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When you have discovered perfection (which I did almost 30 years ago), you need search no further. The Government Model .45 is the ideal gun for personal defense at home and carried concealed. It is chambered for the most perfect of combat rounds, the .45 ACP, rated number one in one shot stops, and known the world over as a top-notch fight stopper. It's recoil is mild enough for all but the most recoil-sensative to master, and it is so nice and slim that it fits perfectly in an IWB holster, easily concealed with a light jacket, sweater or untucked shirt. If you require lightweight and compact, there are aluminum-framed commander-length models available. The Government Model .45 is also increadibly rugged and reliable, assuming 1) you don't buy a bargain basement rendition, and 2) you learn proper maintenance. So throw away all of your Berettas, Sigs, and whatnots. All you need is a Colt .45 Automatic. P.S., Just thought I'd try to liven up the conversation around here. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
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Campfire Kahuna
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WELL, I'll tell you what Mr. TRH................................... Your right!
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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Hawk, I'll further fuel the fire with saying that you further only need to look so far as ______ <fill in blank with manufacturer of choice> is the only model of 1911 that is worth a darn. Of course, we all know a Colt series70 1911 is the right choice for that blank ... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
B.I.C.
'tikka
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Thanks, T Lee. It's about time someone just came out and said this. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Wannatikka, just as long as we are both in agreement that no other handgun does the job of combat as well as the good old 1911A1 .45 automatic, that's ok with me. What's in my holster is a pre-series 70 commercial Colt Government Model, 100% stock (other than a nice set of coco bolo double diamond pattern grips).
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Campfire Ranger
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I don't believe Old Slabsides can be beat either unless you are of the die hard spray and pray school. In that case a high cap 9m/m will take over for sheer volume. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
BCR
Quando Omni Moritati
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BCR, as the great Jeff Cooper said, "Whereas it is not very hard to imagine a good man with a Government Model .45 clearing a room of three or even four armed miscreants, doing so with a 9mm would be." If your gun's a .45, eight is more than enough.
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The funny thing is that everything I have read regarding the Marhall-Sanow reports etc. have not proclaimed the .45 ACP #1 in one shot kills as you so boldly proclaim. Seems to me there is something called a uhhh.. .356 no no that's not it umm... .358 no no that's the bullet diameter oh yeah it's the .357 Magnum. Yeah that's the one. 125 grain jacketed hollowpoints. Does that ring a bell? SHow me your proof that the .45 ACP is the king of one shot stops!
Don't get me wrong I love my Kimber in .45 but lets try to stay factual here in the real world. Sean
"You shouldn't say it is not good. You should say you do not like it; and then, you know, you're perfectly safe." James Whistler
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Last I checked, the 230 grain Hydrashok was neck and neck with the .357 Magnum 125 grain JHP. At any rate, there is no comparison when it comes to shootability, concealability and carryability. The Government Model .45 has the .357 beat.
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Where did you find this info? Honestly, I would like to read it. On my person I can't see as where one has an advantage over the other. You are entitled to your opinion, and if you feel that way great but don't state it as an absolute when all it is is your opinion. Sean
"You shouldn't say it is not good. You should say you do not like it; and then, you know, you're perfectly safe." James Whistler
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Campfire Kahuna
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I do a MKIV Series 70 Commander for most of my carry. It will do to ride the river with most days!
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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LoneEagle, opinion is what we're all about here. You'd be better off getting used to people expressing theirs with gusto, and stop being so sensative. It's all in fun here. Nothing wrong with disagreeing with what I say. Just makes you more than likely wrong, which is not the worst thing in the world. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Now for the 230 grain Hydrashok vs the 125 grain JHP, I read quite a lot, and unfortunately I don't keep a notebook, so I cannot provide you with a source. But, as I said, last I checked the 230 grain Hydrashok was neck and neck with the vaunted magnum, at considerably reduced flash and recoil, and in a much more rugged and combat-effective delivery system. What have you found to be the case, as between the two rounds, in your reading?
Keep in mind that I don't consider a 2 or 3 percent point difference scientifically significant. Nor should you. That is well within any reasonable margin for error. Best I can recall, was that they were both about 90% one shot stoppers (that is, the best 125 grain .357 Magnum loading out of 4" service length barrels vs the 230 grain Hydrashok fired from 5" service length barrelled auto-pistols). Keep in mind also, that my assertion relates to over-all usefullness as a combat weapon, which includes such factors as concealability, shootability and ruggedness, as well as ease of tactical reloads, etc.,. If we are talking a difference of two or three percentage points in one shot stops, this is not enough to raise the magnum to the level of the 1911A1 Government Model .45, IN MY OPINION. Even if the difference were slightly greater, the magnum would still be inferior over all, IMO.
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in a much more rugged and combat-effective delivery system. Really? Is that why military 1911's had to be so loose that you'd be lucky to hit the broad side of a barn with one? Because they are so much more combat effective? When was the last time a revolver jammed on an improper crimp or a bad magazine? One that had been dropped or a feed lip dented? Now like I said I like my Kimber and I do keep it loaded as a defensive gun but let's stick to reality here. Keep in mind also, that my assertion relates to over-all usefullness as a combat weapon, which includes such factors as concealability, shootability and ruggedness I don't believe that concealability has anything to do with COMBAT effectiveness. In combat the soldier wears his sidearm out in the open. You seem to be the only one that is overly sensitive here. You made a sweeping generalization that is not particularly accurate and when I asked for your references you have none that you can point to just :the last time I checked" I disagreed with you and not liking it you tell me I am wrong. Oh well sorry to interrupt your "King of the World" post with fact. Have a nice day. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Sean
"You shouldn't say it is not good. You should say you do not like it; and then, you know, you're perfectly safe." James Whistler
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Hawk, I'll let you in on a little secret .... shh ... don't tell anyone but ....... I still don't have a 1911. Whew, that was tough. But they say admitting the problem is the first step to licking it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> I've only had wheelguns and never got around to getting an auto (until very recently a little Ruger 22/45 for bullseye). I'm still on the lookout for that clean used G19 for fun, but I have really been eyeing the new Colt 1911A1 with pre-series 70 firing mech. I had always liked the classic 1911 lines but wheelguns were just more affordable for me. Now I'm looking along the lines of the Colt or possibly a SA 1911. Sure I can pay less for SA and get a quality gun, but there is just something about getting the real thing. Since WI is no CCW, I'd probably just play around with accurizing and add in the CF & .45 portion to my bullseye regime for now. Oh well, better end this stream-of-consciousness and get back to work......
B.I.C.
'tikka
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Wannatikka, I have two Springfields, and they are both completely problem free. I wouldn't hesitate.
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LoneEagle, you really seem to be going ballistic here (pardon the pun). Try to relax and enjoy this site a little more. It's not about getting in a huff whenever you disagree with someone, or feel you have the facts on your side. Just state what your opinion is, and if you have some evidence to support it that you'd like to present, you should just do it. I am willing to look at what you have. As for combat effectiveness, a handgun would be rather ineffective sitting at home in the safe. Therefore, it is my opinion that the carryabilty of the .45 contributes significantly to its combat effectiveness. As for me, I find any revolver extremely uncomfortable in an IWB holster, which is the only way I carry, and is, IMO, the best way to carry a concealed carry weapon. P.S. When I am speaking a little "tongue in cheek," you will see a little yellow face of some sort after what I said. It will look kinda like this. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> or <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> or maybe <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> or <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
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Campfire Kahuna
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Really? Is that why military 1911's had to be so loose that you'd be lucky to hit the broad side of a barn with one? Because they are so much more combat effective? The military ones are loose on purpose, so they will function when VERY dirty. I can hit the broad side of a man every time with one of those "loose as a goose" pistols out to fifty yards and have been able to since my introduction to them. Just a thought. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I haven't found any willing volunteers to stand down range when they start telling me how "inaccurate 'ol slabsides is!
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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Here is a link to a stopping power rating http://home.earthlink.net/~kvuo/text/stop80d.txt You are right that the .45 equals the .357 but does not exceed it by any stretch. I do enjoy this place. I don't often get riled up and as a matter of fact I was not, nor am I now, riled by this post. I was hoping you could point me towards the references that backed your statement. As I have said since my first post. I like the 1911, but it is not IMO the be all and end all of defensive firearms. I would not be without either. I just need to add a 4" .357 to be truly happy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Have a nice day. Sean
"You shouldn't say it is not good. You should say you do not like it; and then, you know, you're perfectly safe." James Whistler
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Sean, to tell you the truth, I must admit to owning a really nice Smith and Wesson four inch Distinguished Combat Magnum from the Custom Shop (among other assorted "wheel guns"). It has a great Black T finish, super nice trigger action (both single and double), and I have no intention of selling it. Would not want to carry it in an IWB, but it's a great shooting belt holster gun, and I would not feel poorly armed in a fight while I had it (heavy enough to soak up a lot of the magnum recoil). I happen to be highly skilled in the double action revolver. Spent many years and lots of ammo developing the skill, but I just prefer the 1911A1 now, and that's pretty much all I shoot nowadays (though I had a short-term love affair with a Kahr P9 recently). My intention here was to spark a response from people like yourself, so mission accomplished. Seems like we are becoming a steadily smaller group at the handgun section, so I guess we should try not to piss each other off so much. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Take care.
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Hawk - Your opinion is close to what Evan Marshall published in "Street Stoppers" his latest with actual street results. Tied for first Rem and Fed 125 gr .357 96% one-shot-stops. In close are a couple of .45 ACP's Fed 230 HydraShok and Rem 230 Golden Saber come in at 94% and 93% respectively in one-shot-stops. The best 9mm is Cor-Bon's 115 grain JHP +p at 91% which beat out four +p+ loads two from Fed and one each from Rem and Winc which are in the 89 to 90% range. The best .44 Mag is Win 210 STHP at 90% and the best .41 Mag is the 170 grain STHP from Win at 89%. And I could live with a 1911 in .45 ACP as my single selfdefense handgun. Having been agreeable, I must also say that most people should not carry cocked and locked and should carry a nice double action or safe action pistol or revolver. As for me I am totally comfortable with my Glock 33 with 10 Cor-Bon 115 grain JHP .357 Sig cartridges therein. Small, very accurate, more reliable in my expericence than 1911's and as easy to shoot. Fits nicely in my front pant pocket in an Uncle Mike's Pocket Holster. Finally the first three thing in importance after reliability are marksmanship, marksmanship and marksmanship then maybe the cartridge caliber comes next. Another opinion. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Norm -
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Hi Guys,
It's great to see there are still those who have opinions and are prepared to justify them. I personally haven't found a good inside-the-waist-band holster to be a problem with a 4" 629 revolver. Having said that, the .45 Automatic Colt Pistol (or any copies you like) is flatter and faster to reload. I don't disassemble my revolver unless there is an overwhelming need, like I've been dunked in the creek gun and all. This only happened once with a Charter Arms .44 Spl bulldog, but that's another story. I do feel (probably undeservidly) competent to field strip my .45 ACPs and do routine maintnance like cleaning. My clockwork S&W revolvers only get their side panels removed by someone not dangerous with small tools like me. I guess I'll have to say my Redhawk and Blackhawks do get some mild disassembly. The maintenance issue lends itself to reliability, in which a well maintained revolver and automatic are so close in normal civilian use as to be a non-issue. All of us who went through the Bangor-Punta stage at S&W know a good revolver needs to be used and test fired to ensure it doesn't come loose, have cylinder float, come out of time, and so on. Machinery is imperfect and is as good as the user makes it. The revolvers do seem to pack more punch in the same size if you can handle the recoil, muzzle flash, and barrel cylinder gap issues.
How good are the S&W Performance Center models? I'm thinking of spending silly money on a 625 5.25" just because my 25-2 needs a little brother in stainless steel. A fool and his money...etc.
Carson
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Carson,
Regarding S&W PC guns. I have one currently. It is a 627-3 stainless steel 8-shot .357 with a 5" barrel. The cylinder is countersunk and can be loaded with our without 8-shot moon clips.
The action is good (but not that much better than my 629 non PC gun) and the gun is heavy enough to stay on target cranking out the 8 in about 3 seconds. With the moon clips getting the 8 empties out and 8 loads back in is about as quick as dropping an empty mag, inserting a new one and releasing the slide to go home.
It could be can be carried concealed but I usually carry something smaller.
Norm -
NRA Member Since 1966
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Actually, when I said my S&W is from the "Custom Shop" I, of course, meant the Performance Center. The Custom Shop is a Kimber thing.
Norm, I suspect you know that I was just being curmudgeonly when I wrote that about the 1911 Government Model. I am more flexible in real life. I will allow that those who are not willing to put in the time and effort to learn the Government Model should stick with the double action guns, both autos and revolvers. Not that a man who is an expert in a double action is necessarily a man who is not willing to put in time and effort. Double action shooters can be damned good and expert with them things. Still think the 1911A1 .45 is the best all around, assuming a person is willing to learn it, and put in the time and energy to shoot it and maintain it. Still love my revolvers though. Can't bring myself to sell any of them, even though I don't plan on shooting them much anymore. Well, maybe I'll sell a few, but there is a core that I will not sell. Still nothing like a double action revolver for loading, sticking in a quick access lock box, and leaving there for years on end without worrying about any springs wearing out from being loaded. That's really the only role they serve for me anymore.
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Hawk,
I did figure that you were in your curmudgeon mode. But what a good way of getting a hot thread moving!
Actually we are pretty well in agreement. I think you are right about the .45 in the right hands.
I mix my shooting between the four types: Single Action Revolver, SA Semiauto, DA Revolvers and DA Semiauto. Mostly it's I read something in a gun magazine about .45 ACP and I trundle the big bore out and shoot it.
I shoot my two carry irons the most for the obvious reason. The S&W 642 .38 and the Glock 33 .357 Sig get most of the action these days.
As far as springs go, I am pretty comfortable rotating magazines every two months at a minimum. In the early 80s a friend gave me a couple of .45 magazines that had been loaded with 7 rounds since before the end of WWII.
Both mags functioned perfectly through my old 1911 WWI pistole.
Norm -
NRA Member Since 1966
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Norm, I didn't say that the springs would wear out. I said that I would worry about them wearing out. Big difference.
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Campfire Outfitter
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For those throwing the rest away ... please PM me!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'll even do the favor of paying shipping <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
George
George Associate Gypsy Order of Sleepless Knights ... That is when I carried you ...
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I love the 1911 .45. I have several semi - autos and nothing fits my hand like a 1911. I will not ever own a colt again. I have had three and all have had to have work done on them to make them reliable. I have two springfields and a Kimber, all three were reliable out of a box and I carry one of them every day with confidence. Can't say the same about a colt.
Sothrdnk
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sothrdnk, you have to take a newer look at Colt. It is not the same company it was from 1980-1998, or thereabouts. There is someone in charge of it now who is turning the company around. Their quality control is more like it was pre 1980 again, if not better. If you were to purchase, for example, their WWII Repro 1911A1 or their Colt/Gunsite Pistol, or their new Mk IV Series 70, you'd be happy with the product. Colt is back. I have the WWII Repro, and that thing can shoot, and was made right. This gun will last generations of shooters, and give excellent service.
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Hawk, Sorry I didn't mean to misquote you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Sometimes my fingers are faster than my brain. And my fingers are slow. Metallurgy today (assuming a quality mfg firm) has made spring worries mostly passe. Unfortunately, I have mindsets that have hung on for decades. Long years ago I bought a set of aftermarket springs for my Ruger Secuity Six .357 my duty gun at the time. After six months and two qualifications I was at the range one day and the hammer spring broke. Needless to say I immediately went back to the original Ruger springs which still work 20 years later. So I worry about springs wearing out or breaking when I haven't had a bad spring since that once incident.
Norm -
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No, Hawkeye, I'm not throwing out my other handguns. Try a .44 Magnum at 400 yds. Even at that distance, it hits harder than the .45 ACP out the muzzle. But, like you, I discovered the 1911 Colt long ago. Try over 40 years ago.
Unquestionably a solid stopper. It has the ability to shoot through doors, and glass that the 9 mm and the .357 can't match.
A rugged gun. And easy to maintain and repair. I've seen lots of stuff droped and used as clubs. I have never seen an all steel pistol broken like that. About half of the wheelguns were picked up unfunctional.
And very flexible. I've used mine as a hunting pistol. A very satisfactory small-medium game gun.
Interesting post. I chuckle at the "one shot stop" statistics. They always try to standardize, and make sure there are no modifying circumstances. When the folks collecting the data do that, they ignore the realities of the real world. In street confrontations, home confrontations, etc.; most of the bad guys are under the influence of something. That means they get one in the chest, and, if that doesn't work, one between the headlamps. Yes. Hard to do. That's why I advise "whatever you shoot best".
I do not agree that the 1911 is easy to shoot. It is very grip sensitive, for one thing. Only of interest to the target shooter/hunter, I agree, but a point just the same. The bottom line is that those posting here are all serious shooters. Those without this level of experience and motivation don't find the big 1911 easy at all. Or even do able. E
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I'm assuming most of you know the history behind the .45acp. For those who don't, quick history lesson: At the turn of the century the issue sidearm was a revolver chambered for, I believe, .38S&W. We had a police action going in some country or other and the natives didn't appreciate it much. Now these natives, I believe Zulu warriors but I could be wrong, had a habit of pre-turniqueing themselves and getting stoned on a hallucinagenic plant before going into battle. Predictably, the .38 LRN bullets had little affect on these guys. The Colt SAA was brought out of mothballs while the Army looked for a replacement for the issue .38 caliber revolver. The .45acp and a self-loading pistol to fire it were adopted in 1911. I could be wrong but I believe this was too late for it to prove its worth against the native warriors. But a legend and myth were born at the same time. Now I have a problem here. I wouldn't want to use a pistol, especially with a ball load, against anyone like these warriors. Give me a good rifle or 12 gauge shotgun with plenty of good ammo instead. Additionally, I really don't believe the re-issued Colt SAA did much except improve troop moral. As for the .357mag's inability to penetrate: It was developed to do just that. The original loading was [email]158gr  1500fps[/email] from an 8" barrel and was designed under pressure from law enforcement as a more effective round to be used against a new threat, automobiles being used in crimes (think Bonnie and Clyde here guys and gals). I stand by my belief that the best pistol and load is the one that you trust to get you through the night. I recently had an experience that I'm not ready to relive yet. But as the Taurus 92 leaped into my hand and the sights came to bear I was not busy questioning my choice of either caliber or load. The pistol has been my constant companion for five years now and I've seen no reason to change. EC P.S. Yes, before you ask, some of you do know me. I'm not an imposter <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
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If .36 caliber was good enough for Wild Bill Hickok, it's good enough for me.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Well EC, close but it was in the Philippines and against the Moro Indians of the region. Not only did they do drugs, but wrapped their bodies tightly with vines to slow bleeding from any wounds. You are right, the 1911 was too late for the conflict.
The revolvers were caliber .38 long BTW @ 750 FPS or so, a lousy performer!
Oh yeah! WELCOME to this little patch!
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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EC, they had to have handguns, because number one, they were cavalry, and number two, the Moro indians would be upon them in seconds from the jungles, where the rifle was not effective (too CQB). You are wrong about it being just morale. In CQB, the .45 has always been found to be more effective than smaller rounds at stopping determined attacks by drug-crazed and/or psyched up individuals. The Brits had the same exact experience in Africa, using their .445 Webleys and Eleys against human-wave attacks, where their front lines were broken, and rifles were no longer the weapon of choice. They found the .455 to be significantly more effective than smaller handguns. If it were not so, they wouldn't have used them, as you can carry more ammo with a .38 revolver, and the British were a very practical people at that time. It was only with the perfecting of light expanding bullets driven to very high velocity that the .355/357 caliber handgun round came into the same domain as the .45, regarding reputation for stopping power. But with the .45, you already have a big hole with plenty of penetration, so expansion, though nice, isn't strictly necessary.
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T and Hawk-- the Moro were/are Philippino Muslims. Not indians.
The Brits kept the .455 Webly until they decided that the 38/200 was just as effective. That is the 38S&W with a 200 grain bullet. Whether it really was or not I don't know.
BCR
Quando Omni Moritati
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Last time I checked both my stainless Smith & Wesson .357 Magnums cost less than one stainless Kimber...so I'll just hold on to my revolvers thank you very much
"No honest man needs more than ten rounds in any gun." William Batterman Ruger
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BCR, the Brits switched to the .38 not because it was just as effective, but because they had finished "civilizing the savages," so to speak. When WWI rolled around, it was felt that a .38 would be sufficiently powerful for dealing with fellow Europeans, and besides, it was easier and cheaper to train their troops in its use, as it had considerably lighter recoil. It was only when their warring became mainly a European thing that they felt safe in switching to the .38. While the savages were breathing down their necks, their field officers insisted on a .455. In fact, their "jungle outposts" retained the .445s even after the regular army switched to the .38.
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See now, this is what I mean. Ya'll are comparing apples and oranges here. Back then the .38S&W was just a LRN with low speed, and like was stated had dismal stopping power. Enter the .357mag, 9mm, etc. Now we have expanding bullets and very high speeds. While the .45acp cartridge has remained basically unchanged except for bullet design the other, smaller type ammo has managed to pack approximately the same stopping power into a compact package, allowing more ammo to be carried. Now back then I would have taken the .45 COLT (not acp), preferably loaded with LSWC profile rounds. Today, in the same situation, facing the same enemy, I would most definitely choose a 9mm with several hi-cap mags and, ignoring the laws of war, proven +P+ hollowpoint like the Gold Dot, Federal 9mm BPLE, or Cor�Bon rounds. I would also still take a short barreled combat 12 gauge or a CAR-15 blown out to 6.8mm as my very first choice, btw. An M14, modified my way (folding stock, bayonet, etc), would be my second choice, and third choice would be a modified Stoner with the barrel lobbed off back to the gas tube. I better quit, starting to drool. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> EC
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If .36 caliber was good enough for Wild Bill Hickok, it's good enough for me.
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Oh, but EC, as a very wise individual once said, "Whereas a .357 caliber bullet may expand, a .45 never shrinks." Why do you suppose that elite tactical units almost always insist on a .45, and not a .357 Sig or Magnum? There are certain circumstances which hinder bullet expansion, and these units require a big hole ever time, without exception. That's were the .45 shines. It's 230 grain bullet provides planty of momentum for pushing that big fat slug deep, and the hole it makes is always at least .45 caliber. With something like the .230 grain Hydrashok, the hole can be even bigger and uglier, while penetration (due to good weight retention) remains perfectly adequate.
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However, Mr. Hawkeye Pearce, speed helps build a temporary cavity which, while not causing additional tissue damage at typical handgun speeds, helps let the person know he's been hit. That's half of stopping power right there. The rest is divided between damage and blood loss.
Since the brain is saturated in oxygenated blood, the person may continue to operate up to several minutes at near zero blood pressure. A true instantaneous one (or two, or three, or four) shot stop may only be achieved with a hit to the CNS, which is kinda' hard to do. True, you can break the pelvic girdle with 9mm on up, but if the person is still able to shoot, that's not a stop. In most instances a "stop" occurs when the attacker decides to give up.
Looking at it from this angle, the 9mm at supersonic speeds matches the stopping power of a .45acp at subsonic speeds. Ball rounds in both calibers are so closely matched on the "one shot stop" tables that the difference isn't even worth mentioning. The 9mm NATO rounds also have the advantage of being designed for cavitation, which I'm not sure the .45acp achieves.
It's really all just about bullet placement. As long as I have a .380acp/.38spl on up I'm happy. I'm even happier that the defensive rounds I choose to carry closely match a mild to medium .357mag load, and that I have 30 on me, 15 in the gun and 15 in the spare mag. And no, I don't spray and pray. I count rounds as I found out recently.
Rebuttal?
EC (this is gettin' fun!)
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If .36 caliber was good enough for Wild Bill Hickok, it's good enough for me.
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Campfire Kahuna
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BCR, I always heard them referred to as the Moro Tribe and therfore assumed (you know what that means) they were indians.
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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EC, when referring to military use, you have to go with bigger is better. The military does not have the luxery of high performance ammo, ball is what they use. Now with the choice of premium designed ammo the smaller calibers are better than .45 ball. Just a thought.
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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T Lee, This data is a few years old but should still serve its purpose as hardball has been around for quite awhile: 9mm ball vs .45acp ball ammo
Manu. Type Grains fps fpe Shoot. Success
Win FMJ 115 1153 341 256 63%
Win FMJ 230 835 356 179 63% Taken from Towert's page at: http://www.powernet.net/~eich1/sp.htmlMy only comment is that there are plenty of shootings for both. EC <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
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If .36 caliber was good enough for Wild Bill Hickok, it's good enough for me.
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Data is data, real effect is another ball of wax. The big fat slugs just put an antoganist down faster in the real world. If ballistic experiments were true, in real world scenario's we would all be carring guns that fired 25 gn bullets at 3500 FPS, trouble is they don't work out that way against adreniline pumped living targets as they do against ballistic geletin or wet newspaper.
Thats why dangerous big game is still taken with big bullets, not the "mini-mags". Lethal and quick stopping are not the same. Both are desirable against a determined antoganist, quick stop the first priority.
Ain't gonna get into which is better, 9MM or .45. I will just stick with big, heavy and thump-em.
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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When I referred to the Moros as Indians, I was just following T Lee's example. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
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Hawk, never follow the lost, or you too will be lost! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
'Sides, thats why Boggy is a Ranger, he knows the way.
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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T LEE,
The .38's that the gvt was issuing during the Spanish American War were so ineffective agains the drugged Philipine natives that soldiers were issued Starr Double Action precussion revolvers in .44 caliber. They also re-issued .45 Single Action Army's as well.
Norm -
NRA Member Since 1966
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T Lee, I thought that's what this thread was about? The .45acp against all the rest? I was havin' fun! Those numbers were taken from real world shootings, not ballistic gelatin or any other estimation medium. Oh well, best not to argue with friends! Hawkeye, I await your rebuttal with much fervor and impatience! EC <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
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If .36 caliber was good enough for Wild Bill Hickok, it's good enough for me.
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EC, For your consideration, two real scenario's and there outcome.
First one:
A two man radio patrol unit pulls up in front of a business at closing time, the driver gets
out to check on the clerk but is suprised by a BG coming out the door gun in hand. The
Officer draws and fires two RNL 158 gn .38 Spls right through the BG's sternum and
heart. The BG leans against the door frame and raises his gun towards the now retreating
to cover Officer and fires once, the Officer is knocked down by a bullet strike on his
lower leg and rendered unconcious by the impact of his head on the curb. The BG is
using an antique Colt "Thunderer" in .41 LC that fires a 200 gn RNFP bullet @ 760 FPS
or so, the .38 is traveling at about 850 FPS. The Officers partner gets a CNS hit and puts
the BG down as he is readying to shoot Officer 1 again.
Even though the Officer "killed" the BG according to the autopsy report the BG was still
able to continue fighting long enough to have killed the Officer if the Officer had not had
a partner to help him.
Second one:
A one man unit arrives at a burgerly call and is immediatly confronted by an armed BG
who shoots the Officer with a .380 ACP twice in the chest. The Officer is wearing a
winter uniform and heavy jacket and the rounds just penetrate the skin and skip off on the
ribs underneath. The Officer fires one .45 ACP 230 gn FMJ and hits the BG in the hip,
through a Navy P coat and jeans shattering it. The BG go's down for the count but
survives the shooting to stand trial on one leg.
Which is better, knock down or lethality?
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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T and Hawk, reference the Moro. Wasn't trying to be a smart azz. Deal is when you put something that is wrong in a post then no matter how accruate you are in the rest a reader will suspect it because he knows something you said was wrong. Applies even if the wrong info doesn't have much bearing on the point of the post. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Just ask me, I am a freaking expert on being wrong. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> BCR
Quando Omni Moritati
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Not a problem Boggy, I appreciate the info. I was working from foggy memory and we all know what happens when you do THAT. Been a long time since school and the cobwebs are getting thick.
I think in my case Kahuna means dumb azz!
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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EC, you do huh? Well, here it is. The methodology of that study is flawed. Everybody knows the .45 is the king of the world. No study necessary. I reject your figures out of hand. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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Mr. Hawkeye Pearce,
Be careful of blanket statements like that... not everybody thinks the .45acp is the king of the world, me included.
One question: If a cut down .50AE were introduced in say, a SIG, and that sucker scooted along at right around 900fps but was controllable, would you immediately drop your puny .45acp chambered 1911 and rund out and buy one? Inquiring minds want to know. Ammo would be plentiful in practice rounds, Gold Dots, Hydra-Shok, etc.
T Lee,
I have a feeling that those stories are something you really didn't want to bring up. If that really is the case then I won't argue with them. That goes double since that one experience that I had not so long ago. People second-guessing my every move even though they weren't there.
EC
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If .36 caliber was good enough for Wild Bill Hickok, it's good enough for me.
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EC, nope. The gun you describe is a double action. The gun you describe would have a lot of blast, flash and recoil, compared to the mild mannered .45 ACP. The gun you describe is fat and blocky, while the 1911 is slim and rounded. The gun you describe just doesn't have the class and history of the Government Model .45. You just can't beat a 1911, in my book. It's got it all.
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Just my way of pointing out there are "real world stats" and "real world experience", I'll be forced to go with the "real world experiance". Seen the difference betweem small and big, gotta go with big as most hits aren't always optimal as you are aware.
Yes I was "Oficer 1" in the first story, over 35 years ago. A fellow officer was the second one a few months later, and I arrived seconds after the the fight ended in time to call the ambulance for him and the BG. They no longer bother me, in fact the only thing that bothered me was I didn't have enough gun!
As you should note, it was awhile ago, no body armor!
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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T Lee, I, for one, am glad that I can learn from YOUR experience, rather than from a similar first-hand experience, in this case. Very good point. Hope the leg is better now.
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Thanks TRH, the leg healed and worked quite nicely afterwards, minus the lower half of the Fibula. My head or more to the point, the contents therein, have been questioned many times since however! LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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T Lee, glad to hear it. As for your gray matter, I think you are well on your way to full recovery. Your old I.Q. was 158, wasn't it? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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There's three number IQ's? Didn't know they went that high! LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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The original .357 load did develop 1500 fps. with a 158 gr. bullet. It will shoot through glass and doors. The trouble is it was loaded to 40,000 psi. Nothing like it is loaded today. All .357 mag ammo is standardized at 30,000 psi.
Even if it were, it has very little left. See the FBI tests when they looked for a better round. That's why they went to to .40 S&W. Enough energy to do some good after shooting through a car door or auto glass. So does the .45 ACP.
I do recommend the 9mm, or the .357, over the .45/.40 family if the shooter can shoot one significantly better. Remember, Bad Guys are often on something, and can be a nightmare to stop.
I've owned 3 9's, one .357, a couple of .38's, 4 1911 .45's, a .41 and a couple of .44 Mags. I've seen them all used in the field, often by me, and the street. I've used both the .44 Mag., and the .45 ACP in the street. I didn't get to pick my fights. I didn't get to pick what, and whom, I was up against. I "came to believe" that bigger is better. Especially when I've got more than one to deal with, or something to shoot through. E
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Hawkeye,
Let's just suppose I'm not recoil sensitive. Let's further suppose that I have big hands. Hands that don't always let me get a positive disengagement on any grip safety.
The problem with the grip safety is why I never went with the 1911. I don't care what style beavertail you put on one, I just can't get positive disengagement. I won't pin the safety on one because of potential court problems.
Now, if I decide to put my faith in a larger round than the 9mm, why not go whole hog? I don't see a problem with a .50AE Short. Use suppressed powder if you don't want flash, and a barrel that's about 5" long suits me just fine.
Now, the reason I didn't go with the .45acp cartridge to begin with is because after studying numerous exchanges of lead I came to believe you need to shoot as fast as possible while maintaining accuracy. The .45acp doesn't let me do that as quickly as with a 9mm, especially in a full-sized PT92 package. Further, if I am facing multiple assailants, I want more than 8 shots. If there are four people that leaves me with 2 shots apiece.
Now if I'm going to go subsonic then yes, I will go with a big, heavy bullet. I've been considering a 2" snubbie revolver as a backup chambered in .45Colt if I can find one, and if not, .44spl.
I'm not thinking too well right now and I'm sure you'll shoot this argument full of holes. Go for it and I'll respond when I'm a bit more clear-headed.
EC
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If .36 caliber was good enough for Wild Bill Hickok, it's good enough for me.
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It's not about recoil sensativaty. It's about quick follow up shots in combat. Why would I want that piece of junk you describe when I can have a 1911A1 in .45 ACP? If I want to hunt elk with a handgun, I'll get one in .50 AE.
I have never had a problem with the grip safety. If you have a problem, there are designs that will fix it, or you can pin it down. The only way that might get you in trouble is in the case where you claim you had an accidental discharge, and hurt someone or something. Solution; don't have an accidental discharge. Learn safe gun handling till you are accident proof.
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the .357 Magnum is louder and kicks hard but the 125 grain Hydra Shok has been the best handgun load in gunfights according to Evan Marshall & Edwin Sanow for more than a decade...and the yardstick by which every other load and caliber has been measured...
"No honest man needs more than ten rounds in any gun." William Batterman Ruger
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Logansdad, the difference between the best .45 ACP and the best .357 magnum is insignificant. They are both pretty much in the mid to low 90% range of E&M's study of one shot stops. I think they may be separated by two or three percentage points, which is statistically the same as being neck and neck. But where they differ is in recoil (impact on the hands), blast (impact on the ears) and flash (impact on the eyes). The .357 magnum, in other words, is not nearly as shootable, and this will be a handicap in combat. Also, the .357 Magnum is a revolver round, and revolvers cannot hold up to severe conditions as well as a 1911. Dropped on a hard surface, and they will likely be out of service. Not so with a 1911. Dunked in a mud puddle and a revolver will likely sieze up. Not so with a 1911. Next, there is the issue of carryability and concealability. A gun is considerably less effective if you left it home because it was digging into your side, or because you could not adequately conceal it under your light clothing. A 1911 fits very nicely into an IWB, and is concealed with something as light as an untucked T-Shirt. There is no comparison in my book. Properly maintained, a high quality 1911 is also more reliable under all conditions than a revolver, and is more easily maintained.
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Just don't go forgetting that a .357 Magnum costs half as much as what a 1911A1 does...I'll put up with rude recoil and blast from a .357 if it allows me to spend the savings on a 12 gauge pump...now try comparing your 1911A1 to a 12 gauge and a .357 Magnum !
"No honest man needs more than ten rounds in any gun." William Batterman Ruger
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I'm saving up my money for a Kimber Classic Stainless that I can customize with scrimshaw grips..and the recoil and muzzle blast from the .45 ACP will be a nice change every now and then.. (I'll still keep my Smith .357s and Glock 9mm though)
"No honest man needs more than ten rounds in any gun." William Batterman Ruger
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Once you go 1911 you never go back.
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well it's hard to argue with the smallblock Chevy engine of the handgun world..but it can be done. That's an awful lot of money to spend on just one gun though..
"No honest man needs more than ten rounds in any gun." William Batterman Ruger
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Logansdad,
I bought the same gun as you but with the matte finish. You won't be disapointed.
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"Once you go 1911 you never go back."
Not exactly, I started with a 1911, have owned one since I was 21 and probably always will. I have owned a number of them and will probably buy many more until it's my turn to give up the ghost. Most days I have a Glock on my hip in .40 flavor. Been reading all the one shot stop stuff, it's all great to hear but personally, I'd rather know about 3 or 4 shot stops, cause if I have to do it, that will more than likely be the case. 9mm vs. .45? There is a debate that will never end. I know guys that carry both and I don't see where one of them really has any advantage over the others. As for being able to shoot 9mm faster, that advantage disappears with practice. A lot of 9's can carry more ammo but thats at the cost of added weight and bulk in gun design. I think the 9's real advantage is being able to squeeze into very small packages where the .380 used to be king. To each his own.
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I used to have 1911A1s. I think they are highly overrated swinging link dinosaurs..but I always sell them for more than I paid for them.
"No honest man needs more than ten rounds in any gun." William Batterman Ruger
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I have a very nice Colt MK IV Series 80 pistol that has been tricked out a bit. That being said I can still shoot better with my Glock 30 and Glock 21 than with my Colt. ps. I had the Colt first too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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Buzz, you must be doing something wrong. A light crisp single action trigger is lightyears better than any Glock trigger. If you practiced equally with both, you would do much better with the 1911.
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Glocks can be had with 2.5# aftermarket trigger kits. I am far from the only person that claims they can shoot better with a Glock than a 1911 style pistol. I am not dissing the 1911 pistols because I like them, I just prefer the Glock.
I would say that I have probably put 2000 rounds through the MK IV Series 80 and 2500 though the Glock 30. I can hit clay pigeons against the backstop at 35 yards pretty regularly with my G30. I cannot do that with my Colt.
Perhaps it is because the Glock just "fits" me better.
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Maybe so. I still find it amazing. Although, years ago when I was a double action revolver man all the way (Smith & Wessons), I tried transitioning to a Colt Mrk IV Series 70 and found that I could not shoot it as well as I could my revolvers in double action. I had gotten really good at holding the sight picture throughout the double action pull, and found the light, crisp pull on the Government Model disturbing. Took about a year to get over that. With proper trigger control, however, you cannot beat a 1911. Proof is the fact that you don't see a lot of Glocks beating 1911s in bullseye matches.
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They may not be too popular in bullseye matches but they win their fair share in stock gun action matches. Glock triggers are not for everyone but once you get used to them, they are no hinderence at shooting accurately.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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I personally feel that a light single action 1911 is easiest for a newcomer. I've seen some remarkable shooting with Glocks from people who've practiced with them. Don't mean to rattle anyone, and I am new here, but thats what I've seen.
Thanks, Max
BTW, I am a 1911 shooter first and foremost.
Last edited by Maxford3; 03/30/03.
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I agree w/ Buzz. I started w/ 1911's over 20 years ago and have some nice examples. I can shoot my Glock 21 and 30 better than any of my 1911's. The Glocks are just as reliable, controllable and accurate. I like the 1911, I just like the Glocks better. If I could only choose one handgun however, it would be neither of those. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
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Hawk,
This has got to be close to the champion of posts with the large number of lookers and responders.
Norm -
NRA Member Since 1966
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Thanks Norm, it was my intention to stimulate responses. At the time I started it, this section had been competely dead for weeks. Really got things rolling for a while there.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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We'll what I see is that many of you must be unaware that S&W is still making mighty fine wheelguns. That being true, why on earth do so many of you shoot those 1911s and plastic guns? My two most recent buys have been a 2.5" Model 66 and a 5" 8-shot PC 627. Seems like if you got yourself 6 or 8 rounds of .357 Magnum in your hand you don't need them jam-o-matics. Dennis <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
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Dennis, nice bit of spice there, but I own a lot of 1911s, and none of them jam. I have had at least five different revolvers (Colts, Rugers and S&Ws) sieze up while firing them at the range (and I used to do quite a lot of revolver shooting), which could have gotten me killed in a gun fight.
A reliable revolver is a great gun for home defense and for a companion while in the woods, but for everyday concealed carry, you cannot beat a nice slim reliable Government Model. Just fits in an IWB holster so nice that you hardly notice you have a gun, and isn't that the purpose, i.e., to have a powerful and reliable weapon with you at all times, and not feel the burden of it digging into your lower back like revolvers do?
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Campfire Kahuna
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Never owned a Jam-O-Matic, I do however have a few nice unstoppable 1911's!
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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Dennis,
I have a 8-shot 627 5" on which I've installed CTC laser grips. This is my night house gun along with the 12 gauge pump.
I've owned a number of S&W revolvers and 1911s of various makers. I've had jams with all. But in recent years I've had no problems with S&W revolvers at all.
I have, however, had jams with expensive Kimbers as well as other types of 1911. I believe 1911s can be made reliable but out of the box you'd better shoot a couple hundred rounds of the ammo you are going to carry to be sure.
However, my current Kimbers are stellar performers with all types of ammo.
I carry the new CorBon PowRBall ammo with its round nose it should be super reliable.
The biggest problem is the internal extractor which must be polished and tuned by a person who knows how to make the gun reliable.
I won't even go into the problems I had with a pair of ParaOrdnance 1911s that soon found other owners.
Norm -
NRA Member Since 1966
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My comments came from shooting IDPA for several years. There was never a match I shot in in which a 1911 didn't jam up. There was never a match in which a SIG or a Glock or a revolver did jam up. Dennis
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Dennis, accuracy tuned 1911s do tend to have reliability problems, but that's because accuracy is the priority, so tolerances are very close. It is also true that these days many manufacturors are using cheaper steels in their extractors, and not taking the time to propertly tune them at the factory, so often the extractor needs tuning right out of the box. It is also true that any given 1911 is generally going to work best with one weight and design of bullet. Unlike a revolver, an auto prefers some ammo over others. A properly made, set up and maintained 1911, however, is as reliable with its preferred ammo as any revolver. These days, however, you need to spend fairly big bucks to be sure to get one that's made right and tuned right, out of the box. That done, however, you have a weapon that is superior to anything else for concealed carry/combat.
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Right on Buzz, I have several (at least 6) 1911's from Colt and Para-Ord. I have several (at least 6) Glocks. I carried 1911's for well over a decade shooting I don't know how many rounds weekly. St that point in time I have many more 1911's including ones in 10mm. Once I found the Glock 30 I never looked back. Oh sure, I get new toys every now and then (picked up a Sig 229 in .357 sig about a year ago), but the G30 is what I carry by choice. I often drop down to a Keltec K40 40 S&W when concealability is an issue. The Glock just shoots where I point it. It's uncanny. Sure, I use the sights but as y'all know it is a lot quicker to get off the first shot when the sights are already line up. As far as caliber, In an ideal world I would pick the 10mm. Howver, in this world where ammo price and availability is an issue, I pick the .45 acp. I know, theoretically we should all be shooting the .357 sig, more ammo in a smaller package with ballistics better than a .357 magnum. Theoretically, that is. You just can't argue with 90+ years of experience and testimonials by many great shooters. I think that the reliability of making a big hole / getting a good hit is higher with the big bullet. Temporary wound cavities really don't count for much in my book, it's the permanent wound cavities that kill, the broken bones that stop the quickest. JMHO <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
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Offered in all sincerity - If you take the time to learn to shoot and you're a civilian, not military and not LEO, then this thread should have been called, "All you really need is a S&W K-Frame revolver, but keep all the rest cause they're Fun to shoot." Dennis
Last edited by DennisE; 05/18/03.
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Dennis, as Jeff Cooper says, the double action revolver is the perfect self defense tool for the person who is not into guns and will not spend much time mastering their weapon. That is not to say, however, that a well trained person cannot make exceptional use of a double action revolver for self defense, just that his full potential is much better served with a 1911 .45.
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Hawkeye: Like you I've probably read and enjoyed most of Jeff's columns and articles for many years. I never shoot less than 2 days/week. I've competed in IDPA and enjoyed it. None of this means I'm a hot shot or a hot dog with a handgun. In well over several hundred accounts (perhaps more) of civilian shootings I've read I recall few if any where the individual had to reload. Whether armed with a 1911 (which I actually do like and respect as a good choice) or a K-Frame I can't draw from concealment and shoot fast enough to get the first shot off if some fool is already covering me with his/her gun. If the idiot's gun isn't already pointed at me then with either a 1911 or a K-Frame if I don't lose my cool I've got a decent chance at drawing, and if need be firing and hitting him before he can do likewise to me. I think that it will make little difference whether I hit him with a well placed .357 Magnum JHP from a K-Frame or a .45 ACP JHP. I typically carry a SIG 245 or a S&W Model 66. I know how to use both of 'em. I don't feel undergunned. If I run into an outlaw gang of killers who are after my hide, I'm probably in deep [bleep] no matter which handgun I choose. Regards, Dennis
Last edited by DennisE; 05/18/03.
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I have to ring in on the side of the 45 ACP. Stopping power is better than with faster lighter bullets. I don't care if the bullet is leathel, as long as the BG is knocked down immediately. I recall a shooting in So Cal in which a suspect was hit 17 times with .38 and 9mm ball rounds. He of course died but it was almost 20 minutes from the time he was first struck. I want to put a suspect down with the first shot. And yes, I know that one can achieve a one shot kill with a light bullet. Many pros use a 22 and I lost a partner to a 25ACP. Still, in the long run a larger diameter is more effective. One must also consider what happens to a missed shot. A 357 will travel farther, thus possibly hitting an uninted target than a 45. Don't get me wrong, I carried a S&W Model 19 4" when autos were not allowed. It is a great weapon, but in an urban environment I would stick to the 45. Big, Slow, and Ugly will always prevail over light and fast. That's why I use big-bore leverguns for hunting. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> And just to stir the pot a little, for home defense isin't a light shotgun load the better choice? LeverMan Life is too short to use anything but a LeverGun!
Life is too short to use anything but a LeverGun!
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Leverman, you make some good points. Not only that, however, but you are more likely to hit your target with a .45 than with a .357 Magnum, especially on the second quick follow up shot.
Let me set the record straight, though. I have nothing against the double action revolver. I have and enjoy many Smith and Wesson and Colt revolvers, and a few of them are K frame .357 Mangums. I love the guns, and since I spent many years shooting hundreds of rounds per week developing the skills needed to shoot them well and fast, I would feel very well armed with one, but I don't carry one because I carry IWB, and it's just not a comfortable carry with a revolver. The 1911 is also quicker to the target from the draw, and quicker and more accurate on the follow up shot, in my opinion.
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Throw the rest away ? are you stoned ? You drug test now !
"No honest man needs more than ten rounds in any gun." William Batterman Ruger
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LD, it's for effect. What I mean is that you don't need the others, as the 1911 is the best. Naturally, you should sell all of your other handguns instead of actually throwing them away. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Probably against the law to do that anyway.
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It can be beat the Sig 229 or 239 or the Glock in .357 Sig calibers are proof of that and the .357 Sig stomps all over the .45ACP in terms of muzzle energy and hold more rounds to boot
"No honest man needs more than ten rounds in any gun." William Batterman Ruger
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Logansdad, get over it. The .45acp is the King of Combat. Period. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
NRA-Benefactor
TSRA-Life
"It's a terrible thing when governments send their young men to kill each other." Charles Byrne,WW2 Vet.
On the day Desert Storm began.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Not to be a pest but the .45 ACP never has been the King of Combat around the world, or among US LEO's and hasn't been King in the US Armed Forces for several decades It has however been King for many who are top players in gun game competitions. Dennis
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Dennis, when the professionals in the military or law enforcement, who are most likely to see a gunfight, pick a sidearm it is more often than not a 1911 .45 ACP. It has become almost standard for SWAT and hostage rescue teams. Why? Because when they need to stop someone from shooting back, they need to stop them NOW. The 1911 in .45 ACP is the best way to do that. Other designs were created primarily to increase safety in the hands of the minimally trained. Many would argue that they failed in that, but did manage to make a weapon which is less combat effective than the 1911 .45. When those who have the highest training are issued a side arm, it is very often the 1911 .45.
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It's interesting that the majority of SEALS today are chosing the SIG P226 9mm over their other permitted choice, the SOCOM Mk 23 .45 ACP. Also intersting that both the Masters and Expert class trophies in the Custom Defensive Pistol Division (usually thought of as the SA '1911' .45 ACP Division) at the 2003 IDPA Winter Championships were won by 2 guys shooting SIG P220STs. The 1911 in .45 ACP used to be one of the few good choices, now it is one of many good choices! Regards, Dennis
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You may find it "interesting," but I stand by what I said.
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Hawkeye: May our handguns of choice continue to provide each of us with much pleasure and protection! Dennis
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Wow Hawk. This thread sure has come a long way. I just wanted to be the 100th post to it and to thank you again for bringing it up in the first place. Your post was in part responsible for my getting my first 1911. I really must comment that I am completely pleased with mine and, while I won't throw my others away, I certainly now have a preference for the 1911. Great gun and great history to go with it.
B.I.C.
'tikka
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Wannatikka, I'm glad of it. I was tempted to be the 100th myself, but figured I should leave that great honor to someone else. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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Hawkeye That's some mighty fine preaching, Brother Hawkeye! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Prospector EVERY TUB HAS TO SIT ON ITS OWN BOTTOM
Prospector
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Prospector, can I hear an AMEN?
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Thread revival?  (Hawkeye was right!) Josh
Last edited by Joshua_M_Smith; 02/12/11.
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That's like saying there have been no good rifles sold since the 30-40 krag.
"wanna hear God laugh? Tell Him you have complete control now!"
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Nope... since the M1 Garand. And there haven't been!  It was the last great rifle...  The Springfield '03 was the last good bolt rifle.
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I remember that. For weeks there had been no action at all down here in Handguns, and I wanted to stir things up so I took an extreme position to stimulate discussion. Mostly true, though.
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I believe that a man who has a good 1911 pistol and knows how to use it well has the defensive handgun thing covered quite sufficiently. Having said that, I'm not about to get rid of my S&W DA revolvers. I'm funny that way... 
Last edited by TNrifleman; 02/12/11.
μολὼν λαβέ
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Having said that, I'm not about to get rid of my S&W DA revolvers.
Me neither.
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Anything w/a 96% one shot stop rating will do, just double tap em' and Your good. I dearly love an all steel 45 ACP,
ALL HAIL THE KING....45 ACP
Gunner
Trump Won!
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Campfire Ranger
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BCR, as the great Jeff Cooper said, "Whereas it is not very hard to imagine a good man with a Government Model .45 clearing a room of three or even four armed miscreants, doing so with a 9mm would be." If your gun's a .45, eight is more than enough. If your skill level is where it should be, any cartridge will do the job. Location, location, location! I carried a Sig P229 DAO with 12 round capacity 40 S&W and tritium sights. With me behind the trigger, I'd stack it up against the 45 Gov't model, though it is a fine cartridge/pistol combination.
"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life." (Prov 4:23)
Brother Keith
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If your skill level is where it should be, any cartridge will do the job. Location, location, location! I carried a Sig P229 DAO with 12 round capacity 40 S&W and tritium sights. With me behind the trigger, I'd stack it up against the 45 Gov't model, though it is a fine cartridge/pistol combination. Skill with your chosen weapon(s) is the critical factor in its effectiveness in a deadly force situation. Platform and caliber are secondary and tertiary considerations, at best. I know this because I analyze dozens of police shootings every year, and have access to detailed autopsy reports (including Xrays and autopsy photos), crime scene photos, statements by the principals and witnesses, the works. Like just about everybody else who has experience in this line of work, I've come to the conclusion that any police service caliber/sidearm is capable of ending any given gunfight swiftly and successfully, and any police service caliber/sidearm is also capable of going completely sideways with bad outcomes all around. The difference between not only surviving but winnning a deadly force situation is your ability to put bullets into the vital zones of your opponent's body efficiently (speed + accuracy). I have within the last two years reviewed two police shootings where the officers, armed with .45 ACP pistols & ammo, failed to successfully win the fight. Why? Poor shot placement. In both cases their departments had gone to the big .45 because they thought it was a Sure Thing. Officers went into action believing that they had the Magic Bullet, and all they had to do was point the gun in the bad guy's general direction, pull the trigger, and the bad guy would be vaporized. WRONG!! You still have to put the bullets where it counts! One felon absorbed FIVE 230 gr Speer GDHP's, spent 3 months in ICU (at taxpayer expense!), and is back on the street now. In the same time frame, I've got dozens of successsful gunfight wins in my files where the officers used 9mm pistols, and even more who used .40 S&W. Sure, there were failures in some of those, too, but you can't blame the caliber: it was poor shooting in every case. My department issues/mandates the SIG P220 in .45 ACP. It's a great pistol, and I don't mind being required to carry it when I go out on a SWAT call. But I've done enough competitive shooting with all kinds of guns and calibers and have killed deer and hogs with 9mm's, 357's, 40 S&W's and various 44's and 45's to be comfortable with any serviceable handgun in any of those calibers. Why? Because I know where to place my shots, and I practice with my handguns to be sure I can reliably put the bullets where I want them to go. As for the Holy High and Mighty 1911A1 and its many modern clones... as much as I love it, and in fact more often than not will be found carrying one, I don't consider it the be-all and end-all of pistols. It's a high-maintenance gun, so people who tend to leave their guns unfired and/or uncleaned are gonna experience breakdowns. Don't believe me? Talk to the department armorers for any department that issues/mandates the 1911. They have to maintain a large inventory of spare pistols to keep their officers armed while their 1911's are in the shop for repairs and extra maintenance (Albuquerque PD is the dept I most recently talked with about this situation). Jeff Cooper loved the 1911, but he asserted a serious 1911 user (one who shoots regularly, and doesn't just carry it around) must have at least 3 1911's. One to carry, one spare for when the primary breaks down, and one in the gunsmith's shop. And don't think that just because you've got a all-the-bells-and-whistles modern 1911 clone your risks of breakdowns is lower; in fact, due to the tighter tolerances of our Springfield, Kimber, 10-8, and custom 1911's, they're actually more prone to stoppages in dirty/wet conditions than a plain-jane G.I. 1911A1. The 1911 is an expert's or enthusiast's gun. Its manual of arms is more complex than a Glock or SIG or M&P. Its maintenance schedule is likewise more detailed and must be performed more frequently. By way of contrast, I offer the example of my friend H.I., who trains Special Forces troops almost fulltime, and who served for almost 2 decades as a a SF soldier, cop, and bodyguard in Africa. H.I. has shot and killed more people than most of us can imagine, and many of them in unimaginably difficult environments. His personal choice for a handgun is a Glock 21, because he's managed to break every other model of .45 ACP pistol. Like I said, I carry 1911's more than any other pistol. Springfield, Kimber, and Colt 1911's live at my house and get shot a LOT. But I also have a SIG P220 and a Glock 21, and if I was going to just keep one .45 for serious work over an extended period of time, it wouldn't be a 1911. Fortunately, though, I have the time, tools, and training to maintain my 1911's to keep them in good working order. Because of that, and because I happen to find Slabsides fits my hand well and shoots very well for me, I choose to carry a 1911 off-duty more often than all my other pistols combined. But throw away the rest, TRH? Nonononononono.
Last edited by DocRocket; 02/12/11.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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Doc! I was wondering if you were going to jump in here!
Gonna go get some coffee and read your response. (Took a nap).
Josh
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Hawkeye, yep, those were the days, weren't they? Makes me wish sometimes that things don't change. Sometimes, some of us get stupid once and piss off a bunch of folks, and others, well, I just think a place can get too big sometimes too.
I do hope this thread stands as an example of how to argue.
You, Sir, are Da Man!
Josh
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Oh, but EC, as a very wise individual once said, "Whereas a .357 caliber bullet may expand, a .45 never shrinks." Why do you suppose that elite tactical units almost always insist on a .45, and not a .357 Sig or Magnum? There are certain circumstances which hinder bullet expansion, and these units require a big hole ever time, without exception. That's were the .45 shines. It's 230 grain bullet provides planty of momentum for pushing that big fat slug deep, and the hole it makes is always at least .45 caliber. With something like the .230 grain Hydrashok, the hole can be even bigger and uglier, while penetration (due to good weight retention) remains perfectly adequate. Just thought that I'd point out that the Elite Tactical Units that I deal with everyday out here in Afghanistan do indeed have 357sig's mags, 9mm's, and 45's. Personally, and that's all this argument actually boils down to (personal preference) I'll take the 357 over the 45 if I had a choice. All things being the same, you can carry more rounds per mag in 357 than you can in 45 and they both kill with equal efficiency. But alas, this thread wasn't about caliber as much as it was about the Gun itself. I hold to the fact that the BEST combat and CCW gun out there is the one you PERSONALLY are most proficient and comfortable with. Personally, I don't like the 1911's and will never own another one, but that's just me.
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams
Turdlike, by default.
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And there are people like me, who love the 1911, and would never not own one, but who can't hit [bleep] with it.
So, no, I can't throw the rest away.
- Tom
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Hawkeye, yep, those were the days, weren't they? Makes me wish sometimes that things don't change. Sometimes, some of us get stupid once and piss off a bunch of folks, and others, well, I just think a place can get too big sometimes too.
I do hope this thread stands as an example of how to argue.
You, Sir, are Da Man!
Josh +1 Josh.
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Doc's reply is interesting for sure.
I was at a training facility one time in 04 (I think) and struck up a conversation with another guy in the bunkhouse. He was signed up for the same training I was. We had been watching each other's shooting throughout the course of the first day. It was apparent he could drive a gun pretty well. Ends up he was one of the primary shooters featured in the movie BlackHawk down.
I put two and two together and knew who he was, just had never met him. Anyways, his perspective was along the line of Doc's friend. He loved 1911's but chose to carry a G30. He ran a G30 the whole week and ran it well.
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL. The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world. The website is up and running!www.lostriverammocompany.com
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And there are people like me, who love the 1911, and would never not own one, but who can't hit [bleep] with it.
So, no, I can't throw the rest away.
- Tom
I can't fault anyone for liking them. They are indeed classics! Just a classic that isn't for me is all. Again, personal preference, and I like that many like yourself like things that I don't. Variety is a spice of life!
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams
Turdlike, by default.
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If I were going to carry a 1911A1 in a defensive role, I would be as good a shot with it as I am with the Sigarms P229, and that may not take too long to accomplish. Never shot much competitively, just shot to win in the game of life . . . . whole 'nother attitude. TLee and ltpowell, Mac84 and some others know the drill. Going home at the end of the tour is where it's at. Heard a quote from a black patrol officer in Detroit once that went like this -- "Him givin' me jive with his 45 don't beat me shootin' straight with my 38."
"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life." (Prov 4:23)
Brother Keith
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Good post and thread! I've only shot a few friend's 1911s. Very nice and I liked them alot! Shot one or two polymer 45acps, they were nice too. For semi-auto, I'm coming around to liking the 45acp the best. However, the price of 1911's (I'm southpaw and need ambi-dex controls) are a bit out of my price range. I can get a few revolvers, I like Rugers, for the price of one 1911. I love the 357mag revolvers. Very versatile and practical handgun especially when considering the ability to shoot 38specials. I also like their "presence" factor when at the range, lol! I remember my last trip to the range. Father and son line up next to me to shot their subcompatc 9mm Khars, while at the time I'm just plinking with my 38specials. Then I reload with 357magnum loads Let's just say that I got their attention when I touched those babies off Gotta love that!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The funny thing is that everything I have read regarding the Marhall-Sanow reports etc. have not proclaimed the .45 ACP #1 in one shot kills as you so boldly proclaim. Seems to me there is something called a uhhh.. .356 no no that's not it umm... .358 no no that's the bullet diameter oh yeah it's the .357 Magnum. Yeah that's the one. 125 grain jacketed hollowpoints. Does that ring a bell? SHow me your proof that the .45 ACP is the king of one shot stops!
Don't get me wrong I love my Kimber in .45 but lets try to stay factual here in the real world. Sean Marshall/Sanow's BS is a fraud of gargantuan proportions and have been proven to be FULL OF BS by D. Martin Fackler, Duncan MacPherson and others What a joke those two are and that is why they have fadeded away
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Oh, but EC, as a very wise individual once said, "Whereas a .357 caliber bullet may expand, a .45 never shrinks." Why do you suppose that elite tactical units almost always insist on a .45, and not a .357 Sig or Magnum? There are certain circumstances which hinder bullet expansion, and these units require a big hole ever time, without exception. That's were the .45 shines. It's 230 grain bullet provides planty of momentum for pushing that big fat slug deep, and the hole it makes is always at least .45 caliber. With something like the .230 grain Hydrashok, the hole can be even bigger and uglier, while penetration (due to good weight retention) remains perfectly adequate. Just thought that I'd point out that the Elite Tactical Units that I deal with everyday out here in Afghanistan do indeed have 357sig's mags, 9mm's, and 45's. Personally, and that's all this argument actually boils down to (personal preference) I'll take the 357 over the 45 if I had a choice. All things being the same, you can carry more rounds per mag in 357 than you can in 45 and they both kill with equal efficiency. But alas, this thread wasn't about caliber as much as it was about the Gun itself. I hold to the fact that the BEST combat and CCW gun out there is the one you PERSONALLY are most proficient and comfortable with. Personally, I don't like the 1911's and will never own another one, but that's just me. A high capacity 1911 can hold 14 in the mag and 1 the the chamber for a total of 15. I like those odds
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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A high capacity 1911 can hold 14 in the mag and 1 the the chamber for a total of 15. I like those odds
I've got an H&K USP-45 with a couple of double stacked mags. Twelve rounders, which makes for thirteen round loaded up. Of course there are also ten round mags for 1911s if you want to stick that into your night stand gun.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I keep an 8 round mag in my carry 1911 and carry a spare 10 rounder just in case 9 ain't enough
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Now correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the "A1" designation WWII and has since been dumped long ago by most if not all manufactures? Oh well, RH's title to this thread could very well be right for defensive use if....... The stock 1911A1s weren't such a POS and 4" DA .357's had never been produced. Now we'll see where this goes! CB
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The stock 1911A1s weren't such a POS and 4" DA .357's had never been produced. Now we'll see where this goes! CB ![[Linked Image]](http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/troll.gif) ![[Linked Image]](http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/stirring.gif)
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Interesting historical fact. The first combat the 1911 saw was when we chased Pancho Villa back into Mexico. Perhaps we ought to use it to do it all over again.
The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
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Campfire Kahuna
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Interesting historical fact. The first combat the 1911 saw was when we chased Pancho Villa back into Mexico. Perhaps we ought to use it to do it all over again. I'll drink to that Sir!
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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Campfire Kahuna
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Still have one that I carry BTW: ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/TLEEF/GUNSMITHING/1911002.jpg)
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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Still have one that I carry BTW: Me Also even ![[Linked Image]](http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz14/Arch48/IMG_1521.jpg)
You better be afraid of a ghost!!
"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops
Woody
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The_Real_Browneye did better trolling like this, years ago, before he followed Barak down the rabbit hole, and through the looking glass.
BTW - the 1911 remains one of the pinnacle designs. I'll never be without one.
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Once you go 1911 you never go back. ........except when you do....grin.
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Logansdad, the difference between the best .45 ACP and the best .357 magnum is insignificant...... Just like the difference between the 45ACP, and the 9mm or 40SW.....grin
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They are all marginal manstoppers.
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If you hit the main pump station, or CPU, they all work about the same.
If you miss the vitals, they all work about the same.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Still have one that I carry BTW: Full sized one of those headed my way as soon at our taxes come back.
The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
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It's interesting that the majority of SEALS today are chosing the SIG P226 9mm over their other permitted choice, the SOCOM Mk 23 .45 ACP. Also intersting that both the Masters and Expert class trophies in the Custom Defensive Pistol Division (usually thought of as the SA '1911' .45 ACP Division) at the 2003 IDPA Winter Championships were won by 2 guys shooting SIG P220STs. The 1911 in .45 ACP used to be one of the few good choices, now it is one of many good choices! Regards, Dennis i always find these threads interesting because i never so many people on this forum had brown eyes. Oh, wait a moment! Maybe they have brown eyes because its STACKED so high, so to speak. Or put it another way, so full of the brown stuff. I love 1911's and the .45acp, but it sure aint the only game in town. the sig 220 is in many respects a superior pistol. And .45acp aint' the only caliber any more either.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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If your skill level is where it should be, any cartridge will do the job. Location, location, location! I carried a Sig P229 DAO with 12 round capacity 40 S&W and tritium sights. With me behind the trigger, I'd stack it up against the 45 Gov't model, though it is a fine cartridge/pistol combination. Skill with your chosen weapon(s) is the critical factor in its effectiveness in a deadly force situation. Platform and caliber are secondary and tertiary considerations, at best. I know this because I analyze dozens of police shootings every year, and have access to detailed autopsy reports (including Xrays and autopsy photos), crime scene photos, statements by the principals and witnesses, the works. Like just about everybody else who has experience in this line of work, I've come to the conclusion that any police service caliber/sidearm is capable of ending any given gunfight swiftly and successfully, and any police service caliber/sidearm is also capable of going completely sideways with bad outcomes all around. The difference between not only surviving but winnning a deadly force situation is your ability to put bullets into the vital zones of your opponent's body efficiently (speed + accuracy). I have within the last two years reviewed two police shootings where the officers, armed with .45 ACP pistols & ammo, failed to successfully win the fight. Why? Poor shot placement. In both cases their departments had gone to the big .45 because they thought it was a Sure Thing. Officers went into action believing that they had the Magic Bullet, and all they had to do was point the gun in the bad guy's general direction, pull the trigger, and the bad guy would be vaporized. WRONG!! You still have to put the bullets where it counts! One felon absorbed FIVE 230 gr Speer GDHP's, spent 3 months in ICU (at taxpayer expense!), and is back on the street now. In the same time frame, I've got dozens of successsful gunfight wins in my files where the officers used 9mm pistols, and even more who used .40 S&W. Sure, there were failures in some of those, too, but you can't blame the caliber: it was poor shooting in every case. My department issues/mandates the SIG P220 in .45 ACP. It's a great pistol, and I don't mind being required to carry it when I go out on a SWAT call. But I've done enough competitive shooting with all kinds of guns and calibers and have killed deer and hogs with 9mm's, 357's, 40 S&W's and various 44's and 45's to be comfortable with any serviceable handgun in any of those calibers. Why? Because I know where to place my shots, and I practice with my handguns to be sure I can reliably put the bullets where I want them to go. As for the Holy High and Mighty 1911A1 and its many modern clones... as much as I love it, and in fact more often than not will be found carrying one, I don't consider it the be-all and end-all of pistols. It's a high-maintenance gun, so people who tend to leave their guns unfired and/or uncleaned are gonna experience breakdowns. Don't believe me? Talk to the department armorers for any department that issues/mandates the 1911. They have to maintain a large inventory of spare pistols to keep their officers armed while their 1911's are in the shop for repairs and extra maintenance (Albuquerque PD is the dept I most recently talked with about this situation). Jeff Cooper loved the 1911, but he asserted a serious 1911 user (one who shoots regularly, and doesn't just carry it around) must have at least 3 1911's. One to carry, one spare for when the primary breaks down, and one in the gunsmith's shop. And don't think that just because you've got a all-the-bells-and-whistles modern 1911 clone your risks of breakdowns is lower; in fact, due to the tighter tolerances of our Springfield, Kimber, 10-8, and custom 1911's, they're actually more prone to stoppages in dirty/wet conditions than a plain-jane G.I. 1911A1. The 1911 is an expert's or enthusiast's gun. Its manual of arms is more complex than a Glock or SIG or M&P. Its maintenance schedule is likewise more detailed and must be performed more frequently. By way of contrast, I offer the example of my friend H.I., who trains Special Forces troops almost fulltime, and who served for almost 2 decades as a a SF soldier, cop, and bodyguard in Africa. H.I. has shot and killed more people than most of us can imagine, and many of them in unimaginably difficult environments. His personal choice for a handgun is a Glock 21, because he's managed to break every other model of .45 ACP pistol. Like I said, I carry 1911's more than any other pistol. Springfield, Kimber, and Colt 1911's live at my house and get shot a LOT. But I also have a SIG P220 and a Glock 21, and if I was going to just keep one .45 for serious work over an extended period of time, it wouldn't be a 1911. Fortunately, though, I have the time, tools, and training to maintain my 1911's to keep them in good working order. Because of that, and because I happen to find Slabsides fits my hand well and shoots very well for me, I choose to carry a 1911 off-duty more often than all my other pistols combined. But throw away the rest, TRH? Nonononononono. Doc you said that rather well. It reminds me of a S.F. guy i was talking to a year or so ago that had spent quite a bit of time in the stans. He started with a beretta, government issued, switched to a hi power, and ended up and prefered a glock 17 with jacketed hollow points. Why, because they always worked in the mud.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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Oh, but EC, as a very wise individual once said, "Whereas a .357 caliber bullet may expand, a .45 never shrinks." Why do you suppose that elite tactical units almost always insist on a .45, and not a .357 Sig or Magnum? There are certain circumstances which hinder bullet expansion, and these units require a big hole ever time, without exception. That's were the .45 shines. It's 230 grain bullet provides planty of momentum for pushing that big fat slug deep, and the hole it makes is always at least .45 caliber. With something like the .230 grain Hydrashok, the hole can be even bigger and uglier, while penetration (due to good weight retention) remains perfectly adequate. Just thought that I'd point out that the Elite Tactical Units that I deal with everyday out here in Afghanistan do indeed have 357sig's mags, 9mm's, and 45's. Personally, and that's all this argument actually boils down to (personal preference) I'll take the 357 over the 45 if I had a choice. All things being the same, you can carry more rounds per mag in 357 than you can in 45 and they both kill with equal efficiency. But alas, this thread wasn't about caliber as much as it was about the Gun itself. I hold to the fact that the BEST combat and CCW gun out there is the one you PERSONALLY are most proficient and comfortable with. Personally, I don't like the 1911's and will never own another one, but that's just me. A high capacity 1911 can hold 14 in the mag and 1 the the chamber for a total of 15. I like those odds and i have one of those too, a springfield xd. loaded with two spare clips it is a real good reason to wear suspenders.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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And there are people like me, who love the 1911, and would never not own one, but who can't hit [bleep] with it.
So, no, I can't throw the rest away.
- Tom
I can't fault anyone for liking them. They are indeed classics! Just a classic that isn't for me is all. Again, personal preference, and I like that many like yourself like things that I don't. Variety is a spice of life! Doc: I like having a 1911, the way some people like having a Luger. I take it to the range and I punch paper with it, although not very well. But there's just something very satisfying about the chunka-chunka motion, and the great pumpkin rolling out the end, and the nostalgia and daydreams and such. That's all. I don't mix romance and business, and I have other things for business. - Tom
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Campfire Sage
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Interesting historical fact. The first combat the 1911 saw was when we chased Pancho Villa back into Mexico. Perhaps we ought to use it to do it all over again. I'll drink to that Sir! Me too.
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Campfire Sage
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Once you go 1911 you never go back. ........except when you do....grin. Guilty. I've carried a full sized, all steel, 1911 off and on since the early 1980s, without problem, sometimes for years on end uninterrupted. But I guess I'm getting old, and my skin a bit more sensitive, because last summer I developed a skin irritation on the opposite side of may waist band. I was forced to give it up for a lighter gun. Might try it again in the future, though. I'm thinking of potential solutions.
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Campfire Ranger
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When you have discovered perfection (which I did almost 30 years ago), you need search no further. The Government Model .45 is the ideal gun for personal defense at home and carried concealed. It is chambered for the most perfect of combat rounds, the .45 ACP, rated number one in one shot stops, and known the world over as a top-notch fight stopper. It's recoil is mild enough for all but the most recoil-sensative to master, and it is so nice and slim that it fits perfectly in an IWB holster, easily concealed with a light jacket, sweater or untucked shirt. If you require lightweight and compact, there are aluminum-framed commander-length models available. The Government Model .45 is also increadibly rugged and reliable, assuming 1) you don't buy a bargain basement rendition, and 2) you learn proper maintenance. So throw away all of your Berettas, Sigs, and whatnots. All you need is a Colt .45 Automatic. P.S., Just thought I'd try to liven up the conversation around here. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> All I can add to that is 45 SEMI-Automatic & AMEN !!!
"I never thought I'd live to see the day that a U.S. president would raise an army to invade his own country."
Robert E. Lee
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Campfire Sage
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When you have discovered perfection (which I did almost 30 years ago), you need search no further. The Government Model .45 is the ideal gun for personal defense at home and carried concealed. It is chambered for the most perfect of combat rounds, the .45 ACP, rated number one in one shot stops, and known the world over as a top-notch fight stopper. It's recoil is mild enough for all but the most recoil-sensative to master, and it is so nice and slim that it fits perfectly in an IWB holster, easily concealed with a light jacket, sweater or untucked shirt. If you require lightweight and compact, there are aluminum-framed commander-length models available. The Government Model .45 is also increadibly rugged and reliable, assuming 1) you don't buy a bargain basement rendition, and 2) you learn proper maintenance. So throw away all of your Berettas, Sigs, and whatnots. All you need is a Colt .45 Automatic. P.S., Just thought I'd try to liven up the conversation around here. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> All I can add to that is 45 SEMI-Automatic & AMEN !!! I guess they will have to change the name of the cartridge it fires, then. Since 1911 (and even a few years before), it's been called .45 ACP, i.e., Automatic Colt Pistol.
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For those of us who can't make up their mind between a revolver or a 1911. There is a solution to the problem. It is designated as the S&W Model 625. It is a revolver which fires the 45 ACP cartridge and then you have the best of both worlds. You can have target sights and trigger right out of the box, as well as the reliability of a revolver. No stovepipes or jams, no matter if you shoot HP or cast lead. If a round doesn't fire you only need to pull the trigger to get a fresh round under the hammer.
whelennut
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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Campfire Ranger
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whelenut... funny you should mention it... I recently acquired a Model 625-4. This is my third 45 ACP Model 625 (both of its predecessors are long gone in other gun trade/buy/deals) in that caliber. I probably will keep this one, just because it's fun to have and shoot. Although I can't imagine carrying it when I have N-frame revolvers in more versatile chamberings. I have a Model 25 and a Model 625 Mountain Gun both chambered in 45 Colt, and a Model 29 and Model 629 Mountain Gun chambered in 44 Mag. If I'm gonna carry a roscoe that big, I'm gonna want it carry full-power loads, not those little 45 ACP buggers.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Loaded with 255/260 grain flat point hard cast at 900 to 1000 FPS those little 45 ACP buggers wil put a lot of hurt on any target
I know that you don't believe that there is any difference between a 45 ACP and a 357 mag in gun fights, but my hunting experience with both tell me something different and that is why I make mine a properly loade 45
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Loaded with 255/260 grain flat point hard cast at 900 to 1000 FPS those little 45 ACP buggers wil put a lot of hurt on any target
One word... pressure. For me, I'm throwing nothing away. And I am for sure not gonna beat a good firearm to death with over-pressure loads. The proper tool for the proper job.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Loaded with 255/260 grain flat point hard cast at 900 to 1000 FPS those little 45 ACP buggers wil put a lot of hurt on any target
One word... pressure. For me, I'm throwing nothing away. And I am for sure not gonna beat a good firearm to death with over-pressure loads. The proper tool for the proper job. What about pressure? If you notice I replied to a post where the cartirdge is being used in a revolver and as suck can easily digest the pressure. Infact 1 of my loading manuels list heavier loads for the 45 acp in revolver nad has seperate load data for the semi auto guns
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Sure, using the .45ACP rimmed in a revolver is a better platform for the heavies at max velocity.
But the gol-durn thread is about 1911's.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Sure, using the .45ACP rimmed in a revolver is a better platform for the heavies at max velocity.
But the gol-durn thread is about 1911's.
The 45 ACP is a beeter way to go with moon clips, faster reloads 1911's can me adjusted to handel the pressure ie, 45 Super and Rowland. The rowland operates at a rather high pressure
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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When heavy lifting needs to be done, it should be done with the proper tool. The hot loaded 1911 ain't that tool.
But to each their own.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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When heavy lifting needs to be done, it should be done with the proper tool. The hot loaded 1911 ain't that tool.But to each their own. Says who, you?
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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I'm quite certain I am not alone in understanding that fact.
El' Jefe NEVER promoted heavies at max velocity. NEVER.
Notice I am NOT saying the standard .45ACP is insufficient for its intended use, human combat.
Hot rod them all you want.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I'm quite certain I am not alone in understanding that fact.El' Jefe NEVER promoted heavies at max velocity. NEVER.
Notice I am NOT saying the standard .45ACP is insufficient for its intended use, human combat.
Hot rod them all you want.
The problem is you don't understand. It is no trick to ensure that the lock up on a 1911 stays locked as long as the pivot link with allow and to install an 18.5 pound recoil spring and shoot 45 Supers. I shoot 45 Super in my 1911's with this method and experience ZERO problems a 255/160 grain bullet at near 1100 FPS will leave a mark
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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You got it half right THR. For ME the most versatile handgun is the 1911 in 10mm. Properly sprung it is easy to shoot with 180 gr JHP's at 1150 fps. Flat shooting, excellent SD, an honest 100 yard pistol on your hip. ![[Linked Image]](http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o196/rkamp_111/IMG_0017-1.jpg)
Last edited by rkamp; 02/13/11.
"Knowledge is good"
� Emil Faber
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Yep the 10mm works just fine in a 1911 even with it's 30,000+ PSI operating pressure
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Sure, using the .45ACP rimmed in a revolver is a better platform for the heavies at max velocity.
But the gol-durn thread is about 1911's.
![[Linked Image]](http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd264/jimk55359/Dad2011006.jpg) With full moon clips you don't need the rimmed cases. I thought the goldurn thread was about .45 ACP. With 5.5 grs of Unique and a 244 gr. hard cast flat nose I am getting 822 fps from a four inch barrel. Not maximum but a safe shootable load that will tip over bowling pins and whatever. No stovepipes ever! No feeding issues and clips are about a buck apiece! I don't need to defend myself if I am 100 yds away from the target according to the State Law I have to pay heed to. My house isn't that big anyway. I can defend myself while waiting for the coroner to show up.
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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Campfire Ranger
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I'm quite certain I am not alone in understanding that fact.El' Jefe NEVER promoted heavies at max velocity. NEVER.
Notice I am NOT saying the standard .45ACP is insufficient for its intended use, human combat.
Hot rod them all you want.
The problem is you don't understand. It is no trick to ensure that the lock up on a 1911 stays locked as long as the pivot link with allow and to install an 18.5 pound recoil spring and shoot 45 Supers. I shoot 45 Super in my 1911's with this method and experience ZERO problems a 255/160 grain bullet at near 1100 FPS will leave a mark I too shoot 45 Super for hunting applications. Nothing wrong with the modification if you know what you're doing and like JWP you use the proper spring sets. I use a 28# recoil spring in mine. Shoot 45 Super with ACP spring weights, NO THANK YOU.
"I never thought I'd live to see the day that a U.S. president would raise an army to invade his own country."
Robert E. Lee
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Side question are those taurus pt 1911's worth a damn? Or fall in the you get what you pay for category
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Loaded with 255/260 grain flat point hard cast at 900 to 1000 FPS those little 45 ACP buggers wil put a lot of hurt on any target
I know that you don't believe that there is any difference between a 45 ACP and a 357 mag in gun fights, but my hunting experience with both tell me something different and that is why I make mine a properly loaded 45
I've shot a fair number of critters with both 357's and 45's (and 9mm's and 10mm's and 44's and...) and can't say I've shot enough of 'em to make a proper scientific sampling. I've had deer drop DRT from a 9mm, and deer that ran 100 yards with the heart shot out with a 1 oz. rifled slug and with a .308 Win 165 gr Partition. That doesn't mean 9mm is a harder-killing cartridge than a rifled slug or a .308, it's just three individual shooting results.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Dropping an animal at the crack of the shot is about bullet placement, but a 45 gives a greater physical reaction to the hit in my experience. Shoot an armadillo with a 357 and a large hole is the result. Shoot one with a 45 and a large hole is blown and the animal is physical moved like he was kicked. Shoot a deer in the rib cage with a 357 and it will kill him just fine, but use a 45 and the ribs push in like a heavyweight boxer just landed a body punch. Death is about the same in both cases but I like the reaction that I get from a 45 over smaller bores
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Regular
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Side question are those taurus pt 1911's worth a damn? Or fall in the you get what you pay for category With the Taurus PT 1911 you get more than you pay for. The gun has been around since 2005 and has an excellent reliability record. In either stainless or blue it is an excellent choice for someone looking for a full-size 1911, but who doesn't want to bust the bank buying a similarly spec'd Kimber, S&W, Colt, etc. Two things, in my opinion, make the gun an outstanding buy: (1) it is a dimensionally accurate copy of the 1911, which means any aftermarket parts that will fit a Colt, will fit the Taurus, something that can not be said for many of the reasonably priced 1911s out there; (2) the Taurus PT 1911 comes out of the box with Heinie two-dot "Straight Eight" sights, which I find to be just about the fastest sights I've ever used. For the money (RRP $759.00) I don't think you can go wrong with the Taurus.
Last edited by Old_Writer; 02/13/11.
Life is hard. It's even harder when you're stupid. --John Wayne
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The problem is you don't understand. It is no trick to ensure that the lock up on a 1911 stays locked as long as the pivot link with allow and to install an 18.5 pound recoil spring and shoot 45 Supers. I shoot 45 Super in my 1911's with this method and experience ZERO problems a 255/160 grain bullet at near 1100 FPS will leave a mark
185gr +P at 1000+fps is plenty hard enough on the average 1911A1 frame and slide. Push the 255gr to the same speeds and I don't care WHAT spring setup you run, you will witness excessive wear. The platform will do it, I am fully aware. The 1911/A1 is not something that is new to me. Like I said, run yours as you wish.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Exessive wear??? My I wonder how they ever got a 10mm to work on a 1911 frame with pressure over 30,000 PSI
The Buffalo Bore 45 Super 255 grain load at 1090 FPS is only 21,500 PSI
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Sure, using the .45ACP rimmed in a revolver is a better platform for the heavies at max velocity.
But the gol-durn thread is about 1911's.
With full moon clips you don't need the rimmed cases. I thought the goldurn thread was about .45 ACP. With 5.5 grs of Unique and a 244 gr. hard cast flat nose I am getting 822 fps from a four inch barrel. Not maximum but a safe shootable load that will tip over bowling pins and whatever. No stovepipes ever! No feeding issues and clips are about a buck apiece! I don't need to defend myself if I am 100 yds away from the target according to the State Law I have to pay heed to. My house isn't that big anyway. I can defend myself while waiting for the coroner to show up. Good argument against "throwing everything else away" for the 1911A1.
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Yes. Excessive wear. Firsthand experience with a Series 80 that slopped frame rail tolerance after only 200 +/- rounds. Not a lightweight alloy frame version either. Push heavies with max loads in the 1911/A1 and time will tell the truth.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Sure, using the .45ACP rimmed in a revolver is a better platform for the heavies at max velocity.
But the gol-durn thread is about 1911's.
With full moon clips you don't need the rimmed cases. I thought the goldurn thread was about .45 ACP. With 5.5 grs of Unique and a 244 gr. hard cast flat nose I am getting 822 fps from a four inch barrel. Not maximum but a safe shootable load that will tip over bowling pins and whatever. No stovepipes ever! No feeding issues and clips are about a buck apiece! I don't need to defend myself if I am 100 yds away from the target according to the State Law I have to pay heed to. My house isn't that big anyway. I can defend myself while waiting for the coroner to show up. Good argument against "throwing everything else away" for the 1911A1. He only has 6 shots before a reload is required. A good argument for the 1911
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Yes. Excessive wear. Firsthand experience with a Series 80 that slopped frame rail tolerance after only 200 +/- rounds. Not a lightweight alloy frame version either. Push heavies with max loads in the 1911/A1 and time will tell the truth. Sounds like the lockup was fitted poorly from the get go. I have shot mine for decades without a hitch and I do not shoot standard loads, since I like a bit more punch in mine
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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He only has 6 shots before a reload is required. A good argument for the 1911
Thought you only needed one round of the super duper armadillo kicking .45 Super!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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He only has 6 shots before a reload is required. A good argument for the 1911
Thought you only needed one round of the super duper armadillo kicking .45 Super! Might be 9 of them, I'd like to finnish the job without the need to reload
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Sounds like the lockup was fitted poorly from the get go. I have shot mine for decades without a hitch and I do not shoot standard loads, since I like a bit more punch in mine
Nope. Factory fitted gun. Totally the fault of excessively hot loads with the "recommended" poundage aftermarket spring and guiderod. Hopefully yours is working well for your chosen loading. And continues to do so. Some 1911/A1's simply will not perform well stoked hard.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Sounds like the lockup was fitted poorly from the get go. I have shot mine for decades without a hitch and I do not shoot standard loads, since I like a bit more punch in mine
Nope. Factory fitted gun. Totally the fault of excessively hot loads with the "recommended" poundage aftermarket spring and guiderod. Hopefully yours is working well for your chosen loading. And continues to do so. Some 1911/A1's simply will not perform well stoked hard. I've seen a number of factory fitted 1911's that did not stay locked up as long as the pivot link would allow. The factory did not take the time to fit them properly, many people mistakenly blame the wear on the loads. The first thing that I do with any 1911 that I acquire is to make sure that the lock up is as long as possible while still using the pivot link. If the lock up is as long as possible it doesn't take a super heavy spring and any so called 1911 smith that doewn't reconize this fact I stay away from A guide rod is a waste of money and of no real practical use IMHO&E
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Campfire 'Bwana
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If the lock up is as long as possible this allows for the pressure to subside a bit before the breach unlocks which reduces slide velocity. I do not ling 22 pounds springs as they slam the slide into battery with to enough force as to knock the pistol below the line of sight and batter the pistol more than necessary.
I also do not deal with any smith that wants to control slide velocity by only installing a stronger spring
I've been shooting 1911's over 36 years and have a lot of experience with them some learned the hard way and have carried one regularly for as long
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Don't forget to discuss compensators.
Sounds like you got it all figured out. Have fun running heavies at max velocities.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Don't forget to discuss compensators.
Sounds like you got it all figured out. Have fun running heavies at max velocities. Since I don't use compensator's on my 1911's I have no experience with them. I doubt that I have "it all figured out" but I have enough figured out to shoot my 1911's over a long period of time with thousands of +P loads and 45 Supers without wearing them out Yes I will enjoy shooting the hotter loads especially the 45 Super 255 grain hard cast at 1090 FPS that leaves a mark
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I recently shot my qualification for CCW using both a .45 ACP revolver and semi-auto (customized 1911 of course) which reminded me again how much I enjoy shooting both. I also like shooting my old Clark Custom target 1911 with wadcutter loads. That said, I don't carry either because the revolver is just too darn bulky and with the 1911, I'm just too darn klutzy to hit the extended safety every time when I draw it. So, no, I need something else in addition, but that's just me. I like my H&K squeeze-cocker because no matter how clumsy I am I never missed that!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I like my H&K squeeze-cocker because no matter how clumsy I am I never missed that!
I have one of those, a rather unique design
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Campfire Ranger
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I'm quite certain I am not alone in understanding that fact.El' Jefe NEVER promoted heavies at max velocity. NEVER.
Notice I am NOT saying the standard .45ACP is insufficient for its intended use, human combat.
Hot rod them all you want.
But Cooper's love-child was the 10mm, run at 30K+ psi. In fact his interest in the 10mm was to correct his perceived shortcomings of the 45ACP.
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Campfire Sage
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I'm quite certain I am not alone in understanding that fact.El' Jefe NEVER promoted heavies at max velocity. NEVER.
Notice I am NOT saying the standard .45ACP is insufficient for its intended use, human combat.
Hot rod them all you want.
But Cooper's love-child was the 10mm, run at 30K+ psi. In fact his interest in the 10mm was to correct his perceived shortcomings of the 45ACP. I've read much of Cooper's work, and the way I remember it, Cooper didn't feel the .45 ACP had any drawbacks in its design role other than capacity potential (and he wasn't so much speaking for himself, but for others who wanted more capacity in a major caliber), and this was the reason for his suggestion of a 10mm round, i.e., so you could stagger the magazine (wonder nine style) in something like a CZ-75 in 10mm (� la the Bren Ten). He didn't imagine they could ever design a staggered magazine 1911 in .45 ACP, which they later went on to do. Not sure what his opinion of the staggered magazine 1911s were, though. Maybe he thought the grip was too thick for all I know. I've personally never held one in my hand.
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Campfire Tracker
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I'd guess that if a man could have run a course of fire with Col. Cooper in observation while using a .45 Super 255gr pushed at over 1100fps (obtaining a satisfactory score) the Col. would likely nod his approval.
Knowing how he differentiated self defense from combat as being seven yards and not fifty or more, it makes much sense why he used and promoted the loadings he did for the .45 ACP. +P was the upper limit in his opinion. Had the distinct pleasure of listening to him state that in person.
He was well aware of higher capacity .45 ACP 1911A1's. Was not that long ago he left us. His envolvement in the various .40 caliber versions over the years was more for improving handgun combat applications (think US Marines in the field) and to stretch effective distances with flatter trajectories. Capacity was not the key concern.
Fitting within the intended platform was.
Discussions of the .40 Super, the .45 Super and the 10MM in all their various forms are to be considered completely different cartridges with different intentional applications. Heck, they were initially developed/designed for platforms other than the 1911A1. Do they work in properly built 1911A1's? Sure.
Can everyone put one to use in self defense application? Probably not.
Those who can, and have proven it to themselves through practice, drive on!
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He was well aware of higher capacity .45 ACP 1911A1's. Was not that long ago he left us. I must not have been clear. I know he only left us recently. When I said he didn't imagine they could design a practical, staggered magazine, 1911 in .45, I was refering to the period of time when he first started discussing his thoughts about the merits of developing a 10mm along the lines of a CZ-75.
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Campfire Tracker
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That's the beauty of knowing and understanding just how much the Colonel changed defensive handgunning.
He lived through the changes. He discussed his opinions and how they changed through experience and observed results. It was a constant work in progress for him.
Wasn't much going on in the industry that he was not privy to.
Include .gov and Quantico too.
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I must not have been clear. I know he only left us recently. When I said he didn't imagine they could design a practical, staggered magazine, 1911 in .45, I was refering to the period of time when he first started discussing his thoughts about the merits of developing a 10mm along the lines of a CZ-75. Timeframe of mid-late 80's, DxD had the Bren moving to production at the same time Para was bringing their hi-cap .45 frames/kits to production. Notice neither of the above spent much time on his belt. What did hang off his hip was not "nuclear" loaded either. He proved time and time again the advantages to the .45 ACP and the 1911A1 for self defense. He was not one to throw away something just because it was different. He simply knew what worked.
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Campfire Sage
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I must not have been clear. I know he only left us recently. When I said he didn't imagine they could design a practical, staggered magazine, 1911 in .45, I was refering to the period of time when he first started discussing his thoughts about the merits of developing a 10mm along the lines of a CZ-75. Timeframe of mid-late 80's, DxD had the Bren moving to production at the same time Para was bringing their hi-cap .45 frames/kits to production. Notice neither of the above spent much time on his belt. What did hang off his hip was not "nuclear" loaded either. He proved time and time again the advantages to the .45 ACP and the 1911A1 for self defense. He was not one to throw away something just because it was different. He simply knew what worked. Yep. True.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Cooper's favor for the 10mm was more than magazine capacity. Power, trajectory, and penetrative qualities were/are far superior to what the 45 ACP can muster in standard guise.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Side question are those taurus pt 1911's worth a damn? Or fall in the you get what you pay for category With the Taurus PT 1911 you get more than you pay for. The gun has been around since 2005 and has an excellent reliability record. In either stainless or blue it is an excellent choice for someone looking for a full-size 1911, but who doesn't want to bust the bank buying a similarly spec'd Kimber, S&W, Colt, etc. Two things, in my opinion, make the gun an outstanding buy: (1) it is a dimensionally accurate copy of the 1911, which means any aftermarket parts that will fit a Colt, will fit the Taurus, something that can not be said for many of the reasonably priced 1911s out there; (2) the Taurus PT 1911 comes out of the box with Heinie two-dot "Straight Eight" sights, which I find to be just about the fastest sights I've ever used. For the money (RRP $759.00) I don't think you can go wrong with the Taurus. I'll second that opinion. I've been very happy with mine. It's only had ~500 rounds through it so far, so it's still early days for an objective opinion. However, I haven't had a single failure yet, shooting a variety of HP and ball, and I'm still just using the factory mags. I picked up mine for $600 after tax (blued, w/ the walnut 1/2-checkered, 1/2-stipled grips).
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Campfire Ranger
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I'm quite certain I am not alone in understanding that fact.El' Jefe NEVER promoted heavies at max velocity. NEVER.
Notice I am NOT saying the standard .45ACP is insufficient for its intended use, human combat.
Hot rod them all you want.
But Cooper's love-child was the 10mm, run at 30K+ psi. In fact his interest in the 10mm was to correct his perceived shortcomings of the 45ACP. Cooper later on said that there really was no reason for the 10mm. They saw a perceived "need" and went about designing a cartridge that filled that need, only to later realize there was absolutely nothing wrong with the .45 ACP as is. The 10mm in full power loadings was more gun than most could handle and Cooper recognized that. The cartridge was actually designed by Whit Collins, John Adams & Irv Stone, with some help from Cooper. Cooper's real role was his collaboration on the Bren 10. But don't lend too much to Cooper and his Bren 10. This was an ill fated attempt to bring a product to market, and as it turned out, they were unable to successfully do that. The REAL idea was to SELL GUNS, not to correct any deficiencies in the .45 ACP.
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Campfire Sage
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I'm quite certain I am not alone in understanding that fact.El' Jefe NEVER promoted heavies at max velocity. NEVER.
Notice I am NOT saying the standard .45ACP is insufficient for its intended use, human combat.
Hot rod them all you want.
But Cooper's love-child was the 10mm, run at 30K+ psi. In fact his interest in the 10mm was to correct his perceived shortcomings of the 45ACP. Cooper later on said that there really was no reason for the 10mm. They saw a perceived "need" and went about designing a cartridge that filled that need, only to later realize there was absolutely nothing wrong with the .45 ACP as is. The 10mm in full power loadings was more gun than most could handle and Cooper recognized that. The cartridge was actually designed by Whit Collins, John Adams & Irv Stone, with some help from Cooper. Cooper's real role was his collaboration on the Bren 10. But don't lend too much to Cooper and his Bren 10. This was an ill fated attempt to bring a product to market, and as it turned out, they were unable to successfully do that. The REAL idea was to SELL GUNS, not to correct any deficiencies in the .45 ACP. +1
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Campfire Ranger
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I tend to agree on the point the 10mm may be too much for some to handle.
I had a Glock 20 that was pretty easy to handle though. I traded it off, and kept the Glock 21......silly me.
I love the 10mm ballistics, It's a serious step up from the 45ACP. The thing about the G20 that put me off was those bulged smilies in the fired case where it was unsupported. It just looked like the margin for safety was being pushed a little too close to the line.
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Campfire Ranger
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So anyway, I decided to ditch the 10mm, and if I want to carry more power than the 45ACP, I carry the Ruger SBH 44Mag.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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The easiest fix for reducing slide velocity in a 1911 is a square-bottom firing pin stop and it also reduces recoil. Chances are you can fire hotter loads without changing recoil springs or reduce the recoil spring weight for standard loads. The only downside is slightly increasing the effort needed to manually cock the hammer using the slide. As a bonus, the square-bottom stop is as designed by JMB. About $15 from EGW.
Forgive me my nonsense, as I also forgive the nonsense of those that think they talk sense.
Robert Frost
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Campfire Regular
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...Cooper later on said that there really was no reason for the 10mm... Kevin, do you have any idea where I can find this in print---I have a friend that's constantly beating me over the head about the 10mm. I'd love to have this in chapter and verse for him!! I have all of the Gunsite notes, etc. but don't recall seeing it anywhere.
The blindness from subjectivity is indistinguishable from the darkness of ignorance.
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