Originally Posted by supercrewd
Doc, we are talking about the Miami shoot out. In Cooper's words Platt's "poodle shooter" was able to function pretty well in close quarters. I am just extending that line of thought with this discussion. I see pretty much all of the LEO's using the M4 these days, so if all the modern technique has evolved from this incident, then the M4 in LEO's hands has certainly come from that as well. A light easily controllable, forward optic rifle is what Cooper advocated. I know he did not like the .223.a

If every LEO must be an equal to Jeff Cooper, well then we have some pretty well trained officers out there.


Hey, I'm not saying y'all can't discuss it here... I just thought/think it's an interesting question and I'd like to hear what other folks might have to say.

Cooper didn't like the 223 in no small part because the 55 gr FMJ ammo at the time he was writing about scout rifles wasn't a particularly good round compared to what we have today. Of course, he was steeped in the tradition and lore of WWII and the Korean War, and as such was totally convinced of the superiority of the .30-06/.308 battle rifle round over the proven-anemic M1 Carbine; the .223 was a "carbine round" in his writing, IIRC, and as such equivalent to the .30 Carbine FMJ. It didn't help any that the M16A1 was/is a bigger and less CQB-friendly rifle than the M4 used today.

In the past 10 years, our guys in The Sandbox have been using the M4 in situations from CQB to 300 meters. The ammunition our guys have today is orders of magnitude better than 55 gr ball. I think that, whatever Cooper's view of the .223 was, it is being used as a de facto "scout rifle" today, both overseas and in LE situations in the CONUS.


"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars