 100% with what you posted.
My question when reading the comments on threads like this is How many of the posters commenting have actually been in a gunfight? You know the real kind with all the adrenaline, unknown circumstances regarding the opposing combatant(s) etc, etc. Those that havent are simply talking out thier azzes as they have NO idea of what happens in a real "gunfight"

I don't know anything about combat stress, never had a confrontation, and nobody would call me lion heart anyway...but I was in 2 airplane screwups, one of which, was damn close to the plane going off the end of the runway into the ocean collapsing the nose gear. Me and some other guys talking it over later courtesy of the Wein Airlines booze cart, (nobody hurt), discovered that we forgot to breathe, there was no screaming like in the movies. Now breathing is pretty well ingrained I think. But most of us consciously remembered holding our breath. So, I guess my point is, a normal guy would prolly have to train like a Delta or Seal to behave well in a shootout. What cop shop could afford to train at that level? Would we want poorly screened law enforcement people trained to that level?

I’ve shot with and against a lot of cops. All were pretty good. The CERT/SWAT guys for obvious reasons shot a lot better than the road cops.

Most noticeable strength differences of the heavy hitters was on target hits while moving, and speed of reload and back on target hits.

Several of these officers had done lethal shoots. The worst shooter of this group killed a guy on a dv call who was holding his girlfriend with a blade to her throat. He shot him in the head from 10’ft.

😎

Tell the truth...Were you more pissed that the cops claimed the range for the day, did little shooting, so you couldn’t shoot the course of fire that one day because of them? Or, is it really about the money?

We pay a ton of taxes to educate other people’s children and based on what I’m seeing, we’re not getting our monies worth both from school districts and kids.

😎

I have never seem them on the 25 yard range.

I heard that..
Guess I need a bigger screen. But as Paul said maybe they got too close too soon, which is why I mentioned not seeing anyone around, as if he moved to a remote area, or the callers had driven by..

The truth is that he doesn't know the truth. He only knows his bias.

These are the same geniuses that complain about DHS purchasing large quantities of ammo.

...."2 cops, 50 shots, zero solid hits"...


That would seem to shoot a lot of holes in the notion that the police are out to have fun killing citizens, now wouldn't it?

Seems to me they were doing their best to keep the encounter 'non-lethal'





grin

55,000 armed personal in DHS.

If they each shot 100 rounds every two weeks, or 2,600 rounds a year, that's only 143 million rounds.

Heck, it's 3 million rounds for each to just have 3 loaded pistol mags.

I want those bastards to become experts on their own dime.

Hey, the cops were just trying to wound him. Good shootin. Looked like an auto was stopped down the street. Bet the occupants were full of Zeros.

No offense, but you're getting dumber by the day.

And your lack of life experience is glaring.

Travis,

Once again you failed to comprehend the implications of my post, or perhaps you're just not following the conversation.

Of course the typical member of the ore than 55,000 armed law enforcement officers of the DHS don't expend 100 rounds on a bi-weekly basis. I never said they did, an an above IQ person reading my post in context should understand I was providing a base line ammo consumption figure for a regular range time. I was just adding a little perspective, but apparently even minor abstractions escape you.

Your lack of life experience is glaring.

You've never managed ammo count for anything. Much less DHS.

Your post is nothing short of idiotic.

Good for Olin stock..

I thought the only hits were from the pellet gun? Maybe I misread..

Which way Jag?
Cause I am pretty sure I saw the officers shooting up the road both directions..another reason I was thinking no one around...
I would be surprised to see a video released where shots are taken in the general direction of civilians...

Make way for Mr. Gunfighter.

Wasn't that text shown on the cut between the footage and the guy in the red shirt?

Did it stop raining down your way yet?

The perp was hit four times.

I don't know. I haven't gone outside since The Corona started.

Late April? Florida? If it’s raining ya need to be outside with binocs, the Spring migrant fallout could be tremendous.

Tell me about it.

I setup two bird feeders a couple months back.

I’d tell you how many buckets I’ve filled with dead birds but I’m afraid nobody would believe me.

LOLOLOL

Blow guns might add an exciting new twist to the game. I can't say with any degree of authority though.

I stand corrected....

Sounds like you need some vitamin D and fresh air.....

My experience is the most unsafe and generally average at best shooters on the range are cops, military and gun store/internet know it all's.

As I observed,

Well ya because most of these tards have negative encounters with the law....because they are retarded.

Cause unlike regular civilians the union will back incompetent cops
no matter what and the city will pay his costs and collateral damages.

Soccer moms rule the range!

There are those that don't much need to but still do -
and those that clearly do need to - but don't.



Good grief, you sound like a below average person.

We have many highly competitive officers, private security, and retired military who are very good. They are the ones that take an active role in running things and most are instructors and participate in action league night.

I have also seen the other end where a local officer could not dispatch a road (near) kill from six feet.

As a range instructor we see many levels of skill sets. Some are really good and alot are just trying to shoot well enough to qualify. Training time has been cut due to covid and the fall training schedule is filled to the brim due to all spring training being canceled.Hiring is tough and retention is just as tough. People love to complain about the cops, it is a fact of the times.

I can live with that.

I got curious, seems like this was rural Oklahoma so I would think them two Cops grew up with firearms.

Sequoya County, Oklahoma.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequoyah_County,_Oklahoma#History

Mostly poor, rural, 70% White, 20% Indian, one in six families below the poverty line.

But Democrats outnumbering Republicans 52% to 32%?

There's a puzzle, didn't think there were enough Indians for that.

Yep. They think cop pay is great, the work is easy, that they know more than cops, cop pensions are BS, anyone can do it, etc. Were that the case you'd think they'd make a career out of it and make the world a much better place. But they don't.

From what I have seen Paul is a better human being than I am.

All of this does bring up the question of how is a LEO supposed to exit a vehicle while under fire from a perp firing upon them with a longarm?

Hit what they're aiming at of course, preferably with their own longarm. Sure seems like a tough situation to drive up on tho, if the bad guy woulda had an AR 15 he coulda taken out both Cops right at the start.

^^^ From very far away. Preferably find reverse if you're too close and park at an angle so you can roll out with the car between you and the bad guy with a long arm.

are you seriously suggesting those officers were
mentally juggling/fervently considering all those issues you listed as they drew their weapons?

Waaaay ahead of ya' buddy.

Paul Barnard, thanks that's what I was thinking but not saying. I have said it before,train up, suit up and show us how to do the job, Quit running your suck and show me. For those that hate us so much... please go and handle your problems on your own. they are much wiser and experienced then I. See how that works out for you. Quit paying taxes,remember that's my salary. We do our best each tour we work but, in the end we are all flawed products and that speaks to our results. People are the most interesting part of my job and the most frustrating! But it is all I know and I am near the end of this ride. Thank God! Blue

Stick to things you know.

Whatever that might be.

Folks in all kinds of fields make what are called
sacrifices to improve their careers and abilities.

Nobody gets anywhere without some form of sacrifice.

Whether one is a lousy tradesman cause of lack
of training and can't well provide for their family
as result.. Or if one is LE and gets killed due to
lousy shooting skills leaving a family behind...

The message is the same =
Take responsibility for yourself and situation.

Another gunfighter.

Super.

Did you watch the video or did you jump straight to dumb ass?

That's a BullShÌt response, and you know it. Or was vigilantism legalized and just missed the memo?

A Cop car doors armored? Or would a .223 rapid-fire go right through in a hail of misery?

You didn't watch the video, did you?

Hey Tks Sir, and thanks for all you do or did, whatever


"Ahem"..... DeFlave, are you listening?..... This is how to answer a question without being a "ahem"..... dumbass......

Thank God for you two.

Tell us more.

Sure did, turns out bb guns got lousy penetration, prob'ly why the armed services don't use 'em.

Thanks, teacher.

Sharp as ever.

Hey Tks Sir, and thanks for all you do or did, whatever

OK course bb guns WILL penetrate empty beer cans. Back in grad school when I lived in a shack on a deer lease we would stack up actual walls of empties after parties, in the event of a home invasion or shack invasion by a bb gun-armed perp, said walls of empties would have provided insufficient cover. Good to know

Sharp as ever.

Paul, I do it for my own personal interest.

Says you, suddenly faced with the prospect of disposing of thousands of empties.

Add in Cheyenne's research on handgun ammunition.

General word of warning concerning John boy

other videos he suggests firing through ones windshield,
in your OP vid. he says the opposite.

How is the average armed good citizen supposed
to figure what they should after listening to him?

Years ago, back in the heyday of the 'Fire a story was related of a guy up in Alaska on a fishing trip who was terrified of bears. One night, on hearing one outside the tent he discharged his .44 magnum through the closed tent, blowing out both eardrums. The other guy in the tent was still inside his mummy sleeping bag and wasn't hurt.

I'd be highly reluctant to fire a handgun inside a closed car.

Why not?

Tell us more about something you've never done....

I later qualified the comment by saying unless things have changed in the past 15 years. 15 years ago most of the patrol officers I knew (along the Gulf Coast) didn't have a shotgun in the cab of their vehicle. Some had them in their trunks. That may have changed. Current LEOs should be able to speak better to what's going on in the field today.

More about firing a handgun inside a closed car? Sure!

I have owned or regularly slept with the owners of six maybe seven vehicles in my life, although in fairness that AMC Scout back in college was so rusted out it didn't really count as a "closed vehicle", especially after an Indian Indian roommate, who had never driven a car, sideswiped a stop sign when I was letting him try and knocked out a rear side window.

OK, how about you? Seriously. You ever fire any gun at all inside a closed vehicle?

I wouldn't give a damn whether they issued me one or not, I'd bring my own.

I made the mistake of touching off a 22-250 out the right hand side of a pickup without getting the muzzle all the way out the window. Won't do that again. 😁

Wow - same here. Same scenario. Except mine was a .223. And, you're right - won't ever happen again.

Lol....you ain't gonna ever see the people that done it, talkin' about it, though there will always be some that claim it.

I wasn't commenting on his advice, but his observations of the encounters he's reviewed.
But to answer you strawman, I think you need to make up your own mind for your situation.

Ya, it doesn't blow your ear drums out...

i was just about to say the same thing

Really?

I have a good friend who, when out at the ranch, shot himself through the foot with a .22 magnum revolver, miraculously it was through and through with no phalanges broken. Alcohol may have been a factor, and I'm pretty sure the driver's side window of his pickup was rolled down at the time.

Its the case with John boy that his perception of what
he has at times observed are based on his own
wild ass conjecture... apon which he then provides
his tactical advice.

OK, if you'd care to expound upon this, why did you discharge a firearm inside a closed vehicle and what sort of firearm was it?

Also, has it had any permanent effect on your hearing?

Clint and his Dirty Harry movies led to considerable hearing loss amid the Boomer generation here in Texas, when everybody had to have a Model 29 at a time when earplugs were for weenies. And that was shooting outside.

War? Yeah.

Shooting themselves in the foot? Maybe.

Lot of people lie to make themselves feel big.

Really.

For back of the envelope math and the discussion here's it's plenty good. If you feel otherwise, please watch all 2500 video's and give us a full tally.

We await your findings.

I looked but couldn't find the deflave sarcasm emoticon. Will this one do?

With my friend he said it happened when he was attempting to put a Ruger Single Six (?) back in the holster while sitting in his truck. Known him for about 35 years now, this was before I got here. Never have asked to see the scar.

You cite the FBI data as a reliable source I gather,
so why should anyone need to repeat what Utube
sensation John boy has done?

I only knew one guy in patrol who had accidentally fired a shotgun through the roof while taking it out of the rack in a patrol car. He said it was very loud and wore hearing aids. Can't say all the hearing damage was from that single shotgun round but he said at least some of it was. He also said 00 Buck does a lot of damage to a roof.

LT and Flave get it...

I would never think you lied about something someone told you. I'm referring to the usual internet badasses.

Wanna play some hoops? Or are the ladies chasing you now with your new "tan"?

Cost.

Laziness.

Culture of the department.

Policy.

Politics.

Vehicle mounted gun locks.

Availability.

These are just for starters...

That's because you're an idiot.

I seen a concerned but decidedly intoxicated neighbor blow a hole in the roof of his pickup with a 12 gauge one night, but we was standing outside talking while he was putting it into his truck. Dunno what ammo, the hole looked like a little volcano sticking up on the roof.

Twelve yard shot and according to the narrator, VERY fast cycling, possibly affecting accuracy . I wonder how much of a difference (if any) would a non-striker pistol would have made in terms of accuracy? Personally, I shoot much better with a non-striker fired pistol (our guys here use Beretta 92s) than with a Glock style trigger. I defer to you guys with experience, but I must say, I was surprised at the hit ratio and shooting through the windscreen?

It's not really something a guy can answer without knowing a whole lot of things that we don't.

I can tell you that if you go to a USPSA match you'll find a whole lot of C class shooters using Glocks that have better scores and times than D class shooters in Open. Hell, a lot of times I outshoot guys in PCC. Has more to do with the shooter than the platform.

Nothing wrong with shooting through glass. Bullets go up on the way out of a windshield and down on the way into the vehicle. Traversing left and right causes more wonkiness. Not ideal but there's no reason to not engage something behind glass.

What did you do before you became a stay at home dad? Navy green beret? Marine delta force? Or Air Force seal?

I worked for an agency that spent a great many thousands of dollars sending the top brass to Florida for "Ethics in Law Enforcement" training. They also brought their wives and girlfriends.

But they could not afford to have us shoot more than a 60 round course of fire, twice a year and NO practice ammo was issued. Any extra ammo in your magazines was made to emptied back into the boxes after the quals.

Of course the Chief Deputy would brag that he had shot tens of thousands of rounds through his sidearm in spite of the fact that he did no actual police work, and was purely an administrator (and as dirty as they come).. The dude was and is a total piece of schidt. The agency makes crooked old southern Sheriff's offices look progressive... Want a felony charge to go away, make $xx,xxx donation to the prosecutor's or Sheriff's re-election campaign..

And you wonder why the cops who work the street don't have any money in their training budget? Ask the guys who take it and spend it on "training" trips with their girlfriends..

Nothing new.

Thank you for the reply. I qualify with my guys here at work and from what I can see, the first shot on target (double action, hammer down) tends to usually be the first shot, but your explanation and experience points to shooter prowess and of course pressure under fire as it were. Of course myself having grown up with the 1911, I can tell you I am much quicker and on target with a Condition One 1911 out of the chocks that I am with a Glock, then again, I've probably fired the 1911, lots more than my Glocks...