Saturday April 11 2009 at 8:30 A NC Game Warden (Minton)shot and killed 76 year old (Coffee)on his own land.Check the web site of WXII12 out of Winston-Salem NC for the lastest news...

Here is what I was told by a warden ,Minton and another warden where out doing there thing,they were going to check out the farm on cane creek.Minton knew the land so he went.He came across Coffee setting in a tree stand hunting turkey over bait.He told Coffee to come down and he would not.So they fussed for about 15 min and Coffee was telling Minton that it was his land and he could do what ever where ever and if he did not leave he would shot him.Minton ordered him down the tree and Coffee said if I come down and if you are still here I will kill you.Coffee 76 years old came down the tree by using a ROPE Ladder.Went he got to the ground,Minton had take cover and was radioing for back up and moments he was call for EMS and was doing CRP....
That I know no details of what happened between the first call and the last,that is info only for the SBI and the warden that told he would not say anything about it.I do know that Minton has been in law enforcement for 12 years and has been in trouble before for being hot headed.I think that he could of went back to the road and waited for Coffee and his son and two grandsons to come out and that would of given time for back up to get there and no one would have been killed.

In NC the Game Warden has more rights than the land owner if he thinks game laws are being broke.They can come and go on your land as the please and even in your home,Like it or Not.I also think that,that kind of power goes to there head and they think to put it nicey they are god.I have not use what so ever for the game warden.And because the is a family without a dad,granddad and a county that has lost a good man,why,because of a pill of corn..Damn shame.Please remember this family in your prayers...

Many gaps have to be filled in before I render an opinion on this one!

Here is the link to the what the news is reporting

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30179740/

In Florida, the fish and game guys have the legal right to be on your property, in your home or vehicle to investigate any reasonable assumption that you have violated a game or fish law.

Most any cop will kill you if you threaten them.

Gotta stop those hunting over bait by any means.

I couldn't respect a GW that wouldn't kill an old man over a turkey and a pile of corn. The law is the law.

LOL...I'm thinking there might be a bit more to it. I sure hope so, anyways!

Like arresting an 80 year old man for picking up a hooker? The law is the law, but if one can't factor in a bit of discretion and common sense they shouldn't be strapping on a gun and a badge.

Interesting concept, cops of any kind, especially wildlife officers with special rights to search... Or did you mean they can go in any house "With a warrant"?

Big difference...

No winners here and obviously the details are sketchy.

Wonder if the old man saw Clint's latest... Hmmm....

In Mississippi Game wardens must have a search warrent before they can search your home unless you give them permission.

Yeah,me too. Old Geezers can get pretty obstinate and think they are still able to kick ass.
Had an 80 year old still active farmer who came upon a road block because his farm was in fire.
The officer at the road block refused to let him through so he tried to get around it and ended up in a fist fight and arrested. Have my feelings on that one but sometimes you just got to let those in authority be arseholes and file it in your head for when you can effectively take your turn.

From Louisiana

Give a guy a gun and unlimited power and...

Old men can also be hard of hearing a bit short of awareness. Thinking discretion could have helped, but hard saying without knowing everything, and we will obviously only get one side of the story.

Let's not jump to any conclusions, just yet.

What if the landowner followed through with his alleged threat and pointed his weapon towards the GW?

Unless there was another witness, that about sums up the situation.

A gun pointed by a 76 year old can still kill, if thats indeed what happened...

It was the mans land and he should be able to hunt anyway he likes on his own property . No Game Warden has the right to kill some old man who has hunt his land this way for probably most of his life over a Turkey and a bag of corn. Government and State abuse at it worst. I don't care what the circumstances where THIS game warden should lose his job and see jail time and the family should sue the state because if there ever was a justified law suit this family has one. Prime reason why a lot of people hate Law Enforcement Officers

Nuff said. IMHO, [bleep] the GW.

Agreed, too much conjecture. If what is typed is so, I can't imagine a guy with a gun and a badge 'fussing' with an old man perched in a tree thinking that anything good would come out of it.

As has been said lots of blanks to draw to in this.
I will state that if somebody tells me they are going to shoot me and they have the means to do so danged if I am going to give them the chance to fulfill their promise. I don't care if they are as old as Methusela.

BCR

What if he did? This isn't a drug crazed felon. Back off and get back up and handle it later.

Agreed, but not sure I would spend 15 minutes arguing with a guy in a tree with a gun either. He would have eventually come down. Last I knew one didn't have charge someone at the moment of the 'crime'

Damn right. That's why the GW should have walked away. He was obviously dealing with an old coot, that did not take chit from anyone. Could have been settled at the road, easily. Even with "threat" charges thrown in with the baiting charge.

isaac - Agreed but the thing that's always bothered me is the fact that GW have more "power" than state or local police. You can't have evidence from a no warrant/illegal search done by a cop admitted into court so how can a GW get away with that?

A 76 year old guy that is still climbing trees is newsworth in and of it's self IMO.

It looks like a collision of two guys with the "You can't do this to me" syndrome with semi-predictable results if no one uses good judgment.

The Game Warden is charged with enforcing the law. It could be that his intention was to get the old guy out of the stand and read him the riot act and send him on his way...However once the old timer refused to co-operate and started issuing threats, its easy to see how things escalated...

Its no point in having LEO's if they back down under intimidation..

If the Old guy climbed down and co-operated, he'd still be alive now...

Thats if the events played out as the media and the GW say they did..

Simple.

Intimidation? How about putting your ego back in your pants and walking away from the crazy old [bleep], and meeting up with him later?

If a GW needed a warrant to catch poachers or folks hunting illegally, they wouldn't come close to catching the minimal 20% of illegal activities that they do stumble upon.

I've had GW's come upon property and inspect on every hunt I've been on in Canada and on some western hunts in the states as well as all my goose blinds in the US.

I've seen them stop by every check station and deer butchering shop to inspect licenses and tags as well.

They couldn't possibly get warrants to inspect all these places and things and do anywhere near an effective enforcement of game laws.

Hence, the leniency as to a warrant requirement.

and the dead man tells no tales.

His grandkids were with him,right?

The WARDEN can't unless he as photos of the bait site as evidence or it is the WARDEN word against the Hunter in court . He could have left and come back with his camera and took photos and then got a warrant for the old mans arrest. If the situation was escalating into a physical confutation then the WARDEN should have backed off and arrest the old man after everything cooled down. He shouldn't have pushed it to the point where he had to kill him , justified or not.

At what point is something 'hunting'? Is it illegal for a man to sit over a pile of corn on his property? Could have have been hunting something else that was in season (raccoon?)

If I'm legally hunting over bait for deer in December and a turkey comes to the bait, it isn't turkey season, it isn't legal to hunt turkey over bait, aren't I hunting illegally? Guess not since I didn't shoot the turkey, so why is it so on April the 11th?

GWs have not usually been considered LEOs in that sense, at least not until recent times. Most of them used to go unarmed to prevent confrontations with people who are armed to begin with.

The modern LEO attitude of establishing dominance (compliance) is a bit dangerous in the woods - and unnecessary as proven by years of experience.

Comply or die works better for bank robbing thugs than 76 year old turkey hunters.

I was walking to the boat in Paradise one fine spring day with a fishing pole and rifle in hand. A game warden was 'hiding' in a Forest Service vehicle. He jumped out and asked to see my hunting license. I told him I didn't have one on me. He said it was bear season, I had a rifle and I was going to the boat.

I told him every month except July and August are bear season. He said I had a rifle and that I must be hunting. I told him I had a condom in my wallet but I wasn't [bleep].


Another time a game warden stopped me on my ATV (had a 30/30 strapped on) and asked if I was hunting, I said NO. He asked what the rifle was for and I asked him what his pistol was for. Since it was deer hunting I must have been hunting, but you can't hunt from the road. So is traveling to a spot to hunt in fact hunting? Would you expect to show your hunting license if you were pulled over on I-10 about 50 miles from where you WERE going hunting? Would you have to show your driver's license if you were sitting in a treestand?

Steelhead,

Thats for the Courts to decide...The GW enforces his aninterpretation of the Law, but its up to the Judge and Jury to pass thefinal judgement.

The issue here isn't whether the old guy broke the law or not, its whether the GW's actions were reasonable in dealing with the situation he found himself in..

On reflection, perhaps it would have been better if had backed off and dealt with the situation once the guy was out of the tree, but I some how doubt the guy would have been more co-operative later..

regards,

Peter

Right at any risk isn't right. Perhaps some are more accustomed to being killed for hunting the Kings game, we aren't.

Bummer. The facts, at least some of the facts, will come out. If the GW were a civilian I wonder if he would have been considered to have escalated the encounter. I realize that argument would be moot for the GW who has a lot of authority, but, still, what a crummy end result.

______________________

Don't know all the facts but I will assume it is illegal to turkey hunt over corn during turkey season as it is in Va and WVa. Don't know though. I also have to assume the guy was only turkey hunting. All these assumptions are what premised me saying that there were too many gaps to render an opinion.

I'm also assuming the old man made an overt act in furtherance of his threat to kill the GW. The GW scrambled for acover for a reason, I suppose. I'm playing along with limited facts,that's all!

Should have just torched the woods and burned the old man out, worked in Waco.

As I said, when is hunting actually hunting? You missed the point.

Plus a ROPE LADDER to boot.....

I think the warden just wanted to show who was boss.Everyone that knew the old man wants the wardens head

Does anyone really think the old man who owned the land needed killing? I'd be really surprised if this could not have had a different outcome with a different approach. Leaving and coming back or any number of variations might have preserved the man's life, and that is should be the most important thing. Saddly, law, and the convenience and deference to it's stewards, appears more important than life.

Game Warden version , to bad the old man can't tell his side of the story. Rifle or Shotgun against a pistol , the old man couldn't have been trying to hard to shoot him. Warden story sounds a little fishie to me.

He wasn't killed because he was "hunting the Kings game" rather because he allegedly threatened the GW...If that threat didn't take place, the GW should be charged with murder...If the threat did take place, the GW acted inself defense while carrying out his duties..

You mention a couple of interactions you had with gamewardens..Because of the way you handled them, things didn't escalate to the point where shots were fired...Unless it can be proved otherwise, I'd say the old guy could have done the same as you..

Regards,

Peter

___________________

The man's grankids might be able to do so!

Nor would a banter with an old man for 15 minutes when DISCRETION could have been used.

Obviously if the GW said I need to see your license and the old man pointed the gun at him, well you know the rest.

Let me ask you, have you ever treated old folks different in a store than say a 22 year old? Would you have handled a situation different if a 22 year old said [bleep] you than you would a 76 year old man?

Looking forward to retirement ????

I expect the guy with the gun and badge to be in full control of his facilities, I don't necessarily of a 76 year old man on his property.

One is expected to decide the best course of action and best possible outcome. If it went as written it would seem the one being paid didn't.

Wait till the above happens to a 15 year old kid.

Hunting the King's game is tough business.

Pete E

You usually have pretty sound opinions, but at the very least there is a cultural gap here in understanding what our expectations are.

The GW is going to have a hard sell on this one. No sympathy here.

Steelhead,

I did say the above after reading your earlier post, but the reality is that didn't happen...What did happen is that the situation was escalated by both parties to the point shots were fired...

Whether the GW's actions were justified will be for the courts to decide..There also maybe more background such as the history of the two people involved that we are not privy to yet..

When was the last time you cussed an old person that could not drive worth a damn? How about some punk kid?

No wait until it happens to a 15 year old Black or Hispanic kid

toltecgriz,

Not a culteral gap, I was simply looking at whether the GW was a) expected to enforce the law, and b) whether he was entitled to shoot in selfdefence when doing so..

But rolling things back a bit before the shots were taken, i do agree that perhaps there could have been a better way for the GW to have handled it..

Regards,

Peter

Same here in TAX HELL WISCONSIN... If they feel you're in violation of any DNR law they'll follow you to the moon and back..

Don't know about NC., but in TAX HELL WISCONSIN the DNR wardens have more power (in their minds) than the Governor and/or P-BO...

Sorry to hear of this episode, but at the same time it's not a good idea to tell a warden you're going to shoot him... BUT, at the same time, it would have been wiser if the warden had called for backup/assistance before anything got out of control...

If you are going to shoot someone, then for God sake don't tell them , just do it.

Yes, the situation escalated and that is the point. The GW was the one that allowed it to happen. Not saying the old man was right but the every situation needs to be weighed. Is TURKEY hunting over bait worth the escalation? That is why we pay folks to wear a badge/gun. What would have been the outcome if he just walked away and charged the man later? This wasn't a zero-sum game.

What was to be gained and what was to be lost needs to be factored.

Amen!

You best go and actually find out what the law is.Wardens do not have super authority to tresspass or search your house.They have to have (probable cause)and be damn able to prove it.I took The WI.DNR to Court for tresspassing and won.These fuggers will try to BS you but They cant fight our rights.

[quote=Pete E]toltecgriz,

Not a culteral gap, I was simply looking at whether the GW was a) expected to enforce the law, and b) whether he was entitled to shoot in selfdefence when doing so..


I beg to differ on the cultural gap matter... Americans... ESPECIALLY rural land owning Americans, are very serious about being left alone on our own property.

This GW won't last long. The friends will set up a bait, and an accident will happen.

Only question I have, IS IT ILLEGAL TO SIT OVER A PILE OF CORN IN NC?

It is during spring turkey season. Bait has to be removed within 10 days of NC spring gobbler hunting.

I don't see where they were there. I believe it was just the land owner and the GW. Funny how it often works out that way in these kinds of situations.

Since when is it necessary to determine the facts in a case before rendering an opinion ?

So if you are sitting by a pile of corn with a shotgun that was set out to feed your cows in hopes of killing a coyote you are breaking the law?

Why was he turkey hunting? I was riding in a boat in Alaska along the beach with a rifle during spring bear season, does that mean I am bear hunting?

The bottom line is that an old man got killed ON HIS OWN LAND because he would not immediately submit to a game warden's alleged authority. Hell, it would probably have only been a $500 dollar fine and a couple of points off of his license anyway.

It really speaks for the general law abiding nature of rural Americans that game wardens aren't killed on a regular basis. It seems that many of them are frustrated cops and they really do tend to throw their weight around. Too much more of this kind of crap and game wardens could be an endangered species. They usually work alone and there would be a better chance of solving the Kennedy assasination than catching some pissed off guy who decided to shoot a game warden in the head from 200 yards away.

As far as I know, yes. If a GW can put you in a "hunting situation" he/she can cite you accordingly.

So if you are carrying a gun at ANYTIME other than an open game season you could be cited?

Or cited for not even having an firearm and NO license whilst walking your own land during a season?

Gotta love that logic.

YES,,,,you can bait deer with natural bait only and fall turkey the bait must be gone 10 days before you can hunt in an area that has been baited.Guy got a ticket last year for hunting on a farm that had a corn field.He beat it in court be still had to go though the trouble.......
The warden here don't play around,he a bad azz and is quick to let you know it.He has got me twice and this last time I almost lost my hunting lic for 2 years because a man gave a deer and I gave it to my nephew...no tag number for the deer.I was in the wrong,but the way he treated me and cussed me was not needed

Dittos

GTC

You guys ain't following it. So it's illegal to sit over corn with a gun, but what if you aren't hunting? Can you bait coyotes?

I don't think he was turkey hunting. I do believe the gentleman was protecting his corn from crows. Had a turkey been perforated, then I would assume he was turkey hunting. In any case a taxpayer is dead at the hands of someone at the public teat. How does the GW expect to get paid if he kills the guy writing his check?

Bad all round, but certainly worse for the land owner and family.

If the GW knew the guy, and tough words were exchanged, all that had to happen is for the GW to tell gramps in the tree that this turkey will cost extra this year. Stop by the office when you get a chance and I'll give you the ticket. Then walk away and deal with it when cooler heads prevail.

Prezactly, when is hunting hunting

Yeup. If I'm caught with any firearm other than a shotgun during spring gobbler season I could be cited. Private or public land. When spring gobbler season is closed, I can carry about anything on private land but public land you're limited to a handun in 22LR with no more than a 5.5" bbl during periods of no season(s) open for any game animal.

I don't care about public land for this discussion.

Screw it, the old man deserved to die. The GW did the right thing, helped to raise it along after 15 minutes of bantering with the old man. Hopefully next time he will have learned his lesson and just shoot them after the first verbal commend to leave climb down.

No , the bottom line is that no one posting here (including me) knows exactly what went on other than the old man is dead. We know nothing of the actions leading up to that event.

Mike

Good idea.

If I ever get caught illegally elk hunting I'll just tell the GW I am not really elk hunting, I am just trying to get close and observe them and I'm carrying a rifle because I'm scared of running into a bear.

That should work.

Yeah, I think the lesson here is not to let the game warden get the drop on you. In the future everyone should just SSS.

Nope we don't, but I find it funny some of the thoughts of others on here.

What I do know is there was a 76 year old man, private property, a game warden, and a death.

No, we pretty much do know what happened. And I don't really care what the GW says. As far as I'm concerned he is wrong and a murderer.

Didn't know it was illegal to carry a gun, must be in your liberal state. I know in Alaska folks carry them all the time, you would also be hard pressed to find a month of the year that some form of game isn't in season. Guess folks on salmon streams with shotguns should be ticketed for not having a hunting license.

IMO the GW messed up big time. If he had any sense he would have come back later and caught up with the guy at his house. Instead he decides to go the "bully with a badge" route. Some GW's seem to be lacking in common sense. Just recently my cousin lost his license for a year. He was deer hunting in a state where tags are issued by county. He was in a county where he did not have a license and some archery hunters flagged him down. They had wounded a deer and could not get close enough to get another chance at it. This was during gun season too. They asked my cousin to shoot it for them to prevent further suffering. He did just that and some GW was watching the whole thing from a mile away with binocs. So he got charged for shooting a deer in the wrong county. At least he got his gun back. BTW he was in the wrong county by about 300 yards.

But the law is the law.

No more than 7 1/2" Chad.
5.5" was the minimum for big game with a handgun but I think they did away with that.

Mike

OK Mike, thanks. Sorry for the error folks.

Chad

Oh , so you were there ?

Mike

The sad thing about this is that I could my dad getting into with a game warden. My dad probably hasn't even had a speeding ticket in 40 years, but he gets more and more stubborn as he gets up into his 70s. If someone were to come onto his land and presume to order him around, I could see things getting a little testy.

And old man killed on his property when the underlying offense was a minor misdemeanor at best. Yep, that equals murder as far as I'm concerned and I don't have to be there to make that determination.

Don't see in the regulations about stuff you folks have been posting, except pertaining to Game Lands, which from what I gather doesn't mean a mans property.

Were you there?

Mike

01.00-F PRIMA FACIE EVIDENCE. The possession of any tackle or killing device in fields, forests, along streams or in any location known to be game cover, may be considered along with other evidence as prima facie evidence that the possessor is hunting or fishing.

Out of the Arkansas regulations. miles

Amazing.. how many folks here were giving crap to Obama about not having the balls to handle some pirates, but now they're bashing an LEO for not running away when somebody threatened his life?

Whole story not known, but having ANY armed officer retreat due to a threat on his life is ridiculous. If anything, that's the one time that I'd say an LEO shouldn't retreat unless he's obviously outnumbered/outgunned.


And, here in Nebraska, purchasing any fishing or hunting permit does give game wardens permission to enter your house to verify that you are abiding by the possession limits. Had one GW doing a boater instructor class say how narcotics officers would use the GW's to enter suspects houses to check the freezers, and while there also look for anything laying around that they could then use to get a search warrant. But, the GW's don't have permission to trespass on your land without reasonable cause though. Know your state laws...

jmho..

Folks have become accustomed to being servants it appears.

Wyoming is liberal?

When did that happen?

I gotta read the papers more.

Thanks for the heads up.

I don't have to have been. The GW is a murderer.

That's a damn shame.

Well, as soon as they get those who aren't accustomed to being ordered around killed off, things will quieten down a bit.

Yep , what I thought

Mike

The Old Man shouldn't have died for hunting on his own land by some state employee, who by the way was getting payed by the taxes the old man has payed on this land for the privilege of owning it.

You are excused from jury duty.

The laws were written that way to answer the precise question you had earlier. When is one hunting? If the GW were required to actually catch someone pulling the trigger or in possession of illegal game, it would hard to ever give a ticket. However, it was presumed that game wardens would exercise a bit of discretion. Of course, in today's "compliance at all costs" era of law enforcement, discretion and common sense are in increasingly short supply.

Nope, I would lie my ass off to get a chance to hang that bastard.

Pretty funny, there was a post about a cop shooting a dog that was running at him (on someones PRIVATE PROPERTY) and everyone said he had no right to be there and it appeared as if the dog was just being friendly and that the cop should have been SHOT.

Fast forward and now it was RIGHT for the GW to not step away from creating a heated situation with an old man over a TURKEY and the GW was right to kill the old man.


Some [bleep] up folks on here with some [bleep] up ideas.

Alleghany County,,,shooting was in wilkes and the man was from hickory

Most likely .... that is up to the judge and jury to decide ... if there is a situation.

Are you saying that if the biggest Bear in the woods stepped out and mooned you ... you would not have shot him ?

Remember the AK Laws have 'attempting' written into it. That is probably one of the reasons. But maybe you were hunting red squirrels with that .338 !!!!!

Unless we have a third party present how does anyone
know what went on as we only have the GW's word for it!!Right!!!
I do believe the 1st post on this subject stated that this GW
had had a previous occurrence some what the same.Seems we are
concluding b4 all the facts are made available, Or will ever be
known. Cheers NC

Don't know about you but I tend to shoot halibut before bringing them into a 15' Whaler. Didn't know the laws specified what firearm I had to use to do that.

I might have if I had my hunting license, which I always did. Loved riding around with a rifle in December and being asked for my hunting license and showing them my trapping license.

Had more 'stupid' issues with AK Fish and Game than any place I've ever lived.


Had 6 of them (a few flew down from the Juneau office) because my pard was trapping out of season. It was mid-November and someone told them about traps being found. Well code 3 alert, trapping season doesn't start till 1 December. They pulled all 5 traps and were ready to hang. Guess it never dawned on them that a #5 leg hold with a 200 pound drag would be used for WOLF and they didn't know their own damn laws (wolf started on 10 November)

At least no turkeys were harmed.
that game warden protected the birds from being killed with corn in thier stomachs and he should get a medal.
that old man had no buisness doing that on his land. in fact how can we be sure its his land. it probably was stolen from some poor indian tribe. had he paid the correct amount of taxs? it might have been govenment land.

I'm sure the land owner escalated the misdemeanor offense to a felony which resulted in his death. The same holds true for a speeding motorists whom gets stopped for a civil infraction but introduces a weapon in the event. The GW's entry on the property seemed to be validated as they located the illegal stand.

I'm glad the GW's are OK.

If all a GW or any LEO for that matter has to do to justify a shooting is say, "I was threatened", then that is a license to kill.

In this case, the alleged shooting occurred after 15 minutes of increasingly heated arguing about what was a misdemeanor offense by the GW's own admission. If it were not a crime that would have warranted a shooting by an LEO in order to stop the crime, then a shooting should not be justified when the LEO took 15 minutes to ratchet up the tension.

Here's the funny one. Everyone is horrified by the cop that shot the dog (lots said he could have stepped away, which could apply to this situation) but as Calhoun and several have said we aren't paying them to step away. God knows we want them wading into old men turkey hunting on their property with guns drawn.

People are bothered by the dog, and agree with the GW, AMAZING.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2521034/page/0/fpart/1

Seems like there are two sides here, the ones who want to hang the GW based on what little we know, and those who are saying lets find out more before condemning the GW.

The latter seems more reasonable to me.

I dont hear anyone saying the GW was definitely in the right and the old man deserved to die.

It is well past time for reason when things like this happen on as regular a basis as they currently do. I'm ready to set up a guilliotine and begin an American "Reign of Terror".

It's obvious that the law is the law. The badge and gun can't be wrong nor are there witnesses. I'm proud that he want on an old man's property alone and nailed that bastard.

The stand wasn't Illegal, just Illegal corn. The 12 Turkeys on the jury will let the WARDEN off Scott free

The key here is "any location KNOWN TO BE GAME COVER." Carrying a rifle to a boat isn't game cover. Carrying the rifle on a FS road could be a closer call.

BTW prima facie evidence can be rebutted, it doesn't mean a conviction is impending based on that evidence alone.

Its never past time for reason.

IMO

What is really funny is here is his post concerning the dog that ran at the cop

The Game Warden call the White House and Obama issued the order to use deadly force on the Old Man who was holding the Turkeys hostage

Wade is FOR killing old men and against shooting dogs. Gotta love that!

Man was killed over a turkey!!! What else do you need to know?? If a kid steals a pack of gum and flees the police should he be shot also? While I am all for enforcing game laws, I don't think any animal is worth a human life. Honestly, I think the game laws in most states are totally out of control. Prison time and fines in the tens of thousands of dollars over animals?!? I once had a pair of wardens approach me as my then 8 year old son and I were leaving our duck blinds. One warden very politely asked to see my ducks and check my shotgun and ammo (everything was in order, as I check and double check everything, particularly when waterfowl hunting). While he was talking to my son and I, the other warden stood 20 yards away with his hand on his gun trying to look dangerous. A man with his hand on his gun in the presence of my young son worried me. I gotta admit that my first thought was to tell that ba$stard to take his hand off his gun or I'd take it off for him. But what do you do, you're at their mercy in that situation and they know it. That is the type of behavior that escalates situations, there was no need to touch a weapon, my shotgun was in a case and I was compliant. Nobody should ever get shot over a game violation, call it discretion, call it common sense, but they are just animals. Give the ticket later or catch them some other time - better yet don't create a situation where the only out is a gun fight.

I'd be interested in hearing "Wade" speak on private property owner's rights, somewhen.

GTC

Yep, If they old guy had just followed the orders given by the Game Warden, he would still be alive. I hate people's attitudes that they can do what they want and when they want,,who cares if it is illegal. It WAS on his land, but what he was doing was illegal. Just as if he would have been running a Still.

The guy was killed for threatening the life of an officer, and being armed and fully capable of it (and possibly attempting it).

if the kid with the pack of gum is caught by an officer, and produces a knife or gun when being arrested and tells the cop he's going to kill him, then YES!!! Shoot the dumb schitt.

And Steelie, the dog thing is totally off base and comparing apples to oranges. Quit being a troll.

Amen, kill the bastard and every kid popping birds with a pellet gun. We'll eventually weed through them all.

Hell, every household and car should have a camera to see if folks are doing anything wrong, we don't need know stinking warrants.

How is it off base, both felt threatened apparently, hence the shooting or a dog and a man.

This officer responded to a direct threat on his life by an armed man. The dog thing has nothing in common except that it involved an LEO.

So you WERE there!

And evidently rural American GW's are very serious about being threatened with a firearm...

It is *your* laws that empower GW's (we don't even have GW's) to enter onto private property and it is your laws that make hunting turkey over corn an offense in that particular area..

The GW was doing his duty in investigating /enforcing those laws although I do concide he could have approached the issue with a bit more tact.

But *if* the old guy threatened him and the GW believed his life was in danger, I can't fault him for pulling the trigger...Would say the same if it had been a 15 year old doing the pointing and making the threats..

Its a shame the way it turned out but if you point a weapon at an armed GW or LEO, there are going to be some serious consequences..Having said all that, if the GW is proved to be lying, he should be charged with murder but as yet we only have his word on the events..

I'm sure your 'thick' file is still open .... you don't think they know what 'you' are up to ... Alaska is a small town ...

Maybe the Old Man and the GW go back years. Still I have to agree that the GW should have used some smarts. Maybe the Old Man was going to kill him before he could get away from the scene.

One GW (Skinner) was after my Uncle (uncle Bernice) for many years, down Fiddletown way. I was in the field a time or two when there were confrontations between them. Thought it could have escalated to shots fired ... but it never did. They could only get Uncle Bernice when he was old a grey after some young drunk pulled a knife on him at the local Bar (in River Pines) after Uncle Bernice told them to watch their dirty mouths ... as there were Ladies in the room .... Pool Que to the head puts you right quick down and out. Funny thing Uncle Bernice was the only one that saw the knife ... even when many saw the two young guys threaten him. Also funny that Skinner (long retired) was at Uncle Burnice's trial and chuckled when the Judge says guilty. Those thick 'files' can catch up to you.

Maybe the Old Man had a thick 'file' .... just saying.

Still sad day for em all I'm sure.

If I were a time traveling, omniscient, wonder-dude like some of yall...I'd sure nuff spend my time doing other things than arguing on the internet.

I agree.

Everyone seems to forget that when the man threatened to kill the warden, it was no longer a misdemeanor offense.

The fact is NO ONE here knows exactly what happened.

If the man had started shooting as soon as the game warden walked up, wounded the warden, and then the warden shot back there are some on this site who would still think the warden was wrong.

Did it ever occur to anyone that the old man was in the wrong the entire time of the incident, from the moment he didn't follow the request of a law enforcement officer and especially when he threatened to kill the officer?

I'm not saying the warden was right or wrong in killing the man because just like everyone else....I was not there. He was not wrong, like it or not, for performing his duties of asking the man to come down so he could issue the man a ticket.

Bill

PRESS HERE

Just in case anyone thought I was callin ya ugly names.

What am I up to?

Granted, only 2 people know and only one is talking. If people have no problems with law enforcement coming onto their property (or anyone for that matter) at anytime then Godspeed.

Don't ya know?

Some folks are just plain too helpful!

As a professional, it was on the shoulders of the warden to enforce the law with descretion (In this case it wasn't a multi-state poaching ring, it was a pile of corn and an old man illegally trying to shoot a turkey). The warden argued with the man until a threat was issued by the old man. The old man apparently made as if to follow through with the threat (maybe) and was killed over baiting turkeys. WHY? Was there an imminent danger to the public if that old man wasn't stopped immediately? What would the warden have done if he was in that situation unarmed? Bottom line, the situation was handled poorly and a man died - that is evident to all but those who are completely blind.

How would I know ....I am not omniscient !!! But I bet THEY do !!!!

Guess not.

Went out to 'rescue' a pard who's 16' skiff broke down. We were pulling him back to the dock (about 5 miles away) in a 17' Whaler about 45 minutes before dark. Here come the game cops, they pull up in their boat, flak vests on and ask me "Are you hunting?"

I reply "No, I'm towing"

They say "You're not hunting?"

I throw up my arms and say "Look around" it's a 17 foot center console Whaler, only thing in it are me, a pard, 2 life vests and a tank of gas.

They then pull up to my pard being pulled "Are you hunting?"

I say "No, he is being towed" they then say they saw a skiff that looked like his on the beach earlier in the day. He says it wasn't him. They then drive away.

Never once did they ask if we needed any assistance, since I was towing him. Gotta like that for building Public Acceptance.

God knows, but whatever it is I know there is a woman out there somewhere with a smile a mile wide on her lips from it

Lynn

Probably more than one, luckily they can't find me....

If the old man threatened, and IF the fish cop felt threatened for his life then the cop had every right to commit homocide.

Just because he had the right to do it doesn't make it the right thing to do. Cop coulda sat behind a tree and waited him out. What kinda cop tactics is it to confront an armed senior citizen without some means of cover? Lotsa things shoulda happened before he shot the poor guy outta the tree...can't shoot turkeys out of trees, but grandpas are open season.

I like how you bifurcated two post to form an opinion. The two are apple and oranges. Isn't it odd how I go against some police actions such as the shooting of the dog? I seen you had dug through my posts to bring up the dog quote from long ago. I'm sure you will see that I don't always side with the LEO threads on the fire. I keep an open mind unlike some members here.

I tried to find the dash cam video of Trooper Randall Wade (Texas) whom stopped a seventy year old man for a traffic offense and tried to talk him into dropping his lever action as he stepped from the car . The old man was ornery and failed to listen to numerous commands. The Trooper died on video. One can't equate age as being harmless.

Steelhead,

You have done things I can only dream about. For that, I respect the hell out of you!

Reminds me of the guy that stepped out in a crosswalk directly in front of me (I was doing 25mph, the posted limit) and it was all I could do to not hit him.

He then slapped the hood of my truck and said 'Pedestrians have the right of way'

He may have been correct but being RIGHT isn't what I would want on my tombstone.

If this case did truly involve 15mins of banter before the shooting I say the GW might have been RIGHT but their were certainly OTHER and BETTER ways to handle the situation. Right ain't always right.

Reread the initial post.. the "senior citizen" climbed out of the tree, down a rope ladder.


Some of the crying here about how GW's shouldn't be able to come on your land or about an eventual shooting of a violator after an escalation reminds me a lot of what I hear from old Al Sharpton when some gangbanger gets shot after pulling a gun on a cop.

"It's the cop's fault! If he hadn't of tried to break up that drug deal with that poor, misguided soul, nobody would have died!"

I do, nor do I side with anything just because. Lots of if's and I know that in this case but unless the old man started shooting from the get go there were better ways.

I dread to ask but do GW's carry Tasers?

Funny Calhoun, if the old man climbed down the rope I can't see how he could have had the gun in his hands whilst doing it nor how the GW couldn't have 'handled' a 76 year old man before he left the rope ladder.

Nope, but they are trained in the JUDY CHOP method of self defense...I'm particularly fond of the "fan motion" at the end.

YOU GOTTA SEE THIS

It wasn't as if the ole man was planting trees in his own back yard with a handgun on his hip. Jeesh.

Hmm.. maybe the officer took cover after the gentleman threatened his life? Like they train them to? And was still trying to defuse the situation until the last minute?

Wasn't there, can't judge. But I'm not going to pre-judge the GW to be at fault based on the information given. As far as I can he was doing his job and stayed inside normal procedures as I'd understand them. Maybe more info will come out showing him to be at fault.. and if he is, I hope they hang him up high.

The one thing that really ticks me off though is the thought that any LEO should run and hide if somebody threatens him. Especially a game warden where help may be a LONG time coming.

Chuck Norris coulda come down that ladder, one hand on the ladder, one hand cradling an M-16 or even a ma-deuce...maybe the Warden saw Chuck Norris in town wearing a T-shirt with a picture of the old man on it. Plum spooked the fish cop and he had a premature ejac and shot him.

AMEN!

Didn't mean to be overly harsh on you wade, or maybe I did, but regardless I have no bone with you.

Does the property belong to the "gang banger?"

This property belonged to the "old man." There is a difference.

Shhhhhhh

O, I forgot.

Is TRH sick or something? I think someone should check on him...This ain't right.

You're right They ought to hitch up their britches and wade in there guns blazing. I mean, my God, they are game wardens. Why shouldn't they blaze away like anyone else. Their cojones are on the line . God forbid they use any judgment.

Wonder what Lunger would have done.........

I wondered the same thing exactly - but I know the answer. He would have called in a napalm strike. I mean the old guy had violated the law and wasn't complying. Case closed.

Okay, I'm throwing in my two cents. I could really use more detail here but for what was reported here, Mr. Coffee was not shot by the GW becuase he was hunting over bait (that was the reason for his contact). I believe he was killed becuase Coffee (not being a bright man) threatened to kill and most likely made the attempt to follow through on the game warden who was inforcing game laws (which he's intrusted to do). Mr. Coffee should have contacted his governing local legislator to get the game laws changed if he didn't agree with them. Or, be a little more careful not to get caught by the game warden. However, after making threats to the officer (who by law is not expected to run away everytime he is threatened), if he came out of that tree and attempted to carry out those threats, and the GW trully believed Coffee had the ability and intent, and was reasonably in fear for his life, well then THAT WAS THE REASON WHY THE GW SHOT AND KILLED POOR OLD ME.COFFEE. It's very possible the GW might have been more tactful with Mr. Coffee, defusing his anger. Then again, maybe he was and it was to no avail. Who knows? I have a question though, what would any of you do if you were the Game Warden and someone came out of a tree with the intent to kill you? I'm going to guess. If you trully believed they meant to follow through, I think you would shoot them too. That's what I think. Easy to judge another in the safety of your home, with scant information.

A few more maybes might clarify your position.

O well, it was just an old man. So what's the diff? GW comes out smelling like a rose for a good job well done. After all, the old man was trying to kill a turkey. The turkey's life is far more important than the "old mans."

According to this, Officer Minton was investigating due to reports of people hunting over bait. If true, there's your probable cause..

http://www.journalpatriot.com/fullstory.asp?id=1252

Finally somebody gets it.

You're right. There is not much to go on with the scant info we have here. Hard to judge this case with only what we've been told. True.

don't know what to do about it, but bottom line some folks shouldn't have guns. though I don't trust the gov't to decide that, so the only reasonable alternative is to let eveyone have them.


also some folks shouldn't have badges to go with their 2nd ammendment right.

I'm all for if the gov't can't give a badge to a man with some damned common sense they should be held liable if things get ugly due to their lack of discretion.

It's not the Turkey, Buck. It's not the game Warden who makes the laws he just inforced them. The reason for the shooting, has to do with being threatened with being killed. At that point the turkey hunting was no longer in the mathmatics. What would you have done if you were threatened with being killed for attempting to issue a citation? Mr. Coffee seems to have been a little...you know, Woo Hoo...and escalated his problems greatly.
I for one don't espect the GW to let himself be killed by Mr. Coffee. I hope you don't expect that either.

Kinda takes the fun outta poachin if'n you're gonna get shot. Oh wait, can you really poach if it's on your OWN land?

After all, the old man was trying to kill a turkey. The turkey's life is far more important than the "old mans."
_________________________




________________________

Really? What if the old man made an overt act in furtherance of his threat to kill the GW? I don't care if they were arguing over a baseball card. Someone threatens your life with a weapon, and then presents an overt action in furtherance of that express threat to kill ,while armed, it's lights out...period!

This has nothing to do with a turkey!

There it is there, well put Isaac.

+1, isaac. Thank you for stating it better than I could manage.

Well now Isaac, I don't know about that. Sounds to me like two armed, buttheaded turkeys got into it and one come out on the short end.

BCR

Wonder if the fine for hunting turkey over bait comes out of the estate?

chiseled in his tombstone: Shoulda kept his mouth shut.

Game warden should have left and handled the situation after the threat was diffused. He was enforcing a law that deals with wild animals and the feeding of them while hunting, nothing that presents a threat to public safety. AND he was on private land. Next thing you know the dog catcher is going to kill someone over an unlicensed dog in their own home. Old man should never have threatened the game warden, then again the game warden should never have created the situation in the first place (he's supposed to be the professional). You ask, should they walk away. I say YES!!! Game laws, stolen packs of gum, litter, and stray dogs all have something in common --- NONE of them are worth someone getting killed over. Maybe teachers should be licensed peace officers so the next time some loudmouth kid says I'll kill you, the teacher can pump 2-3 into his chest if he makes any furtive movements. He11 if we're gonna start killin' folks we might as well get rid of the rotten apples while they're young.

Fair enough,Boggy. But, even I know that were I in that dynamic, I certainly wouldn't be threatening an armed badge of authority with a threat to kill him, especially were I armed, as well.

Maybe I'm foolish that way but I just think it's bad JuJu to go that route!

nothing that presents a threat to public safety
___________________

He threatened to kill a officer of the law. What does public safety have to do with it? How about the officer's safety if you accept the possibilty the armed old man did, in fact, threaten to kill the GW and presented an overt act in furtherance of the threat?

Bob

My remark was semi-tongue in cheek, but I hope if I were in the GW's position, I wouldn't feel the need to kill the old guy just because my authority had been challenged. The citation, if one was going to be written, could have been served in other ways.

Anyway, I'm glad this one man poaching ring was terminated, although that doesn't seem like the proper word or does it.

You know in the "old West," when two armed men met, the level of courtesy increased and problems were avoided for the most part. No more, compliance at any price.

GW: Hey Coffee, that you up there in that tree?
Coffee: Damn right and you get the f off my land!
GW:Coffee, you know I ain't gonna do that. I got you dead to rights huntin turkeys over bait and I'm gonna write you a ticket you old coot. Now get on down here.
Coffee: I ain't comin down til I get a turkey, I'm 76 years old and the climb up damn near kilt me. Now get the he11 outt here.
GW: Whatcha gonna do if I don't old man, shoot me?
Coffee: If I gotta climb outta this tree I damn sure will you miserable SOB. Now here, hold this shotgun so I can get down.
GW: OK, here's your shotgun back, now point the damn thing over there while I write you a ticket.
Coffee: just a damn minute, did you forget I was supposed to shoot you after I hit the ground? Let me catch my breath.
GW: Oh, that's right...you're gonna shoot me, I'm scared. BOOM

If only Andy Taylor had been there , he could've talked the old man down out of the tree , took him home for supper with Aunt Bea & Opie , and everyone would live happily ever after.

Mike

I really enjoy most of the opinions and the give and take here on the Campfire, but some of you folks really need to get a reality check. Making snap judgments about this incident is a fools errand at best.
We at this point know very little about what really happened.
Some of you are ready to go on a Game Warden killing spree? Are you for real? Please let me know if you are going to be near my location so I can do my best to avoid you.

Isaac's last post puts it in perspective.

Could the GW have handled it better? Most here are saying yes. I don't know, I've seen some unbelievably belligerent old men, that believe they are bulletproof.
Who knows, I'm just sorry to hear that a man was killed in an avoidable situation.
Lest any of you want to assume that I'm an LEO/GW apologist, that's not true. I see the stupid side of LEO's/GW's and the general public enough to believe that there's plenty of blame to go around in many instances.

Case in point, me, my Dad, his buddy and his buddy's uncle went to New Mexico on a guided elk hunt across the valley from the Jicarilla Apache Reservation.
The regulations stated that a legal bull needed to have four points on one side.
Well, old Ralph puts a forkhorn on the ground, and when the guides and his nephew asked him what the Hell he thought he was doing shooting a non legal bull, he belligerently stated. "I'll shoot any God Damned thing I want, and if a Game Warden has a problem with that, I'll shoot him too"!
This put us other three guys in a real bind, with the guides not wanting to get their asses in trouble, and us not wanting to have our legal bulls confiscated and getting pinched by the law over this dumbass stunt by old Ralph.
Luckily, it was taken care of in a manner I'm not willing to reveal on the 'net but I vowed right then and there not to aid or protect dumbass violators. Old Ralph couldn't understand when he was told that he was not welcome to hunt with us anymore. His words were "You're a bunch of pussies to be afraid of the Possum Cops"

So before condemming or exonerating the Game Warden let's hear some facts.

Game warden snaps a picture and leaves - mails the ticket to the guy and nobody dies. Game warden decides to show this old scab who's boss, pushes the situation to the limit and a man dies. I know which scenario makes the most sense to me considering the encounter began over a relatively meaningless game law. It is expected that as a peace officer (barely, in the case of game wardens, dog catchers, and mall cops) they will have to deal with both your average Joe as well as the most ignorant, lawless folks around. Being able to handle both without alienating the public, escalating tense situations, or getting yourself or others killed, is what seperates professionals from posers. Throw a loaded sidearm into the mix and the posers have the potential to undo a lot of the good done by those a little more secure in their manhood.

I agree with you toltecgriz, except that he was threatened with his life by an armed man, a little different than just having your authority challenged.

Bill

"Game warden killing spree?" I haven't seen anyone advocate that.
What are you talking about?

Of course we have to take the Game Wardens word for that don't we.

What armed law enforcement officer would ever foolishly consider turning his back and walking away from an armed man who has threatened to shoot him dead?

A badge of authority caught the old man dead to rights, illegally hunting, and ordered him down. The old timer threatened to kill the GW. I remember many of you castigating LE for not rushing into Va Tech and not rushing in at Binghamton NY old folk's home and now this cop should have merely walked away from an armed threat on his life!

Good grief! Damned if you do, damned if you don't!

I am sorry for the old man...I truly am. But, if it were a gang banger up in that tree poaching turkeys, I bet there wouldn't be a peep other than props to the GW for taking out the POS.

There's only one status when it's an armed man threatening to shoot you dead,IMO!

Now, if it turns out the GW was power happy, I'd be the first to shift gears. But now, I'm believing the GW didn't just shoot this man only because he was up in a tree poaching turkeys!

YMMV and I am cool with that! It's just how I see it.

Bottom line to this as I read it, no one will ever know what really happened. Only one side to the story left alive.

Me, I'm with a bunch of others, common sense would tell you to leave and get with it later. Pushing folks, especially folks that are old and may not be mentally all there at any given moment, is just stupid, I'm willing to think the GW may should take some of the blame, unless he was not allowed to walk away.

I recally where we called the ambulance because grandpa was having a fit with his alzheimers at home. Grandma got out of the house and we called. SO showed up first and wanted the doors unlocked(I"d put double deadbolts on for security- this on a 100 acre farm out in the country) and when I unlocked the door, after they asked if weapons and we said NO, all knives are locked in kitchen drawers(my doing also) and the only gun left has the firing pin removed, so no, no danger at all, they drew weapons, upon which I simply stepped in front of the [bleep] and moved in and grandpa listened to them tell him to stay sitting..... The reason we called the ambulance is he had a fit and got a chicken out of the fridge and was throwing it at grandma, he needed a calming shot and delivery to a nursing home at that point. But being afraid enough to draw weapons on an 85 year old alzheimer patient with a chicken out of the fridge....

I"ve seen both sides. Escalating it is asking for it IMHO, especially when its nothing more than the same violation as a speeding ticket or such....

Jeff

Plus, there's threats and then there are threats. We sure don't know that part, but apparently we do know the GW had time to take cover and fire from that cover and no one said the old man shot.

I think he (the GW) had better options (almost) regardless of the scenario.

From the article:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"...Went he got to the ground,Minton had take cover and was radioing for back up..."

And from the original poster after speaking with another LEO
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"I think that he could of went back to the road and waited for Coffee and his son and two grandsons to come out..."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


So, the GW had to take cover for some reason and there might have been witnesses.

Now you did it. I see a subpeona in your future.

In Texas a GW doesn't need a warrant to check you,your vehicle or your residence or anything else if he deemed it necessary.

This twice we've disagreed. Once more and I take you off my speed dial.

In Texas a GW doesn't need a warrant to check you,your vehicle or your residence or anything else if he deemed it necessary.I agree with isaac.

That's the neat thing about friendships and having a healthy debate against someone who's opinion you greatly respect. It ain't personal. In fact, it would be really boring if we all agreed with each other all the time.

I see both sides of this and you advocate your position with your usual talented,near persuasive style. Just not for me; at least for today,anyways. We just see it different, pard...that's all.

If the Game warden was threatened with his life, he certainly would not turn his back on an armed man. I can't see how a game warden would risk his badge for an encounter with an old guy unless it was a dangerous situation. I know others have had bad encounters with game wardens, and maybe I've just been lucky in Wyoming. But I've never ever had a bad encounter with a game warden, even when I was clearly in the wrong with one stupidly bad decision I made. They were all professional by the book, knowledgeable, and respectful. I remember an old guy I ran into, that fortunately for me, he was friendly. But he had some hard core attitudes about poaching elk on his back forest, and plainly, with cold eyes, said he'd bury any game warden who tried to stop him. I believed him.

Interesting story. At least the Squirrel Sheriff's are taking the heat this time. The GW's in this state are issued chainsaws for this type of particular incident.

Now you've forced me to take you off my speed dial too for agreeing with him.

BTW, I know a Texas lawyer who doesn't agree with the residence part.

OK, I'll modify my statement to add these quotes, which among others I could search from this thread which show a decidedly anti law enforcement/anarchist viewpoint.


+++++++++++++++++++==
Yeah, I think the lesson here is not to let the game warden get the drop on you. In the future everyone should just SSS.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++==
Originally Posted By: lodgepole
Originally Posted By: Cossatotjoe
Originally Posted By: 6mm250
Were you there?

Mike


I don't have to have been. The GW is a murderer.



You are excused from jury duty.


Nope, I would lie my ass off to get a chance to hang that bastard.
+++++++++++++++++++++
It is well past time for reason when things like this happen on as regular a basis as they currently do. I'm ready to set up a guilliotine and begin an American "Reign of Terror".

But it's not your own land, house, property, wife, child once the government says otherwise. I believe you need to enroll in the Bill of Rights and Wrongs re-education program. Resistance is futile......you will be assimilated.

I thought you meant GWs in general since it was characterized as a spree, implying more than a few.

That is what I'd call a superb CMA!

Nope, sorry for the misunderstanding.
Although it seems some might feel that way.

NP

Nope, no more than we would anyone else's. Unfortunately, he's the only word we've got that anyone here knows of.

But some here think the game warden automatically is lying about what happened just because he's a game warden. I think the truth is some here just want a game warden look bad regardless of the truth.

Its what they want to have happened in their imagination, regardless of what really did happen.

BTW if its found the game warden was wrong, I hope they nail his butt to the wall for it.

Bill

Ok. I see where you got that now. I guess I figured they were hunting different areas. If there were witnesses, I would have thought the articles would have mentioned it. No matter. Thanks!

I could very well be mistaken on the interpretation. Kind of why I said I'm merely working from some assumptions.

There's no right or wrong amongst us. We're all really guessing without having all the facts, aren't we?

As has been said, we have only one side of the story and that's all we will have. And GW is not about to admit that he killed the game offender just to show him that he could. Or that he was so afraid that nothing else seemed to be the right thing to do. It would be an insult to his manhood and high office to walk away only to come back later with more men. In Wyoming, if I have it right, GWs can come on to private property only with the landowner's permission or a warrant. Private property is considered as hallowed ground by GWs and dog catchers. Real law men don't need the invite.

We just ain't never gonna know what happened.

In North Carolina GWs don't need permission or a warrant , they go where they please.

Mike

Looks like the old man had a hearing problem. The bastid prolly only had a few years left anyway.

If the GW has a job after this, it will be a serious blow to the NC Wildlife Resources Commission. I have no respect for that outfit anyway. They are totally run by politicos, and not biologists.

I hope they use the rope from the ladder to hang the GW. HE SHOULD HAVE WALKED AWAY!


http://www.myfox8.com/wghp-hunter-killed-090412,0,4986126.story

I have hunted a lot in NC & baiting of deer is legal, but not turkey. Bait has to be removed a number of weeks before turkey season starts. The bottom line is that baiting turkey is not a capital offense. Certainly, the old guy(kind of strange for an old guy like me to be calling someone else an old guy) should have climbed down & not threatened the warden. I know many wardens & most are great at protecting our wildlife, but a few are a$$holes. We have had hostage stand offs with bank robbers & even murderers where non lethal means were used such as tear gas. Why couldn't the warden have called the police & meanwhile went to the house on the property & tried to discuss with family? I believe the warden escelated this shooting & should be accountable. I feel deeply for the family.

Bigbuck....Has this changed since 1999?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

September 8, 1999
FORMAL OPINION NO. 99-006
TO: John Baughman, Director
Wyoming Game and Fish Department
FROM: Gay Woodhouse
Attorney General
Michael L. Hubbard
Deputy Attorney General
Rowena Heckert
Deputy Attorney General
QUESTION 1: Do Game and Fish enforcement officers have authority to enter
private lands without a search warrant, or without landowner
permission, or �without probable cause� that a violation is
occurring in order to check compliance with hunting and fishing
laws and regulations?
SHORT ANSWER: Game and Fish law enforcement officers may enter open fields
without a search warrant, or without landowner permission, or
without probable cause to check compliance with hunting and
fishing laws and regulations.
QUESTION 2: May Game and Fish law enforcement officers enter private
property to check compliance with statute and regulations when
it is simply known or probable that hunting or fishing activities are
occurring?
SHORT ANSWER: If the private property is an open field, the law enforcement
officers may enter the property to check compliance. Probable
cause is required to search individual effects and buildings.
QUESTION 3: If wardens do have the authority, then does the Commission have
the power through policy to restrict this authority on private lands?
If the Commission does have this power, the Commission could,
33
1) choose to restrict enforcement authority or, 2) choose not to
restrict enforcement authority on private lands.
SHORT ANSWER: The Wyoming Game and Fish Commission may only interpret the laws
of the state and therefore may not limit the authority of law enforcement
officers to enter private property. See Discussion.
DISCUSSION
I. The Statutes
The State of Wyoming, in its sovereign capacity and as trustee, must manage and
regulate the State�s wildlife for the common benefit and interest of all its citizens:
For the purpose of this act, all wildlife in Wyoming is the property
of the state. It is the purpose of the act and the policy of the state
to provide an adequate and flexible system for control,
propagation, management, protection and regulation of all
Wyoming wildlife. (Emphasis added.)
WYO. STAT. � 23-1-103.
This ownership of the wildlife is also sanctioned by the United States Constitution.
O�Brien v. State, 711 P.2d 1144, 1148-49 (Wyo. 1986), quoting Lacoste v. Department of
Conservation of the State of Louisiana, 263 U.S. 545, 44 S.Ct. 186, 68 L.Ed. 437 (1924).
The legislature has required the Wyoming Game and Fish Commission, acting through the
Wyoming Game and Fish Department, to administer, manage and maintain all the State�s
wildlife. WYO. STAT. �� 23-1-302 and 23-1-401. A very significant portion of that wildlife is
found on private property.
By statute, the legislature has provided the Commission with extensive authority and
responsibility to regulate and manage the wildlife resources of the State. WYO. STAT. � 23-1-
302(a)(xvi). In order to protect the wildlife resources of the State, the legislature has enacted
many, many statutes requiring or forbidding certain activities which routinely occur on private
property. Some of those prohibited activities include hunting without a license, WYO. STAT.
� 23-1-101; fishing without a license, WYO. STAT. � 23-3-301; hunting without required colored
clothing, WYO. STAT. � 23-3-113; hunting on private property without landowner permission,
WYO. STAT. � 23-3-305; and exceeding the limits on the number, kinds, and sometimes
gender, of animals and fish to be taken. WYO. STAT. �� 23-3-101 through 109 and �� 23-2-
201 through 208. Additionally, licensees are required to produce their licenses for inspection
at the request of any authorized Department representative, and there are different licenses
34

Don't need a warrant to go on open lands, or even private land under the Constitution. The 4th Ammendment protects "persons, houses, papers, and effects," from searches without warrants. Not land. And a special waiver is made for "open fields,"

A GW or anyone else needs a warrant (or exigent circ.) to go into a house etc. Or a car. In most states, the game in theory was stocked by the state, and is regulated by the state.

To those who feel the GW's actions were justified, do you feel the same for what Janet Reno did at Waco and Ruby Ridge?


After all, the law is the law(discretion be damned).

Did those at Waco or RR threaten to kill LEO's?

A GW in NC does not need a warrant or permission to search a vehicle if it is on Gamelands , just the fact that the vehicle is on Gamelands is all the cause the GW needs. There is a legal term for this , I'm not sure what it is

Mike

Yeah, this kinda' reminds of getting into a fist fight with police officers--it's a losing propostion to fight or threaten to kill an LEO.........

Now suing their azz is another thing......



Casey

If the GW's story doesn't play out, that's exactly what will happen. Just might even if it does!

I agree, the Warden should have walked away.

Alluding to "professionalism" is a 10X.

The Warden should be sanctioned and trashed from any further responsibility, at the very least.

I'm seein' this thread as running for 100 pages, easy.

My land is posted,.........

You'll note that I use the term "MY land",....

GTC

I'm sure it was understood.

Isaac, it's like trying to convince the homey's in the hood that the rich white folks ain't the cause of their problems...

There's a game warden involved, and so it's automatically going to be his fault. Cause all them game wardens got this BIG old chip on their shoulder and are after all of the honest hunting folks...


Only on the campfire will everybody agree that a person has the right to shoot a home invader rather than run away out the back door and leave their possessions to be stolen.

Only on the campfire will almost everybody agree that a guy who pulls a rifle and shoots a couple of gangbangers through the roof of their car as they drive away did a good thing.

And only on the campfire will a lot of folks say that, despite the only evidence available, a game warden did the wrong thing and should be hung or jailed because he didn't run away from an old man who threatened violence.

http://www.wxii12.com/news/19168167/detail.html

An old man on his own property where the offense at hand was a misdemeanor for possibly hunting turkey over bait.


What wouldn't you justify an agent of the govt to do?

Why heck yes, Bob, that old boy might just wind up richer than two foot up a bull's butt.

'Course the fact of him being dead might take all the fun out of it.


(Just jerking your chain buddy. )

BCR

Nope, I'm not one that is quick to snap at LEO's. If one can't see the difference between the scenarios you are presenting then I think you had better not venture into the woods with a gun.


Professionalism is a dying art. Every situation must be weighed as to what is to be gained and what can be lost. Methinks that wasn't the situation, but I'm just guessing.

You conveniently glossed over the part where the old man threatened to shoot the Game Warden.
Whether I would have a problem with a Game Warden coming onto my property and interrupting my hunt is one thing, but threatening to shoot him? I would fully expect to be drawn on and have the option of trying to shoot him or be shot! I'm not seeing where the option of shooting him leaves me in a good position.

Old man in tree after 15 minutes of WHATEVER the GW was saying to him says something he shouldn't. GW should have left when he realized the situation was getting heated and returned at a later time (the old man wasn't likely to run to Mexico).

Old man climbs down ladder rope (apparently with gun still in his hands). According to GW old man said if he has to come down he is going to shoot him or something of that ilk. So whilst old man is climbing down why couldn't the GW take the old man down?

If a dude can't figure out how to get the better of a 76 year old man hanging onto a ladder rope he shouldn't be wearing a gun.

So many states give the bunny cops such unlimited power that it is no small wonder when these things happen. They are nearly untouchable, and they act the part..

The license checks here in Texas have always been really great, positive experiences (Probably a dozen times.). The pricks up in Wisconsin are the most surly, JBT, azzholes. It's like they are from another planet.

This latest hero will likely get a medal for whacking the uncooperative old bastid.... [bleep] awesome..

In my backwoods opinion, the biggest tragedy here is that the 'ol man didn't carry out his threat.


I don't think much of a govt that treats a man's private property as their own nor do I care for an agent of the govt who would use deadly force for a misdemeanor on private property.


The govt has extended it's heavy hand too far but unless they attempt to go home to home taking our guns, people will sit idly by and let the govt do as they please.

Threatening to kill a LEO ain't a misdemeanor, trips!

Nor is threatening a private citizen, hard saying how it went.

I know but that's what the LEO was originally there for.

Thats because Wisconsin is another planet, don't ya know .

No offense to anyone, I've been to Wisconsin more than once, its a nice state!

Well have only read the first page of the thread, and although the facts are not known, I wonder if it doesn't come down to the guy being predisposed to be angry at the law.

If it were my land I would like the fact that the fish and Game were keeping an eye open over my property, but attitude is just that, and maybe he didn't like the wardens tone or demeanor, or maybe he just doesn't like wardens..

Much is made from the article about the guy being on his own land, not sure if the officer knew that to be fact, or if that should matter, not knowing the game laws of the state. I guess it is always possible he popped him for no reason, but won't even speculate on that.

Some of the Wardens are pretty bad in WI, prob. like a lot of places.

Well look at it this way. He threatened to kill a peace officer while he was carrying a firearm, propably would have cost him some time in the pen. He very likely could have died while still in prison. At least he died in a place he loved.

Bill

..or maybe said turkey hunter had your disposition. Sounds to me chances are that an encounter with yourself and a game warden, more than likely wouldn't be too pleasant for said game officer.

Maybe it wouldn't be a stretch to guess that it wouldn't take much for a game warden to push your button either, whether intentional or not..

Janet Reno didn't have anything to do with Ruby Ridge. That was GHWB's watch.

I don't know how this thing happened, but neither does anyone here. I will say if I expected trouble from a guy, I'd leave and call for help. However, if a 100 year old guy pointed a shotgun or rifle at me and threatened to kill me, I'd dust his ancient ass. I want to get old, too.

Here's hoping we are all lucky enough to be shot by a game warden whilst hunting in our favorite spot.

Nothing is documented as fact, so what can we say? In either a professional or casual experience though, anyone that threatens my life will be watched very carefully and not given any opportunity to follow through.

Heres another thought.

Everyone is carrying on about how the GW should have had enough experience and training to walk away and deal with the situation later. I neither agree or disagree with this because I wasn't there.

Did it ever occur that maybe 76 yrs of living should have provided enough training, experience and common sense to just come down , take his little ticket and go on about his business and then fight it in court rather than threatening a law enforcement officer?

Bill

Yep, except one needs to consider senility when dealing with a 76 year old person. Often times it's akin to dealing with a child.

That is a very good point, but we can't assume senility was a factor, nor can we assume that he didn't take it into account.

Sounds as if minds are made up no matter what the game warden's story is. In some peoples eyes he is either a murderer, or a lying murderer.

Since it's guessing season, what if the GW reached into his pack and pulled out the ticket book with the intent to write a ticket and leave it at that? The Old Man sees he's getting a ticket and threatens to shoot, while raising his gun? If the GW kills the Old timer in this scenario, it's murder in your book?

Mind isn't made up, what is made up is the tragedy of the situation based on one old man hunting over corn.

I'm thinking I would have given him a pass in the first place. Damn shame a man can't feed his family from his own land. God save the King.

Ranger1:

In recent years I've noticed a lot kids, mostly the hot headed boys, using the "I'm going to kill you" threat. These were not jokingly delivered, but had very serious overtones.

I'm 60+, and as kids we were instructed to NEVER utter such words. If I were to ever become that angry, I'd certainly not bother to give someone advance notice or oppotunity to turn the tables.

Our (Oregon) local school system now simply relays all such instances to the local law enforcement folks, and the offending kid/s get a visit.

Your right, except in this case the possible child was carrying a loaded weapon.

Exactly, that's why God invented Prudence.

When I said "some" was not referring to you, some others have already formed their opinion.

Let me ask you this, if this wasn't his property, say it was your property, would you want the warden enforcing the game laws on your property?

If the old guy proclaimed that he was the land owner, would it be out of line for the officer to verify that before deciding how to handle the situation?

Could be if the guy showed him proof that he was on his own land, maybe it goes on from there as you advocate, but maybe he proclaimed "I don't have to show you sheet".

Many hypothetical scenarios out there, chance he could be a cowboy and blew the guy away on a power trip, but then again that's what they said about the wardens Claude Dallas popped; but when the facts were in, it was the first encounter Dallas and the warden had ever had.

Yep.


I remember 6 years ago when a GW tried to give my 89 year old uncle a ticket for sitting on his swing and shooting groundhogs across the road(rural setting, dirt road).

What possesses some LEOs to force an issue for relatively minor offenses?

LOL.. The difference in experiences between my WIDNR and TPWD isn't me. One series of routine license checks has been positive and mutually respectful, the other... not so much. They have been over the same general time frame, as well, so, no bad ones while young and good ones while older. It is a difference in training and overall policies of 2 different states. I really don't expect someone like you to recognize the difference.

By the way, zero game citations in either state.

OK, I probably shouldn't ask, but define "someone like me." out of curiosity.

I'm not stating that I think the GW's are OK with coming on private land to do their jobs.
Threatening to shoot one, and expecting a good outcome is not very smart IMHO.
You can get all up in arms about the issue of GW/LEO and your rights all you want. I won't argue that.

One who blindly supports LE , no matter what absurd law is being enforcedand sees the killing of an old man on his own property as necessary to protect law and order.... There are a few of you here.

As opposed to someone who has had good and bad experiences with 2 polar opposite types of LE (During routine CHECKS, no laws broken) and can accurately recognize the difference. And who would also believe that this incident will never be accurately recounted, as the only witness is dead as a hammer... Over some corn. Tragic, but not for the reasons your type think.

It will take a through investigation to find out the actual facts in this case. Until then, I'm reserving judgment, but a game warden has the right to go on private lad to investigate any suspected game law violations.

You threaten a law enforcement officer at your own risk.

And they are always "suspicious" when they want to enter land.

Video of a Texas trooper trying to reason with a 72 year old motorist. I suspect the old timer was senile too for his actions over a belt violation. It appears the trooper tried to reason with the man when lead should've been flying. If the motorist was killed I imagine folks would have said he died for a belt violation.

The agonal breathing from the trooper is tough to listen too.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=4193273

Trooper:
http://www.odmp.org/officer/15433-trooper-randall-wade-vetter

Lucky for Malvin he wasn't hunting over corn, he would have been shot.

Amazing he didn't get shot for all of that, bad cops there.

There are so many unanswered questions. I have belonged to several hunt clubs in NC & hunted there for many years. In all these years only one club was visited by a warden & he found a hunter had not punched his tags after deer kills. The club was a checking station & the hunter wrote his tag numbers, date of kill, etc. in the log book. He still received citations & lost his temper with the warden. Fortunately, nothing lethal developed. My first question is why would the warden go onto private property(likely a small farm) with almost the certainty of finding only one violator? With all the hunt clubs one would think his time would be better spent. Did someone prompt the warden that the land owner was hunting over corn? In NC feeders are everywhere that deer is hunted. It is very easy to leave one on or even more so have corn still on the ground. Was the old man hunting over corn on purpose & aware that someone ratted him out to the warden & became even more mad. Most wardens are white could the old man have been black? I am not suggesting its an issue, but one of many unanswered questions. Did the old man shoot at the warden? Even if he did why wouldn't the warden ask for back up before shooting to kill? Many unanswered questions, but all seem to point to the warden being over aggressive. I just don't believe the warden just happened to go on this private land for a law breaker with so many bigger fish to fry.

I just knew something bad was gonna happen. I've been saying it for years now. I've always been afraid it was gong to be a game warden--ala Claude Dallas scenario. Now a man has been killed on his own property because a stupid situation escalated beyond control. Sad for everyone involved.

I remeber years ago when I enjoyed my meetings with conservation officers in the bush--especialy if I was on unfamirliar ground--like Wisconsin--or Virginia. I noticed several years ago that something changed and I don't think it was the hunters. Game wardens suddenly started power tripping and running rough shod over civil rights and civility. I know exactly when and why that happened in my own back yard but I hate to see it seems to be a universal phenomnem.

The game wardens of my youth aren't the ones we have today, in general.

Isaac

All I see here says "open fields." They can trespass on private property,other than that,only if they can prove that there are suspicious actions going on. The county sheriff or a state patrolman may, but not GWs.

A very good friend manages a large ranch in Wyoming and he will not allow GWs on the property. Only with a warrant or with the sheriff, but not to "investigate."

I am very well acquainted with one of the GWs there and he has confirmed what my ranch manager friend has told me. I witnessed
this GW being verbally attacked by two men , on natl forest land, but he backed off some and reasoned with them. This had escalated far enough that I had my .45 ready to help the guy but he did a great job. Never even charged them with anything but assured them that if it ever happened again there certainly would be a different ending. They apologized for their actions and left, almost friends.

I think the situation with the GW and the landowner could have been resolved had the GW not wanted to exercise his power. Maybe so; maybe not.

Ivan

Man, I hope not. Them guys would REALLY be old now>

About your age I'm guessing......

So then you believe I support what happened at the Oakland train station as good police work?

Supporting LE is quite different than advocating not jumping to assumption or conclusion which is usually what I advocate. To those predisposed to dislike LE (as some of your posts would indicate) I guess it would seem that by giving them the benefit of the doubt before the facts are in would make me as you described.

As far as all of my experiences with LE going OK, hell, I just don't know what to say, I can't explain that, but never thought some would see that in a negative light. You are wrong however to believe I see no bad cops out there, I just don't have a predisposition to convict without having the facts.

I don't know that this cop isn't a bad cop with an authority trip any more so than you don't know that upon being asked for information this old guy didn't tweak.

You are assuming this was about hunting above a pile of corn? I wonder if it was about providing identification, who knows.

I do find a double standard around here, very rare for me to hear avocation of turning the other cheek, or walking away from trouble when members here believe themselves to be in the right, but almost expect it from another if he is LEO.

In other words, how many advocated turning the other cheek and walking away instead of forcing entry into the Marine Recruitment Center out in Alameda? How many advocated ignoring "Code Pink" and coming back another day and how many thought the cops handled in right when they stood by and allowed the doorway blocked in an effort not to escalate? Seems to me it was against the law to block that doorway, but when the cops let it happen instead of escalating the situation I heard anger.
I thought I heard cheers for those who knocked the peace weenies down & pushed their way in and risked an escalation of violence.


Not saying you are wrong about this warden, I'm saying I don't know who was in the wrong, that is the point I almost always push, you interpret that as blind support..

Might be. My next B'day will be no. 75. Pretty good, huh?

As the saying goes I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by six. A 76 year old man with a gun is more dangerous than the Heavyweight Champion of the World.

Once a gun is pointed, the Hunting Over Bait charge is a world away from what is happening at the moment.

We don't know who was wrong and who was right, if the GW was defending himself or not. If he doesn't have a record of shooting people, it's likely he was...but we don't know.

It's a damned shame.

In a nutshell. No disagreement here.

Read the comments on the story that was linked. A few things from the comments: Apparently, the old man was deaf as a post; The game warden in question is a noted prick with lots of complaints in the area; and,the game warden had just checked another family member who told him where the old man was and told him that he was practically deaf. In fact, the other family member asked to go down there with the GW when he checked the deceased's license, but because of a bad back, he had to go get into a truck and drive. The game warden wouldn't wait on him.

And only one shot was heard by all parties in the area.

I like it when the GW's pull up to my boat on the lake when i am fishing. This to do their license checks, flotation devise checks, etc etc.

It meant that prior to them pulling up i was catching fish. It never fails that they'll check the wife and i when we're on fish.

Hmmm? Reminds me of my grandma feeding the turkeys when I was a kid. Probably a third of "her" turkeys were the white domestic kind, the rest just wandered in from the hills and joined up of their own accord. After years of feeding all of them, another third or so were hybrids. Now I'm wondering which ones the state owned? She wasn't too particular about which ones she butchered (she didn't use a tree stand or anything--but she did use corn and would just grab one that got close enough when it was turkey dinner time). She was an onery old cuss too, I'm sure she would of told a game warden off as well. Lucky for her she made it to 97 years old at the ranch without ever having to have a showdown with a warden trying to sell her the turkeys that she figured she already owned!

I really should clarify something. I sincerely believe that much of the overall problem is due to the ungodly quantity of absurd laws that LE from fish cops to state troopers are tasked with "enforcing" by the revenue agents who decide to fine for these infractions. Seatbelt and other nanny laws, corn on your own property, random checkpoints, hidden speed limit signs, etc, etc.

Couple this with the we vs. they attitudes that these "laws" promote and you have entirely too many interactions over the most ridiculous reasons. Some are bound to go bad when folks have had enough of it and the nanny state gains power. The trooper who was shot during a seatbelt stop in the video above was painful and awful to see and hear, as is the death of an old man who was accosted on his own property for corn.

When there are "Comply at all costs" rules of engagement and absurd quantities of ridiculous laws, the costs will be high, sometimes for the "lawbreaker" and sometimes for the "enforcer". The actual culprits are insulated by those who hire others to do their dirtywork.. Expect much more of it as the various levels of government seek to maintain their current revenue stream from folks who are losing jobs, houses, etc.. We're seeing a taste lately, but it will get worse. It goes much deeper than simply a wardon with an attitude or a lawless corn hunter...

Ouch!


Doesn't paint the GW in a very good light.

Don't leave out the worst crime of all; a kid walking down the street smoking a cigarette.

Yep. The parent should whup the kid's azz, but there's a bunch of laws against that, as well....

Just can't win.

Game Wardens are not immune to the 4th Amendment. Some States try, and it will carry until challenged. Texas used to be one of them. I wouldn't want to be a Game Warden.

Why would I read comments there when I have comments here?

I am supposed to believe that the old dude couldn't hear and that is what led to this escalation?

"Can I see some Identification"
"What?"
"Can I see some Identification"
"What?"
BOOM!


No matter what the facts are, no matter what his version of the story is, you have the guy convicted already. I just wonder why he didn't take him out of the stand instead of asking him to come down, would have been a lot more fun watching him fall after plugging him. (exaggeration disclaimer)

We have found common ground, friend.

That is because there are no facts beyond the old man drawing down on him as soon as he walked up that could justify it. Anything else, and the game warden was wrong. The old man doesn't want to come down, walk away and give him a ticket later. The old man is getting belligerent, walk away and give him a ticket later.

And [bleep] yeah, the fact that the old man couldn't hear a damn thing and was probably yelling at the game warden like most deaf old men do, could have definitely contributed to the situation.

My dad would probably still be trying to figure out what the game warden was saying to him if he had been in that situation.

That there is spot on.

General question? How many of you live in states where any sworn & certified LEO can enforce game laws?

If you don't have the right to say who does and who does not come onto your property,...it's not your property.

It's just that simple.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In this state the TWRA officers have to possess a BA in Fisheries or Wildlife Mngmt. they then go to the state LE Acad.

We don't have a seperate enforcement Div. from the biology Div. The TWRA men/women make less then a highway patrolman, who isn't required to have a college degree. In this state the TWRA isn't state budget funded.

Well it sounds like you have it all figured out, hopefully somebody from the DA's office will contact you and we can get this guy behind bars before he waxes a little girl catching butterflies this spring.

I don't know all the facts on how it went down(and never will), but I have dealt with cranky old men before and it tends to take an aggressive individual to get them going. Hell, I'm turning into a cranky old man myself, LMAO. To my way of thinking, if the 76 year old man was that violent, and an aggressor, he wouldn't be out hunting at 76, he'd either have been killed by someone already long ago, or in jail for killing someone. It doesn't paint the game warden in a very good light to me.

In Texas, a cop is a cop. We can enforce any law on the book. It is general practice to stay in your own jurisdiction however. I do the Penal Code. Game Wardens do the Wildlife Code, etc. When you cross the line, you call the appropriate agency.

Amen

Barak? Is that you?

Nope, I take them case by case.

Game Wardens attend the same academy as DPS (Highway Patrol) as part of the GW academy. The GW academy is actually longer than it takes to become a DPS officer. GW's have to learn all the same penal codes plus all the wildlife codes. GW's here are state police officers just like highway patrol, they do have assigned counties but their jurisdiction is everything inside state lines (except FED lands).

Did I get all that right Pat?

+1,

GTC

Of course it's not! We're all just "renting" remember? If you actually owned it, you could do as you please, period. If you want to really "own" something you better be ready, and able, to defend it.

Does GW=Gay Warden? LOL

In Colorado, I met a Hunter Safety Instructor that had to teach a class for the Rookie D.O.W. Officers. It's not real encouraging to think that some of the people that are out there to enforce hunting regulations haven't hunted. It's possible that some had to take it in Colorado because where they came from didn't require it, but isn't that somewhat rare these days?

I'm sure they exist, but I haven't met one who hunts yet.

That's your Department, .....no?

GTC

I have. One that helped me out with a flat tire, when the miserable factory lug wrench broke was a great kid. He was a good bobcat hunter and trapper from up north. He was kinda ticked at the State of Colorado for only allowing live traps on cats.

I'll correct myself. A Texas Game Warden from Leesville La, Nicest kid you'll ever meet.

Best one I've ever met was in Louisiana 20 years ago. Apparently he was the biggest 'outlaw' in several Parishes before becoming a game cop.

Use too be that a lot of Forest and Game Wardens in Alberta, and B.C. were retired / reformed Poachers,.....and great at their new chosen professions to a man.

.....and most of 'em still held trapping licenses.

All of 'em hunted.

SteelHead's right,....things WERE a lot different.

Our local crew in S.E. Az. seem to be real fine fellows, all hunters and rifle loonies. One's a guide, in his off hours.

GTC

It takes a thief. Lots of truth to tha saying.

So we should hire ex-cons for police officers?

That was like the second one I grew up knowing. I never had any encounters with him though.

So I can't say who comes on my property and I have to pay the govt yearly rent for life in the form of property taxes.


....what's the point of owning anything anymore?

Yep, but he was also a very level headed guy, great personality and the ability to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Lots of that has changed here, now. The Lower BC guys try to trick you with dumb azz questions, so they can try to search your vehicle. The North BC guts are still a decent bunch, at least the ones I run into. The AB guys, are not bad either. All of them have way too much area to cover.

R.

Of course not, but choir boys don't make good cops, of any genre. That's why the most exclusive agencies have the moxt laughable LEO's.

Couldn't agree more.

They made this guy a warden because they could never catch him, though they knew he was poaching. I'm not sure how much he really hunted...legally....after that. But, he was a good warden. He nailed quite a few people on some big issues.

My brother had a run-in with him for hunting without a parent or licensed adult with him. He was 16 and I think you had to be 18. Since I had moved away and my father had passed away, he was on his own for hunting. The sad part of it was that his hunting buddy's dad had passed away as well. He asked them both about where their fathers were. One saying he was dead was one thing, but when both said it, the warden thought he was getting a big story and so he reamed them pretty good.

When the other kid got home, he told his mother. She called the warden and chewed on him as only a mother can do. Didn't matter much, but was kind of humorous...in a sick sort of way.

So you can be shot while baiting turkeys in your Golden Years.

And shoot them before back up arrives so there aren't any credible sworn witnesses.
Sounds like Barney took it upon himself to put a real bullet in his gun whilst Andy was off to Raleigh and took command of the situation. Was Barney afraid the old man was gonna escape over state lines and hideout? Give em a Tazer and their excuses for using it quadruple.

Guys, you can complain about the laws allowing wardens onto your land all you want, but if you aren't writing to your state legislatures and getting out to start up a grass roots movement then you're all just a pissin and a moaning like a bunch of old ladies.

This is state laws that allow wardens on your land.. not federal. Get out there and change it if it's not what you want.

But if you draw down and kill a warden who's doing his duty, or even threaten him... he ain't the one in the wrong. Even if he is the 2nd biggest jerk in the state.

Steelhead: First of all, this was a tragedy, and in 20/20 hindsight, I agree the GW maybe could have avoided the outcome if he had backed off and/or waited for some backup. But I'm surprised at your responses here. You're in the Coast Guard, right? Last time I checked, they were in the law enforcement business. Let me ask you this. If you were commanding a coast guard vessel, and came upon an old man in a fishing boat who was dumping used motor oil into the ocean or something of that nature - and he took offense to the intrusion, told you to [bleep] off, and then threatened to shoot if you didn't leave immediately - how would you respond to that situation? I realize it's not private land, but as you said, the law is the law... Just curious. By the way, this is from someone who thought Bill Pogue got what he deserved from Claude Dallas....

We only have the game warden's word that ANY "threats" were made by the old man. It is possible the old man didn't threaten the game warden at all! The game warden COULD be lying to save his fanny from being charged with "murder"!

And even if the old man DID threaten the game warden, there's plenty of time to bring the old guy to "justice" LATER... when cooler heads prevail.

I'm not saying the old man did NOT threatened the game warden, but even if he did, you don't kill a man or create the "situation" when it is NECESSARY to kill a man over turkey hunting over bait, even if doing so is illegal. The turkey's life is NOT as "precious" as the human being's life.

The game warden should have use "reasonable discretion" and "backed off", called for back up and possibly even a police "negotiator" to come in and talk "sense" to the old man.

Had he done so, the old man would have still be alive and a family's collective hearts wouldn't be broken.

I don't say what the old man did was either "right" or "smart"... and that is IF, IN FACT, THE OLD MAN ACTUALLY DID WHAT THE GAME WARDEN CLAIMED HE DID... but, as I said before, "You don't kill a man over illegally hunting turkeys"... PERIOD!!!

And you don't "push" a situation until it gets out of control... which is what the game warden did.

Had the game warden backed off, they could have come back a day or a week or even a MONTH later and arrested the old man... but, instead, the old man's family had to BURY him... not a very good "trade", n'est pas?!?

IF the old man actually did "threaten" the game warden, then he was terribly WRONG to do that... but, again, HIS death was unnecessary and had the game warden used good judgement and a "cool" head, the whole mess could have been AVOIDED.

Sometimes, "the authorities" simply resort to "excessive force" and do the WRONG thing as well. I'm thinking of the situation in Waco, Texas with the Branch Dividians... and I'm thinking of Ruby Ridge... and, undoubtedly, hundreds or even THOUSANDS of other cases across the United States where bad judgement and/or excessive force has been used by "the authorities".

In BOTH cases, "excessive" force was used and a lot of people died as a result... and it did NOT have to happen. The Ruby Ridge mess cost us taxpayer $5,000,000.00 to "settle" it.

That was the amount of the "award" the U.S. Senate paid out to the man whose his wife and 14 year old son were shot and killed by the BATF agent's bullets as a result of Janet Reno's and the BATF's "bad judgement" and their combined use of "excessive" force.

I firmly believe in "law & order" and in obeying the lawful commands of peace officers and even the lawful commands of game wardens.

But ya don't kill a man over a $#@%*&$* turkey or for hunting turkeys over bait!

You "fine" him and/or you even put him in jail for a short time, but YOU DON'T KILL HIM or allow a "situation" to esculate to the point where it is necessary to kill him.

'Nuff said...

We can't be sure that it was necessary the GW used excessive force, but neither can we be sure that it wasn't. What really bothers me is that so many automatically assume that the Game Warden could have done something different to prevent this tragedy, or was covering his butt by lying. Because the dead man's age was 76 is still no indication that he wasn't likely to follow through with violence. I've seen some mean old SOB's that were lucky to still be alive.

If you dont want to get shot,dont threaten a LEO.I dont care if it is your land or not.Pretty [bleep] simple concept.

Yes, pretty simple concept, agreed.

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That's very true, most folks on here it seems are so worried as to what the Fed's are doing. They may have no idea as to the laws in their own state. This along with the laws that are in the process of being passed within that state. The same with your own city or county commission passing laws and ordinances in your communities.

I am really overly surprised at the number here who backed up the game warden.

When this case goes to court, and it will, any one on the jury should have this mental attitude. GUILTY OF MURDER OR YOU WOULDN'T BE HERE. Case closed, next.

PRIVATE PROPERTY
a cop doesnt have the right to come onto private property without cause, reasonable suspision or consent from the property owner.
So unless the 76 year old man called the GW, unless the GM could see the corn from his truck, or unless the GW had a CI who swore under oath that the 76 year old man was baiting then the GW had no right to be on the property.

How come we have a different set of rules for land and wildlife than we do for homes and other crimes.

Do any of the people who agree w/ the GW think that cops should be able to walk into someones house without a warrant, without consent and without probable caue or reasonable suspicion and open thier safe and run the serial numbers on thier weapons?

So whats the difference.
Private property is private property.
it doesnt matter if its your bedroom or your back 40.

A reasonable expectation of privacy includes not having police officer wandering around you propety whenever they see fit.
Its a hunting season all the time for something.

Most of the game wardens I know or have come in contact with should not be allowed to carry weapons. Period!

There were 2 Border Patrol agents incarcerated for a less egregious offense.

I appreciate the analogy but in my 25 years I can't recall a single shooting incident of another individual and I'm guessing we've had quite a few more 'encounters' than a single NC game warden.

So all of ya'll figure ya'll should be allowed to poach turkeys,as long as its your property? I guess you should be able to rape any wimmen that should wander on to yer place too. :-)

Well you have to admit, an armed CG patrol boat or cutter is going to have a bit more intimidation factor than a lone game warden... so the analogy may not be the best, but my point is, I would expect that if anyone were to point a weapon in a threatening manner at a CG vessel - there's a reasonably good chance they would be fired upon....and not just with warning shots. Not only that, but it doesn't seem likely that said vessel would vacate the area while the agitated individual calms down. I'm all for restraint and good judgement in any law enforcement officer, however.

I could care less if a man shoots a deer in June if it's to feed his family.

I'm thinking we wouldn't banter for 15 minutes, and to further the analogy the old man dumping said oil would need to climb the Jacob's ladder with a gun clutched in his hands to carry out the threat he made about shooting, so long as we are sticking with the original story.

Again obviously the whole story needs to come out. I'll leave it to the legal system.

But it won't come out and that is the problem. The case will be investigated by other law enforcement officers who will be friendly to the GW and any unfavorable facts will be conveinently ignored. But even were the investigation completely impartial and thorough, and it may well be, it will all come down to the GW saying, "He said he was going to shoot me and I felt threatened" and that will be that. The GW is the only one who survived to give any testimony.

As long as we give law enforcement officers the unquestioned right to use deadly force in all situations and absolve them of all responsibility as long as they articulate a perceived threat, then they have in effect a license to kill.

Sometimes that is just the way it has to be. But, in instances where it appears that the LEO exacerbated the confrontation in a non felony situation, we need to seriously reevaluate what we are doing. The old man did not get killed because he made a threat to a GW out of the blue. He got killed because he allegedly got into an argument with a GW in which he allegedly made a threat to a GW ABOUT A DAMN TURKEY . Take away the argument and it doesn't happen.

ringworm asks.....>How come we have a different set of rules for land and wildlife than we do for homes and other crimes.<


The way it was explained to me is that wildlife belongs to all the people of the state, not the person upon whose land it is presently standing. They give game wardens wide latitude to enter upon people's property because their job is to protect the the wildlife belonging to the people of the state, where ever it is standing at a given time.

It chaps a lot of asses that GWs have that discretion to go where they want but I dont see it changing. I had a GW come into a camp once while I was away and open my camper door and look in. I almost lost my dog because the idiot didnt get the door latched back properly and the dog got out.

Like any line of work there are some damn fine people doing it and some total jackasses.

On another occasion I was talking to a GW at a road block where they were trying to snag some moose poachers. He gave me a pointer on a good place to go for mule deer. I tried it. Saw no other hunters and shot a big muley buck.

I think the demarcation line has been fairly well drawn as to this debate.

I hope the original poster keeps us updated.

do you think GM's should be able to violate the US constitution
or do you think that if a turkey wanders onto my property all of the sudden my protection against unreasonable search and siezure are waived?

GW's don't need a warrant to come onto land. Try to keep up, Ringworm.

I'm with Ringworm on the Constitutional issues. I also understand the emotions involved with the death of an old man hunting. I will take issue with the ludicrous idea that "small" crimes should never escalate into a deadly force situation. If that were the case, none would be enforcable.

Cop...Sir, I'm stopping you for running that red light.

Mr.Smith...Officer I've got a gun, and I'll kill you if you write me a ticket.

Cop...Nevermind.

i assure you i am aware of what the "law" says.
what i am attempting to bring to light is the fact that ITS FKING WRONG!!!

do you own land?
do you have any idea what ownership means?
how abot the concept of reasonable expectation of privacy?
Why do GM have the right to trespass anytime, day or night with no reasonable suspicion whatsoever?

ringworm, do you understand that it's STATE law that grants this to game wardens? If you don't like it, work on changing it! The fact that NC allows wardens to enter the land is their choice.. unless you live there, your thoughts on the issue just don't matter. If you do live there, contact your legislature.

But if you live in a state, you'd better abide by state laws. Don't like it? Change it or move to a state that has better laws. Nebraska doesn't allow wardens to enter private land withouot probably cause, or (despite what I was told by one warden) does it allow wardens to enter a dwelling without a search warrant. Cars, barns, etc. though are all fair game.

i assure you i am aware of what the "law" says.
what i am attempting to bring to light is the fact that ITS FKING WRONG!!!
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OH! And what have you affirmatively done in regards changing it as opposed to merely biching about it on an internet forum?

Biching is easy!

Because there clientele are usually not the type to push the matter, and the mundane nature of the laws enforced don't tend to get any attention. I guess if a warden ever stumbles across somebodys wife in the freezer, instead of an undersized possom, we'll find out.

In a nut shell !!!!

I'm coming to this discussion late, it took me a long time to read all the way through it.

As Calhoun mentioned earlier, if people disagree with the laws as they are written then they should be taking steps to approach the legislators to request changes.

Unless something has slipped my mind not one poster who supported the "old man" said they were planning to do this. So much for their commitment!

I have run into GW's who lacked people skills and admittedly there seems to be more of them lately. The result for me and my hunting partners is, however, to scrupulously follow the regulations. Talking back to anyone having enforcement powers is asking for trouble.

The guys age has nothing to do with it. If he couldn't control his temper he shouldn't have been allowed out of the house with a gun in his hands.

And before anyone gets too critical of me I'll point out my age is a few years over 70. In spite of this I do not support the guy who got shot, if the facts as given are correct.

JMO - Jim

"As long as we give law enforcement officers the unquestioned right to use deadly force in all situations and absolve them of all responsibility as long as they articulate a perceived threat, then they have in effect a license to kill."

Obviously you know that's not true. You're posting on emotion.
The threat you mention doesn't work all the time, maybe more so 20 yrs ago but not in today's day and age of cell pics and cams. Ask Nevers and Budzyn. Or maybe the BART cop when his day comes.

This entire situation is tragic. An old fella is dead and not coming back. Some have mentioned to pull back and meet him at the house. Who's to say he wouldn't be even more fierce in his stance there? I'd wager he'd be even less inclined to have his this encounter at home.

++++++++++++++++++++

I'm trying to get a handle on this "imminent danger to the public" and the man was "killed over baiting turkeys". Neither are relevant nor factual. The old man, if the GW's recitation of facts are proven true, threatened to take the life of an LEO with the use of a firearm. Imminent danger to the public doesn't have a rat's ass to do with anything. Further, his threat and, perhaps, an overt action in furtherance of his threat to kill an LEO was what this was about and attempting to segue this into a death merely over a turkey is nonsensical, at best.

NEW TWIST.........See if you think of the warden now.

A witness to the shooting was a 10 year old grandson.
This is what is beening said by a friend of a family member who is there pastor...
The boy was going to see what the yelling was about,he was about 50 yards away and told the SBI.The game warden was pointing a gun at grandpaw tring to get him to come down the tree,he was tring to climb down and he kept saying,ok,ok clam down I'm trying..the warden kept saying drop your gun,old man kept saying I can't,I can't,Went he got on the ground he shot.Walk up and looked at him and started talk on a radio...
The old man never droped the gun like the warden ask...it was tied to his wrist with a shoe string!!!

IMO:the warden just wanted to show who was boss and took it to the limit.The same warden was in trouble 2 years ago for pull a old man out of the truck.VIA...the window because he was spot lighting,he and his wife we driven on there land looking for there dog.Hit the man a few times with a flash light and put the cuffs on his wife.

Cops have changed,when I was growing up I was around them all the time they ate at my mom and dad resturant.I would go fishing every year on opening day of trout season with them.They were like family.I have no record of any kind other than for the Game Warden.But the cops today are little kids that was picked on in school and now have the POWER.They are not trying to make a change,they are on an ego trip.Here in NC jobs are being lost every day,money is tight and the new Hwy Cop in his eary 20 wrote 72 seat belt tickets at 125.00 each the two days on the job...that caused a hard ship with some people.The law is Black and white,but there is a gray area in witch we live.

I for one can not side with the Warden and people that know the old man want.They have been death threats againest him and his family to the point that they may go in to hiding.In the county this happened the people are very clanish and lots of redneck type.And if they knew the man are not,they are looking at it as a way to kill a cop.Bad deal all the way around...

If that is factual, that jack azz needs to go become friends with Bubba in the NC State prison. I would tend to believe a 10 year old kid talking to a preacher. Les

If what you posted is factual, then that warden deserves to fry.

Our game wardens have expanded search & seizure so that they can look for game in obscure places.. like an extra pheasant in your glove box, a fish in your waders, etc.

Over the years this has allowed officers to abuse the 4th amendment.

In California F&G now also protect non-game species and streams, habitat,etc.

They have evolved into a super cop agency that is used to spank large companies and ranchers over stupid laws. A rancher can not legally remove willows from a stream anymore or face F&G citation.

Too bad. They really have a lot of great officers.

If the boy articulated this factual scenario to both SBI and the preacher,with articulated precision to both versions, then the scales are tilting in the other direction at this juncture.

The boy was standing there in full view when the GW shot,huh?

Whooo boy, A lot of opinions without many facts disclosed on the case one way or the other. There's only assumptions. This is no better than a lynch mob, except it is impossible to "physically" lynch someone over the web.

Here's my 2 cents for exactly what it's worth:

1) A law that is not enforced is not a law. It is a wish. IF the evidence shows that it was poaching, the officer had every right to be there and to issue a citation on the spot (Whether it was prudent is entirely different). And as to prior knowledge of the poaching... I would assume that there must have been some probably cause because he ended up at the right spot at the time that the deceased was there. (Not sure whether to call the guy Victim, Poacher, or Hunter at this point)

2) I believe in property rights, up to the point that activity happening on one piece of property should not infringe on the adjacent property owners. If you're baiting and poaching game on the 20 acres adjacent to mine, you're just as good as stealing from me and the other property owners. The law allows for a game warden to enter the property and I am OK with that. He's protecting the public's interest in the game.

3) The shooting wasn't over turkey poaching. Something else happened and we don't know "what" until the investigation is done. Don't flame the rhetoric by saying that the guy was killed over a turkey.

4) When approached by a LEO or GW, it's best to open the action you have on any gun in your hand and control your muzzle. It's not a law, it's just good common sense.

5) Let's leave the age of the landowner out of it. It doesn't matter if he was 16 or 76 does it? By all accounts, the guy can climb up and down a rope ladder so we know he wasn't feeble.

The only thing we can infer from the accounts is that it seems common sense was lacking by one or both parties. Until we know more, I'm calling this "unsolved".

Our game wardens have expanded search & seizure so that they can look for game in obscure places.. like an extra pheasant in your glove box, a fish in your waders, etc.

Over the years this has allowed officers to abuse the 4th amendment.

In California F&G now also protect non-game species and streams, habitat,etc.

They have evolved into a super cop agency that is used to spank large companies and ranchers over stupid laws. A rancher can not legally remove willows from a stream anymore or face F&G citation.

Too bad. They really have a lot of great officers.

Motive, opportunity, & intent =violation.

Intent being the big one.

Lots of times that is only discerned in court by a judge after the citation was written!

A lot of hearsay in that. "I heard that a preacher said that a 10 year old said to the state investigators..."

If true though, that warden needs to be put away.

It is true if there is no one to contradict the story or a convenient cell phone pic or the like.

My point is simply this, if a the original crime in and of itself would not justify deadly force to stop its commission, then any shooting arising out of a stop should not be justified either.

If a guy runs a red light and is stopped by the cop and says "Screw you copper, you're not writing me a ticket" the cop should say, "Fine, go on you way". Then the cop writes the guy a citation and it is mailed to him. If the guy then doesn't show up for court, a bench warrant for his arrest will be issued and he can be arrested. By so doing, the majesty of the law is protected and enforced and a possibly tense situation with tragic consequences is avoided. The ONLY THING damaged is the ego of the original arresting officer.

Coss....you know a capias can't be issued for failing to show up in court to answer to a traffic citation other than DWI and reckless driving. Well,I should say at least they can't in Va.

A cop witnessing a misdemeanor committed in his presence should just yield and allow that person to drive away merely to avoid a possible escalated confrontation? You're speaking TIC,right?

So.. according to Cossatotjoe we need to remove the use of deadly force from any situation in which there will only be one surviving witness?

Joe, you going to give up all your firearms and knives so that you can't defend yourself in your house? Because if you kill an intruder, we'd have to take your word on it that he was a threat. Can't have that.. why, that's just giving you a "LICENSE TO KILL"!!!

Doh!

They can here. Are you saying warrants won't be issued at all, or just a warrant whereby they actually go out and get the guy as in a Capius?

A cop witnessing a misdemeanor in his presence should not drive away. He should take what steps necessary to issue a citation either in person or at a later date via mail or other means. He should in no circumstances escalate a situation by demanding compliance with a potentially intractable subject.

Are you saying warrants won't be issued at all
________________

Not for non DWi or reckless driving cases. Here, they will merely try you in your absence, find you guilty and jack up the fine. If the fine isn't paid within 15-18 days, you get a notice from the DMV stating your license to drive is suspended.

That generally gets the matter the attention it originally deserved.

But no, they want issue a warrant/capias here for non-serious traffic offenses for a failure to appear.

Well, they will here. But what is the difference? In either case the guy who drove off from the cop after running the red light in our hypothetical scenario did not escape the long arm of the law. He will either be arrested at some point, or he will have his license suspended and lose the privilege to drive.

It is good to see that the good people in the mountains of NC still have some backbone and know how to take care of business.

The outcome as it was seems worst than the infraction and the taking of someones life is the ultimate punishment but it didn't start that way.
Many people get excited and when confronted with a possible citation over react and make irrational statements, most of these statements are not intended but are indicators of a person's state of mind which police are trained to deal with. If a cop backs off every time an individual makes some threatening statement no one would obey the laws. I am quite certain that the statements made by the individual where not taken 100% serious since if he did he would have retreated and came back with additional manpower, the rule of thumb for police is a handgun is self defense weapon not an offensive weapon, not to mention he was out gunned facing a shotgun at close range. There is not much one can do when someone threatens you, has the ability to do great harm and makes an overt act to do this great harm, the rule of the jungle takes over,...KILL or be KILLED, anyone of us having to chose would have to make the same decision. In many of the wars this country has had young children both boys and girls and women have been aggressors, would you let them kill or injure you or your family because They don't seem the type of person that can do great harm....think about that

It is an unfortunate situation that will happen again just make certain it's not you, in our society the police have the right away, court is the avenue you need to take to correct a wrong if one has occurred not the street

Over the years this has allowed officers to abuse the 4th amendment.

Here the local cops team up with the warden and use that to shake people at the river partying.Lots of drug bust made on people just down at the river burning a joint.
Warden comes in starts looking for fishing poles and finds a bag of weed,then the locals take over....The Game Warden can do that.The locals must ask before they look and all you say is NO YOU CAN"T and they have no right,but the Game Warden can.
I think that this should be changed,if it is not a game&fish matter.He should have no right in it at all(execpt a life be in danger)Not using him for a pot bust.Opps I gusee you how know why I dislike the game warden here so much....

Actually the any law enforcement officer not only has the right to seize anything illegal when they come across it he is obligated to and turn it over to the appropriate authorities for prosecution. If something is done by him illegally it will be deemed "fruit of the poison tree and will be thrown out like getting a confession before giving them their constitutional rights which is the dumbest thing ever made into law IMHO

Many drug haulers are stopped on minor traffic violations and something said done or not said or done triggers probable cause that a crime has or is being done which following proper protocol leads to the eventual seizure and arrest.

It is the game of criminals, roll the dice pay the price.

If you haven't done anything than you have nothing to fear but fear itself

"If a guy runs a red light and is stopped by the cop and says "Screw you copper, you're not writing me a ticket" the cop should say, "Fine, go on you way". Then the cop writes the guy a citation and it is mailed to him. If the guy then doesn't show up for court, a bench warrant for his arrest will be issued and he can be arrested. By so doing, the majesty of the law is protected and enforced and a possibly tense situation with tragic consequences is avoided. The ONLY THING damaged is the ego of the original arresting officer."

That would be some incredibly shoddy police work. Andy Taylor himself would agree. It's not uncommon for a really bad scumbag to play it cool and it takes someone to investigate to weed them out.

Actually this is being done already in many cities with traffic cam, one day you get a traffic violation in the mail for running a red light with a picture of you license plate, now what if you loaned your car to a friend and he was driving whose license is going to get the points, whose insurance will go up and so . The headache on the innocent party is overwelming, at least when a cop stops you there is no question who is at the wheel plus he will check to see if you are drunk have proper insurance stuff that protects everyone esle and get this he did it to himself by breaking the law seems to me the system works fine for the people who follow the law

2 weeks ago I was in South Carolina--by way of North Carolina and spent a couple of days in Virginia. I used to guide a lot of bearhunters from the area around Wilkes county. Much of my discussions with the local people concerned a couple of game wardens acting like jerks in Southwest VA. I stated my opioion that the 4th amendment wasn't abjorgated by state law and rather than argue with a Conservation Officer--especially over something as mundane as a baiting law--they should just remain silent. If you get a ticket-- argue it in court. These guys all knew that I succesfully argued a ticket in court and won on a bogus charge. It cost me a couple of grand to fight a $103 ticket but I knew I was right and was just being harassed by the game dept.
Before I came on here yesterday I got a call from Southwest Va. The story I got was more similiar to what Heavy Metal told but I didn't want to repeat something unverified.
Heavy Metal also alluded to the clanish nature of many of these people resident in Wilkes co. I have no doubt that officer Minton is in grave danger. I pray that no more violence occurs.

There are many laws that are ridiculous and need to be overturned and there are many cops that shouldn't be cops but cops need to be aggressive so it benefits not to push there aggressive button. If a cop is out of control complaints that accumulate on that cop will get him relieved of duty.

Remember police and firefighters are one of the few if not the only strangers in our world who you can call and count on them helping you handle a problem that you can't handle. Same goes with are military personnel, they make our lives safe so we can live without fear.

Steelhead,

Mucho respect for your comments made on this thread. Sorry for being short with you the other night (I was in alcohol induced arsehole mode)...

More excellent legal advice from Cossatotjoe...

Can a 10 year old child testify in court in cases like this, particularly when he is related to the deceased and is potentially open to "manipulation" by the family??

As for the GW, he is a citizen and has the same fundimental rights as everybody else, one being the right to self defence and another being the right to be considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of Law..

I wasn't at the incident and don't what happened nor why...Nor do I know what the intentions of the GW when he approached the old gent.

Hopefully the truth will come out, and justice will be done, which ever direction that takes..

+



=

Don't know can't see the court taking a 10 year olds story in this case are any other and being a family member to boot.

Talk with the pastor again,they are tring to defuse the local rednecks.Last time a warden got on there bad side,they put a glass jar in a local bar and people put money in it and who ever kill the warden got the pot..Wasn't a sign on it or anything like that but everyone know the story.The warden moved to this county and later quit a went back home.You don't fire up Wilkes County rednecks to many to fight off.

That's pathetically disgusting!

Not you, HM, the townsfolk participating in that jar thing!

Collecting money for the murder of the GW is conspiracy to commit grave bodily injury or murder! normal courts would deal fairly rough on things like that. Wonder how many photos of contributors have been taken or how many paid informants are getting a peace of the pot
To passify the locals the state police of FBI should be brought in to investigate the shooting to determine if it was justified.

I know of no reason why the 10 year old wouldn't be allowed to testify assuming he passes a possible voir dire from the judge about "truth."

All I've ever said (I think) was that there was a better way to handle it. But this talk about aggressive cops need to be aggressive is just what I want a witness for the defense of the GW to say. Slam dunk for a big payday for the old guys family.

Would you want a "wimpy" cop showing up to protect you or your love ones no difference with military, Like they said the other day about the Navy Seals that negotiated a settlement with the pirates 4 out of 5 do not make it to the end of training, how many "wimps" do you think made it?

I'm trying to find the post where someone said "agressive cops need to be agressive"!

He's a [bleep] GAME WARDEN for Christ's sake.

I'd rather have a smart one. Maybe that not possible every time. Too bad for the dumb ones.

No I am not a GW, they could't pay me to do their job. Personally I think they should be detailed to homeland Security to enforce laws that really need to be enforced but until that happens everyone has to put up with it

Next time a GW rescues several hostages from a Somalian warlord I'll be all for them being Chuck Norris.

I take it you don't have to look any more.

I didn't say you are a Game Warden, you bring up Navy Seals, I say HE'S a game warden (referring to the one this entire thread is about).

Yep, more smarts would be an asset in many situations.

Yeah,I did. Wouldn't want that to be blurted out on the record, either.

Steelie, a game warden usually has the full powers of the police. In Nebraska he's the equivalent of a sheriff, with full powers thereof (actually, more powers).

They are also the ONLY law enforcement that typically faces off against armed violators as a typical part of their day. Ain't no other law enforcement on land OR SEA that has to work under those conditions. Most that I've run into have been great, and the ones that weren't were usually located in the middle of a bunch of rednecks who treated them like crap. You often get what you deserve.

I'm a Sheriff's Deputy and I'll tell you what, GW's are not squirrel cops. They work way out in the boonies without back up by themselves contacting the majority of possible suspects who are always armed and usually accompanied by other armed friends. They run into professional poachers who make big money in selling bear parts, deer horn velvet, marijuana growers and asian hunters who have a whole different culteral way reacting when contacted by Law Enforcement. And a lot of these people are cranked up.

I realize that their are a lot of chicken [bleep] GW's who don't understand the spirit of the law, just the letter of it. However, that's in all professions. DMV and the building Department come to mind. However, These GW's have balls for a ballsy job. A lot of you sound like you would have the GW take off running everytime they are threatened with being killed. Hell, let's see if we can get the F&G Department to put that in their policies and guidelines. Thet way when any of us are being pestered by one of these GW's we can use the magic words and they by policy will have to high tail it out of the area at once!

Being tired of this and trying to avoid going back to working on a certain tax return, I'd rather discuss why Pete E thinks a 10 year old eye witness shouldn't be allowed to testify. Just curious, not a challenge to anyone's manhood.

In my experience why would anyone subject a child to a court situation of examination cross examination and so on. Any prosecutor could get a child so confused that he wouldn't remember his own name, I'm sure if needed they would but it would be a last ditch effort

I've had 8 and 9 year olds testify. If, after voir, the child witness can articulate his understanding of truthfulness and that he has the cognitive capabilites to understand the questions and articulate an abilty to truthfully answer, they testify. But, I've also had 11 year olds who weren't permitted to testify.

It's discretionary with the court. There are plenty of people in prison due to the testimony of 8-10 year olds.

Like Christians, I'm certain there are plenty of great Game Wardens, but I've only ever met one (which is better odds than I've had with Christians)

No offense taken I just brought up Navy Seals to further the point of some strong personalities that do great things no different than that cop the other day that shot and killed that mad guy who started shooting up a church. It takes a brave (aggressive) person to run into a situation that every one else choses to run away from and I am sure the cop is not doing it for the bonus he will get, like those corporate execs do

It does, but I still don't think it takes a brave man to argue at end with a deaf old man perched in a tree and then shoot him when he hits the ground.

YMMV

Unfortunately the job of an attorney is to discredit a witnesses testimony or at the very least weaken it, things like that can scar a little child for the rest of their lives. I am sure some kids can take but some can't, those things have to be taken into consideration.

To exclude the only eye witness in a murder trial would require raising the bar mighty high. I was more surprised at the assertion, which perhaps I misunderstood, that such a witness wouldn't be allowed at all.

To the point of abusive direct or cross of a child, that is one reason a judge is there. It's not like it is on TV.

raamw

If you want to consider scarring a child for life, consider requiring them to testify in a child sexual abuse case. I know the miscreant must be stopped, but I think the cost to the victim in testifying is just as great as being a victim. However, I don't have a palatable solution to that.

The point if you allow belligerent people to break the law than only the decent people will get cited that is called stereo typing, we will only enforce the laws on the weak and timid

It's worse than that, they make you pay for the right to live on your own proprety.
Property tax.

I agree there should be special rules when a child is used and there is but it opens up the "mistrial" problems of restricting the cross and so on

Yes it does, but you also have the problem of a divorcing couple where one party makes such an accusation against the other for financial or custodial gain.

Hard cases make bad law.

Actually your property taxes are assesed by county entities that provide services

I agree I don't care for the right to trespass unless they have probable cause that a crime has or is being committed but the powers to be granted them that right and we will have to live with that until it is overturned or modified. All police have that right especially in the HOT pursuit" or eminent danger theory

Divorce is civil law and the level of proof to win is a preponderance of evident that something occurred criminal law is beyond a reasonable doubt which leaves very little question marks if any to get a guity prime example the infamous OJ Simpson, beats the criminal case of multiple murders but convicted in the civil case of those murders.

I am aware of the difference. Your point eludes me.

heavymetal,
are you fishing on the reservation or in NC waters?

What I actually said was:



Notice the question marks ?? It was a question not an assertion....I would think a good defence attorney would take a child part on the witness stand, especially in this case where he could raise questions about the childs impartiality ect...

Whether that is a legitimate legal approach, I don't know...And if it was, I don't know whether such an approach would in the end be counterproductive in front of a jury???

I don't have an opinion on the matter as I am not familiar with American Law nor the day to day workings of your courts, hence the question...

Gonna be a pretty short case, witness can't testify, shooter can't and shootie is dead.

Here's hoping a turkey saw it.

Yeah, but that's according to who? Oh yeah, the GW who's the only one still alive. But hey, no worries. A GW would never lie to cover his own ass. Right?



An excellent observation. I'd love to hear the GW's explanation of how a 76 year old man came down a rope ladder while somehow simutaniously holding a shotgun in such a menacing fashion that he felt like he had no choice but to open fire. Here's another thought. If the old man really intended to kill the GW why would he have to climb down to do it? What was he carrying on that turkey hunt that required him to get that close? A sawed off .410?



True. Pretty awesome power to hand people there. Want to kill everyone you don't like? Hey, then just become a GW and catch them in the woods on a hunt. "He threatened me your honor and he had a gun". "Good work son, you're free to go".



And you've conveniently glossed over the fact that we are taking the GWs word that the old man said that. What would you expect the GW to say? "F%$# him, he pissed me off so I shot the old basT#@#." Not likely! When you are only left with one side of a story you can bet your ass that story is gonna paint the lone survivor in the best possible light.



What's to stop him? All he has to do is say she threatened him.



We have had some game wardens here that hunted. Unfortunately they mostly hunted at night. I don't know what it is about the GW profession but they seem to have about 5 times more bad apples in their barrel than any other branch of law enforcement. Hell, we even had one here that planted a silencer in a guys house and got him sent to federal prison for 2 years. Why? Cause they were both screwing around with the same woman. One way to get rid of the competition I guess. Now I guess another way is to catch them near a corn pile and open fire.

I'm with you. But take out everything starting with "particularly" and you have my question. As I said, I wasn't challenging you.

Again just a question on my part..

In the England and Wales, a child must be of the the age of legal resposibility (1O years old) before they can be prosecuted in court. I was wondering if the reverse might be true ie they must be a certain age before they are considered old enough to be reliable in a criminal court???

Could a young childs testimony alone be enough to convict "beyond all reasonable doubt" for instance??

As I said above, there are plenty of pedophiles and other P'sOS in prison on the testimony of 7-10 year olds.

It could but it would certainly be examined closely. See Isaac's post. Once the child is qualified for truth and ability to communicate what happened, it would be a jury question as to how much weight to give the testimony.

A rule that flat excluded otherwise competent testimony merely due to age would, IMO, be extremely unfortunate. On the other hand allowing such testimony, knowing that is is unreliable, would be equally unfortunate.

Case by case basis in my jurisdiction. The younger the child, the higher the bar to qualify.

IIRC Wilkes County was once thought to be the moonshine capital of the universe<or something like that>. I remember talking to an older gentleman down there once who made the complaint that "Young people these days don't want to work... they just grow pot. When I was young it was hard darn work hauling all that corn on your own back... anyone who built their still in a place you could drive to didn't last too long...".

Threating to shoot lawmen who come out into the woods where you have your corn may just be a cultural thing in Wilkes... Just saying.

Thanks for that gents,

So would the fact the child was related to the deceased have any bearing as a witness?
Or would it be up to the Defense lawyer to show that the child was being biased or otherwise being minipulated??

Regards,

Peter

It merely goes to the weight of the evidence,Pete, as determined by a jury or a Judge if it's a bench trial. The jury could either accept the testimony as credible or reject it as not credible.

You can be most certain that a competent defense attorney will attack credibilty on all fronts. But delicately though. You cross-examine a kid at your own peril and hammering a kid on the stand in an abusive fashion often backfires.

I wouldn't thank them yet Pete, you haven't received isaac's bill.....

gowilkes.com com has a relative posting on the situation.
didn't read this entire thread to see if this was posted, but here goes- quite a bit of chatter on the net

CWG,

I have no idea if "rhondamitchell" is genuinely the old guys nephew or not (this is the internet after all) but assuming he is, that is a very balanced and fair post and all credit to him for not jumping to conclusions and for keeping an open mind..

Regards,

Peter

I doubt that guy is related or lives in Wilkes County for one reason. He said, "...now I've never seen many tree stands." From everything I've read about that family, that seems to be a strange thing to say.

As for a child witness, they are horrible...for the defense. You can't really cross examine a child very much or you will come off looking like a dick...and that would be bad for your client. If you do cross him delicately and manage to get him confused, it doesn't carry much weight, because after all, shouldn't a grown man and an attorney to boot, be able to confuse a small child in the intimidating setting of a court? Plus, juries are predisposed to believe children. After all, why would a small child lie? Children are perceived to be more innocent than adults.

Nope, you would be absolutely amazed at the number of men who are doing seriously HARD time on nothing more than the testimony of a 7 or 8 year old child who said that the man diddled with them a little. Most of those cases have no physical evidence whatsoever and often the children's stories are confused muddles, but woe is the defendant facing a jury when an innocent child testifies against him.

I'm guessin' rhondamitchell might just be a chick named Rhonda Mitchell and maybe she hasn't been in too many tree stands but I think she has been in a tree house at least once. Ya know my wife's cooked a lot of ducks, mine, her dad's etc. but I don't think she's ever been in a duck blind

Yeah, I guess you are probably right.

Oh, I believe you...When I was 8 years old, I was convicted on the false testimony of a local harlot by the name of Jayne Pickering , a brassy older woman of about 9!

To this day I don't know what she actually said, but the judge and jury (my mother!) bought it hook line, and sinker, and over the course of the week, I was given the slipper in a mighty fashion several times for the same "offence"...When I asked what I had done wrong, the slipper would be brought out and applied as I was old "You know what you did....."

Eventually somebody else grassed Ms Pickering up and she confessed under cross examinataion, and I was cleared of all charges...

Funny thing was when I then asked my mother what I was supposed to have done, I was told it didn't matter!

Justice was certainly "character forming" back then!

That's funny

Trust me, its a lot funnier looking back now then it was back then..Back then, it was just....painful!

Obviously a character builder.

There was a good show on about that the other night, "Witch Hunt"
I can't remember what network, but I do remember most of it was based on event's in Kern Co. California and some dirty (or maybe overzealous would be a better term) law enforcement, child protective services, and prosecutors--bottom line is a lot of people were let loose after doing years in prison because children often will answer to what they think you want to hear from them. Many of the kids, now grown-up say they were coached to tell of things they couldn't remember ever happening.

No doubt.