I've seen some serious accuracy from 1911's and other semi-autos, and I started to wonder: What would you expect to shoot smaller groups, an average out-of-the-box centerfire revolver, or a semi-auto?

For me its got a lot more to do with sights, sight radius and trigger than any inherent accuracy in most pistols or revolvers.

Average is a pretty broad term. While one would think the additional complexity of boring 5 or more chambers and alligning them with the barrel would hinder the accuracy of a revolver, the plus is the sights are fixed on the barrel and frame vs. the semi which for most designs has a barrel that is not fixed to the frame and a chamber that is necessarily cut to allow reliable feeding from a magazine.

To me good handgun accuracy is 1" at 25 yds, very good is 1" at 50 yds and exceptional is 1" at 100 yds. I expect one is going to find that a quality revolver is more likely to be shooting the very good and exceptional groups than a semi. In fact I don't think I've ever heard of a 1911 shooting 1" at 100yds, revolvers have shot that well.

Revolvers often shoot better than semi's unless the semi is worked over to have a very precise and consistent lockup

My thinking on this is the fixed relationship of the sights to the barrel on revolvers. Knowing how much even a tiny movement of the sights can move POI, a revolver's barrel and sights never move in relation to each other. Even though the chambers might not align perfectly with the breech the forcing cone will guide them into that barrel pretty straightly. Now a revolver severely out of time that shaves or otherwise damages the bullet can make the bullet go astray, but that muzzle and the sights are always pointed at the exact same place in relationship to each other.

But a semi with the sights on the slide has to lock up the exact same way every time, otherwise the barrel and the sights have a slightly different relationship to each other each shot.

I think that's one reason why Ruger semi-auto .22's are so universally accurate. The barrel might not be the most high quality tube in the world (or maybe they're excellent, I don't know) but the sights do not move in relation to it for each shot.

Just my opinion, but I think out-of-the-box accuracy is better overall from a quality revolver than from a semi-auto. Single shot pistol is another matter.

It has more to do with the shooter than the type of handgun he or she uses

When I qualify every year on a law enforcement range with a bunch of other retiree's, I notice the groups tighten up considerably when the revolvers come out.

Now I've seen some guys really shoot tight groups with pistols but over the broad spectrum of guys shooting the revolvers seem to win out.

Dan

Ive consistently found that the better quality revolvers tended to shoot tighter groups than most of my auto loaders
Ive seen several 6" , 8" and 10" barrel, length, 357 mag, 41 mag and 44 mag S&W, Ruger and DAN WESSON revolvers that could consistently keep 2" FIFTY YARD,or smaller, diam, BENCH REST GROUPS , off a sand bagged rest hold,with good hand loads and very few auto loaders I see will do that consistently, now there are a few exceptions but they ARE IN MY EXPERIENCE EXCEPTIONS
the only exceptionally accurate auto loader hand guns Ive seen lately are a S&W 1006 and a EAA 45 ACP and a GLOCK 17L.. they keep up accuracy wise with my 686 S&W and mod 29 and mod 57 S&W revolvers

I wrecked this group with one flyer that made the group into a "8". This was from a bench and sandbags at 25 yards but the pistol is anything but stock. Only thing left of the Glock is the slide and the grip frame. Anything can be made to shoot. Well nearly anything........ This .460 Rowland is among the most accurate pistols I have ever seen. I hunt with it. I recently installed a trigger system and Dawson sights on a 21 with a stock barrel and shot nearly this good. But out of the box most good quality revolvers will win. reflex264

It really depends on the exact pistol, some semi's are outstanding IE a S&W Model 52. Some revolvers are great Colt Officers model match. For myself I tend to shoot revolvers better than semi's with two exceptions a High Standard Citation and the S&W 52.

I would expect more from the wheelgun, but you never know.

Now, here's an autoloader the revolvers wouldn't "tighten up"...

DF

Factory ammo thru the Luger. could probably get it really shooting with some handloads...



Here's another one that may make the revolvers blush...

Yep, now if Les would get off his ass and get my Premiere II finished!!! LOL

Box-stock, over the counter, as delivered, you get more accuracy per dollar in centerfires with a revolver and more accuracy per dollar in rimfires with a semi-auto.

It is very hard to find an equal priced semi-auto that will shoot as well as a Ruger or S&W DA 6" barreled .357.

At the same time, it is equally difficult to find an equal priced rimfire revolver that will shoot as well as a Ruger Mk III or Browning Buckmark target model.

There will be individual examples of each, but if you took 25 of each and averaged them for the comparison ... "thar ain't no comparison."

Tom

T O M,

I agree.

Tom, interesting thought. I know that I'm more accurate with my centerfire revolvers than with my autos (maybe because the triggers on the revolvers are uniformly better), but I shoot rimfire autos much more accurately. I think you've hit it.

One of the struggles rim fire revolvers have is unique in this.

They require a very heavy spring to impact the rim based primer. My S&W 629 has the finest trigger possible. Finely tuned by an expert.

My .22 revolver has also had its trigger made to be its absolute best it can be. In single action they are actually pretty close. But in double action it's night and day.

The fact that a semi auto .22 is always in single action is the game changer when they are compared to revolvers. My MK II Ruger was a brilliant tack driver. My single action Ruger .22 was so bad I sold it off shortly after buying it. Yet now I have an SP101 in .22 that will touch holes at 25 yards for several of the 8 shots it holds. But only in single action. In double action that MKII would still beat it.

Definitely auto's.


DMc

What are the predominate handguns at Camp Perry and bullseye matches, custom or otherwise?

It will be a rare semi-auto that can compete with a FA or like built custom revolver.

Ed,

Bullseye! ( Pun intended) . Until I owned one and shot it a lot. I never really would have believed the potential of a revolver. But FA revolvers are at another level. I'm sure other revolvers can shoot well, but the FA I own is by a margin better then any other handgun I've shot.

I used to tinker and measure handloads and tweak and play with them to achieve the best I could. After the FA revolver I realized it was not the loads! This revolver just digests ammo and puts them accurately in the same place all the time. It makes loading on a Progressive so much nicer now. No more tinkering just crank out the ammo and the FA revolver sends them where I point.

You can pretty much take this to the bank. It perfectly outlines the difference between centerfires and rimfires.

Eh - I think you have that opinion because you haven't looked at the right rimfire revolvers. The fact that S&W and Ruger don't make any "bargain" revolvers also skews this issue. But I have a Taurus 94 that will keep right up with my MKIII Hunter and my Buckmark, when fired single-action. And how else would you fire a revolver when firing for long-range accuracy? And the 94 was priced a little less than a basic blued MKIII target. Before anyone pipes up with "Taurus handguns are junk", I don't see any difference in quality between the 94 and comparably priced Ruger and Browning pistols.

This is the rub. Semi-autos dominate all competition, and have for some time.


For absolutes in revolvers, yes, FA is the best. It's almost a custom gun. Mine (FA model 97 .22LR/.22mag) came with a test target from the match .22LR barrel that was under an inch @ 25 yards-10 shots!
But the stars of competition for .22LR dominance are not normally found on dealers shelves. We're talking Hammerli,Pardini, etc. These are semi-autos.

There's a reason FA doesn't dominate this. Accurate as they are, they're harder to shoot and probably not as absolutely accurate.

I think the same would apply to centerfires, as well. I have a S&W Model 629 custom shop that I've had trigger work done on that's sweet as candy to shoot. But if I would ever compete, I'd use my SIG X-5 or P210.

Maybe off the dealer shelves, in guns most of us buy, accuracy is nominally "better" with revolvers. But I really doubt that too.

It just depends on the models in question.

For example, hard to better the accuracy of the S&W Model 41, though I also tend to agree that some stock revolvers (especially of somewhat older vintage) will beat most autos for accuracy.

I was going to say back in the 70's when I was bull's eye shooting the S&W Model 41 was the gun to beat. The military specified the Ruger with 5" bull barrel because it duplicated the Ruger bull barrel with the built in suppressor that military was using for special combat situations. For the civilians they always used the Model 41.

It ain't all that rare for a large bore SA custom or FA to shoot inside 2" at 100 yards in the right hands. This I personally know and some do better. Tell me of a semi-auto that will consistently do the same?

Camp Perry?

Auto's always!


But, the most accurate handgun I ever had was a 8 3/8" K22 masterpiece. 1970's vintage. It's brother the 48 is very close also. Same vintage.

The K22 would outshoot my Mod 41 most of the time. Sight radius had a lot to do with it.

Big bore revolver by far. BFR is best, next is a toss between Ruger, DW and S&W. The SBH, SBH Hunter, SRH and others are good for 1/2" at 50 meters with open sights, red dots and scopes. Sorry, I leave out the Freedom because not all shoot. Let me show. SBH off hand at 100 yards with cast.
Same gun at 200 benched, Ultra Dot.
BFR in .500 JRH at 50 yards working loads.
Average groups, .475 BFR at 50, 100 and 200 yards, can shot twice at 100.
BFR .500 JRH, shotgun shell at 100 yards, Ultra Dot.

.22 pistols? Ruger or any quality semi will beat a .22 revolver but a few S&W K22's will equal. Freedom .22 is good.
Ruger slabside at 25 yards, 10 shots and I messed up the last shot.

Iron sighted, at the ranges shown. I suspect my Les Baer will do as well or better, but it also cost 3x as much, too...

Nice shooting, Tex.

Do you know about the forcing cone erosion issues with Lil Gun? Not trying to critize but help. Hate to see a great shooting 44 like that get ruined.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/7909618/Lil_Gun

Maybe this was a one time lot of lil gun causing the issues. I'd like to find out as it is a very accurate powder in most everything I've used it in. I find 4227, H110/296, and V110 accurate too, but lil gun has always seemed to provide the most velocity with accuracy more consistently across a wide range of calibers.

I am not a great shot with a hand gun but do shoot a few tricked out 1911s. out of the box my revolvers shoot way better..smith colt DW. but I must say I have a beretta 92 that will hold it own
for me it is more fit and feel. I don't shoot semi autos as well as revolvers. the big grip on the 92 is closer to revolver feel and I have more controol

Huh?

I started messing with lil gun in .357magnum, mainly because you were getting top end velocities with lower pressure. Then i read about the forcing cone issues and kind let it sit on the wayside. Still not sure.

Yeah, right.

Freedom Arms one of the most consistently accurate revolvers ever produce, that statement tells the limit of his knowledge. Dumbfucktitude runs rampant on the internet it seems

jwp475-


yup!

Every gun is different , example smith and Wesson kit gun in 22 LR versus model 41 semi auto ,, the model 41 will eat the kit gun alive ,where as take a older model smith 17 revolver and put it against say one of the less exspensive smith semi's and the opposite is true

Must be the magical wonderlube.

Have fun, doesn't bother me. JWP and I have a long history of disagreement because he is always wrong.
I can tell you how to make the revolver shoot, PM me any time. JWP has no clue.
Here is an original Freedom .454 with less the 300 rounds through it. Cylinder too tight, did not align with bore. The throats are worn oblong, the cone and rifling on one side are worn away. The target on the left is what it did with factory loads at 50 yards. I reamed the throats and recut the cone. I added a little play to lockup and the right target shows the difference.
Sorry JWP, there are two sides to toilet paper you use and you have it the wrong way. Why don't you tell these good people how to make a revolver shoot without repeating me?
.45 Vaquero, 5 shots at 50 yards from Creedmore using the 325 Lyman 452651 that drops at 347 gr.
Yo momma taught you to cuss but not how to load.

I suggest if you nutswinging experts can prove BFR Shooter wrong, post up some proof.

The nut wing is the ones that buy into bfr shooters bull. No one but him claims that one of the best most accurate revolvers ever produced is inaccurate. That is total bull

JWP can't and never will. The most accurate revolvers made are the BFR's, Rugers and S&W's.
I have shot Freedoms that equal but do not better and too many that are shotguns.
I have always said I will out shoot any revolver with a Ruger, any position, any sights, any distance.
How about a shoot off with JWP witnessed at 500 meters? Hey JWP, that is 547 yards. Not your baby step at 20 feet.
You get enough shots to figure drop, no problem. Then you must shoot five for record, any sights and position, use a Ransom with your Freedom because I know you can't do it.
Me! I will just shoot Creedmore, no bench.
Fact is I have never in all these years seen a single thing you shot with a Freedom, always some custom Ruger or such.

There are a lot of things that you ain't never seen, so no surprise there. I'll meet you in Indiana after the first of the year and we will both shoot iron sights

This is getting good.

Hone up on your "Kentucky Windage" boys.

Where do we place bets?

How about here with a few to record. You know I am on SS and can't travel. Even with 76 year old eyes I will beat you. Marko never beat me. Lee Martin never beat me. Lee made tater grooves on my range. Wanted me back at the single action site after he seen me shoot 1" targets at 100 yards. Naw, Taffin is there with ass draggers.
What have I not seen? Over 61 years with the revolver.
How about you showing 100 yard groups with your Freedoms. Could you be trusted? Yeah sure!
I taught Marko and he was always on the phone with you. I was a "go fer" did all the work. Set up tests, set up the chronograph, soaked papers. Always in the background. Do you know how I felt? Why the hell was he always on the phone with you?
Just who the damned hell are you? Maybe you should tell everyone what a big POS you are.

Well, this is the forcing cone of the above M629 Classic. It's had 1000-1500 loads through it, most of them jacketed full power loads, and most were with W296 and light (200-210gr) bullets. I switched to Lil'Gun in full-house loads, and got the best accuracy, but the erosion issue is indeed a concern. It's still a real interesting powder in the .22 Hornet, .218 Bee, and .300 Blackout.



I tried Lil'Gun in the .480 Ruger and it shot okay, but had more velocity variation than I liked. I think I'll try Enforcer in future heavy loads, and try not to exceed 1300 fps.

Cut me out of this pathology. Don't drag me into this.

You made the challenge and now you are craw fishing you are the one that always goes to personal insults because that is all that you have

Targets that matter

Don't know, but wish I had a farm to bet as bfrshooter would double the size of my holdings...

The real story is that bfrshooter/44Man/Jim Miner developed loads in somebody else's FA .357 and somehow managed to egg the chambers and bore. Bob Baker, president of Freedom Arms, stated that his handloads were 20% over maximum and that he never would've believed somebody could do that to one of their guns. He ruined the guy's sixgun and then expected FA to fix it for free. When they wouldn't, he decided to start his negative campaign. Funny how bfrshooter is the only one I've ever heard spout this nonsense about FA's not shooting well. Or that Rugers and BFR's shoot better. That these guns can manage half inch groups at 50yds. Or that magical lube will shrink groups. That he shot a 2.5" group at 500yds by aiming 20ft over the target at a tree branch. The real story is that it's all made up, nobody else has been able to duplicate his accuracy claims.

2.5 inch group at 500 yards from a revolver is miraculous that is a 1/2 MOA group something that is excellent from a rifle with a high power scope

You have it backwards. The .454 was only shot by the owner with factory loads and got worse as he shot. Brought it to me---THAT was the gun shot to wear.
The .357 had a perfect cylinder and throats but came from the factory with an over size and out of round barrel, second barrel was worse, .357" throats and .358" to 3599" out of round bore.
Baker blamed me, said I left lead in the bore from slugging. Then changed the story, said we shot lead first, then jacketed and ruined the barrel.
I never, ever shoot jacketed after lead without a clean bore even though it will not hurt since so many of you shoot jacketed to clean out leading, I never do. I clean out copper before lead and clean lead before jacketed. Get the story straight.
No loads shot from the .357 were over max book loads either. The load was 16 gr of 296 with a 158 gr bullet. Baker said it was too hot???? Strongest gun ever and he said 16 gr was too much?
First of all the owner shot many loads with sad results before he brought it to me, never got anything to shoot. He put it on consignment to sell at the gun store, two years later he took a huge loss to peddle it.
Maybe you should also stop telling lies and go back and read what I said.
It is true, nobody has made the revolver shoot like I do and I have laid out every step for all to use but I rub some wrong.
Whitworth knows and is a great shot. When we worked his .500 JRH, BFR load, he shot at a beer can at 100 yards, it did not fall. I took the next shot and it fell. This is what we found.


Maybe you should argue with Whitworth and call him a liar too. One of the best shots I have ever had here.

See the hole in the top of this can? 5 shots at 100 yards from my BFR revolver, Other holes from a friends .45 rifle.
50 yard groups with the 45-70 BFR and the can shot twice with the .475 BFR at 100 yards.

CraigC, I never challenge a shooter, just loads. But I will challenge your Freedom, so can you back up anything?
I have agreed with JWP many times but like you, he has a chip on his shoulder.
Why does truth generate hate? I have nothing against you.

As a common visitor to the site, I would consider myself pretty much a typical reader of posts here. There is an interesting way this has unfolded.

You have to ask yourself some basic questions on these posts.

If you were to read that a Rolex sucks because there was once a time piece of theirs that did not keep accurate time. But the Timex and Casio were brilliant

A Ferrari was absolute rubbish that did not handle well or go fast enough, but a Camero was brilliant and flawless with astonishing speed

Those Ziess Bino's were blurry and distorted, but the Tasco glasses were phenomenal.

The Dakota Rifle was rough and unfinished but the Rossi was built like a tank and had flawless precision accuracy.

Most normal thinking people would view this not with a skeptical eye towards the products but the poster. You know the saying " Consider the source" How could it be viewed any other way? I'm sure there are some bad examples of great products. However those are the exceptions rather then the rules.

You just have to ask your self what is the agenda of folks that go out of their way to go against the well established world standards of quality?

It's just a logical thought here as a visitor and reader.

It's the curse of the sampling of one. Everyone turns out a gun that doesn't work quite right from time to time. While I'm not a fan of the grip frame of the Freedom Arms revolvers, and am a bit frustrated over that...I will admit that every last FA revolver I've personally fired (about a dozen or so over the years) has been exceptionally accurate for a factory revolver. Are they THE most accurate factory production revolvers? I don't know about that, but I'd say they're certainly in contention. Dan Wesson revolvers when the barrels are properly tensioned, and Taurus Raging series are also exceptional in the accuracy department. But I'm not a fan of Dan Wesson's lockwork at all, and Taurus revolvers are just a bit uninspiring. But the FA is just magnificently built.

I have issues with every brand, found things with every single one. Magazine springs in Remingtons, cylinder stop springs in S&W's, very bad Dan Wessons, etc. Doing gunsmith work forever has shown all can have a problem except the BFR's, stock guns only need trigger work.
I always wanted a Freedom for myself until I worked on many, put the idea to rest in a hurry. Then the attitude of the company.
I will post about any gun without any response until I say anything about Freedom, then the world opens up. Is it defending the cost?
Seen transfer bars fail to retract, seen hammer blocks fail to extend, all are 4 shot guns to be safe. Seen some deadly accurate, others door stops. See too many for sale with huge losses. They do not hold value.
Is the BFR stronger and more accurate? Better believe it. You can offer me 10 Freedoms for one BFR and you will get a boot up your behind.
JWP keeps posting his kills but I have shot more deer with revolvers, five out of six this season so far. I shot one with a long bow and wood arrow. First is a large doe with the SBH, .44. Four DRT with the .475 BFR.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, I really don't care one way or another; such debates are only academic**. But your statements seem to contradict, and I�d like to see this cleared up.


Now here�s a couple of sentences I can agree with, and I�m sure most gunsmith�s would agree also.

But then you say this

Now before you step in and start swinging, let me paint the picture REAL CLEAR�Here�s what you said


Now you said all CAN HAVE A PROBLEM. And then you said except the BFR�s. See where that is a problem? You�re saying a BFR cannot have a problem excepting perhaps some trigger work needed. How is it that BFR is completely immune from all problems? Not even a Six-Sigma manufacture is immune from ALL problems, and I don't think BFR is Six-Sigma (or any other firearms manufacturer for that matter).

So, care to revise your statement?


** You're arguing a difference of MAYBE an inch at 100 yards. Even as much as 1" difference at 100 yards is never the difference between a hit or a miss on big game.

Too many think money spent will give a better gun. Not a single revolver built by the best custom maker will out shoot a factory BFR and most equal a Ruger. You might love the cheap Reeder engraving but the guns shoot no better then an out of box Ruger. You love the finish and fit of a Freedom but the fit is too tight and they do not shoot better then a Ruger.
Nobody has posted Freedom groups at any range to verify what they say. It is key board magic.
I forgot another thing, you love all the clicks when you cock your gun, deer hate them.

I own three BFR's, friends have sold all Freedoms to get BFR's. I have shot every one of them and the custom shop is perfect but production guns need trigger work, I get them to 1-1/2#.
Magnum Research has all castings done by Ruger's pine tree and all internal parts are Ruger. Then Badger barrels are used by Magnum Research, all are perfect when slugged, throats are perfect. No other revolver has ever had perfect dimensions from gun to gun.
The only difference between a custom shop gun and production seems to be the trigger. Easy to fix. Not a single difference in how they shoot. The production BFR is the most accurate revolver ever built.
Magnum Research and Ruger work hand in hand and cross guns.
I can not make my rifles shoot cast to even get near a BFR.

So you stand behind your statement that BFR revolvers are immune to any flaws? Are you saying that a BFR revolver has NEVER broken, or NEVER gone back to the factory?

I'm just trying to get you to look at the statement you made. You said everyone else CAN have issues, but BFR can't have issues.

You didn't say, I've observed issues with other guns, but never with a BFR...that would be a defendable statement. But to say a BFR "can't" have any issue...well, not to be rude but I'd say Bull-chit. If there is a human involved in any part of the manufacture of anything, it most certainly CAN have issues.

I think what you're trying to say is you've never personally observed anything beyond a trigger that could be better. But you've made an absolute statement; just trying to see if you really believe in such absolutes.

And you know "the real story" how?

It sounds like there were three people involved. BFR, Mr. Baker, and the gent who's gun is in question. Unless you're the gent, I think a court would call anything else "hearsay" testimony.

Now I have to call BS on that.

That's just sad.

Your ignorance is showing, yet again. Reeder builds his guns just like Ruger. He does not linebore, he does not block the action and I doubt he uses premium barrel blanks. Now to compare a stock Ruger to a best grade linebored five-shot from the better `smith's is where the difference shows itself. Of course, if one believes that Jim Miner manages half inch groups at 50yds, a claim made by NO ONE ELSE IN THE WORLD, then I guess you'll believe the rest of this diatribe.



Your claims are so fantastical that nobody has to post anything to refute it. Nobody believes it but you and your fan club.


I'll bet you $500 that if I drive to West Virginia you can't produce a half inch group at 50yds. Or if you want to come here, I'll pay you $500 just to show up and if you manage a half inch five shot group at 50yds I'll be the president of your fan club for life. Dead serious.

This is what I was told by Bob Baker in a situation where he had no reason to lie. Either way, his word can be believed long before this character Miner. You are free to call Freedom Arms and ask him yourself.

any quality HG with good sights are good

I would not really expect a diff

Snake

Both posts are spot on

What is so good about line boring? Do you understand the process? It is actually harder to get right and I would only trust Jack Huntington.
There is no barrel in the frame, just a fixture to start holes. Then the cylinder is removed to be chambered from the rear.
Now screw in a cheap barrel that might not have the threads and bore perfect. Make the cylinder so tight that a boolit can not pull it into alignment.
Check any Huntington revolver and see the cylinder play he left in. I wonder why he is so smart?
Most of you that dispute are just wanting a "feel good gun".
Funny nobody has shown what they brag about from the keyboard.
Make me angry? Naw, I accept stupidity in the human race, we have Obuuumber in office, don't we?
This is my 1000 yard pistol that will out shoot anything.

You did......

So sad that anyone reads what you say. You have shown nothing but a few animals that cost thousands to hunt, High fence?
Never have you helped a single shooter, never have you explained how to load for accuracy, in fact you never did anything but bloat your status to have ball swingers like CraigC swing from.
I don't understand why the moderators put up with your nasty and wrong posts. You must donate a lot of money.
I have no fear of being booted, I tell the truth and any site that keeps you is not worth being on. You search sites to find me, even read sites where I am a moderator and then bash me at another site because you will never be allowed on a good site.
You have even gone to sites I was not on for 3 years, got me booted, Sites I forgot about.
So sad for so many that want to learn, need help, to listen to your bull and back stabbing junk.

Do you??? I guess like everything else, you have it all figured out better than those who make their living at such things.



You think anybody is using a cheap barrel on a linebored conversion???



We're not the ones bragging but we typically don't shoot our groups on paint cans either. YOU are the one making the fantastic claims and YOU are the one bragging. Like I said, I'll happily drive to West Virginia and pay you $500 for a half inch group at 50yds.



Ballswingers??? How old are you? Are we in high school again???

I was going to keep quiet but I can't stand this [bleep],

JWP has helped me and many others on multiple sites. It truly is sad to see someone who says he is only out there to teach and help others learn to shoot better, use an internet forum for a personal vendetta just to make themselves "feel" superior.

You know what they say about the loudest voice in the room......

You are below kindergarten. I show what can be done and have posted how until my keyboard is worn but you don't understand a single thing. All was free to help and to make everyone load better. You ARE a nut swinger to a man that has no knowledge at all.
Come here to shoot and I will take your money.

You forget that I was a moderator on that site, at a higher level than you. I left because they actually believe your nonsense there (or at least JG believes 'some' of it) and I couldn't take any more. It has a whopping 150 members but only a scant few who actually post. It won't ever be any bigger than it is because of you and your fan club. If JWP (whom I do not even know) reads sites where you are a moderator it is because you start discussions there only to bash people and brands and it's the only place that let's you do so. Real tough to talk about people not present to defend themselves. Yes, a "good site", only good if you kiss the head man's ass. You falsely believe that if you criticize and berate respected industry folk that it will make you look more credible. In reality, it has the opposite effect.

Sorry Jim but you can't blame JWP. I don't know what you think you know but I made up my mind about you a long time ago when you posted your nonsense about 2.5"@500yd groups on SA.com. I don't need any help to figure you out.

Go "walk among the deer" a little more, I'm sure they miss you.

You didn't quit, you were removed before I even knew you were there. I also would have removed you.
But I have witnesses to my groups and can give you the E mail to one that seen my 500 yard group. Want it? Do you want all the e mails to those I shoot with and how they will not use anything but my loads?
Where you went wrong is asking to have me removed behind my back. To PM the site owner when you seen me there was your downfall.
I have a following because I don't lie to them and most have tried my suggestions to shoot better.

You're a damned fine liar. We had a heated discussion days before your hollow, so-called apology to the board. A board, I might add, that is simply a place for you to rant and rave about industry folk and Freedom Arms. Which is why I left the treehouse club.

I was not forcibly removed or asked to leave. I resigned of my own free will, deleted the contributions I had made to that tiny community and afterwards your little pals deleted my profile. No, I did not ask that you be removed. Even your buddy JG says he does not believe everything you say, including your 500yd group so you might want to ask him about that. Despite this, the hypocrite did defend you and still does. I tried to simply avoid conflict but I knew that I would eventually clash with you, JG or both. That is because I have very little patience for willfully ignorant people. You guys have a good place over there, you can kiss each other's asses all day long with no interference from the outside world.

For the record, I have never had any quarrel with anyone from that forum but you and JG.

Your problem is that you take a singular event as basis for proven fact. You take a fluke as gospel. You jump to conclusions without enough data. Even your buddy JG said this to me. You probably really believe what you post but are too ignorant to know how flawed your conclusions are. Your frame of reference is too narrow and you outright lie about your head count. You're seeking recognition and even if you really did have something to offer, you absolutely go about it the wrong way. Perhaps too much sipping whiskey and "walking with the deer". You can't become a star by degrading Taffin and Baker.

Offer still stands, you come up here and shoot a half inch five shot group at 50yds, I'll buy you two bottles of Pappy Van Winkle bourbon.

Must we revisit what it took for Seyfried and Bowen to shoot an inch at 100yds???

Taffin is a poor shooter, needs a Ransome rest or a young guy to shoot for him plus factory loads. Shoots 20 yards and only counts close shots. Baker is a money grabbing thief.
We might not be talking the same site so if you left on your own, you could not accept things to try because you know too much, common with all that want recognition. I don't want recognition and don't want anyone to bow to me, just try things I found. Don't like it --FINE, just go your way without being smart about it. Not a thing I ever said about loading and shooting is false and I could care less about what you think about truth with guns, it was found by real work.
Do you want the E mail? It is a friend that was with me when I shot a 6" swinger 4 out of 5 times at 400 yards with my BFR .475. First shot a sighter, friend told me where so I adjusted and hit the next 4 shots. Gave my gun to him, told him where to aim and he hit 3 out of 5. The target was what rifle guys were shooting, said I could shoot it. Some like you, packed up and went home but others came to see what we were shooting and could not believe it was a revolver.
Hard to get angry with you and if you came here to shoot you would also shoot as good with what I use. Understand it is not me, it is what I learned and anyone can do it. Too many of my friends shoot tiny targets at 100 yards with revolvers.
Hanging on coat tails of blow hards with no knowledge without seeing what thinking and work can do makes me sad. I do not hate you. Just get off the bus and do some work. I will tell you everything, PM or E mail. JWP has no idea and does not want to be proven wrong.
It stands all the time, come and shoot, you will shoot my guns and loads better then you ever thought could be done.
Whitworth was here when I shot a can at 200 yards with a BFR. Took two shots because I did not get drop right the first shot. Hit the second. He is silent and so is Lee Martin after he seen me shoot 1" targets at 100 yards.
Goes for anyone that lives close, all are welcome.

I've never seen Taffin use a Ransom Rest and he only started testing at 20yds recently. I know you think it gives you an opportunity to chastise shooters for shooting handguns at 25yds but that has been the standard range for testing for a long time. His work always has extensive use of handloads. I don't worship the man or hang on his every word but his body of work is undeniable. A little jealousy perhaps???

Baker called you out for destroying somebody else's gun and that is all. You still refuse to accept responsibility for it.

Whose coat tails am I supposed to be riding, exactly? What kind of crap has JG been feeding you?

Get off the bus??? I shoot all the time. Thousands of rounds of centerfire per year and usually +20,000rds of rimfire when I can get it. I shoot and hunt on my own property regularly. I'm in the middle of construction on a $60,000 addition to the house because I've outgrown it. This is specifically for leather work, handloading, gunsmithing and a library. Probably add at least two more progressives to the loading station, so at least four presses. I also have a Ransom Rest and half a dozen inserts for testing purposes. No brag, just fact, since you and Jay seem to think that all I do is sit here and repeat stuff. I just don't brag about stupid [bleep] like fluke two or three shot groups and lucky shots. So let us please dispense with the "get off the bus" and coat tail riding nonsense.

If I'm online, it's because I'M W-O-R-K-I-N-G.

How do you destroy a gun by slugging the bore, then cleaning it. The bore is clean and lubed first. How do you destroy a barrel by shooting it? Baker is a piece of *** and will not take credit for cheap barrels that run all over the place.
The truth is JG had a huge problem with me and sent me a PM expressing how he felt. He was very angry, it was on cast boolits. He thought what I said was personal but only JWP gets personal.
I don't like that *** and never get personal unless attacked.
JG found I was not that way and we became friends, most important thing ever. I would welcome you too, just lose the chip.
Nothing I do is luck, just hard work and truth. The revolver can out shoot a rifle. No luck groups, average from hundreds.
I still will not get angry, good luck making me so, I am here to help so why don't you try things? I am 76, too stinking old to want anything or put up to some stupid status.
You are getting tempered a little, I see it. Why do we fight. I do not lie or make up stories. Just why can't we respect each other? Your last post shows you work hard, not a brag, just a hard working man due my respect.
I feel you are a good man and everyone here should show you the same respect.
Can we shake hands?

Cat fight on aisle 7. Jeeeez.

Apparently bfrshooter missed the 2 above posts are could not comprehend then. He is now playing the sympathy card a common tactic of his as the losses credibility of his claims

bfrshooter egged every chamber from over loads not from slugging them. FA didn't think that was possible until Jim minor proved that it was. FA would. Fix that revolver for a fee and Jim minor has been on smear campaign ever since. minor thought that FA should fix it for free.

He also claims that the 1 in 18 twist of a 475 FA arms will not stabilize heavy bullets, therefore he ignores the SRH 475 custom with the 1 in 18 twist as accurate as any at his place. To acknowledge would prove him wrong. Therefore he ignores the facts

More lies from JWP. I never shot the gun, .454 original gun. He says I egged the cylinder when I never shot it. It was brought here AFTER it would not shoot and I fixed it best I could. The owner refused to deal with the company. (How the hell do you egg a cylinder?)
Only factory loads were shot from the gun, less then 300 shots.
JWP can't prove me wrong about twist rates, can't show proof.
The amount of lies and bad attitude should have you banned from every site. You twist everything to attack. Stop sending me PM's with your rotten comments too.
I wonder how many read what you say consider you a bastard?

That's one side but according to Bob Baker, president of Freedom Arms, he egged all chambers and the bore. Plus his included handloads were 20% over maximum. I do recall this being a model 97 .357, not an 83.

Your nonsense about twist rates is just wrong and so easily disproved, it's laughable.

Yes, as predicted, Miner is now playing the diplomatic victim.

PS, tell JG his jealousy isn't very subtle.

Do you have Baker's words or nut swinging from JWP? Even you do not have facts, it was an 83 in .454. Throats were egged on one side, not front to rear because the cylinder did not line up with the bore and the cone and rifling was worn away on one side.

Then the cone and barrel.

Nice ripples.
By the way, the 97 had perfect throats but bad barrels. I told you .357 throats and out of round barrels to .3599".
Seems facts elude both of you and you both lie.

You must forget what lies you tell on one forum when you start telling them on another.

I don't have the need or desire to lie. I have Baker's words. It was a model 97 .357 and your loads were up to 15.5gr and 16.0gr 296/110 with a 180gr XTP, which is 20% over published maximums by volume. He attributed the damage to improperly cast bullets and leading. But I reckon you know better than anybody in the industry, including top gunsmiths and manufacturers. Yeah.....right.

Also seems as though you've been claiming to be a gunsmith for over 50yrs but I've heard several references to you retiring from the airline industry. So who knows what is a lie and what is not???

Your own words:


You do understand that making claims no one else makes, being the sole critic of certain people & firearms and bragging about accuracy no one else is able to attain makes you look a certain way, don't you?

I don't know why you keep accusing me of being in cahoots with JWP.

There you go again, never shot the 180 XTP. But go to the reloading guide for handgun accuracy from IHMSA. Max loads for the 170 gr sierra is 16 gr of 296. The Speer 180 is 16.5 gr and the 200 gr Sierra is 16.5 gr. Since only up to the 160 gr was shot, go to the Hodgdon book and see that 16 gr is max.
Where the hell are you getting Bakers information from, you make it up, you got nothing from him.
Yes I worked for UAL 42 years plus a lot of auto and truck mechanic work, I majored in automotive. Also repaired TV's and radio in spare time. Gunsmith work also. I am a plumber, a builder, concrete man, roofer, furniture builder, electrician, name it.
What have you done when home from work?
Can you cut up a fallen oak and make this?
Can you take a fallen cherry and make this?

How about this from a maple plank?

You only prove you know nothing about me.

Others here see what I say but you are a sad person. Darn funny I don't cuss at you isn't it, it is because you fall into stupid and I feel sorry for you. You can't and never will do what I have done and never made the custom guns I made for others. I did not waste my life. I worked.
Sad to see useless people bash others.

Are we having a dance off with who can make the fanciest cupboard? My gun sucks and I usually hold it wrong, but will this still get me into the cool kids club?

I drew this....


And then did this...


And ended up with this...

Yes, 100%, very good work. But look out if you try to help "experts."

I built this addition on my house years ago. Drew plans on home made graph paper in my basement to the last board. Poured the footer, 4' crawl space, laid 300 block and piers for the beam. Did all the wiring and plumbing, roofing and siding. Changed every window in the rest of the house. I found I was 1/8" out of square putting up drywall. Only had a string level.
Other side.
Some that need instructions to use toilet paper always bash those that work.

Hold on while I whip this out........since we're in a "measuring" contest now. All very interesting but what has any of that got to do with this discussion?

Those are Baker's words and of course I expect you to deny it. Was that 2007 when you were going on and on about that on cast boolits???

As for the rest, I have a really hard time comprehending your incoherent sentences.

Baker's words, just where did you get his words? You only have what I said he accused me of. OOPS, a piece of lead in a barrel will make the barrel out of round! How about if the barrel is cleaned first?
You are as sad as JWP that knows nothing about powder burn, twist rates or barrel lengths. Follow the stupid man and you will see 88 gr of 4831 burns in an inch in the 300 Weatherby so it can shoot the same from 2" as it does from 26".
He has never, ever shown any proof for what he says. Just a couple of dead animals or a target shot at barrel length.
You have never done a thing in your life. Some here have shown what they did and get full respect but you have shown nothing but keyboard pounding.
The man that built his own home puts you to shame, you could never do it.
Now get off your butt and show what you do.

That's all very interesting but I'm not sure how it's relevant. Must just be your way of trying to deflect and win an argument you can't win because it's built on lies. You know nothing about me, certainly not enough to pass judgement. Unlike yourself, I don't feel the need to brag, which is usually an indication of insecurity. You appear to have an abundance of that.

I know a thing or two about construction, being that my father was a construction worker, carpenter, concrete man, paver, roofer, etc, etc.. I was 8yrs old when I first helped re-roof the house and 10yrs old when we built a 4300sq-ft house from the ground up. From the footer to the shingles and everything in between. It's been 30yrs but I believe the only thing farmed out was the chimney and fireplace. None of which is relevant to this topic, unless we're just having a pissing match.

I also learned that building your own house is wonderful if you have the skill and back for it but back injuries have a way of changing your life. Me and the old man got smart enough to make enough money WITH OUR BRAINS so that now we can pay somebody else to break their back. At 39yrs old, I probably pay more in taxes than you ever made in one year, in a business that we built from the ground up. So no, you have a long way to go to impress me. It's probably best we get back to the subject at hand.

Whatever this problem is you have with JWP, it is with JWP. I'm not him, I do not speak for him so you can address me as an individual. Not a minion.

The closest thing I can post in this retort that comes even close to being on topic might be an example of "what I do" when I'm not working.

And how exactly do we know at what range you shoot your targets??? Any knucklehead can post anything online and claim it's something it's not. Which makes this whole thing rather silly.

You sure change the subject a lot. For the pissing contest here is a photo

A valid point that escapes him

Now that is great work and I really like it.
But I never made a lot of money and never charged too much for the work I did, because I would never over charge for my work, I would do two jobs for the same as a cheat did for one. Doing so made me a lot of money, but not rich because I took over the entire area for TV repairs. I lived 20 miles west of Cleveland Hopkins but got TV repairs from east Cleveland to half the state south. Word of mouth and trust.
More gun work then I could handle. I would never be rich from gun work and did a lot free. I still do a lot free for friends.
Never wanted to cheat and have pride in what I did and built.
Only one thing I never got into, air conditioning so I pay for that and have a good company that does it. Yet the fan quit and I found the starter capacitor failed, bought a new one for $10 and fixed it. Was down to a neighbors, he does not live there, just a summer house. Heard noise, found the fan was not working and the compressor was HOT. I pulled the breakers and called him, told him the capacitor was shot. Cost him $90 to replace it.
Glad to see you do not follow JWP. He showed welds but I can also weld.
You are showing things about yourself that you are proud of and should know I do not lie, I really do shoot the distances.
The more you say, the more I like you, why do we argue? Your life was almost the same as mine was.
I will not respond to your posts anymore, you are an honest man and I just can't say bad against you.
You say you hurt your back and that bothers me, so how about some prayers? Will everyone else here join in?

JWP--You dumb [bleep] I am a top certified high pressure pipe welder. You are at best a rod burner not the same.

_________________________

My response--Big deal, you can't load or shoot. Tell them how to weld but you know nothing else. Could I weld the pipes, darn right.
What is the bevel angle for for cross country pipe welding? What is the electrode position, what are the internal alignment fixtures? What is the first bead called? What is the backup ring? What is the root gap without a backup ring? What is the amp change for each weld pass?
You think I am stupid?

Not kosher to put PM's on the post, I admit it and apologize but it is getting out of hand. The hatred is over the mountain. I will leave by myself since it has gotten so bad.
I leave it up to good people and what I should do.

BFR, Do you realize with all your ramblings and dick measuring BS, you sound like a loon?

+1

I'm thinking insane

Yep. Marbles scattered.

It's so scattered and random, I can't even keep up with it anymore.

True guys, it because of the ramblings of those that tail drag or quote others and never do the work or learn anything but want to sound smart. I work, never repeat what anyone says. The fact is most written words about shooting is from some rag writer that can't wipe his butt. Follow Taffin when he ruined his wrists by not holding guns right, then has a young guy shoot for him at 20 yards or uses a Ransome rest. Shoot six shots but only count the three or four best. Look at his latest when he ignores shots out and does not include them in the list. He will call a group 1/2 at 20 yards but had several shots that took it to 2". What a stinking liar.
Craig and JWP have never, ever shown a single thing but keyboard shooting and bluff. Never seen a picture from Craig and only large animals from JWP that anyone could shoot with money.
The net is full of liars, you think I am one, Fine go your way and suck at hind tit.

I own some very high quality short recoil pistols. But the three handguns I shoot the best are my Buck Mark(blowback), CZ 83(blowback) and my Detective Special in single action. The only connection between the three is a non moving barrel.

Edit: I guess there is one more thing they have in common and that is they all weigh quite a bit.

The trigger pull and the sights make the biggest difference in my mind. Somebody told me 95% of accurate pistol shooting is in your mind.

My no. seven deer for the season. .475 BFR. One with the .44 SBH, one with a long bow and wood arrow, the rest with the BFR.

Not true, 95% is how you load for accuracy, then you. Nobody has ever failed to shoot with the right loads here and some beat me with my own loads.
I shoot no better then anyone else. I shoot better loads.
But fat heads want to challenge with no proof. Not a single fat head has posted what they do at more then a few feet or with a large animal at close range.
When I was young with vision no fat head ever could out shoot me. It was because I made guns shoot.
Too many keyboard shooters today.
Craig, you have never shown a thing. How about a golf ball at 100 yards? Get your butt over here and show me and everyone else, I will back you up if you hit. Bring 200 rounds and fail, I will do it with one shot. Not me, just accurate loads so if you shoot mine you can do it.
You are sucked into rags and false junk from fat heads.

Spot on........

What proof have you shown? A picture of a hole through a can isn't proof of anything

My longest kill was a pig at 218 yards with irons on a 45 colt 325 grain hard cast.

This was taken also with a 45 colt 310 grain that I cast from a LBT mold LFN at 150 yards

Fat heads and ball swingers? How old are you??? At least we're talking about shooting now and not construction or welding. I don't know where you get t his BS you spew about me but it sounds like you're the one being prompted. You're the one whose ear is getting pee'd in. The question is, who is it exactly that has pee'd in your ear?

What do you want me to show? If my primary issue with you is your claims of shooting 1/2" groups at 50yds, how is a picture of 2" groups going to prove you wrong? How are my pictures going to be any more credible than yours? Besides the fact that I don't have your reputation as a bullshit artist. I could, just as easily as you have, shoot groups at 10yds and claim it was 50yds or 100yds. So who really cares???

However, if I did post pics of groups I've shot, it would be several consecutive five shot groups, shot at the same distance and at the same target type. I don't shoot groups on golf balls or paint cans. I don't get two shots in the same hole on a friggin' paint can and claim that that particular sixgun or brand of sixgun can shoot one hole groups "if your load is accurate". I don't take a singular, statistically insignificant event and make it gospel.

I think that loading concentric, precision ammo will improve any shooter's confidence, especially at long range when those variables cannot hide.

But at the end of the day, the ability of the shooter to align sights and make the hammer drop when a dozen things are going on is what sets shooters apart.

If an NBRSA benchrest shooter is calling an NRA High Power shooter a "Fat Head", I really don't see anything positive that will come from such bloviating.

Anyone who has succeeded at both deserves a modicum of respect, and one who has done such is usually pretty silent, leaving arguments for the masters of one, in my experience.

I don't care how good your loads or factory ammunition is shooting, to be accurate and minimizing your dispersion it is about a consistant grip and trigger squeeze. The load is and always will be secondary, I recomend you reread "How To Hit With A Hunting Handgun" by Ross Seyfried

In regards to mind set the best shooters will always have the ability to shut out the distractions, look at shooters like David Bradshaw, its all about focus