If I decide not to believe in Christianity or any other God based faith, will God send me to an eternity in hell?


The whole thing just seems absurd. I didn't ask to be born into this life but according to Christianity, that was part of God's plan.

So now that I'm born, I'm given 2 choices -

- Believe in God and honor him for which he'll reward me with an eternity in Heaven

or

- Not believe in God which means he'll make me spend an eternity suffering



...sort of makes God seem a bit vengeful and vindictive

An hour with the Old Testament will answer your question far better than I could.

No

Kent

So he won't punish you if you don't believe in him?

In my opinion,..a coupla hours in the New Testament would be much more informative.

Can we logically believe that any human can answer that question? Only God himself could tell us that, although many(most) religions will tell you they have the exclusive written word of God and will answer your question based on those writings. Really though, why do you care what any person has to say about the idea? What makes their idea any more valid than your own?

Ask Gus...he seems to have a better grip on REALITY...lmfao...

No....its not about believing in christianity or God based faith...its about believing and worshipping God and his son Jesus who are one.


In order for him to be a God he had to have worshippers.

Kindof.....believe in Jesus Christ be baptised in his name....not no dumb trinitarian name and live and worship him.

Wrong....Hell was created...cant be eternal.



Makes him a just God.

Is that where he says, " ahhh screw it, everyone gets into heaven".?

I dunno.

If you don't have a driver's licnse, the traffic laws do not pertain to you.

Well,...not really.

I'm not really open to indepth discussions of a religious nature,..but it's my opinion that it's a developmental thing,..and it has very little to do with what many people associate with it.

As fort God punishing people,....I think that misses the point.

It's a choice an individual makes for themselves.

A person starts out having nothing,...and if they refuse to accept what's offered, they will end up having nothing.

There's a fair amount of smotin' and cursing, wailing and nashing of teeth. Enough so that I just say "yes Sir".

Makes him a pretty mean God if he'll send you to hell for not worshipping him.



The whole idea of God needing or wanting to be worshipped seems pretty silly as well. I mean, did he create all of us so he could have a bunch of people telling him how great he is?


What does he care if people spend time telling him how wonderful he is?

Sin, confession, Eucharist, eternal life. If it sounds to good to be true it probably ........

Council of Nicaea determines this life after death thing is definitely marketable, taxable too!

Bristoe nailed it on the head.

Seems they have little choice.

The only thing that stands between total destruction of man and God is Jesus Christ.

[bleep] troll

...a little too deep for me.

People definitely have a choice.

In fact, freedom of choice is the basis for the whole deal.

Biggest ever!

Yep, Up/down, yeah/nea, black/white.

To me, it's a little more complicated than that. Especially when you consider the consequences.


Regardless, the choice might be a whole lot easier if you didn't have to rely on men passing along God's message.




....man screws up everything.

Dude.......five months without a smoke and yer gettin' WAAAYYYYYY too deep.

Seek help.

Thats why you gotta watch who you listen to...

lol

There's not much depth to my thinking.

Jessie Ventura spoke the truth...many can't handle the truth.

De' Debul is angry and vengeful (along with man).

The Lord is not.

Best,

JM

If He weren't vengeful we wouldn't have marriage.

lol

Is there some guide who is right and who is wrong?


Say by chance you were born in Egypt rather than the states and your family and friends were all Muslim. Would you be screwed because you listened to the people you knew and trusted?


What if you were born to Hindu parents, Jewish parents or born in Africa?


How is anyone to know who is universally right?


Seems like a crapshoot depending on where you were lucky enough to be born.

Who can blame him?....he was Gods right hand man...got a little too full of himself and was kicked out of heaven....he knows how the end turns out and wants everyone to join him in his destruction.

I disagree. Some never know whether or not an offer has been made by God. We know man has made an offer to believe as he, and threaten those who do not, with gods wrath.

A forgiving god in my opinion, would judge men by the lives they lead, and the manner in which they treat their fellow man.

That's sort of my take.

Shhhhhh, that would really [bleep] 98% of the 'Christians', God forbid.

Wish I could help you on that but right now I cant...

But I can say this.

Only the chosen ones eyes will be opened...all others will be blind.

Gus?

Lol, no.

I rest easy knowing I belong to the other 2%.

Hebrews 10:30

Yup, you got some snot out of me on that one.



.....friggin hard to clean laptops.

No need to make fun of a man's faith. But, I guess that is what this was really about from the start.

Ask questions, then ridicule the answers.

Now can you appeal to Jesus or Mary if you don't like his verdict?


Seems he has an awful lot of anger for someone who is suppose to be all loving.

If that is the case than I got suckered?

Thats OK....laugh now.

Naw, not this time.

Sorry you don't get an appeal you'll get yours in hell.

Who is the one who died on the cross?

Jesus or Mary?

Theres your answer.

Well,...yeah,..how one treats others is definitely part of it,...but that's more or less a byproduct.

Difficult to explain from my perspective,..and I'm not always real good at following the path that I know is correct. But there's some things in a person's internal makeup which determines a lot,..and it's not always outwardly obvious.

Some people are extremely hateful,..even some of the more pious people you'll meet have the real thing going on,..that deep down, ingrained bloodlust *hate*.

I think one of my aces in the holes is that I don't really feel hate. It just doesn't register with me.

There was a time that it did,..on occasion,..but it just kind of evaporated over time.

I don't really think it was spontaneous.

Laugh always and please God save me from your followers.

The one thing that makes me wonder WTF about the deity more than any other thing is kids born with horrible disabilities. Seirously, what's up with that. I know there's scripture and interpretation to cover it, but I'm not buying it.

I'm glad Christ didn't first come to us in the 1980's. A little cross around the neck accessorizes so much better than a little electric chair.

We used the gas chamber in Ms. during the 80's.

No even sure how you could get that one on a necklace.

Thar's sort of what has clouded my judgment when it comes to God and religion.


There just seems to be so much hate that is the result of religion. For the most part, it makes me want to stay as far away from religion as possible. Other times, I wonder if it's just man that has turned me off to God and religion.

I realize I've become a cynic and I'm not particularly fond of it.

BECAUSE YOU HAD THE DRIVE AND COURAGE TO ASK

Seems it can be as complicated as you might wish to make it - and some folks/organizations do seem to go for complication. But, it also is very simple and can be so for anyone. This may be too skeletal for some Christians but, in the most brief of terms, I would explain Christianity as follows: (Sorry - I already know that it will become more wordy than some will want - can't help it)

God created us and gave us laws to live by - and also gave us free will. By our nature, we have chosen to disobey in various ways and become sinners - some to greater degrees than others - and God is the only true and just judge of those degrees.

As a loving God, he sent his Son Jesus to live among us, to show us His example of how we should live, and then to symbolically and actually take all of our sinful nature upon Himself and be crucified - after which he went to live with His Father.

God also has created and clearly described Heaven and Hell, and provided the means for us to choose our destination.

In our sinful state, God has given us a choice - a simple choice. We can accept the fact that Jesus, His Son, is our Savior because He died for our sins. We can confess our sins to Him, ask forgiveness and believe in Jesus as Savior. God has told us that, if we do that, we should walk with the Savior and do our best to live as God has directed - but all we have to do is believe - and we are Heaven bound. It all boils down to a matter of faith. Some have it - and believe - others reject faith, and seemingly do not believe. It is strictly an INDIVIDUAL and PERSONAL choice. None of us are to judge another. God is the only adjudicator of the degree of our faith.

If we choose not to believe in Jesus Christ as Savior and follow Him, we are not Christians. We then are something else and have chosen to fend for ourselves after this earthly life.

Hope I did not mess this up in the eyes of the scholars and those who have studied much more than me - the intent is totally to be helpful and keep it simple here. Some folks may choose to dismember my explanation and elaborate quite a bit. That is OK.

That's another question that I think about.


How can he let some who are so young and innocent suffer so terribly?

Exactly. Way worse than Christians acting in an un-Christian manner.

Lotsa confused people and a lot of hypocrites out there.

Lots of people who justify their hate with religion.

The Messiah devoted a lot of talk to that topic.

In fact, the people he directed it to had him crucufied for pointing it out to them.

It's been around a long time.

What does your heart tell you, not man using words to shape God to man's existence. Being lost spiritually doesn't mean punished. We are all lost at times and I expect we will go through trials even after as we continue to grow spiritually, after we move on. After all that has happened to me the last 9 months. And I know others have suffered throughout history more than I, my experience isn't special. I've come to some conclusions not easily explained in man's words.

I've been able to strip away all the politics, control issues, human interference in my spiritual relationship with God. It's crystal clear to me now, or I'm insane. I have no inner struggles, no fear of anything in this life or the next and feel I understand the transition and wonder at my previous fear of leaving this life.

I don't believe anymore in a stop and go for the spirit, between life and death, just a continuation and like a caterpillar, the unfurling of wings and the glory of release. Whether we have a life of 1 sec or 100 yrs doesn't matter and is just a blink in our existence. I feel it starts at conception and why I don't think there is a transition from embryo to viability in the abortion issue, any abortion is homicide, whether it's justifiable may be another issue.... So I believe there isn't a transition for the spirit once started, it may leave the body, but continues on without a pause.

I can't really describe it in words, I can't talk to God in words, I 'feel' his meanings, I relate in emotions and communicate that way also. God is timeless, either direction, his language can't be ours. Man's words all relate to time/place, we communicate in time relation. How can we describe God in a medium he doesn't live in, man has tried to put God in our time with words. God sent his son, our brother, to exist in time and teach. He did without written words, he used emotional stories and examples, parables, to teach the spirit... Jesus never wrote anything. I have to believe there are many paths God opened for all to follow.

Spirit to Spirit, nothing else matters.

My son has already advanced above me, he will be my elder when I move out of time.

I may never pray aloud again, it's only words... Amen

So, do only Christians go to heaven? and if so, why go to the trouble of creating so many different people with such varying beliefs?


It is extremely hard for me to believe that if God is who we say he is, a loving compassionate supreme being, that he would dam an otherwise good person whose sole sin was not accepting Jesus Christ or worshipping God.

Man created God in his own image. So, God is accordingly vengeful, petty, smallminded, illogical, contradictory, murderous, and so on.

This is not complicated, but some would like to make it so.

How can those who represent God have such an high percentage of pedophiles and those who covered for them? How can this not make it even harder for the agnostic to take man's word on how he needs Christ?

I say that with all sincerity, not wishing to fire anyone up. Believers are lucky people to live with that piece of mind, I wish I could find it, but I can't, and things like the Catholic priest scandals make it all the more likely I never will.

As luck would have it you don't need any damn silly religion for that peace.

We will all fear dying.

Jeff, you silly twit, I've thought about your answer real hard trying to make it work...but it doesn't.

If you follow the thinking, and I use that word lightly, of some of those damn silly religions.

No, we send ourseleves to Hell.

Hatred of mankind based on religion can be attributed to the fact that we assign and expect an individual to consistently live up to an extremely high standard of exemplary moral behavior. We are just human beings and more often than not fail to consistently meet these expectations. We begin to hate the person for not meeting the standard, and become cynical regarding the religion.

We all live between good and evil.

Why don't you just go have a GODDAM cigarette ?

GTC

Being a former Catholic, that was the first and biggest blow to my faith.

Until such time as we welcome it.

Hopefully pun intended.....

lol

Dickhead.

So,...let's sum up from the athiests point of view.

"If there was a God all the world and all it's people would be perfect."

Seems like you've all got it figured out to your satisfaction.

Congratulations.

It's not everyday that a man can decipher all the intricacies of the universe.

I have gotten down on organized religion. It was a gradual process. I was born and raised Catholic, went to a Catholic School. It is a big part of who I am.

I am so appreciative of getting that education, when I was in grade school, the Nuns were like Mothers to us and did a wonderful job of teaching us about Christ, morality and what our Father in heaven expected of us. I have always believed that my Catholic education saved me from taking a bad road in life.

Unfortunately, there is the other side of organized religion, the hypocrisy and bigotry that can be found in most all of the faiths. How any man can say that another will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven because he does not believe exactly as I do, is a concept that runs counter to the God I believe in.

I'm surely no spokesperson for any religion or on God in general. I do have a deep faith and believe in the Almighty and his son Jesus. I sometimes would like to smack or shoot folks, so I am defintely a work in progress.

I believe most of our organized religions have become corrupted and are self serving. I know many will not agree and I surely do not fault anyone that participates in organized religion. Christ himself said do not forsake the flock.

I still go to Mass on occasion. However, I see most organized religions as controlling, fund raising institutions where self preservation is the main concern, not the spiritual needs of it's members.

I used to feel terrible for having this opinion, still do at times and have tried to look at it with an open mind and heart, prayed about it as well.

I guess it is what it is. One thing I do take comfort in is that 2000 yrs ago. The son of God was sent to live among us and he didn't think to much of the way organized religion was run in his day either.

JM.

Ha!

I suspect it's too simple for you.

One could just ask God their questions, read their own Bible, come up with your own answers since man just phuggs schitt up.

If you do this you'll either turn into Aleister Crowley or the ATF will bulldoze your compound and light it up....

What kind of choice is it when if you don't believe you'll spend the rest of time suffering in hell?



If there really was a choice, damnation doesn't seem like what would await you being door #2. We are threatened with pain, suffering and misery if we don't chose to believe.


What kind of choice is that?

I don't know, my grandfather was an atheist. He lived life to the fullest, hiking in the woods, camping into his eighties, finally passing at 95.

His last week on this earth he became very depressed, you couldn't get him to talk, when he did, he indicated he knew it was about over and I believe he loved life and didn't want it to come to an end. He loved his kid, his grand kids, and his eight great great grand kids, I don't think he was ready to let them go either.

I contrast that to people I have known who almost seem to relish the day they get to leave earth, those who truly believe it is not over, it is only the beginning, those who truly believe there is a better place after earth. That is piece of mind I would not mind having, but doubt I ever will.

All you are doimg is taking the Greek point of Gods with many conflicts and plugging it in ti monodeistic thinking.

The Greek makes more sense.

As I said, you don't need a religion to have that peace.

Pull my finger.

All you really need to know is PAF

Well if I'm reading you right you still need a belief in God, correct?

Nope, God created our spirit in his image. Trying to put God in man's words is a mistake. We are the masters of our own physical world, God made it that way and stepped out, his is the spiritual existence. Whatever happens here, life, pain, death, love, hate, evil, good, we do to ourselves.

Religion is man made, heaven and hell are man made, words of time and place that will have nothing to do with our spirit after life. If you place your faith in man's words and tenets your path may be much harder.

I'm sure I can't explain it right but it will probably be many paths and levels of spiritual well being. From a path of hopelessness(hell) to the rapture of enlightenment. There will be all eternity to travel whatever path and advance at whatever level we desire.

Kent

I'm almost afraid to ask..

It's been well documented here before. People are [bleep].

Can't say what works for you but you don't need a religion, that is a silly man based trap. I believe in God but I also believe we are nothing but worm dirt once the breath leaves our bodies.

Thinking a week of depression in 95 years of living is a pretty good run.

There is the good side of mankind as well. We just get inundated with the bad stuff everyday and lose sight of the fact that there are still many good people on this earth.

But we must stop eating it.

The thing is, you can't count on the good stuff. But you can bet your ass on the other.

I believe the body is, but I believe we have a soul that is eternal.

I think there is something. Time will tell, perhaps

Wow. I dint think I was that smart.

Nah, I'm just saying stupid myopic people made a stupid myopic God.

The Buddhists made a much more rational God. Even cooler- their God says he's not actually a God! I'm not sayin.... I'm just sayin...

We just need to find a dead person and ask him.

Well, not unless you get on board.

If it is a place that dreams do come true I'm assuming there are 20 year old twin Ukrainian chicks behind every harp.

You're not and screw Buddha.

krp, you are a trooper for hangin' in there on this thread.

Well I can't deny that all we were and would have been on this earth will be ashes, I'm going to be cremated. If there is no spiritual continuation... well I won't realize it, so nothing lost that I didn't have anyway.

I do hope to continue relations with those I care for after ... it'd be cool to flip each other off again for fun.

Kent

Poor Jeff. Man, I would hate to be in your shoes.

Your mean and Buddha shall rain eternal hellfire upon your disbelieving ass for all... uh... eternity.

So there.

Not very Buddha like of him. Probably just another Christian masquerading.

Why so? Is a vengeful God gonna whup on me?

I have a positively beautiful set of spiritual beliefs, and what's more they are irrefutable and consistant with observable reality. So there.

Buddha is, as Buddha does...

Did I just make that up? I think I did. Damn I'm good.

We'll see, but then again my dad always said,"There are no atheists in foxholes" and he was in a few.

What observable reality? Man's reality Jeff?

The same men who didn't know that germs existed 200 yrs ago and blamed sickness on witches?

The same men today, who can't explain the planet we live on or even how our own brains function?

Forgive me if I don't put too much faith in man's universal comprehension and explanations.

They have been proven wrong, so many times on so many levels, that I have little faith in them.

You put way too much stock in man's ability to explain what he doesn't understand.

Glad you got it figured out. Disappointment awaits.

JM

I'm getting a headache. Good night.

Yep, hitting the old head against the Jeff tree will do that to ya'.

Night Pard.

I didnt read this whole thread but I dont think God is vengeful, hes got a hell of a sense of humor though. He gave us washington DC..........maybe he is vengeful....

No, not THOSE men!

Cliff notes version of The World According to Jeff:

I came from something beautiful. I'm part of something beautiful. I will go back to something beautiful.

Consistant with reality and a comfort to boot. What more you want, man?

How did you come from something beautiful if you weren't anything until that magical moment of viability. You were just a mass of cells subject to abortion.

Talk about blind faith, that's an unreasonable religion refuted by biological science.

Trooper Kent

Just get jacked up on ibuprofen like I am now. You'll worship the Anti-Inflammatory God. So- headache solved, a consistant simple spiritual path provided.... what more you need from me??

G'night JM and TG, and even Steelhead, you ignorant slut.

I am no more, and no less, miraculous than any other part of the universe. What are the chances that the rock under you feet would be exactly as it is? Vanishingly small. And yet here we are, and there it is.

Everything that is me, you, or that rock came from somewhere. It was somewhere achingly beautiful-remember? I do. Best of all we get to go back.

Again- consistant with reality and a comfort.

I will assume your check is in the mail.

rrroae has some legitimate issues he wants answered, we all want those answers. Even as Christians.

How can God make us and then abandon us to his enemy, what happens to those that never heard of Jesus or God, what happened to my sister's best friend in high school that was to be baptized on Sunday, everything arranged, she was walking home from school on Friday and fell over dead, brain clot. What happens to those that claim Jesus on Sunday but live as Satan the rest of the week. Is it God's words or man's history of their worship of God in the bible.

Is God evil if he only accepts enlightened souls abandoning those that never had the opportunity to hear, or those that believe the Baptist version over the Catholic.... Methodists are guaranteed for hell...

How do we separate those words they wrote from the spirit of God and those they added from their own desires and good intentions. It is obvious the Bible is not 100% the word of God, some of man's prejudices crept in when it comes to tenets.

I do not put faith in any man's religion or word's, they will always let me down. My personal relation with God depends on no man.

Kent

Jeff, you are so contradictory it's not worth the effort, what ever you say today has no relation to what you said a few months ago, just sounded good at the time. Very immature, though you have no idea what I'm saying. I've discussed abortion with you before and you get about two steps into the discussion and repeat then retreat, boring.

Explain again the beauty of creation and continuation, I don't deny there could be the possibility, even in God's plan. There are some Christian beliefs that our souls chose the time to be born, they already existed.

Mesh your pro abortion beliefs we talked about months ago.

This may be deep and you didn't realize they might be interrelated as are other issues.

Luck

Kent

If your faith is in a church which is made up of flawed men, and a church with a history of horrible atrocities, injustices, born from inauspicious beginnings, what else would you expect?

Faith in things of men will always disappoint. Faith in God and His word, never will.

And yes, God is vengeful. Perfectly so. But also perfectly just and perfectly gracious and forgiving.

Nor is it true, though you would like to make it so.

I appreciate that post krp.



Really gives me something to mull over.

You're able to phrase some of the thoughts and questions I have that are screaming inside of me.


For myself, I know I have to take man out of the equation if I ever hope to see the issue clearly(spirituality). I understand I let my distrust and anger with man trump any relationship I had with God. I know it but I still do it. I don't know why.


I'm not sure how to say this without offending a whole bunch of people here but what completed my break from God about 1 1/2 yrs ago was witnessing all the hate and anger among people of faith on the campfire. It certainly wasn't the over riding reason as I've been having issues and questions the past 15 yrs but it was what made me sever any remaining connection I had to God.

You go do dat debul.

rrroae,

Man is fallible, even the best men. Don't let the actions of men sour you on the Lord.

JM

In my mind, I understand that. I just can't get my heart to go along.

Head hurts from thinking about it.



Going to go do some habitat improvement to clear my mind.



Appreciate all the comments and patience.

Never ceases to amaze me the idiots who get on a religious topic that dont have a clue as to what they are talking about...............

Never ceases to amaze me how self righteous some of you idiots are.

Theres one..........

Thinking you were another misplaced load, what a [bleep] self righteous, backstabbing typical POS 'Christian' you are. You and JO are two sides of the same coin.

Backstabber huh?

Show me where?

Tough guy............

I forgot dumb as a fence post. Still can't grasp that the following has nothing to do with Christ? "If Christ returns we will kill Him again"

Yep,

It shows how stupid man can be, and is. We persecute people on religious grounds for not agreeing with our views, even the Son of God.

If our behavior wasn't so tragic, it would be funny.

JM

NO! I pretty much follow what your saying but YOU are the DUMB one!

Comments like that will be paid later.

Keep it up wiseguy.....all this is on HIS recording books and WILL be answered at a later date.....you know....when you die.

You are so far off the path you aint got a clue as to what you are saying...

Now where did I backstab you...or anyone else?

Sweet, those with IQ's of 70 are leading the pack to salvation.

IS that the best you can come up with there mr. flip and glib....?

Tom,

I think he is referring to your post in response to rrroae.

Here was a man that was looking for something, you can sense it in his last post and he got the door slammed in his face for his trouble.

Can't imagine why the original poster is turned off from religion. It's nice that SMART folks like you are letting him know how far off others are and that they will burn for an eternity.

Yes, Tom is too obtuse to follow much.

Oh I get it...your one of those ones who think WE have to "turn the other cheek"?

Like I said you aint got a clue.......keep it up.

Yes oh great messiah.

Gonna put me on ignore again...?

Nope, just ignorant.

Uh huh!

We'll see........................

Enjoy your Sunday

Have a good day.

Tom,

I can't speak for Steelhead and he probably isn't going to spell it out.

The issue some have is not with God or faith, but with man's hypocrisy and exclusivity when it comes to practice of religion. Which often times runs counter to what Jesus taught.

JM

My family were congregation builders, we helped with 3 in 10 years from when I was 8 to 18. We would start in school auditoriums and after a couple years buy land and build buildings. Some experiences were uplifting, some not so much.

I was being groomed for the ministry, figured that was my path. I was shown the inner workings of the church and it's politics. You can't imagine the pettiness and control struggles, downright biblical sin from those in good standing behind the scenes. The young ministers would be pushed and pulled by the different fractions, it truly is not a blessed occupation because you have to deal with man.

Lessons I learned, if you listen to 5 different Christians in one congregation, you will swear there are more than one God, each has their own that thinks exactly like them. If a young couple newly come to Christ, all excited and filled with the spirit, proclaiming to all that will listen their rebirth. Finds out the minister they believe is Gods voice to them and their mentor, bonked the choir leader. They will proclaim there is no God, he let them down if there is, and find another softball league to play in. True example I witnessed.

Never put your spiritual faith in any man or organization. Church is fine, but a social club with disagreements and politics of man. The comradeship and support can bolster, the politics and hostility at times can destroy, it's a two edged sword.

Going to church will test a man's faith to the limit.

God obviously has a sense of humor...

Kent

John thats why these people shouldnt look at what "other" people are doing or saying....its between man and God himself....not man and man.

Man will fail at everything he does...he aint a God.

If people can get that through their minds they might actually find something.

Every opinion on this thread is the product on those who have been taught or influenced by man to believe as they do, just as this agnostic is the product of his upbringing and surrounding.

At this point I'm gonna need a tap on the shoulder.

shouldn't you all be in church or something?

Well said.

Now I'm off to shoot my debul gun if my wife will get back with my truck...

Tom,

I agree. Ya'll were saying the same thing, just in different ways.

I'd bet my hat both of you are good men. (My hat is old and cheap, so I if lose, it ain't no big deal).

Bit I won't, because I know I'm right about you both being good folks.

isn't this Church?

Now, concerning the guy above me (byc)...

He is a census debul.

I suppose.

This is all wayyyy too deep for me. Religion kinda gets that way though.

These kind of chats, whether here or a bar...wherever, always end like this..couple guys getting pissed at each other. Part of being humble is realizing we dont know it all.

You know, when me and the ex used to argue, id head to the bar. Blow off to some buddies. It was great. Got alot advice. In the end I had to go home to her and work it out. It'd be best if the OP put out his cigarrete, took one last swig, and went home to work it out. Im sure the Lords waitin.

John I prayed long and hard with Makers in hand about the census and yes de census debul got me. She's in the mail with Makers spilt all over it. Barely legible but I crossed to the other side. Need more Makers now!

These threads can be useful, if you can sift thru and pick out the good stuff.

Depends on how you look at it and what you are looking to get out of it.

Agendas aside.

JM

Who?

It's more like "submit to God", than "believe in God".

Is doing it your way more important than going to heaven? Is anything more important than making it?


.

For me this makes the most sense.

Yeah, Listen to de' bbq rub census debul and you'll get a seat in the VIP box in hell....

Yeah with you being the ticket taker----your truck ain't back yet. Maybe you best put out an APB on that woman..

I will beat her with the Good Book if she does not get back soon.

She is at the Animal Shelter, looks like I probably won't be busting any caps on the South Carolina debuls I painted on my targets last night....

JM

watch her may she come home with a load of cats---this from de debul.

Once a upon a time there was a Goddess, the Faerie Queene. She was lonely and created a help mate she called God or the Faerie King as her friend and companion.

Then she brought forth Faeries to populate the Otherworld, the parallel universe of the Natural World.

But some of the Faeries being impish children thought that the grass looked greener on the other side of the fence, Natural World, and crossed over. We impish Faeries are stuck here for a number of years until we learn our lesson and gain some wisdom and then we are allowed to cross back over to the Otherworld (death) where we will live happily ever after with the Faerie Queene our Mother and the Faerie King our Father.

This is the short version but it gets to the point just in case someone needed to know.

Don't say that. The bad thing is I know she is hauling dogs around in the cab of my truck, although she denies doing it, but doesn't want to let me use her car?????

Might be because I once got it stuck on a loggin' job and had to leave it overnight...

My priveleges was revoked!

Don't want to see anyone getting upset with each over my questions. I like to be mischievous and raise hell so the few times I'm being sincere, I don't expect everyone to automatically take notice.


To put it as simply as I can, I have a lot of anger directed towards religion and I know it's preventing me from seeing clearly. It's something I have to work thru on my own but sometimes I have so many questions I don't mind hearing from others. Sometimes it helps and sometimes it just leads to more questions.

Dont let me or my actions be a stumbling block to ya..

rrroae,

If you are looking, you'll find it Pard.

Tom,

How did you get an Ingwe avatar to wave like that?

Simple I went to a avatar site and downloaded it to my photobucket account.

They make avatars that have movement.

.....Ingwe avater....

KRP,

You have written a very intriguing view of one man's relationship with his God. Your view is interesting in that it sidesteps all the sticky questions of why there is imperfection and evil in the world. For example, in your view, there is no such thing as sin in the relationship with God since sin is solely in the domain of men. If there is no sin in a man's relationship with God, then the Biblical concept of eternal reward and punishment does not exist. In short, there is no heaven or hell. There only the relationship....if one wants it. Moreover, the relationship is completely independent of everything.

Do I understand what you wrote correctly?

Kent,

The spiritual beliefs I articulated here are pretty much exactly what I've said the only other times I've been willing to talk about this stuff with a buncha unbelievers <grin>. I've usually used the "jar of water in an ocean" analogy, which rather neatly expresses the same thing IF a person applies a little thought.

As to abortion, it's an almost un-debateable topic because it very quickly gets into whether one believes in God, and in a soul. If one does not, as I do not, then entire realms of "your" premise are patently false; and yet they are taken as a given by "your" side. So there's just no point in attempting a discussion from where I sit. However, I've gone out on a limb to say what I believe about the subject. I'm not sure what else you'd have me do with regards to that topic- hang out for some abuse? Thanks, I'll pass.

Got a feeling it won't be waiving on or about the 22nd. I get it..

Hello rrroae:

You did a good thing by asking your questions - these same issues nag a lot of us - in different ways. There is some very fine insight in some of the responses here - just look for that and think about it.

The only advice I might offer is this: I can find no point in being angry at "religion" as such because it is a man-made and man-described concept that varies greatly according to the person or organization talking. Actually, when it comes to our relationship with God, there is no point in being angry at all. Such anger will produce nothing good. To me, seeking and inviting God to reveal Himself seems much more promising than acting out anger at something that will not be affected - it's kind of like hitting an anvil with a stick.

One thing ALL religions share in common is belief in a god.


To an agnostic or atheist, it matters none which man made religion we speak of.

Religion? Or God? I can honestly say I could be on the same boat as you regarding religion. You see, I dont attend church. Too many hypocrits there for me. Ive never been baptized. Ive had a chat with Mickey about that fairly recently. Its something I struggle with. But I talk with God everyday. And I feel fairly certain I dont need to pick a denomination to love God, or Him me. We all have decisions to make, they arent easy, but speak with Him and im sure He will show you the way.

Is God vengeful?

Yes, She is.

I've always had the philosophy, that I'd rather believe in God and end up being wrong come judgment day... than NOT believing in God and be wrong come judgment day.

What has always gotten me... in our society, so many people embrace a disbelief in God and the existence of a heaven... while at the same time, have no problem believing in a Satan and the existence of a hell.

Our we prone to believe in the negative and disregard the good or positive in our society?

Tarnishment of the concept of God, has been the fault of man, not the fault of God. I believe God wants us to be taught certain principals to live by and interact with our fellow man in those ways...

but on the other hand, God doesn't need us to 'worship' him like taught in churches. I have trouble believing God demands that he needs to be placed on a thrown and worshipped like some sort of midevil period king. King and Worship are vain man-made concepts.

God would rather have our lives lived by example, than how much we worshiped him during our time on earth.

I've always had the philosophy, that we each are put on this earth.. we have no control when that is, or when that life will be called back by God... what we do have control over is everything in between those two points... control over how we live our lives...

I can only speak for myself, but I apologize to God what little I have accomplished in his name, with the abilities he gave me...
To translate what I mean.... a good life is not what you accumulate for yourself in life, it is what you can give and do for others that gauges whether you had a good life or not.

I've always lived by that philosophy... and while I give a lot to others in my lifetime, I never feel it is enough...and my only excuse is that I have done the best I can... hopefully if there is a God and a heaven, come judgment day, then he will smile and tell me that was enough... or recycle me back down here and tell me to try it over until I get it right...

or I find myself standing in front of Satan with a big smile on his face, and saying "welcome... we've been waiting for you..."..

but I don't feel comfortable that my final fate is just a hole in the ground... that is why I plan to be cremated...to have my ashes spread over somewhere I love in hopes that means that my spirit or ghost will wander there for eternity... and that may be what heaven really is afterall..

But it isn't a choice. True belief is not something you can just choose to do...sure, you can cover your ass and say you believe, but wouldn't God just look into your heart and know you are gaming him?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOWx5G76pkU


this explains everything

Guess I should be an able minister of the other side then with my 155 IQ. Gosh, I could get 'em saved over twice as fast as the IQ70 crowd. Funny how that never seems to work out, though. Laffin'!

This morning I was listening to a speaker and was reminded of a rather simple theory which I have pondered for more than 50 years. It appears that we seek the answers to four basic/broad questions in our lives:

Who am I (identity)?
From whence did I come (origin)?
Why am I here? (purpose)
Where am I going? (destiny).

Those can be seen as a search for personal freedom and actualization - and I think that the answers do bring great freedom to some people - maybe millions.

Seems like almost every system described as a "religion" is built with some or all of those queries. As each person searches for the answers, he/she may encounter and dig into various "religions" for resolution. But, no "religion" as such seems to do it all as such.

In my case, being a Christian is not at all tied to any "religion", denomination or organization - those systems do not fully work, and at times they cause messes. So, I suppose that I am not at all "religious".

However, my personal relationship with the triune God, as bolstered by His Scriptures, answers those four basic questions completely, and the resulting walk is explanatory, guiding, fulfilling and abounding with hope. I cannot speak for anyone else's approach - but God speaks with omniscience.

The old theory seems to hold very well - but the above merely puts a scratch on the surface of the issue.

Well Bark..

it is a choice... evident by those that don't have a belief in God..

My belief in God is not a "cover my fanny" scenario..and there is no game playing on my end..

just for the record..

it is religion, contaminated by man kind that I have a problem with..

Well Keith,

those 'critics' also have an IQ of 155 or so..
only difference in their's versus yours, is they don't notice the decimal somewhere in theirs...1.55 to 15.5

of course that is why they are liberals..they don't need to pay attention to details and they convince themselves they are always right and everyone who doesn't think as they do are wrong.. that is what make them liberals..

GUS! Where in the Hell are you when we need you so bad?

Whether God is vengeful or not, is not my concern. It's His/Hers.

God gave me the ability to reason for myself, and the rope with which to hang myself, should I choose to use it.

What I do in this life, is my own call; His/Hers later to Judge, based upon my actions, ones that I, alone, am responsible for.

I get one shot at this life, and intend to live it as I see fit. After that, it is, literally, out of my hands.

Besides, I don't presume myself as omnipotent as God, so if I ask Him/Her to guide me, and make a decision/action after that, I can only hope that He/She did so guide, if I find/believe the action to be right.

As to the vengeful part; God may not be, but I can be. So be it.

Of course, YMMV....

Seafire,

Helping a buddy clean up some reclaimed hardwwod here so I just have a sec... you mentioned dismay at the idea that a hole in the ground was a piss-poor way for it all to end. Paraphrasing; correct me if that's not accurate. But anyway, from MY spiritual perspective, what could be more beautiful than a hole in the ground?

"What is", is fundamentally beautiful. It is undeniably where you came from- all questions of God aside- and it's where you GET to go back to!

The loss of individuality is what gives people the willies. As in, most people want to believe that they will exist as a discrete entity post-death. I don't need that, because my spirituality centers around connectivity and oneness.

Just some thoughts. People hear me say I don't believe in God and imagine I, and many like me, are in a spiritual wasteland. Quite the opposite. Love abounds!

yes there are the 4 questions, do any of them need an answer? I co-exsist within the tribe as all tribal animals do........I am no greater or less than the animals I hunt.

I could write a book, but it would still be just words, I would say some what you say is correct.

God lives in eternity, not just back and forward, all directions. He is everywhere. The bible supports this. Therefore he is not a physical presence. He would not speak in words, words are time and place related. When, where, why, how, who. God can not be contained in those words or defined by them. That's the only way we know how to communicate and so attempt to make God in our image. The bible is man's words defining God, a good foundation and containing the most rudiment description but not God's literal words. Seems there are also some of man's words about physical worship, tithing, temples, sacrifice, baptism, that God really could care less about but the church needs.

I don't know what he really is, just what he is not, I will just say spirit but doesn't explain all the facets. I don't believe he does miracles in the physical world, probably pays little attention. He is concerned with our spirit, we could be dying with a great positive spirit and he would rejoice, we could be rich and healthy with a festered spirit and he would feel sorrow. I believe he has expressed these emotion communications to those writing the bible, read between the lines. I think they added other things on their own also for congregational control.

I believe God is pure emotion, our true reality is pure emotion, though we put an emphasis on the physical, that's our existence right now. Religion is our physical manifestation of our God belief, there's no way it is pure.

The closer we can get to pure love/emotion, the closer to God we will be. God is love, live in God... if there is a heaven it is just living in God and all those with him.

The path of hopelessness/despair, hate, Satan, I don't believe the end but a hard road to travel and probably needing help to get off. I think there will be great deeds to be done after, what are we preparing for here, to lay at Gods feet and throne and eat grapes, mindless slugs or suffer physical pain for eternity.

Which is the heaven and which is hell. A slave to God or a slave to the devil, either or. We were given free will here and should be multiplied after, made in Gods image. I chose not to be a slave to either, I will serve willingly for good. Evil from either direction I will fight.

Jesus didn't write, didn't preach, he spoke in parables, he spoke in as close an emotional language as he could, tugging on our heart strings.

Now, many things we do as Christians are great, I just see a different angle... prayer, especially when more than one will pray the power will be multiplied. Power of spirit, Holy spirit if you will coming from inside each one. Concentrating on the spirit of another, healing that spirit and sometimes indirectly the physical with just an inner well being. I also believe there are the same good forces in other religions and don't think they are excluded, God is everywhere, there are as many paths as souls.

When my son died my spirit/soul was shattered, every one that said they prayed, thought of me and him, just said 'I'm sorry'... or 'Sorry'. Gave me a piece of their spirit's glue to help put the pieces back, as many as I could, didn't matter if they were religious or none at all. I am here to witness the power of shared spirit... emotion.

My words truly don't express my real emotions of God, life, my fellow man, death and spirit... they're just man words... but my own.

Kent

Is God vengeful? by faith I believe not.

Not true. There are many religions that belief in a human. Buddism is one of the religions that belief in a human.

Please read your bible, especially the old testament. There are many examples where God took vengence on the enemies of Israel. The purpose of his vengenance was to correct disobedience and sin. God never took vengenace just for the thrill. There was always a purpose and mostly it was corrective in nature followed by restoration.

God is neither male or female. God is God.

KRP,

The reason that I found what you wrote about God interesting is that in your view, if I understand correctly, the relationship between any man and God is voluntary and completely inclusive. It matters not at all if the man is Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot, Osama Bin Laden, Billy Graham, Mother Theresa, you or me. It only requires the emotional desire to be connected to God. Moreover, the relationship is completely independent of what we have done in life because good, evil, sin, religion as well as parts of the Bible are just creations of men and are nothing to God.

Your theology raises some interesting questions though. For example; Are the 10 Commandments
something Moses made up for 'congregational control'? If sin is a creation of man, did Jesus really die for them?

You have mentioned more than once that your written words cannot accurately reflect what you mean so I apologize if I have mis/over-interpreted.

Please add my condolences to you and your family for the loss of your son.

Carbon

He must be vengeful or he would have not allowed this thread to start.

Years ago, a life ago, I took theology classes. I can't remember per verse and not going to look it up, again we could write a book on just a few points. Seriously I can cherrypick verses to substantiate any view I want, talk to 5 different Christians and you will hear about 6 different Gods.

Legalize out of the way. going by my memories years ago and questions unanswerable. These are subjects I wrote in essays, I got good grades and strange looks.

Why did Moses have to go up the mountain, God's arms too short. I jest because to me God is so much more than the small God the jews wrote about. He feels inspired by God's spirit, therefore he received the 10 commandments from God. Could be as simple as needing a cohesive symbol for fractioning tribes at that moment.

Where would God's anger come from, he made everything, he knew the course it would run. Again man trying to fit God into their mold, They are angry so therefore God is also, They defeat their enemies, therefore God used them to smite his enemies and destroy them... the killing was justifiable under God's anger... holy even.

Scary hell with a demon of torture... So the devil has freewill, he can leave God and go his own way. He can present himself before God and talk with him about current events in a normal conversation, look up Job. He is a fallen angel and will control most of the souls when all is said and done... We are to be more than angels, more powerful, how can he have any sway over us. If he is allowed before God, why wouldn't any soul, even Hitler's, to state their case and ask for redemption, and wouldn't our brother Jesus stand there in our defense, even the most low of us.

Contradictions, I could go on. I believe the premise correct, there are emotions of God's in there that he wanted revealed.

There are many more.

For myself, I feel I've distilled my faith down to the lowest point. He's not a small God.

God is pure love, God is life eternal, live in God... purely biblical...

Kent

I don't believe that at all. The Bible is God's written word to all people. Evil and sin are very much something to God. Those concepts are the very reason that God laid aside His kingdom of heaven for a time and took on flesh to suffer the indignities this life offers and suffered horribly on a Roman cross. It's no small wonder these things are mysteries to us, but through study and prayer much can be revealed to those who would seek out these answers.

A relationship with God was made possible by the death of Christ. It comes only after salvation through Christ. Once that transformation of our spirit takes place, our sins are removed forever: past, present, and future. Sin after salvation, while on this earth has earthly consequences like any wrong decision, but no consequences on our eternal spiritual salvation. The best way to stay as free as possible from such sin, is through an ongoing relationship with God.

'

I've read this whole thread and it reinforces a contradiction in reasoning that I became aware of years ago :

The same guys who have no problem accepting the fact that the universe is so immense that its size is incomprehensible to our minds will demand of the Creator of the universe that He be understandable to us . Our puny selves demand that He satisfy our intellect and - once that is done - we will allow for His existence .

Jesus Christ is very real and as Brother Lawrence put it many years ago : " He is within you - look not for Him elsewhere . "

Once He is accepted , all questions will vanish .

Until He is accepted , no answer will satisfy .

Excellent post! Well said.

He's been pretty good to me since I started talking to him again.I didn't "disbelieve" but I had doubts.

I am not anti God or Christianity,I just don't put much stock in churches,a typical result from being raised Catholic.

I never know which Bible you guys are talking about-there are so many different ones.

There is only 1 true Bible from God..........

This response to the OP is equivalent to: Drink the Koolaide and everything will be OK. I suspect that the OP already knows that. Giving up on what the mind wants to know is not an answer to the question posed.

Moreover, the premise that the Universe is unknowable is intellectually lazy. We, as a cognitive species, should be capable of basing our faith on something more substantial.

Curdog4570,

Comes about as close to the truth as anything I've seen here in a long time, regardless of what saith the naysayers.

Drink the Koolaide and everything will be OK .

See there Neighbor Carbon , I can spell it out and if that is what I meant , it is what I would have said .

And the SIZE of the universe is not comprehensible to us - at least according to the scientific types who study it .

The Creator of the universe cannot [ at least by our minds ] be comprehended , which is why He must be APPREHENDED .

You " catch " Him - in the Person of Jesus Christ - in much the same way you "catch " a cold . You hang around someone who is "infected " with Him . [ I think I prob'ly got that from Lewis ]

I recommend Ricky D and the Shootist as being about the most " infected " at the ' fire and not because they said nice things about my earlier post , although I do appreciate it .

God knows the limitations of His creation. While our minds may be able to conceive of and bring into being, all manner of technological wonders, I note that few genuinely improve the quality of life and most make us slaves to that technology. That tells me there is something missing. Something essential beyond our mental and creative abilities.

I believe that is why He insists on the qualifier of Faith to both accept Him and be accepted by Him. The intellect of the world is largely vain and proud, which leads to perverions and self worship. He can accept none of that, but to come humbly, without pride and filled with remorse and brokeness, and believing only by faith, that He both Loves and accepts.

1 Cor 1:27-31

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
KJV

"I sometimes think that God in creating man somewhat overestimated his ability."

O.W.

You are too kind. I have noted a good number of posters on here of late, who are obviously filled with the Spirit of God and who possess a Spirit led understanding of the Word of God. There are many out there and those who stay silent in the shadows are often those whose voices should speak out as I'm sure they will when it is their time.

Brother Keith has a wonderful and annointed understanding and he is consistent in it's application and sharing of the Gospel. One of the great misfortunes in life is that I have never had the opportunity to meet him in person, but do believe he lives his faith which is the test we all face but few survive.

In other words, PAP. LOL

I've never known curdog4570 to call it any other way than what he sees it. Consistently!

Faith is a strange thing. The greater the faith, the less you need the sight end of the spectrum, because we walk by faith and NOT by sight. Faith, by definition, is the evidence of things NOT seen. (Heb 11) It's nigh unto impossible to convince someone who is stuck in the "seeing is believing" department.

Now, is God vengeful. Yes, but ALL his attributes are in complete balance -- love, justice, grace, mercy, wrath, forgiveness, charity, equity. You and I would do well to learn a lesson from the Lord. He says "Vengence is mine, I will repay." Count on there being a day of reckoning. Absolutely count on it.

But count on this too -- God's vengence is stayed by the shed blood of the perfect Son of God - Jesus Christ, the Righteous. I guess we all would like to fashion a God after how we would like him to be. In spite of that, God is just exactly the way the Bible says he is. He pardons, based NOT on our actions, but on the sacrificial love of Jesus Christ on the cross. Period! Get in on the love of God through faith in Jesus Christ, or get ready for the vengence and wrath. Simple principle ------ and it has NOTHING to do with denominations.

What he said.

Was not insinuating that believers are gaming God, only referenced myself, meaning, I could say I believe when in reality I can't.

Your post shows a lack of understanding for non-believers, you assume that those who do not believe, choose to not believe. Because it is easy for you, you assume it should be easy for all.

Who in their right mind would choose to believe there is nothing after death, when the alternative is bliss and reuniting?

That is like saying those who do not buy a lotto ticket choose not to win the lotto.

+1

"

Scott , that's a humorous way of saying something which seems to have a certain validity . That observation might be explained better this way :

Man shares all the instincts which govern the rest of His critters , but we have another instinct which is peculiar to us ; the religious instinct . From earliest recorded history , man seems to need something " bigger and better " than himself . He makes totem poles and such .

It seems some folks mistake this religious instinct for our spiritual nature's honest quest for our Creator .

The religious instinct can lead to an intellectual satisfaction such as ; The Sun is god . There is no god . Everything is god . ad infinitum . It can lead to membership in a cult or a church . Just as our other instincts [ you're probably familiar with the sex one ] need to be periodically satisfied , some make taller totem poles and others check out different churches and cults and the " deniers " take every opportunity to bolster the claims of their diety ; the non - god .

None of this satisfies our spiritual quest for our Creator . This is the Higher Calling .

Just as lust is a God given instinct when directed toward our mates and Satan's own tool when left un - checked , the religious instinct is properly used as the servant of our spiritual nature , and Satan's best tool when serving our intellectual [ or fleshly ] nature .

Notice that as the religious instinct led John the Baptist to preach repentence and baptistism , he never mistook that for the "real deal" .

When he met Jesus , he knew This was the REAL DEAL .

And so will we all .

It's far better to meet Him as Saviour than as Judge !

Are we talking about the 1599 Geneva Bible that the Pilgrims carried ashore from the Mayflower?

Any "god " worth worshipping ought to be able to convince a man of His existence .Don't you think ?

We christians claim He can do exactly that !

Nothing is required except an open mind and rigorous honesty .

We have to find "god " where WE are , not where we think He might be or where someone else tells us He can be found .

It is as simple as " saying " to your innermost self that you " sort of , kind of " wish you could believe in Him and establish some sort of relationship .

A part of His nature is devoted to helping you find Him and that is the part you find first .

Since I happen to know that there is only one God and He is personified in Jesus , I'm not afraid you will find the " wrong " god . Unfortunatly , some christian preachers seem to be afraid you might find the " wrong " one if they don't point Him out to you !

The bible is for believers , and once you come to any sort of belief , it will present itself to you in a different light and good bible scholars and preachers can be a big help .

But if your mind is closed to the possibility of a God who cares about His creatures , then He might as well not exist .

A feller told me years ago : " What you believe about God is not going to change Him one little bit , but what you believe about Him can change you . He ain't the one that's a drunk ; He don't need changing ! "

'bout as good an answer as the OP is ever gonna find , Keith .

One feller said that in the end , God's infinite Mercy" trumps " His infinite sense of Justice and that seems to me to be the same thing you are saying .