I hunted with a 223 this year, I have several rifles like most of us do so I did not see anything when hunting the 5 or 6 times with my .223. I was really hoping that something would allow me to try the 62 grain barnes over 24 grains of TAC. In looking at the reports on the various 223 vs all other calibers on Whitetail deer in these forums, in listening to people I hunt with or have hunted with, then the pictures with more damage posted from 223's on this forum it looks to me that the .223 actually does a better job than the 30-06 when used out to 100 or so yards. For sure it looks like it kills just as well or better than a 30-06.

Sure, within 100 yards. A .22 lr is as effective at point blank range.

i've shot lots of deer with a .22 lr in my younger years (from 3 to 10 yards at night off the back of my mule) - it worked every time. shot some with a 22-250, and that worked every time. shot many more with other big game calibers, and they all worked. they all work if you use them in specific applications. but for hunting, i'd prefer a 243 win or larger just because they give me more flexibility. ymmv.

my point is that I wonder if a 3000+ fps .223 round that goes all the way thru is more damaging to the deer than a 2600 FPS 180 grain 30-06 bullet that goes all the way thru or a 2400 fps 358 bullet. What role does velocity play as long as you get full penetration? Secondly does the .223 because it is smaller impart more work to the innards of a deer as it probably loses more velocity while its going thru.

killing deer is made up of many factors.
the lowest of importance is caliber.

I could go for "It kills just as well" , but I would have a hard time believing "It kills better".

I know you said neither, I'm just say'n.

Terry

NO

.223 bullet doesn't have the penetration power to pass through big deer bone.

Yeah.
Regarding holes in critters, you often can only see the real damage/performance if you take the hide off and look inside of a critter. If you cut your own up, you get to see it all.
A 30 06 can definitely make a big enough mess of a deer that you gotta wonder if you should be using something smaller........depending.

I meant yeah to the NO.

Actually he did.

"it looks to me that the .223 actually does a better job than the 30-06 when used out to 100 or so yards."

based on the pictures posted on this forum the holes look as big or bigger with a .223 than I have seen with many 30 caliber deer rifles. Someone will say "what about a bad angle" I wonder if a TSX bullet shot up the bung hole would go all the way to the heart/lungs out of a 223?

If there close enough and the angle is right dead is dead,. But if its long shooting and you have a bad angle I just dont see a 223 pulling it off. But I have never shot big game with one either.

Seems that the AK boys shoot a bunch with 223's, wonder if they will chime in.......

I look at it this way. I have Rem. 700 BDL-SS in 223- 6mm- 25-06 & 280. Come buck season, you can bet I will have the 280 with me. If a super big buck comes out I want the best suited rifle I own to take the buck with. Not no "maybe" caliber.

There is no replacement for shot placement. However if you dont hit it just right, say good bye to injured animal.

I have shot a lot of deer with both the 223 and the 30-06 and either can be effective, but there is more to it than that. My kids and grandkids all started out with a 222 and shot only under perfect conditions and they were successful..I have culled in Africa with the 223 and it worked under the conditions that I used it..I have seen the fast 22s fail on more than one ocassion when folks used them beyond their capabilities.

The 223 has limited effective range on big game, it can also fail to penetrate on ocassion, but one ocassion is enough to make it a non deer caliber IMO..It must be used very carefully as it is underpowered. It can be very destructive to flesh and excessive bloodshot meat can be prevelent. Although it works most of the time you cannot depend on it fully IMO...What impresses people is the explosive effect that kills instantly, but when that fails to happen then your deer runs a 100 or so yards and crawls into a thick brushy hidey hole and no blood trail and one deer wasted...

The 30-06 is under all condition a much better big game rifle, It will punch two big holes in anything and leave big time blood trails, sometimes it kills quickly, sometimes not, but you can always find your deer..It can be used at extreme range of say 400 yards and has been effective much further I suppose. You can take a shot from any angle and be assured of full penetration. With the right bullet you can control the amount of blood shot area or increase it. If you wound him pretty well he will lay down, and when you jump him you can stick one up his keyster and kill him on the spot, not so the 223.

The choice is an absolute no brainer IMO....There is more to killing a deer than those nice little instant kills that may or may not take place.

The problem with the internet is a couple guys that are very experienced at putting a marginal cartridge in just the right spot, can make it appear that anyone or everyone will have the same results.

Any cartridge can kill a deer and any cartridge in the right hands can consistently kill a deer. The question is, can any cartridge kill a deer consistently for everyone? The answer is no, as the majority of hunters have neither the skill nor take the time to practice to the point that they can consistently put that shot where it needs to go.

Of course it doesn't matter what you hit em with, if you don't hit em in a vital area, the difference between a .223 or .243 and a more forgiving round like a 7mm-08 or 30-06 is really margin of error. If they did a comprehensive study of hitting a deer from every angle and with varying accuracy by the shooter using the same bullet construction, I am positive that a 140gr bullet at 3000 FPS is going to drop that deer quicker and more often than a 60gr .223 at 3000fps.

i guess that it had to happen....

we had the .270 vs the 30-06..

the .308 vs. the 30-06

the .30 mags vs. the 30-06

the 7mm s vs. the 30-06

seems like somebody always has to assert that A is better than B...
or might be better... or could be better...
or.....
would be better if

a] the factories would load it right
b] the general populace would see the light
c] shooters in general could learn to shoot
d] everybody would get a clue/life/new job
d] ad nauseum, ad ignorem.....

+1 atkinson, well said and I agree it's an absolute no brainer for me too. I for one don't look for massive exit and wasted or bloodshot meat, no problem if they run 100 yards with a good bloodtrail, 30-06 does a mighty fine job. You must also factor in the shock value of an '06 on marginal hits, Waidmannsheil, Dom.

I shot a pig maybe 60 yards away about a month ago. He was walking, didn't stop, so I put the crosshairs on his shoulder and let one go with my .30-06, 150 fusion. The animal stepped forward as I fired, the bullet hit too far back...kidney area or so back there. Squealed really loud...I walked up and put one more in his chest and that was it. He would have died either way though. Maybe 150-175# so comparable in size to the average deer....most deer down here probably don't weigh even that.

I bought the '06 since I only wanted one rifle for now that I could take anything on this continent with, if I use the proper bullet and put it in the right place. IMO.

Oh yeah, the bullet went right through and made two big bleeding holes.

No

Makes for good conversation on forums I guess.

Sounds fine to me, there aren't different degrees of dead, just dead.

Concerning smashing bones, the 223 can do that just fine.



Really, I thought the problem was those that can't/haven't done something assume that it shouldn't/can't be done.

As usual your reading comprehension skills trail your mouth.

"Any cartridge can kill a deer and any cartridge in the right hands can consistently kill a deer. The question is, can any cartridge kill a deer consistently for everyone?"

As usual you are still an idiot.

As usual you're still a closet [bleep] that likes to post "look at me" pictures.

That the obvious escapes you doesn't surprise me, nor does your [bleep] talk.

I've asked you before to ignore my posts and I'd do likewise. The fact you have to stalk me all the time, like some high school girl, speaks volumes.

I will concede that the 223 will kill deer under the right conditions but better than the 30-06 i dont think so



gene

Day in, day out, year in, year out... Nope.

Depends a lot on where you hunt. Around here a 150 lb. deer is a BIG deer and most shots are under 100 yards. With the right ammo they seem to fall just as dead. I know a few people who use the 223 and 22-250 to kill a lot of deer.

I personally do not because most of my hunting is on North Georgia National Forest and WMA land that is public. I want no doubt about who made the shot. There is also a pretty fair chance that I could take a black bear or hog on most of the areas I hunt.

+1.


They work fine for hunting pets but I would not even consider taking one on a 'serious' deer hunt. Not with all the better choices available.

400 yards on a big, spooky deer and I'll take my .270 or .300WSM anyday over a .223. Not even a question.

Shouldn't you be shopping?

Oh no, not when there's a football game on!

Macys/Rosauers and back home in the nick of time.

Not for me.

Steelhead and I butt heads on this every time the .223/deer subject comes up. I really do respect his opinion. In my deer camp, we had 3 deer hanging. Mine was the smallest, a nice long tined 8 point. No one shoots does or small bucks but ladies and children. No one uses a rifle smaller than .25 caliber other than ladies or children. We are locals and try for big deer. I am not saying this to provoke, only to explain where I'm coming from. The .270 Win is probably the most used rifle in our camp. I killed my buck at 313yds with a .308 Win. Bang, flop. I have several rifles .25 caliber and smaller, but I do not choose to take them deer hunting here in KS. Big boys roam here. Good luck.

Don't matter none what folks use. Would I take my 223AI on a $6K guided mule deer hunt, probably not, but as I said before I'd not want to be a critter if that is what I had. I've seen plenty of deer drop to one and I'm also not a long distance shooter on deer, I like getting close, so I guess it suites me fine.

Still contend that dead is dead and the last two black bears I shot were with something your kids in KS wouldn't use on deer. Course if I only had a 10 day gun season I might just use a bazooka.

What I am asking about is "under 100 yards" and assuming you used a good bullet.

Have had deer go further when struck with a 35 Whelen than a 223AI. Big and slow seems to make a great impression on bigger critters.

I would trust the 223AI at 100 yards on any deer.

Especially since, at four hundred yards, a .223 is going about as fast as a .22 lr at point blank range.

I was wondering about that to, the big and slow pokes thru the deer and is lethal but does not scramble the insides as much so not as quickly lethal. Deer are not that big.

I'd feel pretty confident shooting a deer at point blank range with a 22 that had a muzzle velocity with a 62 gr. TSX of 1900fps or 75 gr. Scirocco at 2100 fps, the speed either fired from a 223 will be at 400 yards. Of course you can add a couple hundred fps to those 400 yard impact velocities via bigger cased .224's.
But I get the gist of using more rifle for big bodied/open country type hunting.

A 75gr Swift is doing damn near 2200fps at that distance, not sure what 22LR you are shooting that slings a 75gr bullet at 2200fps but sounds interesting.

Probably the new 22LR AI.

30 degree shoulder and 0 body taper ?

I don't know the specifics but I hear it's faster than hell....grin

I hear it feeds like chit just like a WSM .

Maybe a 17HMR Ackley Belted?

You musta heard that from a Kimber owner.....

No matter what they say, a 223 just ain't as cool as a 30-06.

Cartridges ain't cool, it's the user.........

The belt alone adds about 200 fps doesn't it ?

You can drive a Mercedes Sedan up a mountain switchback....that does not make it the tool for the job.

I know 22's kill them,and do very well with modern bullets.I was frankly amazed by what the 62 gr TSX did on Steelhead's deer.But day in and day out,under all conditions,I'll take a 30/06.

+1....no substitute for diameter and weight..and my wife uses a .223 as a backup..but not as a primary..but to each his own..thats what makes this a cool place...just my inflation riddeled .02..

Huh. This us a change of tune for you. Guess there really US a reason to choose (say) a .270 with all these .223's around. Glad to see you've come to your senses...

My opinion to the original poster, since he asked, is "no". :-)

The only reason is because where I'm going hunting the 223 ain't allowed. Figured you'd swallow again.

Liar. Read your own post.

Nice try though.

Again, a guy with no experience on the subject.

One of the quickest deer deaths I've ever seen was a doe I killed with a 22LR.

If circumstances could be controlled to give me that same shot every time, i'd hunt deer with a 22LR. But they can't.

What if the 30-06 had blue tape over the muzzle? Would it still be better ?

I tend to stay out of these pizzing contests, because actual experience counts for very little on this forum when weighed against post count or "popularity."

But, I'm compelled to offer:

Several years back I took a contract in the Philippines. It turned out thet we were assigned guards armed with AR-15s because of the kidnappings on the particular island. Once I discovered that, I brought back from my first R&R, classified as "crane parts" two 9 twist barrels and 600 rounds loaded with 60 grain Partitions. Over the next year I took several dozen Philippine Sambar ("brown deer") and countless boar. Based on that I've used since a 22-250 AI and 70 grain TSX to cull some 3 dozen whitetail, and IMO YES, they are fully the equal of .30 cal on whitetail...but what does actual experience mean vs the internet?

Ha! :-)

Yep.

Like the Ricky in your avatar! Who's Susanna?

Journeyman, it seems to me- at least I'm taking the question this way- that the question is a broad one. In other words, what's best under "all" circumstances. Even PH (Steelhead) said he wouldn't use a CF .22 one a mule deer hunt that mattered. Which is comical.

I'd use a CF .22 in a hot heartbeat in certain circumstances. In more "general" circumstances there are better choices. Steelhead (PH) thinks so too. 30-06 is one of them.

I don't doubt for a second that a .223 won't kill a deer most of the time.

I simply prefer a little more THUMP for the few times I shoot at a deer.

I said I might not, more because I don't want to listen to the 'expert' guides that have the same experience with it as you do. I can only suffer idiots for so long.

Jeff should just stick with what he knows, [bleep].

Last whitetails (3) I shot with the 22-250 AI and TSX was Christmas day - seeing the steam hit the cold air as the critter drops like swatted by the hand of God MUST be experienced to be believed

Bart watched me shoot an 8 point in Texas with the 223AI and said it was the fastest he has ever seen a deer drop.

Must have been luck......

He said that again today....

He wacked a dude today with his truck too...

Was it the fastest he ever saw a dude drop.......grin

That too...grin...

.233 for deer that's way too much gun, I prefer to hunt them with My daisy co2 pistol, A .223 is just overkill..........547.

Does Barnes make a TSX for that Daisy ?

Bullshit. You said you wouldn't take it on a $6000 trophy deer hunt for one simple reason- because you know that no matter how good it might be in controlled circumstances, and I believe you that it's good, it's not ideal in a situation where a) you really care, and/or b) the circumstances are not predictable.

Both a) and b) apply for all the deer hunting I personally do.

Thanks for finally admitting that BTW. You could have saved the forum a lot of grief by just conceding that a year ago...

Steve,
I'm confused by your signature line - I have myriad literature from the various hunting organizations I support that list the Bangles, including Susanna Hoffs, as the biggest enemies to hunting extant...?

If i stopped listening to everyone that was anit gun/hunting I would be left with Ted Nugent and...................?

Or how about actors ? Or chain stores ? ect ect.

you're a load your mother should have swallowed.

Stick with what you are good at Jeff, turning oxygen into carbon dioxide

Anyone on a hunting website that supports an avowed (not to mentioned "honored") PETA supporter is a hypocrite of the highest order, at the very least.

I give thousands each year to support our rights - the loss of music or film vs. the loss of the lifestyle I was raised in and love is not even a contest...

If it offends you put me on ignore

Naaah, I prefer to keep my eye on enemies of my rights...

I doubt anyone would point to a 22 centerfire as the ideal rifle for the hunter who isn't sure whether their bullet will hit the deer in the front half or the rear half.

Sorry you feel I am your enemy,I hold no ill will to you.shrug.

True, some here seem to dote on ass shooting deer.

In the case of one who isn't sure there is no ideal rifle.
In the case of one who is sure one is better than the other.

Paul, that's out of line.

You want we should talk about your mother that way?

Congrats, you just showed yourself to be the lamest little piece of [bleep] on the 'Fire. Your mother must be so proud!

C&B, have you ever hit an animal a few inches from where you meant to hit it?

Tell the truth. The answer is pertinant to this thread.

So does having actual experience

sweet talk will get you no where... i've tried to help you but you are a dumb [bleep]!

A few inches from where you meant to hit it is different than 3 feet from where you meant to hit it.

Last I checked a deer's arse is more than a few inches from the vitals.

Paul, at least now if we ever meet in person, we'll have something to talk about.

PH (steelhead), your much-vaunted EXPERIENCE is what led you to state, right here on this thread, that you'd choose something other than a CF .22 for a deer hunt you cared about. And you are right.

No, I'm thinking you are wrong about who is right, but you did mention his name.

In a sharp quartering-away angle, a deer's butt is a few inches from slipping that bullet in behind the last rib. I know this <g>.

I guess none of you have ever screwed up and not hit a deer exactly where you meant to? C'mon... Tell the truth.

Just me speaking gang but personally this is not the kind of behavior and or kind of talk that I hang out around the Fire to read.

I'd expect to see this kind of trash talk going on in other places. But on the Fire, I don't feel it's got a place. But perhaps I am wrong as I have been so b4 and will certainly be so in the future as well.

Guess what I am saying here is Paul I'd appreciate it if you'd consider deleting that post as I just don't feel it's appropriate for this place. And you choose not to, well that's clearly your choice.

So carry on as you wish boyz, as I'm heading to bed and this isn't my fight.

Later guyz

Dober

And by the way, b4 anyone chooses to get after me for this I will say that there's been more than once that I've wanted to really rip into someone. For the most part I've done ok and haven't stirred the pot too much(although I have thrown more than a few verbal punches). But if I did get out of line...I would expect that someone here would call me on the carpet and splain it to me.

It was fairly crude in IMO and that coming from someone who is fairly crude....grin

Jeff: Most disagree with me on this and that is their right. However with a deer I want and presented with that shot-at close range-I wouldn't try to be cute with placement. I would try to break hips, break him down, then followup as quickly as possible. At anything other than close range I would pass that presentation up.

Not classic or necessarily pretty, but in the majority of times it's over just a fast.

22 cal is illegal for hunting in Canada. But in South Africa I used a CZ 223 for all my Impala. None ever complained. I would take on a Deer with it any time.

Battue, it's not something I would do again (on purpose anyway, grin)... I butchered him myself so I got to deal with the consequences and I was pretty disgusted with the mess I'd made...

I am primarily a meat hunter, so shooting him right in the meat was... regrettable.

Dunno what would have happened with a .223. Would it have smashed the hip joint and gone through the whole deer lengthwise?

It can't work better; sometimes as well, yes.

I have helped maybe a dozen kids get their first deer hunting with me with one of my rifles.

If they are really little they use my 223 Handy Rifle,so far it has two kills(a one shot and a two shot).

Most of them have used my 260 Remington with 120 grain balistic tips. All one shot kills.

One of the kids used my 270 Weatherby because I wasn't confident he could make the 430 yard shot with my 7mm-08 which was sighted in for 200 yards. I wouldn't have let him try but his dad was dieing from cancer and wanted to see his son get his first deer. The kid made a perfect shoulder shot and he was 12 years old at the time,we had practiced a lot.

I say this to make a couple of points,lots of things work depending upon the circunstances,the 223 kills were inside of 100 yards on small bodied deer.The 260 and 7mm-08 kills were at lots of reasonable distances at deer of various sizes.

My other point is life is too short and there are lots of more important issues to waste time arguein about about this kind of BS.

Hell,take a kid hunting or shooting,or a handicapped person. There really is no point in going on like a bunch of Jr. High boys about who is the coolest or who has the best stuff.

Just my thoughts,carry on ladies,if you must.

This pissing match happens here every year at this time,you have those that have(referred to a stunsters) vs. those that haven't(referred to as an expert by osmosis )

"Like sands thru an hour glass these are the days of our life""

the 22-250AI with a 70 grain TSX bullet seems to be bordering on a .243Win with the 85 grain TSX! That is sure an interesting idea! Too bad most all manufactururers seem to want to put 1-14's in their 22-250's leading one to a custom rifle. The place I have seen problems with the 30-06 is shooting a small whitetail with a somewhat harder 180 grain bullet. It looks like from the discussions that a .223 with a 62 grain TSX will probably outperform a 30-06 with a 180 on a small deer under 100 yards, but probably not a 30-06 shooting a 150. For a low recoil type rifle the 22-250 with a 62 grain TSX with the right twist seems to be very interesting!
Just spoke briefly with my friend at the gun store I frequent, they lost two bucks in Alabama this year shooting them with that new Rem 6.8SPC, don't know the details, he usually shoots a .260 and as far as I know has never lost one with that rifle.

Jeff I wouldn't take that shot with a .223. One of the reasons I usually go with .30s or above as it gives me more options. I also would not necessarily expect the .30-06 to penetrate the whole deer. Again the intent is to break him down then finish it quickly. Shots that break hips usually involve the spine or destroy the ability to move and are usually decisive. Shooting them there involves more than a random shot to the rear.

But if I am willing to place additional restrictions on myself the .223 will work. I think your opponents willingly accept those limitations and feel me, you and the rest of us should recognize that as obvious and therefore the .223 works on deer at least as well as the .30-06.

i've enjoyed a lot of your posts... usually when i see your name it is worth a click....
this kind of pissin in the fire needs to go away.....

There was a guy near here who hunted for years with a Win 9422 in 22 Mag. He did it at night with a flashlight. Shot almost all of them in the eye. It took the fish and game boys a long time to get him but he killed a lot of deer.
I don't know many people around here that use a 223. The deer are small and the terrain is very dense. Most use a 243 or 270. My cousin lives in Alabama were deer are vermin and he kills 2 or 3 a week. He shoots a 22-250. The first deer I ever saw killed was with a 22 Hornet in 1952. One went through but one blew up one his shoulder.
The Savage 22HiPower was touted as a great round for everything including tigers. It's gone now.
Ray put this is the best perspective.

I live about 70 miles southeast of you, doubt there is a large difference in body size of the deer we are hunting. The 3 largest bucks I've ever seen were all taken by a 243 by 3 different hunters. The smallest one went 166+ B&C score, and all were huge bodied. One was taken at a range of a couple feet(Brother in law got that one as it jumped over him and the fenceline he was backed into), one at 150 yards and one at 280. Placement and bullet construction count way more than dia.! Every time.

Uh, yes it does, with the right bullet.

yeah....like eleven year old kids?



And that was a Hornet, not a .223, which is a magnum by comparison. Whitetail deer are small, fragile animals and aren't at all difficult to kill. Most don't outweight the enemy soldiers that 5.56 rounds have been killing for almost fifty years, and deer don't wear body armor or have an ideology that compels them to fight on when injured. So its kind of silly to say a .223 with good bullets is some kind of expert's gun on deer.

But it is equally silly to suggest that there is no qualitative difference between the performance of a 55 grain TSX or the like at 3300 fps and, say, a 150 grain BT at 3000 from an '06. There is a significant difference. Once they're dead, they're dead but the '06 is definitely more.....well, authoritative.

Based on page count for these recurring threads, apparently not to some folks, doc.

Thats way outta line. Grow up......

Can't believe the moderators haven't deleted this one for ya.

It's not possible to think it will perform better than the 30-06. Personally, I draw the line at .243 and only under the right conditions. I know it can be done, but why risk it.

Chris

No

I'll see your NO and raise you a HELL NO.

Watch it guys... what you are saying is strictly verboten... grin...

killing deer is made up of many factors.
the lowest of importance is caliber.

I would ask, would you make a remark like about someones mother face to face? If anyone ever did that face to face about my mom, he would be dead in seconds and to hell with the results, and you can take that to the bank.

That kind of stuff is uncalled for and you should not be allowed to post another post on this forum IMO....It amazes me how brave some of these cowards can be at 1500 miles away using an anomous name.

This thread is ridiculas to start with. The answer is obvious in that the more powerful caliber is the better choice, end of story

Banning would be his easy way out. No second chance. Way to go Ray.

Given my choice, I'd take the .30-06 every time - unless I was shooting the dog-sized deer I've seen in some areas of the country.

Yup

the MAJOR thing you need to remember is KINETIC energy; a .223 will only supply a limited amount of this energy at range;

go shoot your neighbor's cat with a bb gun, then shoot it with your .223;

go shoot an ELK with your .223 and he will run into the following month;

you want to 'humanly' kill your game; and not have to track it for that afore mentioned month;

you want to kill it outright if at all possible;

the bigger the game, the more energy is required;

the .223 was designed to 'injure',and not necessarily kill;

and was never developed as a hunting round; it was developed to
injure and maim humans;

It was developed to kill people. Saying otherwise is to embrace a particularly enduring myth.

Thank you RyanScott; If you want to kill deer, and not be afraid
of recoil, I raised all three of my boys on my good old standby
.270 with 130 gr. bullet; .243 might do on does on head shots, but I would not shoot anything less;

kill them quick, with the right equipment;

I would never shoot at a deer with a .223;

for all you naysayers out there, check out the twist of any .223
barrel; the round tumbles after about 100 yds; It's designed to tumble and fragment after hitting anything; even a blade of grass
will cause the round to fragment; Hits your finger, and tears up your hand; That's what it's supposed to do; Not designed to kill deer;

Wow,the knowledge of some could half fill a thimble...

I'd never use a 270 on elk

this just gets better and better...

That is one accurate tumbling bullet then to kill varmints out to 400+ in factory config, AI it an the possibilties are endless.

surely you jest

Oh my...

Welcome to the fire sir. You might find it more rewarding to type a little less and read a little more on this topic. When I say read a little more I would tend to listen to the people with all the pictures of dead animals.

The guy is either trolling or is like some of my old students, can't pass algebra but wants to argue calculus.

My thoughts exactly......

Was that read in F+S or at the Holiday Inn Express???????


George

And here I thought I was shooting nice clover leaf groups at 300, but apparently it was just two that hit close and crossed one another during the tumble.

Now, if I could just figure out what happened to the other one???

It's like knife throwing, if you can match the end-over-end to the distance they'll hit point on.

And to think all this time that I was under the impression that Ryon Scott was pretty dog gone knowledgable on guns, now I find out he doesn't even know that the .223 was designed to tumble!

Oh btw, the .223 bullets are NOT designed to tumble..Only the military metal case rounds tumble and they can't be depended on to do that, although they do from time to time. somebodys been reading the military guide to wounding the enemy, and like most gov. publications its wroght with ideology!

Not all of Canada...Centerfire 22's are completely legal in BC to take anything from mice to grizzlies or moose...(But not wild Bison).

22 rimfires are illegal for all big game hunting....

Guys, if you want use a .223 Rem or 7.62x39 to hunt deer have at it.
Can you kill deer with them? Of course you can, with a well placed shot.
I don't like either cartridge, mainly because of the original platforms they were chambered in.
I don't like the original AR platform or the AK platform, mainly because I spent a year in a target rich environment shooting one and being shot at by the other.
If you want use these cartridges and platforms by all means have at it. It is a free county. But I'm not using the damn things, too many bad memories.
Oh by the way I do have a varmint rifle chambered for the .223 but it in a different platform.

Again welcome to the fire Mike, I hope you stick around, there are a lot of people with a lot of knowledge here, it has benefited my hunting and shooting skills to participate in this forum as I hope it will benefit you, there is a lot of knowledge here. You have to understand that there are a lot of notions surrounding firearms of various types that have been foisted onto the unsuspecting public thru a variety of media including our always accurate News folks, and yet many of them are dead wrong. You appear to have heard a few of these notions and accepted them. This is a good place to listen and learn.

nevermind...I'm not gettin involved.

am contemplating getting a stevens bolt action center fire; have known that these are actually savage rifles without all the frills; have read that they are good 'tool' guns; down and dirty and work well; looking at a 22-250 which is not new to me , but found I can buy this long arm for $265 new;

anyone have any input on if this is a good buy


The above question was asked by mw0248. The same person that said a 223 would tumble past 100 yards is wanting to pay money for a Stevens or as he said "Savage without the frills" 22-250. If a 22 cal. barrel chambered for 223 wont shoot straight why would a 22-250???????

What? .243 maybe good for head shots on does, as if does are easier to kill and less valuable than bucks, let along the fact that thousands of deer have been humanely killed with .243s....
As for the .223 tumbling comment, I'm waving the absolute BS flag here guy, along with the blade of grass comment. The .223 was not designed as a hunting round, but I've seen plenty of deer killed with it. I'll never use it, I like my .243s, .30-06s, and .260s too much and never wonder about penetration. I'd LOVE to see some empirical data to back up the tumbling comment, that should be one heck of a read!

Agreed... I'm with Steelhead in that I don't consider the .223 the equal of the 30-06 (say) as a deer round, but what mw0248 stated is just wrong on the face of it...

You are an amazing idiot. I DO consider the 223 a deer cartridge, period.

mw0248 just needs to read posts and let people will first hand knowledge and expierence answer questions. As a matter of fact I don't know why anyone that has not killed a few deer with a 22 centerfire is even posting on this thread. If you took away all the posts that don't have expierence reckon how many pages would be left?

You are saying what I've been saying all along. Will a .223 work? Of COURSE it will. Is it the best choice if you care about the hunt, as in you have a hard tag to draw, paid a bunch of money, don't know the circumstances of the shot (distance, likely conditions, etc)... or if you just plain CARE a lot about every deer you hunt because you only get one or two tags a year...

Of COURSE it isn't.

You can spin this however you want, and I'm sure you will, but the fact is you know I'm right, you agree with it, and you stated just that.

So set up your straw man arguments, call me your childish names, bring in your buddies to make vile personal comments, do your normal thing. It don't matter to me. Right is right, and I'm right.

Of course, so were you, in your post above.

Dude, I told you why I wouldn't use one on a guided hunt, don't want to listen to idiots like you telling me it won't work. The fact that I've never been on a guided hunt and likely never will should preclude that from being an issue.

I would take a 223AI deer hunting anyplace I've hunted deer and will continue to do so, assuming it's legal to be used.

Tell me the critters you've shot with either the 30/06 and the 223 and you'll have something to discuss, otherwise you are doing the only thing you know how to do, GUESS, and you ain't very good at that.

This sums you up

"Stupid can either be spawned from a persons unwillingness to correct their ignorance or not acknowledging their obvious ignorance.

Educated does not equal intelligent. Intelligence is the ability to acknowledge your ignorance and work through it without showing your stupidity."

You are both stupid and unintelligent.

I will say if you are the type of hunter who only gets a shot at a deers butt once a year a 223 might not be for you. But I still don't know what caliber to recomend for that.

God forbid he eat 'tag' soup. I can't begin to count the number of stupid posts Jack Off has made but there appears to be no end in sight. Might even be a pun there

When you can't get yourself in position for a good clean shot...

Get a bigger gun and shoot anywhere on the body.

I would say these folks need to learn to bowhunt but on second thought no way.

I had to let by far the biggest buck I've ever seen walk back a few years ago. I've no doubt it would go 160's(I have one on the wall that is 145" and some change and this one was much bigger) and that's real big for our farm in TN. I was bowhunting and had no shots. I never saw him again and I'm shure I never will. That's how hunting goes somethimes.

Of course there are those who say a .277 cannot kill like a .284, so a 224 cannot kill deer like a 243.

Then there are those who don't/won't/can't and tell all sundry we cannot either...

Less meat damage with a 224, J.O..

this is the most accurate statement of the whole thread

This was my brother's response when I informed him a .223 is the chit for wildass Breaks bucks. Seriously the only deer he has shot was with a .22-250(nice buck on a calm day).

Never mind I'm intellegent,I'll acknowledge my ignorance as this is the most accurate statement

Hmm Sammy, your bro knows sign language eh...

Dober

Well, it's a good thing that one doesn't need a PhD to enjoy this sport/hobby. Give me the 30-06 and leave me to my ignorant bliss! If the omniscient can get it all done with the .223, God bless'em.

I'm deaf so he keeps it simple Dober....grin


We all know a 223 will kill a deer.
A bigger gun just gives a guy alot more thump for the all to often less than ideal situation. I'll take the extra thump.

I hear that Sam....grins

As well I agree with your thoughts on the 223 vs 06. I've seen enough done in by both to know when and where the diff becomes evident.

Dober

As with many things, avoiding extremes most everything works just fine on deer.

I still get a kick outta these threads though Dober!

Yeah me too Sammy, just yesterday I learned how well the 275 Rigby kicked arse on the lowly 7/08...stick around bro you'll learn tons...grin

I still have some .270 slugs for you if you wish?

Dober

(also, you been to that hugo trophy house that Brad's building?)

You hunt with a .223 on up Mark and have tagged a 'few' critters. Where does a guy draw the line?

I only started hunting last year so bear with me, but have found a 416 Rigby to be entirely adequate for porky's...one time tossed parts in two different directions by 55'....now that was a good day (for me)

Dober

Mark is waiting on a 204 cal. TSX, hell probably a 17.

Lots of fun stuff around and I have learned a bunch here also. The 270 is an improved 30/06 and that Bozeman is actually in Montana (despite the designer coffee shops, Birkenstocks and bagels)..........grin

Lets just say that I know of a few critters from lopes and deer on up that have been nuked with a 17 Rem. The 25 Horn and the 25 Barnes did there job just fine as long as we did ours.

If I could only get Barnes to do a 32 or so TSX for the .204 I'd be all over that one...grin

Dober

Way funny, you got me!

Dober

I still have some 140PT loaded up that I need to air out Dober before I try anything new. Thanks, I'll let you know they shoot and go from there.
I'm in love with the shortfat and have been shooting the crap out of that thing lately. Haven't cleaned it in 200-300 rounds and it just keeps shooting better. That's a good thing right???grin


No, I haven't seen the house. What part of the valley? Good to hear they're working. We are slower than hell right now...

That is for sure Steely, I recall one double OT game in college where our coach told us that by taking the extreme route we'd either "win big and or loose big"...

Dober

Keep shooting that short fat till it pukes, they make more tubes every day!

Dober

(south 19th, we should meet there some morn, don't forget your gps it's big)

Good ol' Bozeman Scott. I KNOW you secretly LOVE it(and not just for turd dropping)......grin

Steely, I moved here in 78, you should of seen it then, just a cool lil college cow town!

Things do change don't they.

Dober

Sam,

U spose Steely and Sir Scott's have anything in common...
(besides cold beer)

Dober

It has changed a bunch since the last time I was there ('95) but I'm sure that is the way with many places.

Livingston is still pretty cool

Some of those homes are ridiculously big/nice.

Keeps us working men busy so I sure can't complain.

There's a reason why Livingston has stayed the same.

It's called WIND!


Beautiful setting but [bleep] can it be a windy, miserable sob over there.

Plus Livingston is blessed with a bit of wind from time to time...grin

You should of been in Livingston many moons back when Jimmy Buffet played at the Longbranch.

Dober

I used to like going to visit the MRL yard in Livingston; I have always been a train nut in addition to a rifle loonie.

Guess I am doubly hopeless...

Tim!


Didn't they convert an old train depot into a restaurant or something?

You guys ever eat at the Montana Rib & Chop House?
Boze is getting one this year, should be sweet!

Dober,
Put me down for a couple of boxes of .204 TSX's, I'd love to try them in my .204 pocket rocket. Only thing is the state of Oregon say you can't hunt deer with anything smaller than a 22 centerfire. Maybe I just wouldn't tell them.
What's the Longbranch? We have a Longbranch Tavern in Monroe. Good place to have a beer and has better food than the local restaurant.
Doc

Sam,
They had a cool looking station at the west(?) end of town, but I don't remember if they made it into a restaurant.
I betcha they did just that however.
Been too many years since I have been up that way; I need to change that one of these days...

Scott is right, it really is a neat old town isn't it Tim.


Yeah buddy, you need to get back up here!

Doc-most every town in Montana has one or maybe two Longbranch saloons and of course a Mint as well...

And don't forget the Stockmans (bank or bar or both)

Dober

For certain!

10-4 Tim!


Stockman's takes the cake in Montana no doubt Dober. Hell Missoula even has a 'Stocks'....grin

Depends on what you consider "better"

Historically, I've seen people change what they think is better many times.

Doc-check the varmint section for a 204/TSX update.

Now back to the 223/06 thread.. sorry about the temp hijack

Dober

Hey here's a idea - shoot'em with a 3 ft long 223 with a pointed end. Now there's a challenge.

Sam, saying that makes you... Let's see if I can keep it all straight... You are both stupid and unintelligent... You are a [bleep] idiot... You are a load your mother should have swallowed... You don't know chit... And about a dozen more I can't recall, cause I'm such a dumb idjit what never shoulda been borned by my mama...

What a load of CRAP these guys spew. Talk about your straw man arguments; I have never, once, said a .223 won't work. NEVER.

I killed a deer with a .22RF, and it was lights-out. I'm for thinking a .22 CF would be lights-out too in the right circumstances. And just for you Steelhead (PH), I've killed two deer with a 30-06, but I decided it was more gun than I needed/wanted for the deer I hunt, how I hunt them.

But you know what, PH? I got 8 preference points saved up for THE premium mule deer hunt in Oregon. It's a high-desert hunt down near Nevada in the Trout Ck mountains. There is no way that I, the rest of us, or by your own tacit admission YOU are packing a .223 for that trophy DEER hunt that takes 10 years to save up for.

And that proves my point. The 30-06 is a better general-purpose deer cartridge than the .223. Thanks for agreeing. You can expect to see your own words quoted anytime you choose to be a peckerhead (PH) on this subject.

Grin.

You havin a bad day as well Jeff?

I am curious as to why it takes 10 years of saving to get 8 preference points. Sounds like you got screwed on that deal.

You gonna azz-shoot it?

(sorry, couldn't resist..................)

Holy schit.

What a [bleep]' brain child.

How in the name of holy hell Marines (bt/dt) ever qualify at 500 meters with a bullet tumbling for 400 of those meters, must be [bleep]' beyond me...............

DSMFer, where the hell they keep coming from, is a mystery worth of Holmes.

I think that summs it up

Everybody needs to crack a cold beer and chill the [bleep] out....grin

Shutup

b!tches..................

Sean, here's some more if that doesn't cease to amaze..... https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...&topic=0&Search=true#Post2672790

Go up, down, whatever. Silly really.

I like your brother's response better...

Jeezus................................................

Oh, you do so have to check out the "longhunter" thread, too. I ain't anywhere near drunk enough for this schit recently. Right now, not sure if getting drunk enough is even possible.

Just like a bag on an ugly woman, it surely can help.

It'd need a body bag......................

And ugly still gets through.

Good Lord A'mighty, I sure HOPE not... grin... That was hopefully one of those first time/last time things.

May I point out (ahem) that I actually shot the poor [bleep] in the vitals, by way of his butt? It was just sort of a roundabout way to get the bullet there...

Thank God you didn't bring up odors.....

Dude, some things are a given.

Just take a sniff.

Was that with a 30/06 or a flav of 22?

Now that you mention it, there has been a stench of mudwhistle in this thread....

Can't know............... but the muthaphucker is gonna linger for a while, no doubt. Sticky b!tch, too...........

He'll linger with a finger, but he ain't gonna put anything substantial in there. 'Tis easier to cheer from the bleachers....and speculate.

No sir... But *I* didn't bring it up. Just playing defense on that one.

I'll never hear the end of that buck... That's what I get for telling the truth...

No, for being an idiot. Lots of folks have made bad shots that don't continually talk about other things which they have zero experience. You have proven the point over and over again that retards don't know they are retarded.

PH,

It's so obvious that a '06 is a superior all-conditions deer rifle to a .223 that I can say so even never having used one for deer.

So can everyone else with a brain. And they have. Buck of a lifetime is 400 yards away, 10 mph crosswind, quartering away, its the evening of the last day of a hunt you care about, and by some miracle you got a .223 and a 30-06 to choose from, you know damn well which rifle you'd choose... As you said earlier, you'd go 30-06.

Put down your superiority complex for a minute and admit it. Show yourself to be more of an adult than we all think you are.

Or not... Laffin'....

Jaap - earlier you stated that it is illegal to use .22 caliber for hunting in Canada. I can't speak to the regulations in Alberta but I have in my hand the regulations for Ontario.

On page 22 of the 2008 reg's there is a table of firearms restrictions for hunting in Ontario. The table is needed because there are a variety of restrictions in various WMU's.

With regard to cetre fire rifles they are either allowed or not (ie. in a bow zone centre fire rifles would NOT be allowed.) There is no reference that I can find as to a minimum caliber.

There is a foot note that gives some situations where only .22 rimfire cartridges may be used.

It appears you either need to be more specific with your descriptions or refrain from making generalized comments that may not be correct.

Jim

After reading this whole thread (ouch) I am going to do my best to summarize my findings.........

Ahh, never mind.......grin

Will a 223 kill better than a 30-06 I don't know for sure but all of my deer for this past deer season did not care that they were shot with a mini 14 (223) from ranges of 15 to 120 yards. I do know that a 223 is not the first thing that most people will use for deer hunting but keep in mind that it dose not mater if you use a 577 T-REX if you can not shoot it, it will not kill as good or bad as a 223.

That maybe the most intelligent 1st post I've seen ....welcome to the Fire 25souper

Easy answer - Yes but only when it's in the hands of a person who isn't pushed to take no standard shots and the range is under 300 yards.

change those and the tables turn.

What if's, what if's, what if's, what if it's Tuesday in Italy with a fast approaching F4 tornado coming in from your left, the deer is running a 17mph straight away, the batteries on your range finder are shot and a rattlesnake has latched onto your leg.

WWJOD

Steely,

Quite the thread.

Still LMAO on the Steely in the confesional thread. I'd pay to see that vid....probably be a 4 hr movie.......

Tony

hey Tony, howz it goin?

I'm a buyer these days

I'm all in, been that way for a while...just sitting back and laughing at all the swings.

We sold our house back in Sept., been renting since. We finally signed with a builder and are in the process of having one built.

Life is good, especially since JS endorsed Alf Fields views.....

Tony

Wouldn't it be a toot if the two of them were putting us on?

The first post said nothing about shooting deer at 400 yards. It said for a hundred yards or so. I would want what I shot best at that distance. I know that's not all that far for some,but I've not been able to spend much time past 300 yet. Mostly due to where I live.

Perfectly legal in New Brunswick

Then again HOPE and dreams are all an Obabma supporter has....

One factor you have to look at also, is it legal to use a .22 caliber where you hunt. I know when I lived in Wyoming it had to be .24 caliber or better. With that said my Ruger Mini 14 was relegated to a camp meat gun. I'm sure a .223 can be used on deer but the question is should it be used on deer.

Think I'll watch "Groundhog Day" tonight.

Too bad these threads don't self destruct after the first page.

your point?

In reality they usually do.

No, it isn't possible. Anything smaller than the .243 Winchester should be illegal for use on deer size game.

Paging back through this thread, which is tedious at best <g>, the reader will find several hunters who have killed numerous deer with both .223's and larger rounds, and who wrote nice long posts on the subject... TexasRick and Atkinson come to mind, and there's a few more too. Their posts are well written and sum things up pretty well as far as I'm concerned.

For me, a 30-06 is more rifle than I generally want or need for how I hunt and what I hunt. A .223 is less rifle than I want to use for reasons that are simple and easy to understand for anyone not coming at this question with an agenda.

There are compromises with any cartridge. There's a very fertile middle ground in the world of deer cartridges that works very well- for me- and gives me the compromises I choose to accept.

I've seen some worthless threads on this site, but I think this one is getting crammed into the top slot in rapid fashion.

Only you can stop the pain. Back away from the wall.

That post fits in with most of your posts.

How did you ever kill a deer with a Mini-14? Everybody tells me you can't hit the side of a barn with one of those things! And those deer are wearing leashes. Did you kill somebody's pet?

Welcome aboard 25souper. Great 1st post.

Terry

deleted

I know that aint a deer bullet.......blue tip would spook 'um

Anyone remember this ....almost a year to the day http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1923267/page/0/fpart/1

hunting season is over and we are all just bored!

Terry makes a good point, we(myself included) pxss all over the mini14 and yet people hunt with it and get good results. Many pxss all over the .223 but people hunt with it and get good results. Mule Deer said the longest running deer he has seen was one shot thru the lungs by his wife with a 30-06 and a 180 grain bullet, I duplicated that experience this year once again for the 3 or 4th time. So I am going to try some softer bullets. So for 20-40 yard shots I cannot see the .223 with a 70 grain speer or 63 grain TSX being that much worse especially for our small southern whitetail deer, in some cases it might even work better.

IF I may bring a big brother of the .223, to a $6000 hunt, I would do it. Anything that shoots the 62 grain TSX or the 60 grain G.S.Custom to 4,000 feet per second works for me. It would work to 400 yards.

Terry (TCI) got mad at me once for dissing the accuracy (or lack of) of the mini-14... it really is about the only thing wrong with those suckers. I owned one, put a lot of rounds through it, and had a bud with another one that I shot a fair amount. Both sucked hind tit in the accuracy department, but what neat little rifles other than that little detail! I just love 'em.

Folks have been saying that the new model Mini is, on average, more accurate. Dunno if I'd go .223 or not, but, a decently accurate Mini would be a very cool rifle in whatever caliber one chose to run!

Rabble rouser!

It's been nice that, on this most recent thread, good ol' Steelhead finally admitted that on a hunt he cared about he'd run a heavier cartridge. That's all I've been saying all along. Nice to be in agreement with the man. Kumbaya, hugs all around, brotherly love, high-five's and handshakes... it's all good.

Out of curiousity, DVDGeorge, what did you run for deer this year as far as a CF rifle? If I remember right you mostly muzzleload hunt...

I'm going to shoot an elephant in the face with a 223AI now.

I know, lets start a 'What's a Good Cartridge for Black Bears' so Jeff can get a couple of pages of guessing in.

No, but if you take the position that a .223 is superior to a 30-06 for black bears I will be glad to debate you on it...

The way I read your post Steelhead, you were saying that the 300 Win Mag was the minimum you'd use on deer (if you cared about killing them).

Don't bother confirming, I know what's right and I'm right, so even if that's not what you said, I'm going to run with it and repeat it as often as possible, attributing it to you. Pretty sure I know what you think better than you do anyway.

There needs to be a black bear forum first...

Oh yeah, Steelhead will be living with the FACT that he said he'd not use a .223 on a paid mulie hunt for as long as he continues to be such a PH towards me, about this subject... you can bet on it.

Between his slip-up there and Paul W. emerging from his alchoholic haze long enough to barf up one of the most vile hairballs I've seen on this forum, and then get thrashed for it, this thread has been just peachy...

At least a few truths have been uttered on this thread.

We need to figure out how to hook SH and I up to some sort of power generator... we could run a small city... grin...

your a tool... plain and simple...

Jeff, you think that Bigfoot stole your elk head from a tree limb while Yeti made scratch marks on a nearby tree trunk and that a blue piece of tape wrapped around the end of your barrel will scare deer away for miles. And that voting for Obama was the right thing to do because Palin is scary.

Your powers of perception are... well, questionable would be a compliment.

You are worse than that, Paul. And many more than just me now know it, if they didn't already. That's on YOU... not me.

cwh2, boy can YOU mis-represent things. Is this an Alaskan thing, or does it just seem that way virtually all of the time?

i'm hurt. really. but your still and idiot!

Sorry, Jeff, I should have been more clear. I'm not asking you what you think, I'm telling you.

Should be familiar.

Neither was the 30'06, 308, 6.5x55, or the 7x57...

Perhaps we suffer fools less

true...

This one should have been wiped on a sock!

Thanks for the kind words guys
My mini 14 is one they made after they retooled the ruger plant. The new mini's are much better than the old ones are. All of my ammo is hand loaded and I get to pick the right bullet for the job.

i'm sorry that the sheep isn't what your use to diddling but that's what was shot. you might want to talk to your doctor about your desire to have sex with dead animals....

25souper,

What kind of 100-yard accuracy are you seeing?

I could like another mini... I love the Garand-style action. Even had one of those 44 mag Ruger carbines for a while (but it was a jammer)...

That things eyes ain't right...

I am getting a 5 shot group in 3/4" at 100 and could do better with a better trigger.

I take it that's a Walukewicz?

TFF...

LMAO! I remember. What a great read and source of entertainment.

Funny thing, Paul's comment was a shot at you, but figured you were to obtuse to understand that.

Still sending "Say you're sorry, my puzzy hurts" PM's to him?

Be careful Paul. Next thing you know little Jeffy will call you a pariah.

Plus, I notice the moron's club has a new member.

Y'alls little club is in full display... glorious...

You got that right...

Frank Glaser, Alaska's Wolf Man in the Rearden book, was a market hunter in AK for a long time and used a lot of rifles to shoot a lot of game. He had to use the standard cup and core bullet of his day (retired in '54 after decades of living it) and said the fastest killing rifle he used was the Swift. And that for everything except the big bears.

And he shot big bears with it. And moose and caribou, too. Seems if a Swift spitting cup and cores will reliably kill moose a 223 ought to do a fair job on a deer...
art

There's no way. If you're only getting 2600fps from a 180gr bullet in a 30-06 then you are loading it light. When I used 180s in my 30-06 I got 2850fps chronoed and 2750 is easily doable. The 30-06 has heavier bullets and more frontal area than the 223 and will move them just as fast.

Here's a deer that was shot with a 180gr 30-06 by someone else.



That's a BIG exit.

Here's a hole in a deer shot with a 150gr 30-06 at 3000fps.



I'd like to see a 223 duplicate thoes.

your post does not prove that the 30-06 is a better deer cartridge, its just your opinion and nothing more. I could have shown you a 180/300WSM 4 inch hole in the lungs of a doe this year, deer ran 85 yards so what? The 223 pictures on this forum are just as impressive and they are easy to find. My opinion (and that all that it is) is that smaller faster softer bullets seem to interact faster with smaller lighter animals such as the 100-160 pound deer I shoot. My redneck hunting buddy laughs at a even the 308, as there is nothing like a 30-06 in his mind. Almost everyone I hunt with hunts with a 30-06. Here is a news flash metal prices may continue to go up or Obama might puts a 500% tax on ammunition, my thoughts are that smaller might be cheaper! I tried to see for myself this year but the deer did not cooperate. Maybe next year stay tuned.

Telling......

at 100 yards w/ a standing broadside shot i wouldnt be hesitant about using a 223 on south eastern deer.
unfortunatly range and presentation are somthing i find difficult to prearrange.

The 30-06 shoots as fast with a heavier bullet and more frontal area. The laws of physics do not back up your claim. If you want to use a 223 then go ahead. It's illegal here for big game.

+2

I used to believe the same thing.

I don't need a 4" hole to kill a deer, deer die easy.

Holy [bleep].......

If you can shoot, it don't matter whether it's a .223 or a .30-06 (own both, killed stuff with both, and a bunch of other rounds, too).

If you can't shoot, neither one is going to make the difference.

So, for deer hunting, why would anyone ever use anything other than the .223?

That's a great question......................variety is my guess.

just for the sake of throwing it out there, I brought my .223 into the field once this year ... shot a spike whitetail buck at about 135 yards ... drilled it directly in the shoulder with a 62g TSX ... that buck "ran" about 10 yards, if that ...

the compare/contrast starts when I mention that I have since shot three whitetail doe, all over 100lbs, with my .243 using the 85g TSX ... those shots ranged from about 65 yards to 185 yards ... The two doe I shot in the shoulders (and I do mean directly in the shoulders) both 'ran' further than the spike buck did ... about 20 yards each ... The third (at 185 yards) I shot in the neck about 4" behind where the spine and skull meet ... anyway, regarding the three shoulder-shot deer, does that mean the .223 is better than the .243 because it dropped the buck faster?

All I'm saying is, what I've been saying all along ... and is the same thing that others I consider "in the know from real experience" ... and that is, place the [bleep]' bullet where it goes, and watch the animal die ...

As to why or why not use nothing more than a .223 on deer ... who the hell knows? Not only can I say I don't care, but it also doesn't matter ...

last time I checked, dead is dead, regardless of the size of the exit wound ...

So why the 7mm-08? Was that a random selection or were there other factors that influenced your decision.

OCC ... To be perfectly honest, I have no other reason than that I found a good deal on an LVSF 7mm08 and really like the rifle package. And if I had a 223 set up in a sporter type package (rather than the clunky heavy setups that both of my 223s are), I would have no problem toting it around and shooting 200lb+ WT bucks with the same confidence as the 7mm08 ...

Because they can. Or, because they have to (state law mandate). Or, because they want to.

Pretty damned simple, really.

Why did I grab my .300wsm 90% of the time this past season? Hell, I don't know. I'm spending more and more time with my Little Sky in .260 right now. Wanna take bets on what I grab 90% of the time next year?

I've got a Little Sky in .223 on order. If I spent enough time behind it I'm sure I'd be as confident with it as I would with any of my other rifles. Drill the shoulders.....

Some of my relatives feel I'm "undergunned" when I use my .308. Old habits die hard.


George

Got a Kimber Montana .223 on order, and NC allows it. VA has a bill pending to re-authorize .22 centerfires for deer season.

Got 53 gr. TSXs, already moly'd up.

I'm not set up to moly, so mine will have to be run nekkid.

We'll have to see if we can link up this year and determine whether it makes a difference.

George

Could work on this end. And, we have deer down here.............

It's not that we don't have deer, it's just.....

Yeah, south is probably better .

George

Hey, what's the temp up there tonight anyway?

I would tend to head out with a couple hundred 223 rounds and the Bumblebee on any given day in Alaska and return with nothing but empties. Tis nothing to shoot a few hundred rounds at a time, day after day with the 223AI, more so than say the 300 Roy.

Another wonderful thing is being able to watch the entire show unfold through the scope, almost zero recoil affords that.

Below zero, but not as cold as other parts of the country. Just threw some more oak in the boiler outside. Let the mercury drop, it's just a few extra sticks of wood.

It's gonna be colder tomorrow and I'm going ice-fishing on the bay.

George

Practice breeds skill and confidence, negating the need for the upper extremes.

My initial thought was to get an identical platform in the .223 for practice, but it could easily become a go-to killing machine.

George

And it has, LOTS of bullets sent down that tube. I trust it, or more importantly, me with it more than any rifle I own. I'd not want to be a thing with me wondering around with the 'Bee.

I'd not mind shooting deer with a .223, but it isn't legal here. Probably for the better, in all honesty, because I don't trust lots of guys I meet to pick a heavily constructed bullet for the .24s let alone their .22s. I've actually seen guys hunt mule deer with 58gr VMAXs in rifles they haven't fired in years.

Stupid always finds a way.

there ... now your statement is +P ... (grin)

Respectfully, I suspect that less than 1% of deer hunters made their cartridge selection based on your criteria.

I can and do because I can and want to, can't give a tinker's damn about the other 99% but I do know it works and works well.

I've also stated I think a 357 Magnum in a rifle is plenty of deer, but never said it was perfect for shooting mule deer at 623.748 yards in a 47mph crosswind.

I enjoy getting close and for that can't think of much of anything that don't work on deer, avoiding extremes.

Ain't it so!

Steely ... what are you doing this weekend? I'm going to be at the camp, and you're welcome to come along ...

Damn, that sounds TEMPTING, especially with the colder weather. I'm currently in VA and will be back in LA around midnight tomorrow. Promised someone a fishing trip on Sunday.

How's the 7mm-08AI treating ya? Ever do any squirrel/rabbit hunting up that way after deer ends?

the 7mm-08AI remains unfinished, as I've still not sent it back to the smith to fix the threads in the magazine tab screw hole in the action ...

I've been hunting with my .243, .45-70, and my bow ...

I'll have to call you tomorrow to discuss ... unless you call me first ...

I left my phone in LA, so it would be Saturday.

just call me whenever you get back to your phone ...

Roger, even MIDNIGHT Friday.........grin

Have you checked your messages?

God no, not in the past week, if she's pregnant again it weren't me...............grin

Hung with Paul some today, he said HEY!

Hope you two were planning a trip up North........grin.

Simply put, a .223 in the hands of someone who practices and is a good shot, is far more capable of making critters dead than a .30-06 in the hands of someone who's a [bleep] shot, and you can take that to the bank!

Going out on a limb, are we? No one disputes that.

Then what are we disputing, varying degrees of dead?

Gratuitous insults aside, what appears to be in dispute is whether there is any 'grey' between the 'black and white' views of hunters as 'good' shots or crappy shots. Further, in the case the existence of a 'adequate' shot, does a larger bullet travelling just as fast (e.g. .30-06 vs. .223) provide any 'margin for error' in the case of a slightly less than ideal (but not very bad) shot location on a deer. I've only see one person claiming that the .223 'couldn't' reliably take a deer (Mr. Tumbling after 100 yards). Otherwise the .223 (proper bullet selection and spin to stabilize it assumed) would seem to be a 'death ray' compared to a bow for instance.

Lol what a thread... dead is dead is dead. They both work in their own respects. You guys have too much free time

I love Rob's Living Dead Girl.

He shoots a .270...grin

Define too much time? Just because one might have 'more' free time don't mean his time is less important............grin

Wait till we bring up the Hornet................whoops.

Who is this irresistible creature who has an insatiable love for the dead....

Yep!


I'm gonna throw it in and ROCK OUT man!

That somehow the .223 is a better deer round than the 30-06. I didn't start the thread and understand the subjective nature of the word 'better'. I just felt like the onus should be on the ones that claim that it is. I'm enjoying the banter as well. Can't hunt 'til tomorrow.

I DO have too much time!

Can't get mo dead than dead. I've had deer go further when hit the same with a 300 Savage and 35 Whelen than I have with a 223. Don't make the others bad or wrong, but there are LOTS of equals when it comes to killing deer, sans extremes.

Alright. Lets move on over to the 270 thread!

I am sorry I started it someone else will have to do the "is the 22 Hornet better than the 30-06 on deer" thread

How about the .17HMR on coyotes?....

What do you attribute that observed difference to? Is it superior 'performance' of the .223 bullet in the internal damage it inflicts? Superior shot location using the .223? A combination of the two? Or is it just one of those 'random' deals, where otherwise 'identical' deer are hit in effectively the same location with the same bullet and one DRT's while the other runs 100 yards before 'realizing' it's already dead?

Someone already started a .223 vs. .308 thread, although that wasn't necessarily their intention.

Deer guns tend to differ by region.

If I were shooting across a canyon, at a rutted out mulie buck, I would not want my 223. Hell...I would not opt for my 223 if I were shooting at a 'yote across a canyon either, I would prefer my 22-250AI, or 243.

I shot four deer this year with a .375 but had I a scoped .223 on hand I would have been as comfortable with it.