This is a solution looking for a problem. Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of issues effecting deer hunting in PA, but this isn’t a solution to any of them.
A couple facts: -There’s no hunting of game on Sundays in PA -Rifle Season opens the Monday after Thanksgiving. -There’s no school the Monday after Thanksgiving.
Opening Saturday to then close on Sunday and reopen on Monday is ludicrous.
This is a move by non-hunters to eliminate Monday as a school holiday, getting kids back to school so non-hunter parents don’t have to deal with them.
This is a solution looking for a problem. Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of issues effecting deer hunting in PA, but this isn’t a solution to any of them.
A couple facts: -There’s no hunting of game on Sundays in PA -Rifle Season opens the Monday after Thanksgiving. -There’s no school the Monday after Thanksgiving.
Opening Saturday to then close on Sunday and reopen on Monday is ludicrous.
This is a move by non-hunters to eliminate Monday as a school holiday, getting kids back to school so non-hunter parents don’t have to deal with them.
That’s the road map.
Many schools have already eliminated that Monday as a day off. This move is being done to pave the way for Sunday hunting.
I'll be flamed for this, have been before. Others may have different perspective, this applies to my area.
It really hard to interest a kid in hunting the deer that aren't there for them to see.
My daughter is a persistent kid, she doesn't quit. And she loves to hunt, she wants to go, but does get discouraged. Kids that are less driven, just quit.
They are waiting for the results of the special CWD permits to come in. If the kill, which is in addition to the normal doe kill, isn't high enough, they intend to net and shoot or sharpshoot hundreds of deer in our area.
Saturday opening is a red herring. It will make a non vacation hunting day for some. Here? The schools close, and most employers close if possible for the Monday opener. It is a paid holiday for me.
Pave the way for Sunday hunting... Sunday hunting is a separate issue. If people want hunting on Sunday, then that should be the issue at hand. Hunting is dying. This isn’t an answer. This is just more movement in the wrong direction.
The PGC can't give us an extra day to hunt, they can't give us Sunday hunting, they can't give us semi auto rifles. Why? Because of tradition. It wasn't done that way in 1975 around here so it can never change. The hunters here will not allow progress.
Don't worry. It will never pass the April meetings. Nothing can change here. Progress is always stopped. It's 1975 forever here. We won't get this, we won't get Sundays, and we won't get semi-autos.
The PGC can't give us an extra day to hunt, they can't give us Sunday hunting, they can't give us semi auto rifles. Why? Because of tradition. It wasn't done that way in 1975 around here so it can never change. The hunters here will not allow progress.
It’s the anti-hunting and anti-gun lobbies. It’s not the hunters.
They’re a patient lot, happy to slowly peel away what’s sacred.
You’ve got your enemies and priorities all mixed up. That’s their goal.
Don't worry. It will never pass the April meetings. Nothing can change here. Progress is always stopped. It's 1975 forever here. We won't get this, we won't get Sundays, and we won't get semi-autos.
Progress is a myth, at least the way you’re spelling it.
Excuses. The PGC does exactly what they want. Talk to their biologists. They are told to go do a survey and report the findings and their recommendations.
The policies that follow, frequently are much different than the biologists recommend. That was straight from one i personally know.
The deer management program was overwhelmingly opposed by hunters. It didn't even stutter. It was implemented.
Flintlock hunters begged for decades for an early season to hunt like bowhunters. They started putting in-line ads in the Reg. Book. Within two years, early season, including in lines.
Ditto the crossbows.
Anyone who thinks the PGC is anything but corrupt, isn't paying attention.
New York's Southern zone season used to open on Monday. I'm glad they finally changed it to Saturday and so is damn near everybody else now. There were freaked out tradionalists who screamed loud and long against it, saying it would ruin the sport. Most of those retards have shut up and now enjoy the Saturday opener as much as the rest of us. Same story for Sunday hunting. Used to be illegal in large portions of the state. Thankfully hunters and DEC were able to pull their heads out of their collective asses and told the religious zealots to GFY and dropped that puritanical bullshyt years ago.
New York's Southern zone season used to open on Monday. I'm glad they finally changed it to Saturday and so is damn near everybody else now. There were freaked out tradionalists who screamed loud and long against it, saying it would ruin the sport. Most of those retards have shut up and now enjoy the Saturday opener as much as the rest of us. Same story for Sunday hunting. Used to be illegal in large portions of the state. Thankfully hunters and DEC were able to pull their heads out of their collective asses and told the religious zealots to GFY and dropped that puritanical bullshyt years ago.
You guys open a week before we do.
Totally, different situation.
Lots of folks near the long border on the Southern Tier hunt both sides.
This is about one issue, changing the opening day of one of Pennsylvania’s numerous whitetail deer seasons.
They keep talking that here in Michigan, the northern part of the state the schools are closed for opening day of deer season! DNR dont care about tradition, all the care about is $$$$ In Michigan anyway!
Rifle hunting in PA has never been more strained. It starts after the rut. The simultaneous wane in hunter turnout and rapid increases in the posting of private lands have had a greater effect on the character of PA’s rifle season than anything else. Decades of expanding earlier seasons during the rut, and antler restrictions have further challenged the tradition. The PA rifle season is nearer the margins than ever.
In an era marked by the most extreme deterioration of the culture of PA Deer hunting camps, ours is strong. We have a dedicated membership with guys coming in from all over the place. We’ve got young kids coming to camp for their first deer hunts, for the camaraderie, to joining the hunt, hear the stories, and bear to witness fabled shenanigans.
Like many of our historic holidays, seasons are moved around to fit weekends, holidays, etc. Historically, Idaho used to open deer season on Oct 5. Did not make any difference what day of the week that might be. I liked that as I could do my vacation days whenever. Especially liked the Monday openers as one had 4 or 5 days out before he saw another hunter. Now they move around the weekend schedules.
The eastern state's Sunday deal likely hurts whatever non-resident funds they collect. One shows up and has to take a day off in the middle of the season. Just hanging on to the Puritan ways I guess.
The PGC can't give us an extra day to hunt, they can't give us Sunday hunting, they can't give us semi auto rifles. Why? Because of tradition. It wasn't done that way in 1975 around here so it can never change. The hunters here will not allow progress.
What progress have they made? From where I sit, they phugged everything up. More posted land than ever before(and that will explode if they add a Saturday opener and Sunday hunting). They put herd numbers at an all time low in most areas where small towns where already struggling. The Saturday bear opener further hurt small business. Not only did that move hurt small business, we saw an explosion in the bear population. They can blame that on weather all they want but its complete horseschit! Hunters no longer took the amount of vacation time they used to. And thats only going to get worse. And im phuggin tired of hearing hunters dont have enough time in the woods, the phuggin Dept. of Labor statistics have shown for years that the majority of employees in PA who accrued vacation time do not use it all!
They tried to create a hunting mecca. This isnt phuggin Iowa and never will be! Every year it gets worse. You have a small minority of hunters on private land extolling the virtues of herd reduction and antler restrictions, and the majority of private land hunters bitching they dont see phuggin deer. No schit! Theyre all sitting in their phuggin blinds not moving a damn thing. The GC sits back and takes it all in, because they know the worse it gets the easier itll be to implement Sunday hunting. Greedy phuggin a$$holes! Progress my white ass! Tell me how the forest is doing you stupid sob. Tell me how the breeding season has changed for the better! Tell me how the buck are bigger. Dumb mfers!
I tell ya what. I said it multiple times today, and in every phuggin email I sent to legislators. Its time to abolish this schit show and combine the phuggin agencies! Under one roof. Under the general fund. Then we can vote the cock suckers out when they pull stunts like this!!
Just like NY and everywhere else. It's trophy hunting, the fascination with antlers and fierce competition for same that has been most responsible for posted signs going up and refusal to let folks hunt that has ruined the sport. Back when I started hunting there was unposted private land all over the place and nobody cared if you hunted it. That was before the big antlers or bust mentality set in. Farmers tended to look at deer as corn and alfalfa munching pests and hunters just wanted a little recreation and to fill their tags with a legal deer. Nobody planted food plots and any legal buck was a good buck worthy of taking. Now they're {antlered bucks} far too valuable as status symbols to braggarts so they lock up the land, eliminate the competition, feed the deer and raise their own personal trophies to the detriment of the sport overall. You want to see the enemy and the biggest reason hunter numbers continue to decline ? If you're a glassy eyed, died in the wool, deer feeding, QDM fanatical trophy hunter, just look in the mirror.
I grew up in W PA during the 1950's & 1960's. I remember my father saying that the 1st day of deer was set at the Monday after Thanksgiving because most hunters had to put in for their vacation ( ie, the 1st day of deer ) by either March 1st or April 1st to get the day off. Of course, the PGC couldn't vote on when the season started until sometime in late April or May. That's why it starts the way it does. I never could understand, and sitll don't, why if you buy a doe permit you can't use it anytime during the gun season.
I've got 3 main beefs with moving the opener to the Saturday after Thanksgiving:
1) There is currently small game and turkey hunting on that day. In the past, I've done a lot of deer scouting while small game hunting (I hunt both in the same area) on that Saturday. That option would be lost.
2) Currently, I go to my daughters house near Reading for Thanksgiving, come home to Somerset on Saturday and go to my hunting area near DuBois on Sunday. With the Saturday opener, when do I travel and repack from 'family clothes' to 'hunting clothes'? Leave her house (and the grandkids) on Thanksgiving? Drive all day on Friday and end up dead tired for Saturday? Both of those options suck big time.
3) With Sundays currently closed for hunting of most species (coyotes, foxes, and crows are legal to hunt in Pa. on Sunday), what is there to do? Drink all day? Drive home so I can go to work on Monday? Target shoot and scare the deer more?
For me, it doesn't solve anything and only creates more problems.
I always wondered why it ain't open earlier in November.
In part, because Bear season is the week before. PA manages its black bear population through a combination of season timing and hunt structure. The season opens after breed females are expected to have denned up. It’s illegal to shoot a bear in a den, over/near/enroute to or from bait, or to hunt bear with dogs. The regular bear season is four days long.
I always wondered why it ain't open earlier in November.
The rut. The majority of doe are bread around the 16th. An earlier season would have disastrous effect on reproduction.
Why?
Start rifle before theyre bred and the numbers drop drastically. Hell, we already have doe going without being bred due to such low numbers in certain areas. Case in point. 2G. Kept allocation numbers the same, called it stabilization. Yet the numbers werent coming back. Buck couldnt breed all the doe. After a big outcry, they played their little phuggin game to appease hunters. Split 2G into 2G and 2H. On paper it looked like they lowered the allocation, but add both WMUs up and they actually increase tag allocation! On top of that they increase DMAP in some areas, further lowering deer numbers. Hunters ate it up, but still bitch and moan they dont see deer. No schit! Do another FLIR study and see how many they find. They phugged it all up.
I always wondered why it ain't open earlier in November.
In part, because Bear season is the week before. PA manages its black bear population through a combination of season timing and hunt structure. The season opens after breed females are expected to have denned up. It’s illegal to shoot a bear in a den, over/near/enroute to or from bait, or to hunt bear with dogs. The regular bear season is four days long.
Bear has nothing to do with it. With the bear population on the rise, theyll love having the extra pressure. Saturday opener killed the number of hunters that hunted the previous 3 day season.
PA has some of the strangest most rediculous deer hunting laws I’ve ever heard of. You want more days to your season. Allow hunting on sundays for a start.
the virginia commission did this several years back to increase the amount of people hunting the first day..... unfortunately it made it harder for me as i needed to take an extra day off from work to get to deer camp on friday to be ready for the deer hunting season....i guess it works for some but not for all
The PGC can't give us an extra day to hunt, they can't give us Sunday hunting, they can't give us semi auto rifles. Why? Because of tradition. It wasn't done that way in 1975 around here so it can never change. The hunters here will not allow progress.
It’s the anti-hunting and anti-gun lobbies. It’s not the hunters.
They’re a patient lot, happy to slowly peel away what’s sacred.
You’ve got your enemies and priorities all mixed up. That’s their goal.
No Brian it's a lot of hunters fighting the no Sunday hunting because of "tradition"
Locally no business close on opening day anymore. Hell most construction companies don't even lay off anymore.
I've talked with one of the 8 commissioners quite a bit about this and he is definitely not out to kill hunting and has dedicated his life to getting kids involved in hunting. The fact is that even though the schools have the day off any kid participating in school sports is still made to come to "non mandatory" practices. And no those practices aren't held at night.
I was a state ranked wrestler. My senior year, the last practice before Thanksgiving our coach told us we would be practicing Friday morning, Saturday morning and opening day of buck at 9 am. Several of us spoke up and said we wouldn't be there. He wouldn't relent. So in unison 11 seniors. Most of his starting front. 7 of us ranked highly in the state and expecting to return to Hershey stood up and walked out quitting the team.
There is no reason that they will cut a day off the season. And we have president that follows that with lengthening bear season which now starts the Saturday before Thanksgiving
I've got 3 main beefs with moving the opener to the Saturday after Thanksgiving:
1) There is currently small game and turkey hunting on that day. In the past, I've done a lot of deer scouting while small game hunting (I hunt both in the same area) on that Saturday. That option would be lost.
2) Currently, I go to my daughters house near Reading for Thanksgiving, come home to Somerset on Saturday and go to my hunting area near DuBois on Sunday. With the Saturday opener, when do I travel and repack from 'family clothes' to 'hunting clothes'? Leave her house (and the grandkids) on Thanksgiving? Drive all day on Friday and end up dead tired for Saturday? Both of those options suck big time.
3) With Sundays currently closed for hunting of most species (coyotes, foxes, and crows are legal to hunt in Pa. on Sunday), what is there to do? Drink all day? Drive home so I can go to work on Monday? Target shoot and scare the deer more?
For me, it doesn't solve anything and only creates more problems.
Dale
I can't even wrap my head around that one. You deer hunt and small game hunt the same area. You small game hunt that Saturday and scout for the opener on Monday.
So going there to small game hunt is no problem on Saturday, but somehow going there to deer hunt on Saturday is a PIA. On top of that, you can't keep yourself occupied for 12 hours on Sunday, so the season needs to open on Monday.
Very confusing.
Also apparently bear mating, sleep and deer fugging all factors in, as well as the Blue laws. Yep, sounds groovy.
I still have yet to hear an argument for why this makes sense. Having to take a day off to go hunting is not a reason.
This has nothing to do with Sundays. Folding all these issues together is a unwise. If you want to hunt Monday, hunt Monday. Anything else is concession—it’s letting it all slip away. I’ve hunted this season for over thirty years. The commitment I’ve made to making it happen over the last twenty is considerable. It’s never been convenient.
Rescheduling opening day of rifle season out of convenience is a huge mistake. Like Thanksgiving, Christmas, and the 4th of July, it’s perfectly inconvenient.
NY did the same and moved to a Saturday opener,the major difference is you can hunt Sunday the next day.It's stupid to have a Saturday opener then not be able to hunt the next day....fools
I still have yet to hear an argument for why this makes sense. Having to take a day off to go hunting is not a reason.
This has nothing to do with Sundays. Folding all these issues together is a unwise. If you want to hunt Monday, hunt Monday. Anything else is concession—it’s letting it all slip away. I’ve hunted this season for over thirty years. The commitment I’ve made to making it happen over the last twenty is considerable. It’s never been convenient.
Rescheduling opening day of rifle season out of convenience is a huge mistake. Like Thanksgiving, Christmas, and the 4th of July, it’s perfectly inconvenient.
I agree completely on tradition.
That said, if they moved it 2 weeks earlier on a Monday so it coincided with the rut, would that be a problem? Or is it the 1st Monday after Thanksgiving or nothing?
I still have yet to hear an argument for why this makes sense. Having to take a day off to go hunting is not a reason.
This has nothing to do with Sundays. Folding all these issues together is a unwise. If you want to hunt Monday, hunt Monday. Anything else is concession—it’s letting it all slip away. I’ve hunted this season for over thirty years. The commitment I’ve made to making it happen over the last twenty is considerable. It’s never been convenient.
Rescheduling opening day of rifle season out of convenience is a huge mistake. Like Thanksgiving, Christmas, and the 4th of July, it’s perfectly inconvenient.
I agree completely on tradition.
That said, if they moved it 2 weeks earlier on a Monday so it coincided with the rut, would that be a problem? Or is it the 1st Monday after Thanksgiving or nothing?
The deer movement usually sucks the 1st Monday after Thanksgiving in Pa. I've hunted it enough to know it's not really worth jumping through hoops to make the trip unless I just want to spend time hunting with my pard that lives down there....hell he doesn't even hunt the opener in Pa. any more he drives to Ohio as it's the same day
Maryland has opened on the Saturday after T'giving for probably as long as PA has done the Monday thing. No big deal. I hunt only PA the second week of the season anyway. What I would do if I were King would be to open Sunday hunting in PA also- there's one I never did understand.
I think it boils down to a lot of PA guys not wanting to interfere with the Weekend Before Hunting Season Deer Camp Traditions. I was smitten with that myself during the 20 years I lived in PA- head up to camp Friday after T'Giving, scout/small game hunt/sight in/plink/drink beer on Saturday, hit a couple bars Friday and Saturday night, chill out on Sunday, and hit it Monday morning.
I still have yet to hear an argument for why this makes sense. Having to take a day off to go hunting is not a reason.
This has nothing to do with Sundays. Folding all these issues together is a unwise. If you want to hunt Monday, hunt Monday. Anything else is concession—it’s letting it all slip away. I’ve hunted this season for over thirty years. The commitment I’ve made to making it happen over the last twenty is considerable. It’s never been convenient.
Rescheduling opening day of rifle season out of convenience is a huge mistake. Like Thanksgiving, Christmas, and the 4th of July, it’s perfectly inconvenient.
I agree completely on tradition.
That said, if they moved it 2 weeks earlier on a Monday so it coincided with the rut, would that be a problem? Or is it the 1st Monday after Thanksgiving or nothing?
The deer movement usually sucks the 1st Monday after Thanksgiving in Pa. I've hunted it enough to know it's not really worth jumping through hoops to make the trip unless I just want to spend time hunting with my pard that lives down there....hell he doesn't even hunt the opener in Pa. any more he drives to Ohio as it's the same day
PA's rifle season is on the margins now more than anytime since the Great War. PA has so many other seasons early, the deer are all on high alert and they've gone nocturnal. Typically, having hunters in the woods moves deer during daylight. There'll be the odd straggler doe getting chased late and still hunting is an always an option, but the dynamic has really changed. All it takes is a modest sanctuary, off limits to hunters and that's where they'll spend the daylight hours.
Massive amounts of private land have been posted. Some is hunted, but very little of it experiences the kind of pressure (activity) it did when there were more hunters who were roaming around and with fewer boundaries. Opening the rifle season on Saturday does nothing to challenge the forces straining PA's hunting traditions. Opening Sunday to hunting year round, might create an opportunity to bring in younger hunters, but we're talking about kids who've got busier schedules than many adults. It's a tough situation.
At least for now deer hunting is memorialized in the form of an, albeit inconveniently placed, unofficial holiday on the Monday after Thanksgiving. It might not be the best season to hunt trophy bucks, but most who've lived it would agree it's about so much more than that.
I started hunting in PA in 1947, which made last season my 72 nd. In 1947 and into the early 50s there were "antler restrictions", requiring at least one antler to have a fork or put another way a Y on at least one side regardless of antler length. It was later changed to the 3" spike length to pacify hunters. It took at least 8/9 hours assuming good weather/roads to drive the roughly 250 miles from where I lived in lower bucks co. to Cameron co. That because it was all 2 lane roads that took you right thru every town along the way. But the roads were also cluttered with cars containing other hunters, and when you arrived in places like Sinnemahoning, it was booming with hunters. GET THIS, last fall on opening morning of buck season, there was just one lone hunter having breakfast in the dining room at the Slate Run Hotel, and that was a good friend of mine. Fact is that today, many of the nice old camps don't even open for deer season at all. Also today that same trip I mentioned can take less than 5 hours, and yet very few go. There are far more bear and nicer bucks than ever, not to even mention the abundant turkey population, but fewer hunters hunting them. There has never in my long lifetime been a better time for getting a trophy buck than there is today. The only thing lacking is the type hunters it requires to take one. Does it sound as though im touting on the good old days here? Driving to camp on Friday after work, and driving back home on Sunday afternoon with a deer, especially a buck, really never would work well regardless of which days we might be permitted to hunt, or what day the season opens, or what type rifle you can shoot it with. What will you be wanting next sonny, home delivery?
As for the PGC, im not a fan of government in any form, but even a semi independently run game department is far better than one controlled by the legislature and a governor completely. There is nothing the DCNR would like better than to be in "complete" control the game commission, same as they are over "our" public land.
I started hunting in PA in 1947, which made last season my 72 nd. In 1947 and into the early 50s there were "antler restrictions", requiring at least one antler to have a fork or put another way a Y on at least one side regardless of antler length. It was later changed to the 3" spike length to pacify hunters. It took at least 8/9 hours assuming good weather/roads to drive the roughly 250 miles from where I lived in lower bucks co. to Cameron co. That because it was all 2 lane roads that took you right thru every town along the way. But the roads were also cluttered with cars containing other hunters, and when you arrived in places like Sinnemahoning, it was booming with hunters. GET THIS, last fall on opening morning of buck season, there was just one lone hunter having breakfast in the dining room at the Slate Run Hotel, and that was a good friend of mine. Fact is that today, many of the nice old camps don't even open for deer season at all. Also today that same trip I mentioned can take less than 5 hours, and yet very few go. There are far more bear and nicer bucks than ever, not to even mention the abundant turkey population, but fewer hunters hunting them. There has never in my long lifetime been a better time for getting a trophy buck than there is today. The only thing lacking is the type hunters it requires to take one. Does it sound as though im touting on the good old days here? Driving to camp on Friday after work, and driving back home on Sunday afternoon with a deer, especially a buck, really never would work well regardless of which days we might be permitted to hunt, or what day the season opens, or what type rifle you can shoot it with. What will you be wanting next sonny, home delivery?
As for the PGC, im not a fan of government in any form, but even a semi independently run game department is far better than one controlled by the legislature and a governor completely. There is nothing the DCNR would like better than to be in "complete" control the game commission, same as they are over "our" public land.
And there that is! Really all I can do at this point is laugh. I often drive 2 hours to my hunting spot and then 2 hours home at the end of the day.
Like I said, you can't even give PA deer hunters an extra day. You can't give them anything or they bitch.
Who needs an extra day? If you need another day, there's a whole other statewide season starting Dec. 26. thorough Jan.12.
Convincing hunters that every issue, whim, and fancy needs to be rolled into one another guarantees the reign of the political machine. That's their game.
What's the upside in adding another day to an already marginal rifle season reeling from myriad pressures?
I started hunting in PA in 1947, which made last season my 72 nd. In 1947 and into the early 50s there were "antler restrictions", requiring at least one antler to have a fork or put another way a Y on at least one side regardless of antler length. It was later changed to the 3" spike length to pacify hunters. It took at least 8/9 hours assuming good weather/roads to drive the roughly 250 miles from where I lived in lower bucks co. to Cameron co. That because it was all 2 lane roads that took you right thru every town along the way. But the roads were also cluttered with cars containing other hunters, and when you arrived in places like Sinnemahoning, it was booming with hunters. GET THIS, last fall on opening morning of buck season, there was just one lone hunter having breakfast in the dining room at the Slate Run Hotel, and that was a good friend of mine. Fact is that today, many of the nice old camps don't even open for deer season at all. Also today that same trip I mentioned can take less than 5 hours, and yet very few go. There are far more bear and nicer bucks than ever, not to even mention the abundant turkey population, but fewer hunters hunting them. There has never in my long lifetime been a better time for getting a trophy buck than there is today. The only thing lacking is the type hunters it requires to take one. Does it sound as though im touting on the good old days here? Driving to camp on Friday after work, and driving back home on Sunday afternoon with a deer, especially a buck, really never would work well regardless of which days we might be permitted to hunt, or what day the season opens, or what type rifle you can shoot it with. What will you be wanting next sonny, home delivery?
As for the PGC, im not a fan of government in any form, but even a semi independently run game department is far better than one controlled by the legislature and a governor completely. There is nothing the DCNR would like better than to be in "complete" control the game commission, same as they are over "our" public land.
I always wondered why it ain't open earlier in November.
The rut. The majority of doe are bread around the 16th. An earlier season would have disastrous effect on reproduction.
Horse crap
"From 2000 to 2007, data on breeding dates from more than 2,500 females were collected. Average date of conception prior to APRs was November 17. Following APRs, average date of conception was November 16.
In Pennsylvania, most adult does are bred in mid-November and sexually mature female fawns tend to peak about two weeks later. Other aspects of breeding ecology, such as pregnancy rates and embryo counts, have also remained at stable and healthy levels.
Based on these data, it does not appear APRs significantly changed timing of breeding in Pennsylvania."
Put buck season earlier and that all goes out the window.
I always wondered why it ain't open earlier in November.
The rut. The majority of doe are bread around the 16th. An earlier season would have disastrous effect on reproduction.
Horse crap
"From 2000 to 2007, data on breeding dates from more than 2,500 females were collected. Average date of conception prior to APRs was November 17. Following APRs, average date of conception was November 16.
In Pennsylvania, most adult does are bred in mid-November and sexually mature female fawns tend to peak about two weeks later. Other aspects of breeding ecology, such as pregnancy rates and embryo counts, have also remained at stable and healthy levels.
Based on these data, it does not appear APRs significantly changed timing of breeding in Pennsylvania."
Put buck season earlier and that all goes out the window.
I always wondered why it ain't open earlier in November.
The rut. The majority of doe are bread around the 16th. An earlier season would have disastrous effect on reproduction.
Horse crap
"From 2000 to 2007, data on breeding dates from more than 2,500 females were collected. Average date of conception prior to APRs was November 17. Following APRs, average date of conception was November 16.
In Pennsylvania, most adult does are bred in mid-November and sexually mature female fawns tend to peak about two weeks later. Other aspects of breeding ecology, such as pregnancy rates and embryo counts, have also remained at stable and healthy levels.
Based on these data, it does not appear APRs significantly changed timing of breeding in Pennsylvania."
Put buck season earlier and that all goes out the window.
i'm big on tradition but i like this idea. should have done it years ago. shoot a deer on saturday, celebrate saturday night and butcher it on sunday and head home if you don't have monday off. this will make a big difference in hunting for me and my boys.
I've got 3 main beefs with moving the opener to the Saturday after Thanksgiving:
1) There is currently small game and turkey hunting on that day. In the past, I've done a lot of deer scouting while small game hunting (I hunt both in the same area) on that Saturday. That option would be lost.
2) Currently, I go to my daughters house near Reading for Thanksgiving, come home to Somerset on Saturday and go to my hunting area near DuBois on Sunday. With the Saturday opener, when do I travel and repack from 'family clothes' to 'hunting clothes'? Leave her house (and the grandkids) on Thanksgiving? Drive all day on Friday and end up dead tired for Saturday? Both of those options suck big time.
3) With Sundays currently closed for hunting of most species (coyotes, foxes, and crows are legal to hunt in Pa. on Sunday), what is there to do? Drink all day? Drive home so I can go to work on Monday? Target shoot and scare the deer more?
For me, it doesn't solve anything and only creates more problems.
Dale
I can't even wrap my head around that one. You deer hunt and small game hunt the same area. You small game hunt that Saturday and scout for the opener on Monday.
So going there to small game hunt is no problem on Saturday, but somehow going there to deer hunt on Saturday is a PIA. On top of that, you can't keep yourself occupied for 12 hours on Sunday, so the season needs to open on Monday.
Very confusing.
Also apparently bear mating, sleep and deer fugging all factors in, as well as the Blue laws. Yep, sounds groovy.
Sorry Scott, I tried to be clear but didn't make it. Item 1 (small game and scouting) happened when I lived in that area and it was easy to go hunting but I don't live there anymore. Item 2 (traveling) is what happens now. Moving the opener to that Saturday really limits my travel time to the Friday after Thanksgiving. It does that same for a lot of other hunters who travel to 'camp'.
Opening day is still opening day. I don’t thin’ it’s ever been a different day in my life so it’s very interesting reading different perspectives here. You’d think having opening day on a non work day traditionally is better. You can bet your azz the politicians commissioners etc. make decisions based on reason$.
I think that if I lived in PA, I'd be having a celebration. They're giving you an extra day to hunt and moving the opener to Saturday. So some people who have to work, don't have to take off or miss opening day. Sounds like a Win/Win situation to me.
In Maryland, opening day has always been on Saturday. Like you, it's been a tradition. Most people here, don't actually go to Deer Camp. Like most people here, I just walk out my door and 45 minutes later I'm sitting in my tree stand. Logistically, I can see how this might screw up people's routine. If it's that much trouble, just keep on doing what you do. Up until a few years ago, it was illegal to hunt on Sunday here. Sunday seemed as though it was like a cool down day after the place was shot up on Saturday. I always thought it was beneficial for the hunting on Monday. Now we can hunt on Sunday here and it hasn't changed a damn thing.
We're only about a 30 to 60 minute drive from the PA line. If you drive past the parking areas at the public hunting lands on Saturday, 75% of the vehicles have PA tags. If PA changes to Saturday, it might keep those "Penntuckians" from coming down here a scaring all of our deer.
Changing hunting seasons can be problematic for a lot of people though. Up until 1990, our gun season was only one week long, Saturday to Saturday. So basically, if you had to work during the week, it only gave you two days to hunt. Our deer population was exploding and DNR had to do something. So they extended it another week. The waterfowl hunters went crazy because it was cutting a week out of their 6 month long hunting season. I was hunting a lot of geese back then, but I loved to hunt deer too, so I welcomed it.
I do business with a lot of people in North East PA and most of those guys hunt. I'm going to ask them what they think about this the next time I talk to them.
All I can say is that if they change it, it won't be the end of the world and everybody will adapt.
Maybe they should take a lesson from Idaho's experience. Years ago, Idaho's opening day was on Saturday. Then we had a spell when deer numbers dropped way down. They switched it to Wednesday to cut the opening day pressure and to hopefully have more deer survive. After deer numbers revived, many hunters wanted to return to Saturday while others preferred an opener with lower hunter numbers. They compromised by going to a date rather than a day of the week. General season opens Oct 10 (5th in some areas with larger deer numbers) no matter what day of the week it falls on. They did the same with elk, opening on Oct 15. It's been working well this way for a long time. No matter what day you prefer, it'll come around again in a few years.
Maryland has opened on the Saturday after T'giving for probably as long as PA has done the Monday thing. No big deal. I hunt only PA the second week of the season anyway. What I would do if I were King would be to open Sunday hunting in PA also- there's one I never did understand.
I think it boils down to a lot of PA guys not wanting to interfere with the Weekend Before Hunting Season Deer Camp Traditions. I was smitten with that myself during the 20 years I lived in PA- head up to camp Friday after T'Giving, scout/small game hunt/sight in/plink/drink beer on Saturday, hit a couple bars Friday and Saturday night, chill out on Sunday, and hit it Monday morning.
Pretty much sums it up for our group of camps.
I drove 2+ hours each way from NY and hunted every weekend this year (including second archery season) so I don't need 1 extra day. Half my vacation goes towards hunting, and don't rally care. We own a camp in area 1B, (among a group that was established in the late 40s). The groups of guys in these camps are extremely traditional and old school. Traditional to the point where no women are allowed at deer camp. Ever. We have a dinner the day after Thanksgiving that has been happening for over 40 years where around 30-35 people show up from surrounding camps. This is the only time most of us see these guys. We eat a ton of food, drink a ton of beer and shoot the shït for hours. Hell, guys still throw in $1 for the buck pool hoping it goes to one of the kids on opening MONDAY. Saturday hunting would destroy this for us.
I agree with most of you that they opening Sunday hunting is more important to most of us, but keep the opening day of deer MONDAY.
Just pointing out that KY's gun season is at the height of the rut and the KY bucks seem to be gittin'-r-dun.
Is there something different about PA bucks?
Don’t know about the bucks being different, but yes, hunter participation and hunting pressure is much different in PA. The 2017-18 deer harvest in PA was 367,000 deer (that’s more than the total number of licensed hunters in KY) while in KY it was 130,000 deer (with MUCH more liberal bag limits). As previously stated a firearms season during peak rut would decimate the PA buck population. Just ask a PA rifle hunter what impact they think bow season during the rut has on the overall buck population.
We're only about a 30 to 60 minute drive from the PA line. If you drive past the parking areas at the public hunting lands on Saturday, 75% of the vehicles have PA tags. If PA changes to Saturday, it might keep those "Penntuckians" from coming down here a scaring all of our deer.
Just pointing out that KY's gun season is at the height of the rut and the KY bucks seem to be gittin'-r-dun.
Is there something different about PA bucks?
Don’t know about the bucks being different, but yes, hunter participation and hunting pressure is much different in PA. The 2017-18 deer harvest in PA was 367,000 deer while in KY it was 130,000 deer (with MUCH more liberal bag limits). As previously stated a firearms season during peak rut would decimate the PA buck population. Just ask a PA rifle hunter what impact they think bow season during the rut has on the overall buck population.
I think the point restriction has a big influence on the reproduction rates as well. Adding to your hunting pressure comment, before the point restriction, when most people saw antlers, pull the trigger, not allowing him the chance to do his thing. Now, that spike, forky, and small 6 has those three extra years to bang that many more does. Also, in the last 5 years or so, we see big boys on a regular basis. We pass on deer we would have had mounted 20 years ago.
Just pointing out that KY's gun season is at the height of the rut and the KY bucks seem to be gittin'-r-dun.
Is there something different about PA bucks?
Don’t know about the bucks being different, but yes, hunter participation and hunting pressure is much different in PA. The 2017-18 deer harvest in PA was 367,000 deer while in KY it was 130,000 deer (with MUCH more liberal bag limits). As previously stated a firearms season during peak rut would decimate the PA buck population. Just ask a PA rifle hunter what impact they think bow season during the rut has on the overall buck population.
I think the point restriction has a big influence on the reproduction rates as well. Adding to your hunting pressure comment, before the point restriction, when most people saw antlers, pull the trigger, not allowing him the chance to do his thing. Now, that spike, forky, and small 6 has those three extra years to bang that many more does. Also, in the last 5 years or so, we see big boys on a regular basis. We pass on deer we would have had mounted 20 years ago.
I’m not talking about reproduction rates, talking about PA rifle season coinciding with peak rut....
The increasing expansion of early seasons during the rut, declining rifle season participation and the posting of private lands are the three biggest factors effecting PA’s rifle season. Changing opening day would be devistating.
Just pointing out that KY's gun season is at the height of the rut and the KY bucks seem to be gittin'-r-dun.
Is there something different about PA bucks?
Don’t know about the bucks being different, but yes, hunter participation and hunting pressure is much different in PA. The 2017-18 deer harvest in PA was 367,000 deer (that’s more than the total number of licensed hunters in KY) while in KY it was 130,000 deer (with MUCH more liberal bag limits). As previously stated a firearms season during peak rut would decimate the PA buck population. Just ask a PA rifle hunter what impact they think bow season during the rut has on the overall buck population.
Montana's firearms season flows right on through the rut, most years. I try to kill my deer early for that reason. Rutty buck tastes...rutty. I can't imagine that hunting during the rut would make that much difference to breeding. They'd just do the deed on Sundays, when the hunters can't hunt.
Just pointing out that KY's gun season is at the height of the rut and the KY bucks seem to be gittin'-r-dun.
Is there something different about PA bucks?
Don’t know about the bucks being different, but yes, hunter participation and hunting pressure is much different in PA. The 2017-18 deer harvest in PA was 367,000 deer (that’s more than the total number of licensed hunters in KY) while in KY it was 130,000 deer (with MUCH more liberal bag limits). As previously stated a firearms season during peak rut would decimate the PA buck population. Just ask a PA rifle hunter what impact they think bow season during the rut has on the overall buck population.
A buck must be alive to git-r-dun.
PA has double the deer population too, correct?
I think that’s probably right.
Further, I’d interested in seeing a comparison of hunter and deer densities between the states an provinces where whitetails are hunted, but none of this has a lick to do with moving the PA rifle season opener from the first Monday after Thanksgiving to the first Saturday after Thanksgiving.
Yes, we have strayed off topic, but for what it’s worth....
Stats are from Realtree Antler Nation website:
KY is the #7 least pressured deer hunting state in the nation with a ratio of 4.2 deer to 1 license.
PA is the #11 most pressured deer hunting state in the nation with a ratio of 1.6 deer to 1 license.
Yeah, but 98% of that pressure is on the Monday after Thanksgiving and 50% of those with a license only hang around deer camp and cook, drink and play cards.
This is a solution looking for a problem. Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of issues effecting deer hunting in PA, but this isn’t a solution to any of them.
A couple facts: -There’s no hunting of game on Sundays in PA -Rifle Season opens the Monday after Thanksgiving. -There’s no school the Monday after Thanksgiving.
Opening Saturday to then close on Sunday and reopen on Monday is ludicrous.
This is a move by non-hunters to eliminate Monday as a school holiday, getting kids back to school so non-hunter parents don’t have to deal with them.
That’s the road map.
Bingo! I won’t allow guns in my house. My children don’t hunt. All kids should be in school learning why this is best for them. 😎
I don't know if the PGC is presenting this as a "solution" to anything. But you'd be, in Bugs Bunny speak, a maroon, to think this is going to sell a significant number of extra licenses or get a bunch of younger people into hunting. Some yes, but not a enough to make a difference. Without Sunday hunting this move is strange. Give us both days on the weekend then it makes more sense. Maybe that's the next step but if so, how about we move it along while we're still young enough and able to walk in the woods.
They need to fix the Sunday hunting issue before they worry about anything else. Most people, kids and adults alike only have weekends to hunt. Restricting them to only being able to hunt 50% of their free time is just not smart.
I agree on the Sunday's. I grew up hunting Pa. and Ohio and never even knew hunting on Sunday was legal elsewhere until I moved to Minnesota. My understanding is it's the farmers that hold this up, as they want a day of no hunting to get stuff done.
I agree on the Sunday's. I grew up hunting Pa. and Ohio and never even knew hunting on Sunday was legal elsewhere until I moved to Minnesota. My understanding is it's the farmers that hold this up, as they want a day of no hunting to get stuff done.
I always figured it was because of all of the Mennonites and Amish in PA and also probably goes all the way back to when everybody went to church. That's what I figured it was around here. Fortunately, we're allowed to hunt on Sundays now.
I just talked to a couple of different guys that I deal with up in NE PA. Those guys don't go to deer camp, they just drive up the road a few miles to where they have permission on private land. They think the Saturday thing is great, but they wish it was open on Sundays too.
At least I will be able to hunt with my sons again. They always have to work on that Monday. The number of guys that want off for that day and can't get it is ridiculous. Our deer camp will explode if this actually gets passed in April.
At least I will be able to hunt with my sons again. They always have to work on that Monday. The number of guys that want off for that day and can't get it is ridiculous. Our deer camp will explode if this actually gets passed in April.
At least I will be able to hunt with my sons again. They always have to work on that Monday. The number of guys that want off for that day and can't get it is ridiculous. Our deer camp will explode if this actually gets passed in April.
Doesn't anyone get vacation pay in PA?
Yes, there is vacation pay, but some small businesses would not be able to open if everyone who wanted to hunt took the first day off. First day of buck off is frequently granted on a seniority basis (believe the language spelling this out is even in some labor contracts) and the request for the day off is often put in a year in advance.
As Ken L said some people have to work on that Monday.
At least I will be able to hunt with my sons again. They always have to work on that Monday. The number of guys that want off for that day and can't get it is ridiculous. Our deer camp will explode if this actually gets passed in April.
Doesn't anyone get vacation pay in PA?
Not when you work at places with a bunch of guys that want to hunt and they are all asking for the same day off. They all have vacation time but it goes by seniority and they only let a few people off. I know three very large employers that practice this in PA because my two sons each work at one of them and my brother in law works at another.
I also know a number of college guys that will be happy to see this happen since none of them get the first Monday of deer either.
The only people I see complaining are the ones that don't want more people in the woods.
50% of those with a license only hang around deer camp and cook, drink and play cards.
And that’s deer camp!
No it isn't. Not the Deer Camps I've been a part of.
Same here. Sure, a little tomfoolery those couple of days before the Monday opener, but after that no way. In fact in the camp I was a member of for many years we had a rule of no drinking from Sunday night on and nobody bitched about it, not even the carousers. (Besides, once the season started we were always too tired at the end of the day to even crawl into our bunks let alone lift a pound of beer! Those rugged mountains force you to make your own luck- no walking to a tree house where you sit on your butt all day! )
50% of those with a license only hang around deer camp and cook, drink and play cards.
And that’s deer camp!
No it isn't. Not the Deer Camps I've been a part of.
Same here. Sure, a little tomfoolery those couple of days before the Monday opener, but after that no way. In fact in the camp I was a member of for many years we had a rule of no drinking from Sunday night on and nobody bitched about it, not even the carousers. (Besides, once the season started we were always too tired at the end of the day to even crawl into our bunks let alone lift a pound of beer! Those rugged mountains force you to make your own luck- no walking to a tree house where you sit on your butt all day! )
As the old timers get to being old timers, they tend to spend more time at camp. We take our hunting plenty serious. We're in the mountains on private land, surrounded by vast private lands. Neighbors make it a point to get along and reciprocate. Our camp tradition is thriving. It's a fun place to be. We don't have any rules per se and that's sort of the point. People do what they want, and are generally respectful of each other. Our only system of check and balances involves a tradition of pretty serious ribbing and an informal annual award. It's called the JOY award and is an acronym for [bleep] Of the Year. It's a contest that's been largely dominated by the same couple guys for decades.
The camp I hunted out of starting when I was twelve was an old old camp, half of it had dirt floors. It had a sink with a hand pump and an outhouse. It was at the foot of a huge Game Lands on a little stream side lot. The small parcel was secured with a 99 year lease by a vibrant group of friends after the first Great War. There were only two guys left. Two old timers that had fought in WWII and Korea. The one actually had another camp up the road. I was told it was the only camp around that had an inside toilet. It was explained that McMurty had his guts shot out in the war, so he got to have a toilet.
Those day's I was the only one that hunted. They'd drop me off at the Game Lands parking lot on top of the mountain an hour before first light with a thermos of coco and some some bologna sandwiches. I'd hunt all day and eventually find my way back to camp. The two old timers drank, played cards, shot the [bleep] and held court for a constant stream of visitors. That first year I shot a little buck way back in the bottom of a bowl. I didn't know what I was doing and didn't do a real good job of field dressing him. There was plenty of snow for the drag. A few hours into my wander out of the woods I ran into another hunter who was surprised to see a kid dragging a half gutted deer out in the middle of nowhere. He helped me finish dressing the deer and confirmed what my compass had been telling me. I got back to camp well after dark and arrived a celebrated hero by two boisterous old mad men. I hunted small game and deer with those two through my teens. It was a hoot.
The phuggin PGC says we need Sunday day hunting cause kids are too busy to hunt on Saturdays but open rifle season on a Saturday WILL attract more kids to hunting....WTF ?? This is typical of the sense the PGC uses to run hunting in Pa. They should stick to worrying about brown bats with white nose syndrome that is all they are good at.phuggin azzholes!
The problem with low hunter turn out for rifle is not going to change with a Saturday opener, why? 'cause of all the "opening days" the PGC gave hunters. And the hunters ate it up, they have an archery opener, a early mz opener, a youth /and Sr opener, a buck opener and a buck and doe opener, a post Christmas flintlock opener for Christ sake why all these seasons? When there were numbers of deer if you hunted YOU MADE TIME TO GO HUNTING! Camps were full, kids came along before they were old enough to hunt hell you could not get a motel run from one buck season to the next in parts of the state there were waiting lists to get into hunting camps,etc.etc...what happened what is missing ??? DEER NUMBERS SUCK KIDS WILL NOT KEEP AT BECAUSE THEIR PARENTS GAVE IT UP. SINGLE PARENT FAMILY KIDS DO NOT GET INTRODUCED TO IT...that is what is killing hunting in Pa and no Saturday opening of rifle season is going to change that.
At least I will be able to hunt with my sons again. They always have to work on that Monday. The number of guys that want off for that day and can't get it is ridiculous. Our deer camp will explode if this actually gets passed in April.
Doesn't anyone get vacation pay in PA?
At a workplace full of guys, there are always several that want the Monday after Thanksgiving off.
I have hunted PA all my life. Hunting is different now for a lot of reasons. I guess people are not the same as the WW2 breed, and a ton less deer. This is a world of instant gratification, and patience is the key in hunting. I doubt I see 25% of the people in camps and hunting as compared to 20 years ago. Again that is a culture problem and I also think the change in regulations. I also see ticks and coyotes like never before. The have to eat too, and they do. I am fully opposed to any rule changes. Anyway that is my view. I am in the woods more than 99% and that won't change. I do feel sorry that hunting is vanishing for the average family. Saturday and Sunday before buck is camp time and bonding time, very important days to keep tradition alive. Saturday hunt is very bad in the long term. Progressive regulation changes have not helped PA hunting in any way. Hunting is on a negative slope and killing tradition just makes it worse.
So bonding can only come from legislation or lack there of. Interesting stuff this thread has been
Camps need time to do things like clean up, eat big meals, play cards, and not feel rushed to hunt. 2 days of camp prep before the hunt, that is the definition of tradition. No tradition time, no tradition, less driving force to come back in November the next year. Not difficult to picture.
At least I will be able to hunt with my sons again. They always have to work on that Monday. The number of guys that want off for that day and can't get it is ridiculous. Our deer camp will explode if this actually gets passed in April.
Doesn't anyone get vacation pay in PA?
There's labor unions in Pa. that have the first day of deer season as an excused or even paid day off.
So bonding can only come from legislation or lack there of. Interesting stuff this thread has been
Camps need time to do things like clean up, eat big meals, play cards, and not feel rushed to hunt. 2 days of camp prep before the hunt, that is the definition of tradition. No tradition time, no tradition, less driving force to come back in November the next year. Not difficult to picture.
I bet the majority of folks don't hunt out of a camp.
So bonding can only come from legislation or lack there of. Interesting stuff this thread has been
Welcome to the PA hunting scene. All change is resisted. The Board of Commissioners just scrapped semi auto inclusion yesterday due to the backlash from the Fudds here.
So bonding can only come from legislation or lack there of. Interesting stuff this thread has been
Camps need time to do things like clean up, eat big meals, play cards, and not feel rushed to hunt. 2 days of camp prep before the hunt, that is the definition of tradition. No tradition time, no tradition, less driving force to come back in November the next year. Not difficult to picture.
I bet the majority of folks don't hunt out of a camp.
You're right and it's not even close. But the hunting camp crowd is a noisy lot.
So bonding can only come from legislation or lack there of. Interesting stuff this thread has been
Camps need time to do things like clean up, eat big meals, play cards, and not feel rushed to hunt. 2 days of camp prep before the hunt, that is the definition of tradition. No tradition time, no tradition, less driving force to come back in November the next year. Not difficult to picture.
I bet the majority of folks don't hunt out of a camp.
I own a camp and property in Potter county, once billed the deer hunting capital of the east, I own it since 1955. IMO the lamest excuse against a Saturday opener is "camp tradition". Sport hunting is about game management an the PGC is doing a pizz poor job of that. For the record it was 1963 when the opener was changed to the Monday after TG. Instead of all these different deer seasons maybe they should open deer season in October and close it in mid December an let you use any legal weapon. Still can not kill more than 1 buck and doe per doe tag (s). Want good deer numbers again then demand a cut in anterless tags....nothing will change until that changes. Bring back numbers and hunters will accept any date as the "new tradition".
The PGC can't give us an extra day to hunt, they can't give us Sunday hunting, they can't give us semi auto rifles. Why? Because of tradition. It wasn't done that way in 1975 around here so it can never change. The hunters here will not allow progress.
It’s the anti-hunting and anti-gun lobbies. It’s not the hunters.
They’re a patient lot, happy to slowly peel away what’s sacred.
You’ve got your enemies and priorities all mixed up. That’s their goal.
I’m not going to read this whole thing but LOL. It is too the hunters. PA hunters on different hunting forums are dead set against semi-autos for hunting and wail about no hunting on Sundays because of god and family. We are our own worst enemy.
Hunting numbers are down,well, here’s a couple reasons why.
ETA: There it is above me. They scrapped semi-autos because of the Fudds. Muh traditions.
So bonding can only come from legislation or lack there of. Interesting stuff this thread has been
Camps need time to do things like clean up, eat big meals, play cards, and not feel rushed to hunt. 2 days of camp prep before the hunt, that is the definition of tradition. No tradition time, no tradition, less driving force to come back in November the next year. Not difficult to picture.
Seems if tradition is so fugging important, people would make it work. Just because a season opens on Saturday, instead of Monday, doesn't mean you can't do it just like you've been doing it.
My God, you people really do need government in your life. As mentioned elsewhere, looks like a bunch of fudds up there.
As a PA resident landowner and a member of a camp I see a lot of sides to this.
More opportunities for those that are not retired, dont have vacation or the college kids who cant get the Monday after Thanksgiving off from class. (My daughter said most of her professors are antihunting so she wouldnt be able to make up any missed labs or work).
Saturday opener would be better with Sunday hunting permitted. Either way as a manufacturing supervisor with 50 guys to work with Saturday opener would be a blessing!!!
Dropping the semi auto discussion was a huge loss for 2nd amendment rights. The old arguement "you cant use them for deer hunting would be gone".
I agree change is hard not always easy but we have to evolve and adapt. You dont want your camp tradition messed with. Dont friggin hunt Saturday. Stay at camp and do what you want. Dont want to hunt on Sunday THEN DONT...But for the sake of freedom dont tell me what I cant do on my own land on Sunday.
Dont like semi autos. Dont hunt with one..
I'm not really in favor of the early bear muzzleloader but the world doesnt end where "my archery season" begins. I will still hunt and kill deer regardless.
As a PA resident landowner and a member of a camp I see a lot of sides to this.
More opportunities for those that are not retired, dont have vacation or the college kids who cant get the Monday after Thanksgiving off from class. (My daughter said most of her professors are antihunting so she wouldnt be able to make up any missed labs or work).
Saturday opener would be better with Sunday hunting permitted. Either way as a manufacturing supervisor with 50 guys to work with Saturday opener would be a blessing!!!
Dropping the semi auto discussion was a huge loss for 2nd amendment rights. The old arguement "you cant use them for deer hunting would be gone".
I agree change is hard not always easy but we have to evolve and adapt. You dont want your camp tradition messed with. Dont friggin hunt Saturday. Stay at camp and do what you want. Dont want to hunt on Sunday THEN DONT...But for the sake of freedom dont tell me what I cant do on my own land on Sunday.
Dont like semi autos. Dont hunt with one..
I'm not really in favor of the early bear muzzleloader but the world doesnt end where "my archery season" begins. I will still hunt and kill deer regardless.
After 56 PA deer seasons my better days are behind me. Recall in the 60’s and 70’s when one deer of either sex was it for the season. One could count 200 shots by 9am on opening day and strings of 15-20 doe (hopefully followed by a buck) were the order of the day. Still get out almost every day hoping to cross paths with a slammer, but my priorities have changed. These days go because it’s what I’ve always done, get the exercise and enjoy the woods. Killing a deer is near the bottom of the list (actually feel sorry for the deer). Visit one of the PA forums regularly and it’s humorous to read about some people complaining that there are no deer in the woods and others bragging about shooting a second or third doe ‘for the freezer’.
For what it’s worth, my votes on the issues:
Change opening day, nay
Semi-autos, yay (not really a major issue to me though)
Fugum not enough Game Wardens to go around hunt whenever you want to and use whatever you want to kill them. So few hunters in the woods after noon opening day it does not matter anyway.
So bonding can only come from legislation or lack there of. Interesting stuff this thread has been
Camps need time to do things like clean up, eat big meals, play cards, and not feel rushed to hunt. 2 days of camp prep before the hunt, that is the definition of tradition. No tradition time, no tradition, less driving force to come back in November the next year. Not difficult to picture.
Seems if tradition is so fugging important, people would make it work. Just because a season opens on Saturday, instead of Monday, doesn't mean you can't do it just like you've been doing it.
My God, you people really do need government in your life. As mentioned elsewhere, looks like a bunch of fudds up there.
You're absolutely right. Just listen to Kingston and the others whine like babies because they're trying to give us an extra day of rifle season and it's a Saturday no less!
And Kingston hasn't been sharp enough to realize that nobody needs to be disadvantaged by a Saturday opener because participation will not be mandatory. All the guys who want their first day to be Monday will still be allowed to stay on that schedule. Should be a win-win but here in PA that is never the case.
[quote=moosemike]And Kingston hasn't been sharp enough to realize that nobody needs to be disadvantaged by a Saturday opener because participation will not be mandatory. All the guys who want their first day to be Monday will still be allowed to stay on that schedule. Should be a win-win but here in PA that is never the case. [/quote
Hunters have a legit gripe about deer numbers being down so giving them another day a Saturday none the less to be hunted is going to help bring them back? Maybe the archery season should be cut back to 4 weeks again.
I still say the Commissioners are on somebody's payroll! FUGUM get rid of them we did not have this issue prior to them becoming political appointees via the g Govenor. Either have them voted in or combine the bankrupt F&BC with the PGC to one agency, do away with high end funded pension and benefit packages for both agencies put the money into fish & game habitat.
[quote=moosemike]And Kingston hasn't been sharp enough to realize that nobody needs to be disadvantaged by a Saturday opener because participation will not be mandatory. All the guys who want their first day to be Monday will still be allowed to stay on that schedule. Should be a win-win but here in PA that is never the case. [/quote
Hunters have a legit gripe about deer numbers being down so giving them another day a Saturday none the less to be hunted is going to help bring them back? Maybe the archery season should be cut back to 4 weeks again.
Some hunters do. There's plenty of places in this state where there's a surplus of deer. Trouble is guys want to hunt where the habitat was decimated by too many years of too many deer and not all of those places have regenerated into a deer friendly ecosystem. But guys hunt there because they killed a lot of deer there in the 80's and 90's and it's close to Camp. Traditions are often a prison.
[quote=moosemike]And Kingston hasn't been sharp enough to realize that nobody needs to be disadvantaged by a Saturday opener because participation will not be mandatory. All the guys who want their first day to be Monday will still be allowed to stay on that schedule. Should be a win-win but here in PA that is never the case. [/quote
Hunters have a legit gripe about deer numbers being down so giving them another day a Saturday none the less to be hunted is going to help bring them back? Maybe the archery season should be cut back to 4 weeks again.
Some hunters do. There's plenty of places in this state where there's a surplus of deer. Trouble is guys want to hunt where the habitat was decimated by too many years of too many deer and not all of those places have regenerated into a deer friendly ecosystem. But guys hunt there because they killed a lot of deer there in the 80's and 90's and it's close to Camp. Traditions are often a prison.
Guys hunt where they have permission to hunt you can not kill Bucks county deer if you can not get a place to hunt in Bucks county.
[quote=moosemike]And Kingston hasn't been sharp enough to realize that nobody needs to be disadvantaged by a Saturday opener because participation will not be mandatory. All the guys who want their first day to be Monday will still be allowed to stay on that schedule. Should be a win-win but here in PA that is never the case. [/quote
Hunters have a legit gripe about deer numbers being down so giving them another day a Saturday none the less to be hunted is going to help bring them back? Maybe the archery season should be cut back to 4 weeks again.
Some hunters do. There's plenty of places in this state where there's a surplus of deer. Trouble is guys want to hunt where the habitat was decimated by too many years of too many deer and not all of those places have regenerated into a deer friendly ecosystem. But guys hunt there because they killed a lot of deer there in the 80's and 90's and it's close to Camp. Traditions are often a prison.
Guys hunt where they have permission to hunt you can not kill Bucks county deer if you can not get a place to hunt in Bucks county.
I'd not be surprised to learn you are from Bucks/Montgomery County.
At least I will be able to hunt with my sons again. They always have to work on that Monday. The number of guys that want off for that day and can't get it is ridiculous. Our deer camp will explode if this actually gets passed in April.
Doesn't anyone get vacation pay in PA?
At a workplace full of guys, there are always several that want the Monday after Thanksgiving off.
Valid point. Don’t work with a lot of hunters so I didn’t think of that.
The only reason I'm for no change is I hunt the first two weekends of NY's rifle season, then come home Sunday night to night here . So I'd actually loose a day.
Really to me it makes more sense to allow Sunday hunting rather than fight over which day the season starts.
I really don't think it's going to happen. Semi Auto inclusion was supposed to be a done deal and that's already been shelved. I don't think they're gonna risk pissing off a majority of hunters by passing this.
that nobody needs to be disadvantaged by a Saturday opener because participation will not be mandatory. All the guys who want their first day to be Monday will still be allowed to stay on that schedule.
Opening day has so much more activity and a higher success rate than other days, a person would drastically reduce their chance of success by not hunting on the opening day. When you say 'all the guys who want their first day to be Monday', you're being disingenuous. It might be that person's 'first day' but it would be the season's SECOND day. With far fewer hunters in the woods, less deer in the woods, and a lower success rate.
I just don't see a huge pool of folks out there saying 'Gee I would take up this great sport of hunting if I was able to shoot deer on the Saturday after Thanksgiving'. IMO, this proposed change has way too much downside and not enough potential upside.
Change for the sake of change is useless. With all these people spouting about more opportunity, why not start it Thanksgiving Day? It is a holiday so most working people are off, kids are out of school, everyone can be out in the woods. If the working folks take a vacation day on Friday they get to hunt the first 3 days of rifle. Don't get me wrong, I am not totally resistant to change but Dale K is right, people are not sitting at home saying "If they only started rifle season on the Saturday after Thanksgiving I would start hunting." A Monday opener affects some while a Saturday opener affect others and not everyone can be pleased all the time. If you really want to hunt you have to make the best of the time you have. Rant Over!
If it would pass and that is a huge if more hunters = more deer kill . We are told by the PGC herd is where they want in in most wmu. So read between the lines . #1 like the majority of other states that have a Sat. opener buck tags will eventually go to a lottery. #2 No lottery then a reduction of days somewhere else to sustain the current deer population. Hunters are easy to dupe the PGC knows that from past experience. Bear in mind 85% of the board are democrats appointed by a sitting democrat.
If it would pass and that is a huge if more hunters = more deer kill . We are told by the PGC herd is where they want in in most wmu. So read between the lines . #1 like the majority of other states that have a Sat. opener buck tags will eventually go to a lottery. #2 No lottery then a reduction of days somewhere else to sustain the current deer population. Hunters are easy to dupe the PGC knows that from past experience. Bear in mind 85% of the board are democrats appointed by a sitting democrat.
That's really unrealistic. We're losing hunters at an alarming rate and soon will have trouble killing enough deer. The PGC estimated 550,000 hunters were afield for opening day of Rifle this past year. That is half what it was when I started hunting.
If it would pass and that is a huge if more hunters = more deer kill . We are told by the PGC herd is where they want in in most wmu. So read between the lines . #1 like the majority of other states that have a Sat. opener buck tags will eventually go to a lottery. #2 No lottery then a reduction of days somewhere else to sustain the current deer population. Hunters are easy to dupe the PGC knows that from past experience. Bear in mind 85% of the board are democrats appointed by a sitting democrat.
Where is my tinfoil hat when I need it! Damn it!
The real problem in this state, is that you have so many backwards a$$ people resistant to change. The PGC should just do it like they did with crossbows and tell all the people so resistant to change to just deal with it.
Even a backward a$$ knows deer are managed by science for the health of the herd NOT FOR HUNTERS WE MERELY ARE THE MANAGEMENT TOOL. The kill is going to go up with a Saturday opener without doubt...remember the reason for the opening date change is to get MORE HUNTERS IN THE WOODS more hunters=more kills! More kills leads to shorter seasons.DUH HOW BUTT AZZ STUPID DO YOU NEED TO NOT UNDERSTAND THAT????????????????????
Even a backward a$$ knows deer are managed by science for the health of the herd NOT FOR HUNTERS WE MERELY ARE THE MANAGEMENT TOOL. The kill is going to go up with a Saturday opener without doubt...remember the reason for the opening date change is to get MORE HUNTERS IN THE WOODS more hunters=more kills! More kills leads to shorter seasons.DUH HOW BUTT AZZ STUPID DO YOU NEED TO NOT UNDERSTAND THAT????????????????????
Go back and read moosemikes last post he is correct. The PGC deer harvest estimates are based on much higher license sales. The science doesn't work if you are that far off. Most arguments for the Saturday opener and semi's not to mention Sunday hunting are based on emotion by the backwards hunters of this state and not science.
Look at all the other states that do it with no issues.
I started hunting in PA in 1947, which made last season my 72 nd. In 1947 and into the early 50s there were "antler restrictions", requiring at least one antler to have a fork or put another way a Y on at least one side regardless of antler length. It was later changed to the 3" spike length to pacify hunters. It took at least 8/9 hours assuming good weather/roads to drive the roughly 250 miles from where I lived in lower bucks co. to Cameron co. That because it was all 2 lane roads that took you right thru every town along the way. But the roads were also cluttered with cars containing other hunters, and when you arrived in places like Sinnemahoning, it was booming with hunters. GET THIS, last fall on opening morning of buck season, there was just one lone hunter having breakfast in the dining room at the Slate Run Hotel, and that was a good friend of mine. Fact is that today, many of the nice old camps don't even open for deer season at all. Also today that same trip I mentioned can take less than 5 hours, and yet very few go. There are far more bear and nicer bucks than ever, not to even mention the abundant turkey population, but fewer hunters hunting them. There has never in my long lifetime been a better time for getting a trophy buck than there is today. The only thing lacking is the type hunters it requires to take one. Does it sound as though im touting on the good old days here? Driving to camp on Friday after work, and driving back home on Sunday afternoon with a deer, especially a buck, really never would work well regardless of which days we might be permitted to hunt, or what day the season opens, or what type rifle you can shoot it with. What will you be wanting next sonny, home delivery?
As for the PGC, im not a fan of government in any form, but even a semi independently run game department is far better than one controlled by the legislature and a governor completely. There is nothing the DCNR would like better than to be in "complete" control the game commission, same as they are over "our" public land.
And there that is! Really all I can do at this point is laugh. I often drive 2 hours to my hunting spot and then 2 hours home at the end of the day.
You are correct about the laughing, As for the driving, life has always been about choices. Which is a large part of this discussion.
Even a backward a$$ knows deer are managed by science for the health of the herd NOT FOR HUNTERS WE MERELY ARE THE MANAGEMENT TOOL. The kill is going to go up with a Saturday opener without doubt...remember the reason for the opening date change is to get MORE HUNTERS IN THE WOODS more hunters=more kills! More kills leads to shorter seasons.DUH HOW BUTT AZZ STUPID DO YOU NEED TO NOT UNDERSTAND THAT????????????????????
They changed our season opener from Monday to Saturday several years ago right next door to you in New York and our season hasn't been shortened, in fact it's longer by two days. They also let us hunt on Sundays with a semi automatic and still we have deer and our seasons haven't been shortened.
I own a camp and property in Potter county, once billed the deer hunting capital of the east, I own it since 1955. IMO the lamest excuse against a Saturday opener is "camp tradition". Sport hunting is about game management an the PGC is doing a pizz poor job of that. For the record it was 1963 when the opener was changed to the Monday after TG. Instead of all these different deer seasons maybe they should open deer season in October and close it in mid December an let you use any legal weapon. Still can not kill more than 1 buck and doe per doe tag (s). Want good deer numbers again then demand a cut in anterless tags....nothing will change until that changes. Bring back numbers and hunters will accept any date as the "new tradition".
If you check, you will find the opening day was on a Monday long before that. Although I cant say for sure it was the one following thanksgiving. It might well have been the one closest to Dec. first. As for the "hunters", there will be a long line waiting in the rain to buy the last tag for the last one. Because if they don't, then as the saying always goes "somebody else will". And that is the story of Potter Co and other areas as well, somebody else did.
...The PGC deer harvest estimates are based on much higher license sales. The science doesn't work if you are that far off. Most arguments for the Saturday opener and semi's not to mention Sunday hunting are based on emotion by the backwards hunters of this state and not science.
Look at all the other states that do it with no issues.
The argument you’re making is your own and is an interesting one.
Although not new, increasingly, the sentiment among PA deer hunters has been there are fewer and fewer deer. The post you cited from 1bigdude and his response, copied immediately below outlines an example of this.
Originally Posted by 1bigdude
I am retired matters little to me what day it opens. Matter of fact I have my properties posted so every day is opening day.
1bigdude’s presents a position underpinned by the notion of resource scarcity. His solution is posted private land. I’m not arguing for or against posting, I’m merely looking at trends.
Ken, if I read you correctly, your argument is about having the right data. Toward that end, I’ve never seen fewer hunters during rifle season than I saw this past year and I hunted nine days of it. I’ve also never seen success rates as low as they’ve been the last five years.
As a point of disclosure, my first hand experience is limited to a single WMU, but I talk to hunters from all over the Commonwealth. As would be imagined, experiences vary widely from place to place and year to year. Pennsylvania is a huge state and thus host to myriad combinations of habitat, climate, agricultural and forestry activity, development activity and economics. There are lots of pieces in play.
Changing policies with statewide impact is to move the biggest and most precious pieces on the board. In an atmosphere boiling with eroding confidence in the science informing game management strategies, a diminished faith in the politics of the Commission’s administration, and a persistent wariness over resource scarcity—moving the big pieces should be done with caution.
Most profoundly, we’re living through a transformation unrivaled by anything but possibly the second industrial revolution. We’re living during the richest era in human history. Information technology and a massive human population deliver staggering economies of scale.
The same technology pumping out wealth and efficiency has accelerated communication to a barrage. All that fast talking becomes an endless stream of feedback spawning a science of influence beyond the imagination of any science fiction. Traditions and customs shaping our identities are what’s at stake.
They changed our season opener from Monday to Saturday several years ago right next door to you in New York and our season hasn't been shortened, in fact it's longer by two days. They also let us hunt on Sundays with a semi automatic and still we have deer and our seasons haven't been shortened.
Looking to NYS for legislative models informing policy affecting hunting, gun ownership, and our outdoor traditions is a hard sell.
Change has been coming ever since I started hunting in 1948. I watched as the PGC was defended by blows if another even suggested they were not the stellar game org of the time, to what they have become today IMO a bunch of inept boobs whom can not manage a good crap let alone Pa's wildlife.
They changed our season opener from Monday to Saturday several years ago right next door to you in New York and our season hasn't been shortened, in fact it's longer by two days. They also let us hunt on Sundays with a semi automatic and still we have deer and our seasons haven't been shortened.
Looking to NYS for legislative models informing policy affecting hunting, gun ownership, and our outdoor traditions is a hard sell.
Our hunting/ game laws are pretty good campared to Pa. and many other states. Semi auto's legal for deer hunting, Saturday opener, centerfire rifles legal for predator hunting at night, no blaze orange requirement. You sure ain't got nuthin to brag about as far as your game laws are concerned.
Nobody needs an 11 round magazine for deer hunting. And you still can't use a semi auto for deer hunting at all. Yes, NY has some seriously fugged up gun laws. There's no doubt about that but Pa. has some weird ass laws too. Enough of them that we are no longer considering Pa. as a possibility for our escape from NY retirement move.
You wanna see a mess look at Pa. orange clothing laws....even the PGC do not know WTF is going on but every year hunters get pinched for not obeying them.
You wanna see a mess look at Pa. orange clothing laws....even the PGC do not know WTF is going on but every year hunters get pinched for not obeying them.
phugging Game Warden tried to pinch me for not enough orange on in the early MZ season while I was raking leaves on a trail into my deer stand! #1 he was trespassing with no probable cause. #2 I had no weapon of any sort but my Glock 9mm daily carry with my PTC in my pocket. #3 I threw him off my property!!!
Nobody needs an 11 round magazine for deer hunting. And you still can't use a semi auto for deer hunting at all. Yes, NY has some seriously fugged up gun laws. There's no doubt about that but Pa. has some weird ass laws too. Enough of them that we are no longer considering Pa. as a possibility for our escape from NY retirement move.
If it helps I can relay what has happened in Virginia. We used to have a Monday start to the deer season. It was eventually changed to a Saturday opener. Years later we eventually got hunting on Sundays on private land. I am not sure if that is where PA is headed, but that is what has happened in Virginia. BTW, the number of hunters is down here in Virginia too. Unfortunately, it is a dying sport.
Pennsylvania: Senate Committee to Consider Sunday Hunting Ban Repeal
Tomorrow, the Senate Game and Fisheries Committee is scheduled to consider pro-hunting legislation, Senate Bill 147. Senate Bill 147, sponsored by Senator Daniel Laughlin, would expand hunting opportunities for Pennsylvania hunters by eliminating the prohibition against hunting on Sundays. Prohibitions on Sunday hunting are old blue laws left on the books in just a few states. They deny hunters access one day per week despite the fact that each year, hunters pump millions of dollars into habitat restoration and conservation through Pittman-Robertson funds. Many hunters are prevented from introducing their children or friends to hunting because they are competing against organized sports and other activities on Saturday, which is currently their only opportunity to hunt outside of the work or school week. Countless hunters stop hunting because of the lack of opportunity, both in time and accessible land. The addition of an extra day in the field, especially on the weekend, increases the opportunity to enjoy our hunting heritage. Allowing hunting on Sundays will invigorate essential hunter recruitment and retention efforts. Your NRA-ILA will continue to keep you updated on this important pro-hunting legislation as it progresses in the legislature.
Nobody needs an 11 round magazine for deer hunting. And you still can't use a semi auto for deer hunting at all. Yes, NY has some seriously fugged up gun laws. There's no doubt about that but Pa. has some weird ass laws too. Enough of them that we are no longer considering Pa. as a possibility for our escape from NY retirement move.
Pennsylvania: Senate Committee to Consider Sunday Hunting Ban Repeal
Tomorrow, the Senate Game and Fisheries Committee is scheduled to consider pro-hunting legislation, Senate Bill 147. Senate Bill 147, sponsored by Senator Daniel Laughlin, would expand hunting opportunities for Pennsylvania hunters by eliminating the prohibition against hunting on Sundays. Prohibitions on Sunday hunting are old blue laws left on the books in just a few states. They deny hunters access one day per week despite the fact that each year, hunters pump millions of dollars into habitat restoration and conservation through Pittman-Robertson funds. Many hunters are prevented from introducing their children or friends to hunting because they are competing against organized sports and other activities on Saturday, which is currently their only opportunity to hunt outside of the work or school week. Countless hunters stop hunting because of the lack of opportunity, both in time and accessible land. The addition of an extra day in the field, especially on the weekend, increases the opportunity to enjoy our hunting heritage. Allowing hunting on Sundays will invigorate essential hunter recruitment and retention efforts. Your NRA-ILA will continue to keep you updated on this important pro-hunting legislation as it progresses in the legislature.
FOLLOW NRA-ILA
Passed Senate committee 8-3 onto senate and house then Wolfe
You wanna see a mess look at Pa. orange clothing laws....even the PGC do not know WTF is going on but every year hunters get pinched for not obeying them.
Don't even get me started about that.
I don't see any issues with the orange clothing laws. It only takes about 30 seconds to read what you need to be wearing.
You wanna see a mess look at Pa. orange clothing laws....even the PGC do not know WTF is going on but every year hunters get pinched for not obeying them.
Don't even get me started about that.
I don't see any issues with the orange clothing laws. It only takes about 30 seconds to read what you need to be wearing.
I understand what you are saying but they shouldn't be so confusing that I have to read them every time I go hunting either. I am in the woods a lot and can't keep them straight.
You wanna see a mess look at Pa. orange clothing laws....even the PGC do not know WTF is going on but every year hunters get pinched for not obeying them.
Don't even get me started about that.
I don't see any issues with the orange clothing laws. It only takes about 30 seconds to read what you need to be wearing.
I understand what you are saying but they shouldn't be so confusing that I have to read them every time I go hunting either. I am in the woods a lot and can't keep them straight.
Same here, but this is a minor inconvenience considering the big picture. Or PA could be like NY and not require any orange. I almost prefer as much orange as possible when rifle hunting. Mostly for someone to see me from as far as possible and stay away.
I used to hate the orange laws. Then I started flintlock hunting with a group that didn't wear it. One day, I got a lesson about visibilty. I heard something coming, I got ready, kept the muzzle down, the guy was never in any danger. But, I couldn't see him, until he stepped out of the brush, fairly close. What scared me was the what if. What if, when he was 20 or 30 yards back, a deer had come out in between us? I would have shot. I always wore an orange hat after that.
Wearing orange is not an issue for me here in PA (one would be foolish not to wear it) and almost all of the hunters that I see when hunting in Chenango County, NY wear at least a little....
Wearing orange is not an issue for me here in PA (one would be foolish not to wear it) and almost all of the hunters that I see when hunting in Chenango County, NY wear at least a little....
The point is that blaze orange is not required in NY. It's up to you whether you wear it or not and with no minimum required amount you won't get hassled or ticketed for not wearing enough of it. Choice is good.
Wearing orange is not an issue for me here in PA (one would be foolish not to wear it) and almost all of the hunters that I see when hunting in Chenango County, NY wear at least a little....
The point is that blaze orange is not required in NY. It's up to you whether you wear it or not and with no minimum required amount you won't get hassled or ticketed for not wearing enough of it. Choice is good.
Point well taken, every law that is passed takes away a little freedom that one is unlikely to ever get back.
In the days before it was required, one of my friends shot and killed one of my other friends in a deer drive on a rainy day. A deer ran into brush and my friend stepped out the other side, wearing brown canvas. Thankfully I was not present. But i have remained friends with the shooter. We've been freinds since grade school and we are both in our seventies. It still haunts him.
A number of years later, my father in law shot my father in a line of fire accident while we were small game hunting. A woodcock flew between them. My Dad had gotten a little ahead of our line, so wasnt where he was supposed to be, but in heavy cover that happens. I had to carry my Dad a half mile to get to the car and drive nearly 30 minutes to get to the hospital. He survived, but was in intensive care over a week.
Both incidents would have been prevented with blaze orange. Those incidents occurred in PA.
My friend Lynn died at 15 years old. Not a very long life. A lot to give up. The rules are not that complicated.
In the days before it was required, one of my friends shot and killed one of my other friends in a deer drive on a rainy day. A deer ran into brush and my friend stepped out the other side, wearing brown canvas. Thankfully I was not present. But i have remained friends with the shooter. We've been freinds since grade school and we are both in our seventies. It still haunts him.
A number of years later, my father in law shot my father in a line of fire accident while we were small game hunting. A woodcock flew between them. My Dad had gotten a little ahead of our line, so wasnt where he was supposed to be, but in heavy cover that happens. I had to carry my Dad a half mile to get to the car and drive nearly 30 minutes to get to the hospital. He survived, but was in intensive care over a week.
Both incidents would have been prevented with blaze orange. Those incidents occurred in PA.
My friend Lynn died at 15 years old. Not a very long life. A lot to give up. The rules are not that complicated.
Bfly
So, in short, the people in your examples weren't bright enough to wear it on their own? Not to be harsh, but that's it in a nutshell.
What you're saying is we need more laws to protect people from themselves? I'm sorry people aren't smart enough to figure sheit out, but you can't legislate stupid.
No, you are not correct. None of the participants were stupid and shame on you for suggesting that. There was no blaze orange at that time. Those are the kinds of accidents that happened before blaze orange was available. I would hope that you are lucky enough never to be involved in an accident, but they happen even to careful, thoughtful people. I've been sneaked up on in spring turkey season, so I use a tree band or blaze hat, even when not required, because not every person is always focused on safety. Bfly
Got 2 farms in the family, both in Bradford county. Hunted many season there in the 70's thru the 90's. As we always did some "drives", wearing orange was simply practical. Most of those years, buck and doe seasons were separate, which added another small element of safety. As I seriously believe that orange makes not difference to deer, I have always worn it, living in NY. I see 1 or more clowns hunting in full camo every year. Don't hunt PA any more due to NY's long season, and generous allottment of tags. Some years ago, I was hunting grouse behind my dogs. We came into an ancient apple grove and the dogs went on point. Not until birds flushed, and we started shooting, did an archery hunter, in full camo, in a tree stand, make his presence known. Scared the bejesus out of all of us. Made a serious impression. People that insist they must be in full camo are just foolish, particularly when on public land.
In the days before it was required, one of my friends shot and killed one of my other friends in a deer drive on a rainy day. A deer ran into brush and my friend stepped out the other side, wearing brown canvas. Thankfully I was not present. But i have remained friends with the shooter. We've been freinds since grade school and we are both in our seventies. It still haunts him.
A number of years later, my father in law shot my father in a line of fire accident while we were small game hunting. A woodcock flew between them. My Dad had gotten a little ahead of our line, so wasnt where he was supposed to be, but in heavy cover that happens. I had to carry my Dad a half mile to get to the car and drive nearly 30 minutes to get to the hospital. He survived, but was in intensive care over a week.
Both incidents would have been prevented with blaze orange. Those incidents occurred in PA.
My friend Lynn died at 15 years old. Not a very long life. A lot to give up. The rules are not that complicated.
Bfly
Those were two blatant mistakes that I doubt blaze could have stopped. They were breaking rules of hunter safety that everyone should know. Orange or not.
I am retired matters little to me what day it opens. Matter of fact I have my properties posted so every day is opening day.
One of the big reasons hunter numbers are down. Especially with kids. But hey, you are on old retired fart who has his. Screw the future. Congratulations?
I am retired matters little to me what day it opens. Matter of fact I have my properties posted so every day is opening day.
One of the big reasons hunter numbers are down. Especially with kids. But hey, you are on old retired fart who has his. Screw the future. Congratulations?
MN has the same problem. I've been trying to work with the DNR to get a better, wider spread youth season. They really seem to have no interest. The biggest reason...Old farts. They are the ones putting up the stop signs saying we had to wait until we were 12 and we had to wait until November, so do they. A bunch of Bull [bleep] if you ask me.
As part of my job, i ended up doing a number of joint investigations on poaching rings with the officer who investigated both instances in my previous post. It was close to the end of his career. We spent a fair amount of time sitting, watching, talking and drinking coffee. He believed both accidents would have been avoided with the use of blaze orange. More than once, he would shake his head and say, 'That kid would be here today if we would have had orange back then!' We all make mistakes, we all get tired, we all get distracted, and we all get excited. We all need to be safe. Bfly
phugging Game Warden tried to pinch me for not enough orange on in the early MZ season while I was raking leaves on a trail into my deer stand! #1 he was trespassing with no probable cause. #2 I had no weapon of any sort but my Glock 9mm daily carry with my PTC in my pocket. #3 I threw him off my property!!!
He left because he was willing to do so at the time. A Pa Game Warden does not need probable cause to venture onto private property. All he has to say is he was looking for any possible game law violation. They also do not need a warrant to search a vehicle if they only think there is the possibility of a game law violation. However, if you push them they will most likely have you remain in place and have one signed off rather quickly. Right or wrong, that is the current law and it is not unique to only Pa.
Reason for entry is the only requirement. His reason was to verify a hunter was complying with legislated game laws.
HARRISBURG - Game wardens may enter posted land to investigate hunting violations, the state Supreme Court ruled in a case that arose during the first day of the 2002 bear-hunting season.Landowners do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy against enforcement of state game law, the court said in a 4-3 decision Tuesday. It endorsed the "open fields doctrine" that most other states have in place."The citizens of this commonwealth throughout our history have shown a keen interest in protecting and preserving as an asset the diverse wildlife that find refuge in the fields and forests within our borders," wrote Justice Ronald D. Castille for the majority. "This interest is so strong that it is enshrined by a separate provision of the Pennsylvania Constitution."The defendant, Joseph Russo Jr., was ordered to pay $3,600 in fines and restitution after game officers discovered he used an 80-square-foot pile of mashed apples to bait a bear near his hunting cabin in Mehoopany Township, Wyoming County.DNA evidence matched blood found at the apple mash pile -- along with bear tracks -- to a bear carcass seized from Russo's home in Pittston. He was found guilty of unlawful taking of game and using an illegal device to hunt.Russo appealed, arguing that the search of property posted with no-trespassing signs violated state constitutional protections against unreasonable search and seizure.
I am retired matters little to me what day it opens. Matter of fact I have my properties posted so every day is opening day.
One of the big reasons hunter numbers are down. Especially with kids. But hey, you are on old retired fart who has his. Screw the future. Congratulations?
Your jealousy is shining thru! FTR I do post but have never refused permission to hunt except on the first two days of any season. I post because of atvs, people building treestands, hunters driving on fields, leaving trash, etc. My biggest bitch is not asking permission. And you are correct I got mine and if you wish to use it play by my rules.
You didn’t mention the qualifiers in your original post. Nor should you flatter yourself in thinking I would be jealous of anything you have, or think it necessary for me to play by any rules you may make. 😀
phugging Game Warden tried to pinch me for not enough orange on in the early MZ season while I was raking leaves on a trail into my deer stand! #1 he was trespassing with no probable cause. #2 I had no weapon of any sort but my Glock 9mm daily carry with my PTC in my pocket. #3 I threw him off my property!!!
He left because he was willing to do so at the time. A Pa Game Warden does not need probable cause to venture onto private property. All he has to say is he was looking for any possible game law violation. They also do not need a warrant to search a vehicle if they only think there is the possibility of a game law violation. However, if you push them they will most likely have you remain in place and have one signed off rather quickly. Right or wrong, that is the current law and it is not unique to only Pa.
Reason for entry is the only requirement. His reason was to verify a hunter was complying with legislated game laws.
HARRISBURG - Game wardens may enter posted land to investigate hunting violations, the state Supreme Court ruled in a case that arose during the first day of the 2002 bear-hunting season.Landowners do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy against enforcement of state game law, the court said in a 4-3 decision Tuesday. It endorsed the "open fields doctrine" that most other states have in place."The citizens of this commonwealth throughout our history have shown a keen interest in protecting and preserving as an asset the diverse wildlife that find refuge in the fields and forests within our borders," wrote Justice Ronald D. Castille for the majority. "This interest is so strong that it is enshrined by a separate provision of the Pennsylvania Constitution."The defendant, Joseph Russo Jr., was ordered to pay $3,600 in fines and restitution after game officers discovered he used an 80-square-foot pile of mashed apples to bait a bear near his hunting cabin in Mehoopany Township, Wyoming County.DNA evidence matched blood found at the apple mash pile -- along with bear tracks -- to a bear carcass seized from Russo's home in Pittston. He was found guilty of unlawful taking of game and using an illegal device to hunt.Russo appealed, arguing that the search of property posted with no-trespassing signs violated state constitutional protections against unreasonable search and seizure.
He left because I reminded him how I allow public hunting on my private land an could easily not do so. I can only assume he realised harassing me for using a leaf blower and rake to clear a path thru the woods would look pretty silly to the magistrate. My big bitch was his thinking he could drive on my tractor path next to my corn field 500 yards to where I was. That SOB was in the habit of driving my 2 track on my property to look for law breakers at any time of day or night. I do not ask permission from him or you for what I do on my property. One do I give a chit what either of you think. IMO a game warden is a low life and a Democrat Game Warden is the lowest form of life.
You didn’t mention the qualifiers in your original post. Nor should you flatter yourself in thinking I would be jealous of anything you have, or think it necessary for me to play by any rules you may make. 😀
Since when would I need to justify myself to an online troll?
I am retired matters little to me what day it opens. Matter of fact I have my properties posted so every day is opening day.
One of the big reasons hunter numbers are down. Especially with kids. But hey, you are on old retired fart who has his. Screw the future. Congratulations?
I just read a quote from Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez pertaining to wealth redistribution. It too mentioned something about too many rich, old, white people and the younger generation not having enough.
Easy to understand. People raising children to believe that marginal effort will still receive awards and admiration.
I’m all in for positive behavioral training, but on a hunting dog, at least until it’s of the age to understand the difference between work and play.
Work meant real birds will be in their mouth...Play was a bumper... Kids, the same thing. Work means prosperity. Play means the pleasure of disposable income from your work...😎
You think she also meant access to Deer hunting, the same as he had when he was young and without land? Then again, it may have originally been long time family land he was born to. Maybe not. However, he said if they asked he was fine with it, so I see little of her implication that applies here.
Addition: How often do you think she thinks about Deer hunting and the equality/access of it? You can do better....
No I bought my farmS by working to pay them off. I never took one cent from the govt never got unemployment for even 1day. I was raised by hard working parents that taught values....something these kids should remember when they trespass on MY land.
No I bought my farmS by working to pay them off. I never took one cent from the govt never got unemployment for even 1day. I was raised by hard working parents that taught values....something these kids should remember when they trespass on MY land.
Good for you, something to be proud of.
Addition: However remember, while the land is yours, the Deer are ours. Unless you equate yourself to the King. Then I tend to side with the merry men.
Is this headed towards an archery thread, now? We’ve done deer, elk, social issues, land ownership and now Robin Hood. I’ve learned a lot so far...One thing for certain. You PA boys are passionate. Good on you! I hope your tradition stays as you want it. Happy Hunting 😎
Is this headed towards an archery thread, now? We’ve done deer, elk, social issues, land ownership and now Robin Hood. I’ve learned a lot so far...One thing for certain. You PA boys are passionate. Good on you! I hope your tradition stays as you want it. Happy Hunting 😎
You should have seen it when the boys were serious. If the internet was available back then this would have been childs play Those boys, bought and then publicly burned Anterless tags when they first started killing what they called sacred "Mother Doe." Neighbor when I was younger would sit in his basement and have hunting conversations with others across the country on his short wave transmitter.
No I bought my farmS by working to pay them off. I never took one cent from the govt never got unemployment for even 1day. I was raised by hard working parents that taught values....something these kids should remember when they trespass on MY land.
Good for you, something to be proud of.
Addition: However remember, while the land is yours, the Deer are ours. Unless you equate yourself to the King. Then I tend to side with the merry men.
You think she also meant access to Deer hunting, the same as he had when he was young and without land? Then again, it may have originally been long time family land he was born to. Maybe not. However, he said if they asked he was fine with it, so I see little of her implication that applies here.
Addition: How often do you think she thinks about Deer hunting and the equality/access of it? You can do better....
I should be able to come onto your land and pick apples, shoot whatever the fugg I want, fish anytime I want and hell, I ain't got a well, I'll hook into yours for water.
We need a world without borders, because everything you 'have' is mine too.
She may think that, but I don't. You can do what you are comfortable with, don't fret I got it, but the game and fish do belong to all of us who are here legally. You also got that, right? Not so on the apples and water.
You think otherwise re the game and fish and you would do will in Ye old England. Provided you were landed. Surprises me you would think it correct.... Kind of socialistic, hmmmm Make that elite socialistic....They are the worst....The I got mine type that is....Now the rest of you peons must give more type....The Clinton, Kennedy, Pelosi, types, etc, etc....
You think she also meant access to Deer hunting, the same as he had when he was young and without land? Then again, it may have originally been long time family land he was born to. Maybe not. However, he said if they asked he was fine with it, so I see little of her implication that applies here.
Addition: How often do you think she thinks about Deer hunting and the equality/access of it? You can do better....
I should be able to come onto your land and pick apples, shoot whatever the fugg I want, fish anytime I want and hell, I ain't got a well, I'll hook into yours for water.
We need a world without borders, because everything you 'have' is mine too.
Can't speak to your neck of the woods but in Pa, there are landowners who are fine with folks coming onto their and land picking apples in the abandoned orchard or shooting whatever (so long as it is in season). They are typically enrolled in one of the Game Commission Access programs. They are voluntarily sharing their ground with others. Not forced sharing like Ocasio-Cortez is pushing.
But there are fewer of those willing to share than there used to be. Mostly due to either someone abusing the land or a new landowner has the attitude "It's mine, all mine and I'm not sharing with anyone". In the 70's there wasn't a piece of posted ground within a mile of my house and virtually all the farms were in a access program. Now, posted signs are a dime a dozen and there are only 3 farms open to public hunting.
You think she also meant access to Deer hunting, the same as he had when he was young and without land? Then again, it may have originally been long time family land he was born to. Maybe not. However, he said if they asked he was fine with it, so I see little of her implication that applies here.
Addition: How often do you think she thinks about Deer hunting and the equality/access of it? You can do better....
I should be able to come onto your land and pick apples, shoot whatever the fugg I want, fish anytime I want and hell, I ain't got a well, I'll hook into yours for water.
We need a world without borders, because everything you 'have' is mine too.
Can't speak to your neck of the woods but in Pa, there are landowners who are fine with folks coming onto their and land picking apples in the abandoned orchard or shooting whatever (so long as it is in season). They are typically enrolled in one of the Game Commission Access programs. They are voluntarily sharing their ground with others. Not forced sharing like Ocasio-Cortez is pushing.
But there are fewer of those willing to share than there used to be. Mostly due to either someone abusing the land or a new landowner has the attitude "It's mine, all mine and I'm not sharing with anyone". In the 70's there wasn't a piece of posted ground within a mile of my house and virtually all the farms were in a access program. Now, posted signs are a dime a dozen and there are only 3 farms open to public hunting.
Dale
Careful Dale, you may get labeled thinking that way....
There was lots of unposted private ground in NY back in the 70's when I started hunting. Now precious damn little. Mostly because most of it is owned by hunters that want to raise and kill trophy bucks and hunters are generaly a selfish bunch. Thank god there's alot of State and NYC watershed land that is open to hunting. Course most of it ain't the best hunting and you can't put up permanent stands or blinds, ride four wheelers on it, nor leave portable stands/blinds out there and expect them to stay put but it's better than nothing.
No I bought my farmS by working to pay them off. I never took one cent from the govt never got unemployment for even 1day. I was raised by hard working parents that taught values....something these kids should remember when they trespass on MY land.
Good for you, something to be proud of.
Addition: However remember, while the land is yours, the Deer are ours. Unless you equate yourself to the King. Then I tend to side with the merry men.
Socialism at it's finest.
This warrants additional comment. You are so turned around you don't know who is on your side. And when that happens you become the enemy because you can't be trusted....
There was lots of unposted private ground in NY back in the 70's when I started hunting. Now precious damn little. Mostly because most of it is owned by hunters that want to raise and kill trophy bucks and hunters are generaly a selfish bunch. Thank god there's alot of State and NYC watershed land that is open to hunting. Course most of it ain't the best hunting and you can't put up permanent stands or blinds, ride four wheelers on it, nor leave portable stands/blinds out there and expect them to stay put but it's better than nothing.
Same here, little difference. With the exception that there are some Giants roaming our North Country. Deer are few, but they are there for those who can go and find them.
It funny how city people enjoy spending their money taking their kids to Disney world, yet whine about not being able to walk all over their neighbors land when ever they see fit.
It funny how city people enjoy spending their money taking their kids to Disney world, yet whine about not being able to walk all over their neighbors land when ever they see fit.
I'll pay to hunt great land, if there is enough of it to roam and not be stuck or told to stay in this tree.
Always amazes me how the country people flock to the city when the local small hospital can't figure out what to do. We don't hold it against them. I'm from the country and now the suburbs. Funny how all the country relatives tell me almost all of the poachers, game law violators and trespassers are from home.
It funny how city people enjoy spending their money taking their kids to Disney world, yet whine about not being able to walk all over their neighbors land when ever they see fit.
I'll pay to hunt great land, if there is enough of it to roam and not be stuck or told to stay in this tree.
Most would rather sneak on and shoot the first thing they see.
It funny how city people enjoy spending their money taking their kids to Disney world, yet whine about not being able to walk all over their neighbors land when ever they see fit.
I'll pay to hunt great land, if there is enough of it to roam and not be stuck or told to stay in this tree.
Most would rather sneak on and shoot the first thing they see.
Owning land can be the most satisfying accomplishment in a mans life, and at the same time the most frustrating.
Oh how true! I rarely have issues with the locals on trespass maybe a local kid every now and again on an atv but a stop by his house ends it quick enough. BUT flatlanders just assume it is there to be used as they wish. You are correct I do not own the game on my property they are free to leave but rarely do in hunting season. I farm for the game no need to farm for profit anymore. Deer turkey bear spend a lot of time here because they get harassed on the public lands that border my place. I know it POS others that the game lands deer run to my place in October and do not leave until Christmas, I also know the GWs think they can talk me into opening my place for public use but I have no plans to do so to anyone I do not want there....why ' cause where are they when I need some help on the farm...they are taking Billy to soccer practice too busy to help. Easier to blow into camp Sunday drink a few beers then try sneaking onto my place for a quick morning hunt before I catch them. Fugum all. Stay off
You think she also meant access to Deer hunting, the same as he had when he was young and without land? Then again, it may have originally been long time family land he was born to. Maybe not. However, he said if they asked he was fine with it, so I see little of her implication that applies here.
Addition: How often do you think she thinks about Deer hunting and the equality/access of it? You can do better....
I should be able to come onto your land and pick apples, shoot whatever the fugg I want, fish anytime I want and hell, I ain't got a well, I'll hook into yours for water.
We need a world without borders, because everything you 'have' is mine too.
Can't speak to your neck of the woods but in Pa, there are landowners who are fine with folks coming onto their and land picking apples in the abandoned orchard or shooting whatever (so long as it is in season). They are typically enrolled in one of the Game Commission Access programs. They are voluntarily sharing their ground with others. Not forced sharing like Ocasio-Cortez is pushing.
But there are fewer of those willing to share than there used to be. Mostly due to either someone abusing the land or a new landowner has the attitude "It's mine, all mine and I'm not sharing with anyone". In the 70's there wasn't a piece of posted ground within a mile of my house and virtually all the farms were in a access program. Now, posted signs are a dime a dozen and there are only 3 farms open to public hunting.
Dale
Careful Dale, you may get labeled thinking that way....
Are sisters up for the sharing too?
Seriously, fugg it, let them use your car, bank account, whatever the fugg. Of course the population being 50% more than when you old guys were kids has nothing to do with it. A new generation of give me, I don't have to work for anything.
If someone wants to let people hunt, or [bleep] their sisters, good on them, if the don't, good on them. I didn't grow up in the post war, boomer, liberal new deal drinking group.
So you only ever hunted on your own land. public land or land you paid to hunt on ? Where did you hunt when you were a kid ?
Where did I hunt as a kid? Federal land in Alaska. And today I hunt in these 7 states EVERY year: Montana, Wyoming, Ohio, Texas, Alaska, North Carolina and good old Pa.....yes I pay to hunt or hunt on private property owned by friends. Son you got to put the phone down and use your hands for making some $$...then you can buy your own place with a stack of NO TRESPASS signs.
Careful Dale, you may get labeled thinking that way....
Are sisters up for the sharing too?
Seriously, fugg it, let them use your car, bank account, whatever the fugg. Of course the population being 50% more than when you old guys were kids has nothing to do with it. A new generation of give me, I don't have to work for anything.
If someone wants to let people hunt, or [bleep] their sisters, good on them, if the don't, good on them. I didn't grow up in the post war, boomer, liberal new deal drinking group.
Guess I got labeled. Several times but most of them don't fit.
Steelhead, I don't know why you have a problem with someone allowing the public to hunt their land but the next time you're visiting your in-laws and want to get away, there is a farm in western Pa. you can hunt. It's about 5 hrs from the Philly area and I'll buy the first round of drinks (the drinking label fits) afterwards. Come to think of it, if I buy the drinks, I'd be sharing my bank account too.
From the Kids I see posted here, I seriously doubt the majority of them will fit into the "New generation of give me, I don't have to work for anything." Which would be the Kids we are talking about. Then the Pa population may be up 50%, but the hunting population here is down 50-75%. And the majority of those that are left in Pa don't go at it like their Dad's and Grandad's. But what the hell, just group all kids into the same picture and act that you know.
So you only ever hunted on your own land. public land or land you paid to hunt on ? Where did you hunt when you were a kid ?
Where did I hunt as a kid? Federal land in Alaska. And today I hunt in these 7 states EVERY year: Montana, Wyoming, Ohio, Texas, Alaska, North Carolina and good old Pa.....yes I pay to hunt or hunt on private property owned by friends. Son you got to put the phone down and use your hands for making some $$...then you can buy your own place with a stack of NO TRESPASS signs.
I work full time building guns for azzholes like you and I sure as fugg ain't your son. Don't need my own land to hunt. Got tens of thousands of acres of State and NYC watershed land around here to hunt on. Also have lived here my whole life and have permission to hunt on the properties of several friends, neighbors and family members in the area. When I started hunting, I could walk out my dads back door and hunt all day crossing over several property lines and never see a posted sign. My grandfather and uncle both had farms that were never posted too, so azzholes like you could hunt my families land when they were young, then grow up to post their own property and not allow others access. It's a damn shame that hunters today are killing the sport through selfishness and greed when they had the good fortune to hunt all over other peoples property as kids and young adults themselves but that's exactly what has happened.
Well Blackie my suggestion to you is get a real job earn some real money cause until you do you will be stuck on the fringe. Once you have 7 figures invested in property THEN you get to comment on who is the azzwipe ...yourself or the fringe element of the hunting society.
As for having places to hunt, i don't see this as being an issue at least in PA. The issue is and has always been the reluctance on the part of people to put forth the effort to get to them. When I was a young kid we drove all day from the SE corner of the state to get to the NC part of the state for deer hunting. Most of the people we knew felt we were crazy for doing that when a short drive to upper Bucks county or the Poconos was all that was necessary for them. Certainly those type areas have changed to the point that very little hunting can be done there except on what few areas of private/public land is left, most of which is posted. But nothing has changed in the NC region, except that the area of open public land has actually increased. Certainly some posting has taken place, but by and large it's just along the paved roads, and dosent extend very far back from them. But over the last ten years especially, the number of people hunting those lands have diminished to a very large degree. Those who think that hunting opportunities have declined, need realize that to a large degree, they have only shifted to other areas. Today, the big woods is where the biggest bucks live, whereas 25 years ago it was the farm areas. Even places like Potter county are suffering today as compared to the more rugged remote areas with lots of open land. The main issue is that it is no longer as easy as it once was, in almost every way. When I was young, deer season opening day was treated as though it were a state wide holiday. Over the years the PGC has in fact listened, and changed rules in order to pacify hunter demands. And here we are, still bitching about what few they haven't.
As for having places to hunt, i don't see this as being an issue at least in PA. The issue is and has always been the reluctance on the part of people to put forth the effort to get to them. When I was a young kid we drove all day from the SE corner of the state to get to the NC part of the state for deer hunting. Most of the people we knew felt we were crazy for doing that when a short drive to upper Bucks county or the Poconos was all that was necessary for them. Certainly those type areas have changed to the point that very little hunting can be done there except on what few areas of private/public land is left, most of which is posted. But nothing has changed in the NC region, except that the area of open public land has actually increased. Certainly some posting has taken place, but by and large it's just along the paved roads, and dosent extend very far back from them. But over the last ten years especially, the number of people hunting those lands have diminished to a very large degree. Those who think that hunting opportunities have declined, need realize that to a large degree, they have only shifted to other areas. Today, the big woods is where the biggest bucks live, whereas 25 years ago it was the farm areas. Even places like Potter county are suffering today as compared to the more rugged remote areas with lots of open land. The main issue is that it is no longer as easy as it once was, in almost every way. When I was young, deer season opening day was treated as though it were a state wide holiday. Over the years the PGC has in fact listened, and changed rules in order to pacify hunter demands.
And here we are, still bitching about what few they haven't.
I didn't read every post, however, I think this one sums it up. Of all the posts I read, I hear there is no place to hunt and all closed up. I dont buy that cause every year in almost every state in N.E. USA , deer license sales are declining and in some areas they are like crazy. Some say there are so many hunters. True, where there are lots of deer and lots of deer means land that was open 40 yrs ago is leased. I can't blame any landowner that doesnt hunt if he leases his back 40ac. for $1,000 a year to pay taxes. Just can't . I have read several times about PA. where there were deer camps and hunters. Now the same areas have old deer camps that sit empty on opening day. Why?? No ned to look any further than the snide posts on this thread, the way hunters get . Want to move up opening day from Monday to Saturday and all hell breaks loose with a big pissin match between fellow hunters. Just unreal. I will bet money , I can go to PA. on opening day, jump off out the truck on a piece of big public land , head in more than a few hundred yds and see not see any blaze orange. Bet you money I can. No, like one poster said, it's not all that great of land but there are deer there. There is a guy here from Minnesota , I think it is Gunner 500. He knows of a camp he hunted in PA. He said several times that deer camps were plentiful but now they are mostly empty. PA hunting should be good , and better than northern WIs ., its further south. As for hunting in Wis. I see the same thing . Hunting pressure opening day in N.W. Wisconsin is down at least 75%. No one wants to hunt anymore . Old deer camps falling down. Some are built and 5 yrs later they are for sale. I saw three deer there this gun season, first deer since 2016 when I saw 1 nubby buck. Many years I dont even see a deer up there. In . S.E Wis. I also hunt public land. It is 5,800 ac. There are about 100 cars parked along the roads there and hunting is not exactly good there neither. Actually it is bad hunting by most standards but I hunt it for free and it is 4 mile drive there. I hunt about 1,000 ac. of the 5,800 ac. I make the best of it and refuse to complain. As for opening day, gun season opens Sat. before Thanksgiving and it should be at least 1 week earlier up north cause no one hunts there anymore. It would increase the buck sightings a lot. Want kids to see some bucks? Hunt the rut. It will not under any way devastate the does breeding numbers. No way, those old bucks have plenty of time and mostly move at night anyway. Need to open Sunday hunting there too. It is strange to close hunting on Sundays to me.
I'm not sure how I feel about this. On the surface, it sounds like it would make it easier for kids to go hunting. I am not sure that is true. The kids have to want to go. I think a borderline-interested kid will probably be more interested in going hunting if he is missing school (or already closed for that reason). It may turn out to be harder to pull a kid away from his/her friends, girlfriend/boyfriend, or other weekend plans. Taking away the day off (school closed or otherwise) will make it less special I think. we'll see what happens.
In Wisconsin , I am all for an earlier season and PA. is about the same. Next year , Wisconsin gun opens Nov. 23. This yr it opened Nov. 17. There is a big difference in a season that starts 6 days later. The bucks are all but done rutting . Ya, I know, we still see them chasing but up in the big public land, the does are scarce. The bucks run themselves half to death for a few does. By the time Nov. 23 comes , they are tired. Trail cam pics of daytime bucks are rare, and I mean rare. One or two bucks a year after mid Nov. is rare to see a trail cam pic of any legal buck during shooting hours and this includes areas that are not even hunted so it's not hunter pressure. From Oct. 28 to Nov. 9 is when we get almost all our daytime pics of bucks, and many of those bucks would keep a youngin interested for a few more years and likely forever if they see a decent buck ever few years. Up there, you can go years without seeing a buck, any buck, even a spike is a real treat. The only way is to bait and keep a bait pile active . I refuse to hunt like that . If we outlaw bait , and everyone would stop baiting , the deer would move all day like they used to , at least a lot more than they used to. If we outlaw bait,and everyone stopped , we could hunt the whole month of November and not shoot any more bucks than the 9 day gun with bait. This way we can choose our time easier. You dont NEED to be out there opening morning a 5AM. Also, the second morning of gun season it was just below zero and a good wind. I didn't bother so I took a walk . I just dont have the desire to sit motionless in a tree for long . I likely have a deer from my home town with a bow. If the DNR wants more license , I suggest opening up season a bit earlier. One week would likely be warmer , more " fall ish " weather instead of winter. If y await to hun tlater go with a muzzleloader too if ya like the 10 below. We need to come up with something. Wisconsin lost another 14,000 gun sales tis year . Michigan wad down even more. It can't be much longer and leases will likely drop . No one hunting means less demand, less demand. Less lease demand will not fall off much cause as hunters get older, they say to heck with public and avr. age gun hunter in Wisc. is 54 yrs old. At this time in their lives , they say I will lease, sit in a warm blind on GOOD deer land and see deer. When they give up that ghost lease demand will be reduced. Has to . If license sales continue down , there is just less hunters on public. I have sure seen it in Northern Wisconsin. I have also seen it in S.E. Wisconsin too, but still a lot of hunters, just noticeably less. DNR had a big problem with gun sales. One reason is there are so many crossbow hunters now. Their success rate in Wisconsin is undeniable, and surely one reason gun hunters are tired of lack of deer, after 2 months of bow/crossbow seasons. Up north you get a bait pile going a few weeks and stupid spikes come right in. Put their heads down , stand broadside and shoot a bolt from an X bow with an aluminized scope on a rest. Its not even hunting and no harder than a deer target. To leave gun hunters sucking hind ttiit is not appreciated , although , I bow hunt , I dont bait. Baiting is for those who just want to say they shot a deer, the ones not baiting are out hunting .
As for having places to hunt, i don't see this as being an issue at least in PA. The issue is and has always been the reluctance on the part of people to put forth the effort to get to them. When I was a young kid we drove all day from the SE corner of the state to get to the NC part of the state for deer hunting. Most of the people we knew felt we were crazy for doing that when a short drive to upper Bucks county or the Poconos was all that was necessary for them. Certainly those type areas have changed to the point that very little hunting can be done there except on what few areas of private/public land is left, most of which is posted. But nothing has changed in the NC region, except that the area of open public land has actually increased. Certainly some posting has taken place, but by and large it's just along the paved roads, and dosent extend very far back from them. But over the last ten years especially, the number of people hunting those lands have diminished to a very large degree. Those who think that hunting opportunities have declined, need realize that to a large degree, they have only shifted to other areas. Today, the big woods is where the biggest bucks live, whereas 25 years ago it was the farm areas. Even places like Potter county are suffering today as compared to the more rugged remote areas with lots of open land. The main issue is that it is no longer as easy as it once was, in almost every way. When I was young, deer season opening day was treated as though it were a state wide holiday. Over the years the PGC has in fact listened, and changed rules in order to pacify hunter demands.
And here we are, still bitching about what few they haven't.
I didn't read every post, however, I think this one sums it up. Of all the posts I read, I hear there is no place to hunt and all closed up. I dont buy that cause every year in almost every state in N.E. USA , deer license sales are declining and in some areas they are like crazy. Some say there are so many hunters. True, where there are lots of deer and lots of deer means land that was open 40 yrs ago is leased. I can't blame any landowner that doesnt hunt if he leases his back 40ac. for $1,000 a year to pay taxes. Just can't . I have read several times about PA. where there were deer camps and hunters. Now the same areas have old deer camps that sit empty on opening day. Why?? No ned to look any further than the snide posts on this thread, the way hunters get . Want to move up opening day from Monday to Saturday and all hell breaks loose with a big pissin match between fellow hunters. Just unreal. I will bet money , I can go to PA. on opening day, jump off out the truck on a piece of big public land , head in more than a few hundred yds and see not see any blaze orange. Bet you money I can. No, like one poster said, it's not all that great of land but there are deer there. There is a guy here from Minnesota , I think it is Gunner 500. He knows of a camp he hunted in PA. He said several times that deer camps were plentiful but now they are mostly empty. PA hunting should be good , and better than northern WIs ., its further south. As for hunting in Wis. I see the same thing . Hunting pressure opening day in N.W. Wisconsin is down at least 75%. No one wants to hunt anymore . Old deer camps falling down. Some are built and 5 yrs later they are for sale. I saw three deer there this gun season, first deer since 2016 when I saw 1 nubby buck. Many years I dont even see a deer up there. In . S.E Wis. I also hunt public land. It is 5,800 ac. There are about 100 cars parked along the roads there and hunting is not exactly good there neither. Actually it is bad hunting by most standards but I hunt it for free and it is 4 mile drive there. I hunt about 1,000 ac. of the 5,800 ac. I make the best of it and refuse to complain. As for opening day, gun season opens Sat. before Thanksgiving and it should be at least 1 week earlier up north cause no one hunts there anymore. It would increase the buck sightings a lot. Want kids to see some bucks? Hunt the rut. It will not under any way devastate the does breeding numbers. No way, those old bucks have plenty of time and mostly move at night anyway. Need to open Sunday hunting there too. It is strange to close hunting on Sundays to me.
Good post but you are thinking of Gophergunner and not Gunner 500.
In Wisconsin , I am all for an earlier season and PA. is about the same. Next year , Wisconsin gun opens Nov. 23. This yr it opened Nov. 17. There is a big difference in a season that starts 6 days later. The bucks are all but done rutting . Ya, I know, we still see them chasing but up in the big public land, the does are scarce. The bucks run themselves half to death for a few does. By the time Nov. 23 comes , they are tired. Trail cam pics of daytime bucks are rare, and I mean rare. One or two bucks a year after mid Nov. is rare to see a trail cam pic of any legal buck during shooting hours and this includes areas that are not even hunted so it's not hunter pressure. From Oct. 28 to Nov. 9 is when we get almost all our daytime pics of bucks, and many of those bucks would keep a youngin interested for a few more years and likely forever if they see a decent buck ever few years. Up there, you can go years without seeing a buck, any buck, even a spike is a real treat. The only way is to bait and keep a bait pile active . I refuse to hunt like that . If we outlaw bait , and everyone would stop baiting , the deer would move all day like they used to , at least a lot more than they used to. If we outlaw bait,and everyone stopped , we could hunt the whole month of November and not shoot any more bucks than the 9 day gun with bait. This way we can choose our time easier. You dont NEED to be out there opening morning a 5AM. Also, the second morning of gun season it was just below zero and a good wind. I didn't bother so I took a walk . I just dont have the desire to sit motionless in a tree for long . I likely have a deer from my home town with a bow. If the DNR wants more license , I suggest opening up season a bit earlier. One week would likely be warmer , more " fall ish " weather instead of winter. If y await to hun tlater go with a muzzleloader too if ya like the 10 below. We need to come up with something. Wisconsin lost another 14,000 gun sales tis year . Michigan wad down even more. It can't be much longer and leases will likely drop . No one hunting means less demand, less demand. Less lease demand will not fall off much cause as hunters get older, they say to heck with public and avr. age gun hunter in Wisc. is 54 yrs old. At this time in their lives , they say I will lease, sit in a warm blind on GOOD deer land and see deer. When they give up that ghost lease demand will be reduced. Has to . If license sales continue down , there is just less hunters on public. I have sure seen it in Northern Wisconsin. I have also seen it in S.E. Wisconsin too, but still a lot of hunters, just noticeably less. DNR had a big problem with gun sales. One reason is there are so many crossbow hunters now. Their success rate in Wisconsin is undeniable, and surely one reason gun hunters are tired of lack of deer, after 2 months of bow/crossbow seasons. Up north you get a bait pile going a few weeks and stupid spikes come right in. Put their heads down , stand broadside and shoot a bolt from an X bow with an aluminized scope on a rest. Its not even hunting and no harder than a deer target. To leave gun hunters sucking hind ttiit is not appreciated , although , I bow hunt , I dont bait. Baiting is for those who just want to say they shot a deer, the ones not baiting are out hunting .
In Wisconsin , I am all for an earlier season and PA. is about the same. Next year , Wisconsin gun opens Nov. 23. This yr it opened Nov. 17. There is a big difference in a season that starts 6 days later. The bucks are all but done rutting . Ya, I know, we still see them chasing but up in the big public land, the does are scarce. The bucks run themselves half to death for a few does. By the time Nov. 23 comes , they are tired. Trail cam pics of daytime bucks are rare, and I mean rare. One or two bucks a year after mid Nov. is rare to see a trail cam pic of any legal buck during shooting hours and this includes areas that are not even hunted so it's not hunter pressure. From Oct. 28 to Nov. 9 is when we get almost all our daytime pics of bucks, and many of those bucks would keep a youngin interested for a few more years and likely forever if they see a decent buck ever few years. Up there, you can go years without seeing a buck, any buck, even a spike is a real treat. The only way is to bait and keep a bait pile active . I refuse to hunt like that . If we outlaw bait , and everyone would stop baiting , the deer would move all day like they used to , at least a lot more than they used to. If we outlaw bait,and everyone stopped , we could hunt the whole month of November and not shoot any more bucks than the 9 day gun with bait. This way we can choose our time easier. You dont NEED to be out there opening morning a 5AM. Also, the second morning of gun season it was just below zero and a good wind. I didn't bother so I took a walk . I just dont have the desire to sit motionless in a tree for long . I likely have a deer from my home town with a bow. If the DNR wants more license , I suggest opening up season a bit earlier. One week would likely be warmer , more " fall ish " weather instead of winter. If y await to hun tlater go with a muzzleloader too if ya like the 10 below. We need to come up with something. Wisconsin lost another 14,000 gun sales tis year . Michigan wad down even more. It can't be much longer and leases will likely drop . No one hunting means less demand, less demand. Less lease demand will not fall off much cause as hunters get older, they say to heck with public and avr. age gun hunter in Wisc. is 54 yrs old. At this time in their lives , they say I will lease, sit in a warm blind on GOOD deer land and see deer. When they give up that ghost lease demand will be reduced. Has to . If license sales continue down , there is just less hunters on public. I have sure seen it in Northern Wisconsin. I have also seen it in S.E. Wisconsin too, but still a lot of hunters, just noticeably less. DNR had a big problem with gun sales. One reason is there are so many crossbow hunters now. Their success rate in Wisconsin is undeniable, and surely one reason gun hunters are tired of lack of deer, after 2 months of bow/crossbow seasons. Up north you get a bait pile going a few weeks and stupid spikes come right in. Put their heads down , stand broadside and shoot a bolt from an X bow with an aluminized scope on a rest. Its not even hunting and no harder than a deer target. To leave gun hunters sucking hind ttiit is not appreciated , although , I bow hunt , I dont bait. Baiting is for those who just want to say they shot a deer, the ones not baiting are out hunting .
In Wisconsin , I am all for an earlier season and PA. is about the same. Next year , Wisconsin gun opens Nov. 23. This yr it opened Nov. 17. There is a big difference in a season that starts 6 days later. The bucks are all but done rutting . Ya, I know, we still see them chasing but up in the big public land, the does are scarce. The bucks run themselves half to death for a few does. By the time Nov. 23 comes , they are tired. Trail cam pics of daytime bucks are rare, and I mean rare. One or two bucks a year after mid Nov. is rare to see a trail cam pic of any legal buck during shooting hours and this includes areas that are not even hunted so it's not hunter pressure. From Oct. 28 to Nov. 9 is when we get almost all our daytime pics of bucks, and many of those bucks would keep a youngin interested for a few more years and likely forever if they see a decent buck ever few years. Up there, you can go years without seeing a buck, any buck, even a spike is a real treat. The only way is to bait and keep a bait pile active . I refuse to hunt like that . If we outlaw bait , and everyone would stop baiting , the deer would move all day like they used to , at least a lot more than they used to. If we outlaw bait,and everyone stopped , we could hunt the whole month of November and not shoot any more bucks than the 9 day gun with bait. This way we can choose our time easier. You dont NEED to be out there opening morning a 5AM. Also, the second morning of gun season it was just below zero and a good wind. I didn't bother so I took a walk . I just dont have the desire to sit motionless in a tree for long . I likely have a deer from my home town with a bow. If the DNR wants more license , I suggest opening up season a bit earlier. One week would likely be warmer , more " fall ish " weather instead of winter. If y await to hun tlater go with a muzzleloader too if ya like the 10 below. We need to come up with something. Wisconsin lost another 14,000 gun sales tis year . Michigan wad down even more. It can't be much longer and leases will likely drop . No one hunting means less demand, less demand. Less lease demand will not fall off much cause as hunters get older, they say to heck with public and avr. age gun hunter in Wisc. is 54 yrs old. At this time in their lives , they say I will lease, sit in a warm blind on GOOD deer land and see deer. When they give up that ghost lease demand will be reduced. Has to . If license sales continue down , there is just less hunters on public. I have sure seen it in Northern Wisconsin. I have also seen it in S.E. Wisconsin too, but still a lot of hunters, just noticeably less. DNR had a big problem with gun sales. One reason is there are so many crossbow hunters now. Their success rate in Wisconsin is undeniable, and surely one reason gun hunters are tired of lack of deer, after 2 months of bow/crossbow seasons. Up north you get a bait pile going a few weeks and stupid spikes come right in. Put their heads down , stand broadside and shoot a bolt from an X bow with an aluminized scope on a rest. Its not even hunting and no harder than a deer target. To leave gun hunters sucking hind ttiit is not appreciated , although , I bow hunt , I dont bait. Baiting is for those who just want to say they shot a deer, the ones not baiting are out hunting .
We gun hunter suck hind tit here in PA too.
Is there any reason you don't archery hunt?
Used to. Like guns too much and got tired of sitting out Rifle season.
OrangeDeablo, I do archery hunt but I gun hunt in the big north woods on public land. I quit bow hunting there cause it is so hard to see a deer not to mention get them close enough to shoot. To make matters worse the deer are even harder to hunt since the wolves came in 25 yrs ago. Those deer are so unbelievably spooky , I dont see how anyone could get them with a bow. They were always a bit more spooky but went into hyper spooky since the wolves came in. In Southern Wisc. where I live and hunt deer , I mostly bow hunt but also gun hunt. The bow hunting is ok at best but by the time gun season is on it's way , those high pressured public land deer are also very nocturnal and hard to even see one in the daytime.
I am looking forward to the opening day being moved to Saturday. I have hunted here in PA since 1985. I hunt mostly private land now, but have hunted widely in probably 20 counties across the state and still enjoy hunting both game commission and state forest tracts every year. My daughters are basketball players, so a saturday opener will probably give us a chance to get out with other family and spend some time in the woods. I also look forward to the day we catch up with the rest of the nation and allow Sunday hunting. I also really enjoy hunting deer with a bow, inline, and flintlock when I still have tags left.
I find that many of the guys I grew up hunting with have many other competing interests and increased resources so they seldom prioritize rifle hunting in PA anymore. Some use leave for western early season hunts and others migrate to Kansas or other midwest destinations for rut hunts with archery gear or to take advantage of earlier opening rifle seasons. I do this stuff also and admittedly don't put as much into rifle or bow season here as I did historically.
Oh ya , Gophergunner. I dont think he piped in on this thread.
I didn't read through all the posts. I just check in here once in a while on this thread. I don't know if I ticked anyone off with any previous comments, but I'll chime in here. It wouldn't bother me if they changed the opener to Saturday. Having moved out of the area to states that hunt on Sunday, I think it would help hunter retention numbers to be able to open on a Saturday and hunt Sundays too.
Our camp is one of 7 on the trail we're on. Back in the day, all 7 camps would be occupied for the opener. Nowadays, two of the camps have guys in for the opener. It's a shame to see such a time honored tradition fading away. Many of the crews "aged out" as did our camp, and our good friends across the trail. None of the younger generation took up the torch, or moved elsewhere. A ride around the mountain to visit "the neighbors" during deer season is a pretty sobering experience these days. Iconic camps with names like Bear's Den, Camp Misery, and the Plastered Bastards sit empty, or have been totally abandoned. There's tons of public land in our area. Heck most of Boone Mountain, which is where our camp is, is State Forest.
I really think something needs to be done to rectify this situation. Our heritage just can't afford to keep bleeding like this. I well remember the run to camp before I-80 went through. All those little towns we passed through were beehives of activity. The bars and restaurants were hopping, the motels were booked solid,every camp had a full compliment of guys in, and the gun shops and hardware stores were incredibly busy.
I was hunting a lot of geese back then, but I loved to hunt deer too, so I welcomed it.
)
I almost prefer as much orange as possible when rifle hunting. Mostly for someone to see me from as far as possible and stay away.
