I read the entry on the .204 Ruger in ammoguide.com and it said that they (Ruger) brought this round out for varmints and target
shooting.Granted that K. Bell brain shot many elephant wearing 200 pounds of ivory with a 7x57; though I believe that the speci-
fics of his hunting in those days justified the use of that round. And he was killing elephant to put bread on the table, not for enter-
tainment. I'm getting at the idea of being merciful to the animal. I mean you and I want a clean kill with one shot. Do you all that
shoot deer with .243 Win and smaller turn down certain shots that you would have taken if you'd been carrying a .257 Roberts or
larger caliber rifle?
Years ago I read an article in which Mr. Peterson, (of the publishing empire, and a man who'd hunted EVERYTHING world wide)
reported that his favorite hunting was for duck using a .410 because he HAD TO wait for the ducks to be Very Close. He enjoyed
the challenge of getting them to come so close to him, so he intentionally diminished his shooting opportunities. Is this the reason
that you choose sub .257 caliber rifles to deer hunt, to intentionally diminish your shooting options to make the challenge greater?
I've only made my four deer kills with open sighted percussion cap muzzle loaders, and that might be the most fun way to hunt in
my opinion. All under 50 yards. My center fire rifles are unscoped. I have hunted deer with them a few times, but have not had a
shooting opportunity with them. Maybe I'll add a Q.D. scope mounting set-up on one of the C.F. rifles to allow for more chances to
shoot. But back to my main question, why do you hunt deer with these .204s .22s of various breeds, .243s and .17s and other small
rounds ?????
Thank you for helping me to understand this aspect of deer hunting.

BigFiveJack

GeeWizzzz! everyone knows a .243 or 270 bounce off deer, and the 257 Bob, is a real killer, the 204 is a varmint round but what you use it or any other round for, is on you. DUH !! Rio7

There's not a shot I'd take with a 257 Robert's that I wouldn't take with about any 6mm or 22 caliber rifle firing a similarly constructed bullet.

The difference in their killing abilities are minimal to non existent.

I'd go even farther to say that I'd greatly prefer a large 22 cal round or a 243 sized 6mm shooting heavy for caliber, high BC bullets to about anything you can shoot out of a 257 Robert's for deer.

With good bullets the small calibers work fine for deer. Most of the “guidelines” for caliber selection are rooted in the old days of guessing at velocities and poorly performing bullets. Those days are gone, thankfully. And in the end they’re just deer, most of the deer killed in the US every fall are likely 150lb or less. I’d challenge anyone to find a deer that a 77 or a mono metal of about any weight from a 223 won’t penetrate one or both shoulders.

Have always used a 270 or 308

There is a difference between shooting deer and hunting deer.

If you have the luxury of picking your shot and deer that aren't alert, you can take your time and wait for a deer to present an optimal point of aim.

Mule Deer has written about the success people he knows in South Africa have had using 55 grain 22-250 factory ammo to cull animals and who is going to argue with John?

Don't forget that Kevin Petrzilka's 204 4/8" typical whitetail was taken with an old Remington 788 in 22-250 shooting handloaded 55 grain BTs.

I've shot a few deer with the 223 WSSM and 22-250 without any trouble, but these were deer that didn't know that I was there and were blissfully going about their daily business when I killed them. Unlike Kevin Petrzilka, I don't think of the 22-250 as an optimal medium game hunting cartridge, but I don't have a B&C record whitetail hanging on my wall, so who is right?

The 0.224" bore whitetails that I've killed died via 60 grain Partition and 64 grain PP, both "game" bullets, not "varmint" bullets.

Have shot quite a few Alabama whitetails with a 243 using bullets ranging from 80 to 100 grains. Within reasonable range (usually 150ish yards), have never had a problem with broadside or quartering shots. Usually laser beams right through.

At one time a 22 rimfire was legal to hunt deer in Michigan's zone 3. Maybe not optimal but legal. Seemed to work for a number of years.
Personally I'm not a fan of heavy for caliber bullets in the 22 centerfire or 6mm's but they are not needed for the ranges I'm comfortable with.

I have about decided that these sorts of questions are all up to personal preference and comfort. If you’re not comfortable shooting smaller caliber rifles at animals, don’t. I’m not gonna judge you either way.

For me personally, it doesn’t matter what size caliber I have in my hands I’m always looking for a ethical broadside shoulder crease, shoulder blade, low front shoulder shot. I’ll make adjustments for quartering away or quartering to presentations, but I’m always looking to put a bullet in the heart lung area broadside. The only time I’m shooting a deer running is if somebody I’m hunting with made a bad shot and we’re trying to put the animal down. Even then I’m still looking for heart/lung No matter what caliber. And yes, I have turned down shots of trophy deer because they were facing dead straight at me, or they were walking directly away from me. And I had plenty of gun that would’ve put those animals down quickly and ethically.

Ultimately, it is a personal choice what caliber to use and what bullet to use.

For sure. The 95 BT and recently the 105 HPBT have worked like a champ. The 77 TMK from a 223 or larger works the same as far as me and my clan can tell.

I use different, meaning larger stuff cause I want, not cause I believe they kill deer any differently.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


THIS. EXACTLY


The .204 and the .17s are the only two that are hard to find premium bullets suited for deer and such. They are out there though ( Hammer Bullets...) All that said there are plenty of .224 caliber bullets suitable for bigger game nowadays. For deer and hog sized game now I consider my .243 to be pretty big and it no longer gets much use.


I figured we were overdue for one of these threads...

6 of my grandkids killed there 1st whitetail with a 223 shooting win power points 62gr. Rifle is an early savage axis which I use for coyotes and beavers. Grandkids graduate to using a 243 as they grow. No flys on the 243 for whitetails here on the farm.

If there was a shot I wanted to make but I didn't feel my 243 with a good bullet would cut the mustard then it would take a lot more than a 257 Roberts to get me to pull the trigger.

Exactly…

Unless changed recently North Carolina has no cartridge restriction for deer and bear. Had a guy tell me he hunted with a 22 magnum because of a bum shoulder. Always made neck shots. Yeah,right.

Used to cull blacktail with a 22lr. Inside of 50 yards and brain them DRT.
In my old age I have gone to smaller calibers for deer.
Went from a 30-06 to a 270.
Good hunting.

I know that I've read many reports of guys using 25-06 rifles for decades hunting deer, and likewise the .257 Roberts.
A guy's gotta draw a line in the sand somewhere, if he's to put out a question as I did. My main focus of my question is
to learn if you all would choose NOT to take a given shot with a smaller caliber, that you would definitely take if you'd
had a larger caliber.
Years ago a guy told me his thoughts on going on TRAVELING hunts. Because he'd paid a lot of money to go over
a thousand miles away from home for a guided elk hunt, (we were on the east coast) he bought a .338 Win Mag
with the strategy that he could take successful shots with it because of it's penetration and energy delivery, shots that he
could NOT take with confidence using a caliber that delivered less energy, deep enough into the beast. He bluntly said
that he took his excellent elk with a shot from directly behind the elk at just about 200 yards.
He continued by saying that guys who live in elk country might choose a smaller caliber, and might refuse certain shots,
because they can get into the elk forest many more days per year than the guy who has booked a distant hunt of a week
or ten days. The traveling hunter wants to be able to take just about any shot angle, at just about what ever distance,
because he doesn't have a month or three to hunt his quarry.
All this brought me to the general question of intentionally using smaller calibers on deer and heavier game. I appreciate
the many honest and constructive answers that you all have posted up. Thanks as always!

I just wish for once we could have this conversation without Karamojo Bell being brought into it. Keep dreaming right

I call it irrelephant hunting.

I like it

I travel to hunt elk and my primary elk rifles are a pair of 270s, a CLR for overwatch and a 760 for black timber. I always keep shooting until the elk is down, as wounded elk seem bent on finding a place to die that makes recovering it as difficult as possible for the hunter.

I don't know anybody who lives in elk country that would pass up a shot on a big buck or bull that a travelling hunter would take. Point is, residents often use smaller rifles than travelling hunters, not because they're happy to pass shots because of the limitations of their rifle, but because they've seen enough critters killed to know that the smaller rifles work just as well.

It's all about the bullet and its placement into the critter. The caliber and chambering are secondary considerations somewhere down the list. There are very few shots I would take with a larger rifle that I wouldn't take with a smaller rifle, but there are plenty of shots that I would take with certain bullet designs but not others. For example, several times I've seen the 105 AM pushed hard from a .243AI come apart in the chest of large Alberta WT deer, leaving red soup inside, and many times I've also seen the 85X/TSX/80 TTSX penetrate stem-to-stern on similar Alberta WTs and do enough damage to kill about any game animal in NA. If I'm taking a shot up close and at a steep angle, I know which of the two bullets I want in the chamber. Similarly, if taking a close shot at a steep angle, I'd prefer a .243 and 80 TTSX to a larger rifle with light-for-caliber C&C bullets driven fast.

My daughter has killed four whitetail with her 223. All were 120 lbs or less and no shots were over 120 yards. We recovered all four deer, but one of them was a tough tracking job. It went about 80-100 yds through some thick brush with very little blood trail. The shot was a double lung with no exit. Two of shots were neck or spine shots with no tracking required. The fourth was a shoulder shot where the bullet (Barnes 55 grain TSX) fragmented and one shard happened to clip the spine and paralyzed the deer but did not kill it. I had to walk up and put the deer down with a head shot. Not a pleasant experience for my daughter who was 13 at the time. The ammo used was Hornady 55 grain soft point and Barnes 55 grain TSX. The reason we did not use heavier bullets was because our CZ 527 did not stabilize heavier bullets very well. Heavier bullets would presumably have worked better. I am not anti small bore for deer, but definitely prefer a nice easy to follow blood trail for deer than don't go down on the spot. The brush can be really thick down where we hunt and tracking can be a real chore.

I am in agreement with Jordan here. I will also add that I don’t care what rifle you are using, shooting an elk in the ass is not a high probability shot and will most likely lead to a lot of lost meat due to all the contamination due to blowing up the bowels and guts. Taking a shot like that deliberately on an elk to deer would get you kicked out of my camp.

I hunt red deer with a .44-40 sometimes, which people think is underpowered for deer that are nearly elk sized. But a .222 does more damage than a .44-40 does, and a deer hit with a .44-40 will go the same distance he will hit with a .270. Here's the lesson - deer, even big ones, are just not that hard to kill with a rifle.


WDM Bell is relevant - because he wrote that 50 grains in the right place is worth more than a thousand grains in the wrong place, and he spent the latter half his life in Scotland hunting red deer with the .22 Hi Power and the .22 Swift.

Elephant and FMJ's are not germane to the discussion

I havn't mentioned them. Walter Bell wrote about hunting deer as well you know. It wasn't all elephants and sun helmets.

Right but go back and reread the OP

A smart fella once said

"Bullets matter more than headstamps"

And

"Average Joe Hunter is over cartridged, over scoped and under bulleted".

Can't say I disagree.

What do the Germans have to do with any of it?

Lol thanks. Saved me the time.

The GOTdamn Germans got NOTHING to do with it!

Exactly

In answer to the OP's question, I was hunting a blacktail buck with a .243 bore and he saw me first and was disappearing into the thick scrub. The only available shot was right up the rear end. I didn't take the shot. At the time I wished I had a 338 Win Mag (or bigger) with me with 225-250 grain TSXs. Then I would have taken the shot.

I always thought you needed a 7 mag for deer, but a 243 will kill them fine at reasonable ranges. Grandkids learned me that, dropped them dead.

Parker Ackley proclaimed the 220 Swift , with proper bullets.
To be the best one shot deer killer of all time.

Dave

I have seen Whitetail and Mule Deer, and Elk, Exotics, shot damn near every where they can be hit, from their feet to the tip of their ears, and all parts in between, there's no , bullet, no brass, no primer or powder,no head stamp, that will fix a poorly placed shot. Rio7

If they're running in thick cover, you can't always get that perfect shot.

Ethics of the shot aside, I would have zero hesitation with a .243 and 85 TSX or 80 TTSX, in terms of capability.

Oh brother....

Riflehunter, The perfect shot is rare if you kill a lot of deer, be sure you take a good shot, or pass, there's lots of deer out there. Rio7

I've killed 2 with my .223 and 55 gr. Sierra handloads. Both shot through ribs and lungs. Worked good. Don't use it anymore.

I agree 10,000% that the correct high quality bullet is a top essential in the equation.
If the "way imperfect", but "makable" 200 yard elk shot is presented, and three guys
have the same rifle, scope, bullet, etc. standing side by side, and they are are equally
skilled marksmen, but one guy has caliber .338 Win Mag, one has caliber .270 Win,
and one has caliber .223 Rem, the great majority of you have said none of these guys
has better odds at killing that beast. I understand the consensus. Riflehunter has
stated a different opinion quite clearly. Thanks for all the feedback; it's very enlightening
to pour over!

Just stirring the pot…..

They sometimes have a lot to do with my posts. When I proofread I sometimes realize my keyboard on my phone is still set to Deutch for my German courses and autocorrect is changing some words to German. So now you know if any get through. Lol

Yes, I restrict distance and shots when using a smaller cartridge.

That said, I have killed one buck with the "Texas Heart shot" when I jumped him out of a washout at 50 yards or so. I had a .30-06 with 150 TSX which went in the rear ham and came out the chest. I took a similar, sharp quartering shot with the same combo at 350. These are just two examples out of all the deer I have shot. Most of them have been broadside or just slightly quartering. I wouldn't have tried either of those shots with a .223, which is the smallest cartridge I have used. I have killed most of my Deer (MD and WT)/Antelope with a 7mm Rem Mag, .30-06, and .300 Magnum in that order. Most could've been killed with a much milder cartridge. I use the 7mm because I am the most familiar with it, and the .30-06 before that.

My son used my .223 and 62 TSX on a Muley doe at 225 this year. One shot, DRT. Deer was broadside, standing still and shot was behind the shoulder. Similar results in the past.

The way I believe it works is like this. As your skill level improves with the more you shoot, the greater your success rate usually. Most of the time, this success rate will happen with any reasonable cartridge you use. But after a fair few successful shots on game, every now and then, you get an aberration. Perhaps 3 or 4% of the time. The bullet may blow up on a shoulder, or get deflected by bone, or fail to expand. Or the animal may move as you shoot, or for some reason the bullet doesn't strike the exact right place, or its a very difficult shot or its got a lot of fight in it etc. Its in these situations that some of the time, a bigger cartridge or heavier bullet or a little more velocity might make the difference in recovering a dead animal sooner rather than later, or not recovering it at all. But most of the time, these aberrations don't occur, so the tendency is to think there is no difference between using say a small cartridge compared to say a .270 or a .280 or 30-06.

Again friends, I am enjoying your well stated answers, and the lines of thought that you're on. Excellent exchange of ideas!

Eskimos use the .222, .243, 22.250 from parka squirrels to 1,000 lb polar bears. I wouldn't, but so far, I haven't heard of anything going south for the Eskimo. 14 years in the Arctic....

A fellow worker once shot a grizzly with his .243 up there, for meat.. Then around the bend in the ravine came her two un-known 2- year olds - and the only way out of the ravine was over him. 10 round's expended, 2 dead bears, another badly crippled. Back to the 3-wheeler up on the rim for more ammo to finish the crip.

3 days later, when I was helping him process the meat and hides, he was still white.... and not just racially....but alive.

Deer? Gimme a break!

The only other time I've seen anyone turn so white on recounting his experience, was a friend who served in the Merchant Marine in WWII. His account of his passages across the Atlantic under U-boat attacks was rather graphic.

30 years later, m he still turned dead white.

I'd rather the Griz...( BTDT)

I rarely hunt deer with anything above .257" any more. There are so many bullets that perform so well bigger isn't really necessary.

If it wasn't such a pita to post pictures, I'd post last year's pic and let you all guess what was used. That might actually be a fun thread.

Yeah. They hunt at dang near NIGHT, don't they???

LMAO,
Rex

I know what he wrote - there are also some others who wrote they wished no one would bring up WDM Bell in threads like this - but I am pointing out that Mr. Bell wrote specifically about successfully hunting deer with small calibers. Hence, he is relevant. Very relevant considering he owned a deer estate, and a .220 Swift Winchester Model 70.
I am adding to the discussion.

CH, I appreciate your contributions to the discussion.

Firearms are over rated, go hunt with a bow!

I've never understood why some don't just use a 22LR.
It is absolutely lethal, small, light cheap to shoot.


Head shot, spine, lungs. It'll do it all.
Shot placement trumps all, so I'm told.

Personally, I think the 22Mag does a bit better, but dead is dead.
And this thread is about killing deer with the smallest gun.


Maybe I shouldn't advocate for such big guns, I have heard reports the 17HMR
makes them lay down and die too. Quit that kind of stuff long before the HMR
came out, so no in person experience with it.

125 caliber bladed bullets?

That's not at all German to this conversation.😁


Next, someone will suggest a 21,000grain axe!😎

id would be...lets do it! but make it multiple choice..

Yep, I'd say you're right there in the main part of the thread.

Enjoyed reading your hunting. Good to see how others do it.

A 243 is probably the ideal deer cartridge and at reduced ranges and with carefully chosen bullets a 223 is adequate. I tend to hunt with something bigger, usually a 308. But that is because most of the places where I hunt overlap with black bear season and bear are more common than deer in some of these places. A 243 may be adequate for bear, but is not ideal

Blah blah blah blah blah

All the endorsements for small caliber cartridges being equal to large caliber cartridges.

Take your fast twist 223 to Africa and see how far you will get with that.

Yes there is a difference in what a bigger similarly built bullet will do compared to any small caliber bullet.

I've killed a truck load of axis using my AR in .223 with the 64 gr. PowerPoint and I shoot them in the same place if I was using my 257 Roberts or any other caliber. My latest fun thing to do is kill hogs with my CZ 527 in .223 with 50 grain Nosler BT's at about 3200 FPS. Head shots are just cool!

They certainly arnt equal on Africa game but if you are shooting some small Texas deer then it wont be that big of a difference. Obviously the animal you are going after clearly matters and shot placement is always king

I met several South Africans who killed plains game for a living that used 22 cal rifles. Two of them used 223s and the other a 22-250. Between them they had killed thousands of antelope with them on culling operations.

The guy who heavily promoted the .243 and .244 in the 1950's, and used them extensively, years later concludes that for African plains game you should restrict their use to no more than 200 lb animals. His 7mm Mashburn was better for the 200lb plus African plains game.

There's been a whole lot of info imparted in this thread!
Given that deer are overwhelmingly likely to be at, or under, 250 pounds,
the great majority here feel that many, many, sub .25 caliber rounds
are perfectly capable to be used in 99.9% of the shots that will be
presented to riflemen. I live, and I learn. Also true that a small few here
don't buy into that at all.

Don't forget that with a thread titled "Hunting deer with small calibers" you are probably going to get more respondents who are in favor of the use of small calibers than those who prefer bigger calibers. The thread title will give you a biased response.

I don’t know why someone who hasn’t hunted deer with smaller calibers would even respond in such a thread….unless it was to ask a question.

Very true, but those who haven't hunted with the smaller calibers views are largely irrelevant and so their exclusion doesn't distort the sample with bias.

But those who have never done it disperse advice freely about what you should use....

That’s right.

What all are you wanting to shoot up the butt with a big gun that weighs over 200 pounds?

All were taken with a .243 over a 2 day period 1 round per customer, Rio7

A magnificent 250 lb blacktail buck, that I may not ever see one like that again, and that I wouldn't want left crippled or wandering around wounded.

And they were head shooting I'll bet. The shot placement of the professional not the sport hunter.

A .243 Will kill critters over 200# no problem. Rio7

Yes definitely, when there is a perfect broadside shot presented.

.243 well placed shot DRT Rio7

The question is, will they consistently kill above 200lb animals as well as perhaps a .270. .280 or .30-06?

Yeah, it's been what, 2 or 3 months?

Based on this site it's apparent that male human shoulders have gotten much softer in the last generation or two.

Tell that to the New Zealanders who are shooting red stags with .222 and .223s on a regular basis. All the bullet size in the world can't make up for crappy shooting.

Not all the time. Lots shot through the ribs

The New Zealanders who are shooting red stags regularly with .222s and .223s on a regular basis will usually choose a bigger caliber if they are looking for a buck with a really excellent set of antlers at possibly over 300 yards or that doesn't present a perfect shot. I asked this same question just recently to one of them on this forum.

I don’t make it a practice to shoot deer or elk up the ass if they’re not already wounded. But I’ve shot tons, literally, of pigs up the ass with a 223. With good bullets it’ll break the pelvis or hip joints and penetrate up into the abdomen. With a broken pelvis or spine nothing goes far and a finisher is easily administered. I’ve no doubt the same would apply to deer.


Animals are generally not hard to kill if you know what you’re doing. Scramble their lungs, heart, liver, CNS, and they die.

Funny that it’s usually the ethics police crowing about small calibers not being sufficient and here we are talking about shooting animals at poor angles because they’re trophies. It would seem less ethical to my way of thinking to shoot a deer up the rear end with anything than to take a good shot at one with a smaller caliber.

You said it!

ETHICAL shooting. Meaning to take a shot that's a quick kill shot.
So, if a guy is a very fine marksman and shoots his deer or elk from
180 degrees behind the beast, from 100 yards out, using a .416
Weatherby round, that's a likely quick kill shot say some. But using
a .243 Win round it's NOT a likely quick kill shot say some. Maybe
others disagree. If you've laid out thousands of $$$ for this 7-10
day hunt, maybe it does make sense to use a big gun instead of
opting to watch your big rack walk straight away from you. And yes,
the bullet type and quality must be tops.

Sure, go ahead and make that comparison, just like the guys that supported women in the military. Sure there is a woman that can pick up 100 pounds, but I wouldn’t base the success of the entire unit on a good link in a weak chain.

Nice how the very relevant fact of using a .338 Win Mag or .375 with heavy bullets that hold together, when shooting at odd angles seems to be omitted when quoting what I said.

Your “credibility” is disappearing faster than shiit down a toilet. 👊🏻

Nope. Our heads just aren't as hard.

Well I haven't seen any evidence of the small caliber boys changing their views, so maybe their heads ARE as hard. And as far as getting softer shoulders in the last generation, on average far less manual work is done this generation than in years gone by, far less outside activities....except for a small percentage who work-out a lot, they are getting softer.

Yes, but in New Zealand people are not shooting deer with big antlers at 300 yards every day and do not expect too. They can go hunting every week of the year if they want. Mostly they are shooting for meat.

You asked me a leading question - and I replied about myself in the situation you described. But there are a great many people using .223's for the same situation your described. A lot of guys are shooting deer with .223's out to 300 yards and with 77-80 grain bullets they are doing very well at it. As well as those who just use a Hornady 55 grain SP and only have to shoot out to 200 yards max, and usually much less than that.

The .223 is popular for red deer, fallow deer, sika deer and chamois here, and some people Himmalyan tahr also. And the triple-two is part of the hunting culture. So yes, it is prevalent. But, let us also remember that the most popular cartridge in NZ is the .308.

What does all this mean? It means that even big deer are not particularly hard to kill. And when you can shoot as many as you like on every day of the year, with no legal minimums, people gravitate to whatever is practical. The .223 is a practical deer caliber for NZ conditions, having advantages other than just its killing power. But so is the .308.


Oh, and from the South Africans I know, they use the .223 and .22-250 in Africa really a lot.

Would you agree that usually there is a significant size difference, between an ideal meat deer (possibly female) to a big old stag?

What are those jack rabbits ? LOL

If they were jack rabbits, they would get under the enclosure fence that you can see in the background. If they were deer, they could jump over that fence. They must be blackbuck antelope!

Then there is the argument that since shot placement is priority 1, and the .243, with its much lesser recoil, is more conducive to practice and shot placement proficiency, it may be more likely to give the result of desired bullet placement and a clean kill than the .416, even on rear-end shots (assuming appropriate bullet selection for both).

Despite the chest-thumping of many on this site who are impervious to recoil, I would be extremely confident that if you took 40 members here, 20 random .243 shooters and 20 random .416 WM shooters, the average ability of the .243 shooters to place bullets at the desired POI, from field positions, would be substantially greater than that of the .416 shooters.

Blackheart, Yep!! every Damn one of them. Rio7

I've been shooting deer and hogs with a .223 almost exclusively for about ten years. All under three hundred yards with 55-62gr pills. Great results. If I have to shoot longer, I grab one of the larger rifles.

True, but if the distance is only 25 to 50 yds and instead of a .416 it's a .338 or .375, then the difference in accuracy will not be so great that the bigger caliber will not reach up into the vitals with an experienced and capable shooter.

So if a deer is out there at 350 yards and a .223 is in your hands, it walks?

or limps

Not to be argumentative, but dead is dead!

You’re correct that the people who have shared their opinions and results have not changed their views because some guys on the internet might need to shoot one in the butt so it doesn’t get away.

What would the man who cuts up all your deer meat for you think about that shot placement? Grin.

I used to do a bit of deer hunting with the 243 but my State then opened a concurrent deer/bear season so I mostly went back to my 30-06 class rifles because I'm always more interested in taking a Bear than a deer.

The best lesson to be taken from Bell is his study of animal anatomy and his emphasis on practicing gun handling and dryfire. It is amazing how good shot placement becomes easier w/ lots of practice and knowing exactly where the vitals are located.



mike r

Not wanting to be argumentative either, but in reply to your statement, if a bigger caliber gives a higher % in being dead than another caliber, then one gives more dead than the other. So in that respect, something can be more dead.

Mostly I cut up my own meat, except when with a guide. If I were to reach up into the vitals with a rear end shot with a heavy caliber and a heavy bullet that stays together, I would be pleased with that shot placement.

Well…that was fun.

It was.

Yep... I could hit it, but it would not have the necessary umph behind it for an ethical shot. Would it kill the animal??? Probably... I'm the only person that hunts my tracts and if it is one I want, I can come back better armed or get closer. I practice with my big guns at much longer range. I limit myself to 300 on the little gun.

Lol

More powder and larger diameter bullet of greater weight absolutely does not guarantee a quicker kill on deer. It doesn’t even make it more likely. And yes I’m talking about proper shot placement and not intentionally putting a bullet in the azz end of a deer hoping it runs full length forward.

Late for the show here.

To the OP, Some of my longest kills have been with my 223. I’m now enjoying a 6.5 Grendel.

I like using 25-27 grains of powder in a light, handy rifle, minimal recoil and noise with plenty of power to kill as far as I would probably shoot at a deer short of sitting in an elevated box blind with a heavy barreled magnum of some sort.

I’m learning just how over-gunned I have been for deer.

Plus I have 5000 number 41 primers to go with a couple dozen pounds of 4895 and 2230 with enough .224 and .264 bullets to feed a small city. Should keep me in the pork and venison for a while.

Good post

Most experienced hunters have figured out what works for them under the conditions they encounter. The trouble starts when we start to postulate on what DOESN'T work, usually without trying it. Deer are pretty easy to kill with well placed shots and incredibly tough with poor ones. The idea that a .216 Whizbang, or whatever, through the ribs makes a deer die should not surprise anyone. In my world, there's no reason to choose a very small cartridge but your choice is up to you.

I've killed deer with a 223, and seen them killed with a 22LR. However, as far as I'm concerned, the 243 is the smallest cartridge that I'll use or let my grandkids use.. Just because something will work for a certain job does not mean it is the best choice for that job. There are authenticated accounts of people using a 22 rifle to kill grizzly bears and elephants, but that certainly does not mean they are the best choice in that situation.

Now, as far as I'm concerned, I don't care what someone else chooses to hunt with, as that's their right. Cartridges such as the 223, will easily kill a deer, and much larger game as well, as long as you put the right bullet in the right place. But, I do believe that these smaller calibers should be used by hunters who know what they're doing.

Spotting hits, which is easier with the smaller rounds does have some value, to me at least. There have been times I have hit deer with standard .270/.308/.300 rounds, which during recoil I couldn't confirm the deer's reaction to the shot: if it went down immediately, if it turned around and ran the way it came from, etc. This is generally only an issue in tight cover, but it has been an issue for me before.

That is one of many advantages to using smaller rounds. It isn't all just about girly men not being able to tolerate that dreaded .270 Win recoil. That is a non issue that many anti .22 CF people seem to think is. I will say though, that to be proficient at 500+ yards I have had to put a lot of rounds downrange, to which standard deer rifle recoil and round cost has caused me to go smaller.

Last fall I saw two deer under 100 yards from where I stood, slapped down with a 243 and they could not have gone down faster if a truck hit them.

I know there are a million variables on this sort of stuff, but it sure seems like a 223 would have been just fine, if a 243 was a bolt of lightning.

All depends on where they're hit, what bullet, etc.

But I don't think, under 200 yards or so, that I would doubt the 223

I use everything from a .22-250 to a 45-70 because all will kill the deer we have in the area I hunt in . My most used rifle is a Remington 788 carbine in .243 Winchester. One round correctly placed and they are down within no more than 30 yards and usually less than 30 feet . What more would you want ?

With the bullets available back then, that was pretty solid advice.

Well said, this reflects my evolution as a hunter/shooter perfectly.


mike r

105 grain Speers were used mostly. And one more thing, he was National Benchrest champion...so there goes the argument of "you just need good bullet placement" down the drain.

With a 7-8 lb rifle, shooting a .223 offhand loaded with 60 grain projectiles or more, you loose your sight picture during recoil. If they are any reasonable distance away, by the time you regain your sight picture, you are usually not going to see the entrance hole especially if its very small. You will see the reaction just as much after you regain your sight picture with a medium size cartridge as a small one.

It’s not if, it’s when. Shorter runs and more blood on the ground are far better in thick stuff. So, while I’ve culled and killed my share with a 223, it’s not optimum if it makes the brush line. I want two holes, and at least one of them decent sized. Everyone has different terrain or requirements. 223s with good bullets likely fit in well with some of them. I’ve no problem with the idea of smaller calibers making stuff dead, it’s more about placement vs time windows….for deer AND shooter. I’d also feel better about a violent confrontation with a 9 or 45 than a 32acp….for some of the same rationale.

I cannot speak for T Inman, but something else that everyone in my shooting circles who has also migrated to "smaller" chamberings has done is added muzzle brakes or suppressors to our firearms. This allows us to stay on target through the shot due to recoil being significantly lowered. Again, it has nothing to do with us not being able to tolerate recoil, it has everything to do with being precision shooters, which takes a lot of practice.

I predominately use 6.5 Grendel, 7TCU, or 6X45 for all of my whitetail rifle hunting. With my set-ups, I can watch the impact on the animal and gauge its reaction through the scope.

Those who use a gas gun in .223 and get say 2 x 64 grain bullet holes in a vital area would approximately equal a 130 grain .270 in its effect...I would think.

I am not so sure my experience aligns with this.

62 TSX out of my Kimber Montana .223 REM and SWFA 6x42 allows me to see the deer’s reaction just fine. I don’t shoot offhand very often and certainly not beyond “reasonable” distances, but this combo does usually allow me to see the critter’s reaction. I also can’t say I have ever seen the entrance hole, as opposed to their reaction to the shot. Step up to the .22-250 in a lighter rifle, and I do tend to loose that sight picture.

Retaining sight picture when firing may be a personal ability. I can say for a fact 100 gr Hornadys with just above minimum load in a Model 7 .260 do not make me lose sight of bowling pins at 100 yards when standing offhand. How’s that for qualifiers. My son and I were chuckling about that when using up some old loads he started with at 7 years old. I suspect about any .223 load would act similarly. Just one example.

The only way I'd use something like a 223 would be if it was all I had available. Given that choice, I'd use it and not think twice. I have better choices and they are what I prefer to use. As others have said, where you are hunting has a lot to do with it.

No wonder you think using a .223 gives the same effect as a .270 or .280 or 30-06, bowling pins are already dead.

I’ve never turned down a shot with a 243 or 22/250 because they’re “smaller”. If I don’t get the look that I want, I don’t shoot no matter what I’m carrying. I think that just comes from maturing as a hunter, and age has little to do with that.

I have lost a couple of deer with an ‘06 when I was in my early 20’s, because I didn’t have the patience to wait for the right time to shoot. Ive killed lots of deer with a 243 and a fair amount with the 22/250, and so has my daughter. We’ve yet to lose one. The blood trails might be a little more sparse on occasion, but being cleanly hit, they’re laying close by.

I have, however, had to help friends track down and finish butt-shot deer, and deer shot around the edges of vitals. Most of em were using cartridges that folks think would give you an edge if “shot placement” is marginal.

Well, it didn’t help. I don’t think I’d look up from behind the rifle after gut shooting a deer and say, “ Whew, glad I had the 300 magnum !”

I think that your post is spot on.

It takes maturity to turn down a suboptimal shot when you really, really want to squeeze the trigger.on a trophy deer or a deer that you need to feed your family.

I've followed up my share of deer that other hunters put a bullet into, mostly deer that were shot while moving or even jumping over 4-strand barbed wire fences

Isn't it amazing that people tend to recount the times that they had perfect shot placement, or took the high moral ground and didn't take the shot...but no one recounts the stuff-ups they had and wounded game. From this, one might conclude that people tend to cherry-pick the best encounters they have and sweep the bad ones under the carpet and forget about them. But there are lots of instances of wounded or crippled game and I don't believe that its always someone else, or that it doesn't happen that much.

Regardless of which cartridges you're comparing, this line of thinking does not pan out in practice, IME.

You mean like this:




My experience is similar. Almost all of the rodeos I've seen were caused by poor shot placement, often with a cartridge that was larger than the shooter was capable of shooting proficiently (given their minimal level of practice and dedication), though a few were with smaller cartridges, and those that weren't caused by shot placement were the result of poor bullet selection.

If you’re referring to me, hey, I admit I’ve fluffed a few shots in my life. I’m ashamed to admit that I’ve lost 4 deer in 35+ years of hunting. Two with an ‘06, one with a 44 mag, and one with a muzzleloader. Two of them even after I’d “matured” and waited for good shots while taking the moral high ground. Poor shooting on my part.

Hey, it happens to everybody. And, there have been a couple of fiascos flinging lead and friends helping me follow up those couple. One with a 444 Marlin, and one with the ‘06. Thankfully those were recovered, and I realized that it was my impatience that caused it. It’s a rare person that doesn’t have it happen.

But, in reply to the OP, none of it was because of poor cartridge selection or being smaller caliber. It was my impatience and piss-poor shooting.

if they're running in thick cover you have no business taking a shot
i don't care what caliber your using or how good your shooting skills are or you claim they are

I’ve tracked a lot of perfectly shot deer that went a ways. It’s always easier with more blood. Bigger holes do that better. Perfect, broadside, double lung and/or heart….easier, shorter tracking is with the bigger holes and more leakage. Generally, they lose blood pressure/die faster with more blood loss. Just is. Unless you’re guaranteeing cns all the time, there’s no guarantees, regardless of chambering….but common sense dictates there’s better or worse, when that happens.

Whether the target is animate or inanimate, alive or dead has nothing to do with retaining sight picture and observing bullet impact. The combination mentioned did not produce enough recoil to prevent me seeing the result of my shots. This is nothing unusual. A mouse gun is not required to observe bullet impact. The last two bucks I shot were with 7-08/120gr TSX/ 48gr CFE223 from a Model 7 and a muzzleloader with 80 gr weighed of BH209 and a .429 Barnes 200gr pistol bullet. Rifle shot was 75-85 yds IIRC and the muzzleloader at around 50. Bullet impact and target reaction were no problem to observe.

I’ve actually never killed anything with a .223 but probably will take a deer or two with one next year. Having seen deer shot with rifles ranging from a .22 Mag to a .340 Weatherby, shotguns, and Broadheads I have no doubt the 223 will kill properly.

Since there are so many high horses to get up on around here, I will get up on one of them. I have been hunting deer for 36 years. In that time I have lost a total of 2 deer. One was a PA doe that I shot with a .260 Remington at 12 yards. I was using a Sierra 120 grain SP. I was walking up a power line towards my hunting partner and his daughter. There was soft snow on the ground so I wasn't making much noise. He and his daughter had jumped a couple of deer and they were heading down the woodline right towards me. I knelt down and they passed right by me. As the last doe passed just inside the woodline, I shot. Hit her square in the shoulder (confirmed when we got her up after a fair track job). It ruined her shoulder, but she still managed to go over 700 yards onto property where we could not continue to chase her. I can honestly say that if I was using a "lesser" chambering such as my .243 with a 100 grain Swift A-Frame, or my 7TCU with a Nosler 120 grain BT, that deer would have been in my cooler that evening.

The second one I lost was a bow shot deer. I muffed the shot and hit him a bit back. Lost the blood-trail after a couple hundred yards and before I could get a dog to the property, the sky opened up and we had rain for two straight days. Neighbor on the other side of the road (about a 1/2 mile away) found his dead head the next spring.

And before you say I must not hunt much, I have killed well over 100 whitetails, over 30 pigs, over 50 coyotes, a few Axis deer, and a blackbuck in that 36 years of hunting. I also fire over 3000 rounds of centerfire rifle ammunition every year, and have for the past 10-15 years, so I absolutely know my limits with every rifle in my battery. The largest chambering I have used to kill a deer was a 7mm Rem Mag, the smallest was a .22LR on a "sharpshooter cull hunt" in a city park at night with suppressed .22LRs and varmint lights.

.22 cals are not legal here in Virginia.

I was on a good run with a .243 and the 105 Amax for a while. 17 in a row (deer/black bear) went less than 5 yards.

Finally shot a buck, whose head and shoulder were behind a tree through the lungs, he went about 35.

Decent bullet should be a given, but it's placement, placement, placement. Deer aren't hard to kill, and they're not hard to put down on the spot.

You must never have hunted whitetails in northern New England, where the majority of shots presented are on moving deer under 100 yards in thick cover, probably the reason that pumps and semi-autos are popular among still-hunters and snow tracker.

I don't let my friends from NH carry their rifles on the first day of hunting season when they come to Nebraska, 'cause almost all of them want to shoot the first legal deer that they see. They aren't used to seeing a couple dozen deer nearly every day that they go afield, so they have to learn to be a little selective. I remember the day that I took a high school buddy out to an alfalfa field at dusk during the late antlerless season and there were at least 100 deer in the 80 acre field. My friend said that he'd never seen that many deer in all the time that he'd hunted in NH and VT, much less that many deer at one time and in one field.

Different situations dictate the use of different methods.

I'm much more likely to use a bolt action rifle in Nebraska and much more likely to use a pump or semi-auto in ME, NH, and VT.

I have shot 7 deer this week with a .22-250 and standard C&C 55 grain soft points. Granted they're not big deer, but deer nonetheless and not a damn one took more than a single shot, though I did have to cut one's throat after hitting a bit further forward than intended and broke it's neck. Two fox as well.

Love me a good .22 CF.

This is an imaginary argument. You can't imagine this is the case and then present it as if its a real thing. It's simply not true. Look, it's not a political matter of opinion - if the .22 centrefires didn't work on deer, people just wouldn't use them. You don't get an award for doing it.

Put it this way, I have shot a bunch of big red deer, the size of elk nearly, with a .44-40 carbine and black powder. I cannot give you any stories of stuff ups and wounded game. In fact, a deer shot with one in the rifght place dies as quickly as if you shot him with a .270 in the same place.
Now, a .223 has to be more effective than a black powder .44 -40.

Yeh, yeh, yeh just like all the deer shot at 600-1000 yds with match grade bullets instead of hunting bullets with a 6.5. None of those deer are lost or crippled either are they by all the "expert" shots who do it? Now that's really ethical isn't it? But I don't hear any of you guys jumping up and down about it. Having said that, I do know CH that some of you guys down there are very skilled.

Some of this stuff is internet gold....

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THIS!!

Think I’d go with gold plated zinc……

Have killed Kentucky White Tails with everything from .223 Rem to .375 H&H. From .243 Win up thru .375 H&H, not much difference. +95% one shot DRT's.

Shot three deer with .223 and C&C bullets inside 70 yards. Two required a finisher. Third one was lost, even tho I spent the majority of that afternoon searching for it. .243 Win is my personal minimum for KY WT's... JMO... YMMV...

I been hunting deer forever with me 6mm Rem. I got bigger guns but I chose to hunt deer with the 6. Have shot deer out to 300 yards. I’ve never lost a deer.

We are required by the TPW to survey and control the # of deer on our place, depending on our survey # we kill between 350- 400 Whitetails a year, most we ever had to take was 540, that was about 15 years ago. about 2/3 does, 1/3 bucks, we are not rushed to shoot , and normally only fire 1 shot, which results in DRT. and most shots are inside 200 yards, we choose to use 6mm more than anything else, little meat damage and it kills, we do not want blood trails, we keep tracking dogs, that take all the drama out of finding injured deer, use what works for you, that's what we do. Rio7

"Hunting deer with smaller calibers" Why would you? Unless you are very small or slight of build? My 9 year old grand daughter made a perfect lung shot on a good whitetail buck with a .223 this year that made over a 100 yard run and didn't bleed a drop on the ground. No exit either. She insisted on the .223 but that ain't happening again. I have loaded down some .308W with 125 NBT that don't recoil much.

That deer could have easily been not recovered in heavy brush or if looked for by someone inexperienced.

Hastings,

A perfect example of 1 Rio7

Just curious what bullet and shot placement?

SNORK!

It was a Hornady 62 grain HP sold in bulk by Midsouth. Was advertised as a hunting bullet. I might have done better to load the rifle with the 62 grain Barnes that hit about the same as the Hornady. I started using the Hornady because they seem to work pretty well on hogs and cost a little over 10 cents each versus the Barnes at over 50 cents, but heck what is 50 cents for a deer.

The shot was a perfect lung shot, got both lungs and did not exit, hence no blood on the ground.

I have helped track deer shot with small rifle bullets many times and some of my own with a 243. They will kill. They just don't leave as good a trail as bigger holes do. I prefer to use bigger and just shoot and watch them drop out of the scope.

You have got it 7!!

From THE COMPLETE BOOKOF RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS by Jack O’Connor ©️1961 by Outdoor life



Early American Stunt Shooters

The more of 'em I shoot, the more I believe in "boolits, not head stamps."

Shout-out 30-06 will probably become a 6mm Rem or AI.

I agree. If I hunted open country, an accurate 6mm of some sort would likely be great. Even if there was little blood trail or not even an exit, you are likely still okay. Where I hunt, a briar thicket or swamp could be 10 feet away, and you may just have to take the shot angle you get. In those instances, I do like something that exits more often than not and will usually leave some kind of decent blood trail. Of course, a DRT hit is preferable, but not always going to happen. If I'm going out to a field to shoot a doe or just rambling around with a rifle that might see some hog action, I don't mind toting a smaller caliber rifle, as things are either going to be easy shots or shots taken at a varmint of opportunity.

Its better to have a bit more gun than you need, than not enough gun. If you shoot a .270, .280,.30-06 even on the sub-200lb game, then if you hunt the larger game, you are not going to be afraid of the recoil and you're going to be used to the bigger gun, and be able to shoot it more accurately than if you nearly always shoot a tiny caliber. The exception to this would be if you are shooting a very high volume of the sub-200 lb game with your small caliber and occasionally also shoot your medium size gun.

Shootem, you really need to stop living in a pretend world. Use gold, not gold-plated, shoot at game rather than bowling pins, and seek reassurance for you views from experienced people, not your 7 year old son (or his recollection of experiences when he was a 7 year old).

I always love that the "big chamberings" crowd always assume that those of us who use smaller chamberings do so because we are somehow "afraid of recoil". I can guarantee that I handle the recoil of any commercially available chambering and do so with accuracy, which is something I rarely see with guys hunting whitetails with their .338 or .300 mags.
I own many big bore rifles. I can shoot them more accurately than most. I just choose not to because I don't need to. I can get what I need to get done with what I am shooting them with. Just like I own a 20lb sledge hammer and it will drive the hell out of a nail, but I chose to use my carpenters hammer because it just the better tool for the job.

The actions too big. Get yourself a Winchester Model 70 controlled round feed short action for 6mm Rem size and keep the 06 in 06

You must never have hunted whitetails in northern New England, where the majority of shots presented are on moving deer under 100 yards in thick cover, probably the reason that pumps and semi-autos are popular among still-hunters and snow tracker.

I don't let my friends from NH carry their rifles on the first day of hunting season when they come to Nebraska, 'cause almost all of them want to shoot the first legal deer that they see. They aren't used to seeing a couple dozen deer nearly every day that they go afield, so they have to learn to be a little selective. I remember the day that I took a high school buddy out to an alfalfa field at dusk during the late antlerless season and there were at least 100 deer in the 80 acre field. My friend said that he'd never seen that many deer in all the time that he'd hunted in NH and VT, much less that many deer at one time and in one field.

Different situations dictate the use of different methods.


i grew up hunting/fishing northeastern new york state adirondacks/along with its lakes ponds rivers and streams and vermonts green mountains and all over maine {,which we still hunt ny & maine every year ] so I'm extremely familiar with hunting/ fishing the east coast and what where when and how its done there .
ill stick with my bolt action browning x bolts from heavy timber in maine to wide open prairie here in montana my 280 ai & 6.5cm have killed animals just as fast and effectively at 10 feet in heavyy cover in maine as they have at 500 yards[which is my maximum distance i will shoot ] here in montana
seen to many biggame animals lost or need multiple follow up shots due to trying to shoot it on the run in heavy cover or shooting at ranges they miscalculated distance /angles on {thankfully I've never in 40 + yrs of hunting needed a second shot or lost an animal NEVER] ,
and i atribute that to the fact i won't shoot at a running animal no matter how big it's rack is [ i dont get all crazyy and weak kneed over the size of an animals head gear ]
i won't pull the trigger unless i have a perfect broad side shot .
if i don't feel comfortable shooting i don't pull the trigger i either pass or i wait it out to see if it will give me a broadside shot
i won't hunt with anyone or allow anyone on our ranch who insist on trying to hit big game on the run or claims they can accurately kill big game @ 700+ yards
like you said different strokes for different folks

I'm picky, but I'm not that picky.

Quartering angles don't bother me at all.

Yep. I wish it were true - but alas…nope.

I’m not even sure how many broadside shots I’ve been fortunate to enjoy - not many. A decently directed lead-dart has a funny way of penetrating from many angles thereby boosting my confidence & patience with almost every shot. I like the last rib up thru the brisket personally. I can move into position while they are moving away.

Btw - full disclosure no experience to note shooting deer below .24 cal - I’ve got a great load for my .222 & a 55g Horn SP & 50gr tsx but haven’t tried them. Other than the problem between my ears, they should work great.

FINALLY! An honest well thought out post!

Could you elaborate, please?

Well my son’s not 7 anymore. Quite a bit older than that. But we both have memories of hunting together through the years. He’s a good shot, a good hunter and a good son. And he’s almost as good at recognizing a ssholes as I am. Almost, but he’d have picked up on you quickly. Don’t speak of my son again.

Well, your results are different to mine. I've had an all copper bullet travel the full length of a large buck and the bullet exit out the ham without expanding...a second shot was required. I've had a bonded bullet blow up on the shoulder of a doe!! she dropped on the spot, lay down as if dead and when I went to get the pick-up, she got up and started to run off. A different time with a quartering away shot, the bullet skimmed along the ribs...it died but the wound was not what I intended. A quartering towards me shot, the bullet deflected off the shoulder and exited out the lower body...no second shot required but I was lucky. A buck shot behind the shoulder...I followed the blood trail for 200 yards and then the blood trail stopped. Spent the rest of the day and the next day looking for it...didn't find it and don't know why. A different buck with a picture perfect broadside shot, the buck moved as I squeezed the trigger...only one shot but I was lucky. Any then there are all the one shot kills which worked perfectly.

If you didn't reply to my posts in such a dogmatic manner, and were a little more courteous, then I wouldn't reply to you in a manner you dislike.

Thanks. I agree with your assessment that a Barnes, whether 50, 55, or 62 TTSX would likely have produced more desirable results.

I've read this entire thread, and one thing many hunters apparently don't realize (and perhaps wouldn't accept if they did) is that a 6mm bullet's diameter is just about the same as a .224 bullet's diameter when wrapped in an average (not deluxe) business card. In other words, there's no magical difference in diameter--or the hole made in animals, which is what kills 'em, not some magic amount of bullet diameter, weight or foot-pounds.

The difference, if any, between ".22" caliber bullets and 6mm bullets is basically in construction these days, since many modern .224 bullets overlap the weight of 6mm bullets. The big deal USED to be the difference in weight between typical .224s and 6mms, since there were very few .224s weighing as more than 55 grains, due to typical rifling twists of 1-12 or even slower. 6mm twists were generally at the very slowest 1-12 (as in the original .244 Remington) but more often 1-10 or 1-9. This made a difference in the weight of bullets that could be used, and that generally meant meant 6mm bullets were also started slower.

This was the typical solution to bullet penetration 100 years ago, when cup-and-core expanding bullets were the only ones available. But that started to change considerably in the 1930s when RWS developed their H-Mantle bullets, and changed even more in the late 1940s when the Nosler Partition appeared. But apparently some hunters are still operating under the "rules" of a century ago--which were extended in many U.S, game departments in the years after WWII due to old farts running the game departments, many of whom hated the very idea of using a ".22" on deer, or any other sort of big game, even javelina or pronghorns.

This has changed in recent years. I did some research a few years ago on U.S. "caliber regulations," and over 2/3 of the states now allow .22 centerfires on big game. Some states never had any restrictions, including my native of state of Montana--where even when I started hunting many years ago you could legally use a .22 rimfire. Apparently the Montana game department believed hunters were capable of choosing something that would work, while other states tended to micro-manage--including not only limitations on caliber, but bullet weight and even cartridge length.

Personally, I've not only killed quite a few big game animals with .224 bullets, but seen a lot more used successfully. Also know several guys who've killed elk neatly with .223s and .22-250s and didn't even use "premium" bullets! One was a U.S. Army sniper who did more than one tour in Afghanistan, who's been hunting and guiding since he was a teenager. He killed a mature cow elk with a 77-grain Hornady ELD-M (one of those horrible "target" bullets) at 450 yards, using a fast-twist .223. He put the bullet in the ribs behind the shoulder, and the elk went less than 50 yards before going down. He found the expanded bullet poking partly through the skin on the far side of the chest.

Could provide far more examples, but anybody who categorically denies that smaller-than-6mm cartridges aren't enough for big game doesn't know what they're talking about. It does NOT depend on a tiny amount of extra bullet diameter, but a bullet that penetrates and expands sufficiently, put in the right place.

In a way, these threads tend to remind me about those discussing the best brown bear cartridges. Generally, 90% of the answers are from hunters who've never seen a brown bear--and who tend to ignore the answers from guides who've seen dozens or even hundreds taken.

FWIW, I lump 224s and 6mm in the same group: I know they kill stuff. I’ve killed stuff with them. I just don’t like them in or near thick cover, in case there’s a tracking job involved. Bigger stuff makes that easier, IME. If I hunted the plains or other more open parts of the country where trailing isn’t in stuff you might have to crawl through, or there wasn’t a swamp, creek, or river a stone’s throw away, I couldn’t care less. You get the shot into whatever vitals aren’t behind something most days in the woods around here…..cns or not. You don’t always get to pick, and sometimes you get to watch them walk because they’re wearing oak vests and helmets the whole time. I don’t use my 223s or 6s in that….though I’ve culled plenty of field and crop land with them.

The earliest Nosler reloading manual I own is their second one, copyrighted 1981. It lists the 95 and 100 grain 6mm partitions. So there's been at least 41 year of more than adequate .243 penetration on ELK, much less deer, which are very thin skinned. The partitions might have been around even longer. (I'd be curious to know what year the first 6mm Nosler partition hit the market.) Bullets, powders, scopes and rangefinders have all improved dramatically since, but a lot of people still believe what their fathers and grandfather told them in the 60's and 70's.

Everyone who ranches around us killed their first elk with a 243 - except for those who used a 6 mm Remington. And I'd bet most if not all of those were with plain jane cup and core bullets.

TexasPhotog,

The earliest reference I can find to Nosler Partition 6mm bullets is in the 1964 (second edition) of HANDLOADER'S DIGEST, which lists 85 and 100-grainers. But I suspect the 6mm Partitions appeared not long after the .243 Winchester, which was introduced in 1955.

Mule Deer, the argument though isn't whether the .22 centrefires kill dear, it's whether they kill exactly the same as perhaps a .270 which has a 52% larger unexpanded hole size. Now its accepted that much of the time there won't be any identifiable difference in the results, especially on smaller game at close distances, but to say that all the time the results would be the same is where there is the differing point of view. Even in terms of weight alone, a 150 grain .270 bullet has double the weight of a 75 grain .224 bullet. Happy to hear your thoughts.

As MD said...........it's all about putting the right bullet in the right place. Far too many times a young or inexperienced hunter cannot put that bullet in the right place, which results in a wounded or lost animal, which in turn results in a certain cartridge being labeled as "not enough."

I don't care what caliber anybody else uses on game. I just don’t

I read through this again. A 223 will kill pigs really well. I have no doubt it will take deer with a good bullet. I think a .25 is the perfect diameter for deer. I have 25-06’s, a 257 WBY and a new Bob to try on deer and pigs this fall.

Me neither. The third biggest buck I've killed was taken quartering away with a .222 Remington shooting the old Nosler solid base bullet. Bullet hit at rear of rib cage on the left side and recovered from left shoulder. He dropped instantly.

A man needs to know his limits and work within them.

Some people are competent running game shooters, while most are not. The best running game shooter who I've met was an old coyote hunter who lived near Chester, NE. Old Tom was also the best goose/duck hunter who I've met, he could shoot incoming geese/ducks like a radar guided Phalanx CIWS shoots down incoming enemy threats. He attributed his running/flying game shooting skills to the tens of thousands of Blue Rocks that he shot during his lifetime. His deer hunting rifle of choice was an old Remington 700 ADL in 7MM RM with an equally old Weaver K4 and his mantra was that if you don't maintain your swing then you won't hit a thing do wop do wop.

Some people are competent long-range shooters, while most are not. My mechanic is a good long-range shooter and is fully capable of killing animals at 700 + yards under the right conditions. He has top shelf gear and he regularly practices on the local 600 yard range. The last rifle that he showed me was a custom Remington 700 in 300 WM with a SWFA 10x40.

I know my limits and mostly work within them. I have tagged moving game and I have tagged game out to around 500 +/- yards. While I prefer to pick my shots, I do like big racks and that has prompted me to exceeded my comfort zone a time or 2. The buck with the 2nd biggest rack that I've tagged was in tight creek bottom cover with his nose on the tail of a hot doe. He was so focused on that doe that he trotted past me at a range under 100 yards and when he presented a moving shot through an opening in that cover I took the shot. He never knew I was there, or if he did he didn't care enough to leave that doe, so I shot him. The rifle was a then new Remington 7 in 260 with a 120 grain BT in 11/97. The empty case is currently sitting on one of his brow tines.

You’re making a pretty bad case for yourself. Throwing around false absolutes like they’re common knowledge and making excuses for your poor judgment. Then making crude attempts at insulting remarks. And so far facts have done nothing to dissuade your inaccurate comments. There are quite a few people here that know a hell of a lot more about shooting than I do, let alone you. You would be well served to let your brain act as a sponge rather than a rock. Done with rebuttals. No need to hijack a thread with petty arguments.

Thank you for your extended comment MD. I’ve seen these clarifications in a number of your articles but don’t recall a single article dedicated to misconceptions based on old knowledge. Perhaps an educational address is in order. By the way, I have absolutely no idea what constitutes a sufficient brown bear cartridge these days.

You need to check your math. The percentage difference in diameter between a .22 CF bullet (.223") and a .270 bullet (.277") is only 24%, not 52%. (.227-.223 divided by .223 = 24.2%)

Are we comparing diameter or area for the hole size?

The math is correct. The formula for the hole size is pi x square of the radius

You were so adamant that your views were correct yet you don't know what constitutes a suitable bear cartridge.

A hole through the airbags is a hole through the airbags, IMO.

Give me something north of 3000 fps, preferably something 3400 or more with a 22 caliber and stuff dies rather quickly.

Especially with a 55 grain Sierra Gameking. The 60 grain Nosler Partition is about as fast killing. This in cartridges from 223 to 220 Swift.

Same with every step up in caliber but once you get over about .264 combined with 3000+ fps it gets pretty rough on deer sized game.

As said before, you're referring to diameter differences (which I think you got wrong too, on a few points). He was talking about surface area of the front plane of the bullets.

What does that have to do with what I said. Being a BR champion means very little in regards to bullet performance and I’d put any TTSX, PT up against the old 105 Speer all day long.

The bullets that were used is directly relevant to what was being said. The fact that he was National Benchrest champion is an indicator that he was probably a good shot on game as well, but it is not conclusive. However, others at the time who hunted with Page have independently verified what an excellent shot he was on game. That being the case, what I said about there goes the argument that you just need good bullet placement is supported.

Barnes VOR-TX 55 gr. TSX from an 18.5"/1:9 Bbl'ed 580 Series Mini-14 Ranch:

MV: ~ 2995 fps/1100 ft-lbs.
Zero: 200 yds. (+2.3" at 100 yds.)

250 yd: ~ 1970 fps/475 ft-lbs.
Drop: ~ 3.8"




GR

Fair enough. Still not a [bleep] bit of difference when each the bullets mentioned go through things vital for life of the animal.

I won't disagree with that at all.

Guys,

Regarding the diameter of bullets, one thing that is mathematically certain is, the increasing
diameter and increasing WEIGHT result in increasing ENERGY, that the targeted animal is
subjected to. Limit the variables to two points, bullet diameter and bullet weight, each increas-
ing. All else keep constant for comparison. (B.C., velocity at impact, etc.) For example, say
you have 10 different diameter bullets, all by the same company, all made the same way, and
they expand in the animals' bodies. Say you could shoot 10 of the same sized deer in the same
spot, ten bullet tests on ten animals. And say all ten bullets went all the way through the animals,
BUT DID NOT EXIT, but actually stopped just inside the skin on the off side, causing a visible
BULGE. That means that the full available energy was used to damage that deer! In general,
the bigger the diameter, the more it weighs, the greater the Trauma caused by ENERGY, that
the animal's bone and tissue is damaged with. It is this ENERGY that causes ever increasing
damage to more and more tissue, that's farther from the bullet path. The d a r n hole being
.223 or .243 or .308 or .358 or .375 of an INCH is not the issue. Look at the charts to see the
huge differences in ENERGY that the different size bullets have at 100 yards out!

Gotcha. I agree with that. But mostly, I hunt with what I want and mostly make good choices.

A good one that’ll change a lot of folks mind is the 77 TMK in a 22-250 or 223 on deer. If you can tell it apart from a 280 or even my 7 Mashburn Super you’re definitely better than I.

[/quote]
A hole through the airbags is a hole through the airbags, IMO.

Give me something north of 3000 fps, preferably something 3400 or more with a 22 caliber and stuff dies rather quickly.

Especially with a 55 grain Sierra Gameking. The 60 grain Nosler Partition is about as fast killing. This in cartridges from 223 to 220 Swift.

Same with every step up in caliber but once you get over about .264 combined with 3000+ fps it gets pretty rough on deer sized game.[/quote]

I agree with this except I believe anything over .257 gets rough on deer sized game. Especially here in Texas. Our deer are small. When I use my 25-06 for a shoulder shot on deer, you might as well throw the front quarters to the dogs because that 25-06 tears up too much meat. I’ve been using a 220 Swift with that 60 grain Nosler partition and it does a fine job on our little deer.

I just finished reading "how to bag the biggest buck of your life" by Larry Benoit. Larry
advocates for shooting into the ribcage, and not into the shoulder. And he's a guy
that shot BIG bucks, 200-250 pounders. He wrote that he does not want to destroy
meat unnecessarily. He says shooting into the rib cage works perfectly effectively,
while preserving great shoulder meat.

Very true, but sometimes local conditions dictate that a buck be dropped "right there" and even a 30 or 40 yard death run can be problematic.

Years ago, I built a 250-3000 for my three sons on a Win 70 Compact action, they killed upwards of ten deer with that rifle, typically 100 yards or less, all one shot kills with Rem factory 100 PSP ammo. I could not be more impressed the 250-3000 for killing deer and easy on the shooter too. What I consider an ideal "young hunters" deer cartridge.

The Benoits and Berniers were snow trackers, so a blood trail was much easier to follow. The were also pump gun shooters, so they probably kept shooting as long as the deer was in sight and there were cartridges in the magazine of their Remington 760/7600s.

Bright red blood on white snow is easy to follow.

I'm not young or small anymore, but I do love my 700 Classic in 250-3000.

This is exactly the same argument that Jack O'Connor used when recommending a .270 with 130 grain bullets through the ribcage, as opposed to those such as Elmer Keith who recommended a bigger and heavier caliber through the shoulders. The counter argument to O'Connor was that they run more when shot behind the shoulder and you might not find them, and that you can't often get that 'behind the shoulder" shot in thicker cover such as in Idaho where Keith did much of his hunting (usually for bigger game on average), as opposed to the desert areas such as in Arizona and Sonora where O'Connor did much of his hunting in the early days.

IF you like chasing wounded animals shoot them with small calibers. Plenty of asshats do.

Yet more internet gold!

Nice hat in your avatar....

I enjoyed that myself and admire the heck out of the way they (Benoits) go about things.
But folks need to read betwixed the lines when it comes to tracking and putting down bucks and the "wait for the front leg to move forward or the animal to turn perfectly broadside" crowd would surely take serious offense.

You aren’t kidding. I know some folks will get wadded up but if you can get them leaking on snow they’re usually recoverable.

The use 30-06’s and 270’s cause that’s what they have found the most of in Rem 7600’s.

+1. They are legendary in the Northern New England Woods. I've read that book many times, and others by and about them.

I'm sure people will always take offense to something. A lot of people base what they believe off of their experiences. I prefer to shoot broadside and break both shoulders due to the fact that I've seen whitetail deer do some amazing things when shot. I helped my father in law track a deer for 200 yards one time that was shot behind the shoulder with a 308. I gutted the deer and it had no heart or lungs. That's why I like to break at least one of the front legs if not both.

Never chase a wounded animal that i personally shot with anything bigger than a .223, just sayin partner

"My three sons.... sorry I could not resist
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053525/

charlee

I have a good buddy who lives in Billings...

I got to meet one of his local friends, whose Grandma was with him one morning when we had breakfast together. She was Indian and lived on one of those reservations up around where Sam Olsen from the campfire lives.. NE Montana...

old gal was 4 ft 10 inches tall ( or short)... lives on the Rez and pretty much most of the meet she has ever eaten, was game animals.. she can shoot them year round on the Rez evidently.... she has owned one game rifle here entire life.... a 22.250 Remington...

Her favorite game meat is elk.... she pretty takes one, out in the yard when they are grazing or into the hay....when the freezer is getting low...
factory 55 grain ammo...uses a window sill for a rest.... pulls the trigger and calls one of her grandkids to come over and gut it for her... and then have it taken to where ever they process it....

she does take deer and antelope also.. but prefers elk meat the most...

no one ever told her that a 22.250 won't work on elk.. she just shoots them from the house within a 100 to 150 yds or so.. and gets on the telephone to let the grandkids come over to take care of the rest...she figured long ago about bullet placement and where that would be on an elk evidently....

she is not guilty of having plenty of them walk off wounded....

people who are rural and don't listen to, or read what 'experts' say all the time... seem to do pretty darn okay out there....

My step grandmother in WVa use to shoot deer out the window of her place when she needed more venison, she just asked her son Benny to bring over his 22.250 for her to borrow...she could shoot that...

Benny had his wife Gloria's family up every year from Florida to hunt in WVa in deer season.... Benny tells of the one season they all skunked... on the last day of open season, they come home all pissed off from skunking. She tells them there is a dead buck on the opposite end of their property, under the apple tree.... its across 5 acres worth of field from the house... they send one of his nephews up to the apple tree, which is uphill from the house...not believing Gloria...

the kid comes back with his pants on fire, with there is a dead deer up there under the tree...

Benny asked her what the hell did she shoot it with.... the only gun you left in the house.. that one over there... the 22.250...

shot it off the window sill.... when asked where she shot it at... her response, was you told me that this gun wasn't that good for a deer so I shot it in the head, where you said it would quickly kill it... I aimed at the eyeball.... they got up there and it had been hit in the eyeball....

other than that, a 22.250 would never kill a deer either.. just blind luck.. everyone knows that...
see what I did there with the blind luck comment?

You can tell who has used a modern 22 caliber bullet on deer and who hasn't. Those that have know that they work and work well.

Anyone in the northern woods found with a 223 chasing a 300 lb mature buck would be in for a rough time. Louisiana maybe not.

I once worked with a guy who lived in a remote part of the county. We were talking about the upcoming deer season, and he said the season was open all year for him, because whenever he wanted meat, he killed a deer. I asked him what rifle he used, and he said a 22LR. He went on to tell me that every now and then he lost one that he'd shot, but for the most part the 22 did the job.

I told him that I didn't care what he did on his land, but that he should get him a bigger rifle, one that would kill better. He soon quit working with me and went to farming full time, and I didn't see him for several years. The next time I did, he told me that he took my advice and bought a bigger rifle, and that it did kill better. I was expecting him to say that he'd got a 30-30, 243, 30-06, something along those lines, but the "bigger" rifle he was now using was a 22 Magnum.

And that just plain says what 12 pages of posts didn't.

Thanks!

Shoot some deer with a 6mm creedmoor and a 88gr hammer hunter leaving the muzzle at 3300 fps and I promise you won’t feel under gunned.

I’ve killed ~200 deer with everything from a 300 wsm and smaller and the 6CM and hammer hunter combo has been the most impressive thus far.

I think this can’t be overstated.

Answering the OP’s main question, the 243 and 22/250 just plain work, and they’re fun to shoot. After you’ve processed truckloads of deer that you and your friends have killed with them, that realization settles in, and the ancient dogma quickly fades.

You've obviously never hunted the big northern woods.

After the OP asked why those of us who use 243 and smaller centerfire for deer prefer to do so, and reading replies by those who haven’t used them, I’d say the average male’s head has gotten softer too. Reading comprehension is a must.

No offense intended to anyone.

What kind of hunting is this paint? Out of stands like so much deer hunting in Texas?

Some stand hunting, mostly still hunting swamps and cut overs around the Big Sandy river bottoms. Some so thick it’s hard to see very far. Also hunt the mountains in the Cherokee National Forest.

What stand hunting I do is mainly thick woods. So, a mix of a lot of terrain.

If a bullet will blow a 2-3” wound channel through a deer and exit does it really matter what diameter it starts out at?

Sure haven’t. Why would I?

Because while.it sounds similar.to where you bunt no serious big woods hunter chases deer with a 22 or even a 243. For jump shooting and running shots those calibers are not as effective as larger rounds.

Does a person need to hunt the big northern woods to know if a .243 and whatever bullet you’re comfortable with is adequate for 300 ish pound deer in thick cover?

Or any of the old school 55 grain SP bullets.

We are talking about something that might go 250-300# on the big end.

Not exactly large critters.

I hear what you’re saying, but the OP’s main question was why do those of us who use 243 and smaller centerfire choose to do so. Not why we wouldn’t use them.

Heck, I’m a lever action guy first and foremost. Always will be, but I also enjoy others, especially when they work when used responsibly, like any center fire should.

I don't know if it's considered "big woods" - the place I hunt is 8.8 million acres of forest or about 84% of the over all land mass but plenty of guys are shooting deer over 200 lbs with 22 CF and 243's.

Odd - a 223 will kill a 250lb, drug addled man in tactical gear but it won't kill a deer? I guess you learn something new every day.

There it is.

I'm not jump shooting 300 pound bucks in the style of get hair under the sights, pull trigger and let the chips (bullets?) fall where they may.

If I can visualize a line from the muzzle of my rifle through the heart of the deer without said line intersecting things aft of the lungs on the way in, then I'm good to go. For members of my circle a 243 shooting 95 grain Ballistic Tips or SSTs has proven entirely up to the task. From what I've seen on pigs I have no doubt the 90 grain Interbonds and 95 grain Partitions would also do the number on deer.

I’ve shot one doe with a 22-250. It was about 20 feet away. The 22-250 was what I had. The shot was between the eyes and it killed the deer. I know a guy who used a 222 Savage all his life for deer and was successful.
If I am going on a trip to hunt deer, I would not take any thing smaller than a 243/6mm.
But that’s my preference. The only cartridge that didn’t work well for me was a 30-06 using a 165 grain bullet. The bullet was stopped by the doe’s shoulder. The bullet never entered the rib cage. I switched to a better manufacturer’s bullets and they never failed. Lately I use anything from 24 to 35+ caliber and have not had a bullet failure since that 165 grain failure.
My opinion is using a cartridge/bullet/rifle that I’m sure will work is what I use. I’m not going to chance a poor combination again.

For me a rifle that has more recoil than a 375 won’t be carried for deer unless I just have to try it.

Interesting, thanks!

I suppose one could find out!

One thing I can’t help but notice is this. Most of the people who are using a 243 shoot kill put up and eat a lot of deer. Year after year. We know our equipment works fine for what we will be doing because WE DO IT.

Then we have another group who keep going on about all this hypothetical stuff. What if it’s a bad angle what if it’s running what if it’s thick cover what if it weighs 300 pounds. lol.

Serious question. How many of you normally shoot(or ever) 300 pound deer running in a thicket at bad angles?

For the most part you have people who do stuff and people who talk about doing stuff. Most people do more talking about it and thinking about it than doing it. Maybe that’s why all the worst case scenario stuff keeps coming up? What do y’all do when your alarm doesn’t go off? What do you do if your truck doesn’t start or have a flat? What if a tree fell across the road. You can what if all day long. Meanwhile the world is full of people who go out and make meat with 243’s and the like.

I shot a running away buck in the woods. Not bragging about the bullet placement. The bullet hit the major bone in the hip and traveled up to the shoulder. It expanded to twice the caliber.
30-06 & 180 grain Hornady bullets. Try that with your 223.

My opening post asked two questions essentially.
(1) Do you who use .243 and smaller rounds to deer hunt, choose NOT to shoot at certain shot presentations,
that you would have shot had you been using a larger and more powerful round?
(2) Do you choose to hunt with .243 and smaller ammo to intentionally challenge yourselves more, as Peterson
of the publishing empire did, when he hunted ducks with a .410 shotgun? Peterson stated that it was harder to
get the ducks to come in close enough, to make the .410 effective, and he wanted that extra challenge.

Kaleb have you ever seen one of these giant northern whitetail bucks in the woods they inhabit? Until you do you simply cannot appreciate how difficult they are to hunt and often put down in their home territory.
To OP my daughter is learning to hunt with a 243. I am teaching her high percentage kill shot placement and am fully confident in the round and its ability. This year she will be.moving.up to a 7x57 not because of anything other than it's what we use a lot of and have a lot of reloading components of on hand. I find it easier.to have everyone on the same caliber.

Have you ever used a modern 22 caliber bullet, launched from anything from 223 on up in velocity, on deer?

I watched my wife shoot a quartering buck in the shoulder with a 223 and after breaking the shoulder the bullet traveled through one lung, the liver, assorted guts, and part of the hind quarter before coming to rest under the hide. He traveled less than 10 yards before he croaked. Is that good enough?

As people who’ve extensively used smaller calibers have said more than once in this very thread, good bullets available today make a much bigger gun out of small calibers.

They’re fun to shoot, they work well, I’m apt to shoot them more year round, my daughter and I can both use them, reloading them is waaaaayyyyy cheaper than my big bore lever actions, etc.

I don’t take butt shots, or intentionally fire through brush anymore, no matter what shoulder cannon I’m carrying. Everybody’s priorities are different though.

Give me a ttsx and I will make it happen.

[BigFiveJack]


No, I take the same shots no matter.

I shoot em like I did with the 30-06, 270 and so on.

We grew up around 223 and 22-250, 243 and 6mm being used as dual purpose rounds for coyotes in front of hounds and the old timers used em on their deer as well.

Never saw any issues and that's why I still rely on a 6mm for 99% of my deer hunting.

1) I do not choose to skip certain shots with a 223. I'd make the same shot with it as I would if I were carrying a 340 Weatherby.

2) It has nothing about challenge. A 223 works as well as anything I've ever used. Good enough is good enough. I do shoot a 223 far more than a do a big cartridge through the year, by a factor of 1000. It's cheaper and it doesn't hurt. None of this is difficult to comprehend.

What does shooting deer have to do with Africa?

So because you made a bad shot that worked with your o6 you’re wanting to argue a 223 would not have worked? I’m really not understanding the thought process behind the big gun guys.

This one time when we were kids my brother was aiming behind the shoulder with his 270. He actually hit the deer in the head. The deer collapsed.

Again everyone that is nay saying is all hypothetical while everyone else is killing deer.


For the 300 pound deer killers up in the north east or where ever. How many deer do you kill and process each year ? If you think that doesn’t matter then you just proved another point.

Sorry to quote you twice, bluefish, but it may shock some northern hunters to know that Tennessee was stocked with northern strain deer back in the 1940’s-1980’s. My friends and I bag a 200+pound dressed buck about every other year, with most mature bucks that we get dressing ( not live weight ) 165-180#. Again, dressed weight.

I’m sure the biggest northern bucks on average are heavier, but southern States can surprise you.

And......quite a few of my group’s bucks are killed with .243’s and the occasional 22/250, and in big woods, much to their chagrin. We’re serious hunters too.

No doubt about anything you've said. Just nobody up here shoots little guns at big deer whether they may work or not. YMMV.

My wife shot a deer with our 22-250AI and a 62 gr tsx. When I got to her I asked where the deer went? She kept saying right there. I was being smart and kept asking yea but which way did he run? She said if you’d listen the deer was and is right there. Went through both front shoulders.

I’m still thinking that two conversations are going on. The people that are killing stuff and the other guys who kill less than 4 deer/animals a year and want to tell everyone else about killing. I wonder if they also send their knives back in for sharpening too….grin.

Most of the people in Maine don't vote for Republican presidents, so what is your point?

Now we're measuring dicks Kaleb by how many deer are killed each season? Well, how about it stud? How many did you put on the pole last year? Probably more than the 4 I killed. At the end of the day there's hunting deer and then there's hunting mature trophy bucks. You rebs stick to the 22s and we'll stick to what we like. Can we now get back to Kumbaya? And zip your pants back up Kaleb.

What the fugg are you on about and how would you know who we vote for? You think Portland represents the rest.of us be cause they are a larger voting block? Idiot. Stay in the Commonwealth.

So screwing one fat chick in 10 years makes you a playboy. No wonder you boys voted in Obama and Biden.

Thank you

Whatever you say playboy.

I'm looking forward to more pearls of wisdom from someone about something they have never done.

The point isn’t how many deer are killed but that people who kill a small amount of deer with a lot amount of free time come up with all of the conclusions. Change the subject to dicks if that’s you’re thing but I know what we do and what works. You can keep your hypothetical deer and the penis conversation you brought up

Is this Steelheads latest incarnation?

Not sure why someone from VA would bring up presidential politics. Biden carried VA, as did Obama twice. Alas, being from MI, I also don't have much reason to cast the first stone.

+1

It's never not funny.

Jon_in_VA,

How big of a sample size are we talking of VA deer have you killed with a .223? Treestand ranges or open fields?

Jon_in_VA is actually Scott_in_TN.

Had me curious as I lived in VA of and on for the last 20 years and of the 100+ deer I killed there, none were with a .223. Mostly because that is illegal. There is a .24 caliber minimum in that state.

Not to say it would not work or I would not have used it if legal but I stuck with a .243W. Most all the deer I killed there were within 50 yards, save a few hay or bean field encounters.

He's not from VA, he's from NJ. Er, whoops I mean TN

And Scott_in_TN is actually Steelhead

Guy gets around. Maybe he’s Porta-Jon.

He pretends to be the ultimate Dixie Rebel but he's really from NJ which makes him a "Damn Yankee"

I was just talking with an old Marine buddy and remembered this one.

He has a 6mm Rem and it was his only rifle back when he got out. Used 55 BTs for coyotes and 100 Partitions for deer. Well, I think life and work got in the way before he was able to load more or rezero his rifle before hunting season.

Anyhow, he shot this buck at 258 yards with the 55 Ballistic Tips. Put it right in the slats. Said the old boy did a semi circle and flopped dead to Croakville







I believe this buck was Idahos big buck of the year around 2011. Don’t hold me to it.

I had similar results using the 55 BT in a 22-250 but never on a record buck but they all died handily, when punched in the ribs.

I remember that buck Scotty, hellava buck. You and other know I’ve killed some damn big bucks with the 6ai and 80 bt’s, 22 cm and 75’s have killed a couple gooduns for me too. The 55 bt’s outta the 243/6mm are hammers!!

I think this is all horseshit mostly. Bad stuff happens with a 224 or a 340. Kaleb nailed it, a bad shot is a bad shot. No amount of firepower will alter it much.

Our own Dober and a few other Montanan’s have wheeled a whole lot of bucks and bulls home with 22-250’s and 220 Swifts with plain old Sierra, Hornady and similar bullets.

I find it crazy to say they are marginal when they work so well.

Hell, someone mentioned it a few weeks ago, but the Jordan buck was smoked with a 25-20 I believe.

Any bullet that will go inside, blow sh't up inside' and go out the other side (every time), is as good as it gets.

Anything else I inferior.

That 22-250 Ackley with the 62 TTSX is a beast isn’t it Kaleb? Jeeze. Folks jaws would drop if they’d see more of the carnage first hand.

I bet you look forward to getting a pearl necklace too sock puppet.

Bennett Hills tag?

Ted, I don’t remember, wasn’t far from Kuna. I’ll ask him which it was. I know it was a draw that he was shocked to draw the first time putting in.

I smoked this old roe deer buck the other day via .22-250 and some no name soft point spitzer bullet at 130 yards.
About the size of a doe antelope so it wasn't much of a test and sure as hell wasn't a 300 pound whitetail, but I may as well of hit it with a .300 WBY the way it went down.

Ahhhh....Probably Unit 40 then. I know of several great bucks that have come off that desert south and west of Kuna. A good college friend has a huge ranch out there that I have free reign on.

Way cool. Amazing what we get done without consulting the Campfire huh?

And a Leupold too. You stacked the deck so far against you, it’s lucky you lived through the day

And man, Unit 40 sounds right. I know I was red with envy for my buddy though. A great Marine and a gift to take a buck like that.

What does political affiliation have to do with how people hunt, what sorts of firearms they use, or what caliber those firearms are chambered for?

Beautiful buck! Where were you hunting? Details man details.

Yes it was a 25-20 but it doesn't help your point because it took around 13 shots

I was gonna mention that. IIRC, it was quite a rodeo once the shooting started. Still a neat story to read.

These threads grow old. So, the 243 and the 22 whatever are deer slayers of the highest order. There. I'll keep shooting the 7x57 because it politely kills deer and the 9.3x62 because it also kills deer a little more politely and I like eating up to the bullet holes. Some of.you ought to venture north some time with your rifle, your compass, your map, and your wits and see.how.you fare. Everyone is invited! We have lots of room.

Tinman..I think you are just having too much fun globetrotting and living the life!

And yes, I'm jealous cause I'm too old for that stuff anymore!

I've said this many times, I really don't care what someone uses to shoot a deer with, just as long as they do so in a humane manner. The thing that gives the smaller calibers a bad rap is hunters either using a bullet that's not designed to be used for hunting, or the inability to put a bullet in the right spot..........and believe me, there are a lot of hunters who cannot do that, and that applies to all calibers, not just the smaller ones.

Well put.

You never answered my question in our previous discussion.

Why would I venture “up Nort” to hunt deer? Is it so I, as a lesser hunter, can learn the proper way to do things? You seem to consider “big woods hunting” as the pinnacle of deer hunting, and wear it as a badge of honor.

Again, tell me why I should leave a place that has good deer density, plenty of mature bucks, plenty of “big woods”, and nice weather to jump shoot deer up there?

“Up Nort” in your big woods would be dead last on my list of places to venture to deer hunt. Mainly because I obviously lack your superior skills and intellect.

Please, feel free to answer my question as to what I’d have to gain? Maybe I can learn something here.

If you venture a little further north where the deer are a little bigger yet, you’ll find a lot of hunters using the .243, even in the thick woods. With the right bullet, even at non-ideal angles it’ll drive through a lot of bone and tissue and put deer down authoritatively. It’s even been used successfully on elk, moose, and bear a time or two.

Of course, the 7x57 and 9.3x62 work well. But so do some smaller chamberings.

I’ve had a 243 since I was about 5 or 6 years old but I know if I was to moose hunt my 30-06 or something similar is a better tool. Also I have a 1/2 ton truck but I know if I were to get into logging that a log truck is a better tool for hauling logs. Can I kill a moose with my 243? Sure I could but that still doesn’t make it the best took for the job.
I don’t know why that’s such a hard concept for a lot of hunters to grasp. It’s common sense or at least it should be.
I’ve never hunted moose or elk but I wouldn’t be afraid to shoot one with my 243 and an accubond or similar bullet. We have to draw the line somewhere otherwise we would all be using 17 Remingtons for everything.

Interesting to me how it seems, IME, that the traveling hunter or guys who don’t have large limits or long seasons seem predisposed towards larger calibers.

I’ve read on the fire of guys who keep a big rifle in case they draw a bear tag occasionally. Or guys buying a bigger gun or working up a heavier bullet load before going down south on a pig hunt.

Yet here in pig country I, as well as friends and neighbors kill tons of pigs with 223s and 22-250s. When I lived in Alaska black bears were regarded as light game and I often heard the 243 recommended for them, I also saw a bunch of them killed with 243s. Same with moose, multiple times I saw parents and grandparents buy kids a 243 followed by the kids killing big bulls with their new rifles. Many times I saw pictures and visited with bush Alaskans who routinely killed all three species of bears as well as incredible amounts of caribou with 222,223, and 22-250s.

I’ve used a couple dozen different rifle cartridges from 17rem to 458WM on game from deer on up. I’ve never made a poor shot and thought, darn if only I’d used a bigger rifle, and I have made some poor shots through the years. I’ve also never made a good shot when using good bullets and thought a bigger cartridge would have done any better, though there have been instances where a better bullet than the one I was using would have done a better job.

You shouldn't. There are those of us that have the North woods in our blood. Nothing else feels right to us. But deer are few and far between. 2-5 deer per square mile is the norm and you can go days in between sightings. So for anyone that doesn't have a fascination with the North Woods I wouldn't recommend it to them. They probably wouldn't enjoy themselves

UK.
I really don’t have any more details than that.

Not saying you should. I don't necessarily consider hunting the big woods the pinnacle of deer hunting. Nor did I suggest my skills were superior. In fact, I consider my skills to be ever evoloving as I am sure many do. I happen to think tracking mature northern whitetail bucks to be pretty darned hard and, given the territory where it is done, think bigger rifles work well. It's not everyone's cup of tea but once a guy tracks a big buck in snow deer hunting never quite seems the same. So, not sure I answered the question or not but as to why you should head up north I guess is because it stakes all of ones accumulated bushcraft against one of the smartest creatures in the woods.

What state, or what area of what state?

That is right in many parts of Maine and may even be high in some years.

I don’t know why, but it sure makes me giggle when I hear someone from the Lower 48 talk about “Big Woods”.

Now I’m not a scientist like Jordan, but I DO live a little bit farther North and the deer here are arguably a tiny bit bigger, tougher, and meaner.
And I regularly hunt deer with a 223 in the timber (and the fields, and the valleys, you get the picture). And if I need to reach waaaay out, I’ll step it up to a 243 for a little extra whumpitude.

And unlike Michigan, my AO has the very real likelihood of bumping a grizzly at an inopportune moment.

As to the OP’s 2 questions, I don’t start worrying about shot angles with an appropriate bullet from a 223 until I’m past 400-ish yards, and I don’t worry about the angles with a 243 and a good bullet within my range limits at all. I’ve killed and necropsy’d enough deer (and bears and moose, and elk) to see what different bullets do from different cartridges, to know that cartridges are way more similar in terminal effects than they are different when using appropriate bullets.

As to the WHY I use a little gun in Big Woods (or open fields, or big valleys, or Little Woods even), is because they are wonderfully effective, and create as much damage as is required to kill deer.

At some point it needs to be recognized that good enough is good enough.
Pretty sure the words “Good bullets in good places do good things” and “bullets matter more than headstamps” are as accurate now as they ever have been.

I'd hunt em with a suppressed 22LR if legal.

I've easily killed out to almost 600 with 223. Its not hard to kill a deer. Carry them because they are a joy to shoot vs a bigger thumper and no need.

Yes when things matter I'd carry bigger, but things often don't matter much anymore. Of course if I paid 30K to shoot a buck I'd have a pretty decent size rifle capable fo south to north plus penetration at a pretty fair distance so I would not have to turn down any shot offered if no better shot was going to happen.

Pleasure to shoot smaller rounds. And exactly how much do you need? We regularly kill deer every year with 10mm and 9mm handguns out to 50 plus yards irons and dots. And I can't even guess how many pigs I've shot with a 22 LR handgun over the years. Over 100 for sure

The quality of the bullets these days makes it all possible. As long as the nut behind the butt isn't loose its all good.

Thank you for your well thought out response, sincerely.

But in reference to the OP’s questions, how many deer have you killed with a 243 and smaller centerfire? If the answer is none, why make any comments at all? Again, meaning no insult.

Thank you Mike. I understand fully. I feel similarly about the Cherokee National Forest that a buddy and I hunt. Low density, hunt for days and not see anything but bears, but the possibility exists to kill a giant.

But I’d still not be afraid to use my .243, which I’ve done.

I killed a red deer hind once with a suppressed .22 LR from 75-80 yards. One to the broadside lungs tight behind the shoulder. No exit. It did run about 50 or so yards with zero blood trail before dying, but I have seen that happen with more acceptable rounds too on occasion.

From the big Woods of Northern PA to Northern NY, VT, NH, to the tip of Maine

And "America's Hat" shows up to imply that there's is the only place with Big Woods

It’s a nice buck and definitely a hunt I want to do.

PM me if you’d like. I also killed 3 muntjac and 3 water deer. I can get you the contact info of the outfitter and some more info if you’d like. It was an awesome hunt and I have nothing but good things to say about the operation.

With a 243? Exactly none. However, my experience with the 270 and with fast loaded 7x57s is that they can create lots of bloodshot meat and ruined front quarters when bone is struck. I dont like that so we load the 7x57 down and I also like my 9.3 at about 2400 fps. I have all the range I need with a scope and no more bloodshot meat. Guess it's a preference huh? For us here the big woods are vast tracts of land to the west and north where there are very few people and lots of land. The harsh winter means only the biggest and strongest get by. Some people think the Eastern timberwolf is here but I think they are just big coyotes. See a lot around 60 pounds. The only feed is what they find in the woods versus Ag so they are not corn fed. I think this can also inform antler growth. Hardly anyone here asks about antlers. It's all about bodyweight. Maine state record on certified scale is 365 dressed which has stood since 1955. The 06 is still the top dog but lots like 45 70s and 35 calibers. Some.trackers like the Whelen in the Remington pumps and semis. The 35 Remington and the 358 are also seen often as are 50 call MZs.

Ted, I'm gonna PM you about this. It might be 2 or 3 years until I'm able but I'm really interested in a hunt like that.

Pretty sure you are a fan of the 75 amax in the 223

If you are hunting where you expect closer shots or in thick cover do you swap them out for something stouter and try to break bones?

Thanks

75 Amax and crush shoulders.
I’ve used (or had the kids and assorted gf’s use) the 45 tsx, 50 ttsx, 53 tsx, and 62 ttsx and 50 gmx’s, and seen some pretty impressive wound channels. One year 3 kids and a gf each shot a whitetail buck at the exact same range, exact same presentation and similar size. Kids used 50 gmx’s, and the gf used a 7/08 with a 139 sst. Crush onside shoulder quartering in, one buck caught a 50 just behind the last rib, and the other 2 exited in the same place. The 7/08 was caught in front of the diaphragm. Could tell any real difference in wound channel or damage.

The 75’s though…. Those crush shoulders and dig deep from 12 yards through past 400 for me.
Last fall, last 10 minutes of the last day I smoked both fronts with a 75 Amax at 80 yards. No muss, no fuss, 50 yard death wobble. Love ‘em.

Good to know. Thanks

I've shot tight behind the shoulder with them on deer and bear and been impressed. Hit a few high shoulder to put them down quicker but the distance has always been far enough to slow the bullets down some.

Glad to hear they a can stand up to busting shoulders at less than 100 yards too, alway been nervous to try it.

Naw, not much to worry about there.

Square broadside at 300+ you start to catch them under the hide on the far side, but the deer don’t go very far…. And to be honest, I’m happier breaking the offside shoulder every time. If I have to go through the onside to get there I don’t sweat it. And obviously if they are quartered in, I’m not aiming for the offside.

No problem. I'd be glad to tell you all about it.

The problem with hunting with smaller caliber rifles is, the ding-a-ling loading and shooting the gun. You can't shoot a deer in the shoulder with a varmint bullet and expect good results. Common sense isn't very common anymore, or maybe it's just the little dick syndrome.

Same group of stupid people ruining everything for the rest of us. Hunting, voting, mask wearing, doesn't matter.

“Ruining it for the rest of us”…Do you mean people shooting “inadequate” calibers, or certain people thinking everyone else needs to do things their way?

I was wondering the same thing myself.

I have the same question for you as in my response to mjbgalt above. Is common sense not common anymore because people may shoot deer with bullets considered inadequate or is common sense lacking because some push their opinions onto others who have had consistent success breaking shoulders with those “inadequate” bullets?

There is always more than one way to look at these things.

That is the democrat mantra for most things. Legislate to the lowest common denominator is a bad approach.

That’s exactly right. Also I still haven’t heard of people that use them having trouble. It’s those that don’t that make such a big deal about it. It’s kinda like politics if you think about it. You have all the hard headed ones who haven’t done it saying what should be used and why they “think” that. Meanwhile people all over the world are just out here” doing” just fine with what we like.

Yes sir

No way! You mean you just become proficient with said rifles and go do your thing and forget the WWW says it’s not good enough….


Craziness.

I mean, in any group there will be people fugging it up for everyone else, like shooting deer with varmint bullets or wounding deer and blaming the 223 instead of their marksmanship.

I was responding to the post about people shooting bullets not made for the purpose, not the bore size.

Makes sense now.

My uncle is quite old now but he was an outlaw in our area back in the day. Nice fella, but he shot alot of deer with a 222 Rem and 222 Rem Mag. Pretty sure he loaded the 55 grain Hornady in both of them, but man he was pretty surgical with those rifles. As a kid reading gun magazines and other stuff I assumed my uncle was making up these kills cause the magazines all said you needed "such and such" to properly kill deer.. Turns out maybe most of them writers weren't too different than alot of other folks and never actually used said little cartridges to hunt.

[bluefish]
With a 243? Exactly none.


Again, thanks for the lengthy response. But your two sentences in this quote says it all.

Again.....the OP directed his questions at only those who choose to use 243 and smaller centerfire for deer, and why they do so, and if they pass shots because of it. He didn’t ask why anyone doesn’t like them, or where they hunt or how big their deer are, how tough the hunting is, all their nostalgic reasons for hunting, etc.

Or.....why they wouldn’t use them, hate them, despise them, or if they heard one time about how their brother’s sister’s uncle shot a big deer with a small caliber rifle one time and didn’t find it. Or, how one can deduce from how a .270 ruined meat that a .22 centerfire will too. Everybody knows a .270 is gay, and shouldn’t even be used under any circumstances.

My guess is that there will be plenty more threads directed specifically at those who hate small cartridges.

Well, you know hardly anyone on this site can keep an opinion to himself, including yours truly. I'm as guilty as the next guy for steering the thread off the rails. For that I apologize to you and the other forum members.

Well put.
To be fair, I used to be SOLIDLY in the “how dare you do that” category when it came to 22 centerfires. (And that even though I shot my first couple dozen black bears and 50+ deer and a moose as a kid with a 6mm Remington and never lost anything to any shot placement- ideal or not).
But low and behold I discovered the ‘Fire and saw multiple threads every year by Stick and Threadkiller and Ingwe and Steelhead with pictures of dead stuff and 223AI’s. So I bought one, and started stacking up heartbeats with it. And then bought another one, and added more heartbeats to that one. And building yet another one, for the same purpose, as a backup so I can send #2 in for a new barrel and not be without one in the truck.

No fuss, no muss, simply slap [bleep] dead. Easy to load for, cheap to shoot a lot, easy to carry, just easy, efficient, and effective.

The nice thing about those little rifles - they let you be surgical. They're handy so easy to get into position. Zero recoil so you're unlikely to flinch or err in the shot. Easy on scopes too - so mechanical issues are decreased. 222 is a cartridge known for accuracy (owned BR till the PPC came) - so there's the deal - you have a scalpel and used as such, very lethal.

I’ve got his Sako 222 Rem Mag. Full length stock, Lyman 6x Permacenter on it. For awhile I couldn’t find brass so I made some with 204 Ruger. Worked great. I’d like to update the scope but I can’t bring myself to.

I’ve got the same rifle sitting next to it in the safe in 222 Remington. Those little Sakos are gems.

Agreed Teal, use the tool the way it was meant and they do the work.

I wonder how many deer, elk, bear, etc got sent to the coolers from
The old 250 Savage? That thing used an 87 or 100 grain bullet at a pretty pedestrian speed compared to todays stuff. I mean other than 10 grains of bullet weight what is the difference between it and my 223 with 77 TMKs? Nobody ever whines about the old Savage being a weak sister.

I know BC is important...but...

The same guys who geek out over the 6arc's 100 grain bullet at 2700fps, tell us the 250 savage sucks, with it's 100 grain bullet at 2900 fps...

So...a hole in the lungs is a hole in the lungs.

I am sure at some point a projectile would be too small in diameter to do enough damage, but it's far down the list from .224"

I had a 77 bicentennial 250 for several years, ran 100 gr corloks in it, hellava buck rifle, killed a couple bear with it too. Still regret letting than one go

An old friend of mine in Alaska killed 8 bull caribou and nearly 20 wolves with his 17rem and the 25 grain Hornady. I assumed headshots and he said oh no you just shoot them through the lungs and they’ll stiffen up and fall over. I’ve killed some pretty good sized pigs with mine. Speed kills.

Yeah...and because of you I had to try it.....it worked so good on pigs I had to buy a second .17 Remington as a dedicated pig gun!


This one tipped the scale at a bit over #200

Hey man, I dig the ARC myself but I also have a little 250.. different uses.

That’s what I’ve got.

Very cool. Never had a 17 CF, but dang that looks like fun.

Mine is a coyote splat’n SOB but I have never tried to kill anything bigger with it, and probably won’t.

It is stupid accurate though with the 25 Horns with absolutely no recoil.

I likely won’t take it on a hunt for big game but I’ll continue to shoot pigs and other pests as they come.

In my buddies case, he carried it everyday in the winter to have something he could kill wolves with but not blow up foxes or lynx since he was selling hides. The caribou were opportunities when he or someone he knew needed meat and he came across them while making his rounds. Back in the 70s-80s when the Nelchina herd was big and the seasons and limits were liberal.

Bout like my 204 with 32’s, love it for cats and coyotes. Then you hear all the “run off” stories about the 17 rem and 204.. 🤦‍♂️😂

I meant to say I've never chased a wounded animal that I personally shot with a .223 or larger.

I'd submit that bullet lateral drift from wind is more of a challenge to get right than bullet drop rate, by far!
As I understand it, Ballistic Coefficient is ONLY pertinent to bullet lateral drift from wind.
And B/C has nothing to do with the drop rate of a bullet, and nothing to do with how well the bullet penetrates.

You may have a bit of a problem here, depending on what exactly you mean.

Maybe compare two of your favorites with Hornadys online Ballistic Calculator (its free and easy).. One of high BC and one of patched round ball variety at the same speed. I think it'll answer the questions.

My understanding is that gravity causes a bullet to drop at a fixed rate but that the fps and efficiency of the bullet may allow it to travel further in that same timeframe. Mathman no doubt has a better grasp on it than me.

Who does this? I think the 6 arc will be cool and have a case of ammo waiting for a gun but my wife shoots a 250AI with 100gr nbts and it works great. Have I just missed those discussions or is that another hypothetical debate? I can’t imagine someone making fun of shooting deer with a250 and 100’s. That’s a heck of a deer killing round.

For instance, big stick.

And yes it's a "for instance," but a lot of our arguments here are similar.

Lol….that’s kinda my point. He does that more for sport(if he actually has) than thinking a 6 arc kills better than a 250.

That comment is just as hypothetical as the 361 pound deer of a lifetime about to get away

BC has a lot to do with how fast a bullet drops vertically. It helps with wind too, for the same reason. Keeping its speed up for longer.

Again, that depends upon what we're actually talking about.

True. I could be totally misreading Big 5’s comment here.

223 bolt gun is as small of a caliber as I’ve ever used. My boy killed a deer broadside at about 40 yards with a 50grain GMX(DRT) and I head shot a doe at 108 yards with a 77 grain hollow point(don’t remember what bullet) and obviously DRT

It has a LOT to do with brains.

Gay talk out of the gate, no surprise.

You didn't hear that from your mom.

Traveling is a mystery for many.

Says the liberal from KY that voted for Biden.

You idiots find comfort with other idiots, right? I could be your sister's black boyfriend, but that doesn't make me wrong. You clowns are a hoot.

Has the gal from Maine told us more about what she hasn't done?

You're right she's been dead for years.

K, you’re batting a 1000…. I know a 250 Savage cannot keep up with my 6 ARC but hell I accept it for what it is. The fun part is shooting them all and knowing what they do.

That’s pretty much it.

Ladies,

It will only come as a "Surprise" to you gals,that bullets matter wayyyyyyyyyyy than fhuqking headstamps. You'll want to read that again. Now one more time. Hint.

Pardon Physics,as you Drool onto your bibs. The .257" 100 NBT and it's Litz G7 of .176 do thusly. Hint.




The 243 Grendel and a 108 at 2700fps ala 29.2grs of Lever' in Lapooey brass and a 20" spout do thusly(I've a few). Hint.




Now if/when talking like case capacity,the 22-250AI will scoot a .295 G7 90gr Beer Can at 3200fps from a modest length barrel. It do thusly. Hint.




If only because I shoot it all and then some,I prefer the 224 Speedmire to the 22-250AI,mainly because I've multiples of each. That being said,for Utility,I'm happier with a 224 Grendel and 88/90's(depends upon which rifle) and am happy to let BC do it's thang,at the "trade" for some initial muzzle velocity. The Seex Kreedmire is a Nasty Fhuqking Bitch and I've multiples of them as well,which will net a .310 G7 at 3000fps from a 21" spout. Hint.

I get it,that you gals don't get it,if only because you've never even "seen" it,let alone "done" it. Pardon wares that Exist and the Physics associated. Hint.

Yesterday morning 224 PPC AFI and now you gals can say you've "seen" one. Hint.





"Tell" me more. Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!...................

What a drooling window lickin butt ball. You are dumber than the people you call names. You get baited and come to the trap with your boogery eyes all aglow, trying to pounce on the opportunity to "enlighten"

What a clown, no one reads your charts and few even care that you post here.

The real story is how fast you come to the fire like a moth to the flame and then flame out making your same illiterate comebacks. You are a real maroon!

KchuntRun,

It's your Imagination,simply Pretend with it as you MUST,to "convince" yourself of those things you most need to hear...you "lucky" kchunt. Hint. Congratulations?!?

Pardon Physics,as you "shoot" your mouth and Imagination,via Brokedick Whine. Hint.



Admittedly,a fast twist 223 SALAMI,slaps a 250AI/100 NBT fhuqking silly. The 270 do it no favors either. Hint.



Fortunately for you,Imagination and Pretend are free,so even a Melting Snowflake can "afford" to "contribute" and Hissy a Fit. Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!..................

Tell us how Africa has anything to do with this again.

Above is the TRUE moron.

Don't be too hard on KchuntRun,if only because Imagination and Pretend is all that she "has". Hint.

Let her fixate headstamps she's never even fhuqking "seen",let alone "used" and concoct her HILARIOUS Delusions perpetually. Hint.

Few things fhuqking funnier,than Whining Brokedicktitude! Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!..................

You know she's Shrapnel

She's simply a Day Dreaming CLUELESS Drooling Fhuqktard,mired in her Brokedicktitude,no matter the nom de plume...the "lucky" kchunt. Hint.

I personaly don't own anything smaller than .172" bore size,as centerfires go,but have shot .14's and would. Hint.(grin)



It's never been difficult to determine who shoots and who don't. Hint. Fhuqking LAUGHING!

The snow curtailed Chrome,so I've (5) rifles to slam together this morning. A 223,Seex Kreed,243 Win,264 Kreedmire and a 7mm RemMag. Does it ever end?!? Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!.............

Now with 12" RPM and 2.325" COAL,I reckon a 2.285" Square Smooch .242 G1 Smooch ain't horrid. hint.




That means a 3500fps+ yield,which do Venison NO fhuqking "favors",within the limits of same(I like a 2000fps impact as minimum). Hint.

Just sayin'................

Have you been up near the murder hole in the last couple of years?

Never heard of it. Hint.




Fhuqking LAUGHING!..........

I understand the 6mm will beat out the 25. I just meant for killing at normal deer distance that it doesn’t and I just don’t believe Stick has ever made that argument with him. I think that he made that up just as much as the what if a huge deer was about to get away at last light on the property line in a thicket and the dollar store is almost out of cookies grin.

Yeah I never have specifically had that conversation with stick. It was just an example of how sometimes it seems we make this too difficult

Every deer I've shot with a .223 has been just as dead as those I've shot with a .300WM.

That’s what I’m talking about. This whole entire thread is that exact same thing. Nothing’s happened specifically but…..

No offense but seriously that’s been a his whole thread. People killing stuff will some guns and some people being afraid of what if this that and the other ………

“Boogery eyes.”

That’s funny as hell.



P

Fhuqksmeller,

I enjoy how Reality reliably escapes your senses...you "lucky" kchunt. Hint. Congratulations?!?

Fhuqking laughing!..............

I’ll bet he said something derogatory, didn’t he? Ignore precludes visibility.

Sorry buddy, I was trying to say I was in agreement, didn't come thru real well in what I wrote.

No no no we’re on the same page. As cool as the little 25’s are……when are the Howa mini 6 arcs hitting the shelves?….haha. Fingers crossed for the gentleman in Kentucky to pull a rabbit out of a hat.

Yeah, you’re not kidding. I’d probably sell the Howa 6 CM if I got the little 6 ARC. It’s a nice rifle and shoots well but it sits mostly. I got it to ride in my truck but the CTR took that place in the truck.

Those CTR’s are slick. I sorta made mine a faux ctr. I got some take off parts and put my standard barreled action in the ctr stock and bottom metal. No comparison between the ctr 223 magazine and t3 magazine. It normally rides in the truck but it and a few others are off getting chopped and threaded. I just haven’t made the time to pick them up.

I love that CTR honestly. It’s been easy as hell so far. I’ve actually not done anything to load special for it. I’m using the same crap of LVR and 77 TMKs I load for the ARs. It runs 2775FPS and has just been easy.

Took my brother out yesterday and dialed 2.7 mils and watched him giggle when he went 10 for 10 at a steel plate that’s around 8-10” at 500 in some decent breeze. He couldn’t get enough of it. I’d bet a dollar he’s in search of his own today.

Haha that’s awesome! I bet you’re right about him doing some looking today!

A short action Tikka CTR would be really handy. Makes no sense to build a short barrel, light weight rifle in a long action.

Maybe not, but they aren't so bad to shoot quickly. Hard to be too picky when the things are accurate and work with the as issued stock and magazines plus they come with good triggers.

I'd spend more than double I'd think to make my own.

Agreed. You can't get more for anywhere near the cost of these things. They got a lot right on the CTR.

That said, I still shoot my superlite 223 a lot more

I was just a chickenshit and didn’t feel like swapping bottom metal, so the CTR got the nod.

I get it they use the same action for everything. That part isn’t a big deal to me but sure seems silly on the standard magazine length. They give you everything you need then go out of the way to make the mag length too short. I wish they would give the other 223’s the same mag box length as they did with the ctr/ctr magazine.

I did the modifications on a couple and just never got it exactly right. Someone better at tuning magazines could probably make it work.

I agree, the CTR bottom metal is a lot better setup than the t3 223 magazine.

I got lucky though. I wanted to shoot 77 tmk in mine and it shoots them great loaded to 2.26 with a healthy dose of TAC