This subject has probably been beat to death on various forums, but what say the 'Fire? Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
I have cleanly killed truck loads of deer with 222,223 and 220 swift. All loaded with a 53gr Barnes. All were inside of 200 yds. As stated in above posts it may not be ideal. But dammit it works well.
One of the biggest grizzlies ever killed was shot by an Indian woman using a 22 LR. Just because a cartridge will kill an animal doesn't mean that it's ideal. I've killed deer with the 223, but why use it when there are far better choices.
There isn't a whitetail alive that cannot be killed with a .223/5.56. But that doesn't make it a good deer round. Will it work? Yes, if you have a calm animal standing perfectly broadside. For many people that only hunt out of blinds or stands that is the sort of shot they get but I am a still hunter and walk my deer down. I can't plan of a perfect shot at a known range. My deer might be 30 yards away or he may be 300 yards away and he could be broadside, facing away, facing towards me or moving and there may be a canyon between us. For my money's worth I want a heavier bullet at 2900 fps at the muzzle.
Why use something barely adequate (if That) when a 243 or other 6mm will do it better?
I remember when the 243 was new and considered "barely adequate".
I have two Valmet 12ga/rifle combos, one in 222 and one in 308. I carry the 308 when after deer and birds together. There is no substitute for some knockdown power.
This subject has probably been beat to death on various forums, but what say the 'Fire? Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
Whitetails like grizzlies have evolved over time. To take down an adult whitetail buck you will have to have at minimum a 150 grain bullet traveling at 3550fps at impact. Yea I know so and so has killed them with the ole 06 for years and never had any trouble. Times are changing men , get you a fire breathing magnum dragon.
I have taken an awful lot of deer and hogs with it out to 250. It runs out of steam further out... You can kill a deer (or hog) with just about any caliber as long as YOU make the correct shot placement.
NO BULLET or CALIBER will make up for a poorly placed shot.
I have taken an awful lot of deer and hogs with it out to 250. It runs out of steam further out... You can kill a deer (or hog) with just about any caliber as long as YOU make the correct shot placement.
NO BULLET or CALIBER will make up for a poorly placed shot.
My fellow South Carolinian is correct. The first deer I killed with a rifle, in 1967 was drt at 200 yards with a Norma 50 grain factory loaded.222. The most recent deer I killed with a 22Cf was a large wt buck at 275 -300 yards with a 65 grain SGK. It’s not what you shoot them with, it’s how you shoot them. I am not so desperate to kill an animal that I blast away with Hail Mary shots at running deer in the woods. I’ve seen plenty of deer wounded and lost by those who do, usually excited kids shooting too much rifle. Just about any reasonable.223 load will work just fine.
If you’ve never done it before then no, it isn’t near big enough. If you have then sure, it’ll kill deer or even bigger stuff further than the stated range and with “worse” bullets as well. At least this is what you will generally glean from answers to this type question here on the fire.
There hasn’t been a deer born I’d be afraid to shoot with a 223 at 250 yards, I wouldn’t go out of my way to use a super hard bullet either. If you can shoot a 223 can be a pretty big gun.
Yes. Proven it too many times to myself to say other wise. Dropped a nice 9 point and a big 6 point seconds apart one evening. Those two bucks died way too quickly to say a 223 isn’t enough gun.
Legally culled large numbers of deer (does) over the years with a 222. We kept shots inside 100 yards and 95% of the shots were high neck. DRT on pretty much every shot.
One of the biggest grizzlies ever killed was shot by an Indian woman using a 22 LR. Just because a cartridge will kill an animal doesn't mean that it's ideal. I've killed deer with the 223, but why use it when there are far better choices.
I had great luck with the Fusion 62gr factory from a Ruger Ranch Rifle. Most shots were well within 100 yards, 2 were at moat 150 yards. None made it far.
Yes. I'd use one way past 250, and I wouldn't use a barnes...ever
Why not a Barnes?
They aren't needed. Just like bonded bullets aren't needed.
But by all means if you want a narrow wound channel use a barnes.
Gotcha. I wish Hornady made the SST bullet in .223 (.224 for the picky ones). Is there another manufacturer's equivalent of the SST bullet in .223?
55 grain Sierra Gameking.
Get past 200 and a V-Max is wicked medicine. Seen it used from a Swift at about 350. No exit but bruised the opposite side of a ribcage on a large doe. No forward steps taken, jusy about 6 sideways steps and done.
Personally I wouldn't be the least bit afraid of a 55 grain Ballistic Tip either.
My only objection to the 223 is guys who use spray n pray with an AR15 or similar. Hunters here aren't those guys and are responsible sportsmen who do it right. My garden variety Stag Arms surprised the h@ll out of me right out of the box, it shot so tight, better groups than several of my OK bolt guns.
Unfortunately I have seen two different Bozos fire off five faster then my fingers move, then do it all over again at gut shot Bambis. I'm convinced these are the ones who give the 223 a bad rap.
My question is, with so many better choices, Why? If that's all you have, and can't afford to buy anything else, then I understand, but it sure wouldn't even make my top 20.
They work. I've shot quite a few in Wva and on kill permits in Virginia. 223 , 22-250 and 223 WSSM i like the 50 gr Vmax in 223 and think archery type shots behind the shoulder broadside. 22-250 and 223 wssm i use a tougher 55 or 60 gr softpoint
Yesterday afternoon, I had 8-9 hogs on two feeders. Some were 200 yards and behind some brush and most were at 297 yards. I shot one shoat at 40 feet and two 100lb + sows at 297. One of the farthest ones went 30 feet. The others were DRT. Ruger American Pred with 16" bbl shooting 62gr Gold Dot Factory at 2743 fps muzzle velocity.
I start my grandkids on a cut down savage axis .223 for the deer here on the farm. Shots are max 50 yards. Ammo is factory win power points 62gr I believe. Broadside through the lungs. Never lost a deer. After the first or second year they graduate to a cut down rem 700 in 243 win. I don’t let them hunt over fields until they move up to the 243.
There are a lot of deer hunters in our area using Earschplittenloudenboomer elephant guns attempting to murder a <150lb animal. Watch them zero that thing, flinching and jerking out a large pie plate sized group.
I'd say a .223 with a decent bullet that the average shooter can get much better hits with might be a better choice.
Killed two doe's with 69gr SMK's. Both shot high in the neck and both fell in their tracks. Hey it was all I had at the time. I was spending all my money on match shooting!
You gonna murder more deer after retirement? I said I was when I stopped working but it seems I put off all manor of tasks til I had "time", I've actually hunted less after retiring....
There are a lot of deer hunters in our area using Earschplittenloudenboomer elephant guns attempting to murder a <150lb animal. Watch them zero that thing, flinching and jerking out a large pie plate sized group.
I'd say a .223 with a decent bullet that the average shooter can get much better hits with might be a better choice.
Killed two doe's with 69gr SMK's. Both shot high in the neck and both fell in their tracks. Hey it was all I had at the time. I was spending all my money on match shooting!
You gonna murder more deer after retirement? I said I was when I stopped working but it seems I put off all manor of tasks til I had "time", I've actually hunted less after retiring....
I'm going to murder deer, trap coyotes, and catch fish.
There are a lot of deer hunters in our area using Earschplittenloudenboomer elephant guns attempting to murder a <150lb animal. Watch them zero that thing, flinching and jerking out a large pie plate sized group.
I'd say a .223 with a decent bullet that the average shooter can get much better hits with might be a better choice.
Killed two doe's with 69gr SMK's. Both shot high in the neck and both fell in their tracks. Hey it was all I had at the time. I was spending all my money on match shooting!
You gonna murder more deer after retirement? I said I was when I stopped working but it seems I put off all manor of tasks til I had "time", I've actually hunted less after retiring....
I'm going to murder deer, trap coyotes, and catch fish.
Alot of it is what type of conditions one hunts in, where I hunt I have to make sure of the shortest run as possible, preferably a quick drop. If it runs 100yds it's already in a swamp and lost. Plus the condition a person is in, if you are old and can't walk good enough to track, and your shot is gonna be under 50yds, DRT is needed. So I use a .30 or larger. I would use my 22-250 or 233 in open country.
I had great luck with the Fusion 62gr factory from a Ruger Ranch Rifle. Most shots were well within 100 yards, 2 were at moat 150 yards. None made it far.
That is in oustanding deer bullet. When my grandkids haven't had my handloads, they have used that bullet. They usually get pass-throughs.
This subject has probably been beat to death on various forums, but what say the 'Fire? Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
The 223 will certainly kill a deer. My only problem with it, is that the hole is pretty small, and the blood trail is small. In actual practice, this has not been a problem, though. My wife has shot 2 small deer, and they were dead within 5 yards, and 25 yards, respectively. Tracking was not necessary. Both center lung shot, one at 81 yards, the other at 35 yards. The first was with a 55gr Fiocchi soft point, the other with a 62 gr. TSX. The 55gr did not exit.
A 223 might not "blow their lungs out" but It'll tear a hole in their lungs.
55gr Hornady, 60gr Partition, 64gr Nosler Bonded, 62 TTSX have all worked for me. They work on Antelope too.
My current favorite is a 62gr Federal Open Tip Match ,MK 318, It's their barrier blind bullet that looks like a Trophy Bonded when sectioned. These are not bonded of course but it doesn't seem to matter. I bought a bunch on clearance and they work fine too.
Looking around the predator hunting sights and threads and there are a steady stream of post looking for bigger and better bullets for killing coyote with the 223 because shooters are getting too many runners and spinners, surprisingly it doesn't not seem to be an issue with shooters of 222 Rem, 204's, 221 FB's, even the 17's. So if a 223 Rem or 223 shooter find the 223 problematic on coyotes why does it become an effective round on game weighing 4-8 time more.
I'm old enough to use a 243 on deer when it was considered marginal and found it so. But it was at the beginning of it's use and American arms companies had little experience making 6mm bullets for big game and it was bullet performance that made it marginal.
I think most people who post on predator sites talking about needing better bullets to kill coyotes with a 223 are rookies who probably can’t shoot. Guys who shoot Fireballs and 17s are usually loonies who load and shoot and are probably more serious hunters. I’ve never had issues killing a coyote with even rimfires, but I shoot a lot and know how, when, and where to shoot an animal.
If a bullet will consistently give 12-14” of straight line penetration while producing a 2” diameter wound it’s plenty adequate for shooting deer, regardless of what it’s shot out of. And a plain old 55gr Hornady spire point out of a 223 will give exactly that type of performance.
Something tells me many of those complaining about bullet performance out of a .223 are those who don’t own anything but an AR and are shooting cheap, bull pack FMJs. The Kid is also probably right that they’re also those who can’t shoot.
I have had zero issues killing ‘yotes with a .223, nor deer for that matter unless I make a poor hit, which has happened.
Poor hits are part of the problem, a poor hit with a cartridge that passes through a deer is usually recoverable as there is double the chance of there being a discernable blood trail. A small bore bullet leave a very small entrance and no exit and even very little evidence of being hit. I've had 243 100gr Federals(1969) not open and pass completely through a deer and the deer kept right on walking never showing a sign of being hit. I followed up on the shot to see where the deer were headed and found the deer twenty yards into the woods, I was dumfounded and actually had to feel the underside of a leg to realize it was warm and the deer I shot at. The bullet passed through the deer cutting an artery and the body cavity filled with blood leaving no trail or even spots in the snow. Now I find a 100gr .257 NPT to be the minimum I'll hunt medium game with. I'll save the small bores for predators and varmints.
I have gut shot a deer with a 35 Whelen 200gr RN and it left a softball sized exit and a very sick deer that was easily recoverable but did take a second shot to finish. Again, very little evidence of being hit other than hair and stomach contents spread across the forest floor. Same shot with a 223 would have been a lost deer in my opinion.
My thought is everybody wants a "tough" bullet in small calibers. No thanks.
The tougher, the smaller expanded diameter. Take a reasonably soft bullet and killing deer with a 22 caliber is no issue.
We are talking a 250# animal and that's on some of the larger bucks, not exactly a big critter.
Like has been stated before, this is why Partitions are such excellent killers, a very soft front end that expands pretty violently but a back end that gives an exit for blood trails if needed.
15 years ago I got on the 22-250 with 60 grain Partition kick. No telling how many deer I shot in 3 or 4 seasons as we hunted a suburban area where seeing 15 deer a day was common.
No issues killing and I can actually only recall 2 runners which were easily found. Both were killed in heavy brush.
Lung or shoulder shot deer.
In the 223 a regular soft point is all that's needed.
I still prefer a 55 grain Gameking in the 223 for deer.
The third biggest buck on my wall was killed back in 1993 with a Remington 788 .222 and a handloaded 50 gr. Nosler solid base. He was quartering away at 125 yards and dropped at the shot. The bullet hit at the last rib on the left side and the little solid base was recovered from the right shoulder. His lungs looked like grape jelly. He field dressed 172 lbs.. Since then a bunch have fallen to my .223's firing 55 gr. Nosler solid base, 55 gr. Hornady sp, 55 gr. Winchester sp and 65 gr. Sierra Gameking btsp.. No problem or complaints with the performance of any of them.
I always have used 55gr Hornady sp, well really the bullets are seconds that look like the Hornady 55gr sp. This year I've been working on a Barnes 55gr ttsx load for my .223's I'd like to stretch my range out to 500yds. Using a 8+lb rifle, shooting off a good rest you can see brains and eyes explode. Using the high shoulder - neck shot you can see the hair fly and body caving in on impact. Never could see any of that shooting a .243 or larger caliber rifle. IMO bullet placement trumps everything else when it comes to killing power.
I always have used 55gr Hornady sp, well really the bullets are seconds that look like the Hornady 55gr sp. This year I've been working on a Barnes 55gr ttsx load for my .223's I'd like to stretch my range out to 500yds. Using a 8+lb rifle, shooting off a good rest you can see brains and eyes explode. Using the high shoulder - neck shot you can see the hair fly and body caving in on impact. Never could see any of that shooting a .243 or larger caliber rifle. IMO bullet placement trumps everything else when it comes to killing power.
My preferred load! I’ve posted a pic on here 1/2 dozen times of my sons deer he heart shot. The heart looked like a slinky. Mulie…shot at 98 yards. It’s the only one we’ve shot that ran at all after the shot. Ram 40yds downhill pouring blood out
.223 Rem with the 70 gr. Barnes has served me well on several whitetail. Keep your shots at 300 yards or under, it'll do the trick. Further the expansion may be lukewarm.
I’ve shot about 10 deer with 223 and Sierra 1365’s. One ran maybe 85 yards. The rest were either bang flops or at most 25-30 yards death sprints (heart/lung shots). Those deer were all shot in open fields at maybe 75-225yards… if I was hunting in the woods id want a bigger caliber that left a good blood trail in case my shot wasn’t the best. As others have mentioned…it is a lot more about where you hit them than with what.
My buddy, Bob, gave me a lot of good advice when I started writing for the outdoors. One of his gems was as follows: "Keep everything you write in a file drawer. After 8 years, you'll never have to write anything new. Nothing changes."
I took his advice, only I put all my past work up on a weblog. He was right. Nothing changes. In fact, a few years ago, I started a feature over in the left sidebar of my weblog: On This Day.
I think I asked this question for the first time back on shooters.com. It was the demise of this platform that brought me along with a bunch of other refugees to this august forum. I don't have the actual text of this thread at hand, but I asked the same very question and I was soundly trounced for trying to perform a "stunt" on a live animal. I did get some sound advice, and I had a load worked up for my Mini-14. However, I started having good luck with my 30-somethings, and the project slipped. Since then, I've acquired several .223 REM rifles including a minty Savage 325.
Over the intervening 2+ decades I've seen the question of .223 REM on deer slowly migrate from a "stunt" to a "finesse round" to finally having enough acceptance that it has become a matter of personal taste. Me? I still have a 63 grain Winchester PP load cooked up. I just find that I still have a mountain of other projects to test, and .223 REM falls by the wayside. I don't know what will someday push me over the threshold.
I'm like that kid on the side of the pool with his toes over the edge and his hands arching up over his head stuck in. He just can't make the first dive.
I have taken whitetail and antelope with the 223 using the 60 grain nosler partition and the 55 grain sierra game changer. Put the shot in the vitals and it works fine, as do most other centerfire rounds.
I wont be acquiring one for that specific use but I wouldn't hesitate to hunt deer with a .223 if I was somewhere without my deer rifles and someone handed me one to use.
This nonsense has been discussed beyond reason. Most of the people that endorse the 223 and small calibers for game will be singing a different tune when you ask them about personal defense.
How is it that small calibers and cartridges are such great game killers, but you need a canon to kill a human in a self defense scenario?
I'm kind of the opposite. I want a .223/5.56 with expanding bullets in a defensive scenario due to the ease of hits, effectiveness, and firepower on hand. I'd rather have .25cal or more for dedicated deer hunting, mainly due to better blood trails. With that being said, I have killed deer and hogs with the 223 and it will get the job done at reasonable ranges with bullets matched to the impact velocity. It's not my first choice when I head out on a hunt around thick cover, but isn't terrible for targets of opportunity.
This nonsense has been discussed beyond reason. Most of the people that endorse the 223 and small calibers for game will be singing a different tune when you ask them about personal defense.
How is it that small calibers and cartridges are such great game killers, but you need a canon to kill a human in a self defense scenario?
This nonsense has been discussed beyond reason. Most of the people that endorse the 223 and small calibers for game will be singing a different tune when you ask them about personal defense.
How is it that small calibers and cartridges are such great game killers, but you need a canon to kill a human in a self defense scenario?
In my experience - I usually hear the opposite.
"Why can I engage and kill terrorists who go 200lbs with a 223 but a 120-140 lb deer on the hoof is suddenly too much?" (disregard bullet construction differences in the 2 scenarios)
I don't know the answer- would I hesitate to shoot a deer if all I had in my hands was a 223 with proper bullets? Nope. Would I generally select a 223? Nope. For me there's a difference between "prefer" and "works".
This nonsense has been discussed beyond reason. Most of the people that endorse the 223 and small calibers for game will be singing a different tune when you ask them about personal defense.
How is it that small calibers and cartridges are such great game killers, but you need a canon to kill a human in a self defense scenario?
In my experience - I usually hear the opposite.
"Why can I engage and kill terrorists who go 200lbs with a 223 but a 120-140 lb deer on the hoof is suddenly too much?" (disregard bullet construction differences in the 2 scenarios)
I don't know the answer- would I hesitate to shoot a deer if all I had in my hands was a 223 with proper bullets? Nope. Would I generally select a 223? Nope. For me there's a difference between "prefer" and "works".
The purpose for a cartridge in war is to wound, not kill. When you wound a soldier, you take 2 or 3 out of the battle as they attend to the wounded soldier. Kill one and you only lose one. It may not sound like good logic, but that is the theory of fighting a war. We are not fighting a war with deer.
In fairness,her "understanding" of Ballistics is fhuqking HILARIOUS and her Imagination and Pretend routinely take her to places that don't exist. Hint.
We're also not talking just FMJ fighting ammo here.
Having owned a couple of AR10 rifles in .308, I can tell you that I'd rather fight with a 5.56 with expanding ammo than a 7.62, unless you are maybe talking about some very long distances or armor. Self/home defense against criminals? An expanding 5.56 in a torso that's only 5-10 inches deep is going to be bad news, like shooting a broadside yearling deer. or an 80lb pig. Not sure a .30cal is making any difference there, except being harder to shoot and toting less ammo.
From first hand experience I know a 40 grain Ballistic Tip launched at 223 speeds will penetrate to a doe whitetail's tenderloin when shot head-on in the chest, killing her most assuredly.
My dad used to keep a couple of old pawn-shop .22 centerfires on a portable bench on his front porch, ready to go. It would be coyotes, pigs, or whatever that came out in his field and a 45-55gr V-max or HP in the lungs would shut stuff down pretty quickly, with nothing going more than 30-40yds. They might not bleed much, but they died dang fast, often right on the spot. FMJs and green tips from an AR in the same role? More stuff ran off to never be found. Dirt would fly off a pig's lungs but you'd often not locate a body. Bullet construction and impact velocity matter.
Thus far bullet recommendations have covered the gamut from copper solids, to pointed soft points, to ballistic tips (varmint bullets?). Who knows.... I've got some 60gr Nosler Partitions I'm going to try. If they group well I will try them on some deer this season.
I agree with Shrap. This .223 bullshit is like the 6.5 creed. I have shot game and a lot of it with /22 caliber rifles. But I have done it carefully, and realize for general hunting I want a larger caliber. A deer shot at sundown, doesn't give you much time to follow its trail.. I want something large with more bullet wt. and diameter. I don't shoot my deer over food plots or from box blinds. For those that do, I know it will work. But I still prefer a tradition deer rifle for my hunting.
Why not? I have shot a quite a few with just the Hornady 55 sp. Then the 65gr Serria GK. My latest is a 75gr Hornady BTHP. If you think rib shots get yer knife out. If you pray n spray at running deer that are out of range stay at home.
This nonsense has been discussed beyond reason. Most of the people that endorse the 223 and small calibers for game will be singing a different tune when you ask them about personal defense.
How is it that small calibers and cartridges are such great game killers, but you need a canon to kill a human in a self defense scenario?
In my experience - I usually hear the opposite.
"Why can I engage and kill terrorists who go 200lbs with a 223 but a 120-140 lb deer on the hoof is suddenly too much?" (disregard bullet construction differences in the 2 scenarios)
I don't know the answer- would I hesitate to shoot a deer if all I had in my hands was a 223 with proper bullets? Nope. Would I generally select a 223? Nope. For me there's a difference between "prefer" and "works".
The purpose for a cartridge in war is to wound, not kill. When you wound a soldier, you take 2 or 3 out of the battle as they attend to the wounded soldier. Kill one and you only lose one. It may not sound like good logic, but that is the theory of fighting a war. We are not fighting a war with deer.
And most soldiers shot in war with a 5.56 are shot with an FMJ not a good soft point game bullet.
Thus far bullet recommendations have covered the gamut from copper solids, to pointed soft points, to ballistic tips (varmint bullets?). Who knows.... I've got some 60gr Nosler Partitions I'm going to try. If they group well I will try them on some deer this season.
They will work/kill just fine.
Not much "try" to it. Killed a slug of deer in a half assed urban area over a 3 or 4 season span with em.
This nonsense has been discussed beyond reason. Most of the people that endorse the 223 and small calibers for game will be singing a different tune when you ask them about personal defense.
How is it that small calibers and cartridges are such great game killers, but you need a canon to kill a human in a self defense scenario?
In my experience - I usually hear the opposite.
"Why can I engage and kill terrorists who go 200lbs with a 223 but a 120-140 lb deer on the hoof is suddenly too much?" (disregard bullet construction differences in the 2 scenarios)
I don't know the answer- would I hesitate to shoot a deer if all I had in my hands was a 223 with proper bullets? Nope. Would I generally select a 223? Nope. For me there's a difference between "prefer" and "works".
The purpose for a cartridge in war is to wound, not kill. When you wound a soldier, you take 2 or 3 out of the battle as they attend to the wounded soldier. Kill one and you only lose one. It may not sound like good logic, but that is the theory of fighting a war. We are not fighting a war with deer.
And most soldiers shot in war with a 5.56 are shot with an FMJ not a good soft point game bullet.
I can tell you once we switched to the 77 SMK in the early 2000’s that it was a game changer on putting folks on their ass. We weren’t concerned with wounding folks as much as killing them dead so they couldn’t make us dead.
This nonsense has been discussed beyond reason. Most of the people that endorse the 223 and small calibers for game will be singing a different tune when you ask them about personal defense.
How is it that small calibers and cartridges are such great game killers, but you need a canon to kill a human in a self defense scenario?
In my experience - I usually hear the opposite.
"Why can I engage and kill terrorists who go 200lbs with a 223 but a 120-140 lb deer on the hoof is suddenly too much?" (disregard bullet construction differences in the 2 scenarios)
I don't know the answer- would I hesitate to shoot a deer if all I had in my hands was a 223 with proper bullets? Nope. Would I generally select a 223? Nope. For me there's a difference between "prefer" and "works".
The purpose for a cartridge in war is to wound, not kill. When you wound a soldier, you take 2 or 3 out of the battle as they attend to the wounded soldier. Kill one and you only lose one. It may not sound like good logic, but that is the theory of fighting a war. We are not fighting a war with deer.
And most soldiers shot in war with a 5.56 are shot with an FMJ not a good soft point game bullet.
I can tell you once we switched to the 77 SMK in the early 2000’s that it was a game changer on putting folks on their ass. We weren’t concerned with wounding folks as much as killing them dead so they couldn’t make us dead.
Since I live in VA and we can’t use 22 cal centerfires for deer, I will have to take out my much more powerful 300 blk bolt action ruger American ranch. It does very well with the 110 gr Barnes at 2350 fps.
I just finished up sighting in 3 rifles today for an upcoming pronghorn hunt .223, .223 AI, and 22-250. 88 eldm’s in the 223 AI, 75 gr Gold Dots in the .223 and 22-250. I’d shoot any deer or antelope that’s ever lived with any of the three.
Yeah, what Hanco said, with good designed bullets, it is decent. And of course the faster .22 centerfires are better than .223 is.
Faster can be a double edged sword, IMO. Proper bullet is key, but judging by this thread, there are many good ones out there. Still, you need the right twist for many and the standard 1-7/9 in a 223 vs a 1:14 in a 22-250 could be critical.
I like the 70 Speer semi-spitzer in my 223. Performance is the same from muzzle to 200 yards. Complete pass through and good expansion.
Thus far bullet recommendations have covered the gamut from copper solids, to pointed soft points, to ballistic tips (varmint bullets?). Who knows.... I've got some 60gr Nosler Partitions I'm going to try. If they group well I will try them on some deer this season.
Those bullets will NOT disappoint. Those, Fusions and Nosler Bonded bullets aren't sexy, but they damn sure get the job done.
LOL, 223 Greenhorn here Sir, that said, and in your honor, i had gun bud find and order me a Ruger American Predator 8 twist 223, i have rings and spare 2.5-8 and 6.5-20 Leupold scopes, 62gr Bearclaws and 64gr Nosler Bonded's at 3100+ fps from the 22" barrel would have to do a real bangup job on deer and pigs this side of 250 yards, i intend to find out this season.
LOL, 223 Greenhorn here Sir, that said, and in your honor, i had gun bud find and order me a Ruger American Predator 8 twist 223, i have rings and spare 2.5-8 and 6.5-20 Leupold scopes, 62gr Bearclaws and 64gr Nosler Bonded's at 3100+ fps from the 22" barrel would have to do a real bangup job on deer and pigs this side of 250 yards, i intend to find out this season.
It'll work Fo'Sho' and it doesnt take a handful of Kingsford briquets to load each round, like your other guns!
That bonded bullet DOES work. It is a wrecking ball. Ingwe has more experience than I do with it. It is seriously nasty. A deep penetrator that is devastating on tissue.
I've not got the 64 grain Bonded bullet to shoot well in two of my 223's - I have not tried it in my 223 that set up for varmints. I ordered some 65 Partitions which have not shown up yet.
LOL, 223 Greenhorn here Sir, that said, and in your honor, i had gun bud find and order me a Ruger American Predator 8 twist 223, i have rings and spare 2.5-8 and 6.5-20 Leupold scopes, 62gr Bearclaws and 64gr Nosler Bonded's at 3100+ fps from the 22" barrel would have to do a real bangup job on deer and pigs this side of 250 yards, i intend to find out this season.
It'll work Fo'Sho' and it doesnt take a handful of Kingsford briquets to load each round, like your other guns!
Word ; ] 26gr CFE-223 to the rescue, came across 800 rounds of new LC match brass last year, loaded up 300 62gr TBBC and 500 64gr Nosler's, as my retarded ass does, was running them through Wifes 223 house guns by hand and a couple didn't want to chamber, wont run that for her, she'll just have to use the factory Federal XM556FBIT3M loads, bud gave me 5 cases of those 10 years ago, she's GTG with those, same bullet as my handloads, but now here i sat with 800 rounds of great hand loaded ammo, remembering what all you've done with 223 made the choice easy, but a bolt rifle i can shoot them in, perfect excuse!
LOL, 223 Greenhorn here Sir, that said, and in your honor, i had gun bud find and order me a Ruger American Predator 8 twist 223, i have rings and spare 2.5-8 and 6.5-20 Leupold scopes, 62gr Bearclaws and 64gr Nosler Bonded's at 3100+ fps from the 22" barrel would have to do a real bangup job on deer and pigs this side of 250 yards, i intend to find out this season.
It'll work Fo'Sho' and it doesnt take a handful of Kingsford briquets to load each round, like your other guns!
Word ; ] 26gr CFE-223 to the rescue, came across 800 rounds of new LC match brass last year, loaded up 300 62gr TBBC and 500 64gr Nosler's, as my retarded ass does, was running them through Wifes 223 house guns by hand and a couple didn't want to chamber, wont run that for her, she'll just have to use the factory Federal XM556BCT3 loads, bud gave me 5 cases of those 10 years ago, she's GTG with those, same bullet as my handloads, but now here i sat with 800 rounds of great hand loaded ammo, remembering what all you've done with 223 made the choice easy, but a bolt rifle i can shoot them in, perfect excuse!
Big B, 8 twist should spin those 77gr STMK's, no?
Easily and all day long. I know there are better, meaning more sleek 75-80 grain bullets, but as far as tooling up the Dillon and churning out 1000 at a rip there isn't a better one for me. I use 26.5 grains of LVR, CCI450's and LC range brass for my stuff and man, it shoots. About 2700'ish or a bit more from 16-18" uppers and 2800 from 20" bolt guns. I am sure I could do faster, but with the way they fly I don't mess with the charge bar on the Dillon.
That'll work, sounds great Big B, Thanks Man, those little bonded boogers of mine [62-64gr] should run 3100 from 22" Ruger bolt barrel, got pics of a monster wild sow that needs one of those in the shoulder ; ]
That'll work, sounds great Big B, Thanks Man, those little bonded boogers of mine [62-64gr] should run 3100 from 22" Ruger bolt barrel, got pics of a monster wild sow that needs one of those in the shoulder ; ]
They are definitely a different animal with some good bullets in them. I'd not be happy, but I could do alot of stuff with a 62 grain TTSX as well. That's about my second favorite 224 bullet.
Yes Sir, if i had not ran into these 62-64gr bonded bullets the 62gr TSX/TTSX would have been the exact bullet i would have loaded, it's a fuggin buzzsaw!
I've not got the 64 grain Bonded bullet to shoot well in two of my 223's - I have not tried it in my 223 that set up for varmints. I ordered some 65 Partitions which have not shown up yet.
"Well" is relative. I won't be showing pics of my 3 shot groups with them, but down here where a 100 yard shot is about as long as you'll get, a 1.5 inch group is more than adequate.
There hasn’t been a deer born I’d be afraid to shoot with a 223 at 250 yards, I wouldn’t go out of my way to use a super hard bullet either. If you can shoot a 223 can be a pretty big gun.
Yep. Don't care if it's a 85# doe in Texas or a 300# buck in Saskatchewan.
I've not got the 64 grain Bonded bullet to shoot well in two of my 223's - I have not tried it in my 223 that set up for varmints. I ordered some 65 Partitions which have not shown up yet.
"Well" is relative. I won't be showing pics of my 3 shot groups with them, but down here where a 100 yard shot is about as long as you'll get, a 1.5 inch group is more than adequate.
About 6 MOA in one and 4 MOA in the other. I suspect the twist is the problem.
On the other end a 300 Winchester mag too much for killing a deer?
I shot a couple of does with the 300 one year expecting long range (for me) shots. The first doe was about 20 feet. The second was much closer. It seemed to work ok. Didn’t retrieve the bullet so I’m not sure. 😬
The only time I would deer hunt with a 223/556 is if I had nothing else to use.
Will it work? I’m sure it would. However, I believe there are far better options.
Originally Posted by vabowhntr
Since I live in VA and we can’t use 22 cal centerfires for deer, I will have to take out my much more powerful 300 blk bolt action ruger American ranch. It does very well with the 110 gr Barnes at 2350 fps.
But yes. I wish I could use a 223.
I’m working with a Ruger 300 BKO. What’s your best 110 TAC load?
A little over 40 years ago we used a .243 Win and 22-250 on mule deer. Erratic results were experienced to say the least. My stepdad at the time always over estimated distance and swore a person could hold dead on a deer out to 400 yards with the .243 and DRT. It was more in the 200-300 yard range, but there were some dramatic results. He preferred the 80g varmint bullets and was not a handloader. I shot a little buck a little bit back and with no blood showing it got away.
Then he was all about shooting deer with the 22-250 and it did a decent job at times. I shot another little buck at 300 yards behind the ear. The bullet hit where I was aiming. Of course, it was DRT. Later I shot a doe at ~100 yards taking off the arteries on top of the heart. She just kept walking like nothing had happened as we watched a blood stain grow on her side and than she just fell over. Shot another doe that might have been too far back that we never recovered. Both lost deer (the one with the .243 and this one) were traveling well and had non-shooters in our party jump ahead of me and spooked them out of the country. My last deer with that cartridge was a doe at 10-20 ft as she ran by me. I hit her in the hip dropping her and then had to finish her off. Obviously a bad shot. But, what was interesting is the bullet dished out a lot of meat exposing the pelvis, but did not break it.
These were all varmint type bullets and obviously not all hit well. What I did notice was more blood from my 30-06 and it had the capability to break bone compared to the varmint bullets we used at the time. I didn't use .22 on deer again until a few years ago when my son started hunting. This was due to reading post by ingwe and others about how effective they were.
Well, shooting the 64g Winchester PP out of an 18" barreled AR my son made 4 (what should have been) killing hits on a large-bodied mule deer buck. Longest shot was a little over 100 yards. The deer came back closer to us after the hit. Then as it stood broadside at less than 100 yards he shot it 3 more times, 2 in the lungs and one that should have been a heart shot but broke the leg and deflected into the ground. Finally blood started coming out of his nose and he fell over. On dressing him out we discovered the first shot hit the liver with little damage and the lung shots pretty much penciled through with little damage, but none exited. I almost gave up on it right there, but taking ingwe's advice I bought some Barnes bullets to try, but then sold the AR to buy something else so haven't tried them yet. The only .22 centerfire I currently have is a .220 Swift with a 14" twist that Barnes says is too slow for the bullets so haven't tried them yet.
This subject has probably been beat to death on various forums, but what say the 'Fire? Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards?
Yeah, what Hanco said, with good designed bullets, it is decent. And of course the faster .22 centerfires are better than .223 is.
Faster can be a double edged sword, IMO. Proper bullet is key, but judging by this thread, there are many good ones out there. Still, you need the right twist for many and the standard 1-7/9 in a 223 vs a 1:14 in a 22-250 could be critical.
I like the 70 Speer semi-spitzer in my 223. Performance is the same from muzzle to 200 yards. Complete pass through and good expansion.
Yeah, I forgot about most .22-250 and .220 Swift having a slow twist. There's a Wildcat round called .224 Texas Trophy Hunter that is a 6mm Remington case necked down to .224 with a fast twist.
Found some 4 x 6 sized steel plates laying on the ground over at the range locally, at the 100 yd berm. Thickness was 3/8 thick.
I was shooting a 223, and 10 shots drill right thru them. Bolt action, 55 grain Hornady SP, fueled by 12.5 grains of Blue Dot. MV 2500 fps.
I didn't think I should be seeing the bullets plowing right thru the plate. So I took several home, and loaded up 40 rounds for an experiment.
Chose both 55 grain Hornady SPs, and Hornady 55 gr FMJ. Loading 10 of each bullet. First batch with 12.5 grains of Blue Dot. Second group was loaded with H4895 IIRC, but MV was 3150 fps, equivalent to military specs for MV.
Set 4 plates on the bank behind the target stands at 100 yds. Each plate got 10 shots, first two plates with the Blue Dot loads with an MV of 2550 fps. 10 SPs and 10 FMJ on the second plate on the left.... then the other two plates were to the right of that.
Those two plates were shot, with 55 gr SP at 3150 fps MV on the left, and 55 gr FMJ at 3150 fps MV on the right.
Results surprised me immensely.
With an MV of 2550 fps with Blue Dot load, each 10 bullets penetrated thru the plate they were shot at., this being 100 yds.
The next 2 plates on the right... 3150 fps, with H 4895, each 10 bullets were shot at 100 yds also. ALL 10 bullets, with 55 gr SP, and then 10 bullets of 55 gr FMJ @3150 fps. EACH bullet that left the muzzle at 3150 fps, hit and splattered on the steel plates.. None of them penetrated the plates at all. Where as the bullets shot at 2550 fps MV at 100 yds, EACH one penetrated the steel plate it was shot at.
I wasn't seeing what I was expecting to see. In fact, just the opposite.
Since that experiment 10 plus years ago, I've used the Blue Dot load with the 223 and they have dropped the deer each time. Less recoil makes the load easier to shoot for younger or female shooters, and gives a much better shot placement.
Conclusions from the Steel Plate experiment..
At 3150 fps MV, the bullets did not have enough structural integrity to penetrate thru the 3/8 inch steel plate. However, slow the same bullet types down to 2550 fps MV and at 100 yds, each type had the ability to penetrate the steel plate, drawing the conclusion, at the slower speed it had the structural integrity to overcome the structural integrity of the steel plates.
Draw your own conclusions, but above are the experiences and conclusions that I drew. Some of the campfire members her have seen the steel plates, as I keep them in the back of my Honda Pilot.
I’m working with a Ruger 300 BKO. What’s your best 110 TAC load?
DF
I run 20 gr of h110. Gets me close to 2400fps. Slightly faster than the factory load. Not sure about the coal, but it is close to factory loaded length. Have used it on a few deer from 75-163 yards. Has worked like a charm so far.
Oh, and with sub MOA accuracy. Took it out to check before the hunt on Sat, conditions were just about perfect. At 150 yards it cut the vertical line on the target 1.2” above the bullseye. Puts me just over 2” high at 100 and 2” low at 200. That’s as far as I plan to shoot that one and a long shot in my hunting areas. Really, really like this round/bullet/powder combo.
At 3150 fps MV, the bullets did not have enough structural integrity to penetrate thru the 3/8 inch steel plate. However, slow the same bullet types down to 2550 fps MV and at 100 yds, each type had the ability to penetrate the steel plate, drawing the conclusion, at the slower speed it had the structural integrity to overcome the structural integrity of the steel plates.
Does this really make sense? I mean, is it supported by physics? Very interesting, regardless.
A little over 40 years ago we used a .243 Win and 22-250 on mule deer. Erratic results were experienced to say the least. My stepdad at the time always over estimated distance and swore a person could hold dead on a deer out to 400 yards with the .243 and DRT. It was more in the 200-300 yard range, but there were some dramatic results. He preferred the 80g varmint bullets and was not a handloader. I shot a little buck a little bit back and with no blood showing it got away.
Then he was all about shooting deer with the 22-250 and it did a decent job at times. I shot another little buck at 300 yards behind the ear. The bullet hit where I was aiming. Of course, it was DRT. Later I shot a doe at ~100 yards taking off the arteries on top of the heart. She just kept walking like nothing had happened as we watched a blood stain grow on her side and than she just fell over. Shot another doe that might have been too far back that we never recovered. Both lost deer (the one with the .243 and this one) were traveling well and had non-shooters in our party jump ahead of me and spooked them out of the country. My last deer with that cartridge was a doe at 10-20 ft as she ran by me. I hit her in the hip dropping her and then had to finish her off. Obviously a bad shot. But, what was interesting is the bullet dished out a lot of meat exposing the pelvis, but did not break it.
These were all varmint type bullets and obviously not all hit well. What I did notice was more blood from my 30-06 and it had the capability to break bone compared to the varmint bullets we used at the time. I didn't use .22 on deer again until a few years ago when my son started hunting. This was due to reading post by ingwe and others about how effective they were.
Well, shooting the 64g Winchester PP out of an 18" barreled AR my son made 4 (what should have been) killing hits on a large-bodied mule deer buck. Longest shot was a little over 100 yards. The deer came back closer to us after the hit. Then as it stood broadside at less than 100 yards he shot it 3 more times, 2 in the lungs and one that should have been a heart shot but broke the leg and deflected into the ground. Finally blood started coming out of his nose and he fell over. On dressing him out we discovered the first shot hit the liver with little damage and the lung shots pretty much penciled through with little damage, but none exited. I almost gave up on it right there, but taking ingwe's advice I bought some Barnes bullets to try, but then sold the AR to buy something else so haven't tried them yet. The only .22 centerfire I currently have is a .220 Swift with a 14" twist that Barnes says is too slow for the bullets so haven't tried them yet.
LMAO.
Poor shooting and you're blaming Ingwe for saying it works? My kids have taken 5 deer with the .223 Win and 55gr bullets. None requiring a second shot. None closer than 50 yards and only one took a step. It was pouring blood the entire time it was stumbling down the hill.
This subject has probably been beat to death on various forums, but what say the 'Fire? Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards?
Absolutely, yes.
Shot mine at 50, 100, and 200 yesterday. Same as always 1/2 MOA with 55gr TTSX.
Of course it was one of those junk Kimber Montana's with a crappy Leupold 2.5-8 VX3
A little over 40 years ago we used a .243 Win and 22-250 on mule deer. Erratic results were experienced to say the least. My stepdad at the time always over estimated distance and swore a person could hold dead on a deer out to 400 yards with the .243 and DRT. It was more in the 200-300 yard range, but there were some dramatic results. He preferred the 80g varmint bullets and was not a handloader. I shot a little buck a little bit back and with no blood showing it got away.
Then he was all about shooting deer with the 22-250 and it did a decent job at times. I shot another little buck at 300 yards behind the ear. The bullet hit where I was aiming. Of course, it was DRT. Later I shot a doe at ~100 yards taking off the arteries on top of the heart. She just kept walking like nothing had happened as we watched a blood stain grow on her side and than she just fell over. Shot another doe that might have been too far back that we never recovered. Both lost deer (the one with the .243 and this one) were traveling well and had non-shooters in our party jump ahead of me and spooked them out of the country. My last deer with that cartridge was a doe at 10-20 ft as she ran by me. I hit her in the hip dropping her and then had to finish her off. Obviously a bad shot. But, what was interesting is the bullet dished out a lot of meat exposing the pelvis, but did not break it.
These were all varmint type bullets and obviously not all hit well. What I did notice was more blood from my 30-06 and it had the capability to break bone compared to the varmint bullets we used at the time. I didn't use .22 on deer again until a few years ago when my son started hunting. This was due to reading post by ingwe and others about how effective they were.
Well, shooting the 64g Winchester PP out of an 18" barreled AR my son made 4 (what should have been) killing hits on a large-bodied mule deer buck. Longest shot was a little over 100 yards. The deer came back closer to us after the hit. Then as it stood broadside at less than 100 yards he shot it 3 more times, 2 in the lungs and one that should have been a heart shot but broke the leg and deflected into the ground. Finally blood started coming out of his nose and he fell over. On dressing him out we discovered the first shot hit the liver with little damage and the lung shots pretty much penciled through with little damage, but none exited. I almost gave up on it right there, but taking ingwe's advice I bought some Barnes bullets to try, but then sold the AR to buy something else so haven't tried them yet. The only .22 centerfire I currently have is a .220 Swift with a 14" twist that Barnes says is too slow for the bullets so haven't tried them yet.
LMAO.
Poor shooting and you're blaming Ingwe for saying it works? My kids have taken 5 deer with the .223 Win and 55gr bullets. None requiring a second shot. None closer than 50 yards and only one took a step. It was pouring blood the entire time it was stumbling down the hill.
Chamberings get blamed often for poor bullet selection and placement.
Yes, with good bullets, the 223 is a killer. Only one I've ever shot a deer or hog with was a 62 grain Barnes. I've killed hogs that were pushing 300#, and it did a number on them. All side shots, not in the ear hole. I liked that bullet in the 223 so much, I went to the 130 Barnes in my 308. I honestly had better blood trails with the 62 in the 223 than the 130 in 308
A little over 40 years ago we used a .243 Win and 22-250 on mule deer. Erratic results were experienced to say the least. My stepdad at the time always over estimated distance and swore a person could hold dead on a deer out to 400 yards with the .243 and DRT. It was more in the 200-300 yard range, but there were some dramatic results. He preferred the 80g varmint bullets and was not a handloader. I shot a little buck a little bit back and with no blood showing it got away.
Then he was all about shooting deer with the 22-250 and it did a decent job at times. I shot another little buck at 300 yards behind the ear. The bullet hit where I was aiming. Of course, it was DRT. Later I shot a doe at ~100 yards taking off the arteries on top of the heart. She just kept walking like nothing had happened as we watched a blood stain grow on her side and than she just fell over. Shot another doe that might have been too far back that we never recovered. Both lost deer (the one with the .243 and this one) were traveling well and had non-shooters in our party jump ahead of me and spooked them out of the country. My last deer with that cartridge was a doe at 10-20 ft as she ran by me. I hit her in the hip dropping her and then had to finish her off. Obviously a bad shot. But, what was interesting is the bullet dished out a lot of meat exposing the pelvis, but did not break it.
These were all varmint type bullets and obviously not all hit well. What I did notice was more blood from my 30-06 and it had the capability to break bone compared to the varmint bullets we used at the time. I didn't use .22 on deer again until a few years ago when my son started hunting. This was due to reading post by ingwe and others about how effective they were.
Well, shooting the 64g Winchester PP out of an 18" barreled AR my son made 4 (what should have been) killing hits on a large-bodied mule deer buck. Longest shot was a little over 100 yards. The deer came back closer to us after the hit. Then as it stood broadside at less than 100 yards he shot it 3 more times, 2 in the lungs and one that should have been a heart shot but broke the leg and deflected into the ground. Finally blood started coming out of his nose and he fell over. On dressing him out we discovered the first shot hit the liver with little damage and the lung shots pretty much penciled through with little damage, but none exited. I almost gave up on it right there, but taking ingwe's advice I bought some Barnes bullets to try, but then sold the AR to buy something else so haven't tried them yet. The only .22 centerfire I currently have is a .220 Swift with a 14" twist that Barnes says is too slow for the bullets so haven't tried them yet.
LMAO.
Poor shooting and you're blaming Ingwe for saying it works? My kids have taken 5 deer with the .223 Win and 55gr bullets. None requiring a second shot. None closer than 50 yards and only one took a step. It was pouring blood the entire time it was stumbling down the hill.
You may need to re read it. There were bad hits and good hits. None were good results that weren't head shot. I didn't blame ingwe, but took his advice on .22 CF and didn't have good results with the bullets used. All the .22 CF I used were a few decades before I knew of ingwe and as I pointed out all were varmint type bullets. Chances are high it was a poor bullet on my sons deer and again following ingwe's advice and others bought the Barnes, but haven't had the chance to use them yet.
A little over 40 years ago we used a .243 Win and 22-250 on mule deer. Erratic results were experienced to say the least. My stepdad at the time always over estimated distance and swore a person could hold dead on a deer out to 400 yards with the .243 and DRT. It was more in the 200-300 yard range, but there were some dramatic results. He preferred the 80g varmint bullets and was not a handloader. I shot a little buck a little bit back and with no blood showing it got away.
Then he was all about shooting deer with the 22-250 and it did a decent job at times. I shot another little buck at 300 yards behind the ear. The bullet hit where I was aiming. Of course, it was DRT. Later I shot a doe at ~100 yards taking off the arteries on top of the heart. She just kept walking like nothing had happened as we watched a blood stain grow on her side and than she just fell over. Shot another doe that might have been too far back that we never recovered. Both lost deer (the one with the .243 and this one) were traveling well and had non-shooters in our party jump ahead of me and spooked them out of the country. My last deer with that cartridge was a doe at 10-20 ft as she ran by me. I hit her in the hip dropping her and then had to finish her off. Obviously a bad shot. But, what was interesting is the bullet dished out a lot of meat exposing the pelvis, but did not break it.
These were all varmint type bullets and obviously not all hit well. What I did notice was more blood from my 30-06 and it had the capability to break bone compared to the varmint bullets we used at the time. I didn't use .22 on deer again until a few years ago when my son started hunting. This was due to reading post by ingwe and others about how effective they were.
Well, shooting the 64g Winchester PP out of an 18" barreled AR my son made 4 (what should have been) killing hits on a large-bodied mule deer buck. Longest shot was a little over 100 yards. The deer came back closer to us after the hit. Then as it stood broadside at less than 100 yards he shot it 3 more times, 2 in the lungs and one that should have been a heart shot but broke the leg and deflected into the ground. Finally blood started coming out of his nose and he fell over. On dressing him out we discovered the first shot hit the liver with little damage and the lung shots pretty much penciled through with little damage, but none exited. I almost gave up on it right there, but taking ingwe's advice I bought some Barnes bullets to try, but then sold the AR to buy something else so haven't tried them yet. The only .22 centerfire I currently have is a .220 Swift with a 14" twist that Barnes says is too slow for the bullets so haven't tried them yet.
LMAO.
Poor shooting and you're blaming Ingwe for saying it works? My kids have taken 5 deer with the .223 Win and 55gr bullets. None requiring a second shot. None closer than 50 yards and only one took a step. It was pouring blood the entire time it was stumbling down the hill.
Chamberings get blamed often for poor bullet selection and placement.
Poor bullets I agree and some were poor placement. The bullets were what was available at the time (over 40 years ago.) That still doesn't mean a larger caliber wouldn't have done better, especially on the deer shot in the hip or the one my son shot which was supposed to be a better bullet. The smallest caliber I shoot and my kids shoot currently is the 6.5 Grendel with excellent results. I would like to shoot something with the better .22 bullets, but I don't have a rifle to shoot them yet.
It doesn't take special modern bullets to kill the shyt out of deer with a .22. I started killing them with the .222 and .223 back in '91. Bullets I used back then were the old 50 and 55 gr. Nosler solid base and the Win. and Horn. 55 gr. soft points. I have an 8 point on the wall from '91 and another from '93 taken with the Noslers, one with the .222 and the other the .223. The '93 buck weighed 172 lbs dressed and one quartering shot through the lungs from 125 yards put him down on the spot. The little Nosler hit near the last rib on the left side and was recovered from the right shoulder.
As I understand it Nosler Solid Bases were a fairly tough bullet. Were they pretty tough in .22 caliber?
From what I could tell, not terribly. They seemed to expand readily/easily and did a lot of damage to the lungs. The bullets I recovered from the far side of deer were expanded clear down to the base with little and sometimes no lead left in them. About the only .22 cal. bullets I wouldn't shoot deer with from a .223 and expect decent results would be fragile stuff like the V-max, Hornady SX and Speer TNT. Ordinary 55 gr. sp's usually work fine.
My 223 sits right next to my 06 in the safe. Hard to grab the little gun on the way to Cooperstown camp. I have it sighted in with 52 Barnes and may bring it for a doe and then see what I think. Bad shoulder and all I have a nice light load for the 06 with 4895 and 150 Horns at 2800.
LOL, 223 Greenhorn here Sir, that said, and in your honor, i had gun bud find and order me a Ruger American Predator 8 twist 223, i have rings and spare 2.5-8 and 6.5-20 Leupold scopes, 62gr Bearclaws and 64gr Nosler Bonded's at 3100+ fps from the 22" barrel would have to do a real bangup job on deer and pigs this side of 250 yards, i intend to find out this season.
Welp, put the little Ruger 223 on the bags last night before dark, the 62gr TBBC and 64gr Nosler Bonded's run an average of 3076 fps over CFE-223 powder in the LC brass, both bullets shot into a bit less than an inch and a half at 100 for 5 rounds, had 8-10 mph variable winds out of the west, firing dew north, groups settled an inch or so right of center at 1.5" high, will be centered close enough in calm winds, and certainly good enough for 250 yard hunting, smacked the 200 yard steel a couple times, little slugs still packing some pretty descent wallop at that range.
There's a monster black russian sow on the mountain that dearly needs to meet my new rifle.
LOL, 223 Greenhorn here Sir, that said, and in your honor, i had gun bud find and order me a Ruger American Predator 8 twist 223, i have rings and spare 2.5-8 and 6.5-20 Leupold scopes, 62gr Bearclaws and 64gr Nosler Bonded's at 3100+ fps from the 22" barrel would have to do a real bangup job on deer and pigs this side of 250 yards, i intend to find out this season.
Welp, put the little Ruger 223 on the bags last night before dark, the 62gr TBBC and 64gr Nosler Bonded's run an average of 3076 fps over CFE-223 powder in the LC brass, both bullets shot into a bit less than an inch and a half at 100 for 5 rounds, had 8-10 mph variable winds out of the west, firing dew north, groups settled an inch or so right of center at 1.5" high, will be centered close enough in calm winds, and certainly good enough for 250 yard hunting, smacked the 200 yard steel a couple times, little slugs still packing some pretty descent wallop at that range.
There's a monster black russian sow on the mountain that dearly needs to meet my new rifle.
I think you’ll have fun with it Gunner. I’m not sure you’ll even know it went off though being as you’re so used to other larger pushers.
i just ordered some 70 gr. Hammer Hunter bullets for my grandson`s AR-15 223/556 for deer hunting he is only 10 years old and skinny ,grandson can handle this recoil on a AR-15 and the Hammer bullets should work great for him.
I'm on the shoulder with the TTSX out of the .223/.223AI. I keep trying to talk myself into sending one through the lungs but I just haven't done it.
FWIW....Seen it a couple times...One took a step and the other ran around in a small circle and fell over. Another was hit chest center and never took a step.
In my experience, the Barnes really needs speed to wreck lungs well. I shot them in 223AI at 3,300 or so and they worked fine on deer and hogs, although I only shot them inside 150yds or so. Little buzz-saws at that speed. Lung hits were actually okay on blood trails. Not amazing, but fairly okay. I shot a coyote at 200-250yds with the same bullet from an AR carbine and it was not impressive at the lower impact speed. He needed several body hits to go down.
I think the bigger-cased, high-RPM .22 centerfires make the most of the 60-70gr mono bullets, as they have the horsepower to make them perform. Your standard 18-22" .223 bolt gun or AR is better off with a softer bullet if you want to shoot 60-75gr, and if you want to go with a mono, I'd look at a 50-55gr version to keep the speed up. I believe that several posters here on this thread feel the same way.
I’ve used the 53gr TSX a good bit out of 223s with 16 to 20” barrels. As I stated above, if they didn’t hit bone they weren’t impressive for me. At those speeds the 55gr Hornady SP was much more decisive.
In my opinion and experience, at the speeds attainable in an 18” 223 the 77TMK is the unrivaled king of terminal performance.
"Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards?"
I sayl less than a preferred choice IMHO. Can it work? Sure the 223 can work very well Id guess. Never tried the 223 on deer & hope to never do so. Bullet choice & velocity can make a big difference. Ill stick with a 6mm caliber for my minimum choice.
In my opinion and experience, at the speeds attainable in an 18” 223 the 77TMK is the unrivaled king of terminal performance.
I should have grabbed some of those cannelured blems that were available a while back. The 77TMK really sounds like a winner, if you can find them and don't mind paying for them.
I scarfed a bunch of them when Larry had the seconds. So far I’ve only found one that was an actual blem and it was broken in half at the cannulure. My only wish is that I bought more when they were available.
After my hunt this morning and my 10 year old missing a nice 4x4 at under 100 with the mini howa mtd lss grendel I put together for him I think I should have just let him use my lightweight 16" ar. He asked to use the ar and it had a 20 round mag of 60g partitions in it and I just said no you're using this bolt gun.
I'm finding that 10 is pretty young to be deer hunting stalking style not from some ground blind or elevated stand where they have a good rest. It just hard for young inexperienced kids to get set up in a hurry in a field shooting position where you have to improvise with whatever is near by to try and make a rest. I really am starting to think a lightweight ar with an adjustable stock in 223 is the ideal 10 year olds deer rifle for one who's actually out stalking animals not waiting to ambush one from a bench.
That little ar has a lightweight 16" Black hole weaponry 3 groove 8 twist and a ctr stock. The kids love it. My 7 year old would bank rupt my running cases of ammo through if I let him. My 8 year old daughter says she likes it better than her purple rascal and wants me to build her a purple ar. I think for the my 7 and 8 year olds first deer guns I will just build them lightweight ARs. Maybe I'll find some pencil weight 6mmx45 barrels so I can burn up all the 85g partitions I have.
Then when they get a little bigger say 12 I'll build them bolt guns in something a bit bigger.
I can't imagine how the leftists would freak reading that someone is considering building ars for his kids at age 10. I just really think they'll make good deer guns for smaller kids. I let my 10 year old use the ar in the morning if the right opportunity presents again. He told me on the way home tonight that I don't have to find him another big 4x4 he said he just wants to shoot a buck, any buck.
Was out playing with my AR earlier this week. It has an upper built by a buddy that is a 16", 1/9 twist, with a 223 Wilde chamber. Over the 2 years I've had it, it has just impressed me as a good fun gun, usually getting around 1.5 MOA more or less. All my shooting with it has been with 50 and 55 gr bullets, with one attempt with 64 gr WWs. It didn't like te 64 grainers at all.
Because of the tighter twist, I decided to try some other heavier bullets. Unfortunately, because of the shortages, I am down to just 55 grainers and one box of these:
I don't know where they came from, probably some long ago trade or group purchase, but they've been sitting there for years. Anyhoo, I loaded up a handful to try. The first three shot group went into 0.33". Subsequent groups were 0.67", 0.98", and 0.6". They only clocked in at 2660 fps but were dang sho shooting close.
Here is the question....has anyone used these things and will they expand on a deer? I called Nosler yesterday and the technician could not find this bullet in any of the catalogs or sales materials he had on hand. Since they only went back to 1975 or so, he thinks the bullet was probably from the 60s when they were making them by hand.
The box refers to them as 'Solid Base' and not 'Match' so it really doesn't help much. Unless I can get definitive information on how well they will expand on a deer, I'll either pass using them or only take head or CNS shots. I'd hate to shoot a deer in the boiler room and have it just pencil through or explode on the rib cage.
We big kids miss too. Tell him not to worry about that! But a gun they like and are comfortable shooting is a must. No matter the situation.
Bingo. Kids are never going to be that quick at that age, you just have to be patient and allow them to get a lot of practice. When I was that age, I was out in the desert shooting jackrabbits. Most kids do not get that kind of practice anymore. So, take them to the range and work with them. Make it fun and keep them off the bench!! When you are young, that is when you need to learn how to shoot from your hind legs. Offhand, offhand, offhand. Shoot from the bench later on in life, but learn them right from the start.. and no, more lead slung at deer or elk downrange is not the answer. I hope that is not was he was alluding to. If so, that is a piss poor belief. 1 shot 1 kill.. Give him a single shot that is lighter, if need be.
Was out playing with my AR earlier this week. It has an upper built by a buddy that is a 16", 1/9 twist, with a 223 Wilde chamber. Over the 2 years I've had it, it has just impressed me as a good fun gun, usually getting around 1.5 MOA more or less. All my shooting with it has been with 50 and 55 gr bullets, with one attempt with 64 gr WWs. It didn't like te 64 grainers at all.
Because of the tighter twist, I decided to try some other heavier bullets. Unfortunately, because of the shortages, I am down to just 55 grainers and one box of these:
I don't know where they came from, probably some long ago trade or group purchase, but they've been sitting there for years. Anyhoo, I loaded up a handful to try. The first three shot group went into 0.33". Subsequent groups were 0.67", 0.98", and 0.6". They only clocked in at 2660 fps but were dang sho shooting close.
Here is the question....has anyone used these things and will they expand on a deer? I called Nosler yesterday and the technician could not find this bullet in any of the catalogs or sales materials he had on hand. Since they only went back to 1975 or so, he thinks the bullet was probably from the 60s when they were making them by hand.
The box refers to them as 'Solid Base' and not 'Match' so it really doesn't help much. Unless I can get definitive information on how well they will expand on a deer, I'll either pass using them or only take head or CNS shots. I'd hate to shoot a deer in the boiler room and have it just pencil through or explode on the rib cage.
Use a 55gr Hornady sp interlock. That will take all the guess work out of it. You can burn those 68's up on paper and steel. Won't take very long in an AR.. Stretch that AR out to 4-500 with those bullets and see how they do. You may be surprised.
Use a 55gr Hornady sp interlock. That will take all the guess work out of it. You can burn those 68's up on paper and steel. Won't take very long in an AR.. Stretch that AR out to 4-500 with those bullets and see how they do. You may be surprised.
I killed a half dozen or so deer with the 222 and 55 grainers back when I was a teenager. The only deer since then with a 22 was with my L46 Sako using a 55 gr Hornady SP. All of the above shots produced DRTs. I have several hundred of the Hornadys and have faith in them to do the trick, but just like the idea of a heavier bullet in the AR. My L46 was rechambered from 222 Rem before I got it and has a 1/14 or so twist. The 55 gr Hornady is the biggest bullet it will handle. I tried some of the aforementioned 64 gr WWs in it while playing with the Noslers in the AR yesterday and they missed the 14"X14" target! I found where one of them went through the backing board sideways. However, it shoots the 55 Hornadys into tiny groups consistently.
Naw, I would just love to kill a deer using the Noslers. A hundred yards is all I can safely shoot on my property, and I don't get much fun out of shooting groups after establishing what the bullet/load/rifle can do. I only shot 3 shot groups so as to leave more of the bullets to 'do business' with. IF it turns out not to be a good hunting bullet and IF I back off from using head/CNS shots, I'll plan on hunting yotes with it.
Regarding the Solid Base bullets, this is from Nosler's website:
"1972
The Solid Base® bullet was introduced.
John’s next hunting bullet design was the Solid Base®, unique because of its thick, solid base and tapered jacket. This streamlined boat tail set a new standard for aerodynamics among hunting bullets, but also provided incredible terminal performance on deer-sized big game. Solid Base® varmint and target bullets were built on the same principal, and these quickly set a high standard for accuracy."
I never used the 22 cal Solid Bases, but the 6mms, 25s, 264s, and 270s were my favorite bullets. Still mad at Nosler for discontinuing.
Because of the tighter twist, I decided to try some other heavier bullets. Unfortunately, because of the shortages, I am down to just 55 grainers and one box of these:
knock on wood, never lost a deer with one, all have fallen within eye sight, using the 62gr federal fusions. My kids are older now and using more sufficient calibers.
Was out playing with my AR earlier this week. It has an upper built by a buddy that is a 16", 1/9 twist, with a 223 Wilde chamber. Over the 2 years I've had it, it has just impressed me as a good fun gun, usually getting around 1.5 MOA more or less. All my shooting with it has been with 50 and 55 gr bullets, with one attempt with 64 gr WWs. It didn't like te 64 grainers at all.
Because of the tighter twist, I decided to try some other heavier bullets. Unfortunately, because of the shortages, I am down to just 55 grainers and one box of these:
I don't know where they came from, probably some long ago trade or group purchase, but they've been sitting there for years. Anyhoo, I loaded up a handful to try. The first three shot group went into 0.33". Subsequent groups were 0.67", 0.98", and 0.6". They only clocked in at 2660 fps but were dang sho shooting close.
Here is the question....has anyone used these things and will they expand on a deer? I called Nosler yesterday and the technician could not find this bullet in any of the catalogs or sales materials he had on hand. Since they only went back to 1975 or so, he thinks the bullet was probably from the 60s when they were making them by hand.
The box refers to them as 'Solid Base' and not 'Match' so it really doesn't help much. Unless I can get definitive information on how well they will expand on a deer, I'll either pass using them or only take head or CNS shots. I'd hate to shoot a deer in the boiler room and have it just pencil through or explode on the rib cage.
It's newer than the sixties and I'm pretty sure it's Nosler's take on a hpbt match bullet. I don't have my old Nosler manual handy to check. What it will do in flesh I can't say.
Was out playing with my AR earlier this week. It has an upper built by a buddy that is a 16", 1/9 twist, with a 223 Wilde chamber. Over the 2 years I've had it, it has just impressed me as a good fun gun, usually getting around 1.5 MOA more or less. All my shooting with it has been with 50 and 55 gr bullets, with one attempt with 64 gr WWs. It didn't like te 64 grainers at all.
Because of the tighter twist, I decided to try some other heavier bullets. Unfortunately, because of the shortages, I am down to just 55 grainers and one box of these:
I don't know where they came from, probably some long ago trade or group purchase, but they've been sitting there for years. Anyhoo, I loaded up a handful to try. The first three shot group went into 0.33". Subsequent groups were 0.67", 0.98", and 0.6". They only clocked in at 2660 fps but were dang sho shooting close.
Here is the question....has anyone used these things and will they expand on a deer? I called Nosler yesterday and the technician could not find this bullet in any of the catalogs or sales materials he had on hand. Since they only went back to 1975 or so, he thinks the bullet was probably from the 60s when they were making them by hand.
The box refers to them as 'Solid Base' and not 'Match' so it really doesn't help much. Unless I can get definitive information on how well they will expand on a deer, I'll either pass using them or only take head or CNS shots. I'd hate to shoot a deer in the boiler room and have it just pencil through or explode on the rib cage.
Mid to late 80s manufacture.
Should be able to find something of comparable length that may shoot just as good.
We big kids miss too. Tell him not to worry about that! But a gun they like and are comfortable shooting is a must. No matter the situation.
Bingo. Kids are never going to be that quick at that age, you just have to be patient and allow them to get a lot of practice. When I was that age, I was out in the desert shooting jackrabbits. Most kids do not get that kind of practice anymore. So, take them to the range and work with them. Make it fun and keep them off the bench!! When you are young, that is when you need to learn how to shoot from your hind legs. Offhand, offhand, offhand. Shoot from the bench later on in life, but learn them right from the start.. and no, more lead slung at deer or elk downrange is not the answer. I hope that is not was he was alluding to. If so, that is a piss poor belief. 1 shot 1 kill.. Give him a single shot that is lighter, if need be.
My kids first deer was comical actually.
I had him practicing all fall. I'd have him run 20 yards and back so his heart rate was up a bit, then shoot the deer target. Stuff like that to make it fun.
But his first one... we were set up in the stand and we saw a deer within 2 minutes of being up there. It wasn't shooting light even yet. So we set the gun up on the rest and waited a second. Then another one ran in, no BS.....right into where he had the gun lined up. He said "she's right in the scope"
I looked at my watch and was going to say I think it's time now. But what happened was I said "I"....and then there was a BOOM!!
After my hunt this morning and my 10 year old missing a nice 4x4 at under 100 with the mini howa mtd lss grendel I put together for him I think I should have just let him use my lightweight 16" ar. He asked to use the ar and it had a 20 round mag of 60g partitions in it and I just said no you're using this bolt gun.
I'm finding that 10 is pretty young to be deer hunting stalking style not from some ground blind or elevated stand where they have a good rest. It just hard for young inexperienced kids to get set up in a hurry in a field shooting position where you have to improvise with whatever is near by to try and make a rest. I really am starting to think a lightweight ar with an adjustable stock in 223 is the ideal 10 year olds deer rifle for one who's actually out stalking animals not waiting to ambush one from a bench.
That little ar has a lightweight 16" Black hole weaponry 3 groove 8 twist and a ctr stock. The kids love it. My 7 year old would bank rupt my running cases of ammo through if I let him. My 8 year old daughter says she likes it better than her purple rascal and wants me to build her a purple ar. I think for the my 7 and 8 year olds first deer guns I will just build them lightweight ARs. Maybe I'll find some pencil weight 6mmx45 barrels so I can burn up all the 85g partitions I have.
Then when they get a little bigger say 12 I'll build them bolt guns in something a bit bigger.
I can't imagine how the leftists would freak reading that someone is considering building ars for his kids at age 10. I just really think they'll make good deer guns for smaller kids. I let my 10 year old use the ar in the morning if the right opportunity presents again. He told me on the way home tonight that I don't have to find him another big 4x4 he said he just wants to shoot a buck, any buck.
Bb
The absolute best training tool I EVER had was a youth model RWS .177 break-open with a 4x scope. We got it for Christmas when I was about 10 and my brother was 7. Aside from the initial sight-in and occasional zero-check, it never saw a benchrest or sandbags. We shot cans, birds, varmints, grasshoppers, you name it, all from improvised field positions, be it bracing against a tree, shooting off somebody's shoulder, or kneeling behind the railing of the backyard deck. It taught us how to judge a rest, get our body where it needed to be, acquire the target, and break the trigger at the right time. It was invaluable experience, and made me into a pretty decent shot when it was time to hunt deer in the following years.
Most people talk out their rear on this topic, but my group friends and I have taken no less than 25 whitetail with the same load. Never had to track a single one amongst us.
A .223 for deer is like taking your fat cousin to the prom...if that us all you got, well...
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For what it is worth, 6mmARC is my small deer gun. 108 grain Berger Elite Hunter was instant death last fall. This year I am deciding on what copper bullet to try. Leaning on Lehigh Defense or Absolute Hammer. have 3 tags to fill so perhaps both.
Really becoming a fan of the high shoulder Brachial plexus shot.
Remington 700 sps stainless, 12T, 24" 55g Hornady Sp 3450 fps Benchmark powder, Remington or Winchester brass, IMI is the gold standard cci 450***very important for the very best accuracy
You can hit thimbles at 100 yards with this load
Two does I shot with this load folded up in their tracks, speed kills
A vert wise man once said, "stuff ain't hard to kill, just place your shot".
I shot two does with a 223 AR, H-Bar tricked out with a leupold 6.5x20 target on it. Dial was marked for up to 300 yards for the 62g tsx. The distance was 270 yards with the AR on the does, and both of them ran 100-150 yards with good heart/lung shots. Deer can have an amazing willingness to live.
A .223 for deer is like taking your fat cousin to the prom...if that us all you got, well...
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For what it is worth, 6mmARC is my small deer gun. 108 grain Berger Elite Hunter was instant death last fall. This year I am deciding on what copper bullet to try. Leaning on Lehigh Defense or Absolute Hammer. have 3 tags to fill so perhaps both.
Really becoming a fan of the high shoulder Brachial plexus shot.
A .223 for deer is like taking your fat cousin to the prom...if that us all you got, well...
Like!
For what it is worth, 6mmARC is my small deer gun. 108 grain Berger Elite Hunter was instant death last fall. This year I am deciding on what copper bullet to try. Leaning on Lehigh Defense or Absolute Hammer. have 3 tags to fill so perhaps both.
Really becoming a fan of the high shoulder Brachial plexus shot.
my Seven-year-old Daughter will be using my 700 PSS in 223 with 55grain Barnes. it shoots those very accurately and I have used it for filling farm tag deer in the summers with no issues.
When I was young, we had a neighbor that would go after deer with his 1940's vintage Chevy and a 22 LR out the window. He would drive alongside deer and shoot the deer, any time of the year his family needed meat. They were poor. His son told us that it took a few shots before the deer would drop. The neighbors knew about it. On the ranch where I hunt - West River South Dakota, the rancher had a 340 Savage in 222. His only deer rifle. He filled the freezer every year with that 222 using factory ammo. He had deer all over his ranch and even in his yard, he hunted for meat, not horns. He passed away a couple years ago, nice guy. I have a couple 223's, but I don't have anything but varmint bullets for them except for 64 grain Nosler PPT which I found out don't shoot accurately in those rifles. I've ordered appropriate bullets, but they are on back order. Maybe those varmint bullets would work, IDK. I used to have some Winchester 55 grain bullets that I felt were good for deer. I only shot one doe with that bullet, and it was with a 22-250.
That should do just fine Gunner. But you know that.
Shot mine at 200 on Monday. I love that little rifle.
55gr ttsx over 4198.
Good stuff, Thanks T and Big B, yes, the little rifle has no recoil, the 2.5-8 Leupold is plenty for any 250 yard max hunting, i intend to find out what those little slugs will do this season.
Whitetails like grizzlies have evolved over time. To take down an adult whitetail buck you will have to have at minimum a 150 grain bullet traveling at 3550fps at impact. Yea I know so and so has killed them with the ole 06 for years and never had any trouble. Times are changing men , get you a fire breathing magnum dragon.
Yes, when I had a damaged shoulder I used a .223. Killed a 14 pt. 300 Lbs. Buck and several other deer. Blows up the heart and lungs. You have to be more picky about shots but as always, hit them in the heart and they will die quickly. I now use a Tikka bolt action in 7-08 but not afraid to use the .223.
Yes, when I had a damaged shoulder I used a .223. Killed a 14 pt. 300 Lbs. Buck and several other deer. Blows up the heart and lungs. You have to be more picky about shots but as always, hit them in the heart and they will die quickly. I now use a Tikka bolt action in 7-08 but not afraid to use the .223.
Yes, when I had a damaged shoulder I used a .223. Killed a 14 pt. 300 Lbs. Buck and several other deer. Blows up the heart and lungs. You have to be more picky about shots but as always, hit them in the heart and they will die quickly. I now use a Tikka bolt action in 7-08 but not afraid to use the .223.
Yes, when I had a damaged shoulder I used a .223. Killed a 14 pt. 300 Lbs. Buck and several other deer. Blows up the heart and lungs. You have to be more picky about shots but as always, hit them in the heart and they will die quickly. I now use a Tikka bolt action in 7-08 but not afraid to use the .223.
Two consecutive deer I shot last year, one shot with a 16” 223 and one with a 7mm-08. Identical shots identical range. The 223 did more damage.
Yes, when I had a damaged shoulder I used a .223. Killed a 14 pt. 300 Lbs. Buck and several other deer. Blows up the heart and lungs. You have to be more picky about shots but as always, hit them in the heart and they will die quickly. I now use a Tikka bolt action in 7-08 but not afraid to use the .223.
Two consecutive deer I shot last year, one shot with a 16” 223 and one with a 7mm-08. Identical shots identical range. The 223 did more damage.
I personally would not use it for myself, but like others have said, my 9 year old sure appreciates the thrill of the hunt with a real cartridge that can be chambered in a really small rifle. 55gr soft point, it gets it done.
My question is a 53 gr TTSX thru the lungs a bad idea or try for the shoulder at under 100 yds here in the east. I need to drop the deer in my area. My 06 gets the first deer tho, then a doe with 223.
I’d be shooting for bone regardless with a Barnes. They make very narrow wound channels IME. A 55gr Hornady or Speer or a Tipped Matchking will give much more dramatic results on lung shots.
I’d be shooting for bone regardless with a Barnes. They make very narrow wound channels IME. A 55gr Hornady or Speer or a Tipped Matchking will give much more dramatic results on lung shots.
This has been my experience as well. Catch bone with a barnes, especially the smaller caliber ones. They will run a lot farther on a lung shot with a TSX than a similar weight soft point.
I’d be shooting for bone regardless with a Barnes. They make very narrow wound channels IME. A 55gr Hornady or Speer or a Tipped Matchking will give much more dramatic results on lung shots.
I’d be shooting for bone regardless with a Barnes. They make very narrow wound channels IME. A 55gr Hornady or Speer or a Tipped Matchking will give much more dramatic results on lung shots.
So you haven’t used a Barnes you’re saying…
I’m saying I’ve killed a train car full of schit with the 53TSX and it leaves small diameter wound channels.
I’d be shooting for bone regardless with a Barnes. They make very narrow wound channels IME. A 55gr Hornady or Speer or a Tipped Matchking will give much more dramatic results on lung shots.
So you haven’t used a Barnes you’re saying…
I’m saying I’ve killed a train car full of schit with the 53TSX and it leaves small diameter wound channels.
There are two sides in this conversation. Both, think you are talking about the other.😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
I think it's both.
Anyone who would think a 223 won't kill deer is an idiot. 22LR kills tens of thousands of cows ever year. Most, easily.
Don't think many here think it can't work.
They think there are better choices.
Ones that don't require such specific bullet choices. Ones that don't require using marksmanship as a virtue signal.
Not that often a 270 and up, for deer, conversation becomes so focused on bullet. Or there are so many quotes about "It's where you hit 'em, marksmanship first..." Curious that?
Have seen numerous deer shot with a 22-250. Never a fail, big meat loss if the shoulder got hit.
Would try a fast twist 223 just to see what all the fuss is about. Can't use an AR, no interest in buying a bolt just to find a deer rifle. Got that covered from 243-338.
I’d be shooting for bone regardless with a Barnes. They make very narrow wound channels IME. A 55gr Hornady or Speer or a Tipped Matchking will give much more dramatic results on lung shots.
So you haven’t used a Barnes you’re saying…
I’m saying I’ve killed a train car full of schit with the 53TSX and it leaves small diameter wound channels.
I can’t be believe that 2 grains makes a difference. The 55gr ttsx has tiny entrance and exit but the wounding inside is remarkable.
I’d be shooting for bone regardless with a Barnes. They make very narrow wound channels IME. A 55gr Hornady or Speer or a Tipped Matchking will give much more dramatic results on lung shots.
So you haven’t used a Barnes you’re saying…
I’m saying I’ve killed a train car full of schit with the 53TSX and it leaves small diameter wound channels.
I can’t be believe that 2 grains makes a difference. The 55gr ttsx has tiny entrance and exit but the wounding inside is remarkable.
Think he is comparing the wound channel to that of a conventional SP.
There are two sides in this conversation. Both, think you are talking about the other.😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
I think it's both.
Anyone who would think a 223 won't kill deer is an idiot. 22LR kills tens of thousands of cows ever year. Most, easily.
Don't think many here think it can't work.
They think there are better choices.
Ones that don't require such specific bullet choices. Ones that don't require using marksmanship as a virtue signal.
Not that often a 270 and up, for deer, conversation becomes so focused on bullet. Or there are so many quotes about "It's where you hit 'em, marksmanship first..." Curious that?
Have seen numerous deer shot with a 22-250. Never a fail, big meat loss if the shoulder got hit.
Would try a fast twist 223 just to see what all the fuss is about. Can't use an AR, no interest in buying a bolt just to find a deer rifle. Got that covered from 243-338.
No need for fast twist. Any good 55 or 60 grain SP will kill em with no drama.
A deer is not exactly a large animal. A big one around here will be 200-225#, hardly large.
If a guy isn't comfortable using one then don't use it.
I’ve always been bigger is better about most things. If .223 was my only option I wouldn’t hesitate, but I’m not grabbing it when I have plenty of other options in the .243, .264, .284 and .308 options. I’ve seen a [bleep] pile of deer killed with a Winchester 68 .22lr back in the 70’s when I was a kid that dropped in their tracks after taking one in the ear hole. Deer die pretty damn easily if shot placement is correct. It’s the less than perfect shot opportunities that make the difference.
That's what I need to know, I have expanding bullets especially the 60 Partition I'll load.
Will work like you never imagined possible.
The good thing about a Partition is it is very soft so immediate expansion kills quickly.
Not like these tougher bullets everybody wants to use in sub calibers that leave narrow wound channels.
The Partition, Nosler Bonded and Fusion all expand very well and penetrate deeply. They all make mush of soft tissue.
Key reason most people have bad experiences with the smaller calibers from .224 to .257 diameter bullets that are offered in both varmint and thin Skinned big game applications. They throw a light for caliber varmint bullet at a deer and blame the chambering.
Shot a nice whitetail buck tonight with a .222 and 55 grain hollow point gamekings . Broke his neck at 52 yds. Pretty low drama. My boys and I have shot close to 40 deer with this rifle and bullet combo. Some lung shots, but mostly neck, and head shots. Pretty lethal combo. I have alot of confidence in it.
I’d be shooting for bone regardless with a Barnes. They make very narrow wound channels IME. A 55gr Hornady or Speer or a Tipped Matchking will give much more dramatic results on lung shots.
So you haven’t used a Barnes you’re saying…
I’m saying I’ve killed a train car full of schit with the 53TSX and it leaves small diameter wound channels.
I can’t be believe that 2 grains makes a difference. The 55gr ttsx has tiny entrance and exit but the wounding inside is remarkable.
Think he is comparing the wound channel to that of a conventional SP.
I know. The actual wound channel inside is more than I've seen from a conventional SP. The entrance and exits are smaller than a SP, IMO.
Shot a nice whitetail buck tonight with a .222 and 55 grain hollow point gamekings . Broke his neck at 52 yds. Pretty low drama. My boys and I have shot close to 40 deer with this rifle and bullet combo. Some lung shots, but mostly neck, and head shots. Pretty lethal combo. I have alot of confidence in it.
If that bullet works anything like the SBT it's wicked.
We have shot a lot of deer with the SP Game king from 223 up to the Swift. Mainly lungs and its usually instant lights out.
I’d be shooting for bone regardless with a Barnes. They make very narrow wound channels IME. A 55gr Hornady or Speer or a Tipped Matchking will give much more dramatic results on lung shots.
So you haven’t used a Barnes you’re saying…
I’m saying I’ve killed a train car full of schit with the 53TSX and it leaves small diameter wound channels.
I can’t be believe that 2 grains makes a difference. The 55gr ttsx has tiny entrance and exit but the wounding inside is remarkable.
Think he is comparing the wound channel to that of a conventional SP.
I know. The actual wound channel inside is more than I've seen from a conventional SP. The entrance and exits are smaller than a SP, IMO.
And those exits are how to get them to leak.
Not arguing just stating where my preference lies. Most deer I have seen shot with a regular SP or Partition just stiffen up and fall over. Especially when shot with the hotter 22s.
Shot a nice whitetail buck tonight with a .222 and 55 grain hollow point gamekings . Broke his neck at 52 yds. Pretty low drama. My boys and I have shot close to 40 deer with this rifle and bullet combo. Some lung shots, but mostly neck, and head shots. Pretty lethal combo. I have alot of confidence in it.
If that bullet works anything like the SBT it's wicked.
We have shot a lot of deer with the SP Game king from 223 up to the Swift. Mainly lungs and its usually instant lights out.
Shot a nice whitetail buck tonight with a .222 and 55 grain hollow point gamekings . Broke his neck at 52 yds. Pretty low drama. My boys and I have shot close to 40 deer with this rifle and bullet combo. Some lung shots, but mostly neck, and head shots. Pretty lethal combo. I have alot of confidence in it.
If that bullet works anything like the SBT it's wicked.
We have shot a lot of deer with the SP Game king from 223 up to the Swift. Mainly lungs and its usually instant lights out.
I'm going to have to try some SGK's.
I have always had good luck with every Sierra bullet I've tried. Why I try other bullets on occasion I don't know - should just stick with Sierras for everything.
Shot a nice whitetail buck tonight with a .222 and 55 grain hollow point gamekings . Broke his neck at 52 yds. Pretty low drama. My boys and I have shot close to 40 deer with this rifle and bullet combo. Some lung shots, but mostly neck, and head shots. Pretty lethal combo. I have alot of confidence in it.
If that bullet works anything like the SBT it's wicked.
We have shot a lot of deer with the SP Game king from 223 up to the Swift. Mainly lungs and its usually instant lights out.
I'm going to have to try some SGK's.
Never tried the 65 grain flavor yet but may one of these days.
I have a bunch of 62 grain BTSP loaded that I believe are Hornady. They work on hogs but most anything will with the correct shot placement.
That should do just fine Gunner. But you know that.
Shot mine at 200 on Monday. I love that little rifle.
55gr ttsx over 4198.
Good stuff, Thanks T and Big B, yes, the little rifle has no recoil, the 2.5-8 Leupold is plenty for any 250 yard max hunting, i intend to find out what those little slugs will do this season.
Grabbed a Butler Creek cap for the objective, couple camo duct tape wraps around scope tube, that ugly little Ruger American Predator 223 is ready for all weather pig popping, 11 rounds on board of 62gr Bearclaw at 3100 has got to count for something ; ]
One of the biggest grizzlies ever killed was shot by an Indian woman using a 22 LR. Just because a cartridge will kill an animal doesn't mean that it's ideal. I've killed deer with the 223, but why use it when there are far better choices.
I've wondered how many Indian women with 22's have been killed by PO's grizzlies. You hear about stuff like this because it's the exception, not the rule. The other 99% of bear hunters with 22's get hashed but that's expected.
One of the biggest grizzlies ever killed was shot by an Indian woman using a 22 LR. Just because a cartridge will kill an animal doesn't mean that it's ideal. I've killed deer with the 223, but why use it when there are far better choices.
I've wondered how many Indian women with 22's have been killed by PO's grizzlies. You hear about stuff like this because it's the exception, not the rule. The other 99% of bear hunters with 22's get hashed but that's expected.
Leave it to the ‘fire to wander off topic and start arguing about 22 LRs.
One of the biggest grizzlies ever killed was shot by an Indian woman using a 22 LR. Just because a cartridge will kill an animal doesn't mean that it's ideal. I've killed deer with the 223, but why use it when there are far better choices.
I've wondered how many Indian women with 22's have been killed by PO's grizzlies. You hear about stuff like this because it's the exception, not the rule. The other 99% of bear hunters with 22's get hashed but that's expected.
Lots and lots of brown bears that live near villages in the AK bush that are carrying around 22 bullets and birdshot. Not everyone wants to skin and butcher a stinking bear thats tearing up the smokehouse or getting in the garbage. Almost never hear of a villager getting roughed up by a bear.
That should do just fine Gunner. But you know that.
Shot mine at 200 on Monday. I love that little rifle.
55gr ttsx over 4198.
Good stuff, Thanks T and Big B, yes, the little rifle has no recoil, the 2.5-8 Leupold is plenty for any 250 yard max hunting, i intend to find out what those little slugs will do this season.
Grabbed a Butler Creek cap for the objective, couple camo duct tape wraps around scope tube, that ugly little Ruger American Predator 223 is ready for all weather pig popping, 11 rounds on board of 62gr Bearclaw at 3100 has got to count for something ; ]
That should do just fine Gunner. But you know that.
Shot mine at 200 on Monday. I love that little rifle.
55gr ttsx over 4198.
Good stuff, Thanks T and Big B, yes, the little rifle has no recoil, the 2.5-8 Leupold is plenty for any 250 yard max hunting, i intend to find out what those little slugs will do this season.
Grabbed a Butler Creek cap for the objective, couple camo duct tape wraps around scope tube, that ugly little Ruger American Predator 223 is ready for all weather pig popping, 11 rounds on board of 62gr Bearclaw at 3100 has got to count for something ; ]
What powder are you using?
Hey Big T, using 26gr CFE-223 under both 62gr Bearclaw and 64gr Nosler Bonded, velocity is average of both rounds, they also shoot together in a 5 round group of around 1.25 inches, [little windy] plenty good enough for 250 yard max deer/pig hunting.
i put up damn near 800 rounds of these, the new LC Match brass has a bit to fat of an ass for Wifes PSA mid length AR-15 house guns, had a couple FTF checking the rounds for her, had to buy a rifle to shoot them in, that little Ruger bolt eats em up like a fat kid on a dish of butterscotch candy!
Bumping this thread up to the top as it is deer season in full swing….
Anyone having any luck with their 223’s on deer???
Doesn’t work and a terrible idea. Prove me wrong. I won’t believe it unless I see video preferably using. 88gr eld…like anyone would use match bullets on big and bigger game.
Doesn’t work and a terrible idea. Prove me wrong. I won’t believe it unless I see video preferably using. 88gr eld…like anyone would use match bullets on big and bigger game.
You are probably right. Match bullets on bigger game probably isn’t something anyone would do.
*Although*, I did watch this video several times that would indicate otherwise.
Awesome! I can’t log into the other site for some reason to comment. I have a montana and a 1-7” lilja in California right now. Might even have some 88’s. My 88’s are seconds though so I may have to stick to deers. Well that and we don’t have as many moose down south as you might think…haha. Cool video thanks for posting.
Awesome! I can’t log into the other site for some reason to comment. I have a montana and a 1-7” lilja in California right now. Might even have some 88’s. My 88’s are seconds though so I may have to stick to deers. Well that and we don’t have as many moose down south as you might think…haha. Cool video thanks for posting.
I’ve a pair of Montana’s getting the same treatment- CA, Lilja 1-7, 88s.
I’ve a feeling I’ll want the other montana to go in too after getting this one back. I’m glad he’s getting to go a run of them…haha. Maybe that makes it a little bit easier for him.
[/img] Rifles Inc Strata, .223 vanilla, 75 gr Gold Dot, about 100 yards bang flop. I have no idea how many deer, hogs and pronghorns my boys and I have taken with the .223.
my opinion it will work just fine in the hands of an experienced Hunter and shooter when loaded with proper bullet selection. most generic off the wall factory ammo really isn't suitable. and so many in this chambering get given to people without the experience and shooting skill levels to make a good judgment when to shoot and where to shoot let alone have the ability to hit the spot they need to shoot..
Na, a .223 is plenty. Use the right bullet and shoot straight. These does were taken with a single shot each this morning. My son used a 64 gr Gold Dot and I used a 75 gr Gold Dot, both deer were heart lung shots and both ran about 30 yards after the shot.
I was spreading manure on the back pasture and spotted a doe in the timber. She was broadside at first but pivoted around to quartering hard towards me. I decided to take a neck shot. I didn't have a 223 on me but did have a 22-250 slinging 55 grain psp's from Big Green.
my dad used to kill deer with a 22 hornet, at moderate ranges. it worked just fine. hit in the lungs they never ran more than and other thing they were hit with. over the years i have killed too many to remember with 223, 22-250 and 220 swift. i have never lost a deer from one of those rounds and i have killed many! most people that say no have no experience at all shooting deer with a hot 22 high power rifle. a couple of years ago i was overrun with does, they had to be thinned out. i have a friend who has a 17 Remington, i told him i wanted to do an experiment with it. he brought it and we went hunting. he shot a 100LB doe at a measured 100yds behind the shoulder. she bounced off 40yds or so and fell dead. the bullet was a hand loaded 25gr. Hornaday HP. it took out 3 ribs going in, it made liquid out of both lungs. i am not saying a 17 rem. is a deer round, but it didn't bounce off either. this is what it done,,,,,,,,,,,
A friend of mine used to thin the herd on some kind of permit. He used a Rem 700 in 22-250 in a Sendero type configuration, and I think he was using 50 grain Ballistic Tips for rib cage shots. The typical reaction was them tipping over and twitching a bit.
I can't believe the number of self proclaimed experts who say the 223 is anything but fine for deer. Look on paper, it shoots flat, fast and has enough energy. What trait doesn't kill deer?
And those who are trying to virtue signal by saying "yeah it'll work but there's so many better options out there" are even worse! Grow a pair and make a stand on what you think, even if it is wrong. Don't try to shield it with statements like above, sheesh.
A 223 is just fine for deer, which is why we recommend it to kids and small framed people to use if they are recoil shy. 1. There's usually a 223 available to borrow and 2. They flat work and 3. it will be a positive experience.
well i have used many calibers over the decades. and a deer hit with a 22-250, 223, 9 times out of 10 it is like a light switch being turned off! it is the hyper velocity and shock. i shoot a 6mm rem. a good bit, with a 85gr. Sierra gameking BTHP, and it will almost duplicate a 22-250 when it contacts a deer, instant death!
A friend of mine used to thin the herd on some kind of permit. He used a Rem 700 in 22-250 in a Sendero type configuration, and I think he was using 50 grain Ballistic Tips for rib cage shots. The typical reaction was them tipping over and twitching a bit.
My uncle did some of this with Wildlife and Fisheries when they needed some test samples. He took his 22-250 and stuck to lung shots on deer out in the open. He said the effects were typically about what you mention, and the lungs looked like you'd put a small grenade in there.
I'm going to try to find a big doe test sample of my own with the 77GR TMK this weekend. Hogs have been sporadic lately with all the acorns, but I'm interested in how this bullet performs at 5.56 velocity.
Its not hard to see the pattern on the campfire...
For those that never tried it, of course they will say it won't work.
To those that have had a failure they will say it won't work.. They'll blame it on the round, the rifle, the bullet... everything but the clown pulling the trigger... few ever entertain the concept, that a failure was with them, the shooter.... They are really only fooling themselves.
If it can take down a human, what is so much tougher about taking down a deer?
as an addendum to the post about JPro's post above " how will this bullet perform at 5.56 velocity?"
Years ago, I did a trial with some steel plates that were about the size of a 4 x 6 post card, 3/8 an inch thick...
I shot a couple with a 55 gr SP, at a 100 yds, with a charge of 12.5 grains of Blue Dot, for an MV at 2600 fps.
10 rounds penetrated right thru those plates....that surprised me and I did not expect to see that result..
so I threw several of those steel plates in my vehicle and went home to load up ammo, to test Blue Dot MV against, regular military loads for a 223, with 55 grain Bullets at 3150 fps. I loaded up 10 rounds of each... 55 SP at 3150 fps, 55 FMj at 3150 fps, 55 gr SP at 2600 fps ( with Blue Dot) and 55 FMJ at 2600 fps..
What I was not expecting, but DID observe...
All 20 rounds at 3150 fps MV, both FMJ and SP 55 grainers, FAILED to penetrate the steel plates. That just shattered when they hit the plates., all 20 of them, regardless of type of bullet, FMJ or SP.,...
Then the 20 Bullets loaded up with Blue Dot, at 2600 fps MV SUCCESSFULLY penetrated the same plates, and still using Hornady Brand 55 grain bullets, both SP and FMJ.
My conclusions were this...
1. the bullets each have X amount of structural integrity...and so do the Steel Plates.
2. at 3150 fps MV and 100 yds to point of impact, the structural integrity of the steel plates overcame the structural integrity of those bullets, both SP and FMJ.
3. when the MV was slowed down to 2600 fps at the Muzzle, after the 100 yds to the point of impact, the structural integrity of the bullets ( both Sp AND FMJ) were able to overcome the structural integrity of the steel plates, and EACH bullet drilled right thru them.
so with a regular bullet ( non premium type) slow the MV down, and it will INCREASE the bullets ability to penetrate, holding its structural integrity better than at hitting something tough, at a higher velocity....
Kinda the same way I've seen people not recommend a 180 grain Ballistic Tip for hunting elk at 200 yds, shooting it out of a 300 Weatherby or 300 Win Mag, but at the same time, saying its a great bullet to use on elk at 300, 400 and 500 yds.
so my hypothesis would be that the 77 gr TMK would probably work better on penetration of a Louisiana Hog, with a slowed down MV, then it would at pushing it at max velocity, and shooting it at close range... max velocity at a further distance would be a better choice.. so match the bullets capability to a range that its velocity ( and structural integrity) would work best within its parameters... and Here I am guestimating, that more hogs are taken within 200 yds or less, than further out....
We don't have hogs running loose here in Oregon, at least not in my part of the state... so anyone interested will have to test that out for me, if anyone wants any real experienced answer to that question....
but match the bullet to the distance you shoot with a 223, and it will work just fine...
shot an antelope once with a 40 grain ballistic tip, at 4000 fps at the muzzle...yeah, the antelope ran 100 yds, but then dropped like a brick...
not ideal, but it worked... one of those use what ya have, at the time scenarios...
occurs to me that most of the posts here which boost the 223 are from the southern states. That might have something to do with the size of the deer.
My small experience hunting in Arkansas was that the whitetails there were smaller in size. and when viewed from the front were narrower in profile. IMHO the smaller calibers would be fine on the smaller deer, but not so much on the deer we have here in Minnesota.
Several years ago our hunting crew found a recently dead deer in our hunting woods. We cleaned it. it was worth keeping. Someone had shot it with a 223. Mid chest thru the left ribs. We found the bullet. The deer was wounded badly enough that it traveled quite a way before it expired.
Of course almost all center fire rifles will work on deer SOME of the time.
A few years ago the 223 was declared a legal whitetail cartridge Here. I have not heard of one local hunter who thought that was a good idea. Our hunting crew here in east central minnesota has stayed with our 30-06s, our 270s, and one relic 30-30. We like an entry wound and an exit wound.
Hey, if a 223 works well on the general deer population where you live/hunt, then go for it. Especially if you are bringing younger hunters along.
Several years ago our hunting crew found a recently dead deer in our hunting woods. We cleaned it. it was worth keeping. Someone had shot it with a 223. Mid chest thru the left ribs. We found the bullet. The deer was wounded badly enough that it traveled quite a way before it expired.
.
What kind of bullet was it, what vital organs did it hit and what kind of damage was done to the organs?
I can't see a reason why it wouldn't work with the proper load good shot placement and at a reasonable distance. Of course it's a moot point as any round listed as a .22 is illegal for big game in NYS. Thank goodness the nannies who have never hunted get to tell us what we can and can not hunt with in this liberal cesspool.
As with every cartridge out there: Use the right bullet and put it in the right place and it will kill. The 223 is fine for deer, but do not believe it is a good cartridge for a beginner.
I can't see a reason why it wouldn't work with the proper load good shot placement and at a reasonable distance. Of course it's a moot point as any round listed as a .22 is illegal for big game in NYS. Thank goodness the nannies who have never hunted get to tell us what we can and can not hunt with in this liberal cesspool.
I'm going to try to find a big doe test sample of my own with the 77GR TMK this weekend. Hogs have been sporadic lately with all the acorns, but I'm interested in how this bullet performs at 5.56 velocity.
I think you’ll like it. It’s been very good for me between 2700 and 2800 in my 223’s. I don’t get many exits but then again they don’t go anywhere usually, maybe a quick plowing in the ground till a quick death happens.
Weird how so many guys who say they'd shoot any deer alive anywhere in the Country with a .223 also own and deer hunt with 7mm-08's, .308's, .280's, .358's etc. etc.. and many will even proclaim one of those bigger cartridges as their favorite deer cartridge. If the .223 is so great, you'd think it would be their favorite deer cartridge and all their deer rifles would be chambered for it.
Weird how so many guys who say they'd shoot any deer alive anywhere in the Country with a .223 also own and deer hunt with 7mm-08's, .308's, .280's, .358's etc. etc.. and many will even proclaim one of those bigger cartridges as their favorite deer cartridge. If the .223 is so great, you'd think it would be their favorite deer cartridge and all their deer rifles would be chambered for it.
Some of us hunt with a few tags. When I'm deer hunting, I'm elk hunting more often than not. And while I think a 223 is plenty for any deer I'll see at close- and mid-range, I've killed lots of deer at ranges where I'd rather use something with more power. So there's two reasons. Seems to me your thinking is quite limited by your own experience.
I can't see a reason why it wouldn't work with the proper load good shot placement and at a reasonable distance. Of course it's a moot point as any round listed as a .22 is illegal for big game in NYS. Thank goodness the nannies who have never hunted get to tell us what we can and can not hunt with in this liberal cesspool.
It’s absolutely legal to use an CF rifle in NYS
This never use to be but they've made a lot of changes to the regulations in the last 2 years. Use to be nothing smaller than a 243 was legit for big game. Now the only restriction is no 22 or 17 rimfires for big game. Doesn't matter NY still sucks and it's a great place to leave.
Weird how so many guys who say they'd shoot any deer alive anywhere in the Country with a .223 also own and deer hunt with 7mm-08's, .308's, .280's, .358's etc. etc.. and many will even proclaim one of those bigger cartridges as their favorite deer cartridge. If the .223 is so great, you'd think it would be their favorite deer cartridge and all their deer rifles would be chambered for it.
Some of us hunt with a few tags. When I'm deer hunting, I'm elk hunting more often than not. And while I think a 223 is plenty for any deer I'll see at close- and mid-range, I've killed lots of deer at ranges where I'd rather use something with more power. So there's two reasons. Seems to me your thinking is quite limited by your own experience.
I've probably killed more deer with .22 cf's than most here, starting with a .222 back in 1991, the .223 in '92 and the .22-250 in '94. I've killed well over 200 deer at ranges from hard off the muzzle to 440 yards. I've killed them from tree stands, ground blinds, still hunting, tracking, deer drives and spot and stalk. The .223 works surprisingly well. It is not my favorite deer cartridge and I don't think it's the best either.
I can't see a reason why it wouldn't work with the proper load good shot placement and at a reasonable distance. Of course it's a moot point as any round listed as a .22 is illegal for big game in NYS. Thank goodness the nannies who have never hunted get to tell us what we can and can not hunt with in this liberal cesspool.
It’s absolutely legal to use an CF rifle in NYS
This never use to be but they've made a lot of changes to the regulations in the last 2 years. Use to be nothing smaller than a 243 was legit for big game. Now the only restriction is no 22 or 17 rimfires for big game. Doesn't matter NY still sucks and it's a great place to leave.
I've been deer hunting in NY since 1977 and the .22 center fires have always been legal.. New York only sucks because dipshyt liberal down Staters keep voting communist ass holes into office.
Weird how so many guys who say they'd shoot any deer alive anywhere in the Country with a .223 also own and deer hunt with 7mm-08's, .308's, .280's, .358's etc. etc.. and many will even proclaim one of those bigger cartridges as their favorite deer cartridge. If the .223 is so great, you'd think it would be their favorite deer cartridge and all their deer rifles would be chambered for it.
The OP's question wasn't what's the best but twist it however works for ya.
Original question:
Originally Posted by Triggernosis
Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
Weird how so many guys who say they'd shoot any deer alive anywhere in the Country with a .223 also own and deer hunt with 7mm-08's, .308's, .280's, .358's etc. etc.. and many will even proclaim one of those bigger cartridges as their favorite deer cartridge. If the .223 is so great, you'd think it would be their favorite deer cartridge and all their deer rifles would be chambered for it.
The OP's question wasn't what's the best but twist it however works for ya.
Original question:
Originally Posted by Triggernosis
Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
Weird how so many guys who say they'd shoot any deer alive anywhere in the Country with a .223 also own and deer hunt with 7mm-08's, .308's, .280's, .358's etc. etc.. and many will even proclaim one of those bigger cartridges as their favorite deer cartridge. If the .223 is so great, you'd think it would be their favorite deer cartridge and all their deer rifles would be chambered for it.
The OP's question wasn't what's the best but twist it however works for ya.
Original question:
Originally Posted by Triggernosis
Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
You bring up an excellent point. There are many circumstances where I deem a 223 to absolutely be the best for a deer hunt. Which is why the 223 gets hunted. If I thought something else was better, I'd be an idiot to keep hunting and advocating for hunting with a 223.
Weird how so many guys who say they'd shoot any deer alive anywhere in the Country with a .223 also own and deer hunt with 7mm-08's, .308's, .280's, .358's etc. etc.. and many will even proclaim one of those bigger cartridges as their favorite deer cartridge. If the .223 is so great, you'd think it would be their favorite deer cartridge and all their deer rifles would be chambered for it.
The OP's question wasn't what's the best but twist it however works for ya.
Original question:
Originally Posted by Triggernosis
Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
The .22LR is "adequate" under certain circumstances if you can hit where you aim. I proved that on the first deer I ever killed when I was 12 years old and several more thereafter.
Weird how so many guys who say they'd shoot any deer alive anywhere in the Country with a .223 also own and deer hunt with 7mm-08's, .308's, .280's, .358's etc. etc.. and many will even proclaim one of those bigger cartridges as their favorite deer cartridge. If the .223 is so great, you'd think it would be their favorite deer cartridge and all their deer rifles would be chambered for it.
The OP's question wasn't what's the best but twist it however works for ya.
Original question:
Originally Posted by Triggernosis
Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
You bring up an excellent point. There are many circumstances where I deem a 223 to absolutely be the best for a deer hunt. Which is why the 223 gets hunted. If I thought something else was better, I'd be an idiot to keep hunting and advocating for hunting with a 223.
What would some of those circumstances be ? What advantages does it offer if you don't have a shoulder as tender as that of a young, virgin maiden and can shoot something bigger just as well ?
Weird how so many guys who say they'd shoot any deer alive anywhere in the Country with a .223 also own and deer hunt with 7mm-08's, .308's, .280's, .358's etc. etc.. and many will even proclaim one of those bigger cartridges as their favorite deer cartridge. If the .223 is so great, you'd think it would be their favorite deer cartridge and all their deer rifles would be chambered for it.
The OP's question wasn't what's the best but twist it however works for ya.
Original question:
Originally Posted by Triggernosis
Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
You bring up an excellent point. There are many circumstances where I deem a 223 to absolutely be the best for a deer hunt. Which is why the 223 gets hunted. If I thought something else was better, I'd be an idiot to keep hunting and advocating for hunting with a 223.
What would some of those circumstances be ? What advantages does it offer if you don't have a shoulder as tender as that of a young, virgin maiden and can shoot something bigger just as well ?
You are making it into an argument about masculinity?
It ain't all about you and me.
Speaking of childishness...that's one of those circumstances: I don't demand my 11 year old, 70 lb daughter "be a man," and shoot 150gr bullets at 3 grand+ to kill 150lb meat buck at 80 yards. Or my rather skinny nephews, who don't shoot often and don't like recoil. Or my 10 year old son, when he was terrified of recoil. Drama-free, no flinch-building, no trauma. Just dead animals and everyone all smiles. The fuucking BEST.
Weird how so many guys who say they'd shoot any deer alive anywhere in the Country with a .223 also own and deer hunt with 7mm-08's, .308's, .280's, .358's etc. etc.. and many will even proclaim one of those bigger cartridges as their favorite deer cartridge. If the .223 is so great, you'd think it would be their favorite deer cartridge and all their deer rifles would be chambered for it.
The OP's question wasn't what's the best but twist it however works for ya.
Original question:
Originally Posted by Triggernosis
Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
You bring up an excellent point. There are many circumstances where I deem a 223 to absolutely be the best for a deer hunt. Which is why the 223 gets hunted. If I thought something else was better, I'd be an idiot to keep hunting and advocating for hunting with a 223.
What would some of those circumstances be ? What advantages does it offer if you don't have a shoulder as tender as that of a young, virgin maiden and can shoot something bigger just as well ?
Weird how so many guys who say they'd shoot any deer alive anywhere in the Country with a .223 also own and deer hunt with 7mm-08's, .308's, .280's, .358's etc. etc.. and many will even proclaim one of those bigger cartridges as their favorite deer cartridge. If the .223 is so great, you'd think it would be their favorite deer cartridge and all their deer rifles would be chambered for it.
The OP's question wasn't what's the best but twist it however works for ya.
Original question:
Originally Posted by Triggernosis
Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
You bring up an excellent point. There are many circumstances where I deem a 223 to absolutely be the best for a deer hunt. Which is why the 223 gets hunted. If I thought something else was better, I'd be an idiot to keep hunting and advocating for hunting with a 223.
What would some of those circumstances be ? What advantages does it offer if you don't have a shoulder as tender as that of a young, virgin maiden and can shoot something bigger just as well ?
You are making it into an argument about masculinity?
It ain't all about you and me.
Speaking of childishness...that's one of those circumstances: I don't demand my 11 year old, 70 lb daughter "be a man," and shoot 150gr bullets at 3 grand+ to kill 150lb meat buck at 80 yards. Or my rather skinny nephews, who don't shoot often and don't like recoil. Or my 10 year old son, when he was terrified of recoil. Drama-free, no flinch-building, no trauma. Just dead animals and everyone all smiles. The fuucking BEST.
I believe I said if you don't have a tender shoulder dumb ass. Yes it will get the job done for someone who can't tolerate much recoil. For someone who can, I don't see it offering any advantage over something bigger.
Weird how so many guys who say they'd shoot any deer alive anywhere in the Country with a .223 also own and deer hunt with 7mm-08's, .308's, .280's, .358's etc. etc.. and many will even proclaim one of those bigger cartridges as their favorite deer cartridge. If the .223 is so great, you'd think it would be their favorite deer cartridge and all their deer rifles would be chambered for it.
The OP's question wasn't what's the best but twist it however works for ya.
Original question:
Originally Posted by Triggernosis
Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
You bring up an excellent point. There are many circumstances where I deem a 223 to absolutely be the best for a deer hunt. Which is why the 223 gets hunted. If I thought something else was better, I'd be an idiot to keep hunting and advocating for hunting with a 223.
What would some of those circumstances be ? What advantages does it offer if you don't have a shoulder as tender as that of a young, virgin maiden and can shoot something bigger just as well ?
Weird how so many guys who say they'd shoot any deer alive anywhere in the Country with a .223 also own and deer hunt with 7mm-08's, .308's, .280's, .358's etc. etc.. and many will even proclaim one of those bigger cartridges as their favorite deer cartridge. If the .223 is so great, you'd think it would be their favorite deer cartridge and all their deer rifles would be chambered for it.
The OP's question wasn't what's the best but twist it however works for ya.
Original question:
Originally Posted by Triggernosis
Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
You bring up an excellent point. There are many circumstances where I deem a 223 to absolutely be the best for a deer hunt. Which is why the 223 gets hunted. If I thought something else was better, I'd be an idiot to keep hunting and advocating for hunting with a 223.
What would some of those circumstances be ? What advantages does it offer if you don't have a shoulder as tender as that of a young, virgin maiden and can shoot something bigger just as well ?
Advantage? EVERYONE shoots a 223 better than they do a higher recoiling round.
Weird how so many guys who say they'd shoot any deer alive anywhere in the Country with a .223 also own and deer hunt with 7mm-08's, .308's, .280's, .358's etc. etc.. and many will even proclaim one of those bigger cartridges as their favorite deer cartridge. If the .223 is so great, you'd think it would be their favorite deer cartridge and all their deer rifles would be chambered for it.
The OP's question wasn't what's the best but twist it however works for ya.
Original question:
Originally Posted by Triggernosis
Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
You bring up an excellent point. There are many circumstances where I deem a 223 to absolutely be the best for a deer hunt. Which is why the 223 gets hunted. If I thought something else was better, I'd be an idiot to keep hunting and advocating for hunting with a 223.
What would some of those circumstances be ? What advantages does it offer if you don't have a shoulder as tender as that of a young, virgin maiden and can shoot something bigger just as well ?
You are making it into an argument about masculinity?
It ain't all about you and me.
Speaking of childishness...that's one of those circumstances: I don't demand my 11 year old, 70 lb daughter "be a man," and shoot 150gr bullets at 3 grand+ to kill 150lb meat buck at 80 yards. Or my rather skinny nephews, who don't shoot often and don't like recoil. Or my 10 year old son, when he was terrified of recoil. Drama-free, no flinch-building, no trauma. Just dead animals and everyone all smiles. The fuucking BEST.
I believe I said if you don't have a tender shoulder dumb ass. Yes it will get the job done for someone who can't tolerate much recoil. For someone who can, I don't see it offering any advantage over something bigger.
Let's do a shoot-off at 250yards from field positions. You bring the biggest gun you shoot at deer, and I'll bring a 223.
Weird how so many guys who say they'd shoot any deer alive anywhere in the Country with a .223 also own and deer hunt with 7mm-08's, .308's, .280's, .358's etc. etc.. and many will even proclaim one of those bigger cartridges as their favorite deer cartridge. If the .223 is so great, you'd think it would be their favorite deer cartridge and all their deer rifles would be chambered for it.
The OP's question wasn't what's the best but twist it however works for ya.
Original question:
Originally Posted by Triggernosis
Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
You bring up an excellent point. There are many circumstances where I deem a 223 to absolutely be the best for a deer hunt. Which is why the 223 gets hunted. If I thought something else was better, I'd be an idiot to keep hunting and advocating for hunting with a 223.
What would some of those circumstances be ? What advantages does it offer if you don't have a shoulder as tender as that of a young, virgin maiden and can shoot something bigger just as well ?
Advantage? EVERYONE shoots a 223 better than they do a higher recoiling round.
I know I do. It requires far less focus, and it's just a less violent experience. I can shoot, shoot again, shoot again, with ease and precision. I can even see my impacts if I do focus.
Weird how so many guys who say they'd shoot any deer alive anywhere in the Country with a .223 also own and deer hunt with 7mm-08's, .308's, .280's, .358's etc. etc.. and many will even proclaim one of those bigger cartridges as their favorite deer cartridge. If the .223 is so great, you'd think it would be their favorite deer cartridge and all their deer rifles would be chambered for it.
The OP's question wasn't what's the best but twist it however works for ya.
Original question:
Originally Posted by Triggernosis
Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
You bring up an excellent point. There are many circumstances where I deem a 223 to absolutely be the best for a deer hunt. Which is why the 223 gets hunted. If I thought something else was better, I'd be an idiot to keep hunting and advocating for hunting with a 223.
What would some of those circumstances be ? What advantages does it offer if you don't have a shoulder as tender as that of a young, virgin maiden and can shoot something bigger just as well ?
Advantage? EVERYONE shoots a 223 better than they do a higher recoiling round.
I can shoot tighter groups with my 6.5 Creedmoor or my .243 than with my .223.
Weird how so many guys who say they'd shoot any deer alive anywhere in the Country with a .223 also own and deer hunt with 7mm-08's, .308's, .280's, .358's etc. etc.. and many will even proclaim one of those bigger cartridges as their favorite deer cartridge. If the .223 is so great, you'd think it would be their favorite deer cartridge and all their deer rifles would be chambered for it.
Some of us hunt with a few tags. When I'm deer hunting, I'm elk hunting more often than not. And while I think a 223 is plenty for any deer I'll see at close- and mid-range, I've killed lots of deer at ranges where I'd rather use something with more power. So there's two reasons. Seems to me your thinking is quite limited by your own experience.
I've probably killed more deer with .22 cf's than most here, starting with a .222 back in 1991, the .223 in '92 and the .22-250 in '94. I've killed well over 200 deer at ranges from hard off the muzzle to 440 yards. I've killed them from tree stands, ground blinds, still hunting, tracking, deer drives and spot and stalk. The .223 works surprisingly well. It is not my favorite deer cartridge and I don't think it's the best either.
Weird how so many guys who say they'd shoot any deer alive anywhere in the Country with a .223 also own and deer hunt with 7mm-08's, .308's, .280's, .358's etc. etc.. and many will even proclaim one of those bigger cartridges as their favorite deer cartridge. If the .223 is so great, you'd think it would be their favorite deer cartridge and all their deer rifles would be chambered for it.
The OP's question wasn't what's the best but twist it however works for ya.
Original question:
Originally Posted by Triggernosis
Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
You bring up an excellent point. There are many circumstances where I deem a 223 to absolutely be the best for a deer hunt. Which is why the 223 gets hunted. If I thought something else was better, I'd be an idiot to keep hunting and advocating for hunting with a 223.
What would some of those circumstances be ? What advantages does it offer if you don't have a shoulder as tender as that of a young, virgin maiden and can shoot something bigger just as well ?
Advantage? EVERYONE shoots a 223 better than they do a higher recoiling round.
I know I do. It requires far less focus, and it's just a less violent experience. I can shoot, shoot again, shoot again, with ease and precision. I can even see my impacts if I do focus.
How many times do you need to shoot your deer ? I killed three this season and only shot three times. Didn't notice any recoil on any of them.
I shoot very well with cartridges up to 30-06/7MM remington mag. There is no reason not to be able to make good hits with a 7-08. I have shot many feral hogs with 223 rifles. A bunch of deer. The hogs, some got away or were allowed to expire wherever they fell. A lot died pretty quick because I often used the 55 gr. FMJ and went for solid spine, neck,head hits. Might sound crazy but the XM193 round was a pretty good general purpose round. That said my absolute favorite deer or hog guns are the 7x57 and 7-08. In some parts of Texas and a lot of wildlife management people use the AR15 for all the gun chores. For me to say no for the 223 as a deer gun I can't do it , just that I like just a little more gun. I consider the 243 a step up and much better for over 150 yard shooting.
Weird how so many guys who say they'd shoot any deer alive anywhere in the Country with a .223 also own and deer hunt with 7mm-08's, .308's, .280's, .358's etc. etc.. and many will even proclaim one of those bigger cartridges as their favorite deer cartridge. If the .223 is so great, you'd think it would be their favorite deer cartridge and all their deer rifles would be chambered for it.
The OP's question wasn't what's the best but twist it however works for ya.
Original question:
Originally Posted by Triggernosis
Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
You bring up an excellent point. There are many circumstances where I deem a 223 to absolutely be the best for a deer hunt. Which is why the 223 gets hunted. If I thought something else was better, I'd be an idiot to keep hunting and advocating for hunting with a 223.
What would some of those circumstances be ? What advantages does it offer if you don't have a shoulder as tender as that of a young, virgin maiden and can shoot something bigger just as well ?
Advantage? EVERYONE shoots a 223 better than they do a higher recoiling round.
I know I do. It requires far less focus, and it's just a less violent experience. I can shoot, shoot again, shoot again, with ease and precision. I can even see my impacts if I do focus.
How many times do you need to shoot your deer ? I killed three this season and only shot three times. Didn't notice any recoil on any of them.
Depends on the deer, the range, the conditions, etc. Nearly always just once, but I'm not the one doing most of the shooting for most of the hunting I do anymore. Imagine that....it's not about me. I didn't even kill a deer this year. I got others on their deer.
Every deer that has been killed by 223 where I have been present has required one shot. And none made it out of sight before dropping. I don't even know how many now. At least in the 20's now. Most of those have been various kids. But I killed several with various bullets before I started advocating that the kids use them.
What an absurd discussion. I'm going to bring Bell into it, just to top it off. The reasons I advocate for using a 223 for animals up to 300 lbs and out to 300 yds are exactly the same reasons Bell advocated using small, light, handy, easy-recoiling, easy-to-shoot rifles at animals that weigh more than 50 deer each.
Weird how so many guys who say they'd shoot any deer alive anywhere in the Country with a .223 also own and deer hunt with 7mm-08's, .308's, .280's, .358's etc. etc.. and many will even proclaim one of those bigger cartridges as their favorite deer cartridge. If the .223 is so great, you'd think it would be their favorite deer cartridge and all their deer rifles would be chambered for it.
Some of us hunt with a few tags. When I'm deer hunting, I'm elk hunting more often than not. And while I think a 223 is plenty for any deer I'll see at close- and mid-range, I've killed lots of deer at ranges where I'd rather use something with more power. So there's two reasons. Seems to me your thinking is quite limited by your own experience.
I've probably killed more deer with .22 cf's than most here, starting with a .222 back in 1991, the .223 in '92 and the .22-250 in '94. I've killed well over 200 deer at ranges from hard off the muzzle to 440 yards. I've killed them from tree stands, ground blinds, still hunting, tracking, deer drives and spot and stalk. The .223 works surprisingly well. It is not my favorite deer cartridge and I don't think it's the best either.
Weird how so many guys who say they'd shoot any deer alive anywhere in the Country with a .223 also own and deer hunt with 7mm-08's, .308's, .280's, .358's etc. etc.. and many will even proclaim one of those bigger cartridges as their favorite deer cartridge. If the .223 is so great, you'd think it would be their favorite deer cartridge and all their deer rifles would be chambered for it.
The OP's question wasn't what's the best but twist it however works for ya.
Original question:
Originally Posted by Triggernosis
Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
You bring up an excellent point. There are many circumstances where I deem a 223 to absolutely be the best for a deer hunt. Which is why the 223 gets hunted. If I thought something else was better, I'd be an idiot to keep hunting and advocating for hunting with a 223.
What would some of those circumstances be ? What advantages does it offer if you don't have a shoulder as tender as that of a young, virgin maiden and can shoot something bigger just as well ?
Advantage? EVERYONE shoots a 223 better than they do a higher recoiling round.
I can shoot tighter groups with my 6.5 Creedmoor or my .243 than with my .223.
It's a well established fact that with rifles that are equally accurate, mortal people will shoot better with the milder recoiling rounds. Formidolosis runs thousands of shooters through his courses. He'll tell you the exact same thing.
Weird how so many guys who say they'd shoot any deer alive anywhere in the Country with a .223 also own and deer hunt with 7mm-08's, .308's, .280's, .358's etc. etc.. and many will even proclaim one of those bigger cartridges as their favorite deer cartridge. If the .223 is so great, you'd think it would be their favorite deer cartridge and all their deer rifles would be chambered for it.
The OP's question wasn't what's the best but twist it however works for ya.
Original question:
Originally Posted by Triggernosis
Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
You bring up an excellent point. There are many circumstances where I deem a 223 to absolutely be the best for a deer hunt. Which is why the 223 gets hunted. If I thought something else was better, I'd be an idiot to keep hunting and advocating for hunting with a 223.
What would some of those circumstances be ? What advantages does it offer if you don't have a shoulder as tender as that of a young, virgin maiden and can shoot something bigger just as well ?
Advantage? EVERYONE shoots a 223 better than they do a higher recoiling round.
I can shoot tighter groups with my 6.5 Creedmoor or my .243 than with my .223.
It's a well established fact that with rifles that are equally accurate, mortal people will shoot better with the milder recoiling rounds. Formidolosis runs thousands of shooters through his courses. He'll tell you the exact same thing.
I don't much care what formidolosus says. I know what I can do with my rifles and where my recoil tolerance threshold is.
Blackheart hasn’t killed anything besides newborn puppies and kittens. Don’t waste your time on him.
You don't know a goddam thing about me or much of anything else you worthless little pig fuggin pissant so why don't you do the world a favor and just STFU.
I’m really at a loss in understanding how any experienced hunter that’s killed enough animals, not fathoming the .223 being adequate to kill a whitetail.
Folks need to put grandpappy’s perspectives in the rear view mirror.
Blackheart hasn’t killed anything besides newborn puppies and kittens. Don’t waste your time on him.
You don't know a goddam thing about me or much of anything else you worthless little pig fuggin pissant so why don't you do the world a favor and just STFU.
I have an idea. I'm gonna buy a baby sheep doll off Amazon and ship to you. You put a red push pin on the doll where you've been hurt. Return to sender and therapy will be on the way.
I’m really at a loss in understanding how any experienced hunter that’s killed enough animals, not fathoming the .223 not being adequate to kill a whitetail.
Folks need to put grandpappy’s perspectives in the rear view mirror.
Shoot, where I grew up, the 222 and 222 Mag were big medicine. Still wouldn’t give it a thought if that’s what I had or wanted to use.
IMHO the smaller calibers would be fine on the smaller deer, but not so much on the deer we have here in Minnesota.
There isn't a deer in North America that I'd hesitate to vent with a .223.
The .223 is my favorite deer, varmint, predator, target, and fun cartridge. There is no deer extant I would be afraid to take with the proper bullet out to 300 yards. Every deer here was killed with a single shot from a 223, 22-250 or .357 magnum. Their just deer! [/url]
IMHO the smaller calibers would be fine on the smaller deer, but not so much on the deer we have here in Minnesota.
There isn't a deer in North America that I'd hesitate to vent with a .223.
The .223 is my favorite deer, varmint, predator, target, and fun cartridge. There is no deer extant I would be afraid to take with the proper bullet out to 300 yards. Every deer here was killed with a single shot from a 223, 22-250 or .357 magnum. Their just deer! [/url]
Great photos! Love looking at happy youngsters posing with their animals! Congratulations!
IMHO the smaller calibers would be fine on the smaller deer, but not so much on the deer we have here in Minnesota.
There isn't a deer in North America that I'd hesitate to vent with a .223.
The .223 is my favorite deer, varmint, predator, target, and fun cartridge. There is no deer extant I would be afraid to take with the proper bullet out to 300 yards. Every deer here was killed with a single shot from a 223, 22-250 or .357 magnum. Their just deer! [/url]
Great photos! Love looking at happy youngsters posing with their animals! Congratulations!
for handloading a great projectile for the 222 all the way up to 220 swift is the WW power point sp. they have a thick jacket, and they will mushroom to perfection and kills deer very nicely. i know they may be impossible to come by now, but i have about 500 of them, one day i will put them to good use. for years in the 70s in a 22-250 i used a speer 70gr. semi pointed sp. they worked well, then i found out the Hornaday 60gr. flat base HP had a thick jacket and in there 1979 loading manual they even recommended it for deer out of a 22-250, i started using it and i killed a truck load of deer with that bullet,,,,,,,,,,,,
I’m really at a loss in understanding how any experienced hunter that’s killed enough animals, not fathoming the .223 being adequate to kill a whitetail.
Folks need to put grandpappy’s perspectives in the rear view mirror.
Shoot, where I grew up, the 222 and 222 Mag were big medicine. Still wouldn’t give it a thought if that’s what I had or wanted to use.
Exactly. Because it worked - and people did so by trial/experience, not opinion.
My state is filled with hunters that have never killed a deer with anything but their trusty 30.06 yet still have all kinds of opinions on what won't work for killing deer.
Deer hunting is steeped in tradition here (like many places around the country). It's also steeped in a lot of bullszchit that's been passed down over the years based on opinion rather than experience.
I’m sure it’s covered in the many pages, yes the 223 will kill deer.
Let’s say you have a 175 yard shot at that nice 10 pointer, not an ideal presentation. OBTW, the deer is 50 yards from the adjoining landowner’s line, who you don’t get along great with. I don’t think the 223 would be great in that scenario.
Another thing, say you book a hunt with a Kansas deer outfitter. When you talk guns you say you plan on bringing a 223. I’d think most would think of that as a little lite.
If you’re on the back 40 in the box blind, shooting semi-tame deer at 30-50 yards, yes the 223 is just fine. I agree it’s good for more than that, just saying, I think one can find instances where it comes up short.
One year we dealt with 5 deer that were dead or wounded from the neighbors hunting efforts. I realize on the forums everyone usually anchors their deer, one shot. Oh course none of the 5 deer mentioned were likely hit with a 223.
It's a well established fact that with rifles that are equally accurate, mortal people will shoot better with the milder recoiling rounds. Formidolosis runs thousands of shooters through his courses. He'll tell you the exact same thing.
These are with my .340 Wby at 100 yds. I must be really super amazing with a .223, given the "well-established fact."
My daughter was extremely shy about rifles. We’d spent a bunch of time with 22’s and she was an excellent shot. When it came time to deer hunt I tried to get her to use a reduced load in a 243. It was no joy.
Luckily an old fella let us borrow a 222 Rem and I’d loaded up some 50 BTs that she loved to shoot. It worked fine for her. Different strokes for different folks. I like them all, as long as it is legal.
My younger son took his first deer 5 years ago with the .243 Hornady reduced-recoil loads, which have about the same energy as a .223. One shot at 130 yards, and it dropped in its tracks.
some say there are better choices than 223 and such, well, it is hard to argue with all the photos of dead deer! it don't get no better than dead,,,,,,,,,,,,,
One of my first hunts as a teenager was close to Uvalde Texas. While deer hunting a big 275 lb Russian boar came from my right to left offering a trotting 300 yd broadside shot. My dad taught me how to shoot and gave me plenty of opportunities to practice at a 300 yd rifle range close to home. I was carrying a model 70 30-06 with handloaded 200gr Sierra Gamekings. I'm glad my dad didn't stick a 223 in my hands prior to that hunt. Didn't see any deer that hunt, but I came home with bacon. For heavier game at longer range there's no way I'd choose to carry a varmint round.
I’ve killed a few with a .223 and my son shot his first deer ever several years ago. All 4 were bang…flops. 50grain GMX and a couple were black hills 69 grn HP
My younger son took his first deer 5 years ago with the .243 Hornady reduced-recoil loads, which have about the same energy as a .223. One shot at 130 yards, and it dropped in its tracks.
That smile says it all. Got several pics of my son with that same shiit-eating grin. I treasure those moments more than any kill I ever made.
One of my first hunts as a teenager was close to Uvalde Texas. While deer hunting a big 275 lb Russian boar came from my right to left offering a trotting 300 yd broadside shot. My dad taught me how to shoot and gave me plenty of opportunities to practice at a 300 yd rifle range close to home. I was carrying a model 70 30-06 with handloaded 200gr Sierra Gamekings. I'm glad my dad didn't stick a 223 in my hands prior to that hunt. Didn't see any deer that hunt, but I came home with bacon. For heavier game at longer range there's no way I'd choose to carry a varmint round.
The 30-06 was designed as an anti-personnel combat round. Just like the 223. Hmmm. I see you chose a different bullet than that for which the cartridge was designed, to capitalize on its potential as a hunting cartridge. Exactly what I do with 223. Interesting. Varmint round? You pulled that out of your ass.
One of my first hunts as a teenager was close to Uvalde Texas. While deer hunting a big 275 lb Russian boar came from my right to left offering a trotting 300 yd broadside shot. My dad taught me how to shoot and gave me plenty of opportunities to practice at a 300 yd rifle range close to home. I was carrying a model 70 30-06 with handloaded 200gr Sierra Gamekings. I'm glad my dad didn't stick a 223 in my hands prior to that hunt. Didn't see any deer that hunt, but I came home with bacon. For heavier game at longer range there's no way I'd choose to carry a varmint round.
How does shooting a pig with a 30-06 relate to the question at hand in this thread?
6mm CM on the left and .223 on the right.
Both worked just fine with similar shot placement.
My niece got her first deer with a 223. I sighted in my neighbors 223 so his nephew could shoot a deer on his farm and he got one. It works, and obviously very well from all of these posts. It's always been a varmint/fur cartridge in my hands. My dad's favorite cartridge for deer is the 22-250 Rem. It's ok as long as the proper bullets are used. I wouldn't use fragmenting bullets as intended for varmints on anything that would be eaten. Only once have I bit down on a chunk of lead in a perfectly good venison roast. After that I've been very particular about what bullets get used for deer. The newer/better bullets have changed the game and the 223 of the 80s and 90s isn't the same as what's available today.
I have no doubt that if the bullet is placed in the boiler room behind the shoulder that a .223 Rem will kill any deer alive out to 250 yards. They aren't bullet proof. If I were to do it it would be a fast twisted gun with a heavier that "standard" bullet. Or at least twisted fast enough to reliably stabilize a 60 gr. Nosler Partition. It wouldn't be what I choose for anything other than broadside or quartering away shots. Which is why I don't hunt with one. They will kill deer, no doubt. Will they kill a deer under less that good conditions? That's I'm not so sure about. But then again, I've never tried.
It wouldn’t be my first choice but with a proper bullet I wouldn’t feel under gunned. Shot placement beats raw power I feel. I wouldn’t try any Texas heart shots or a hard angling away shot either. An undisturbed broadside shot would be meat on the ground.
I’m really at a loss in understanding how any experienced hunter that’s killed enough animals, not fathoming the .223 being adequate to kill a whitetail.
Folks need to put grandpappy’s perspectives in the rear view mirror.
Shoot, where I grew up, the 222 and 222 Mag were big medicine. Still wouldn’t give it a thought if that’s what I had or wanted to use.
Exactly. Because it worked - and people did so by trial/experience, not opinion.
My state is filled with hunters that have never killed a deer with anything but their trusty 30.06 yet still have all kinds of opinions on what won't work for killing deer.
Deer hunting is steeped in tradition here (like many places around the country). It's also steeped in a lot of bullszchit that's been passed down over the years based on opinion rather than experience.
I used to hunt in a deer camp where the owner told me that I needed a 30-06 with 220 gr RN bullets for the brush shooting. Years later he made the same comment while my father and I were hanging up my buck that I had taken with a 264 120 grain X bullet. I just told him that I didn't come up there to shoot brush, I came there to shoot deer. When my son was 9, I started him with a 223. We didn't have any success, but that was the guide's fault. Once he got older, I bought him a 243. Not because I didn't have confidence in 223, I just wanted it back. One of these years, I'm going to see first hand what the 223 will do. A long shot where I hunt is 150 yds.
Weird how so many guys who say they'd shoot any deer alive anywhere in the Country with a .223 also own and deer hunt with 7mm-08's, .308's, .280's, .358's etc. etc.. and many will even proclaim one of those bigger cartridges as their favorite deer cartridge. If the .223 is so great, you'd think it would be their favorite deer cartridge and all their deer rifles would be chambered for it.
Some of us hunt with a few tags. When I'm deer hunting, I'm elk hunting more often than not. And while I think a 223 is plenty for any deer I'll see at close- and mid-range, I've killed lots of deer at ranges where I'd rather use something with more power. So there's two reasons. Seems to me your thinking is quite limited by your own experience.
I've probably killed more deer with .22 cf's than most here, starting with a .222 back in 1991, the .223 in '92 and the .22-250 in '94. I've killed well over 200 deer at ranges from hard off the muzzle to 440 yards. I've killed them from tree stands, ground blinds, still hunting, tracking, deer drives and spot and stalk. The .223 works surprisingly well. It is not my favorite deer cartridge and I don't think it's the best either.
I’m really at a loss in understanding how any experienced hunter that’s killed enough animals, not fathoming the .223 being adequate to kill a whitetail.
Folks need to put grandpappy’s perspectives in the rear view mirror.
Shoot, where I grew up, the 222 and 222 Mag were big medicine. Still wouldn’t give it a thought if that’s what I had or wanted to use.
Exactly. Because it worked - and people did so by trial/experience, not opinion.
My state is filled with hunters that have never killed a deer with anything but their trusty 30.06 yet still have all kinds of opinions on what won't work for killing deer.
Deer hunting is steeped in tradition here (like many places around the country). It's also steeped in a lot of bullszchit that's been passed down over the years based on opinion rather than experience.
They’re the same guys that use 180gr so the bust the brush.
I’m really at a loss in understanding how any experienced hunter that’s killed enough animals, not fathoming the .223 being adequate to kill a whitetail.
Folks need to put grandpappy’s perspectives in the rear view mirror.
Shoot, where I grew up, the 222 and 222 Mag were big medicine. Still wouldn’t give it a thought if that’s what I had or wanted to use.
Exactly. Because it worked - and people did so by trial/experience, not opinion.
My state is filled with hunters that have never killed a deer with anything but their trusty 30.06 yet still have all kinds of opinions on what won't work for killing deer.
Deer hunting is steeped in tradition here (like many places around the country). It's also steeped in a lot of bullszchit that's been passed down over the years based on opinion rather than experience.
They’re the same guys that use 180gr so the bust the brush.
180s are too light. You need a 220 gr round nose to bust brush. That's what I've been told
It’s amazing how much we all fret over this or that for killing a deer….
Amazing how people are still smoking bucks with patched round balls. You’d think they would’ve fell outta favor if they just flat sucked.
Patched roundballs actually hammer deer
Would you be able to tell the difference between a deer heart that was hit with a 54 caliber round ball and one that was hit with a 64 grain Nosler Bonded 223 bullet? If so, how?
I'm going to try to find a big doe test sample of my own with the 77GR TMK this weekend. Hogs have been sporadic lately with all the acorns, but I'm interested in how this bullet performs at 5.56 velocity.
While I still prefer something .257 caliber or above for general purpose deer hunting, the .223 can obviously get the job done in many scenarios. 100yd deer from yesterday, broadside lung hit, good blood trail, 35yd death run, no problems on this 125lb+ whitetail. I'd do it again. Always cool to watch everything unfold through the scope, especially when it sounds like a 10/22.
It’s amazing how much we all fret over this or that for killing a deer….
Amazing how people are still smoking bucks with patched round balls. You’d think they would’ve fell outta favor if they just flat sucked.
Patched roundballs actually hammer deer
Would you be able to tell the difference between a deer heart that was hit with a 54 caliber round ball and one that was hit with a 64 grain Nosler Bonded 223 bullet? If so, how?
I'm going to try to find a big doe test sample of my own with the 77GR TMK this weekend. Hogs have been sporadic lately with all the acorns, but I'm interested in how this bullet performs at 5.56 velocity.
While I still prefer something .257 caliber or above for general purpose deer hunting, the .223 can obviously get the job done in many scenarios. 100yd deer from yesterday, broadside lung hit, good blood trail, 35yd death run, no problems on this 125lb+ whitetail. I'd do it again. Always cool to watch everything unfold through the scope, especially when it sounds like a 10/22.
Sounds like that bullet has garnered a good reputation on game in recent years and I hope to keep testing it. The Kid said it works alright and I think he might indeed be correct. I certainly hope more test subjects present themselves in the coming months.
Sounds like that bullet has garnered a good reputation on game in recent years and I hope to keep testing it. The Kid said it works alright and I think he might indeed be correct. I certainly hope more test subjects present themselves in the coming months.
If you keep placing bullets like that, I don't know of any thin-skinned animal you aren't quickly killing with that setup. Well done.
It’s amazing how much we all fret over this or that for killing a deer….
Amazing how people are still smoking bucks with patched round balls. You’d think they would’ve fell outta favor if they just flat sucked.
Patched roundballs actually hammer deer
Would you be able to tell the difference between a deer heart that was hit with a 54 caliber round ball and one that was hit with a 64 grain Nosler Bonded 223 bullet? If so, how?
I haven't used them, but I've heard that at closer ranges those Nosler BSB just wreck shiit.
I imagine that the distance shooting the deer might have something to do with the yes or no answer.
I knew a rancher (deceased) in western South Dakota that used a Savage 222 to shoot deer most of his live, he would be in his upper 90's if still living. From what I hear he only used one bullet each, to kill his deer. He used ammo off the dealers' shelves, so I suspect he didn't worry about bullet construction.
Now, imagine you have a 223 and you wanted to use the following:
My phone ap says at 350 yards the energy level is 330-foot pounds, velocity is 1,644 fps, wind drift is 12 inches, and the bullet strike would be 15" low.
So, if you were to shoot a nice Mule Deer Buck at 350 yards, would your choice be a 223 with a maximum load using 55 grain TSX bullets?
On the other hand, at 100 yards the energy is 882 FP, the drift is .8", and the bullet is 2.0" high.
(I looked at a couple of other bullet choices and thought this might be as good as any for energy, velocity, wind drift etc.)
My point is that shooting a deer with whatever you choose will have a lot to do with how far you shoot and size of the deer. Therefore, you will get an unending argument from people some in the mountains and some in the swamps. Some saying absolutely yes and others saying no f---ing way.
The argument is similar to, "What is the perfect deer rifle?" or "What is the perfect bullet to use on deer?"
I imagine that the distance shooting the deer might have something to do with the yes or no answer.
I knew a rancher (deceased) in western South Dakota that used a Savage 222 to shoot deer most of his live, he would be in his upper 90's if still living. From what I hear he only used one bullet each, to kill his deer. He used ammo off the dealers' shelves, so I suspect he didn't worry about bullet construction.
Now, imagine you have a 223 and you wanted to use the following:
My phone ap says at 350 yards the energy level is 330-foot pounds, velocity is 1,644 fps, wind drift is 12 inches, and the bullet strike would be 15" low.
So, if you were to shoot a nice Mule Deer Buck at 350 yards, would your choice be a 223 with a maximum load using 55 grain TSX bullets?
On the other hand, at 100 yards the energy is 882 FP, the drift is .8", and the bullet is 2.0" high.
(I looked at a couple of other bullet choices and thought this might be as good as any for energy, velocity, wind drift etc.)
My point is that shooting a deer with whatever you choose will have a lot to do with how far you shoot and size of the deer. Therefore, you will get an unending argument from people some in the mountains and some in the swamps. Some saying absolutely yes and others saying no f---ing way.
The argument is similar to, "What is the perfect deer rifle?" or "What is the perfect bullet to use on deer?"
It's like adult diapers, it "Depends".
What’s the average distance a whitetail or Mule Deer gets harvested? Hint, it’s way under 350 yards.
I have hunted deer with the 223 for 7 years now and haven't had any trouble at all. Where I hunt everything has been 100 yds or less. If I'm stretching out to 250 the 223 would likely get it done but I don't do it. I have a 6.5 creedmoor for that
Shot one at 80 yards . She jumped a few steps, turned around confused. Shot her again. She just ran off. Went away for an hour then found her a hundred yards farther away. Shot a little one at similar range. It dropped. 55 soft point, 25g H335, not too impressive. Could say the same about bigger rifles though. In fact I've chased and hunted more than a few with solid hits to the chest, lungs, heart with 140 grain bullets. Lost one. On the other hand a 22 mag to the neck was pretty impressive on a big buck at 75 yards or so. 55 grain V Max seems to work really well, which is weird because 140 A Max was horrible for me. Guy in Texas on You Tube has racked up over a hundred. Sorry this is so technical and scientific.
Why not, “Karamajo” Bell killed 800 elephants with a 7X57, that means anyone can kill anything with small calibers and fast twist…
Pissing point. I do believe he preferred the 6.5x54 Mannlicher. But has the original Mauser smokeless powder cartridge really been surpassed for general game?
Why not, “Karamajo” Bell killed 800 elephants with a 7X57, that means anyone can kill anything with small calibers and fast twist…
Pissing point. I do believe he preferred the 6.5x54 Mannlicher. But has the original Mauser smokeless powder cartridge really been surpassed for general game?
Shot one at 80 yards . She jumped a few steps, turned around confused. Shot her again. She just ran off. Went away for an hour then found her a hundred yards farther away. Shot a little one at similar range. It dropped. 55 soft point, 25g H335, not too impressive.
You shouldn't be impressed when you use the wrong bullet for the job.
Back in the 1960's and 70's Jack O'Connor was my favorite hunting writer. He stated that bullet performance and penetration are the hallmarks of killing power. The diameter of the bullet BEFORE impact is largely irrelevant. Shoot a big game bullet from a .223 within reasonable distance and it will result in a kill. I started my oldest daughter shooting mule deer with a .223 and she was successful. She hunted with Winchester's 64 grain Power Point ammo. - Sherwood
Shot one at 80 yards . She jumped a few steps, turned around confused. Shot her again. She just ran off. Went away for an hour then found her a hundred yards farther away. Shot a little one at similar range. It dropped. 55 soft point, 25g H335, not too impressive.
You shouldn't be impressed when you use the wrong bullet for the job.
I killed a pronghorn at 175yrds with a 55gr Rem PSP out of a 223AI fireform load. Went 10yds. Quarter sized exit hole.
This subject has probably been beat to death on various forums, but what say the 'Fire? Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
No, not for any Buck or Doe that I'm interested in shooting. I've seen some of the photos posted on this thread with small does taken with .223. Why would anyone shoot does that small? 250 yard head or neck shot doesn't seem like ethical hunting to me either. Reads like a potential tracking nightmare.
Shot one at 80 yards . She jumped a few steps, turned around confused. Shot her again. She just ran off. Went away for an hour then found her a hundred yards farther away. Shot a little one at similar range. It dropped. 55 soft point, 25g H335, not too impressive.
You shouldn't be impressed when you use the wrong bullet for the job.
I killed a pronghorn at 175yrds with a 55gr Rem PSP out of a 223AI fireform load. Went 10yds. Quarter sized exit hole.
The wrong tool for the job CAN get the job done, that doesn't make it the right tool for the job.
Shot one at 80 yards . She jumped a few steps, turned around confused. Shot her again. She just ran off. Went away for an hour then found her a hundred yards farther away. Shot a little one at similar range. It dropped. 55 soft point, 25g H335, not too impressive.
You shouldn't be impressed when you use the wrong bullet for the job.
I killed a pronghorn at 175yrds with a 55gr Rem PSP out of a 223AI fireform load. Went 10yds. Quarter sized exit hole.
The wrong tool for the job CAN get the job done, that doesn't make it the right tool for the job.
Back in the 1960's and 70's Jack O'Connor was my favorite hunting writer. He stated that bullet performance and penetration are the hallmarks of killing power. The diameter of the bullet BEFORE impact is largely irrelevant. Shoot a big game bullet from a .223 within reasonable distance and it will result in a kill. I started my oldest daughter shooting mule deer with a .223 and she was successful. She hunted with Winchester's 64 grain Power Point ammo. - Sherwood
Yep. A good bullet and proper shot placement Trump bullet diameter every time.
This 64 grain factory Power Point Ammo is a great little hog and deer killer. I used them in my 16” .223 T/C Carbine to let all of my nieces and nephews shoot their first deer and hog. The 60 grain Nosler works just as well. Nowadays, I mostly use the 62 gr Barnes TSX bullet. I’ve yet to lose a hog or deer with it out of my heavy barreled AR-15.
No, not for any Buck or Doe that I'm interested in shooting. I've seen some of the photos posted on this thread with small does taken with .223. Why would anyone shoot does that small? 250 yard head or neck shot doesn't seem like ethical hunting to me either. Reads like a potential tracking nightmare.
Around here, a typical mature 3.5yr+ doe is going to weigh 115-135lbs. Every now and then we get one pushing 140lbs, but it is rare. A typical 3.5-4.5yr old buck is going to be 160-190lbs at his best weight in the fall.
I agree with you on the longer-range head and neck shots, there's just too much that can go wrong. If I'm just going to shoot a doe or sow for the freezer, I can afford to wait for an easier shot presentation, and at that point, nearly any centerfire rifle will do the job. But if we are talking "general purpose" deer and hog hunting, then shot presentations and circumstances are sometimes not ideal, and I like more gun for those times. A tough shot angle, right at dark, near heavy cover, is not really when I want a .22cal centerfire in my hands. Like the 6mm rounds, it'll certainly kill them, but I've had better results in the field with the "standard" deer rounds like the 7mm-08, 30-06, 308, etc. I simply get very few shots at decent bucks in a given hunting season, so I plan for the worst....
This subject has probably been beat to death on various forums, but what say the 'Fire? Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
No, not for any Buck or Doe that I'm interested in shooting. I've seen some of the photos posted on this thread with small does taken with .223. Why would anyone shoot does that small? 250 yard head or neck shot doesn't seem like ethical hunting to me either. Reads like a potential tracking nightmare.
How big are these large does you’re shooting? Some places deer in general aren’t very big, even the “big” ones.
I believe the "general disdain" directed toward using .224 bullets on big game is based on antiquated information of bullet performance from a bygone era. Note, I'm not attacking anybody's personal opinions or comfort level. We simply have better bullets now than we did in the past. Yes, I acknowledge that applies to bullets of all sizes. However, the smaller calibers have benefited more, in my opinion, and a 223 with the proper bullet is an excellent deer round.
Shot one at 80 yards . She jumped a few steps, turned around confused. Shot her again. She just ran off. Went away for an hour then found her a hundred yards farther away. Shot a little one at similar range. It dropped. 55 soft point, 25g H335, not too impressive.
You shouldn't be impressed when you use the wrong bullet for the job.
I killed a pronghorn at 175yrds with a 55gr Rem PSP out of a 223AI fireform load. Went 10yds. Quarter sized exit hole.
The wrong tool for the job CAN get the job done, that doesn't make it the right tool for the job.
Which is your 223 deer bullet preference?
Fusion, Partition and Nosler Bonded. All of those are well constructed bullets that expand and shed some of their core/fragment.
Selecting from loads I've put together for my 223, if I were to take it out after deer I'd most likely be using the 65 grain Game King.
I have some 55, 62 and 65 grain GKs loaded, but haven't shot anything with them. I have so much confidence in the 60 grain Partition and the 64 grain Nosler Bonded that I have a hard time not using them.
funny how now it is acceptable from most experienced hunters at least, that 223 and above is plenty good for deer. i am 65 now and have been killing deer all my life with the 22 high power rounds. a few years ago, it was considered foolish to use such a caliber on deer sized game. i think most of that came about from so called "expert" gun writers, who most never tried such a caliber or maybe never even got from behind a desk and in the field at all. i remember reading all the story's about how a deer shot with a 22-250 would only have a superficial wound and run off to die a lingering death! back in the early 60s-late 80s my dad used to kill deer with a 22 hornet with no problem, but he would keep shots around 80yds or less. not saying a hornet is a deer round but i can tell you this, an average sized SC deer, 120lb or so hit behind the shoulder with a hornet will die fast! i have skinned his deer and the bullet will penetrate to the offside skin or exit every time.
... a 223 with the proper bullet is an excellent deer round.
I certainly concede that a .223 is "adequate," especially within a reasonable distance. But "excellent" means that it excels or is superior to most others. I wouldn't go that far, personally. I have killed deer with 10mm pistols, when that's all I had with me, but I would prefer to shoot one with a .223, which has about a third more energy than the 10mm loads I shoot. I live on 5 acres and sometimes just hunt my backyard. When I grab an AR for that purpose, I always grab my AR10 and not my AR15. The .308 is just way better with no downside. If I only had my AR15, I would use it without reservation. But the .308 recoil is nothing to me. If I was shooting hundreds of deer and was in terrible financial shape, I could see using a .223, but that's not because it excels, but because it likely would do the job in most circumstances. It's adequate.
The last deer I helped look for someone shot with a 223 we didn't find until the buzzards circling showed us where it was the next day. There was no blood trail after a few feet
The last deer I helped look for someone shot with a 223 we didn't find until the buzzards circling showed us where it was the next day. There was no blood trail after a few feet
What projectile was used? Range? How well was the deer hit? Internal damage?
Lots of focus on the bullet, less on the energy behind it. I've upped the powder charge a full grain without pressure signs and still half a grain below Lyman's max. It's a hopefully better combo coyote/maybe deer load in a light rifle I like to tote. The guy in the panhandle swears they've put over a 100 deer in the freezer with the 55 V Max factory loads, without a single loss. Whatever powder it is, the stated velocity is 3240. The bullet does not seem to fragment as advertised but the plastic tip forces reliable mushroom deformation. Perfect energy transfer. Speed kills. Same bullet might not do so well at say 2800 fps? I've had deer shot with "big game" rifles run 90 yards on 3 legs with a sliced heart. Difficult to find. A neck shot or high shoulder is much more effective, regardless of caliber, chambering, or bullet selection. Dead deer can run a long way sometimes. One thing for sure, 223 is cheap to shoot, and versatile. But it's no 6.5 Creed!
Selecting from loads I've put together for my 223, if I were to take it out after deer I'd most likely be using the 65 grain Game King.
That’s my favorite.224 deer bullet and, if I shoot another deer before the end of the month, it’s what I’ll use, the .223 having come up in the rotation.
My first.224 deer was in 1967 with my 788 in .222 shooting a Norma factory load with a 50 grain bullet. DRT at 200 yards, spined through the upper shoulder with the bullet under the offside hide. I was young and didn’t know any better.
Back in the 1960's and 70's Jack O'Connor was my favorite hunting writer. He stated that bullet performance and penetration are the hallmarks of killing power. The diameter of the bullet BEFORE impact is largely irrelevant. Shoot a big game bullet from a .223 within reasonable distance and it will result in a kill. I started my oldest daughter shooting mule deer with a .223 and she was successful. She hunted with Winchester's 64 grain Power Point ammo. - Sherwood
Yep. A good bullet and proper shot placement Trump bullet diameter every time.
This 64 grain factory Power Point Ammo is a great little hog and deer killer. I used them in my 16” .223 T/C Carbine to let all of my nieces and nephews shoot their first deer and hog. The 60 grain Nosler works just as well. Nowadays, I mostly use the 62 gr Barnes TSX bullet. I’ve yet to lose a hog or deer with it out of my heavy barreled AR-15.
I tried to like the 60gr NPT but I couldn't get it to shoot. I'm not expert on loading but I tried more than a few. I'm going to get another rifle going for my daughter that's shown some interest in hunting. I'll set her up with 55gr ttsx of the 60gr Win PP's.
The last deer I helped look for someone shot with a 223 we didn't find until the buzzards circling showed us where it was the next day. There was no blood trail after a few feet
The three worst "find a wounded deer" goat rodeos I've helped with with included one a guy hit with a .30-06 and one a guy hit with a 12 gauge shotgun slug and one a guy hit with a .300 WSM.
Lots of focus on the bullet, less on the energy behind it. I've upped the powder charge a full grain without pressure signs and still half a grain below Lyman's max. It's a hopefully better combo coyote/maybe deer load in a light rifle I like to tote. The guy in the panhandle swears they've put over a 100 deer in the freezer with the 55 V Max factory loads, without a single loss. Whatever powder it is, the stated velocity is 3240. The bullet does not seem to fragment as advertised but the plastic tip forces reliable mushroom deformation. Perfect energy transfer. Speed kills. Same bullet might not do so well at say 2800 fps? I've had deer shot with "big game" rifles run 90 yards on 3 legs with a sliced heart. Difficult to find. A neck shot or high shoulder is much more effective, regardless of caliber, chambering, or bullet selection. Dead deer can run a long way sometimes. One thing for sure, 223 is cheap to shoot, and versatile. But it's no 6.5 Creed!
Speed does not kill. It seems to help but its not the end all for sure. Killed a lot with the creed. Never lost one with 223 either.
... a 223 with the proper bullet is an excellent deer round.
I certainly concede that a .223 is "adequate," especially within a reasonable distance. But "excellent" means that it excels or is superior to most others. I wouldn't go that far, personally. I have killed deer with 10mm pistols, when that's all I had with me, but I would prefer to shoot one with a .223, which has about a third more energy than the 10mm loads I shoot. I live on 5 acres and sometimes just hunt my backyard. When I grab an AR for that purpose, I always grab my AR10 and not my AR15. The .308 is just way better with no downside. If I only had my AR15, I would use it without reservation. But the .308 recoil is nothing to me. If I was shooting hundreds of deer and was in terrible financial shape, I could see using a .223, but that's not because it excels, but because it likely would do the job in most circumstances. It's adequate.
You are simply afraid on a tiny parcel of land that they will get off the land. Thats understandable. And easily solved. More than caliber you simply place the shot to the CNS. Or dont' shoot at all. the 308 will fail you at some point. 5 acres is tiny. Doesn't take much of a run to get off 5 acres
This subject has probably been beat to death on various forums, but what say the 'Fire? Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
No, not for any Buck or Doe that I'm interested in shooting. I've seen some of the photos posted on this thread with small does taken with .223. Why would anyone shoot does that small? 250 yard head or neck shot doesn't seem like ethical hunting to me either. Reads like a potential tracking nightmare.
177 inch book deer taken with 223... again its bullet choice and shot placement. We watched the shot. Lung shot and the deer took a couple steps and fell over.
One interesting thing I've noticed this season. Wife won a bolt gun 223. We started killing deer right away. I think we are at 7 or 8 so far. Every last one has run because they have been lung shot. Even the coyotes ran. Pigs too.
Anyway shot with a non suppressed 223 the deer run off to die in the woods. Out of sight. Suppressed I've not had a single one leave sight. And IMHO not a single one has known they have been shot. From about 90 yards out to just under 300 yards. Trot a way at the shot or simply look up. Around. Walk aways looking around. Then they realize something isn't right and its too late, they wobble and fall. I'm suspect that its the suppressed 223 is so quiet to them and the impact of the bullet is small like a wasp sting etc... they simply dont understand that they have been shot.
Its pretty cool actually.
Now plenty will say its showing how weak the round is. I disagree. Its the loud boom of the guns that mostly makes deer run to start with. 300/221 suppressed with subs gave about the same results. In a bolt gun. If they ran, it wasn't far, and then stood around looking at each other until the shot deer fell over.
The one deer with her bolt gun that ran hard was without a suppressor. And about 20 yards away. The bang was really loud, and it did what typical deer do. Ran like heck about 50 steps until it bled out, fell over, flopped a bit while it continued to die and that way it.
One thing that you do loose when they dont' run though, is the heart rate is not up, and they don't bleed out quite as quickly as one scared and running for its life so to speak.
of course I've said and still say, if 22LR was legal we'd use that often. Deer simply are not hard to kill.
You are simply afraid on a tiny parcel of land that they will get off the land. Thats understandable. And easily solved. More than caliber you simply place the shot to the CNS. Or dont' shoot at all. the 308 will fail you at some point. 5 acres is tiny. Doesn't take much of a run to get off 5 acres
I have the same mindset. It may partly be luck, but none of the deer I have shot, and none my two sons have shot, ever have gone more than five feet after being shot. It also is partly because we simply don't pull the trigger, unless the shot is close to perfect.
FWIW, my neighbors in all directions are super friendly and have no problem with me hunting or recovering deer on their lands.
I also hunt other places, including my friend's farm in Virginia that borders the national forest. I also would pick my .308 over the .223 every time for there too. There also are big black bears there as well. That's not the main reason, but I'd rather hunt, or defend against, a bear with the .308. I'm not criticizing the .223 or anyone who uses it on deer. I just prefer something bigger for myself. I shoot my .340 Wby and .375 Wby really well. So, the recoil of a semiauto .308 is nothing to me. And I don't shoot enough deer that the price difference per round could even be close to a rounding error in my budget. And (given that I can shoot along a clear electrical easement passing one corner of my property), I could have shots over 200 yards---also true on my friend's farm and the NF bordering it. I would much prefer the .308 or even bigger in that situation. I just can't think of a reason to pick up the .223 over the .308 or even my 6.5-300 Wby when heading out the door to hunt deer. Not that it won't work in most situations.
If the .223 had been legal in Virginia, where I lived until over a year ago (and we hunted on my friend's farm in VA), I likely would have bought my boys a youth model .223 for deer hunting, instead of the .243 I got them, for recoil reasons when they were very small. But, as a healthy 175-lb adult male, that's just not relevant to me.
The last deer I helped look for someone shot with a 223 we didn't find until the buzzards circling showed us where it was the next day. There was no blood trail after a few feet
yea where was he hit? that my friend is the key. i have saw deer hit to far back with a 30-06 that was never found, and bones all over the ground where the deer was standing. a deer with 2 collapse lungs and can't breathe, dies fast,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I always enjoy reading the comments " for kids it's ok" . So if inexperienced youngster can do it but a full grown man can not , what does that say about the man. 223 for deer are the same as .243 for elk. Well placed shots always work, smaller guns should translate to better shooting. Picking the time and place to shoot Is where no gun can make up the difference.
Funny how the people who regularly use a 223 to kill deer like them and report that they work well and continue using them. Those who do not use a 223 have most of the negative things to say.
The last deer I helped look for someone shot with a 223 we didn't find until the buzzards circling showed us where it was the next day. There was no blood trail after a few feet
The three worst "find a wounded deer" goat rodeos I've helped with with included one a guy hit with a .30-06 and one a guy hit with a 12 gauge shotgun slug and one a guy hit with a .300 WSM.
Shot placement matters.
Caliber doesn't compensate for incompetence.
Same here. All heavier recoiling guns involved in search inducing bad shots. One of the goat ropes was my responsibility. A hurried, poorly placed shot from a 30-06. Never has happened with any 22, 24 or 25 caliber I have used.
IMHO, even with all of the stars aligned and in the hands of a SKILLED rifleman, it's an iffy proposition.
IMHE, it's a decidedly good killer. You put the right bullet in the right place, deer die. That right place is largely caliber indifferent.
How many deer have you killed with anything in the last 10 years or ever for that matter ?
I have posted more pictures of deer killed with my 223 than you have of any deer you have killed. Go fist yourself, you bitter old twat. Hugs and Merry Christmas.
IMHO, even with all of the stars aligned and in the hands of a SKILLED rifleman, it's an iffy proposition.
IMHE, it's a decidedly good killer. You put the right bullet in the right place, deer die. That right place is largely caliber indifferent.
How many deer have you killed with anything in the last 10 years or ever for that matter ?
I have posted more pictures of deer killed with my 223 than you have of any deer you have killed. Go fist yourself, you bitter old twat. Hugs and Merry Christmas.
I take great pleasure in building ammo for my deer killing granddaughter and grandson. Those little suckers stack 'em up with their 223 and 22-250. This is part of my Christmas gift to my granddaughter this year.
The deer that the.buzzards ate was hit well if using a 30-06 shot the same way it would have been found easily probably right where it was shot. Less than 100 yard shot. Have no idea what bullet. Someone elses girl. She's a good shot . Just shooting a weak rifle.
The deer that the.buzzards ate was hit well if using a 30-06 shot the same way it would have been found easily probably right where it was shot. Less than 100 yard shot. Have no idea what bullet. Someone elses girl. She's a good shot . Just shooting a weak rifle.
What does hit well mean? What part of the deer did it hit and at what angle. The bullets in the picture above can be counted on to destroy vitals at less than 100 yards from any angle other than perhaps up the ass or through a back leg. May work for those, but I don't know anyone who has tried.
I have posted more pictures of deer killed with my 223 than you have of any deer you have killed. Go fist yourself, you bitter old twat. Hugs and Merry Christmas.
Well this thread sure has gone to hell. As the OP, I'm disappointed in what it has degenerated into. Some of y'all need some serious therapy.
No, not for any Buck or Doe that I'm interested in shooting. I've seen some of the photos posted on this thread with small does taken with .223. Why would anyone shoot does that small? 250 yard head or neck shot doesn't seem like ethical hunting to me either. Reads like a potential tracking nightmare.
Around here, a typical mature 3.5yr+ doe is going to weigh 115-135lbs. Every now and then we get one pushing 140lbs, but it is rare. A typical 3.5-4.5yr old buck is going to be 160-190lbs at his best weight in the fall.
I agree with you on the longer-range head and neck shots, there's just too much that can go wrong. If I'm just going to shoot a doe or sow for the freezer, I can afford to wait for an easier shot presentation, and at that point, nearly any centerfire rifle will do the job. But if we are talking "general purpose" deer and hog hunting, then shot presentations and circumstances are sometimes not ideal, and I like more gun for those times. A tough shot angle, right at dark, near heavy cover, is not really when I want a .22cal centerfire in my hands. Like the 6mm rounds, it'll certainly kill them, but I've had better results in the field with the "standard" deer rounds like the 7mm-08, 30-06, 308, etc. I simply get very few shots at decent bucks in a given hunting season, so I plan for the worst....
I've thought about your comment along with comments from TheKid about deer size and TheBigSky about bullet technology advancing...Being honest I didn't even give a thought about deer from different regions in the US being different in size on average...but it's true. The doe weights you mention seems consistent with where I hunt in NC. Typical bucks may be closer to 160 than 190 here though.
There is no doubt that bullets have advanced too. Me and my son deer hunt with a .270 and a 7mm-08. Everything we've shot with these rounds has been either DRT or one hop and crash. The shots have all been just behind the shoulder and low. Looks like we wreak havoc on the heart. All have had exit wounds. I can understand why a stout .223 in the same spot would give similar results. However, I do feel more comfortable and confident with what we are using.
I have posted more pictures of deer killed with my 223 than you have of any deer you have killed. Go fist yourself, you bitter old twat. Hugs and Merry Christmas.
Well this thread sure has gone to hell. As the OP, I'm disappointed in what it has degenerated into. Some of y'all need some serious therapy.
I have posted more pictures of deer killed with my 223 than you have of any deer you have killed. Go fist yourself, you bitter old twat. Hugs and Merry Christmas.
Well this thread sure has gone to hell. As the OP, I'm disappointed in what it has degenerated into. Some of y'all need some serious therapy.
For the past 5 seasons we have used 223, 22-250, and 22 creedmoor pretty much exclusively. Looking back, I’m not sure if I can tell much difference in performance between the 3 cartridges. The 223 has become my favorite cartridge. We have used the Nosler 64gr bonded, 55gr and 75gr gold dot, 77gr TMK, 77gr SMK, 75gr ELDM, Hornady 55gr Sp, 70gr Accubond, and 60gr partition. Deer and hog were hunted, and shot from as close as 15 feet all the way out to 300 yards. All of the bullets listed have worked great. The 77gr TMK in the 223 is just absolutely amazing.
It’s been said I am sure of it but every year… two general camps. Those who shoot deer with 223s, provide evidence, and are completely happy with results. And those who don’t shoot deer, tell you it will be the worst decision of your life if you do, and have no evidence to the contrary in regards to the first group’s success.
I hunt multi state and at home every year deer and a 223. Last two from last year home, one shot with 7mm-08, one with 223. 223 did more damage but 7mm-08 did something unseen before.
For the past 5 seasons we have used 223, 22-250, and 22 creedmoor pretty much exclusively. Looking back, I’m not sure if I can tell much difference in performance between the 3 cartridges. The 223 has become my favorite cartridge. We have used the Nosler 64gr bonded, 55gr and 75gr gold dot, 77gr TMK, 77gr SMK, 75gr ELDM, Hornady 55gr Sp, 70gr Accubond, and 60gr partition. Deer and hog were hunted, and shot from as close as 15 feet all the way out to 300 yards. All of the bullets listed have worked great. The 77gr TMK in the 223 is just absolutely amazing.
Can you give me some details on your 75 ELDM experience?
Sure. I haven’t capped anything with that bullet that was any further than about 100 yards. They have always exited, even from muzzle velocities of 3300fps, and busting shoulders. Exits have consistently been the size of a nickel, usually not much blood on the ground. Then again, I’ve never really had to track anything I’ve hit with one.
Regardless of what others say or their success stories It's an adamant no from me. I have IMO much better suited rifles/calibers to use for deer and other big game.
You bet in fact some will say there is no better 400 yard Mule deer rifle in existance.
LMAO. Obviously that statement was made by a person that hasn’t shot many mule deer.
Or maybe, just maybe, that statement was made by a person who has shot truckloads of mule deer.
P
Well I have shot at least a couple truckloads of mule deer but I was being sarcastic in that old post. A case could be made that a 223 would make a better open country deer rifle than a thick cover deer rifle because if the deer traveled a bit it wouldn't be that hard to find. Still I would limit my shots to around 200 yards and ideal conditions. I have yet to try the "magic" bullets like the Tipped matchking, maybe someday. I am in the camp of people who think there are actually better all around deer cartridges than the 223 and I have used the round a lot.
Re-reading this made me remember a whitetail buck I shot with the 22 creedmoor a few years ago, loaded with the 75gr ELDM at 425yds. He was walking across across a cut out in a valley. I know, it was irresponsible of me to shoot at unwounded game in motion at that range with a .22. Luckily I hit him in the bread basket. When he dropped, he rolled over twice, away from me, for whatever reason. Obviously, he wasn’t “knocked down”, maybe just a reaction to vital organs being smashed. We may never know. That made it appear that he was bowled over, it was very satisfying. According to the Ballistic AE app, the impact velocity was approximately 2800fps. Pin hole entrance, nickel exit, everything in between smashed beyond repair. That is about 150fps faster at impact than a 16” barrel 223 with the same bullet at the muzzle.
At 400 yards my 75 gr ELDM is going north of 2,400 fps.
Poke that through the lungs, I’ll bet the deer doesn’t go far.
P
Ballstic calculator says that means you must be launching it at above 3,200 fps MV. That's way faster than any ammo mfr claims. How do you do that? Even if you do do that, why not just use a bigger cartridge that does something like that in more-normal circumstances without the magic that you apparently have?
For the past 5 seasons we have used 223, 22-250, and 22 creedmoor pretty much exclusively. Looking back, I’m not sure if I can tell much difference in performance between the 3 cartridges. The 223 has become my favorite cartridge. We have used the Nosler 64gr bonded, 55gr and 75gr gold dot, 77gr TMK, 77gr SMK, 75gr ELDM, Hornady 55gr Sp, 70gr Accubond, and 60gr partition. Deer and hog were hunted, and shot from as close as 15 feet all the way out to 300 yards. All of the bullets listed have worked great. The 77gr TMK in the 223 is just absolutely amazing.
Of those bullets have any given consistent exits at ranges up to 100 yards? I’ve used 64 BSB and 77TMK (great performance) and gotten no exits at around 50 yards. Deer sure didn’t go far so it didn’t really matter. Wasnt to try the 75gr Gold Dot but it’s unobtanium. Have some 62grTTSX but have some concern about longer follow ups.
For the nay sayers, have had no exits with 140gr Pro Hunters from 7-08 and 140 gr BT from 7mag as well.
A 30 06 puts a big hole in them. Delivers a lot of shock from all the combined energy dump of bullet mass X velocity squared - energy from powder burn. Speed does kill! Faster than adding mass. That's the velocity SQUARED part. But velocity drops off fast, therefore the retained energy of a big fat, high arcing slug will retain energy longer than a 55 grain pill. There's a video of blue wildebeast dropped at 350 yards by a 223. Brain shot on a calm day? Never killed too many deer. My observations are inconclusive. Quick offhand shots on moving deer is risky. It's good to practice on small game and targets because you will be tempted. My 223 experience is definitely on the negative spectrum due ( I think ) to inadequate energy transfer, ie low velocity, too little powder. Accuracy. Placement. Energy. Magic bullet if you have one. In that order, it seems.
A 30 06 puts a big hole in them. Delivers a lot of shock from all the combined energy dump of bullet mass X velocity squared - energy from powder burn. Speed does kill! Faster than adding mass. That's the velocity SQUARED part. But velocity drops off fast, therefore the retained energy of a big fat, high arcing slug will retain energy longer than a 55 grain pill. There's a video of blue wildebeast dropped at 350 yards by a 223. Brain shot on a calm day? Never killed too many deer. My observations are inconclusive. Quick offhand shots on moving deer is risky. It's good to practice on small game and targets because you will be tempted. My 223 experience is definitely on the negative spectrum due ( I think ) to inadequate energy transfer, ie low velocity, too little powder. Accuracy. Placement. Energy. Magic bullet if you have one. In that order, it seems.
Having never shot a deer with a 223, I’ll defer to the many who have. It appears that they do just fine. I’ve sometimes thought that my AR with the collapsible stock would be a good deer rifle for a person of small stature.
FWIW, I’ve shot bunches of them with rounds from 250 Savage to 35 Whelen, and some with large bore muzzle loaders. I haven’t seen much difference in how quick they act dead. I guess that some future medical issue might require a very light recoiling cartridge. Other than that, I see no reason I’d choose a 223. For others? Well, it is your fun. Rock on.
For the past 5 seasons we have used 223, 22-250, and 22 creedmoor pretty much exclusively. Looking back, I’m not sure if I can tell much difference in performance between the 3 cartridges. The 223 has become my favorite cartridge. We have used the Nosler 64gr bonded, 55gr and 75gr gold dot, 77gr TMK, 77gr SMK, 75gr ELDM, Hornady 55gr Sp, 70gr Accubond, and 60gr partition. Deer and hog were hunted, and shot from as close as 15 feet all the way out to 300 yards. All of the bullets listed have worked great. The 77gr TMK in the 223 is just absolutely amazing.
Of those bullets have any given consistent exits at ranges up to 100 yards? I’ve used 64 BSB and 77TMK (great performance) and gotten no exits at around 50 yards. Deer sure didn’t go far so it didn’t really matter. Wasnt to try the 75gr Gold Dot but it’s unobtanium. Have some 62grTTSX but have some concern about longer follow ups.
For the nay sayers, have had no exits with 140gr Pro Hunters from 7-08 and 140 gr BT from 7mag as well.
Thanks.
Frank
The only .224 bullets I haven’t caught yet are the 62gr TBBC and the 75gr Gold Dot.
Yeah, the Fusion 62gr is generally on shelves here. I’d look into those. I’ve also shot factory 62tsx, but I’m not seeing them anymore. They weren’t quite as impressive on flesh from an AR carbine as they were at 3300 from a 223AI bolt gun.
This subject has probably been beat to death on various forums, but what say the 'Fire? Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
Yes with the proper bullet. This is my grandson with his Pa. Mentored Youth 8 point buck taken with a T/C Contender 223 carbine using Sierra 60 gr. partition bullets.
This subject has probably been beat to death on various forums, but what say the 'Fire? Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
Yes with the proper bullet. This is my grandson with his Pa. Mentored Youth 8 point buck taken with a T/C Contender 223 carbine using Sierra 60 gr. partition bullets.
I love these threads. So far there have been lots of fantastical observations from the nay camp, like digging a 0.224” bullet out of a found dead animal and determining it was fired from a 223 (man I hope that guy is working forensics solving crimes somewhere!) to the “a bigger bullet would have resulted in us finding it, but it was shot perfectly! stories.
You can’t read more than any 10 threads on the fire before you read “Bullets matter more than headstamps”, and that ain’t wrong.
Bullet construction and twist rate that it is spun with matter more than anyone really contemplates for the most part, other thanthe guys who understand it know what it means, and I would bet 9/10 of those guys wouldn’t even blink about a fast twist 223 and a good bullet on a whitetail at ANY range.
I’ve killed a [bleep] of stuff (or been there spotting the hit over a shoulder) with fast and slow twist 223/223AI with bullets from 45 gr mono’s to 88 gr ELD-M. Even the difference in terminal effects between a 75 Amax when spun at 1:9” versus 1:7” is noticeable when started at the same muzzle velocity.
We didn’t do a ton of business up here this fall with 223AI’s, but from what I saw, a 1:7 twist with an 88 ELD-m is a ridiculously underrated combination. The stuff we did kill though, was bang-flopped-dead with both shoulders crushed.
There isn’t a deer walking the planet that I would hesitate to poke an 88 through a shoulder from any angle, at any range that I would shoot a deer at, and in way up North on the East border of BC, they don’t build ‘em much bigger anywhere.
I’ll just put this here… 150 yards, oat fed bear in November. 88 ELD-m, both shoulders and an exit.
And if anyone has killed a whitetail bigger than this with ANY cartridge, I’d be REAL surprised.
175 yards, both shoulders broken, 88 ELD-m caught under the hide on the offside.
Imgur is being a bitch today and not letting me upload the pic of the 3” hole through the ribs that was under the onside shoulder after it was lifted off.
No fuss, no muss, no drama. Shot, half turn, fell down and kicked a leg and that was it. 2 seconds between impact and dead. And I weren’t guessing on what the results were going to be before I touched off the shot.
And if anyone has killed a whitetail bigger than this with ANY cartridge, I’d be REAL surprised.
175 yards, both shoulders broken, 88 ELD-m caught under the hide on the offside.
Imgur is being a bitch today and not letting me upload the pic of the 3” hole through the ribs that was under the onside shoulder after it was lifted off.
No fuss, no muss, no drama. Shot, half turn, fell down and kicked a leg and that was it. 2 seconds between impact and dead. And I weren’t guessing on what the results were going to be before I touched off the shot.
This subject has probably been beat to death on various forums, but what say the 'Fire? Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
Yes with the proper bullet. This is my grandson with his Pa. Mentored Youth 8 point buck taken with a T/C Contender 223 carbine using Sierra 60 gr. partition bullets.
I love these threads. So far there have been lots of fantastical observations from the nay camp, like digging a 0.224” bullet out of a found dead animal and determining it was fired from a 223 (man I hope that guy is working forensics solving crimes somewhere!) to the “a bigger bullet would have resulted in us finding it, but it was shot perfectly! stories.
You can’t read more than any 10 threads on the fire before you read “Bullets matter more than headstamps”, and that ain’t wrong.
Bullet construction and twist rate that it is spun with matter more than anyone really contemplates for the most part, other thanthe guys who understand it know what it means, and I would bet 9/10 of those guys wouldn’t even blink about a fast twist 223 and a good bullet on a whitetail at ANY range.
I’ve killed a [bleep] of stuff (or been there spotting the hit over a shoulder) with fast and slow twist 223/223AI with bullets from 45 gr mono’s to 88 gr ELD-M. Even the difference in terminal effects between a 75 Amax when spun at 1:9” versus 1:7” is noticeable when started at the same muzzle velocity.
We didn’t do a ton of business up here this fall with 223AI’s, but from what I saw, a 1:7 twist with an 88 ELD-m is a ridiculously underrated combination. The stuff we did kill though, was bang-flopped-dead with both shoulders crushed.
There isn’t a deer walking the planet that I would hesitate to poke an 88 through a shoulder from any angle, at any range that I would shoot a deer at, and in way up North on the East border of BC, they don’t build ‘em much bigger anywhere.
I’ll just put this here… 150 yards, oat fed bear in November. 88 ELD-m, both shoulders and an exit.
Originally Posted by KodiakHntr
And if anyone has killed a whitetail bigger than this with ANY cartridge, I’d be REAL surprised.
175 yards, both shoulders broken, 88 ELD-m caught under the hide on the offside.
Imgur is being a bitch today and not letting me upload the pic of the 3” hole through the ribs that was under the onside shoulder after it was lifted off.
No fuss, no muss, no drama. Shot, half turn, fell down and kicked a leg and that was it. 2 seconds between impact and dead. And I weren’t guessing on what the results were going to be before I touched off the shot.
I love these threads. So far there have been lots of fantastical observations from the nay camp, like digging a 0.224” bullet out of a found dead animal and determining it was fired from a 223 (man I hope that guy is working forensics solving crimes somewhere!) to the “a bigger bullet would have resulted in us finding it, but it was shot perfectly! stories.
You can’t read more than any 10 threads on the fire before you read “Bullets matter more than headstamps”, and that ain’t wrong.
Bullet construction and twist rate that it is spun with matter more than anyone really contemplates for the most part, other thanthe guys who understand it know what it means, and I would bet 9/10 of those guys wouldn’t even blink about a fast twist 223 and a good bullet on a whitetail at ANY range.
I’ve killed a [bleep] of stuff (or been there spotting the hit over a shoulder) with fast and slow twist 223/223AI with bullets from 45 gr mono’s to 88 gr ELD-M. Even the difference in terminal effects between a 75 Amax when spun at 1:9” versus 1:7” is noticeable when started at the same muzzle velocity.
We didn’t do a ton of business up here this fall with 223AI’s, but from what I saw, a 1:7 twist with an 88 ELD-m is a ridiculously underrated combination. The stuff we did kill though, was bang-flopped-dead with both shoulders crushed.
There isn’t a deer walking the planet that I would hesitate to poke an 88 through a shoulder from any angle, at any range that I would shoot a deer at, and in way up North on the East border of BC, they don’t build ‘em much bigger anywhere.
I’ll just put this here… 150 yards, oat fed bear in November. 88 ELD-m, both shoulders and an exit.
Originally Posted by KodiakHntr
And if anyone has killed a whitetail bigger than this with ANY cartridge, I’d be REAL surprised.
175 yards, both shoulders broken, 88 ELD-m caught under the hide on the offside.
Imgur is being a bitch today and not letting me upload the pic of the 3” hole through the ribs that was under the onside shoulder after it was lifted off.
No fuss, no muss, no drama. Shot, half turn, fell down and kicked a leg and that was it. 2 seconds between impact and dead. And I weren’t guessing on what the results were going to be before I touched off the shot.
Kodiak' nice work bud ! Keep saying I need to spin up a 1:7" for my 223AI but the 1:8" 75 Amax melding has been a literal Monster on everything it intersects with... Fortunately, I did build a 1:7" 22 Creed' 88 launcher, they don't bounce offa critters either. grin.
This subject has probably been beat to death on various forums, but what say the 'Fire? Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
Yes with the proper bullet. This is my grandson with his Pa. Mentored Youth 8 point buck taken with a T/C Contender 223 carbine using Sierra 60 gr. partition bullets.
.
What an awesome picture. That young man walked tall that day.
When it comes to twist , I know the advantages. You can shoot a longer heavier bullet . However, is there any disadvantages to a 1/7twist? Is the muzzle velocity slower? In guns, and bullets, there is almost always a trade off. Does a fast twist barrel wear out faster? If there are no dis advantages, then why did Remington and others go with a 1/14" twist? Does a fast twist work well in an 18" barrel, or does it need a longer barrel? Not that I care.
My .223, 20 inch barrel, 9 twist, has killed about a dozen deer with 53 grain TSXs. No losses. None made it 100 yards after the hit. No bullets stopped in any deer. Heaviest deer of the lot was ~200 lbs. Not enough deer to be statistically sound numbers, but a pretty damned good looking sample so far.
I think it's the combination of 3300 FPS and 9 twist. It took me a while to decide to shoot a deer with it. I shot enough other varmints to give me a reason to think it probably would work well, even though I'd seen a few deer well killed with a .222 mag and had killed a gut shot buck I had to chase way out in a swamp (pre-TSX). I do not see a whole lot of difference between it out to 250 yards and a 30-30 under 100 yards with silvertips. Pretty similar holes. I haven't killed enough deer at 100 or more with the 30-30 and 150 grain TSXs with that big ass hollow point, but suspect it might be able to do a little better. Especially using LeverEvolution and pushing it to the top. It produces 2400 FPS with that TSX and sub inch accuracy with some room for more.
The .223 definitely has more range and better accuracy at max range than the 30-30.
Ridgeline, a Creed and 88’s are going to be giant killers.
I have much love for the 75 Amax 223AI Montana combo, but the Montana is absolutely getting a 1:7 this winter.
What barrel will you use? Factory contour or custom. I have a 223 Montana that I love as well but have been thinking the same thing.
Thanks and Merry Christmas.
Frank
Merry Christmas Frank. The two 223AI I built this summer/fall were with IBI Barrels (Canadian company in Chilliwack BC) using their Sporter contour. The Montane will be a factory dupe of the contour, and a couple inches bobbed off to match the one I have. Balance and handling is exquisite on that one.
I see zero downsides to the 1:7, but to be fair I only shoot 75’s and 88’s out of them. We’re several tons deep into lynx/coyotes/wolves/bears/deer with the 75 Amax out to 500+ yards around here (although the 75 is a little bit too much bullet on canines as you can’t keep one inside them regardless of angle and exits are big. 88’s are even more of the same.
With all the guys here saying it works really good and as good as a 30-06, why not just use a .223Rem.? If it works... Like Seafire ,,, the guys using .22 cal. are much more aware of where that bullet needs to go. A weekend warrior deer hunter will not use a .223 Rem. They use " deer rifles". I have a Savage 12 fv in .223 Rem. It is at least 10 lb. gun and I never use it anymore . I like the gun,, with a Leopold 6x18 scope . However, I dont shoot targets much anymore , I'm mostly a bow hunter and fisherman. If I can find a nice light .223 Rem. I will trade the Savage for something practical and will likely use the new .223 Rem. for deer sometimes. My go to gun is a Ruger American compact 18" barrel that is 6 lbs. It works very well for going through marshes , swamps and cat tails . I hunt in trees with a climber so light and compact is best .
We grow ‘em big up here. Imagine if’n he’d been a big mature 5 point…
OK, so I gotta be that guy; this new ballistic science of the "more vicious twist" effect on zee terminal killing and so forth. Really? That sure beats the tumbling or exploding theories of days gone by. Much more subtle. If you are convinced, that is all that matters. But I'm more curious how you fit those long 88's in a typical rifle? Assuming they are at least as long as Sierra 80's we shot out of service rifles single loaded, you must have a long action receiver, no? My last visit to the range guys were talking about 223 superseding 308 at long range using 90's in fast twist barrels. That was on the horizon 20 years ago. It's a curious development beyond specialized target shooting, however, the heavier projectiles encouraging the AI modification. Instead of simply a 22-250 or 243, known to work well. Rifle loonies are chosen people obviously, crazier the better. Very cool. How you do that? Never mind why....
I don’t have any experience pushing the 88’s faster as I’m lacking any 22-250’s or 22 Creeds, but I think there is merit in “just enough” velocity and vicious twist rates. I do know that under the onside front quarter there was a hole the diameter of a beer can bored through both sides of the ribcage and the lungs on both the moose and the bear. We’ve smashed quite a few deer/moose/elk/bears with 105 Amax’s from 243AI’s with similar distances and bullet placement, and the permanent wound channels from 105’s/ 9 twist are not as big as the 1:7/88, but thats a sample of 7 heartbeats with 88’s this fall so statistically insignificant relatively speaking.
As to the HOW of it, pretty simple to pull the mag block out of a short action Rem 700, and you are there.
That should do just fine Gunner. But you know that.
Shot mine at 200 on Monday. I love that little rifle.
55gr ttsx over 4198.
Good stuff, Thanks T and Big B, yes, the little rifle has no recoil, the 2.5-8 Leupold is plenty for any 250 yard max hunting, i intend to find out what those little slugs will do this season.
Well, i didnt see anything i wanted to burn a tag on while carrying the Ruger 223, but loaned it to a 14 year old cousin, i heard him shoot that morning then heard his dad who is my first cousin fire up the SXS and go load the kids deer, they already had the 8pt buck dressed and hanging when i got back to camp, kid said he shot the buck at 35 yards slightly quartering toward him, slipped the 62gr TBBC in tight behind the shoulder crease, said it nearly knocked the buck down chest first, recovered and hop staggered 10 yards and fell dead.
I found a 1.5" exit hole in the hanging bucks flank, dad said when he opened the buck it looked like he swallowed a stick of dynamite, dad was also a Mil medic back in the Fallujah days, i asked him about that load for two leggers, haha, forget them, they be done, LOL plenty good enough in my book, and glad to find out what the little 62gr TBBC's at 3100 fps will do from the 223.
I don’t have any experience pushing the 88’s faster as I’m lacking any 22-250’s or 22 Creeds, but I think there is merit in “just enough” velocity and vicious twist rates. I do know that under the onside front quarter there was a hole the diameter of a beer can bored through both sides of the ribcage and the lungs on both the moose and the bear. We’ve smashed quite a few deer/moose/elk/bears with 105 Amax’s from 243AI’s with similar distances and bullet placement, and the permanent wound channels from 105’s/ 9 twist are not as big as the 1:7/88, but thats a sample of 7 heartbeats with 88’s this fall so statistically insignificant relatively speaking.
As to the HOW of it, pretty simple to pull the mag block out of a short action Rem 700, and you are there.
Great stuff Kodiak. Great accounts with the 88/223.
I love these threads. So far there have been lots of fantastical observations from the nay camp, like digging a 0.224” bullet out of a found dead animal and determining it was fired from a 223 (man I hope that guy is working forensics solving crimes somewhere!) to the “a bigger bullet would have resulted in us finding it, but it was shot perfectly! stories.
You can’t read more than any 10 threads on the fire before you read “Bullets matter more than headstamps”, and that ain’t wrong.
Bullet construction and twist rate that it is spun with matter more than anyone really contemplates for the most part, other thanthe guys who understand it know what it means, and I would bet 9/10 of those guys wouldn’t even blink about a fast twist 223 and a good bullet on a whitetail at ANY range.
I’ve killed a [bleep] of stuff (or been there spotting the hit over a shoulder) with fast and slow twist 223/223AI with bullets from 45 gr mono’s to 88 gr ELD-M. Even the difference in terminal effects between a 75 Amax when spun at 1:9” versus 1:7” is noticeable when started at the same muzzle velocity.
We didn’t do a ton of business up here this fall with 223AI’s, but from what I saw, a 1:7 twist with an 88 ELD-m is a ridiculously underrated combination. The stuff we did kill though, was bang-flopped-dead with both shoulders crushed.
There isn’t a deer walking the planet that I would hesitate to poke an 88 through a shoulder from any angle, at any range that I would shoot a deer at, and in way up North on the East border of BC, they don’t build ‘em much bigger anywhere.
I’ll just put this here… 150 yards, oat fed bear in November. 88 ELD-m, both shoulders and an exit.
Originally Posted by KodiakHntr
And if anyone has killed a whitetail bigger than this with ANY cartridge, I’d be REAL surprised.
175 yards, both shoulders broken, 88 ELD-m caught under the hide on the offside.
Imgur is being a bitch today and not letting me upload the pic of the 3” hole through the ribs that was under the onside shoulder after it was lifted off.
No fuss, no muss, no drama. Shot, half turn, fell down and kicked a leg and that was it. 2 seconds between impact and dead. And I weren’t guessing on what the results were going to be before I touched off the shot.
picking nits, they don't die in 2 seconds. But the simple fact that it never moved after the shot is pretty cool. Same with brain shots. They aren't dead instantly but they don't move much if any while bleeding out and before the heart stops.
The 223 has worked fine for years. We've used it since the 80s. Prefer bullets that don't leave those huge holes but thats easy to control. Never a fan of slow twist. Have preferred a fast twist a long time now. Still have a few 223 AR in 6.5 twist. And have a 70 barrel on the shelf in 6 twist 223 that has never been used yet. There may come a day when I find a SA 70 action to play with.
This subject has probably been beat to death on various forums, but what say the 'Fire? Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
picking nits, they don't die in 2 seconds. But the simple fact that it never moved after the shot is pretty cool. Same with brain shots. They aren't dead instantly but they don't move much if any while bleeding out and before the heart stops.
Definitely picked all the nits out of that…. My apologies, would “hunched his shoulders at impact and rolled over. Not sure how long the electrical impulses kept his heart beating, but he fell down before I could get second hole in him and I run a bolt gun pretty quick and was expecting to hit him twice before I shot the first time” have been better? 😂
For the past 5 seasons we have used 223, 22-250, and 22 creedmoor pretty much exclusively. Looking back, I’m not sure if I can tell much difference in performance between the 3 cartridges. The 223 has become my favorite cartridge. We have used the Nosler 64gr bonded, 55gr and 75gr gold dot, 77gr TMK, 77gr SMK, 75gr ELDM, Hornady 55gr Sp, 70gr Accubond, and 60gr partition. Deer and hog were hunted, and shot from as close as 15 feet all the way out to 300 yards. All of the bullets listed have worked great. The 77gr TMK in the 223 is just absolutely amazing.
Of those bullets have any given consistent exits at ranges up to 100 yards? I’ve used 64 BSB and 77TMK (great performance) and gotten no exits at around 50 yards. Deer sure didn’t go far so it didn’t really matter. Wasnt to try the 75gr Gold Dot but it’s unobtanium. Have some 62grTTSX but have some concern about longer follow ups.
For the nay sayers, have had no exits with 140gr Pro Hunters from 7-08 and 140 gr BT from 7mag as well.
Thanks.
Frank
The only .224 bullets I haven’t caught yet are the 62gr TBBC and the 75gr Gold Dot.
Have been actively looking for the 75gr Gold Dots. Don’t believe there are any, anywhere.
For the past 5 seasons we have used 223, 22-250, and 22 creedmoor pretty much exclusively. Looking back, I’m not sure if I can tell much difference in performance between the 3 cartridges. The 223 has become my favorite cartridge. We have used the Nosler 64gr bonded, 55gr and 75gr gold dot, 77gr TMK, 77gr SMK, 75gr ELDM, Hornady 55gr Sp, 70gr Accubond, and 60gr partition. Deer and hog were hunted, and shot from as close as 15 feet all the way out to 300 yards. All of the bullets listed have worked great. The 77gr TMK in the 223 is just absolutely amazing.
Of those bullets have any given consistent exits at ranges up to 100 yards? I’ve used 64 BSB and 77TMK (great performance) and gotten no exits at around 50 yards. Deer sure didn’t go far so it didn’t really matter. Wasnt to try the 75gr Gold Dot but it’s unobtanium. Have some 62grTTSX but have some concern about longer follow ups.
For the nay sayers, have had no exits with 140gr Pro Hunters from 7-08 and 140 gr BT from 7mag as well.
Thanks.
Frank
The only .224 bullets I haven’t caught yet are the 62gr TBBC and the 75gr Gold Dot.
Have been actively looking for the 75gr Gold Dots. Don’t believe there are any, anywhere.
When the TBBC’s were discontinued I had a bunch of factory 223 ammo loaded with them. Needing those bullets for my 22-250 I pulled the bullets from the 223 factory ammo and replaced them with inexpensive 55gr Hornadys. Nothing was wasted, I still had 223 ammo (with Hornadys) and had TBBC’s for my 22-250. The same could be done with the Gold Dots if needed, just a suggestion.
For what it’s worth I’ve spoke to Speer and they assured me the component Gold Dots have not been discontinued, we’ll see I guess.
Shoot yeah, congrats to the boy and I never had a doubt that load of yours would clean any bucks clock! Nice stuff!
You bet Big B, that amount of penetration surprised the hell out of me, had to be near two feet, need to get the Adder mounted up on that little Ruger and go smack some dark thirty pigs! ; ]
Thanks LBP. Wanting components but can’t even find 75gr Gold Dots in loaded ammo.
I was at GT Distributor’s down in Austin about a month ago and they had tons of 75gr gold dot ammo in stock. Currently they’re sold out but keep an eye on them as they get new inventory regularly. Good luck with your search, it really is a great bullet.
77TMK at 200yds this evening. Late season doe I collected for some friends caught it center of the rib cage angling forward to exit the opposite shoulder. She staggered about 5 steps and folded up. Typical lung soup produced by the TMK, no deer on earth could survive that I don’t care what state it’s from.
77TMK at 200yds this evening. Late season doe I collected for some friends caught it center of the rib cage angling forward to exit the opposite shoulder. She staggered about 5 steps and folded up. Typical lung soup produced by the TMK, no deer on earth could survive that I don’t care what state it’s from.
77TMK at 200yds this evening. Late season doe I collected for some friends caught it center of the rib cage angling forward to exit the opposite shoulder. She staggered about 5 steps and folded up. Typical lung soup produced by the TMK, no deer on earth could survive that I don’t care what state it’s from.
Any idea of the mv, just curious.
I’m guessing somewhere in the neighborhood of 2650-2700. I haven’t chronoed it so I really don’t know but I’m shooting 25gr LVR out of an 18” barrel.
77TMK at 200yds this evening. Late season doe I collected for some friends caught it center of the rib cage angling forward to exit the opposite shoulder. She staggered about 5 steps and folded up. Typical lung soup produced by the TMK, no deer on earth could survive that I don’t care what state it’s from.
Any idea of the mv, just curious.
I’m guessing somewhere in the neighborhood of 2650-2700. I haven’t chronoed it so I really don’t know but I’m shooting 25gr LVR out of an 18” barrel.
It definitely worked. I have some that I need to work up a load for in my 223’s. My 22-250 launches them at 3150, I wonder if at that velocity it would be too much of a good thing.
I'm just now starting to come over to the dark side and join the stunt shooters. I recently started a thread asking for load advice using the .223 and 62gr. TBBC bullets. While in Mississippi, I had my brother hunt with his Ruger American .223 using the ammo I loaded. I had committed to making my season a lever gun season, the reason he was testing the loading for me.
Having seen the results, I would not hesitate to use it for any deer. I ordered a thousand bullets tonight to go with what I've already bought. I'll also be testing loads for the 77gr. TMK bullets I've purchased and hope to use on deer next season. Below is a link to the thread and results on loading and hunting with the .223 load.
This subject has probably been beat to death on various forums, but what say the 'Fire? Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
its not the cartridge... it is the shooter and shot placement and picking the right bullet...
despite popular theory, deer are not armor plated... nor is much other game....
on an experiment, I shot a post card piece of 3/8 inch thick steel target at 200 yds, my load was 12.5 grains of Blue Dot with a Hornady 55 grain SP bullet.. MV was about 2600 fps..
The bullet bore right thru the steel plate...
Same combination, but making a regular Military Spec 3150 fps MV with a common powder, when the same type of plate was shot at 100 yds, the bullet splattered on the plate...5 in a row... then used the 12.5 grains of Blue Dot and the same bullet, with a MV of 2600 fps, and shot at it at 100 yds..that bored thru the plate each time...
Well the military load would certainly kill the deer, and if that bullet moving slower will drill thru a steel plate, I'm sure it will drill thru a deer or antelope....I've not been there, but loaded the Blue Dot loads for kids ( scouts), and they've been hunting with grandpa and dad, and it took down blacktail deer just fine...
Yes. I have done it many times under 125 yards. 223 Rem 55 grain Sierra
Game king? If so that is a hell of a deer bullet from the .22 calibers. Usually puts em down right where they stand. If they travel its less than 20 yards.
This subject has probably been beat to death on various forums, but what say the 'Fire? Is the .223 Remington an adequate cartridge for deer out to a distance of 250 yards? Let the schit-slinging begin.
its not the cartridge... it is the shooter and shot placement and picking the right bullet...
despite popular theory, deer are not armor plated... nor is much other game....
on an experiment, I shot a post card piece of 3/8 inch thick steel target at 200 yds, my load was 12.5 grains of Blue Dot with a Hornady 55 grain SP bullet.. MV was about 2600 fps..
The bullet bore right thru the steel plate...
Same combination, but making a regular Military Spec 3150 fps MV with a common powder, when the same type of plate was shot at 100 yds, the bullet splattered on the plate...5 in a row... then used the 12.5 grains of Blue Dot and the same bullet, with a MV of 2600 fps, and shot at it at 100 yds..that bored thru the plate each time...
Well the military load would certainly kill the deer, and if that bullet moving slower will drill thru a steel plate, I'm sure it will drill thru a deer or antelope....I've not been there, but loaded the Blue Dot loads for kids ( scouts), and they've been hunting with grandpa and dad, and it took down blacktail deer just fine...
That's pretty much been common knowledge for ever. That's the reason the energy numbers on bullets is a bunch of BS. You have to kill stuff to know what your bullet is really doing. It's been proven time and again that bullets matter more than caliber for hunting or target shooting.
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