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We can read the scripture and compare whether those who claimed to be profits enlightened by God to the prophecies they made and whether they did in fact come to pass historically.

If a man told you he was a prophet God directed him to inform us the prophecy and if those things he said did come to be always true, even seemingly impossible events, and none were missed, one could dismiss the prophet as being lucky or one could get a clue.

Those too stupid or stiffnecked to get a clue, being of sound mind, wouldn't be worthy of the knowing the truth.
Quote
How can we find out if God exists?

You can't unless you die first.
Then it's too late to matter.
Originally Posted by jaguartx
We can read the scripture and compare whether those who claimed to be profits enlightened by God to the prophecies they made and whether they did in fact come to pass historically.

I a man told you he was a prophet God directed him to inform us of and if those things he said would come to be always true, even seemingly impossible events, and none were missed one could dismiss the prophet as being lucky or one could get a clue.

Those too stupid or stiffnecked to get a clue, being of sound mind, wouldn't be worthy of the knowing the truth.




Die...you first.


And before any of you laugh at my answer, it is the only way to know for sure as everything else is supposition and stories made up by strangers with vested interests and a bent for bullshit.
So, you fall into the latter group- the group who prefers to stupidly say the fulfillment of impossible prophecy was simply a matter of luck.

So, since you are already convinced you cant intelligently process what it means for some to have accurately predicted future evdentd there is no point in your further embarrasment.
Smart people play the odds, JS.
If there is, you will learn someday.
If there isn't, you won't.
Faith?
Originally Posted by jaguartx
So, you fall into the latter group- the group who prefers to stupidly say the fulfillment of impossible prophecy was simply a matter of luck.

So, since you are already convinced you cant intelligently process what it means for some to have accurately predicted future evdentd there is no point in your further embarrasment.


So, you are a fuckwit that cannot think for himself and has to mouth the words of others to feel some meaning in life.
Faith gets us in Heaven. It doesnt prove beyond a shadow of doubt God exists.

The claims made in the Bible have a great basis in historically proven evidence.
Originally Posted by jaguartx
Smart people play the odds, JS.



If you think belief and godliness is about 'playing it smart' then you are not even in the race you halfwit.
Gus?
Originally Posted by jaguartx
Faith gets us in Heaven. It doesnt prove beyond a shadow of doubt God exists.


Your title to this thread was "How can we find out if God exists?", and mentioned nothing about faith...if you have faith you do not go about needing proof.

Now piss off and play with the other peds and money-lenders.
I'm not playing the odds, JS. I know. Im saying we can know beyond a shadow of boubt by seeing the history of fulfillment of pophecy and extrapolating it to prophecies that were predicted to be fulfilled in the future.

I know that if I hit a deer in the brain with a 7 mag bullet I will get the deer.
Hit your thumb with a hammer.
Originally Posted by Tracks
Gus?


My first thought as well.
Originally Posted by jaguartx

I know that if I hit a deer in the brain with a 7 mag bullet I will get the deer.

With a little thought most can think of several possible exceptions to that statement.
For example that brain shot deer falls off a cliff and you're unable to recover it.
There are no absolutes.
How may we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? Deut 18:21.

Moses said, "When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if it does not come true, we know it was not words the Lord spoke.

The prophets of Israel were stonec to death if ever wrong. Often they didnt even know what their prophecy concerned.

We are seeing many of those prophices happen in our lifetime.

I guess some of those guys were pretty lucky, or, divinley guided.
JStuart?
Off topic but does that land of milk and honey for some.........................
have chocolate Graham crackers for others?
OP, look outside your window.
Jeremiah told Israel the southern kingdom would be taken by king Nebuchadnezzar and was not well recieved. He also said the land would be destroyed and become desolate and that Jerusalem would be destroyed. He also pissed his buds off by saying the survivors would be made slaves for 70 years. Lucky guess, huh?

A holy man, like we have leading in some of our churches, beat him and put him in the stocks.

Archeology and history now prove he was right. Babylon kept them 70 years and destroyed Jerusalem.
Originally Posted by steve99
OP, look outside your window.


I saw good becoming evil and evil good. Darn, another propecy fulfilled.

I saw where men were sharing their wives. I saw a nation turning from God.

I saw a nation floundering. Darn, more fulfillment.
Originally Posted by jaguartx


So, since you are already convinced you cant intelligently process what it means for some to have accurately predicted future evdentd there is no point in your further embarrasment.


Speaking of intelligence, I wonder if there's a written exam to get into heaven? On grammar and spelling, perhaps? Anybody know for sure?
Originally Posted by Tracks
Originally Posted by jaguartx

I know that if I hit a deer in the brain with a 7 mag bullet I will get the deer.

With a little thought most can think of several possible exceptions to that statement.
For example that brain shot deer falls off a cliff and you're unable to recover it.
There are no absolutes.

God is an absolute. In fact, he is THE absolute.
At this point I ask:

1. Did you pose this question because YOU are now doubting Gods' existence and in turn your faith, which leads to you now needing reassurance from others ?

2. Or did you have a need to pose a question that would lead to discussion that would allow you to preach the word of God to others ?
Micaia was thrown in prison and fed bread and water for going against King Ahab and his 400 prophets not inspired by God when he said they should not join Jehoshaphat and attack Syria, when all 400 prophets of the king opposed him. He predicted Ahab would be killed and the army defeated. Ahab disguised himself and was killed by a miracle arrow that hit the chink in his armor.
"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."

List all the other possibilities of how the earth and universe came to be. There really is only one possiblity that makes any sense. There is a creater god, and his name is I Am. He made everything in its complexity and wonder by speaking it into being. No way it happend by accident, evolution, or any other way.

You know in your heart God is or the question would not be posed. He placed that yearning there. To accept that yearning is faith and the beginning of wisdom. To reject it is something else entirely and will not end well.
Originally Posted by Snyper
Quote
How can we find out if God exists?

You can't unless you die first.
Then it's too late to matter.


How wrong! I have heard his voice with my ears and tangibly felt his touch. I am but a witness and testify to this truth. That you or others have not is unfortunate, but not proof.
Originally Posted by Gun_Geezer
"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."

List all the other possibilities of how the earth and universe came to be. There really is only one possiblity that makes any sense. There is a creater god, and his name is I Am. He made everything in its complexity and wonder by speaking it into being. No way it happend by accident, evolution, or any other way.

You know in your heart God is or the question would not be posed. He placed that yearning there. To accept that yearning is faith and the beginning of wisdom. To reject it is something else entirely and will not end well.


NAILED IT!!!
Originally Posted by Tracks
Originally Posted by jaguartx

I know that if I hit a deer in the brain with a 7 mag bullet I will get the deer.

There are no absolutes.

Tracks,

Your statement is an absolute so there is at least one exception to your rule. If there can be one exception to your rule, why not more?
Originally Posted by JSTUART

... stories made up by strangers with vested interests and a bent for bullshit.


JSTUART,

I realize that you and I disagree about many points presented in this thread. However, I like to keep an open mind. Do you have any evidence to support your statement that I have quoted above?
Originally Posted by achadwick
Originally Posted by Tracks
Originally Posted by jaguartx

I know that if I hit a deer in the brain with a 7 mag bullet I will get the deer.

There are no absolutes.

Tracks,

Your statement is an absolute so there is at least one exception to your rule. If there can be one exception to your rule, why not more?

You're absolutely correct. Seems as though I proved and disproved my point with the same post.
Tell me that doesn't take talent grin
All you have to do is look at the witnesses . Jesus said he was the Son of God. The Apotles believed him and he proved it to them or they would have disappeared after his death. They went on proclaiming the good news.

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/killing-jesus/articles/how-did-the-apostles-die/
Hasbeen

A Jew by the name of Isaiah faced an Assyrian army which threatened the besieged people of Jerusalem under Hezekia. Isaiah prayed to the Lord and was told, and predicted, a rumor would reach King Sennacherid of trouble in his own country and would leave for his country. He did and was subsequently killed by his own sons.

He also then said Babylon would destroy the country of Judah and that the surviving sons of the royal family would be ennuchs in Babylon. This came true a hundred years later.

He then predicted that the Medes would subsequently destroy Babylon which would never be lived in again. Babylon was historically one of the sdven wonders of the world and was considered impossible to take, with walls thick enough 5 chariots could be run beside each other on the top which was 150 feet high.

The Medes dammed the Euphrates River which ran through it and during a drunken royal ball the opposing army marched in under the wall and took it. Thus, we are left with the saying "The handwriting is on the wall" after the Medes wrote "Your kingdom was weighed in the balance and been found wanting. It is divided and given to the Medes and Persians". Daniel 5:1-31.
Question answered....
Later, Iszaiah predicted a King Cyrus would in the then distant future, allow Jews who wanted to return to their homeland (humm, I thought the Jews didnt have a homeland) and rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple to do so.

200 years later, a Persian King Cyrus did just that with the Jewish captives left over from Babylon.

Lucky guess, I suppose. Later lucky guys would predict a strange event that would affect the world would occur in Bethlehem. I guess there were reasons beyond the fear of death to dream up the idea of the Savior.
Those stories were described and foretold in Isaiah 44:28-45:4 and Ezra 1:1-11.
Originally Posted by Tracks
Originally Posted by achadwick
Originally Posted by Tracks
Originally Posted by jaguartx

I know that if I hit a deer in the brain with a 7 mag bullet I will get the deer.

There are no absolutes.

Tracks,

Your statement is an absolute so there is at least one exception to your rule. If there can be one exception to your rule, why not more?

You're absolutely correct. Seems as though I proved and disproved my point with the same post.
Tell me that doesn't take talent grin


Excellent! We are in agreement that there are absolutes.
Originally Posted by jaguartx
Faith gets us in Heaven. It doesnt prove beyond a shadow of doubt God exists.

The claims made in the Bible have a great basis in historically proven evidence.

Without "god" there is no "heaven"
One fantasy requires the other
Those that require "miracles" as proof of God, have no faith, and therefore no God.
Originally Posted by Gun_Geezer
Originally Posted by Snyper
Quote
How can we find out if God exists?

You can't unless you die first.
Then it's too late to matter.


How wrong! I have heard his voice with my ears and tangibly felt his touch. I am but a witness and testify to this truth. That you or others have not is unfortunate, but not proof.

You had some sort of experience, and have convinced yourself that was "god".

Hallucinations and "feelings" aren't "proof" of anything.

Proof is something that can be presented on demand repeatedly.

Good snipers take into account all information, possibilities, contingencies and probabilities. Of course, some snipers believe in luck, like the prophets who got stoned, because they weren't divinely guided.
Originally Posted by jaguartx
Good snipers take into account all information, possibilities, contingencies and probabilities. Of course, some snipers believe in luck, like the prophets who got stoned, because they weren't divinely guided.


Very well said in my humble opinion.
The number of ways is only limited by the imagination.
Originally Posted by jaguartx
Originally Posted by steve99
OP, look outside your window.


I saw good becoming evil and evil good. Darn, another propecy fulfilled.

I saw where men were sharing their wives. I saw a nation turning from God.

I saw a nation floundering. Darn, more fulfillment.


See what you want to see. You are self fulfilling. Simple question simple answer. I'm done this will go no where.
Some things have to be seen to be believed.

Some things have to be believed to be seen.

Mike
25 posts and already you have Gus' number...
It seems to me that most prophecies are so vague and open-ended that they are almost useless. Something happens and those who want to believe find a way to make it fit the prophecy. Since the prophecy is written in such a way that its meaning tends to be rather obscure, that's usually easily done. If someone knows of a prophecy previously written, and deliberately takes actions simply to fulfill that prophecy, is is really still accurate?

I'm not saying it never happens or has never happened, even those of other religions or no religion at all have sometimes made accurate predictions. I've done a little reading of various prophecy and overall I don't find them terribly convincing.
Originally Posted by agazain
25 posts and already you have Gus' number...


Gus doesn't ask questions in the form of a self-righteous sermon.
I believe in God and His Son Jesus Christ.

I believe that baiting a post like this will do nothing to convince anyone of your points.

I believe this thread will only serve to tick off the ones you are trying to reach.

I believe this will most likely be my last reply to this thread.
Originally Posted by RufusG
Originally Posted by agazain
25 posts and already you have Gus' number...


Gus doesn't ask questions in the form of a self-righteous sermon.


You nailed that on the head !
Originally Posted by jaguartx
We can read the scripture and compare whether those who claimed to be profits enlightened by God to the prophecies they made and whether they did in fact come to pass historically.

If a man told you he was a prophet God directed him to inform us the prophecy and if those things he said did come to be always true, even seemingly impossible events, and none were missed, one could dismiss the prophet as being lucky or one could get a clue.

Those too stupid or stiffnecked to get a clue, being of sound mind, wouldn't be worthy of the knowing the truth.



Are you related to Gus?
jaguartx, is this the only reason you joined this forum? To argue religion?
Look around! Not hard to find God
How is posting scripture of Biblical prophicies that later became historical fact arguing religion?

I thought the facts interesting. If you don't why are you on this thread. Oh, to denigrate a believer. Sorry if the Bible stories make you uncomfortable.

Originally Posted by jaguartx
How is posting scripture of Biblical prophicies that later became historical fact arguing religion?

I thought the facts interesting. If you don't why are you on this thread. Oh, to denigrate a believer. Sorry if the Bible stories make you uncomfortable.



news flash. outdoor forum, not a pulpit for thumping your bible....so you are gonna get 'denigrated' a bunch here. especially when you get butthurt about it.
Which/whoseGod?
John are you still here ?
Originally Posted by Lynn
John are you still here ?


Do we care? sleep
Originally Posted by Partsman
Originally Posted by Lynn
John are you still here ?


Do we care? sleep


John does....
Originally Posted by toad
Originally Posted by jaguartx
How is posting scripture of Biblical prophicies that later became historical fact arguing religion?

I thought the facts interesting. If you don't why are you on this thread. Oh, to denigrate a believer. Sorry if the Bible stories make you uncomfortable.



news flash. outdoor forum, not a pulpit for thumping your bible....so you are gonna get 'denigrated' a bunch here. especially when you get butthurt about it.


I am not butt hurt. I dont understand why anyone would call posting an old story arguing. I dont know why anyone would read a thread that they werent interested in.

I joined because of the things I read on RCs thread and I wanted to add my 2 cents.

It got me to thinking about how do we know He is. Most of us know by having asked to be saved and having become a different and better person because of it. I also have met many a-holes with the unchristian high brow attitude.

I read the Bible many years ago. Having read the prophecies lately impressed on me the fact that adding up those that are historical fact is an indication that some of those who made fantastic prognostications also predicted the coming Christ. Maybe they were right again.
Quote
I am not butt hurt.


...REALLY ?

...coulda' had me fooled, and callin' you self righteous azzwhole seems to be a little light.

your style is bloody well offensive, Mate.

GTC

Originally Posted by jaguartx
We can read the scripture and compare whether those who claimed to be profits enlightened by God to the prophecies they made and whether they did in fact come to pass historically.

If a man told you he was a prophet God directed him to inform us the prophecy and if those things he said did come to be always true, even seemingly impossible events, and none were missed, one could dismiss the prophet as being lucky or one could get a clue.

Those too stupid or stiffnecked to get a clue, being of sound mind, wouldn't be worthy of the knowing the truth.


Dude,
Pray sincerely with a good heart and the Holy Spirit will confirm the presence of God.

Now, the Holy Spirit has revealed to me many things, including the fact you've been sharing the bong with Gus again. Give up the weed, order a pizza, and ask no more of these questions.

So let it be written. So let it be done.
Originally Posted by Snyper

You had some sort of experience, and have convinced yourself that was "god".

Hallucinations and "feelings" aren't "proof" of anything.

Proof is something that can be presented on demand repeatedly.



The OP didn't ask how one can prove to others the existence of God. If he had there'd be truth in what you say above.

If, however, the OP was asking how people here have found out that God exists in the subjective sense, you're completely wrong.
Originally Posted by Snyper
Originally Posted by Gun_Geezer
Originally Posted by Snyper
Quote
How can we find out if God exists?

You can't unless you die first.
Then it's too late to matter.


How wrong! I have heard his voice with my ears and tangibly felt his touch. I am but a witness and testify to this truth. That you or others have not is unfortunate, but not proof.

You had some sort of experience, and have convinced yourself that was "god".

Hallucinations and "feelings" aren't "proof" of anything.

Proof is something that can be presented on demand repeatedly.



I have no reason to decieve you. What I heard I heard. What I felt I felt. The Lord called my name and touched me.

God says that the ultimate description of a fool is one who “says in his heart, ‘There is no God.” (Psalm 14:1).

Believe or not, it is up to you.
It is easy when you write the story after the thing happens.

When is Christ coming back? Fingers crossed Trump is the Christ because that would be awesome. (I previously crossed fingers it was David Koresh, Hogen [bleep], Kenny Powers, David Shalyer, and Michael Sherlock)

Originally Posted by efw
Originally Posted by Snyper

You had some sort of experience, and have convinced yourself that was "god".

Hallucinations and "feelings" aren't "proof" of anything.

Proof is something that can be presented on demand repeatedly.



The OP didn't ask how one can prove to others the existence of God. If he had there'd be truth in what you say above.

If, however, the OP was asking how people here have found out that God exists in the subjective sense, you're completely wrong.

You seem confused since that post wasn't about the OP at all.
Originally Posted by Gun_Geezer
Originally Posted by Snyper
Originally Posted by Gun_Geezer
Originally Posted by Snyper
Quote
How can we find out if God exists?

You can't unless you die first.
Then it's too late to matter.


How wrong! I have heard his voice with my ears and tangibly felt his touch. I am but a witness and testify to this truth. That you or others have not is unfortunate, but not proof.

You had some sort of experience, and have convinced yourself that was "god".

Hallucinations and "feelings" aren't "proof" of anything.

Proof is something that can be presented on demand repeatedly.



I have no reason to decieve you. What I heard I heard. What I felt I felt. The Lord called my name and touched me.

God says that the ultimate description of a fool is one who “says in his heart, ‘There is no God.” (Psalm 14:1).

Believe or not, it is up to you.

I have no doubt you think all that happened.
That still doesn't mean it did, or that it's "proof" of anything other than something in your own mind.

Quote
God says that the ultimate description of a fool is one who “says in his heart, ‘There is no God.” (Psalm 14:1).

Some guy writing a book said that, claiming it was "god".
You can't quote the book as evidence the book is real.

You can believe whatever makes you happy, but it doesn't apply to anyone other than yourself.
Originally Posted by hatari
Originally Posted by jaguartx
We can read the scripture and compare whether those who claimed to be profits enlightened by God to the prophecies they made and whether they did in fact come to pass historically.

If a man told you he was a prophet God directed him to inform us the prophecy and if those things he said did come to be always true, even seemingly impossible events, and none were missed, one could dismiss the prophet as being lucky or one could get a clue.

Those too stupid or stiffnecked to get a clue, being of sound mind, wouldn't be worthy of the knowing the truth.


Dude,
Pray sincerely with a good heart and the Holy Spirit will confirm the presence of God.

Now, the Holy Spirit has revealed to me many things, including the fact you've been sharing the bong with Gus again. Give up the weed, order a pizza, and ask no more of these questions.

So let it be written. So let it be done.


I totally agree Hatari.

My position was that if one showed that the divine prophecies were perfectly fulfilled, it would be reasonable to infer that other prophecies by the devinely inspired would also be fulfilled.

Then we have the geniouses who dont realize the prophecies of those mentioned are historical proven facts.

Also, as we shall see, the prophecy that a savior would be born in Bethlehem has been fulfilled.
John 15:18-25.

I and other christians, are only more blessed when biotch slapped by biotches.
Originally Posted by jaguartx
John 15:18-25.

I and other christians, are only more blessed when biotch slapped by biotches.


I know a LOT of Christians that manage to remain civil, and live as examples of all that's good about GOODNESS.

If shi**ing all over yourself in public, and than throwing it at folks around you is your idea of a "blessing",.....

well wtf can one say, other than fill your boots, Stud.

GTC
Originally Posted by Scott F
I believe in God and His Son Jesus Christ.

I believe that baiting a post like this will do nothing to convince anyone of your points.

I believe this thread will only serve to tick off the ones you are trying to reach.

I believe this will most likely be my last reply to this thread.


The Pope asks for peace on earth, not me and not Christ. Matthew 10:35-38.
I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother. ....a mans enemies will be of his own
household.....(meaning, your relatives would prefer you to be acceptable to them and like them rather than as me). Whoever doesn't be a christian is not worthy of me.

Then Luke 9:26 Whosoever is ashamed of me .... (afraid of offending others?-afraid to repeat my words as they may make other uncomfortable and subsequently badmouth us christians?)


Originally Posted by Snyper
Originally Posted by Gun_Geezer
Originally Posted by Snyper
Originally Posted by Gun_Geezer
Originally Posted by Snyper
Quote
How can we find out if God exists?

You can't unless you die first.
Then it's too late to matter.


How wrong! I have heard his voice with my ears and tangibly felt his touch. I am but a witness and testify to this truth. That you or others have not is unfortunate, but not proof.

You had some sort of experience, and have convinced yourself that was "god".

Hallucinations and "feelings" aren't "proof" of anything.

Proof is something that can be presented on demand repeatedly.



I have no reason to decieve you. What I heard I heard. What I felt I felt. The Lord called my name and touched me.

God says that the ultimate description of a fool is one who “says in his heart, ‘There is no God.” (Psalm 14:1).

Believe or not, it is up to you.

I have no doubt you think all that happened.
That still doesn't mean it did, or that it's "proof" of anything other than something in your own mind.

Quote
God says that the ultimate description of a fool is one who “says in his heart, ‘There is no God.” (Psalm 14:1).

Some guy writing a book said that, claiming it was "god".
You can't quote the book as evidence the book is real.

You can believe whatever makes you happy, but it doesn't apply to anyone other than yourself.


Mounting evidence establishes proof. Asking for proof is a side-step. Objectively looking for evidence is an honest approach.
If birth doesn't teach you, death will.
Originally Posted by gregintenn
Faith?
Faith and ample evidence. But note how many trials have hung juries. Some people can't be persuaded, lack discernment and have closed minds. We all only know what we can know, not what we can't or won't.
Originally Posted by Talus_in_Arizona
If birth doesn't teach you, death will.
Excellent. So true.
Originally Posted by jaguartx
We can read the scripture and compare whether those who claimed to be profits enlightened by God to the prophecies they made and whether they did in fact come to pass historically.

If a man told you he was a prophet God directed him to inform us the prophecy and if those things he said did come to be always true, even seemingly impossible events, and none were missed, one could dismiss the prophet as being lucky or one could get a clue.

Those too stupid or stiffnecked to get a clue, being of sound mind, wouldn't be worthy of the knowing the truth.


Which scriptures of which god?

There are thousands of god beliefs, if you wish to prove on, you must fist define it.

Can you even define your god?
[Linked Image]
Start over at the first, AS. Read it again slowly and you can answer your questions.

It's about the Prince of Peace. He brings it to the hearts and minds of Israel, all of Israel, the spiritual Israel, the believers He will save. Romans 11:26. Another prophecy, like the one we see happening now - all the world turning against Israel, marking the latter days.

So really, why bother.
I had my first real exposure to atheists and agnostics back in high school. Before that, I was seemed to be surrounded by people with faith, both Christian and Jewish.

It dawned on me about junior year that God was joke.

(dramatic pause)

No, I don't mean that God is frivolous. I mean that one's belief in God works a lot the same way you either get or don't get a joke. You either get it or you don't and telling it over again is generally not going make the situation better.

I realized everyone is faced with the same physical universe. Some of us wake up in the morning and see a beautiful divine creation, and some of us don't. Some people can read the Bible cover to cover and see a bunch of fables and morality stories and history. Other people read it and find divine inspiration.

In a lot of ways its like seeing two sides of the same coin. God is so pervasive, that He is easy to ignore. I know this to be true, because otherwise there would not be so many atheists running about. They seem to be able to live happy, fulfilling lives without seriously considering God in their lives, and they are content to face death as it is without an alternative. On the other hand, I count myself among those who feel there is something more to it all. I feel happier for having got the joke. To me it is the most important things in my life.

I got to writing this and was reminded of the Parable of the Sower in Mark 4 and the other parables where Jesus uses mustard seeds as a metaphor. Jesus is talking about Faith in those scriptures. Mustard seeds are very tiny, and they scatter easily. When they fall in just the right spot, and get the right amount of nurturing, they become massive plants that can shelter birds. My point is that Jesus describes a lot of conditions where the seeds never sprout or fail to flourish. So it is with one's belief in God. The seed of Faith is going to grow or it isn't.

I really like that depiction of the Last Supper, and it reminds me of what can stand as my own parable. Many years ago, KYHillChick and I had gone to the Keys in January, around Key Largo. One day we decided to drive to Key West and I had forgotten how long of a ride it was, and how few places there were to eat along the way. We were late having lunch. The first place we found in Key West was a Cajun place. We went in and the first thing I did was order a load of crawdads. They came and I was hungry and I dug in and started slurping those mothers down. I looked up in a little while and saw that KYHillCHick had not taken a bite.

"What's up?"

"You go ahead, I'm fine?"

"Why aren't you eating?"

"Frankly," said KYHillChick indignantly. "My family was rich enough we didn't have to eat what come from the creek!"

What I found out was that growing up on the KY/TN line, she'd had neighbors that sent their kids out to collect crayfish and whatever out of the creek. There were no septic tanks or sewers, so the creek was filled with sewage.

This was woman for whom seafood has never held an allure. She never had a trip to Long John Silver's as a kid. Her family never bought Maine Lobsters at the firehouse every October. The mustard seed of love of seafood fell on barren ground with that woman. She is a wonderful, God-loving woman, but she will never enjoy a fried shrimp or a stuffed clam. This is one joke she will probably never get.

God is like a joke. One more parable and then I'll go.

Two polar bears are in a bathtub. One turns to the other and says, "Please pass the soap."

Is it funny? Some poeple get the joke. Other people do not. It is an example of a Zen joke. The more you hear it, the funnier it gets. I told that joke 30-some years ago to a bunch of COBOL programmers at the insurance company where I worked, and they all thought it was stupid. However, somebody asked me to repeat it a few days later, and those who had heard it before giggled. This was probably more from the odd look it got than anything. However, within a few weeks, it was the funniest thing in the programming bay and folks were going home and telling their girlfriends and families.

Originally Posted by jaguartx
Start over at the first, AS. Read it again slowly and you can answer your questions.

It's about the Prince of Peace. He brings it to the hearts and minds of Israel, all of Israel, the spiritual Israel, the believers He will save. Romans 11:26. Another prophecy, like the one we see happening now - all the world turning against Israel, marking the latter days.

So really, why bother.


so how do you feel about the tooth fairy?
It's great knowing you never said "Godd_m".
Originally Posted by Snyper
Originally Posted by Gun_Geezer
Originally Posted by Snyper
Quote
How can we find out if God exists?

You can't unless you die first.
Then it's too late to matter.


How wrong! I have heard his voice with my ears and tangibly felt his touch. I am but a witness and testify to this truth. That you or others have not is unfortunate, but not proof.

You had some sort of experience, and have convinced yourself that was "god".

Hallucinations and "feelings" aren't "proof" of anything.

Proof is something that can be presented on demand repeatedly.



History cannot be presented on demand repeatedly so your rule is incomplete.
Originally Posted by jaguartx
It's great knowing you never said "Godd_m".


you have no 'ph_kk!ng' clue.
I do have no clue as to why unbelievers flock to dispute those who believe, like moths to a campfire.

You are correct in your belief. He said in the Bible He is nonexistant to those who don't believe.

Many are called, few are chosen (to believe).
Thats when it gets fun, when people who dont agree with you are deemed stupid, or unworthy.

Its all downhill from there.
Quote
I had my first real exposure to atheists and agnostics back in high school.

We live in times that promote atheistic perspective due to prosperity. Recall Judges. That book shows when times were good, people fell away and became less dependent and grateful regarding God and turned to exalt themselves: then things came crashing down until He send a Judge to save them. Today with our institutions of higher "education", and professional opportunities, it's Judges all over again, but this time He won't send a judge, He will Judge and that's gonna suck for many.



Quote
It dawned on me about junior year that God was joke.

(dramatic pause)

No, I don't mean that God is frivolous. I mean that one's belief in God works a lot the same way you either get or don't get a joke. You either get it or you don't and telling it over again is generally not going make the situation better.
That's pretty good and sadly true.

“How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, “This is better than we thought!
The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant?”
Instead they say, “No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.”
A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths.”
― Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space
To see how bent out of shape most self proclaimed unbelievers get at the mention of something the claim to not believe makes me wonder if they are as sure and comfortable in their belief as I am.
Just be courteous and dont bring it up.
Originally Posted by gregintenn
To see how bent out of shape most self proclaimed unbelievers get at the mention of something the claim to not believe makes me wonder if they are as sure and comfortable in their belief as I am.


to see how many 'believers' seek attention and affirmation makes me wonder if they are sure of their beliefs at all.

Jim is correct. keep your personal beliefs personal and it's all good.

Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad
Thats when it gets fun, when people who dont agree with you are deemed stupid, or unworthy.

Its all downhill from there.


They deny people of the world are turning against the spiritual Israel and deny the nations of the world are turning against the physical nation of Israel.

The Lord has blinded them. John 12:40-42

Jer 5:21
Originally Posted by achadwick
Originally Posted by JSTUART

... stories made up by strangers with vested interests and a bent for bullshit.


JSTUART,

I realize that you and I disagree about many points presented in this thread. However, I like to keep an open mind. Do you have any evidence to support your statement that I have quoted above?


[Linked Image]

I note that the arseholes that made up stories made a living from it...or do you really think you need this to pray in.



Originally Posted by Lynn
Question answered....


Correct Lynn...he is another filthy maggot like ringy-thingy.
Originally Posted by toad
Originally Posted by gregintenn
To see how bent out of shape most self proclaimed unbelievers get at the mention of something the claim to not believe makes me wonder if they are as sure and comfortable in their belief as I am.


to see how many 'believers' seek attention and affirmation makes me wonder if they are sure of their beliefs at all.

Jim is correct. keep your personal beliefs personal and it's all good.

We seek affirmation from unbelievers? That thought borders on insanity.

This thread was started to examine prophecies of the Bible that have come true and are often historically proven. Can you even comprehend that? You think the christians on here seek to be led by the blind?
comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it?
Originally Posted by GeorgiaBoy
Originally Posted by Snyper
Originally Posted by Gun_Geezer
Originally Posted by Snyper
Originally Posted by Gun_Geezer
[quote=Snyper]
Quote
How can we find out if God exists?

You can't unless you die first.
Then it's too late to matter.


How wrong! I have heard his voice with my ears and tangibly felt his touch. I am but a witness and testify to this truth. That you or others have not is unfortunate, but not proof.

You had some sort of experience, and have convinced yourself that was "god".

Hallucinations and "feelings" aren't "proof" of anything.

Proof is something that can be presented on demand repeatedly.



I have no reason to decieve you. What I heard I heard. What I felt I felt. The Lord called my name and touched me.

God says that the ultimate description of a fool is one who “says in his heart, ‘There is no God.” (Psalm 14:1).

Believe or not, it is up to you.

I have no doubt you think all that happened.
That still doesn't mean it did, or that it's "proof" of anything other than something in your own mind.

Quote
God says that the ultimate description of a fool is one who “says in his heart, ‘There is no God.” (Psalm 14:1).

Some guy writing a book said that, claiming it was "god".
You can't quote the book as evidence the book is real.

You can believe whatever makes you happy, but it doesn't apply to anyone other than yourself.


Quote
Mounting evidence establishes proof. Asking for proof is a side-step. Objectively looking for evidence is an honest approach.


That might apply if there were some "evidence mounting", but that's not the case.

It's just people talking about what they think is real, but cannot really prove in any way.

Religions are all man-made superstitions, and they all claim to be "the only way".
To proceed.

After Israel became a nation again and Jesus brought the Good News which they rejected He spoke prophecy of their coming subjugation again. Luke 21:23,24. There will be a great distress on this land and the people will fall by the sword and be led captive by all the nations.

And Matt 23:36 Truly... all these things will happen to this generation.

40 years later it did. History verifies these prophecies.Titus and the Roman Legions destroyed Jerusalem. For 2000 years the sons of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob wandered the earth with no homeland.

Deut 28:46 Ampliphied- They (judgements) were on them (for a sign to other nations) for a wonder and upon your descendants forever.
John Locke in "The Reasonableness of Christianity" argued that there was in fact, credible evidence, that was altogether conclusive.

Daniel 9 and the time line from the decree to rebuild to the Messiah is just one among many.

https://www.amazon.com/Coming-Prince-Marvelous-Concerning-Antichrist/dp/0615965881
Originally Posted by Robert_White
John Locke in "The Reasonableness of Christianity" argued that there was in fact, credible evidence, that was altogether conclusive.

Daniel 9 and the time line from the decree to rebuild to the Messiah is just one among many.

https://www.amazon.com/Coming-Prince-Marvelous-Concerning-Antichrist/dp/0615965881

So his "evidence" that the bible and god is real is something he read in the bible?

Seriously?
Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
“How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, “This is better than we thought!
The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant?”
Instead they say, “No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.”
A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths.”
― Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space


Carl Sagan was not the sort of writer, I ever found particularly inspiring. His wife collaborated on most of his better books and co-wrote the COSMOS series. When he divorced Ann Druyan the quality of his work dropped tremendously IMHO.

The thing Sagan misses in my view is that a good Christian can look at whatever unfolds in Science and turn around and say "Ah hah! This is yet another part of God's Universe unfolding." God is everything, so whatever we find must be of God.

Is anything we find going to "prove" or for that matter "disprove" the existence of God? No. That proof can only come from Faith or the lack thereof.

More on sewing mustard seeds: (I've got mustard seeds on the brain today, sorry!)

Jesus did a lot of his teaching through parable. A lot of folks question why, and there is a school of thought that says that Jesus did this so that only the Chosen would understand. These are the folks who hold to predestination. I don't. To me, we have choices in this world and those choices have consequences. We can choose to live a life whereby we get the jokes, or we can go through life where the Word of God bounces off us like talking Quantum Physics to my beagle.

By the way, I frequently discuss these matters with Lily, my beagle. She has taught me that it all comes down to love-- love and food. If it is not about love or food, she really does not think it's worthwile discussing. She is a dog who understands Supreme Love. She gets the joke.

Another school says Jesus was telling the apostles that the rabble would only get the parable, but his initiates would get Jesus' deeper teaching afterwards.

Let's look at what he says:

Quote
10As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables. 11And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN.”


My view on this is that you either get the joke or you don't. Jesus is telling his disciples basic cowboy smarts: "If you can't pour piss out of a boot, having the direction written on the heal won't do ya' any good."


Originally Posted by jaguartx
To proceed.

After Israel became a nation again and Jesus brought the Good News which they rejected He spoke prophecy of their coming subjugation again. Luke 21:23,24. There will be a great distress on this land and the people will fall by the sword and be led captive by all the nations.

And Matt 23:36 Truly... all these things will happen to this generation.

40 years later it did. History verifies these prophecies.Titus and the Roman Legions destroyed Jerusalem. For 2000 years the sons of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob wandered the earth with no homeland.

Deut 28:46 Ampliphied- They (judgements) were on them (for a sign to other nations) for a wonder and upon your descendants forever.


Hey, everybody pipe down, there's a prophet in the house,..... crazy

To "proceed",....you need to head out to Wally World, buy some Felt pens,....get some cardboard from their dumpster, make up some signs, and go stand at a busy intersection, screaming out your message.
Dressing in sackcloth and sporting a wild appearance can't fail....

.....you were BORN for the job.

GTC
Originally Posted by crossfireoops
Originally Posted by jaguartx
To proceed.

After Israel became a nation again and Jesus brought the Good News which they rejected He spoke prophecy of their coming subjugation again. Luke 21:23,24. There will be a great distress on this land and the people will fall by the sword and be led captive by all the nations.

And Matt 23:36 Truly... all these things will happen to this generation.

40 years later it did. History verifies these prophecies.Titus and the Roman Legions destroyed Jerusalem. For 2000 years the sons of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob wandered the earth with no homeland.

Deut 28:46 Ampliphied- They (judgements) were on them (for a sign to other nations) for a wonder and upon your descendants forever.


Hey, everybody pipe down, there's a prophet in the house,..... crazy

To "proceed",....you need to head out to Wally World, buy some Felt pens,....get some cardboard from their dumpster, make up some signs, and go stand at a busy intersection, screaming out your message.
Dressing in sackcloth and sporting a wild appearance can't fail....

.....you were BORN for the job.

GTC


There is a fellow around here like that. He hauls around a 13 foot cross on his shoulders while walking on the side of the road. The skate wheels on the bottom of the cross seems to lessen the piety a bit though.
Quote
There is a fellow around here like that. He hauls around a 13 foot cross on his shoulders while walking on the side of the road. The skate wheels on the bottom of the cross seems to lessen the piety a bit though.


Tech Tip:

In the absence of real foam, a little Cool Whip combed into the scraggly beard does a fair job of mocking it up.

Remember, foaming at the mouth is a time tested and proven method of lending real interest to one's message,and keeping folk's attention riveted.

GTC
Originally Posted by crossfireoops
Quote
There is a fellow around here like that. He hauls around a 13 foot cross on his shoulders while walking on the side of the road. The skate wheels on the bottom of the cross seems to lessen the piety a bit though.


Tech Tip:

In the absence of real foam, a little Cool Whip combed into the scraggly beard does a fair job of mocking it up.

Remember, foaming at the mouth is a time tested and proven method of lending real interest to one's message,and keeping folk's attention riveted.

GTC


Camo up Safariman with some virtual Cool Whip and I bet you will end up with something like Jaguartx.

How can we find out if God exists? ask an outdoor/hunting forum on the interwebs of course. why didn't somebody think of that sooner?
Originally Posted by toad

How can we find out if God exists? ask an outdoor/hunting forum on the interwebs of course. why didn't somebody think of that sooner?


Don't sell yourself short sport...the wisdom of the ages resides in these fora and all the wannabes on the internet know it.

Unfortunately so do all the religious maggots with a hard-on for proselytising.
Why do the non-believers always feel compelled to respond to these threads? It's as if they possess no self-control and their need to show their ass is so overwhelming that they just can't resist.

I wonder if their ignorance is so paralyzing that they don't realize they don't have to open the thread. Like moths to a flame...
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Why do the non-believers always feel compelled to respond to these threads? .


Because when the douchebag meter is pegged the whole believer/non-believer distinction is moot?
Originally Posted by RufusG
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Why do the non-believers always feel compelled to respond to these threads? .


Because when the douchebag meter is pegged the whole believer/non-believer distinction is moot?


spot on
Originally Posted by carbon12
Originally Posted by crossfireoops
Quote
There is a fellow around here like that. He hauls around a 13 foot cross on his shoulders while walking on the side of the road. The skate wheels on the bottom of the cross seems to lessen the piety a bit though.


Tech Tip:

In the absence of real foam, a little Cool Whip combed into the scraggly beard does a fair job of mocking it up.

Remember, foaming at the mouth is a time tested and proven method of lending real interest to one's message,and keeping folk's attention riveted.

GTC


Camo up Safariman with some virtual Cool Whip and I bet you will end up with something like Jaguartx.


Bingo!
Believe and then die, period. That will be when you get the definitive answer, the rest is just speculation and faith.
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Why do the non-believers always feel compelled to respond to these threads? It's as if they possess no self-control and their need to show their ass is so overwhelming that they just can't resist.

I wonder if their ignorance is so paralyzing that they don't realize they don't have to open the thread. Like moths to a flame...


Zactly. They take offense at hearing or reading the Lords words. It instills fear and what is feared is hated.

Hebrews 4:12. The word of the Lord is alive and active, sharper than any double edged sword. It penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow, it judges the thoughts and atitudes of the heart.

Sorry, Cross. Acts 22:15 For though shalt be a witness unto all men...

He also tells us that though we as believers are saved, we who do not witness for Him are wicked.
no, it's this...

Originally Posted by RufusG
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Why do the non-believers always feel compelled to respond to these threads? .


Because when the douchebag meter is pegged the whole believer/non-believer distinction is moot?
The pharisees regarded Jesus similarly.
Take a blanket out into a field on a very dark and moonless night, lay down and look up!

IMHO.

But I think someone said this long before me!
Originally Posted by jaguartx
The pharisees regarded Jesus similarly.


Jesus joined internet boards to just to bible thump?
Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
“How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, “This is better than we thought!
The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant?”
Instead they say, “No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.”
A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths.”
― Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space


It may come as a surprise to you that Carl Sagan didn't know much at all about religion; just enough for his feeble mind to condemn it.

I completely agree that modern science has greatly magnified the beauty, breadth, and majesty of the creation... and to its chagrin much of the time, the Creator. My beliefs have no qualm with modern science; just the godless dogma of its priesthood.
Originally Posted by jaguartx
The pharisees regarded Jesus similarly.


There you have it.

Narcissism, persecution complex and victimhood.

Classic Safariman.

A few more posts and off to the Free Classifieds.
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Why do the non-believers always feel compelled to respond to these threads?


I don't know. Maybe because deep down inside there must be something, a higher power or whatever you choose to call it. Is there really a God? For me there is because I believe it. I believe in His Son Jesus as the Savior. Just because I can't see Him doesn't mean he doesn't exist. The choice is yours. Choose wisely.
Paul B.
Seeing the blind condem the truth, is proof good has become evil.
There are only 2 choices: God exists or he does not exist. Can you rely on using only your head to decide?

Lets say that God does not exist. You have 2 choices. You can incorrectly have faith that he does or you can believe that he doesn't. So what if you're wrong? Believers will live a different life on earth then die. End of story. Non-believers will also die. End of their story, too. It's all the same in the end so the only difference is how you live.

Lets say that God (and Jesus) do exist. Again you have 2 choices but the outcomes are radically different this time. If you believe, when you die you will spend eternity in heaven with the Lord, a glorious place free of pain and sin. If you don't believe, you will be confronted with the Lord's judgement and an eternity in a lake of fire. Yes, the Bible does say exactly that.

Are you willing to put your eternal soul at risk because of your opinions? If you believe and are wrong, no big deal. If you don't believe and are wrong, there's no turning back. Your destiny is decided and the pain is terrible. You have the choice while you live.
I would like to thank efw, achadwick, Shaman, R White, Acesn, RickyD and the other saints for their input.

Now I can be flamed for calling believers saints but that's in the Holy Bible also.
I ain't never been called a saint nor am I even close. I'm an [bleep] and very imperfect, I say whatever is on my mind without regard for feelings and fall short of grace all the time. I'm someone that believes in God and Jesus Christ as his son sent for our salvation. I believe, not to hedge my bets but because I've seen his works and I've seen him act in my life.

My mom was a saint and I'm nowhere as good as mom was.
Seems we have a bit of a straw man going here.
The Biblical definition of saint is anyone who's saved. Our modern definition makes it sound like you have to be perfect. The Catholic practice of glorifying people hasn't helped a bit. No saint can answer your prayers, Catholic or otherwise.
How can you find out if God exists?

The presence of the question within you is the evidence you seek.
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
The Biblical definition of saint is anyone who's saved. Our modern definition makes it sound like you have to be perfect. The Catholic practice of glorifying people hasn't helped a bit. No saint can answer your prayers, Catholic or otherwise.


Amen, and thank you also for your great posts on this and other christian threads.
Originally Posted by Talus_in_Arizona
How can you find out if God exists?

The presence of the question within you is the evidence you seek.


That's a perfect answer.
Originally Posted by Talus_in_Arizona
How can you find out if God exists?

The presence of the question within you is the evidence you seek.


Hmm. is Hitler still alive?
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
There are only 2 choices: God exists or he does not exist. Can you rely on using only your head to decide?

Lets say that God does not exist. You have 2 choices. You can incorrectly have faith that he does or you can believe that he doesn't. So what if you're wrong? Believers will live a different life on earth then die. End of story. Non-believers will also die. End of their story, too. It's all the same in the end so the only difference is how you live.

Lets say that God (and Jesus) do exist. Again you have 2 choices but the outcomes are radically different this time. If you believe, when you die you will spend eternity in heaven with the Lord, a glorious place free of pain and sin. If you don't believe, you will be confronted with the Lord's judgement and an eternity in a lake of fire. Yes, the Bible does say exactly that.

Are you willing to put your eternal soul at risk because of your opinions? If you believe and are wrong, no big deal. If you don't believe and are wrong, there's no turning back. Your destiny is decided and the pain is terrible. You have the choice while you live.


God created Pascal's Wager. Good bet he knows all about betting the odds for salvation and has the just sentence for it.
Originally Posted by jaguartx
I would like to thank efw, achadwick, Shaman, R White, Acesn, RickyD and the other saints for their input.



Smell the long con?
Originally Posted by carbon12
Originally Posted by jaguartx
I would like to thank efw, achadwick, Shaman, R White, Acesn, RickyD and the other saints for their input.



Smell the long con?


Certainly sounds familiar.
Deuteronomy 29:29New International Version (NIV)

29 The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.
Quote
Originally Posted By AcesNeights
Why do the non-believers always feel compelled to respond to these threads? It's as if they possess no self-control and their need to show their ass is so overwhelming that they just can't resist.

I wonder if their ignorance is so paralyzing that they don't realize they don't have to open the thread. Like moths to a flame...

Why do the believers always feel compelled to pretend they are somehow superior and need to show their ass?

You say they are "ignorant" but you expect them to believe in your fairy tale with no proof it's real.

That seems more ignorant to me.


Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
There are only 2 choices: God exists or he does not exist. Can you rely on using only your head to decide?

Lets say that God does not exist. You have 2 choices. You can incorrectly have faith that he does or you can believe that he doesn't. So what if you're wrong? Believers will live a different life on earth then die. End of story. Non-believers will also die. End of their story, too. It's all the same in the end so the only difference is how you live.

Lets say that God (and Jesus) do exist. Again you have 2 choices but the outcomes are radically different this time. If you believe, when you die you will spend eternity in heaven with the Lord, a glorious place free of pain and sin. If you don't believe, you will be confronted with the Lord's judgement and an eternity in a lake of fire. Yes, the Bible does say exactly that.

Are you willing to put your eternal soul at risk because of your opinions? If you believe and are wrong, no big deal. If you don't believe and are wrong, there's no turning back. Your destiny is decided and the pain is terrible. You have the choice while you live.

So are you praying towards Mecca 5 times a day?
If not you can't get to paradise.
The Koran says that.

Or does a religion's rules only apply to to it's followers and no one else?
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Why do the non-believers always feel compelled to respond to these threads? It's as if they possess no self-control and their need to show their ass is so overwhelming that they just can't resist.

I wonder if their ignorance is so paralyzing that they don't realize they don't have to open the thread. Like moths to a flame...


If I was to start a thread asking other atheists about something, I guarantee all of the holy rollers would jump in and start preaching their myths and legends.
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Why do the non-believers always feel compelled to respond to these threads? It's as if they possess no self-control and their need to show their ass is so overwhelming that they just can't resist.

I wonder if their ignorance is so paralyzing that they don't realize they don't have to open the thread. Like moths to a flame...


Its not just religion. If you go on a public forum and make definitive statement about something, almost anything, you can expect others who disagree will call you out on it. Religion just makes it worse because solid physical proof is usually lacking.

If you come on a forum and try to tell people how stupid they are for not believing that which you cannot prove, and then gloatingly tell them how one day you'll say "I told you so" whilst they burn for eternity in a lake of fire for not believing you, well, I guess some people will feel compelled to respond. Of course not all believers do this, and those who don't rarely get into these kind of pissin matches.
we are not $hitting on him because he's Christian. there's plenty of good Christians here.

we are $hitting on him because he's an ass.
Fair enough. The difference as I see the OP is it was a question, not a claim. Just as questions are asked in the other forums. Those questions are intended for those with answers or helpful information.

I don't go on the cooking forum and shout down someone's use of paprika or go on the Australia forum and contradict them on the way to hunt kangaroo. Why would someone that doesn't believe in something spend so much energy telling others that do believe, not to believe? Just doesn't make sense. There's plenty of threads that the subject matter or premise is not important enough to comment on.
You are just too logical.

So, you dont believe believers seek the face of God and seek affirmation from nonbelievers at the same time?

I suppose you are right, it being hard to serve two masters.
again, comprehension isn't your strength.
just keep sucking in that oxygen, from there we can all find common ground, surely?
Originally Posted by toad
Originally Posted by gregintenn
To see how bent out of shape most self proclaimed unbelievers get at the mention of something the claim to not believe makes me wonder if they are as sure and comfortable in their belief as I am.


to see how many 'believers' seek attention and affirmation makes me wonder if they are sure of their beliefs at all.

Jim is correct. keep your personal beliefs personal and it's all good.


Or the unbelievers could skip this kind of thread and leave it to the believers to discuse things they believe in.
wasn't there a subforum for this kind of topic? something like 'Christ at the Campfire' where these topics could be discussed in peace? what happened there?

I seem to remember it didn't work out too well, even without those pesky 'non-believers'
Originally Posted by toad
isn't there a subforum for this kind of topic? something like 'Christ at the Campfire' where these topics could be discussed in peace?


You have to be a member to post there. So the answer, generally, is "no".
Originally Posted by Ringman
Originally Posted by toad
isn't there a subforum for this kind of topic? something like 'Christ at the Campfire' where these topics could be discussed in peace?


You have to be a member to post there. So the answer, generally, is "no".


so why isn't this topic in that forum? the members don't want the pet monkey to $hit there too?
Can't help it, huh? Just gotta look. Then like a lib, ya just gotta piss.
'public forum' is too complex for ya?
Jump from tall building, pray to god to save you, answer forthcoming
Originally Posted by carbon12
There you have it.

Narcissism, persecution complex and victimhood.

Classic Safariman.

A few more posts and off to the Free Classifieds.


Has more of a Raisuli stink to me, but I don't recall if his any of his preaching had a religious bent.
Does God exist?

Ask Him with a mind open to any answer.

A God incapable of tevealing Himself to an HONEST questioner would not be worthy of the title.

Yeah.......it really is that simple.
Originally Posted by toad
Originally Posted by Ringman
Originally Posted by toad
isn't there a subforum for this kind of topic? something like 'Christ at the Campfire' where these topics could be discussed in peace?


You have to be a member to post there. So the answer, generally, is "no".


so why isn't this topic in that forum? the members don't want the pet monkey to $hit there too?


I guess you didn't get the part about the answer being generally "no".

Why is there a question in the general forum about herbal and aliphatic medicine when some believe in it and others try to warn them about it? Because around a real campfire almost anything is discussed.
and we are discussing right now. just because you or the OP don't like how this discussion is going doesn't mean it isn't a discussion.
Originally Posted by toad
and we are discussing right now. just because you or the OP don't like how this discussion is going doesn't mean it isn't a discussion.


I don't know where you get some of your information. I couldn't care less "how this discussion is going". Like some of the other posters I find it interesting so many don't answer the original poster; they attack.
Quote
I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother. ....a mans enemies will be of his own
household.....(meaning, your relatives would prefer you to be acceptable to them and like them rather than as me). Whoever doesn't be a christian is not worthy of me.

Then Luke 9:26 Whosoever is ashamed of me .... (afraid of offending others?-afraid to repeat my words as they may make other uncomfortable and subsequently badmouth us christians?)


I tell you what, Neighbor, you go over to Saudi Arabia, find a street corner and carry on like you are doing here and this entire forum will applaud your bravery, and admire your conviction.

[but I can sorta picture God shaking his head and thinking;"idiot".]
^^^^LOL!

Originally Posted by Ringman

I don't know where you get some of your information. I couldn't care less "how this discussion is going". Like some of the other posters I find it interesting so many don't answer the original poster; they attack.


when the OP answers his own question in post number one, he ain't looking for answers. he's looking for affirmation.
Originally Posted by toad
^^^^LOL!

Originally Posted by Ringman

I don't know where you get some of your information. I couldn't care less "how this discussion is going". Like some of the other posters I find it interesting so many don't answer the original poster; they attack.


when the OP answers his own question in post number one, he ain't looking for answers. he's looking for affirmation.


Then why are you participating? blush
'open forum' too complex for you, too? let's use your campfire analogy. when you pick a topic to discuss on the campfire, don't bitch about who joins in.
Originally Posted by Snyper
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
There are only 2 choices: God exists or he does not exist. Can you rely on using only your head to decide?

Lets say that God does not exist. You have 2 choices. You can incorrectly have faith that he does or you can believe that he doesn't. So what if you're wrong? Believers will live a different life on earth then die. End of story. Non-believers will also die. End of their story, too. It's all the same in the end so the only difference is how you live.

Lets say that God (and Jesus) do exist. Again you have 2 choices but the outcomes are radically different this time. If you believe, when you die you will spend eternity in heaven with the Lord, a glorious place free of pain and sin. If you don't believe, you will be confronted with the Lord's judgement and an eternity in a lake of fire. Yes, the Bible does say exactly that.

Are you willing to put your eternal soul at risk because of your opinions? If you believe and are wrong, no big deal. If you don't believe and are wrong, there's no turning back. Your destiny is decided and the pain is terrible. You have the choice while you live.

So are you praying towards Mecca 5 times a day?
If not you can't get to paradise.
The Koran says that.

Or does a religion's rules only apply to to it's followers and no one else?
Islam, Bhuddism, Hinduism, Mormanism, JW's, all the rest...they have one thing in common - you have to work your way to heaven. Christianity stands alone. The Bible makes it very clear that you CANNOT work your way in. You get in by faith in Christ alone. Nothing else can do it. No amount of good works can get you there. The pope himself can't get there if he hasn't accepted the sacrifice of Jesus and placed his faith in Jesus for salvation.
All religions outside of Christianity are actually fairly interchangeable in that you're required to earn it. So, it's not a choice of one religion out of hundreds. There are only 2 choices, works or faith.
Originally Posted by toad
and we are discussing right now. just because you or the OP don't like how this discussion is going doesn't mean it isn't a discussion.


Huh?

Aren't you the one who was just asking why this isn't in another "members only" forum?

The open mindedness here seems to be lacking...
Originally Posted by efw
Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
“How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, “This is better than we thought!
The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant?”
Instead they say, “No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.”
A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths.”
― Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space


It may come as a surprise to you that Carl Sagan didn't know much at all about religion; just enough for his feeble mind to condemn it.

I completely agree that modern science has greatly magnified the beauty, breadth, and majesty of the creation... and to its chagrin much of the time, the Creator. My beliefs have no qualm with modern science; just the godless dogma of its priesthood.


Carl knew a great deal about religion. His battlefield was the Cosmos.

“Who is more humble? The scientist who looks at the universe with an open mind and accepts whatever the universe has to teach us, or somebody who says everything in this book must be considered the literal truth and never mind the fallibility of all the human beings involved?”
― Carl Sagan

“In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion.”
― Carl Sagan
Originally Posted by curdog4570
Quote
I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother. ....a mans enemies will be of his own
household.....(meaning, your relatives would prefer you to be acceptable to them and like them rather than as me). Whoever doesn't be a christian is not worthy of me.

Then Luke 9:26 Whosoever is ashamed of me .... (afraid of offending others?-afraid to repeat my words as they may make other uncomfortable and subsequently badmouth us christians?)


I tell you what, Neighbor, you go over to Saudi Arabia, find a street corner and carry on like you are doing here and this entire forum will applaud your bravery, and admire your conviction.

[but I can sorta picture God shaking his head and thinking;"idiot".]


We need to keep quiet and not upset folks, right? We shouldnt discuss God's word, prophecys that have been fulfilled or those that will. Lets leave consideration of Him at the church house. Get Him out of school, too. We best hide our light and the Good News. That's worked out real well, huh?

They gays and AAs didnt think so either.
Originally Posted by jaguartx
How can we find out if God exists?


Go to the mountain. If the little birds and animals surrounding you, and the sound of the wind in the trees, do not answer your question, then you are likely Godless.

Originally Posted by AcesNeights
I ain't never been called a saint nor am I even close. I'm an [bleep] and very imperfect, I say whatever is on my mind without regard for feelings and fall short of grace all the time. I'm someone that believes in God and Jesus Christ as his son sent for our salvation. I believe, not to hedge my bets but because I've seen his works and I've seen him act in my life.

My mom was a saint and I'm nowhere as good as mom was.



Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
The Biblical definition of saint is anyone who's saved. Our modern definition makes it sound like you have to be perfect. The Catholic practice of glorifying people hasn't helped a bit. No saint can answer your prayers, Catholic or otherwise.


This.
Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
Originally Posted by efw
Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
“How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, “This is better than we thought!
The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant?”
Instead they say, “No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.”
A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths.”
― Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space


It may come as a surprise to you that Carl Sagan didn't know much at all about religion; just enough for his feeble mind to condemn it.

I completely agree that modern science has greatly magnified the beauty, breadth, and majesty of the creation... and to its chagrin much of the time, the Creator. My beliefs have no qualm with modern science; just the godless dogma of its priesthood.


Carl knew a great deal about religion. His battlefield was the Cosmos.

“Who is more humble? The scientist who looks at the universe with an open mind and accepts whatever the universe has to teach us, or somebody who says everything in this book must be considered the literal truth and never mind the fallibility of all the human beings involved?”
― Carl Sagan

“In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion.”
― Carl Sagan



As a side note, ol' Carll was all agin animal research but when it looked like his number was up, he accepted treatment based on animal research and justified it because he was so important to the future of the world. ;-{>8
Quote
They gays and AAs didnt think so either.


You can correct the punctuation and your comment still won't make sense.
Originally Posted by jaguartx
How can we find out if God exists?


Die.

Originally Posted by ltppowell
Originally Posted by jaguartx
How can we find out if God exists?


Die.



We still may not know...
Originally Posted by oldtrapper
Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
Originally Posted by efw
Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
“How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, “This is better than we thought!
The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant?”
Instead they say, “No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.”
A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths.”
― Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space


It may come as a surprise to you that Carl Sagan didn't know much at all about religion; just enough for his feeble mind to condemn it.

I completely agree that modern science has greatly magnified the beauty, breadth, and majesty of the creation... and to its chagrin much of the time, the Creator. My beliefs have no qualm with modern science; just the godless dogma of its priesthood.


Carl knew a great deal about religion. His battlefield was the Cosmos.

“Who is more humble? The scientist who looks at the universe with an open mind and accepts whatever the universe has to teach us, or somebody who says everything in this book must be considered the literal truth and never mind the fallibility of all the human beings involved?”
― Carl Sagan

“In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion.”
― Carl Sagan



As a side note, ol' Carll was all agin animal research but when it looked like his number was up, he accepted treatment based on animal research and justified it because he was so important to the future of the world. ;-{>8



Reread his quotes about changing one's mind...


“We can judge our progress by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers, our willingness to embrace what is true rather than what feels good.”
― Carl Sagan
Hummm, courage of our questions? All right. wink
I dont think that these types of threads are designed for the "believers". Its fishing.

Not a bleeding thing wrong with that, just call it what it is.

Hard to imagine that a little spirited discussion would be that unwanted.
trolling maybe?
Originally Posted by ltppowell
Originally Posted by jaguartx
How can we find out if God exists?


Die.



That's where I am and it won't matter much then.
Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
Originally Posted by oldtrapper
Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
Originally Posted by efw
Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
“How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, “This is better than we thought!
The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant?”
Instead they say, “No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.”
A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths.”
― Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space


It may come as a surprise to you that Carl Sagan didn't know much at all about religion; just enough for his feeble mind to condemn it.

I completely agree that modern science has greatly magnified the beauty, breadth, and majesty of the creation... and to its chagrin much of the time, the Creator. My beliefs have no qualm with modern science; just the godless dogma of its priesthood.


Carl knew a great deal about religion. His battlefield was the Cosmos.

“Who is more humble? The scientist who looks at the universe with an open mind and accepts whatever the universe has to teach us, or somebody who says everything in this book must be considered the literal truth and never mind the fallibility of all the human beings involved?”
― Carl Sagan

“In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion.”
― Carl Sagan



As a side note, ol' Carll was all agin animal research but when it looked like his number was up, he accepted treatment based on animal research and justified it because he was so important to the future of the world. ;-{>8



Reread his quotes about changing one's mind...


“We can judge our progress by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers, our willingness to embrace what is true rather than what feels good.”
― Carl Sagan



Fraid you missed the point. Carl was not beyond a little enlightened self interest in his decision making.
Originally Posted by toad
'open forum' too complex for you, too? let's use your campfire analogy. when you pick a topic to discuss on the campfire, don't bitch about who joins in.


I, again, will use my earlier phrase. I couldn't care less who is on a thread. Therefore I don't complain about who is posting; but I do respond to what appears contradictory posts at times.
Originally Posted by oldtrapper

Fraid you missed the point. Carl was not beyond a little enlightened self interest in his decision making.


As with anyone, I do not agree with everything Sagan said and wrote. But he did eat meat. For him the keyword was “gratuitous” use of animals. And Sagan would change his beliefs, but only when better evidence came to light.

In my writings, I have tired to show how closely related we are to other animals, how cruel it is to gratuitously inflict pain on them, and how morally bankrupt it is to slaughter them, say, to manufacture lipstick. But still, as Dr. Thomas put it in his Nobel Prize lecture, "The marrow grafting could not have reached clinical application without animal research, first in in-bred rodents and then in out-bred species, particularly the dog." I remain very conflicted in this issue. I would not be alive today if not for the research on animals.
[...]
Scientists and technicians work for years—against long odds, often for low salaries and never with a guarantee of success. They have many motivations, but one of them is the hope of helping others, of curing diseases, of staving off death. When too much cynicism threatens to engulf us, it is buoying to remember how pervasive goodness is. 

Five thousand people prayed for me at an Easter service at the Cathedral of St. John the Divine in New York City, the largest church in Christendom. A Hindu priest described a large prayer vigil for me held on banks of the Ganges. The Imam of North America told be about his prayers for my recovery. Many Christians and Jews wrote me to tell about theirs. While I do not think that, if there is a god, his plan for me will be altered by prayer, I’m more grateful than I can say to those—including so many whom I’ve never met—who have pulled for me during my illness.

Many of them have asked me how it is possible to face death without the certainty of an afterlife. I can only say that it hasn’t been a problem. With reservations about "feeble souls," I have the view of a hero of mine, Albert Einstein: "I cannot conceive of a god who rewards and punishes his creatures or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves.

Neither can I—nor would I want to—conceive of an individual that survives his physical death. Let feeble souls, from fear for absurd egotism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoting striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature."
Carl Sagan
Both Feynman and my next door neigbor have ripped Sagan a new one for bad science.

With Feynman it was about nuke winter caused be nuke test.
With my neighbor at a DOD symposium in Boston, it was about nuke winter caused by nuke war.

In both occasions Sagan had some back of an envelope climate change calculation and was overstating his case.



The blessing is that Sagan was such a bad scientist, that we have these wonderful lectures on scientific method by Feynman.

Step one of science: guess

I love that. It cannot be separated from the human spirit. Science cannot do science. Only man can.
Originally Posted by ltppowell
Originally Posted by jaguartx
How can we find out if God exists?


Die.



This presumes you have a consciousness after death. If we do not, this is not the solution.
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
Originally Posted by Snyper
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
There are only 2 choices: God exists or he does not exist. Can you rely on using only your head to decide?

Lets say that God does not exist. You have 2 choices. You can incorrectly have faith that he does or you can believe that he doesn't. So what if you're wrong? Believers will live a different life on earth then die. End of story. Non-believers will also die. End of their story, too. It's all the same in the end so the only difference is how you live.

Lets say that God (and Jesus) do exist. Again you have 2 choices but the outcomes are radically different this time. If you believe, when you die you will spend eternity in heaven with the Lord, a glorious place free of pain and sin. If you don't believe, you will be confronted with the Lord's judgement and an eternity in a lake of fire. Yes, the Bible does say exactly that.

Are you willing to put your eternal soul at risk because of your opinions? If you believe and are wrong, no big deal. If you don't believe and are wrong, there's no turning back. Your destiny is decided and the pain is terrible. You have the choice while you live.

So are you praying towards Mecca 5 times a day?
If not you can't get to paradise.
The Koran says that.

Or does a religion's rules only apply to to it's followers and no one else?
Islam, Bhuddism, Hinduism, Mormanism, JW's, all the rest...they have one thing in common - you have to work your way to heaven. Christianity stands alone. The Bible makes it very clear that you CANNOT work your way in. You get in by faith in Christ alone. Nothing else can do it. No amount of good works can get you there. The pope himself can't get there if he hasn't accepted the sacrifice of Jesus and placed his faith in Jesus for salvation.
All religions outside of Christianity are actually fairly interchangeable in that you're required to earn it. So, it's not a choice of one religion out of hundreds. There are only 2 choices, works or faith.


So you just picked the cheapest one, the one that required the least work on your part to earn an eternal paradise?
Originally Posted by carbon12
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
There are only 2 choices: God exists or he does not exist. Can you rely on using only your head to decide?

Lets say that God does not exist. You have 2 choices. You can incorrectly have faith that he does or you can believe that he doesn't. So what if you're wrong? Believers will live a different life on earth then die. End of story. Non-believers will also die. End of their story, too. It's all the same in the end so the only difference is how you live.

Lets say that God (and Jesus) do exist. Again you have 2 choices but the outcomes are radically different this time. If you believe, when you die you will spend eternity in heaven with the Lord, a glorious place free of pain and sin. If you don't believe, you will be confronted with the Lord's judgement and an eternity in a lake of fire. Yes, the Bible does say exactly that.

Are you willing to put your eternal soul at risk because of your opinions? If you believe and are wrong, no big deal. If you don't believe and are wrong, there's no turning back. Your destiny is decided and the pain is terrible. You have the choice while you live.


God created Pascal's Wager. Good bet he knows all about betting the odds for salvation and has the just sentence for it.


Yea, so we are supposed to lie, and claim to believe when we don't in hopes that sum god will be too stupid to know the difference?

And it's not a simple choice between two options. There are THOUSANDS of god claims. Choosing the wrong one can piss on the other 999+

Let's say you pretend to believe and there is not god. You still experience a loss in the this life.

How much time did you spend on your knee's praying?

How much money of your disposable income did you give to the church?

How many Sundays did you spend in Church when you could of been doing something else?

To claim you would "loose nothing" following an erroneous belief all you life is factually wrong.
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Why do the non-believers always feel compelled to respond to these threads? It's as if they possess no self-control and their need to show their ass is so overwhelming that they just can't resist.

I wonder if their ignorance is so paralyzing that they don't realize they don't have to open the thread. Like moths to a flame...


If you don't like our responses, you don't have to open the thread.
Originally Posted by jaguartx
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Why do the non-believers always feel compelled to respond to these threads? It's as if they possess no self-control and their need to show their ass is so overwhelming that they just can't resist.

I wonder if their ignorance is so paralyzing that they don't realize they don't have to open the thread. Like moths to a flame...


Zactly. They take offense at hearing or reading the Lords words. It instills fear and what is feared is hated.

Hebrews 4:12. The word of the Lord is alive and active, sharper than any double edged sword. It penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow, it judges the thoughts and atitudes of the heart.

Sorry, Cross. Acts 22:15 For though shalt be a witness unto all men...

He also tells us that though we as believers are saved, we who do not witness for Him are wicked.


No.

We do not fear that which we believe does not exist.
Quote
Originally Posted By jaguartx
Originally Posted By AcesNeights
Why do the non-believers always feel compelled to respond to these threads? It's as if they possess no self-control and their need to show their ass is so overwhelming that they just can't resist.

I wonder if their ignorance is so paralyzing that they don't realize they don't have to open the thread. Like moths to a flame...


Zactly. They take offense at hearing or reading the Lords words. It instills fear and what is feared is hated.

Hebrews 4:12. The word of the Lord is alive and active, sharper than any double edged sword. It penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow, it judges the thoughts and atitudes of the heart.

Sorry, Cross. Acts 22:15 For though shalt be a witness unto all men...

He also tells us that though we as believers are saved, we who do not witness for Him are wicked.

He tells us you must pray facing Mecca, 5 times a day if you want to get to heaven.

Do you follow that rule?

If not please explain why.
I believe and I am not ashamed.

When in the Marines, there were some who at first didn't believe, but they did later on.

I am lucky I guess, I've known the presence of God. I've also known the presence of angels.

I have also felt the presence of evil.

Call me all the names you want and diss me all you want. I wish you all the best and pray that you too may come to believe.



Oolong is doing well on the Hang Sang but green is down in Hong Kong.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by jaguartx
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Why do the non-believers always feel compelled to respond to these threads? It's as if they possess no self-control and their need to show their ass is so overwhelming that they just can't resist.

I wonder if their ignorance is so paralyzing that they don't realize they don't have to open the thread. Like moths to a flame...


Zactly. They take offense at hearing or reading the Lords words. It instills fear and what is feared is hated.

Hebrews 4:12. The word of the Lord is alive and active, sharper than any double edged sword. It penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow, it judges the thoughts and atitudes of the heart.

Sorry, Cross. Acts 22:15 For though shalt be a witness unto all men...

He also tells us that though we as believers are saved, we who do not witness for Him are wicked.


No.

We do not fear that which we believe does not exist.



Considering atheism:

“…if there is no God, then there is no difficulty reconciling nature and suffering. Nature (and this world we live in) is indifferent and unintelligent, and that leaves no one to stop the cruel deeds damaged minds or the devastation of natural disasters or disease.”

“The default position of the atheist is one of; ‘I do not believe due to the lack of evidence.” This is often followed by some declaration that a powerful God who lets these terrible things happen is not one to be believed in or worshipped anyway.

At least, AS comes right and declares he is an atheist.


This is often followed by some statement that judges God to be not loving, not kind, vindictive and even cruel. The question is posed; “Why should I believe in such a God?”

One is not required to believe. If there is no God then what does it matter? “The suffering and death of children is just a cold fact of nature….nature is unthinking and indifferent.” Our emotional distress over this is simply some natural brain construct that causes temporary feelings of unease, or distress if the loss is close to some person; but that is of no consequence either. The suffering of a child does not really matter and death, of a child or loved one, is really nothing more than the winking off of a light that was no more than small ripple on the ocean of one planet in a universe of billions of planets.

If there is no God, then religion is at best a benign hoax. And who is to say that one religion or set of morals is better than another? We just have competing tribes bound together with some tragic set of common beliefs. It matters not (in eternity) to kill a child or an enemy if he is not one of “your tribe.”

Lots of room in atheism for twisted morality.

TF


anyway, gotta get back on the road.
Originally Posted by toad
^^^^LOL!

Originally Posted by Ringman

I don't know where you get some of your information. I couldn't care less "how this discussion is going". Like some of the other posters I find it interesting so many don't answer the original poster; they attack.


when the OP answers his own question in post number one, he ain't looking for answers. he's looking for affirmation.


And post count. He/she is building the foundation for the long con.
Yet there is a lot of room in any given religion for twisted morality as well (Inquisition, honor killings, etc.). As long as people bend their version of the word of God to their own ends, there is room for immoral behavior. Conversely, it is possible to be a good, moral person without believing in god or attending a church. Back to the OP's question, I don't have an answer for how to find out if God exists, because there is and can be no empirical evidence that God does or does not exist. But people can observe circumstantial evidence and chose to believe or not.
Originally Posted by Snyper
Originally Posted by Robert_White
John Locke in "The Reasonableness of Christianity" argued that there was in fact, credible evidence, that was altogether conclusive.

Daniel 9 and the time line from the decree to rebuild to the Messiah is just one among many.

https://www.amazon.com/Coming-Prince-Marvelous-Concerning-Antichrist/dp/0615965881

So his "evidence" that the bible and god is real is something he read in the bible?

Seriously?


Isaiah foresaw the coming of the Messiah of Israel, Savior of the world about 700 years before it happened:

42 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.


Isaiah 7
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.



Isaiah 53King James Version (KJV)

53 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Originally Posted by Bugger
...I've known the presence of God. I've also known the presence of angels. I have also felt the presence of evil...


Same here on all 3.

Preparing to fish one day, decades ago, I was drifting, alone in the cockpit of my then 38' sportfisher, when a whale surfaced within spitting distance. It seemed to hang there, suspended, just looking at me benevolently. For the first time in my life I felt truly connected to another living being. This was a long-lost brother I had never met. This creature was God and I was God, at the same time.

The moment seemed to last and last. And then the creature slowly sank out of sight. But I was left truly changed forever.
Originally Posted by pal
Originally Posted by Bugger
...I've known the presence of God. I've also known the presence of angels. I have also felt the presence of evil...


Same here on all 3.

Preparing to fish one day, decades ago, I was drifting, alone in the cockpit of my then 38' sportfisher, when a whale surfaced within spitting distance. It seemed to hang there, suspended, just looking at me benevolently. For the first time in my life I felt truly connected to another living being. This was a long-lost brother I had never met. This creature was God and I was God, at the same time.

The moment seemed to last and last. And then the creature slowly sank out of sight. But I was left truly changed forever.


That pearl was not wasted on swine.

Thanks.
i know he does by things i've seen/experienced in my life.
Quote
i know he does by things i've seen/experienced in my life.


Sorry Roger....... that hasn't been "peer reviewed" so it counts for naught. grin
Originally Posted by toad
Originally Posted by gregintenn
To see how bent out of shape most self proclaimed unbelievers get at the mention of something the claim to not believe makes me wonder if they are as sure and comfortable in their belief as I am.


to see how many 'believers' seek attention and affirmation makes me wonder if they are sure of their beliefs at all.

Jim is correct. keep your personal beliefs personal and it's all good.


Works for me. You can't, however, say you weren't warned. smile
Originally Posted by Snyper
Quote
Originally Posted By jaguartx
Originally Posted By AcesNeights
Why do the non-believers always feel compelled to respond to these threads? It's as if they possess no self-control and their need to show their ass is so overwhelming that they just can't resist.

I wonder if their ignorance is so paralyzing that they don't realize they don't have to open the thread. Like moths to a flame...


Zactly. They take offense at hearing or reading the Lords words. It instills fear and what is feared is hated.

Hebrews 4:12. The word of the Lord is alive and active, sharper than any double edged sword. It penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow, it judges the thoughts and atitudes of the heart.

Sorry, Cross. Acts 22:15 For though shalt be a witness unto all men...

He also tells us that though we as believers are saved, we who do not witness for Him are wicked.

He tells us you must pray facing Mecca, 5 times a day if you want to get to heaven .

Do you follow that rule?

If not please explain why.


You goose, that is PREY, not PRAY.
Good un....grin
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Why do the non-believers always feel compelled to respond to these threads? It's as if they possess no self-control and their need to show their ass is so overwhelming that they just can't resist.

I wonder if their ignorance is so paralyzing that they don't realize they don't have to open the thread. Like moths to a flame...


If you don't like our responses, you don't have to open the thread.


It's not the responses that I take issue with, it's your ignorance and obfuscation that is annoying. You don't add anything to these threads because you can't. You aren't seeking answers you're trying to show us how smart you are. Your insecurities are glaringly obvious but your pride doesn't allow you the benefit fellowship. If you don't believe in God you don't have to open these threads. It's obvious your piety prevents your understanding and has hardened your resolve to be "right".
a blessing on Mordecai is a curse on Haman.

Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
Originally Posted by ltppowell
Originally Posted by jaguartx
How can we find out if God exists?


Die.



We still may not know...


Maybe not, but I will feel better if the bastard goes ahead with LT's suggestion...preferably soon and horribly.
Originally Posted by JSTUART
Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
Originally Posted by ltppowell
Originally Posted by jaguartx
How can we find out if God exists?


Die.



We still may not know...


Maybe not, but I will feel better if the bastard goes ahead with LT's suggestion...preferably soon and horribly.
That's not very Christian.....wait! grin
Originally Posted by RickyD
That's not very Christian.....wait! grin


Heh heh, I saw what you did there. smile
Originally Posted by Snyper
Quote
How can we find out if God exists?

You can't unless you die first.
Then it's too late to matter.


The most intelligent post you have ever made!!

Right on !!
Originally Posted by Bigbuck215
Originally Posted by Snyper
Quote
How can we find out if God exists?

You can't unless you die first.
Then it's too late to matter.


The most intelligent post you have ever made!!

Right on !!


well, see even that is debatable. i'm speaking of the die first, and find out part of the post. don't know about any intelligence.

but, there are more than one religions, denominations, believers, etc. that do believe in fact the trajectory of a soul can be influenced, even after death of the physical body. but i don't want to confuse anyone as they practice their own particular cosmology.
We will find out with certainty when we die. It would be a shame to miss out on the best free gift you were ever offered and regret it for eternity.
how soon after death do we agree that our final destination is found out by our Soul, Spirit, whatever?

at 0 moment, 1 sec, one minute, one hour, one day, one week, one month, one year? we're talking Earth time here, just in case you might be wondering?

no time to pray between the last breath, and eternity? or is there? what if one or more of a group is praying for the departed soul?

i just trying to better understand how it all works, pretty much. sounds like there's some experts on here. it'd be good to hear what they have to say about the subject, so that we all could better understand.
According to the Bible, one can know while they are living. No need to wait or speculate about after death.
Originally Posted by GeorgiaBoy
According to the Bible, one can know while they are living. No need to wait or speculate about after death.


i like that concept, belief, or option. in the real world, i have received different viewpoints. maybe they were wrong?

while souls are in play, then humans on the earth have input into their destination. i'm not sure that's true, but it might be?

why, how, or when did god divide the line of demarcation? what's the verses that support that, anyone know for sure?
step off a high building, you will know quick enough Thomas
In the blink of an eye. When you become a christian, you enter into the kingdom of God, As previously reported you have become a saint in the Lords eyes. You have already faced the judgement if you are a christian. Your name is in the book of life. (Oh hell, did I just say that?)
a lot of folks down here on the Urthen needs a devel to help make things right. i mean a God, real & true, wouldn't do anything to hurt a human, would they? but a debil, why they'd bring leukemia, cancer, wrecks on the highway, falling out of tree stands, etc. etc.

God is the good guy, y'all. the debil not so much. thanks be to the debil to take care of the bad things that happens to humans, allowing the Real God to skate free.
Originally Posted by jaguartx
In the blink of an eye. When you become a christian, you enter into the kingdom of God, As previously reported you have become a saint in the Lords eyes. You have already faced the judgement if you are a christian. Your name is in the book of life. (Oh hell, did I just say that?)


Please prove this.
To proceed, i mean, to continue:

About 2600 years ago Ezekiel prophecied that the Jewish nation would be reborn in THE LATTER YEARS before the Messiah returned to judge a great enemy who would rise up against them. The wasteland would be restored from the sword of their previous destruction (by the Roman Empire). Ezekiel 38:8.
This prophecy came to pass in 1958.

Quote
what's the verses that support that, anyone know for sure?


"Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit." (1 John 4:13)

It is surprising to note that this phrase "hereby know" occurs eight times in the little epistle of 1 John. Each of these listed below is given as a means of both testing the genuineness of our professed faith in Christ and then of giving assurance and comfort to the true believer.

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments" (1 John 2:3).

"But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him" (1 John 2:5).

"Hereby perceive |same Greek word as 'know'| we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren" (1 John 3:16).

"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him" (1 John 3:18-19).

"And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us" (1 John 3:24).

"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God" (1 John 4:2).

"We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error" (1 John 4:6).

Originally Posted by Gus
a lot of folks down here on the Urthen needs a devel to help make things right. i mean a God, real & true, wouldn't do anything to hurt a human, would they? but a debil, why they'd bring leukemia, cancer, wrecks on the highway, falling out of tree stands, etc. etc.

God is the good guy, y'all. the debil not so much. thanks be to the debil to take care of the bad things that happens to humans, allowing the Real God to skate free.


No need to be condesending.

As Dr. Phil would say, "When one chooses an action, they also choose the consequences."
Saints: only a partial list and of that, only from the new testament.

Acts 9:13, Acts 9:13, Acts 26:10, Romans 1:7, 1 Cor 1:2......i could go on.

Ok, OT: Psalm 106:16 (sanctified means saints)
Originally Posted by GeorgiaBoy
Originally Posted by Gus
a lot of folks down here on the Urthen needs a devel to help make things right. i mean a God, real & true, wouldn't do anything to hurt a human, would they? but a debil, why they'd bring leukemia, cancer, wrecks on the highway, falling out of tree stands, etc. etc.

God is the good guy, y'all. the debil not so much. thanks be to the debil to take care of the bad things that happens to humans, allowing the Real God to skate free.


No need to be condesending.

As Dr. Phil would say, "When one chooses an action, they also choose the consequences."


Gus gets a pass in my book because of his preface:"a lot of folks down here on the Urthen....".

"That ol'debil got into me" is still pretty prevalent in certain circles. They could be right.
I think the ol'debil gets blamed for a lot of things that aint completely his fault.
Quote
I think the ol'debil gets blamed for a lot of things that aint completely his fault.


In the parable of the seeds Satan is blamed only 25% of the time.
I have no doubt that we are our own worst enimies.
Originally Posted by pal
Originally Posted by Bugger
...I've known the presence of God. I've also known the presence of angels. I have also felt the presence of evil...


Same here on all 3.

Preparing to fish one day, decades ago, I was drifting, alone in the cockpit of my then 38' sportfisher, when a whale surfaced within spitting distance. It seemed to hang there, suspended, just looking at me benevolently. For the first time in my life I felt truly connected to another living being. This was a long-lost brother I had never met. This creature was God and I was God, at the same time.

The moment seemed to last and last. And then the creature slowly sank out of sight. But I was left truly changed forever.


So you are a Pantheism?
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Why do the non-believers always feel compelled to respond to these threads? It's as if they possess no self-control and their need to show their ass is so overwhelming that they just can't resist.

I wonder if their ignorance is so paralyzing that they don't realize they don't have to open the thread. Like moths to a flame...


If you don't like our responses, you don't have to open the thread.


It's not the responses that I take issue with, it's your ignorance and obfuscation that is annoying. You don't add anything to these threads because you can't. You aren't seeking answers you're trying to show us how smart you are. Your insecurities are glaringly obvious but your pride doesn't allow you the benefit fellowship. If you don't believe in God you don't have to open these threads. It's obvious your piety prevents your understanding and has hardened your resolve to be "right".


If I'm creating some level of cognitive dissidence for you, that a good thing. If you don't like it, don't open these threads because I will not let your views be posted without intellectual opposition.

It's an open forum, I have as much right to post here as you do, and will not be silenced just because you don't like what I have to say.
In the big scheme of things, it won't be long until we all see God.

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the word was God.

That I belive with all my heart and soul.

g
Originally Posted by TF49
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by jaguartx
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Why do the non-believers always feel compelled to respond to these threads? It's as if they possess no self-control and their need to show their ass is so overwhelming that they just can't resist.

I wonder if their ignorance is so paralyzing that they don't realize they don't have to open the thread. Like moths to a flame...


Zactly. They take offense at hearing or reading the Lords words. It instills fear and what is feared is hated.

Hebrews 4:12. The word of the Lord is alive and active, sharper than any double edged sword. It penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow, it judges the thoughts and atitudes of the heart.

Sorry, Cross. Acts 22:15 For though shalt be a witness unto all men...

He also tells us that though we as believers are saved, we who do not witness for Him are wicked.


No.

We do not fear that which we believe does not exist.



Considering atheism:

“…if there is no God, then there is no difficulty reconciling nature and suffering. Nature (and this world we live in) is indifferent and unintelligent, and that leaves no one to stop the cruel deeds damaged minds or the devastation of natural disasters or disease.”

“The default position of the atheist is one of; ‘I do not believe due to the lack of evidence.” This is often followed by some declaration that a powerful God who lets these terrible things happen is not one to be believed in or worshipped anyway.

At least, AS comes right and declares he is an atheist.


This is often followed by some statement that judges God to be not loving, not kind, vindictive and even cruel. The question is posed; “Why should I believe in such a God?”

One is not required to believe. If there is no God then what does it matter? “The suffering and death of children is just a cold fact of nature….nature is unthinking and indifferent.” Our emotional distress over this is simply some natural brain construct that causes temporary feelings of unease, or distress if the loss is close to some person; but that is of no consequence either. The suffering of a child does not really matter and death, of a child or loved one, is really nothing more than the winking off of a light that was no more than small ripple on the ocean of one planet in a universe of billions of planets.

If there is no God, then religion is at best a benign hoax. And who is to say that one religion or set of morals is better than another? We just have competing tribes bound together with some tragic set of common beliefs. It matters not (in eternity) to kill a child or an enemy if he is not one of “your tribe.”

Lots of room in atheism for twisted morality.

TF


anyway, gotta get back on the road.



Even more room in religion.

Consider how many Christian who consider all of God's killing in the Bible to be moral and just. Consider all the Muslim who praise God as they commit their atrocities, and all the evil committed in the name of some god throughout history.

Divine Command Theory is not a pathway to morality.
Try praying!

Maybe you'll have an awakening!!
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
...So you are a Pantheism?


I tolerate people from all religions. And believe each of us should be free to worship as he chooses. I would never assume that my own religious or spiritual beliefs should be imposed on others.

Pantheism is the gateway to Christianity so it's easy for you to make an unwarranted assumption regarding Pal's post.

It's pretty much the "default" position for the human mind and a step away from Agnosticism in the direction of "believing".

As an Atheist, you have stepped in the opposite direction. "Unbelief" is not a natural state of mind so it must be reaffirmed constantly, which explains your presence in this discussion [ to my satisfaction, that is].

"No one comes to the Father except thru me" is Jesus introducing Himself as having always been the Agent who reconciles a man with his Creator. He was speaking as much to Pantheists as to Jews.
cd--thanks. Good post.
Originally Posted by Ringman
Quote
I think the ol'debil gets blamed for a lot of things that aint completely his fault.


In the parable of the seeds Satan is blamed only 25% of the time.


Not for RM since he has had me on Ignore for years so can remain misguided.

In his parable, Jesus gave 4 possible fates of the seeds.

Jesus did not say the 4 possible fates are divided in percentages.
antelope_sniper,

Quote
I will not let your views be posted without intellectual opposition.


Your post tells me you are an evangelist. You try to be an apologists for atheism. It appears you and I are exactly alike. I post to bring the Truth of the Scripture to these types of threads. smile
Originally Posted by Ringman
... I post to bring the Truth of the Scripture to these types of threads. smile

".....and the beat goes on...." Sonny Bono
Originally Posted by Sauer200
Originally Posted by jaguartx
In the blink of an eye. When you become a christian, you enter into the kingdom of God, As previously reported you have become a saint in the Lords eyes. You have already faced the judgement if you are a christian. Your name is in the book of life. (Oh hell, did I just say that?)


Please prove this.


Well, how about you prove him wrong.
Originally Posted by Bigbuck215


Well, how about you prove him wrong.


Proof? Look here: al-Qurʾān.

About as good of a proof as any. smirk
Originally Posted by GeorgiaBoy
I think the ol'debil gets blamed for a lot of things that aint completely his fault.


No doubt; man's inhumanity to man is the fault of our depravity. Satan can all too often sit back and watch us do his work for him.
Originally Posted by Bigbuck215
Originally Posted by Sauer200
Originally Posted by jaguartx
In the blink of an eye. When you become a christian, you enter into the kingdom of God, As previously reported you have become a saint in the Lords eyes. You have already faced the judgement if you are a christian. Your name is in the book of life. (Oh hell, did I just say that?)


Please prove this.


Well, how about you prove him wrong.


He made the declarative not me.

(Hint.... neither he nor I can prove or disprove it.)
Originally Posted by Bigbuck215
Originally Posted by Sauer200
Originally Posted by jaguartx
In the blink of an eye. When you become a christian, you enter into the kingdom of God, As previously reported you have become a saint in the Lords eyes. You have already faced the judgement if you are a christian. Your name is in the book of life. (Oh hell, did I just say that?)


Please prove this.


Well, how about you prove him wrong.


I saw the same ghost in my house twice. Prove I didn't. I don't actually believe I saw that ghost but it seemed real enough when it happened. I would probably fail a polygraph test if I said I didn't see it. I was stone cold sober and on no drugs of any kind either time.
Originally Posted by victoro
Originally Posted by Bigbuck215
Originally Posted by Sauer200
Originally Posted by jaguartx
In the blink of an eye. When you become a christian, you enter into the kingdom of God, As previously reported you have become a saint in the Lords eyes. You have already faced the judgement if you are a christian. Your name is in the book of life. (Oh hell, did I just say that?)


Please prove this.


Well, how about you prove him wrong.


I saw the same ghost in my house twice. Prove I didn't. I don't actually believe I saw that ghost but it seemed real enough when it happened. I would probably fail a polygraph test if I said I didn't see it. I was stone cold sober and on no drugs of any kind either time.


High fever? Recent blow to the head?
(Just being a dick. I've seen things I can't begin to believe I saw, but I saw 'em. )
Originally Posted by Sauer200
Originally Posted by Bigbuck215
Originally Posted by Sauer200
Originally Posted by jaguartx
In the blink of an eye. When you become a christian, you enter into the kingdom of God, As previously reported you have become a saint in the Lords eyes. You have already faced the judgement if you are a christian. Your name is in the book of life. (Oh hell, did I just say that?)


Please prove this.


Well, how about you prove him wrong.


He made the declarative not me.

(Hint.... neither he nor I can prove or disprove it.)


Prove what- that scripture refers to believers as saints?

Read Acts.
Do atheists believe in ghosts? Has an atheist ever seen a ghost?
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by TF49

Lots of room in atheism for twisted morality.


Even more room in religion.



Please back that up with quantifiable evidence of equal quality to that which would convince you that there is a God.
Quote
Originally Posted By Ringman
... I post to bring the Truth of the Scripture to these types of threads. smile

Yeah, because everyone comes to a hunting/shooting/outdoor site to hear a sermon from those who consider themselves morally superior because they believe one fairy tale over another.

Originally Posted by Snyper
Quote
Originally Posted By Ringman
... I post to bring the Truth of the Scripture to these types of threads. smile

Yeah, because everyone comes to a hunting/shooting/outdoor site to hear a sermon from those who consider themselves morally superior because they believe one fairy tale over another.



this is the very thingy that troubles me most about all the Great Religions. Everything of any import happened long ago, and far away.

it seems like for thousands of years, all anybody has done has been to pass the appropriate story forward. and now, here we are. the muslims killing everybody that ain't like themselves. apparently they especially condemn christians and hindus. and they show great disfavor toward homos, the feminine species, alcohol, and a few other items on their list.
Originally Posted by Snyper
Quote
Originally Posted By Ringman
... I post to bring the Truth of the Scripture to these types of threads. smile

Yeah, because everyone comes to a hunting/shooting/outdoor site to hear a sermon from those who consider themselves morally superior because they believe one fairy tale over another.



Pot let me introduce you to kettle...

Takes two to tango and yer fairy tale and moral superiority doesn't smell any better.
Originally Posted by Snyper
Yeah, because everyone comes to a hunting/shooting/outdoor site to hear a sermon...

No one seems to have a problem with the "what is your favorite brand of mayonnaise" type threads, or the "what is your favorite brand of aftershave" type threads on a hunting/shooting/outdoor site.

People talk about all kinds of stuff while sitting around a campfire.

If folks don't wanna participate in a particular discussion, then don't...!
die
I did. It's how I got reborn. I used to be a real asswhole.
so, God would willingly save us all, if we'd just let him. is that it?
Seriously, I find the incredible complexity and vastness of the universe, in the face of man's utter inability to create anything, from nothing, very compelling. just saying.
Originally Posted by Sharpsman
Try praying!

Maybe you'll have an awakening!!


I did and I did.

I agree its clear that we can not physically prove He exists (because He doesn't want those with no faith in His word, Jesus, to get on board).

It seems the open-minded who are willing to objectively examine the many miraculous fullfilments of Bible prophecy can reach a point of empiracle proof to the point of beyond the shadow of doubt.

The closeminded are not willing to examine the possibilities any more than nwa is able to objectively determine that letting a bunch of criminal aliens be released back into our population is not beneficial to our country or that progressives are working to destroy the 2A.
The "convinced" are not mentally capable of escaping their lack of knowledge because its simpler to avoid mental scrutiny. They are lost.

The purpose of the thread was to enlighten those who are realizing their life is missing something, and to reaquaint belivers with truths of history that are aligned with Bible prophecy. Thanks, jag
so you joined the 'fire to thump your bible and be a douche. got it.
Originally Posted by Sharpsman
Try praying!

Maybe you'll have an awakening!!


In 78 years that has never happened...
Originally Posted by jaguartx
I used to be a real asswhole.


Used to be?
You can read?
Originally Posted by pal
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
...So you are a Pantheism?


I tolerate people from all religions. And believe each of us should be free to worship as he chooses. I would never assume that my own religious or spiritual beliefs should be imposed on others.



Pal,

A Pantheist basically believes we and the universe are one. We, the Universe, and all things in it at some level, are connected. The Pantheist definition of God is perhaps the most defendable, so I by no means intended the pantheist label as a pejorative.

We are made of the most common elements in the Universe, and when we die, those elements return to the Universe...
Originally Posted by curdog4570
Pantheism is the gateway to Christianity so it's easy for you to make an unwarranted assumption regarding Pal's post.

It's pretty much the "default" position for the human mind and a step away from Agnosticism in the direction of "believing".

As an Atheist, you have stepped in the opposite direction. "Unbelief" is not a natural state of mind so it must be reaffirmed constantly, which explains your presence in this discussion [ to my satisfaction, that is].

"No one comes to the Father except thru me" is Jesus introducing Himself as having always been the Agent who reconciles a man with his Creator. He was speaking as much to Pantheists as to Jews.


Yes, humans have a tendency to ascribe agency where none exists. Most conspiracy theories are born out of unimaginable incompetence, not some well devised plot by a super efficient organization.
Originally Posted by Bigbuck215
Originally Posted by Sauer200
Originally Posted by jaguartx
In the blink of an eye. When you become a christian, you enter into the kingdom of God, As previously reported you have become a saint in the Lords eyes. You have already faced the judgement if you are a christian. Your name is in the book of life. (Oh hell, did I just say that?)


Please prove this.


Well, how about you prove him wrong.


Safariman made a positive claim, so he has the burden of proof.
Originally Posted by efw
Originally Posted by GeorgiaBoy
I think the ol'debil gets blamed for a lot of things that aint completely his fault.


No doubt; man's inhumanity to man is the fault of our depravity. Satan can all too often sit back and watch us do his work for him.


I think the root cause is a world with scarce resources, and humans with unlimited wants and needs.

Some are willing to put their own wants and needs above the suffering of other, even if they must inflict that suffering themselves to satisfy their perceived needs.
Originally Posted by victoro
Originally Posted by Bigbuck215
Originally Posted by Sauer200
Originally Posted by jaguartx
In the blink of an eye. When you become a christian, you enter into the kingdom of God, As previously reported you have become a saint in the Lords eyes. You have already faced the judgement if you are a christian. Your name is in the book of life. (Oh hell, did I just say that?)


Please prove this.


Well, how about you prove him wrong.


I saw the same ghost in my house twice. Prove I didn't. I don't actually believe I saw that ghost but it seemed real enough when it happened. I would probably fail a polygraph test if I said I didn't see it. I was stone cold sober and on no drugs of any kind either time.


Victoro, saying you saw something that something that looked appeared to be a ghost is different than declaring you believe ghosts exist.

I cannot disprove your perception was what you claimed, but since it's personal and unverifiable, it also would not be considered reliable evidence for the existence of ghosts.

I see the magician pull my card out of the deck, but that does not prove he can read my mind.
Originally Posted by efw
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by TF49

Lots of room in atheism for twisted morality.


Even more room in religion.



Please back that up with quantifiable evidence of equal quality to that which would convince you that there is a God.


Listed are only events that solely occurred on command of church authorities or were committed in the name of Christianity. (List incomplete)

Ancient Pagans

As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]
Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
[DO19-25]
Mission

Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]
Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]
Battle of Belgrad 1456: 80,000 Turks slaughtered. [DO235]
15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Victims unknown. [DO30]
16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]
Crusades (1095-1291)

First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]
Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96 thousands. [WW23]
9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]
Until Jan 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]
after 6/3/98 Antiochia (then turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women & children) killed. [WW32-35]
Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents—save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]
Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]
Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (jewish, muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
(In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude")
The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79]
Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following summer in all of palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". One million victims of the first crusade alone. [WW41]
Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. 200,000 heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]
Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]
Rest of Crusades in less detail: until the fall of Akkon 1291 probably 20 million victims (in the Holy land and Arab/Turkish areas alone). [WW224]
Note: All figures according to contemporary (Christian) chroniclers.

Heretics

Already in 385 C.E. the first Christians, the Spanish Priscillianus and six followers, were beheaded for heresy in Trier/Germany [DO26]
Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics) was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between 372 C.E. and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC]
Albigensians: the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians. [DO29]
The Albigensians...viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and prohibition of birth control. [NC]
Begin of violence: on command of pope Innocent III (greatest single pre-nazi mass murderer) in 1209. Bezirs (today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Victims (including Catholics refusing to turn over their heretic neighbours and friends) 20,000-70,000. [WW179-181]
Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands slain. Other cities followed. [WW181]
subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated. [WW183]
After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search and destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the stake 1324. [WW183]
Estimated one million victims (cathar heresy alone), [WW183]
Other heresies: Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and many others. Most of these sects exterminated, (I believe some Waldensians live today, yet they had to endure 600 years of persecution) I estimate at least hundred thousand victims (including the Spanish inquisition but excluding victims in the New World).
Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada alone allegedly responsible for 10,220 burnings. [DO28]
John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was burned at the stake in 1415. [LI475-522]
University professor B.Hubmaier burned at the stake 1538 in Vienna. [DO59]
Giordano Bruno, Dominican monk, after having been incarcerated for seven years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo dei Fiori (Rome) on 2/17/1600.
Witches

from the beginning of Christianity to 1484 probably more than several thousand.
in the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged. [WV]
incomplete list of documented cases:
The Burning of Witches - A Chronicle of the Burning Times
Religious Wars

15th century: Crusades against Hussites, thousands slain. [DO30]
1538 pope Paul III declared Crusade against apostate England and all English as slaves of Church (fortunately had not power to go into action). [DO31]
1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands. Thousands were actually slain. [DO31]
1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]
17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader. After murdering him, the Catholic mob mutilated his body, "cutting off his head, his hands, and his genitals... and then dumped him into the river [...but] then, deciding that it was not worthy of being food for the fish, they hauled it out again [... and] dragged what was left ... to the gallows of Montfaulcon, 'to be meat and carrion for maggots and crows'." [SH191]
17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller, "and infants still sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers." [SH191]
17th century 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32]
Jews

Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by Christians. Number of Jews slain unknown.
In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450]
17. Council of Toledo 694: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]
The Bishop of Limoges (France) in 1010 had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]
First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered 1096, maybe 12.000 total. Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) [EJ]
Second Crusade: 1147. Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57]
Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked 1189/90. [DO40]
Fulda/Germany 1235: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]
1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]
1290 in Bohemian (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]
1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]
1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41]
1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]
1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]
1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear.
1492: In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492. [MM470-476]
1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain. [DO43]
(I feel sick ...) this goes on and on, century after century, right into the kilns of Auschwitz.

Native Peoples

Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.
Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, "ought to be good servants ... [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion." [SH200]
While Columbus described the Indians as "idolators" and "slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order," his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives as "beasts" because "they eat when they are hungry," and made love "openly whenever they feel like it." [SH204-205]
On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued:
I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him." [SH66]

Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony: "justifieinge the undertakeres of the intended Plantation in New England ... to carry the Gospell into those parts of the world, ... and to raise a Bulworke against the kingdome of the Ante-Christ." [SH235]
In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of "the marvelous goodness and providence of God" to the Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as "for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess." [SH109,238]
On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead. [SH204]
The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and spanish raids.
As one of the culprits wrote: "So many Indians died that they could not be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere. The stench was very great and pestiferous." [SH69]
The indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell." [SH70]
What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:
"The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties ... They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles... then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive." [SH72]
Or, on another occasion:
"The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus slain like brute beasts...Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to be torn to pieces by dogs." [SH83]
The "island's population of about eight million people at the time of Columbus's arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before the year 1496 was out." Eventually all the island's natives were exterminated, so the Spaniards were "forced" to import slaves from other caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus "the Caribbean's millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely a quarter of a century". [SH72-73] "In less than the normal lifetime of a single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated." [SH75]
"And then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of Mexico and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The exquisite city of Tenochtitln [Mexico city] was next." [SH75]
Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other spanish conquistadors likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name of Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida).
"When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead." [SH95]
Of course no different were the founders of what today is the US of Amerikkka.

Although none of the settlers would have survived winter without native help, they soon set out to expel and exterminate the Indians. Warfare among (north American) Indians was rather harmless, in comparison to European standards, and was meant to avenge insults rather than conquer land. In the words of some of the pilgrim fathers: "Their Warres are farre less bloudy...", so that there usually was "no great slawter of nether side". Indeed, "they might fight seven yeares and not kill seven men." What is more, the Indians usually spared women and children. [SH111]
In the spring of 1612 some English colonists found life among the (generally friendly and generous) natives attractive enough to leave Jamestown - "being idell ... did runne away unto the Indyans," - to live among them (that probably solved a sex problem).
"Governor Thomas Dale had them hunted down and executed: 'Some he apointed (sic) to be hanged Some burned Some to be broken upon wheles, others to be staked and some shott to deathe'." [SH105] Of course these elegant measures were restricted for fellow englishmen: "This was the treatment for those who wished to act like Indians. For those who had no choice in the matter, because they were the native people of Virginia" methods were different: "when an Indian was accused by an Englishman of stealing a cup and failing to return it, the English response was to attack the natives in force, burning the entire community" down. [SH105]
On the territory that is now Massachusetts the founding fathers of the colonies were committing genocide, in what has become known as the "Peqout War". The killers were New England Puritan Christians, refugees from persecution in their own home country England.
When however, a dead colonist was found, apparently killed by Narragansett Indians, the Puritan colonists wanted revenge. Despite the Indian chief's pledge they attacked.
Somehow they seem to have lost the idea of what they were after, because when they were greeted by Pequot Indians (long-time foes of the Narragansetts) the troops nevertheless made war on the Pequots and burned their villages.
The puritan commander-in-charge John Mason after one massacre wrote: "And indeed such a dreadful Terror did the Almighty let fall upon their Spirits, that they would fly from us and run into the very Flames, where many of them perished ... God was above them, who laughed his Enemies and the Enemies of his People to Scorn, making them as a fiery Oven ... Thus did the Lord judge among the Heathen, filling the Place with dead Bodies": men, women, children. [SH113-114]
So "the Lord was pleased to smite our Enemies in the hinder Parts, and to give us their land for an inheritance". [SH111].
Because of his readers' assumed knowledge of Deuteronomy, there was no need for Mason to quote the words that immediately follow:
"Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. But thou shalt utterly destroy them..." (Deut 20)
Mason's comrade Underhill recalled how "great and doleful was the bloody sight to the view of the young soldiers" yet reassured his readers that "sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents". [SH114]
Other Indians were killed in successful plots of poisoning. The colonists even had dogs especially trained to kill Indians and to devour children from their mothers breasts, in the colonists' own words: "blood Hounds to draw after them, and Mastives to seaze them." (This was inspired by spanish methods of the time)
In this way they continued until the extermination of the Pequots was near. [SH107-119]
The surviving handful of Indians "were parceled out to live in servitude. John Endicott and his pastor wrote to the governor asking for 'a share' of the captives, specifically 'a young woman or girle and a boy if you thinke good'." [SH115]
Other tribes were to follow the same path.
Comment the Christian exterminators: "God's Will, which will at last give us cause to say: How Great is His Goodness! and How Great is his Beauty!"
"Thus doth the Lord Jesus make them to bow before him, and to lick the Dust!" [TA]
Like today, lying was OK to Christians then. "Peace treaties were signed with every intention to violate them: when the Indians 'grow secure uppon (sic) the treatie', advised the Council of State in Virginia, 'we shall have the better Advantage both to surprise them, & cutt downe theire Corne'." [SH106]
In 1624 sixty heavily armed Englishmen cut down 800 defenseless Indian men, women and children. [SH107]
In a single massacre in "King Philip's War" of 1675 and 1676 some "600 Indians were destroyed. A delighted Cotton Mather, revered pastor of the Second Church in Boston, later referred to the slaughter as a 'barbeque'." [SH115]
To summarize: Before the arrival of the English, the western Abenaki people in New Hampshire and Vermont had numbered 12,000. Less than half a century later about 250 remained alive - a destruction rate of 98%. The Pocumtuck people had numbered more than 18,000, fifty years later they were down to 920 - 95% destroyed. The Quiripi-Unquachog people had numbered about 30,000, fifty years later they were down to 1500 - 95% destroyed. The Massachusetts people had numbered at least 44,000, fifty years later barely 6000 were alive - 81% destroyed. [SH118] These are only a few examples of the multitude of tribes living before Christian colonists set their foot on the New World. All this was before the smallpox epidemics of 1677 and 1678 had occurred. And the carnage was not over then.
All the above was only the beginning of the European colonization, it was before the frontier age actually had begun.
A total of maybe more than 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, as an average two thirds by smallpox and other epidemics, that leaves some 50 million killed directly by violence, bad treatment and slavery.
In many countries, such as Brazil, and Guatemala, this continues even today.
More Glorious events in US history

Reverend Solomon Stoddard, one of New England's most esteemed religious leaders, in "1703 formally proposed to the Massachusetts Governor that the colonists be given the financial wherewithal to purchase and train large packs of dogs 'to hunt Indians as they do bears'." [SH241]
Massacre of Sand Creek, Colorado 11/29/1864. Colonel John Chivington, a former Methodist minister and still elder in the church ("I long to be wading in gore") had a Cheyenne village of about 600, mostly women and children, gunned down despite the chiefs' waving with a white flag: 400-500 killed.
From an eye-witness account: "There were some thirty or forty squaws collected in a hole for protection; they sent out a little girl about six years old with a white flag on a stick; she had not proceeded but a few steps when she was shot and killed. All the squaws in that hole were afterwards killed ..." [SH131]
More gory details.
By the 1860s, "in Hawai'i the Reverend Rufus Anderson surveyed the carnage that by then had reduced those islands' native population by 90 percent or more, and he declined to see it as tragedy; the expected total die-off of the Hawaiian population was only natural, this missionary said, somewhat equivalent to 'the amputation of diseased members of the body'." [SH244]
20th Century Church Atrocities

Catholic extermination camps
Surpisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveli, a practising Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!

In these camps - the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar - orthodox-Christian serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns, alive (the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims gassed first). But most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot to death, the number of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000, in a rather tiny country. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The atrocities were appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi "Sicherheitsdient der SS", watching, to complain about them to Hitler (who did not listen). The pope knew about these events and did nothing to prevent them. [MV]
Catholic terror in Vietnam
In 1954 Vietnamese freedom fighters - the Viet Minh - had finally defeated the French colonial government in North Vietnam, which by then had been supported by U.S. funds amounting to more than $2 billion. Although the victorious assured religious freedom to all (most non-buddhist Vietnamese were Catholics), due to huge anticommunist propaganda campaigns many Catholics fled to the South. With the help of Catholic lobbies in Washington and Cardinal Spellman, the Vatican's spokesman in U.S. politics, who later on would call the U.S. forces in Vietnam "Soldiers of Christ", a scheme was concocted to prevent democratic elections which could have brought the communist Viet Minh to power in the South as well, and the fanatic Catholic Ngo Dinh Diem was made president of South Vietnam. [MW16ff]

Diem saw to it that U.S. aid, food, technical and general assistance was given to Catholics alone, Buddhist individuals and villages were ignored or had to pay for the food aids which were given to Catholics for free. The only religious denomination to be supported was Roman Catholicism.

The Vietnamese McCarthyism turned even more vicious than its American counterpart. By 1956 Diem promulgated a presidential order which read:
"Individuals considered dangerous to the national defense and common security may be confined by executive order, to a concentration camp."
Supposedly to fight communism, thousands of buddhist protesters and monks were imprisoned in "detention camps." Out of protest dozens of buddhist teachers - male and female - and monks poured gasoline over themselves and burned themselves. (Note that Buddhists burned themselves: in comparison Christians tend to burn others). Meanwhile some of the prison camps, which in the meantime were filled with Protestant and even Catholic protesters as well, had turned into no-nonsense death camps. It is estimated that during this period of terror (1955-1960) at least 24,000 were wounded - mostly in street riots - 80,000 people were executed, 275,000 had been detained or tortured, and about 500,000 were sent to concentration or detention camps. [MW76-89].

To support this kind of government in the next decade thousands of American GI's lost their life....

Rwanda Massacres
In 1994 in the small african country of Rwanda in just a few months several hundred thousand civilians were butchered, apparently a conflict of the Hutu and Tutsi ethnic groups.
For quite some time I heard only rumours about Catholic clergy actively involved in the 1994 Rwanda massacres. Odd denials of involvement were printed in Catholic church journals, before even anybody had openly accused members of the church.

Then, 10/10/96, in the newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany - a station not at all critical to Christianity - the following was stated:

"Anglican as well as Catholic priests and nuns are suspect of having actively participated in murders. Especially the conduct of a certain Catholic priest has been occupying the public mind in Rwanda's capital Kigali for months. He was minister of the church of the Holy Family and allegedly murdered Tutsis in the most brutal manner. He is reported to have accompanied marauding Hutu militia with a gun in his cowl. In fact there has been a bloody slaughter of Tutsis seeking shelter in his parish. Even two years after the massacres many Catholics refuse to set foot on the threshold of their church, because to them the participation of a certain part of the clergy in the slaughter is well established. There is almost no church in Rwanda that has not seen refugees - women, children, old - being brutally butchered facing the crucifix.

According to eyewitnesses clergymen gave away hiding Tutsis and turned them over to the machetes of the Hutu militia.

In connection with these events again and again two Benedictine nuns are mentioned, both of whom have fled into a Belgian monastery in the meantime to avoid prosecution. According to survivors one of them called the Hutu killers and led them to several thousand people who had sought shelter in her monastery. By force the doomed were driven out of the churchyard and were murdered in the presence of the nun right in front of the gate. The other one is also reported to have directly cooperated with the murderers of the Hutu militia. In her case again witnesses report that she watched the slaughtering of people in cold blood and without showing response. She is even accused of having procured some petrol used by the killers to set on fire and burn their victims alive..."


And that's just a partial list of atrocities committed i the name of Christianity.



Now,

Imagine the list for Islam
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Do atheists believe in ghosts? Has an atheist ever seen a ghost?


Speaking for myself,

I do not believe in ghosts nor any other supernatural being.

With that said, yes, there are atheist that believe in ghosts, or other supernatural creatures.

A person can be correct in one belief, and completely wrong on another.
Originally Posted by oldtrapper
Seriously, I find the incredible complexity and vastness of the universe, in the face of man's utter inability to create anything, from nothing, very compelling. just saying.


This is called the argument from personal incredulity, argument from lack of imagination, or argumentum ad ignorantiam.

Just because you can't imagine something doesn't mean it is false, it just mean you lack imagination.
Originally Posted by jaguartx
Originally Posted by Sharpsman
Try praying!

Maybe you'll have an awakening!!


I did and I did.

I agree its clear that we can not physically prove He exists (because He doesn't want those with no faith in His word, Jesus, to get on board).

It seems the open-minded who are willing to objectively examine the many miraculous fullfilments of Bible prophecy can reach a point of empiracle proof to the point of beyond the shadow of doubt.

The closeminded are not willing to examine the possibilities any more than nwa is able to objectively determine that letting a bunch of criminal aliens be released back into our population is not beneficial to our country or that progressives are working to destroy the 2A.
The "convinced" are not mentally capable of escaping their lack of knowledge because its simpler to avoid mental scrutiny. They are lost.

The purpose of the thread was to enlighten those who are realizing their life is missing something, and to reaquaint belivers with truths of history that are aligned with Bible prophecy. Thanks, jag


And when did Nebuchadnezzar destroy Tyre?

Oh, that's right....that prophecy failed...
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by pal
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
...So you are a Pantheism?


I tolerate people from all religions. And believe each of us should be free to worship as he chooses. I would never assume that my own religious or spiritual beliefs should be imposed on others.



Pal,

A Pantheist basically believes we and the universe are one. We, the Universe, and all things in it at some level, are connected. The Pantheist definition of God is perhaps the most defendable, so I by no means intended the pantheist label as a pejorative.

We are made of the most common elements in the Universe, and when we die, those elements return to the Universe...


as--I did not take that negatively. Just tried to explain my own beliefs, which do not fall specifically within, and are not bound by any organized religious dogma. smile
Occupants of "The Realm of the Spirit" are not well recieved by many of the members here. grin
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by efw
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by TF49

Lots of room in atheism for twisted morality.


Even more room in religion.



Please back that up with quantifiable evidence of equal quality to that which would convince you that there is a God.


Listed are only events that solely occurred on command of church authorities or were committed in the name of Christianity. (List incomplete)

Ancient Pagans

As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]
Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
[DO19-25]
Mission

Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]
Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]
Battle of Belgrad 1456: 80,000 Turks slaughtered. [DO235]
15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Victims unknown. [DO30]
16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]
Crusades (1095-1291)

First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]
Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96 thousands. [WW23]
9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]
Until Jan 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]
after 6/3/98 Antiochia (then turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women & children) killed. [WW32-35]
Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents—save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]
Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]
Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (jewish, muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
(In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude")
The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79]
Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following summer in all of palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". One million victims of the first crusade alone. [WW41]
Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. 200,000 heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]
Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]
Rest of Crusades in less detail: until the fall of Akkon 1291 probably 20 million victims (in the Holy land and Arab/Turkish areas alone). [WW224]
Note: All figures according to contemporary (Christian) chroniclers.

Heretics

Already in 385 C.E. the first Christians, the Spanish Priscillianus and six followers, were beheaded for heresy in Trier/Germany [DO26]
Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics) was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between 372 C.E. and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC]
Albigensians: the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians. [DO29]
The Albigensians...viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and prohibition of birth control. [NC]
Begin of violence: on command of pope Innocent III (greatest single pre-nazi mass murderer) in 1209. Bezirs (today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Victims (including Catholics refusing to turn over their heretic neighbours and friends) 20,000-70,000. [WW179-181]
Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands slain. Other cities followed. [WW181]
subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated. [WW183]
After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search and destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the stake 1324. [WW183]
Estimated one million victims (cathar heresy alone), [WW183]
Other heresies: Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and many others. Most of these sects exterminated, (I believe some Waldensians live today, yet they had to endure 600 years of persecution) I estimate at least hundred thousand victims (including the Spanish inquisition but excluding victims in the New World).
Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada alone allegedly responsible for 10,220 burnings. [DO28]
John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was burned at the stake in 1415. [LI475-522]
University professor B.Hubmaier burned at the stake 1538 in Vienna. [DO59]
Giordano Bruno, Dominican monk, after having been incarcerated for seven years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo dei Fiori (Rome) on 2/17/1600.
Witches

from the beginning of Christianity to 1484 probably more than several thousand.
in the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged. [WV]
incomplete list of documented cases:
The Burning of Witches - A Chronicle of the Burning Times
Religious Wars

15th century: Crusades against Hussites, thousands slain. [DO30]
1538 pope Paul III declared Crusade against apostate England and all English as slaves of Church (fortunately had not power to go into action). [DO31]
1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands. Thousands were actually slain. [DO31]
1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]
17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader. After murdering him, the Catholic mob mutilated his body, "cutting off his head, his hands, and his genitals... and then dumped him into the river [...but] then, deciding that it was not worthy of being food for the fish, they hauled it out again [... and] dragged what was left ... to the gallows of Montfaulcon, 'to be meat and carrion for maggots and crows'." [SH191]
17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller, "and infants still sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers." [SH191]
17th century 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32]
Jews

Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by Christians. Number of Jews slain unknown.
In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450]
17. Council of Toledo 694: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]
The Bishop of Limoges (France) in 1010 had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]
First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered 1096, maybe 12.000 total. Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) [EJ]
Second Crusade: 1147. Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57]
Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked 1189/90. [DO40]
Fulda/Germany 1235: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]
1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]
1290 in Bohemian (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]
1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]
1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41]
1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]
1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]
1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear.
1492: In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492. [MM470-476]
1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain. [DO43]
(I feel sick ...) this goes on and on, century after century, right into the kilns of Auschwitz.

Native Peoples

Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.
Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, "ought to be good servants ... [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion." [SH200]
While Columbus described the Indians as "idolators" and "slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order," his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives as "beasts" because "they eat when they are hungry," and made love "openly whenever they feel like it." [SH204-205]
On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued:
I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him." [SH66]

Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony: "justifieinge the undertakeres of the intended Plantation in New England ... to carry the Gospell into those parts of the world, ... and to raise a Bulworke against the kingdome of the Ante-Christ." [SH235]
In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of "the marvelous goodness and providence of God" to the Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as "for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess." [SH109,238]
On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead. [SH204]
The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and spanish raids.
As one of the culprits wrote: "So many Indians died that they could not be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere. The stench was very great and pestiferous." [SH69]
The indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell." [SH70]
What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:
"The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties ... They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles... then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive." [SH72]
Or, on another occasion:
"The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus slain like brute beasts...Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to be torn to pieces by dogs." [SH83]
The "island's population of about eight million people at the time of Columbus's arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before the year 1496 was out." Eventually all the island's natives were exterminated, so the Spaniards were "forced" to import slaves from other caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus "the Caribbean's millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely a quarter of a century". [SH72-73] "In less than the normal lifetime of a single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated." [SH75]
"And then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of Mexico and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The exquisite city of Tenochtitln [Mexico city] was next." [SH75]
Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other spanish conquistadors likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name of Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida).
"When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead." [SH95]
Of course no different were the founders of what today is the US of Amerikkka.

Although none of the settlers would have survived winter without native help, they soon set out to expel and exterminate the Indians. Warfare among (north American) Indians was rather harmless, in comparison to European standards, and was meant to avenge insults rather than conquer land. In the words of some of the pilgrim fathers: "Their Warres are farre less bloudy...", so that there usually was "no great slawter of nether side". Indeed, "they might fight seven yeares and not kill seven men." What is more, the Indians usually spared women and children. [SH111]
In the spring of 1612 some English colonists found life among the (generally friendly and generous) natives attractive enough to leave Jamestown - "being idell ... did runne away unto the Indyans," - to live among them (that probably solved a sex problem).
"Governor Thomas Dale had them hunted down and executed: 'Some he apointed (sic) to be hanged Some burned Some to be broken upon wheles, others to be staked and some shott to deathe'." [SH105] Of course these elegant measures were restricted for fellow englishmen: "This was the treatment for those who wished to act like Indians. For those who had no choice in the matter, because they were the native people of Virginia" methods were different: "when an Indian was accused by an Englishman of stealing a cup and failing to return it, the English response was to attack the natives in force, burning the entire community" down. [SH105]
On the territory that is now Massachusetts the founding fathers of the colonies were committing genocide, in what has become known as the "Peqout War". The killers were New England Puritan Christians, refugees from persecution in their own home country England.
When however, a dead colonist was found, apparently killed by Narragansett Indians, the Puritan colonists wanted revenge. Despite the Indian chief's pledge they attacked.
Somehow they seem to have lost the idea of what they were after, because when they were greeted by Pequot Indians (long-time foes of the Narragansetts) the troops nevertheless made war on the Pequots and burned their villages.
The puritan commander-in-charge John Mason after one massacre wrote: "And indeed such a dreadful Terror did the Almighty let fall upon their Spirits, that they would fly from us and run into the very Flames, where many of them perished ... God was above them, who laughed his Enemies and the Enemies of his People to Scorn, making them as a fiery Oven ... Thus did the Lord judge among the Heathen, filling the Place with dead Bodies": men, women, children. [SH113-114]
So "the Lord was pleased to smite our Enemies in the hinder Parts, and to give us their land for an inheritance". [SH111].
Because of his readers' assumed knowledge of Deuteronomy, there was no need for Mason to quote the words that immediately follow:
"Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. But thou shalt utterly destroy them..." (Deut 20)
Mason's comrade Underhill recalled how "great and doleful was the bloody sight to the view of the young soldiers" yet reassured his readers that "sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents". [SH114]
Other Indians were killed in successful plots of poisoning. The colonists even had dogs especially trained to kill Indians and to devour children from their mothers breasts, in the colonists' own words: "blood Hounds to draw after them, and Mastives to seaze them." (This was inspired by spanish methods of the time)
In this way they continued until the extermination of the Pequots was near. [SH107-119]
The surviving handful of Indians "were parceled out to live in servitude. John Endicott and his pastor wrote to the governor asking for 'a share' of the captives, specifically 'a young woman or girle and a boy if you thinke good'." [SH115]
Other tribes were to follow the same path.
Comment the Christian exterminators: "God's Will, which will at last give us cause to say: How Great is His Goodness! and How Great is his Beauty!"
"Thus doth the Lord Jesus make them to bow before him, and to lick the Dust!" [TA]
Like today, lying was OK to Christians then. "Peace treaties were signed with every intention to violate them: when the Indians 'grow secure uppon (sic) the treatie', advised the Council of State in Virginia, 'we shall have the better Advantage both to surprise them, & cutt downe theire Corne'." [SH106]
In 1624 sixty heavily armed Englishmen cut down 800 defenseless Indian men, women and children. [SH107]
In a single massacre in "King Philip's War" of 1675 and 1676 some "600 Indians were destroyed. A delighted Cotton Mather, revered pastor of the Second Church in Boston, later referred to the slaughter as a 'barbeque'." [SH115]
To summarize: Before the arrival of the English, the western Abenaki people in New Hampshire and Vermont had numbered 12,000. Less than half a century later about 250 remained alive - a destruction rate of 98%. The Pocumtuck people had numbered more than 18,000, fifty years later they were down to 920 - 95% destroyed. The Quiripi-Unquachog people had numbered about 30,000, fifty years later they were down to 1500 - 95% destroyed. The Massachusetts people had numbered at least 44,000, fifty years later barely 6000 were alive - 81% destroyed. [SH118] These are only a few examples of the multitude of tribes living before Christian colonists set their foot on the New World. All this was before the smallpox epidemics of 1677 and 1678 had occurred. And the carnage was not over then.
All the above was only the beginning of the European colonization, it was before the frontier age actually had begun.
A total of maybe more than 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, as an average two thirds by smallpox and other epidemics, that leaves some 50 million killed directly by violence, bad treatment and slavery.
In many countries, such as Brazil, and Guatemala, this continues even today.
More Glorious events in US history

Reverend Solomon Stoddard, one of New England's most esteemed religious leaders, in "1703 formally proposed to the Massachusetts Governor that the colonists be given the financial wherewithal to purchase and train large packs of dogs 'to hunt Indians as they do bears'." [SH241]
Massacre of Sand Creek, Colorado 11/29/1864. Colonel John Chivington, a former Methodist minister and still elder in the church ("I long to be wading in gore") had a Cheyenne village of about 600, mostly women and children, gunned down despite the chiefs' waving with a white flag: 400-500 killed.
From an eye-witness account: "There were some thirty or forty squaws collected in a hole for protection; they sent out a little girl about six years old with a white flag on a stick; she had not proceeded but a few steps when she was shot and killed. All the squaws in that hole were afterwards killed ..." [SH131]
More gory details.
By the 1860s, "in Hawai'i the Reverend Rufus Anderson surveyed the carnage that by then had reduced those islands' native population by 90 percent or more, and he declined to see it as tragedy; the expected total die-off of the Hawaiian population was only natural, this missionary said, somewhat equivalent to 'the amputation of diseased members of the body'." [SH244]
20th Century Church Atrocities

Catholic extermination camps
Surpisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveli, a practising Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!

In these camps - the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar - orthodox-Christian serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns, alive (the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims gassed first). But most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot to death, the number of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000, in a rather tiny country. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The atrocities were appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi "Sicherheitsdient der SS", watching, to complain about them to Hitler (who did not listen). The pope knew about these events and did nothing to prevent them. [MV]
Catholic terror in Vietnam
In 1954 Vietnamese freedom fighters - the Viet Minh - had finally defeated the French colonial government in North Vietnam, which by then had been supported by U.S. funds amounting to more than $2 billion. Although the victorious assured religious freedom to all (most non-buddhist Vietnamese were Catholics), due to huge anticommunist propaganda campaigns many Catholics fled to the South. With the help of Catholic lobbies in Washington and Cardinal Spellman, the Vatican's spokesman in U.S. politics, who later on would call the U.S. forces in Vietnam "Soldiers of Christ", a scheme was concocted to prevent democratic elections which could have brought the communist Viet Minh to power in the South as well, and the fanatic Catholic Ngo Dinh Diem was made president of South Vietnam. [MW16ff]

Diem saw to it that U.S. aid, food, technical and general assistance was given to Catholics alone, Buddhist individuals and villages were ignored or had to pay for the food aids which were given to Catholics for free. The only religious denomination to be supported was Roman Catholicism.

The Vietnamese McCarthyism turned even more vicious than its American counterpart. By 1956 Diem promulgated a presidential order which read:
"Individuals considered dangerous to the national defense and common security may be confined by executive order, to a concentration camp."
Supposedly to fight communism, thousands of buddhist protesters and monks were imprisoned in "detention camps." Out of protest dozens of buddhist teachers - male and female - and monks poured gasoline over themselves and burned themselves. (Note that Buddhists burned themselves: in comparison Christians tend to burn others). Meanwhile some of the prison camps, which in the meantime were filled with Protestant and even Catholic protesters as well, had turned into no-nonsense death camps. It is estimated that during this period of terror (1955-1960) at least 24,000 were wounded - mostly in street riots - 80,000 people were executed, 275,000 had been detained or tortured, and about 500,000 were sent to concentration or detention camps. [MW76-89].

To support this kind of government in the next decade thousands of American GI's lost their life....

Rwanda Massacres
In 1994 in the small african country of Rwanda in just a few months several hundred thousand civilians were butchered, apparently a conflict of the Hutu and Tutsi ethnic groups.
For quite some time I heard only rumours about Catholic clergy actively involved in the 1994 Rwanda massacres. Odd denials of involvement were printed in Catholic church journals, before even anybody had openly accused members of the church.

Then, 10/10/96, in the newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany - a station not at all critical to Christianity - the following was stated:

"Anglican as well as Catholic priests and nuns are suspect of having actively participated in murders. Especially the conduct of a certain Catholic priest has been occupying the public mind in Rwanda's capital Kigali for months. He was minister of the church of the Holy Family and allegedly murdered Tutsis in the most brutal manner. He is reported to have accompanied marauding Hutu militia with a gun in his cowl. In fact there has been a bloody slaughter of Tutsis seeking shelter in his parish. Even two years after the massacres many Catholics refuse to set foot on the threshold of their church, because to them the participation of a certain part of the clergy in the slaughter is well established. There is almost no church in Rwanda that has not seen refugees - women, children, old - being brutally butchered facing the crucifix.

According to eyewitnesses clergymen gave away hiding Tutsis and turned them over to the machetes of the Hutu militia.

In connection with these events again and again two Benedictine nuns are mentioned, both of whom have fled into a Belgian monastery in the meantime to avoid prosecution. According to survivors one of them called the Hutu killers and led them to several thousand people who had sought shelter in her monastery. By force the doomed were driven out of the churchyard and were murdered in the presence of the nun right in front of the gate. The other one is also reported to have directly cooperated with the murderers of the Hutu militia. In her case again witnesses report that she watched the slaughtering of people in cold blood and without showing response. She is even accused of having procured some petrol used by the killers to set on fire and burn their victims alive..."


And that's just a partial list of atrocities committed i the name of Christianity.



Now,

Imagine the list for Islam



Impressive list, if not so horrifying.

A list of documented historical atrocities committed in the name of Atheism would be an interesting addition to the thread too.

Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by pal
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
...So you are a Pantheism?


I tolerate people from all religions. And believe each of us should be free to worship as he chooses. I would never assume that my own religious or spiritual beliefs should be imposed on others.



Pal,

A Pantheist basically believes we and the universe are one. We, the Universe, and all things in it at some level, are connected. The Pantheist definition of God is perhaps the most defendable, so I by no means intended the pantheist label as a pejorative.

We are made of the most common elements in the Universe, and when we die, those elements return to the Universe...


Does this mean your children are no more important, in the great scheme of things, than a super nova?
antelope_sniper,

Quote
And when did Nebuchadnezzar destroy Tyre?

Oh, that's right....that prophecy failed...


Tyre was destroyed and the debris from the city was thrown in the sea. According to the prophecy. It has never been rebuilt. According to the prophecy.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by oldtrapper
Seriously, I find the incredible complexity and vastness of the universe, in the face of man's utter inability to create anything, from nothing, very compelling. just saying.


This is called the argument from personal incredulity, argument from lack of imagination, or argumentum ad ignorantiam.

Just because you can't imagine something doesn't mean it is false, it just mean you lack imagination.


And for what is imagination conclusive? For nothing.

You've got nothing. Only a vast chasm of nothing. You're position is always the argument from nothing. It seems rather, um, er void. One cannot even assert it contains any truth, only nothing. You have no compelling argument for the non existence of God. There isn't one. You only bring a giant sucking vacuum to the table.

I'll, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, hang my hat on hope. And while arguments from design and prime movers are not deductively conclusive, neither are they irrational. What you need to be called on with greater frequency, is that you have zero conclusive argument that proves the converse. inconclusiveness is not evidence for the converse. I will admit that you drive it for a lot of mileage, though.
How can we find out if God exists?
-------------

Go to Iraq and order a BLT while wearing an "I swallow" wife beater T.

If your still alive when the sandwich comes, there is a God.
I know a guy who took his wife's Yorkies to the pound while she was out of town.

He survived and counts it as proof of a merciful god.
Supermodel hottie gal shows up, signs over 1000+ acres of prime hunting ground, blows you, says there's 1 million in legal cash in the back of the super cool new truck.............and leaves.
Originally Posted by curdog4570
Occupants of "The Realm of the Spirit" are not well recieved by many of the members here. grin


To some religious fanatics it is not enough that you simply believe in God and try to lead a good life. To other religious fanatics, if you believe in God, you must be killed!

My beliefs are my own, learned over my 72 years of life experience and my own study of theology, not from a single book or someone else's insistence that I accept what they believe.

Because of every individual's uniqueness, I believe we each have at least a slightly different view of who is God, even within religions and even within our own families.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by jaguartx
Originally Posted by Sharpsman
Try praying!

Maybe you'll have an awakening!!


I did and I did.

I agree its clear that we can not physically prove He exists (because He doesn't want those with no faith in His word, Jesus, to get on board).

It seems the open-minded who are willing to objectively examine the many miraculous fullfilments of Bible prophecy can reach a point of empiracle proof to the point of beyond the shadow of doubt.

The closeminded are not willing to examine the possibilities any more than nwa is able to objectively determine that letting a bunch of criminal aliens be released back into our population is not beneficial to our country or that progressives are working to destroy the 2A.
The "convinced" are not mentally capable of escaping their lack of knowledge because its simpler to avoid mental scrutiny. They are lost.

The purpose of the thread was to enlighten those who are realizing their life is missing something, and to reaquaint belivers with truths of history that are aligned with Bible prophecy. Thanks, jag


And when did Nebuchadnezzar destroy Tyre?

Oh, that's right....that prophecy failed...






AS continues his assault on Jesus and His Word. Nothing new here and folks I can tell you that Jesus can deal with it.

Anyway, as usual, AS is flat out wrong in his comment about the prophecy against Tyre not being fulfilled. If one is interested, it is good entertainment to read of the intellectual contortions the atheists go through to malign this prophecy. One of these jokers stated that since Tyre exists today, the prophecy could not have been true. This zealous dimwit proposes that Ezekiel prophesied against the “geography” and does not see that the prophecy is clearly against the city-state and evil leaders of Tyre. Tyre was ruined because of the evil it perpetrated.


AS is a blind guide who only leads those that are unknowing and ill informed. He sits in the dark and does not know it.

So, did Ezekiel prophesy that Tyre the nation state and rulers would be destroyed? Yes and it was so.

Did he prophesy that many nations would come against Tyre? Yes and it was so.

Did he prophesy that Nebuchanezzar would come and ravage the mainlands? Yes and it was so.

Did he prophesy that it would become “bare rock” and a place to spread fishnets? Yes and it was so.


Now did the place eventually become inhabited again? Of course, Ezekiel did not prophesy against the real estate, he prophesied against the evil city and it was indeed forever ruined and never to return. Great Tyre is no more, never to be rebuilt. Prophecy fulfilled

It is also very interesting to look at Ezekiel 28. This is a prophecy against the King of Tyre. Ezekiel says: “In the pride of your heart you say, “I am a god, I sit on the throne of a god in the heart of the seas.” But you are a man and not a god, though you think you are as wise as a god.”





Btw,

I note that AS stated : “And when did Nebuchadnezzar destroy Tyre? Oh, that’s right…. That prophecy failed…”



He states this as if it is true and the uniformed may take it that he is correct in this. This is another contortion. Ezekiel says that Neb will ravage the mainlands which were the settlements and city on the coast, not on the island. He did so and history tells us he gained the surrender of the princes and leaders and did in fact plunder. The great “tear down” was under Alexander where he razed the place.


AS and others practice what it called “eisegesis.” He reads something and pours HIS OWN meaning into and then tries to knock it down with some contorted argument. Exactly what he is doing here.







Here is what Ezekiel says:



In the eleventh month of the twelftha year, on the first day of the month, the word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, because Tyre has said of Jerusalem, ‘Aha! The gate to the nations is broken, and its doors have swung open to me; now that she lies in ruins I will prosper,’ therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves. They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock. Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord. She will become plunder for the nations, and her settlements on the mainland will be ravaged by the sword. Then they will know that I am the Lord.



Did it happen? Yes



I can't see where you left him any wiggle room, but he can manufacture his own.

He would never admit it, but I suspect his assertion is not based on any research of his own, but from some Atheist "talking points" publication. He has gone unchallenged for so long that he supposes people just take his B S as fact where history is concerned.
Yep.

btw, the destruction of Tyre was also prophesied in Isaiah 23, Amos 1:9-10 and Zechariah 9:3-4.


It has been interesting to me that some folks are fascinated by bible prophesy and others don't give it much mind.

The reformation of the state of Israel in 1948 after the great scattering has been a wonder to me. Many see that as the greatest prophecy ever fulfilled. What almost 2000 years after the scattering? It would be entertaining to see AS explain that away.
Originally Posted by TF49
Yep.

btw, the destruction of Tyre was also prophesied in Isaiah 23, Amos 1:9-10 and Zechariah 9:3-4.


It has been interesting to me that some folks are fascinated by bible prophesy and others don't give it much mind.

The reformation of the state of Israel in 1948 after the great scattering has been a wonder to me. Many see that as the greatest prophecy ever fulfilled. What almost 2000 years after the scattering? It would be entertaining to see AS explain that away.


wow, just wow. another worm has just emerged from the top of the can of worms that this thread has opened. and some speak of a red heifer, and others of a white buffalo calf. where will all these insightful clues finally take us?
Originally Posted by Gus

wow, just wow. another worm has just emerged from the top of the can of worms that this thread has opened. and some speak of a red heifer, and others of a white buffalo calf. where will all these insightful clues finally take us?

Right back to the beginning of the circle...
Originally Posted by isaac
How can we find out if God exists?
-------------

Go to Iraq and order a BLT while wearing an "I swallow" wife beater T.

If your still alive when the sandwich comes, there is a God.


Why dont you just say "jump off a tall building....".
Originally Posted by jaguartx
Originally Posted by isaac
How can we find out if God exists?
-------------

Go to Iraq and order a BLT while wearing an "I swallow" wife beater T.

If your still alive when the sandwich comes, there is a God.


Why dont you just say "jump off a tall building....".


yep. or just let someone, a worthy candidate, be thrown off a tall building, and see if they reach the ground alive. i'll bet they will, nearly everytime.
Originally Posted by TF49
Yep.

btw, the destruction of Tyre was also prophesied in Isaiah 23, Amos 1:9-10 and Zechariah 9:3-4.


It has been interesting to me that some folks are fascinated by bible prophesy and others don't give it much mind.

The reformation of the state of Israel in 1948 after the great scattering has been a wonder to me. Many see that as the greatest prophecy ever fulfilled. What almost 2000 years after the scattering? It would be entertaining to see AS explain that away.


Easy, dummy. Lucky guess. Thats the only that makes sense to the close minded. wink
Again, Isaiah predicted 200 yrs before the fact that a king named Cyrus would release the Jewish to return to the land of their ancestors and rebuild their Holy Temple. Isaiah 44:28-45:4.

200 years later King Cyrus of Persia granted favor to the Jewish captives left over from Bablyon to do so along with a requisition for materials to rebuild the city. Ezra 1:1-11.

What are the odds? Astronomical!
Jarvis is real. Ask Tony Stark.
Originally Posted by oldtrapper
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by oldtrapper
Seriously, I find the incredible complexity and vastness of the universe, in the face of man's utter inability to create anything, from nothing, very compelling. just saying.


This is called the argument from personal incredulity, argument from lack of imagination, or argumentum ad ignorantiam.

Just because you can't imagine something doesn't mean it is false, it just mean you lack imagination.


And for what is imagination conclusive? For nothing.

You've got nothing. Only a vast chasm of nothing. You're position is always the argument from nothing. It seems rather, um, er void. One cannot even assert it contains any truth, only nothing. You have no compelling argument for the non existence of God. There isn't one. You only bring a giant sucking vacuum to the table.

I'll, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, hang my hat on hope. And while arguments from design and prime movers are not deductively conclusive, neither are they irrational. What you need to be called on with greater frequency, is that you have zero conclusive argument that proves the converse. inconclusiveness is not evidence for the converse. I will admit that you drive it for a lot of mileage, though.


You are right. They have nothing.
What are the odds of any of the multitude of any of the biblical prophecies occurring? Would you say 1 of 100,000?
Its easy to find 20 hugely improbable prophecies.
Some predicted the crucifixion of Jesus a thousand years before his birth. Even a thousand years before crucifixion was invented.
So what are the cumulative odds of so many improbable events occuring in one book.

These prophecies are proven to have occurred by history and archeology.
Just 20x10,000x10,000x10,000x10,000x10,000 times comes to about 2,000,000,000,000,000,000.

So, it could be said that the odds off all those prophecies coming to pass by pure luck, or bad luck (depending on if you dont believe) is odds not even Issac's game picker can approach, especially with his help.

AS has a guess and the odds the bible's message is true is astronomically high.

Sleep well tonight Toad, and quit screeching like a cat tied under a rocker. Some may think you uncomfortable, like a pharasee in the presence of Jesus.
you are a douche.
Originally Posted by Ringman
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by pal
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
...So you are a Pantheism?


I tolerate people from all religions. And believe each of us should be free to worship as he chooses. I would never assume that my own religious or spiritual beliefs should be imposed on others.



Pal,

A Pantheist basically believes we and the universe are one. We, the Universe, and all things in it at some level, are connected. The Pantheist definition of God is perhaps the most defendable, so I by no means intended the pantheist label as a pejorative.

We are made of the most common elements in the Universe, and when we die, those elements return to the Universe...


Does this mean your children are no more important, in the great scheme of things, than a super nova?


Without stars going supernova and in the process creating all elements heavier than iron, neither my children, nor any other human would exist.

My children are important to me, but how important are they to the potential inhabitants of the Andromeda Galaxy?

Over the course of the 13.82 billion years of the existence of this universe, how many civilization have risen, fallen as their planet turned red giant, or obliterated as near by star went Super Nova? To the inhabitants of any worlds destroyed in that manner, the supernova was a pretty significant event.
Originally Posted by Ringman
antelope_sniper,

Quote
And when did Nebuchadnezzar destroy Tyre?

Oh, that's right....that prophecy failed...


Tyre was destroyed and the debris from the city was thrown in the sea. According to the prophecy. It has never been rebuilt. According to the prophecy.


Yes,

And Google Earth says otherwise.....
Originally Posted by oldtrapper
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by oldtrapper
Seriously, I find the incredible complexity and vastness of the universe, in the face of man's utter inability to create anything, from nothing, very compelling. just saying.


This is called the argument from personal incredulity, argument from lack of imagination, or argumentum ad ignorantiam.

Just because you can't imagine something doesn't mean it is false, it just mean you lack imagination.


And for what is imagination conclusive? For nothing.

You've got nothing. Only a vast chasm of nothing. You're position is always the argument from nothing. It seems rather, um, er void. One cannot even assert it contains any truth, only nothing. You have no compelling argument for the non existence of God. There isn't one. You only bring a giant sucking vacuum to the table.

I'll, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, hang my hat on hope. And while arguments from design and prime movers are not deductively conclusive, neither are they irrational. What you need to be called on with greater frequency, is that you have zero conclusive argument that proves the converse. inconclusiveness is not evidence for the converse. I will admit that you drive it for a lot of mileage, though.



The burden of proof is upon the one making the positive claim, and hope is not a strategy.
I wouldn't be asking that too seriously. He'll show up soon enough to put an end to all this foolishness. Besides, I want to get in one more trip to Alaska.
Originally Posted by TF49
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by jaguartx
Originally Posted by Sharpsman
Try praying!

Maybe you'll have an awakening!!


I did and I did.

I agree its clear that we can not physically prove He exists (because He doesn't want those with no faith in His word, Jesus, to get on board).

It seems the open-minded who are willing to objectively examine the many miraculous fullfilments of Bible prophecy can reach a point of empiracle proof to the point of beyond the shadow of doubt.

The closeminded are not willing to examine the possibilities any more than nwa is able to objectively determine that letting a bunch of criminal aliens be released back into our population is not beneficial to our country or that progressives are working to destroy the 2A.
The "convinced" are not mentally capable of escaping their lack of knowledge because its simpler to avoid mental scrutiny. They are lost.

The purpose of the thread was to enlighten those who are realizing their life is missing something, and to reaquaint belivers with truths of history that are aligned with Bible prophecy. Thanks, jag


And when did Nebuchadnezzar destroy Tyre?

Oh, that's right....that prophecy failed...






AS continues his assault on Jesus and His Word. Nothing new here and folks I can tell you that Jesus can deal with it.

Anyway, as usual, AS is flat out wrong in his comment about the prophecy against Tyre not being fulfilled. If one is interested, it is good entertainment to read of the intellectual contortions the atheists go through to malign this prophecy. One of these jokers stated that since Tyre exists today, the prophecy could not have been true. This zealous dimwit proposes that Ezekiel prophesied against the “geography” and does not see that the prophecy is clearly against the city-state and evil leaders of Tyre. Tyre was ruined because of the evil it perpetrated.


AS is a blind guide who only leads those that are unknowing and ill informed. He sits in the dark and does not know it.

So, did Ezekiel prophesy that Tyre the nation state and rulers would be destroyed? Yes and it was so.

Did he prophesy that many nations would come against Tyre? Yes and it was so.

Did he prophesy that Nebuchanezzar would come and ravage the mainlands? Yes and it was so.

Did he prophesy that it would become “bare rock” and a place to spread fishnets? Yes and it was so.


Now did the place eventually become inhabited again? Of course, Ezekiel did not prophesy against the real estate, he prophesied against the evil city and it was indeed forever ruined and never to return. Great Tyre is no more, never to be rebuilt. Prophecy fulfilled

It is also very interesting to look at Ezekiel 28. This is a prophecy against the King of Tyre. Ezekiel says: “In the pride of your heart you say, “I am a god, I sit on the throne of a god in the heart of the seas.” But you are a man and not a god, though you think you are as wise as a god.”





Btw,

I note that AS stated : “And when did Nebuchadnezzar destroy Tyre? Oh, that’s right…. That prophecy failed…”



He states this as if it is true and the uniformed may take it that he is correct in this. This is another contortion. Ezekiel says that Neb will ravage the mainlands which were the settlements and city on the coast, not on the island. He did so and history tells us he gained the surrender of the princes and leaders and did in fact plunder. The great “tear down” was under Alexander where he razed the place.


AS and others practice what it called “eisegesis.” He reads something and pours HIS OWN meaning into and then tries to knock it down with some contorted argument. Exactly what he is doing here.







Here is what Ezekiel says:



In the eleventh month of the twelftha year, on the first day of the month, the word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, because Tyre has said of Jerusalem, ‘Aha! The gate to the nations is broken, and its doors have swung open to me; now that she lies in ruins I will prosper,’ therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves. They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock. Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord. She will become plunder for the nations, and her settlements on the mainland will be ravaged by the sword. Then they will know that I am the Lord.



Did it happen? Yes


Unlike Ringman, you are dishonest in your reading of the words on the paper.

Here God explicitly states that Nebuchadnezzar would completely sack and destroy the city of Tyre and that Tyre's land would never be built upon again. However, this never occurred. After a 13-year siege, Tyre compromised with Nebuchadnezzar[wp] and accepted his authority without being destroyed. Despite being conquered and razed by Alexander the Great 240 years later,[2] Tyre still exists today.
Originally Posted by jaguartx
Again, Isaiah predicted 200 yrs before the fact that a king named Cyrus would release the Jewish to return to the land of their ancestors and rebuild their Holy Temple. Isaiah 44:28-45:4.

200 years later King Cyrus of Persia granted favor to the Jewish captives left over from Bablyon to do so along with a requisition for materials to rebuild the city. Ezra 1:1-11.

What are the odds? Astronomical!


Isaiah wasn't brought together in it's current form until around 70BC, after the events "philosophized".
antelope_sniper,

Since I brought this line up, and you cooperated with my question, maybe you would tell us where the first star came from.
" How can we find out if God exists?"

Step outside....
Google earth?

You seem to one of the contortionists I referred to.

Great Tyre, the city-state was completely destroyed but you "contort" and say since there are buildings there the prophecy fails?

You are so wrong here.

You really have no idea of what you are talking about. You are blinded in your anti-God zeal.
Originally Posted by Ringman
antelope_sniper,

Since I brought this line up, and you cooperated with my question, maybe you would tell us where the first star came from.


Read a science book, written by real scientist.
Originally Posted by TF49
Google earth?

You seem to one of the contortionists I referred to.

Great Tyre, the city-state was completely destroyed but you "contort" and say since there are buildings there the prophecy fails?

You are so wrong here.

You really have no idea of what you are talking about. You are blinded in your anti-God zeal.


Yep, the island Tyre was on has sunk into the ocean, forming a shallow reef.
Originally Posted by toad
you are a douche.


Coming from you, that would have to be taken as a compliment.

Keep squalling. There will be a great gnashing of teeth. whistle
yep. douche is a compliment.

and you are the biggest douche on the 'fire. laffin'
Because of Him, I will laugh too.

He who laughs last, ....
If we scratched up a few bucks,...and offered em', just to see you STFU, go AWAY....

....would you ?

GTC
Yes, but cross, you aint got tha down payment.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by Ringman
antelope_sniper,

Since I brought this line up, and you cooperated with my question, maybe you would tell us where the first star came from.


Read a science book, written by real scientist.


I didn't think you would have an answer.

I did read a science book; in fact many. You won't believe what the first one said. It said the first star came into being from the explosion of a near by star! Well then where did that star come from. So I read another. It didn't know where the first star came from much less the second and third generation stars. I remember one evolutionist wrote if the Big Bang did happen the heavens should not be "lumpy". That is the word he used. In the context he was talking about galaxies. He suggested the entire universe should contain a homogenized assortment of subatomic matter and anti-matter.
Originally Posted by jaguartx
Yes, but cross, you aint got tha down payment.


By that do you mean he doesn't have enough for a down payment for this Yellow Avalanche?

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...s/9193461/AWESOME_AVALANCHE_for_sale_Can



Best looking/running Avalanche in the state! Maybe in the US! ( maybe a LITTLE Hyperbole.... smile ) but true in my opinion. Gets lots of looks and compliments. Year model is 2003 but looks, runs and rides like much newer. Slight lift kit (leveling only) in the front to level it and accomodate bigger aggressive tires, 11.5x33x16's. Bright Yellow with black body armour and custom shiny black 16x8 wheels. Almost brand new set of TOYO Mud Terrain tires, 10 ply AND a full set of Hankook mud and snow tires with double studs AND siping come with it! Z-71 package means that in addition to 4WD you get a limited slip differential and skid plates. BOSE surround sound system, 6 disk CD changer, Heated Leather seats with adjustable lumbar pads on both front seats, 12 way electric adjustments, all of the compute gizmos and tracking systems, this truck is a lot like my old (miss this one) Caddilac CTS but with very good off road and bad weather capabilities and safety. ALSO, I had a custom winch added to the rear compartment for help in loading ORV's, motorcycles, other large heavy loads. Was a handy device when I first bought the truck and was doing more outdoor stuff. 204,000 miles on it, but 99% of that was my business use when I was an active Estate planner and travelling over the Blues all the time to places like Enterprise, up into Wenatchee etc at all times. In addition, I had a brand new, zero miles Chevrolet/GM Crate motor installed BY GM MECHANICS three years ago at the 164,000 mile point. Valves and lifters were getting noisy so a new complete motor went in. This Motor only has 40,000 mi on it. Transmission, motor and differentials all changed over to Ams Oil full Synthetic oils and lubricants. Perfect maintenence, upkeep etc. Since I bought it in 2009 with 94,000 miles on it. This has been my business work vehicle, my play vehicle and my baby. But I think I need a full size Diesel truck now. $8995/offer, can consider shootin irons as partial trade if that will help you buy this truck. Have clean and clear title, never salvaged, never wrecked. Has the towing package, and I have easily towed both my last owned 25 foot trailer and my previous camp trailer of 29 feet and 7,000lbs. Sold them both but this Fuel injected 5.3 Litre V-8 gets good fuel mileage, but will tow almost any reasonable pull trailer. This is the truck that Rattler, Asphaltangel and I all took to Tennesee and back. Zero glitches that trip, and if you want to buy it and have it delivered to Upper Maine or NY or Florida, I will drive it there and will have zero difficulty on that trip as far as the vehicle is concerned. $8995/offer, can take a couple of guns as partial trade if that will help you.

I tried to post up some photos, but it seems like photobuckets page or site is down and out right now. I will try to post pictures later in the day, assuming photobucket gets back on line soon.

PM me for some cell phone pics or other questions, details etc.

This is a truly great truck. Comfortable, reliable x 1000 and very off road capable all at the same time. I don't need the winch, off road capability etc. any longer. I hope this one goes to a good home.
AS,

You are wrong…. Again!

This is what you posted: “

“Unlike Ringman, you are dishonest in your reading of the words on the paper.

Here God explicitly states that Nebuchadnezzar would completely sack and destroy the city of Tyre and that Tyre's land would never be built upon again. However, this never occurred. After a 13-year siege, Tyre compromised with Nebuchadnezzar[wp] and accepted his authority without being destroyed. Despite being conquered and razed by Alexander the Great 240 years later,[2] Tyre still exists today.”



No, I am not dishonest in “my reading of the words on paper.” Go back and read it for yourself. Don’t take some other atheist site’s take on it. Read it for yourself. See what it says, not what some dimwit contortionist says about it. I don’t think you even read it. If you did and still make that statement you have a reading comprehension problem or you are the one that is dishonest.

So, read it and come back to me on this. We’ll see if you can get it right.

Further, would you have us believe that the prophecies against Tyre were against the ground and the bricks and the roads or against the evil city-state?

Tyre the great city-state, is no longer in existence but the rubble of it is. Was Great Tyre destroyed? Yes. Did Ezekiel prophesy correctly? Yes.

The answer remains yes for all but the overly zealous anti-god contortionists.

If a fisherman built a hut on that site would God’s prophecy against Tyre be seen as unfulfilled? Well, for the blind man, maybe it would make sense.
Originally Posted by crossfireoops
If we scratched up a few bucks,...and offered em', just to see you STFU, go AWAY....

....would you ?

GTC


Wouldn't give her the sweat off my balls let alone money, just put the douche bag on ignore, works for me. I don't understand why people even respond to these trolls in the first place, if they were met with silence every time they post their crap they would eventually give up and take their sorry a s s e s elsewhere.
Originally Posted by jaguartx
Yes, but cross, you aint got tha down payment.


Time to have a look at where you get your funding yet, John ?
...you know it's all there,a damned interesting bio, too.

...lemme re-phrase, a somewhat damning bio.

GTC
Originally Posted by TF49
AS,

You are wrong…. Again!

This is what you posted: “

“Unlike Ringman, you are dishonest in your reading of the words on the paper.

Here God explicitly states that Nebuchadnezzar would completely sack and destroy the city of Tyre and that Tyre's land would never be built upon again. However, this never occurred. After a 13-year siege, Tyre compromised with Nebuchadnezzar[wp] and accepted his authority without being destroyed. Despite being conquered and razed by Alexander the Great 240 years later,[2] Tyre still exists today.”



No, I am not dishonest in “my reading of the words on paper.” Go back and read it for yourself. Don’t take some other atheist site’s take on it. Read it for yourself. See what it says, not what some dimwit contortionist says about it. I don’t think you even read it. If you did and still make that statement you have a reading comprehension problem or you are the one that is dishonest.

So, read it and come back to me on this. We’ll see if you can get it right.

Further, would you have us believe that the prophecies against Tyre were against the ground and the bricks and the roads or against the evil city-state?

Tyre the great city-state, is no longer in existence but the rubble of it is. Was Great Tyre destroyed? Yes. Did Ezekiel prophesy correctly? Yes.

The answer remains yes for all but the overly zealous anti-god contortionists.

If a fisherman built a hut on that site would God’s prophecy against Tyre be seen as unfulfilled? Well, for the blind man, maybe it would make sense.


Read the words on the page, in the context in which it was written, and it simply didn't happen.

If it's ambiguous, it's not a prophecy.
antelope_sniper,

Quote
If it's ambiguous, it's not a prophecy.


What?! We're in agreement.
Nope, it is very clear. I still don't think you read it yourself.

The passage clearly tells what Neb will do and then switches to the first person, ie God. It goes on to tell what God will do to finish the destruction of Tyre. There are two actors in the passage; one is Neb and the other is God.

It is not ambiguous but you either don't see it or refuse to acknowledge it.

Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by TF49
AS,

You are wrong…. Again!

This is what you posted: “

“Unlike Ringman, you are dishonest in your reading of the words on the paper.

Here God explicitly states that Nebuchadnezzar would completely sack and destroy the city of Tyre and that Tyre's land would never be built upon again. However, this never occurred. After a 13-year siege, Tyre compromised with Nebuchadnezzar[wp] and accepted his authority without being destroyed. Despite being conquered and razed by Alexander the Great 240 years later,[2] Tyre still exists today.”



No, I am not dishonest in “my reading of the words on paper.” Go back and read it for yourself. Don’t take some other atheist site’s take on it. Read it for yourself. See what it says, not what some dimwit contortionist says about it. I don’t think you even read it. If you did and still make that statement you have a reading comprehension problem or you are the one that is dishonest.

So, read it and come back to me on this. We’ll see if you can get it right.

Further, would you have us believe that the prophecies against Tyre were against the ground and the bricks and the roads or against the evil city-state?

Tyre the great city-state, is no longer in existence but the rubble of it is. Was Great Tyre destroyed? Yes. Did Ezekiel prophesy correctly? Yes.

The answer remains yes for all but the overly zealous anti-god contortionists.

If a fisherman built a hut on that site would God’s prophecy against Tyre be seen as unfulfilled? Well, for the blind man, maybe it would make sense.


Read the words on the page, in the context in which it was written, and it simply didn't happen.

If it's ambiguous, it's not a prophecy.



So, what about the fisherman's hut? I guess in your mind that proves the prophecy as failed. Correct?
Originally Posted by TF49
Nope, it is very clear.....

.....It is not ambiguous but you either don't see it or refuse to acknowledge it.



Consider:

1. Would not Biblical prophecy that is not ambiguous be antithetical to God's desire to be believed in by Faith alone?.

2. Is it not a Christian tenant that Faith is the only ticket to salvation?

3. Would not a Biblical prophecy, that is unambiguous and inerrant and thus prove God, seriously undermine the overarching underpinnings of Christianity?

4. God spoke in ambiguity on purpose.

5. Ambiguity is proof of the Christian God.

6. QED

Originally Posted by carbon12
Originally Posted by TF49
Nope, it is very clear.....

.....It is not ambiguous but you either don't see it or refuse to acknowledge it.



Consider:

1. Would not Biblical prophecy that is not ambiguous be antithetical to God's desire to be believed in by Faith alone?.

2. Is it not a Christian tenant that Faith is the only ticket to salvation?

3. Would not a Biblical prophecy, that is unambiguous and inerrant and thus prove God, seriously undermine the overarching underpinnings of Christianity?

4. God spoke in ambiguity on purpose.

5. Ambiguity is proof of the Christian God.

6. QED





I've got to get to work, but I will play for a little while.

In your point #1, you state that it is God's desire to be believed in by faith alone. I do not believe this is correct at all. One can believe in God and have not a faith that brings salvation. Without going to find all the verses, I will say that, in general, most Christians would report that a belief in God comes first, then a sense of accountability to God and then one finds faith to accept the salvation offered through Jesus.

Until we can reach some sort of understanding on this, it is fruitless to pursue your other line of reasoning.
Originally Posted by TF49
Originally Posted by carbon12
Originally Posted by TF49
Nope, it is very clear.....

.....It is not ambiguous but you either don't see it or refuse to acknowledge it.



Consider:

1. Would not Biblical prophecy that is not ambiguous be antithetical to God's desire to be believed in by Faith alone?.

2. Is it not a Christian tenant that Faith is the only ticket to salvation?

3. Would not a Biblical prophecy, that is unambiguous and inerrant and thus prove God, seriously undermine the overarching underpinnings of Christianity?

4. God spoke in ambiguity on purpose.

5. Ambiguity is proof of the Christian God.

6. QED





I've got to get to work, but I will play for a little while.

In your point #1, you state that it is God's desire to be believed in by faith alone. I do not believe this is correct at all. One can believe in God and have not a faith that brings salvation. Without going to find all the verses, I will say that, in general, most Christians would report that a belief in God comes first, then a sense of accountability to God and then one finds faith to accept the salvation offered through Jesus.

Until we can reach some sort of understanding on this, it is fruitless to pursue your other line of reasoning.


Swoosh.

Post was a spoof, son.

Arguing prophecy is only worth the entertainment.

I would have thought *undermine the overarching underpinnings* a dead give-a-way.
Quote
How can we find out if God exists?

Elect Hillary and see if Armageddon comes.
Originally Posted by RJL53
Originally Posted by crossfireoops
If we scratched up a few bucks,...and offered em', just to see you STFU, go AWAY....

....would you ?

GTC


Wouldn't give her the sweat off my balls let alone money, just put the douche bag on ignore, works for me. I don't understand why people even respond to these trolls in the first place, if they were met with silence every time they post their crap they would eventually give up and take their sorry a s s e s elsewhere.



OK. You start...now.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by jaguartx
Yes, but cross, you aint got tha down payment.


By that do you mean he doesn't have enough for a down payment for this Yellow Avalanche?

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...s/9193461/AWESOME_AVALANCHE_for_sale_Can



Best looking/running Avalanche in the state! Maybe in the US! ( maybe a LITTLE Hyperbole.... smile ) but true in my opinion. Gets lots of looks and compliments. Year model is 2003 but looks, runs and rides like much newer. Slight lift kit (leveling only) in the front to level it and accomodate bigger aggressive tires, 11.5x33x16's. Bright Yellow with black body armour and custom shiny black 16x8 wheels. Almost brand new set of TOYO Mud Terrain tires, 10 ply AND a full set of Hankook mud and snow tires with double studs AND siping come with it! Z-71 package means that in addition to 4WD you get a limited slip differential and skid plates. BOSE surround sound system, 6 disk CD changer, Heated Leather seats with adjustable lumbar pads on both front seats, 12 way electric adjustments, all of the compute gizmos and tracking systems, this truck is a lot like my old (miss this one) Caddilac CTS but with very good off road and bad weather capabilities and safety. ALSO, I had a custom winch added to the rear compartment for help in loading ORV's, motorcycles, other large heavy loads. Was a handy device when I first bought the truck and was doing more outdoor stuff. 204,000 miles on it, but 99% of that was my business use when I was an active Estate planner and travelling over the Blues all the time to places like Enterprise, up into Wenatchee etc at all times. In addition, I had a brand new, zero miles Chevrolet/GM Crate motor installed BY GM MECHANICS three years ago at the 164,000 mile point. Valves and lifters were getting noisy so a new complete motor went in. This Motor only has 40,000 mi on it. Transmission, motor and differentials all changed over to Ams Oil full Synthetic oils and lubricants. Perfect maintenence, upkeep etc. Since I bought it in 2009 with 94,000 miles on it. This has been my business work vehicle, my play vehicle and my baby. But I think I need a full size Diesel truck now. $8995/offer, can consider shootin irons as partial trade if that will help you buy this truck. Have clean and clear title, never salvaged, never wrecked. Has the towing package, and I have easily towed both my last owned 25 foot trailer and my previous camp trailer of 29 feet and 7,000lbs. Sold them both but this Fuel injected 5.3 Litre V-8 gets good fuel mileage, but will tow almost any reasonable pull trailer. This is the truck that Rattler, Asphaltangel and I all took to Tennesee and back. Zero glitches that trip, and if you want to buy it and have it delivered to Upper Maine or NY or Florida, I will drive it there and will have zero difficulty on that trip as far as the vehicle is concerned. $8995/offer, can take a couple of guns as partial trade if that will help you.

I tried to post up some photos, but it seems like photobuckets page or site is down and out right now. I will try to post pictures later in the day, assuming photobucket gets back on line soon.

PM me for some cell phone pics or other questions, details etc.

This is a truly great truck. Comfortable, reliable x 1000 and very off road capable all at the same time. I don't need the winch, off road capability etc. any longer. I hope this one goes to a good home.


Maybe you and cross would like to put up some money to cover the bet your mouth is making? Would you let curdog or ringman if he is agreeable, to hold the bet?
You both seem pretty sure of yourselves, regarding me and Him. Why dont we just antee up and see how certain you two are in your beliefs?

Surely your blasphemy as to me being someone other than who I am would be more certain than your blasphemy as to Jesus Christ, who has a fairly famous book showing the accuracy of prophecy concerning him.
Historically you have appeared to be a pretty smart, if somewhat dishonest, atheist. Perhaps its time to put the dick to the first idea.
Give a fool enough rope....

Granted, AS, it took a long rope.

The Lord fulfills the fruit of my lips.
Originally Posted by carbon12
Originally Posted by TF49
Nope, it is very clear.....

.....It is not ambiguous but you either don't see it or refuse to acknowledge it.



Consider:

1. Would not Biblical prophecy that is not ambiguous be antithetical to God's desire to be believed in by Faith alone?.

2. Is it not a Christian tenant that Faith is the only ticket to salvation?

3. Would not a Biblical prophecy, that is unambiguous and inerrant and thus prove God, seriously undermine the overarching underpinnings of Christianity?

4. God spoke in ambiguity on purpose.

5. Ambiguity is proof of the Christian God.

6. QED




There is not evidence, therefore God exists??

Sure, makes perfect sense, grin
Originally Posted by jaguartx
You both seem pretty sure of yourselves, regarding me and Him. Why dont we just antee up and see how certain you two are in your beliefs?


I was just using a running joke to call you a huckster.

You've just proved good evidence for that.
Originally Posted by jaguartx
Historically you have appeared to be a pretty smart, if somewhat dishonest, atheist. Perhaps its time to put the dick to the first idea.


And evidence you are not new to The Fire.
Like I said, I have viewed this site a while.
Anyone try Google?
Originally Posted by jaguartx
Like I said, I have viewed this site a while.


You just didn't say under what User ID.
you put an atheist in a situation where he is going to be killed and he will pray to God.
Originally Posted by blanket
you put an atheist in a situation where he is going to be killed and he will pray to God.


No I won't.

That time and brain power is better spent figuring out how to get my ass out of said situation.
So you have an excuse for stupid, right.

You saved some money by backing off a stupid prognostication.

Too bad you didnt save your ass by backing off another.
Amazing this, and the other thread, is on whatever page given WTF is going on these days... Tells a story for sure.
For a Christian you carry an awful lot of anger. Actually, you carry a lot of anger for anybody, Christian or heathen.

What was the handle you used to use? Curious minds and all that.
Originally Posted by jaguartx
So you have an excuse for stupid, right.

You saved some money by backing off a stupid prognostication.

Too bad you didnt save your ass by backing off another.


Such a good Christian, threatening me with infinite punishment for a finite crime. A crime, that if you religion were true would be to act according to the nature in which your god created me, one that he foresaw before I was even a glimmer in my fathers eye....

Nice try, but I do not fear something for which there is no evidence of it's existence.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by blanket
you put an atheist in a situation where he is going to be killed and he will pray to God.


No I won't.

That time and brain power is better spent figuring out how to get my ass out of said situation.
gun against your head, your last words, you will be praying to whatever god you worship guaranteed
Originally Posted by blanket
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by blanket
you put an atheist in a situation where he is going to be killed and he will pray to God.


No I won't.

That time and brain power is better spent figuring out how to get my ass out of said situation.
gun against your head, your last words, you will be praying to whatever god you worship guaranteed


No,
I won't.
Originally Posted by blanket
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by blanket
you put an atheist in a situation where he is going to be killed and he will pray to God.


No I won't.

That time and brain power is better spent figuring out how to get my ass out of said situation.
gun against your head, your last words, you will be praying to whatever god you worship guaranteed


bull$hit
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by jaguartx
So you have an excuse for stupid, right.

You saved some money by backing off a stupid prognostication.

Too bad you didnt save your ass by backing off another.


Such a good Christian, threatening me with infinite punishment for a finite crime. A crime, that if you religion were true would be to act according to the nature in which your god created me, one that he foresaw before I was even a glimmer in my fathers eye....

Nice try, but I do not fear something for which there is no evidence of it's existence.


You anthropomorphise God. I think you don't understand the nature of God. God is infinite. When you sin against God He is infinitely offended. Therefore he retaliates infinitely. Very simple.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by jaguartx
So you have an excuse for stupid, right.

You saved some money by backing off a stupid prognostication.

Too bad you didnt save your ass by backing off another.


Such a good Christian, threatening me with infinite punishment for a finite crime. A crime, that if you religion were true would be to act according to the nature in which your god created me, one that he foresaw before I was even a glimmer in my fathers eye....

Nice try, but I do not fear something for which there is no evidence of it's existence.


I threatened you? Talk about playing the crying put upon sissy. You really should be voting for antichristian Hillary.
You and you alone put your meat on the table, and chickened out when I called you on it.
Originally Posted by jaguartx
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by jaguartx
So you have an excuse for stupid, right.

You saved some money by backing off a stupid prognostication.

Too bad you didnt save your ass by backing off another.


Such a good Christian, threatening me with infinite punishment for a finite crime. A crime, that if you religion were true would be to act according to the nature in which your god created me, one that he foresaw before I was even a glimmer in my fathers eye....

Nice try, but I do not fear something for which there is no evidence of it's existence.


I threatened you? Talk about playing the crying put upon sissy. You really should be voting for antichristian Hillary.
You and you alone put your meat on the table, and chickened out when I called you on it.


Yes. You alluded to Pascal's Wager, which is an indirect threat of eternal damnation.

All Marxist are Atheist, but not all Atheist are Marxist.

I guess you missed the part about me being a Free Market, Libertarian, Constitutional Atheist.

I'd vote for Ringman before I'd vote for Hillary.
Where did I exhibit anger. I challenged a soothsayer to back up his slander.

My anger has no edge compared to the sword of the word.
Originally Posted by toad
Originally Posted by blanket
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by blanket
you put an atheist in a situation where he is going to be killed and he will pray to God.


No I won't.

That time and brain power is better spent figuring out how to get my ass out of said situation.
gun against your head, your last words, you will be praying to whatever god you worship guaranteed


bull$hit
toad you think so
Originally Posted by jaguartx


I threatened you? Talk about playing the crying put upon sissy. You really should be voting for antichristian Hillary.
You and you alone put your meat on the table, and chickened out when I called you on it.


way to embrace your douchiness, runt. LOL...
Originally Posted by blanket
Originally Posted by toad
Originally Posted by blanket
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by blanket
you put an atheist in a situation where he is going to be killed and he will pray to God.


No I won't.

That time and brain power is better spent figuring out how to get my ass out of said situation.
gun against your head, your last words, you will be praying to whatever god you worship guaranteed


bull$hit
toad you think so


yes. bull$hit.
Of course, a toad would hop away at an insult. At least his lies are intelligent.
Originally Posted by jaguartx
Of course, a toad would hop away at an insult. At least his lies are intelligent.


your lies are not...
Well, Your bud AS sure did some fast thinking and chose becoming a liar over losing some money.
Originally Posted by jaguartx
Well, Your bud AS sure did some fast thinking and chose becoming a liar over losing some money.


You have no credibility. I do not bet with, nor do business with people I don't trust.
Originally Posted by jaguartx
Where did I exhibit anger. I challenged a soothsayer to back up his slander.

My anger has no edge compared to the sword of the word.

Five posts in a row a few minutes apart calling someone out, calling people stupid, this quote:
"Give a fool enough rope....*

Granted, AS, it took a long rope.

The Lord fulfills the fruit of my lips."

I'm pretty good at judging human nature, it's been my major course of study for almost 9 years now, and your behavior and words are classic for someone who is angry and trying to lash out and hurt someone or to prove that you are right and they are wrong and they need to bow down to you and admit it. You unfortunately fit the profile of a garden variety "angry Christian" - although there are angry Buddhists, angry Muslims, angry Jews, angry Taoists - even angry atheists, and angry people who label themselves by pretty much any religion. Your human ego is what is ruling you, not the spirit of any deity. You merely use the excuse of your deity to lash out at others in his name. "Thank God I am not like other men!"

Now a lot folks claim to know what Jesus wants more than the rest of us misguided souls, but my take away from the things he taught was that he wanted people to turn the other cheek and forgive others all the time, never to judge them.

Also, you didn't answer my question about what handle you used to post under.





* You seem to know your Bible, so Matthew 5:22 should be familiar to you.

"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire."

Be careful, God is watching...
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by blanket
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by blanket
you put an atheist in a situation where he is going to be killed and he will pray to God.


No I won't.

That time and brain power is better spent figuring out how to get my ass out of said situation.
gun against your head, your last words, you will be praying to whatever god you worship guaranteed


No,
I won't.


You're not an "atheist", you're a "anti-theist". It seems you're not "without religion" you're vehemently anti-religion. Or perhaps more accurately anti-Christian.
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by blanket
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by blanket
you put an atheist in a situation where he is going to be killed and he will pray to God.


No I won't.

That time and brain power is better spent figuring out how to get my ass out of said situation.
gun against your head, your last words, you will be praying to whatever god you worship guaranteed


No,
I won't.


You're not an "atheist", you're a "anti-theist". It seems you're not "without religion" you're vehemently anti-religion. Or perhaps more accurately anti-Christian.


I am anti-false beliefs, and beliefs without reason. I believe you've previously conceded your personal faith is not grounded in reason and evidence, so yes, I am opposed to those elements of it.

As for being anti-Christian, in this country it's easiest and most practical to use Christianity as a foil since most believers in American are Christian. However Modern Christianity is far from the most harmful religion. Islam and Folk religions produce much worse outcomes in the terms of human well being.
AS, I've stated why I believe and gave examples of "evidence" in the past on other similar threads. My evidence didn't meet your strict criteria, being personal experiences I didn't expect them too. My faith led me to the evidence, evidence that's been refuted by you. That's okay because it's a tough thing to explain personal experiences and the factors that made it life changing,I don't expect an anti-religious person to get it.

I can't imagine that if you had 3 words to say before the gun went off that you'd say "I won't pray" or "there is no God" rather than "Please forgive me" or "Lord help me". But my inability to comprehend your stubbornness is similar to your inability to comprehend a higher power.
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
AS, I've stated why I believe and gave examples of "evidence" in the past on other similar threads. My evidence didn't meet your strict criteria, being personal experiences I didn't expect them too. My faith led me to the evidence, evidence that's been refuted by you. That's okay because it's a tough thing to explain personal experiences and the factors that made it life changing,I don't expect an anti-religious person to get it.

I can't imagine that if you had 3 words to say before the gun went off that you'd say "I won't pray" or "there is no God" rather than "Please forgive me" or "Lord help me". But my inability to comprehend your stubbornness is similar to your inability to comprehend a higher power.


That which does not exist cannot help me.

If my life is at stake, I don't have time for futile gestures to non-existant supernatural being. If the gun was to your head, would you be asking for help from Big foot, for fighting to your last breath.

I suspect Big Foot would not be part of your plan, but fighting would.
There are countless stories of young Americans in battle that are mortally wounded crying out for their mom or their sweetheart. I doubt they expected their loved one to appear on the battlefield 10,000 miles away but often if they weren't crying out for God they were for mom or Susie. The old adage of "there's no atheists in a foxhole" is an old saying for good reason; it's been shown to be true too many times on too many battlefields.

I'm not advocating for a man to be religious just to hedge his bets. In fact I'd be inclined to think such a man a coward of conviction or a hypocrite. I don't think that about you AS. I value your right to believe as you choose and respect your conviction, albeit a conviction of nothing.grin
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
There are countless stories of young Americans in battle that are mortally wounded crying out for their mom or their sweetheart. I doubt they expected their loved one to appear on the battlefield 10,000 miles away but often if they weren't crying out for God they were for mom or Susie. The old adage of "there's no atheists in a foxhole" is an old saying for good reason; it's been shown to be true too many times on too many battlefields.

I'm not advocating for a man to be religious just to hedge his bets. In fact I'd be inclined to think such a man a coward of conviction or a hypocrite. I don't think that about you AS. I value your right to believe as you choose and respect your conviction, albeit a conviction of nothing.grin


Ace,

It's not as I choose, it's according to the evidence.

Yes, if I was wrong, I'm much rather meet your God, or any other for that matter, from position of truly not believing, as opposed to being a huckster trying to fool an all knowing being. I would expect that to earn you an extra special place in their version of the afterlife.
I would too. I've always appreciated your input and believe you are a good, honest and intelligent man so that should count for something if you're wrong. 😉 I can't fathom how there's people that don't believe or feel or see God, I see him often. I realize my disbelief in your non-belief is the same as your disbelief in my belief. See we're not so different after all. I recently learned I was a saint so you'll recognize me by the halo 😇

It's a simple question.

If a man wants to find God let him pray that God will reveal himself to him.

It's an easy no cost matter, just ask.

Originally Posted by AcesNeights
I would too. I've always appreciated your input and believe you are a good, honest and intelligent man so that should count for something if you're wrong. 😉 I can't fathom how there's people that don't believe or feel or see God, I see him often. I realize my disbelief in your non-belief is the same as your disbelief in my belief. See we're not so different after all. I recently learned I was a saint so you'll recognize me by the halo 😇


Thanks Ace, I appreciate that!

I suspect there are many men on this forum who's actions are more deserving of that moniker than many who's received it. Of course their humility will never allow them to admit it, but that is the way of hero's and saints.
2 Timothy 2:24-25King James Version (KJV)

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;


jaguartx,

You need to back out of the conversation. Not necessarly because you are wrong...but because you have lost yourself in the debate.

I have done this before, and simply relized I just needed to disengage. There is no shame in it.
AS, something to think about. I wrote a rambling reply to one of your posts 3-4 years ago and touched on this but didn't flesh out the thought.

For centuries western thought was controlled by a superstitious political organization as much concerned with its own power and enrichment as anything else. It subverted (to my way of thinking) the teachings of someone who had tried to change the thinking of another group of people with a long history of somewhat superstitious thought about their very fierce and all too human deity. Over the years this organization published a set of dogma, beliefs and ideas that Must Be Obeyed or one was cast out of the church and therefore forfeited one's reward in the afterlife. "This is the way the Universe is because we say it is and if you disagree you are inherently wrong because your ideas do not proceed from the very basis of our Universe as we have decreed that basis is." So there! And btw, we'll be burning you at the stake tomorrow while we pray for your soul.

Now we know how much this organization squashed investigation into the physical world around us - the Sun revolves around the Earth and it is blasphemy to think otherwise, cutting up dead people to study anatomy is evil, so on and so forth. But so much for that backstory.

Anyway, along in the late 18th century we saw The Age of Reason, which said if we can't see it, hear it, taste it, touch it or smell it then it doesn't exist. if we can't discover it by our five senses it doesn't exist. We have enlarged that to include artificial aids like microscopes and telescopes and such but the idea remains the same. That has led to an explosion of new information about our physical universe, the healing arts, all kinds of neat things. So much for that backstory.

Now here is where I finally get to the point - "if we can't discover it with our five senses it doesn't exist" - that to me seems as dogmatic, as much of a human point of origin as any religious dogma ever written. "This is the way the Universe is because we say it is and if you disagree you are inherently wrong because your ideas do not proceed from the very basis of our Universe as we have decreed that basis is." So there! Btw, relax, we won't burn you but will scoff at you.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying our physical investigations are wrong. Definitely not. But that unwavering foundation which leaves no room for anything else squashes any real investigation or acceptance into anything that can't be discovered by our five senses. What if there really is something beyond those senses and our scientific method is no more suitable for discovering it than using our ears to hear colors?

Now I'm not postulating the existence of a Superhuman being or anything anthropomorphic running the Universe, I think that is very short sighted and very, well, human of us. If there is a super all encompassing consciousness in the Universe it is so far beyond our understanding that anything we come up with isn't going to even be close - as a certain Jew of much contention mentioned. But what of things like karma, what goes around comes around, which most spiritual (let's get away from the word religious) teachers tell us is a real thing? It certainly can't be measured in the lab.


I'll deviate here and say that I think Jesus was trying to teach us how the Universe operates in ways his disciples just didn't get. They wanted a king to toss out the Romans, he said (as did Buddha and many, many others), you gotta quit hating on each other, it hurts you in ways you can't even fathom, it ruins the peace of mind (kingdom of heaven) that is your birthright. These things I'm teaching will let you have the peace that surpasses all understanding here and now and btw, here are some neat metaphysical ways in which the Universe operates and which you can use to your advantage. Unfortunately right after he left politicians with funny hats and long robes subverted that idea and only granted the peasants entry into the Kingdom of Heaven after they were dead, and only if they paid the proper homage and silver coin to "God's representatives on Earth" during their lifetimes. Nice racket they had going for themselves.



But back to the point. One must always be vigilant for superstitious ideas and sloppy thinking, but also one mustn't allow any dogmatic view of the universe to prevent honest and open minded exploration into all areas of it, including that which our senses cannot discover but which that lack of discovery or even ability to so discover should not automatically rule out. (If someone can phrase that last sentence less awkwardly, please do. wink )

"Faith" is an interesting topic to explore. I kind of have a scientific idea about how it works. I think our minds are far more powerful than we know, but our frontal lobes aren't where the power lies. An unquestioning belief, a calm and totally peaceful acceptance or belief in something - "faith" - activates things that the five senses are unaware of, gives us access to who knows? - maybe an energy of some kind that we currently call supernatural. It can heal sick people in ways scientific doctors cannot determine, it causes highly unlikely circumstances to come together - "miracles" as some would call them. Oh well, don't put too much stock in all that or start trying to argue with me about it, I could go on but when you get into the area of the metaphysical you quickly find yourself out in left field so maybe that's a topic for another meandering post.

Anyway, the idea that nothing can exist outside of our ability to discover it through our senses - which are merely organs delivering electronic signals to certain sections of our brains that interpret them - seems to me to be very short sighted (no pun intended). I'm reminded of a race of people who were born with no eyes intelligently discussing the impossibility of the brilliant colors of the Grand Canyon at sunset.




One last thing which is a question to you. It comes from my study of human nature, which I got into to find the secret of happiness and which led me to spiritual and secular teachers from all times - Lao Tzu to Buddha to Jesus to Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius and Emerson and Tolstoy and Karl Jung and I could go on and on - but one thing I learned was that people don't attack things that don't threaten them - which is to say that don't threaten their egos. We don't try to hurt a cloud's feelings, we don't try to prove the grass is wrong because those things don't threaten our existence or more accurately our ego's existence.

So I don't say this to attack but merely as an observance, you are attracted to threads about god or religion like a moth to a flame. You are obviously well versed in the subject matter of physical science and history and great at keeping the argument in your arena but you seek to disprove the existence of anything outside of the five senses with a fervor that borders on, dare I say, religious. You've stated that you do this because you want to battle man's stupidity about this wherever you find it, but Marcus Aurelius and Epictetus (to use secular teachers) have told us that there are things we can control and things we can't, and you just make yourself unhappy trying to control things you can't. Other people's thinking, which they both specifically mention, is definitely something we can't control.

So, and again I say this with all deference and no intention to attack, I'm just curious what is it about all of this that would seem to threaten you? You need not answer that publicly, I simply put it out there as something to think about.
That's a great post Jim.
Originally Posted by Spotshooter

It's a simple question.

If a man wants to find God let him pray that God will reveal himself to him.

It's an easy no cost matter, just ask.



I've been saying that for years on this forum.

But..... unless a man is WILLING to be convinced, it won't work.

"There is a principle which is proof against all argument, and a bar to any further information. It condemns a man to everlasting ignorance.

That principle is Contempt, prior to investigation"

Herbert Spencer

Posted from memory so it's not a perfect quote.
I don't know whether to post;

"BRILLIANT !".... "HALLELUJAH"... or put you in the same class as C.S.Lewis as a thinker and writer.

Aw Hell....... I'll just go with all three.
pretty decent epistle right there my left handed friend.
Thank you both, you may henceforth call me "Jehovah". wink


Seriously, I appreciate your thoughts but assure you I am no sage, just an honest seeker who went through 50 years of misery before discovering how to get out of that misery. These paths have been trod for thousands of years by true sages, their knowledge is there for us to find, we just need to rid ourselves of ideas other humans have used to control us and try to walk those same paths with fresh and open minds.
Jim in Idaho,

Quote
Now a lot folks claim to know what Jesus wants more than the rest of us misguided souls, but my take away from the things he taught was that he wanted people to turn the other cheek and forgive others all the time, never to judge them.


Generally I agree with this post. Here is a little more information about Jesus. He took time to weave His own whip and kick some butt in the temple. Most folks are familiar with that so I won't document it. Something most are not is "'Judge with righteous judgement.'" John 7:24 In order to do that one must know God's righteous Word and use it, not personal experience or opinion.
Originally Posted by Jim in Idaho
Originally Posted by jaguartx
Where did I exhibit anger. I challenged a soothsayer to back up his slander.

My anger has no edge compared to the sword of the word.

Five posts in a row a few minutes apart calling someone out, calling people stupid, this quote:
"Give a fool enough rope....*

Granted, AS, it took a long rope.

The Lord fulfills the fruit of my lips."

I'm pretty good at judging human nature, it's been my major course of study for almost 9 years now, and your behavior and words are classic for someone who is angry and trying to lash out and hurt someone or to prove that you are right and they are wrong and they need to bow down to you and admit it. You unfortunately fit the profile of a garden variety "angry Christian" - although there are angry Buddhists, angry Muslims, angry Jews, angry Taoists - even angry atheists, and angry people who label themselves by pretty much any religion. Your human ego is what is ruling you, not the spirit of any deity. You merely use the excuse of your deity to lash out at others in his name. "Thank God I am not like other men!"

Now a lot folks claim to know what Jesus wants more than the rest of us misguided souls, but my take away from the things he taught was that he wanted people to turn the other cheek and forgive others all the time, never to judge them.

Also, you didn't answer my question about what handle you used to post under.





* You seem to know your Bible, so Matthew 5:22 should be familiar to you.

"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire."

Be careful, God is watching...


Smart post.

Not surprising, considering the author.
Jim in Idaho,

You short essay reminds me of an essay I wrote for my entertainment. One of many many. The first three paragraphs follow. They say the same thing you did in a parable.

In a drop of water there thrives a mini-metropolis of unicellular life forms. They have no clue that their drop of water is just one of millions of drops that make up a three foot diameter puddle. This three foot wide puddle is sustaining a whole other ecological level of multicellular life forms. These multicellular creatures have no idea their puddle is merely a small slew attached to a pond. The pond teams with invertebrates and vertebrates that don't know there is a puddle; nor are they cognizant of the fact that there is a whole different kind of ecology with air breathing life forms just beyond the bounds of the pond’s surface.

In the topsoil of the field surrounding the pond are unicellular life forms constantly decomposing and converting dead animal and plant matter into more topsoil. Future vegetation will flourish. Running around in the vegetation of the field is a multiplicity of insects, rodents, reptiles, arachnids and others. These creatures are generally oblivious to the multiplicity of flying creatures soaring above them on currents of air; air that keeps them alive. Some are insects, some are birds, some are mammals. (The Bible and the fossil record indicate that there were flying reptiles that used to fly in the air above the field and the pond.) Some of these flying creatures are aware of the animals, such as mice and toads and snakes that live in the field. The mice and the toads are not aware of us humans living at the edge of the field that surrounds the pond.

We humans are not aware of, nor could we begin to fathom, all that God has created inside, and outside, of (what we think is) our thirty billion light year wide drop. How can we comprehend such a Being as the Infinite Creator, unless He greatly humbles His awesome and magnificent Self and reveals Himself to us in such a way that we finite creatures with extremely limited and deficient intellects will accept?
curdog4570,

Quote
"There is a principle which is proof against all argument, and a bar to any further information. It condemns a man to everlasting ignorance.

That principle is Contempt, prior to investigation"


That is a very fun statement. Thanks.
well, since we are in to positing ideas on this beautiful friday morn in late september, then just know that ol Frijof Capra (& others) posit that every single solitary lifeform on this earth evolved from a single cell ornamism. later it split or bifurcated into both the animal and plant kingdoms. thus the trees are our mystical opposites on earth. they breathe in CO2 and breathe out oxygen. we, their mirror images, do just the reverse in perfect order.

then, ol Nikola Tesla, a man of many ideas, were believed by some to be receiving very valuable information from outside our solar system. maybe from a far distant star system even. ol Tesla, what a character he was. if the gov't hadn't seized a lot of his writings, we'd probably be further along than we are.

at any rate, it's every bit very interesting, no matter in which seat we reside at the RoundTable.
Thank you for that, I like it. You state my left brained struggling for understanding in a much more poetic fashion. I think many of us are on the same page here with perhaps only minor differences of interpretation. Or to take a stab at poetry, we all see the same beautiful forest, what we might name the individual trees is a small matter.
The exploration into the meaning of it all can be "interesting". I talked about the metaphysical leading into left field, well...

One person, a distinguished doctorate of practical science, went to India and studied there. He came back fully believing that what we call "God" is simply a regional sub-governor on the next plane of existence up from ours, and that there are several planes above that, seven in all. He knew this because the Indian holy men had traveled to those higher planes in their meditations.

Another fellow postulates that the man we call Jesus of Nazareth was actually an alien from a spiritually advanced planet who was sent to Earth to enlighten us.

I'm a practical person, left brained to the core - "does it work?" is my motto. Also "what is true?" and what is a good way to determine what is true. I looked at the things people from all over the planet in all times have taught us, people who possibly never heard of each other. They each had their cultural leanings and interpretations, Siddhartha Gautama was a handsome Indian prince, Jesus was a Jew under Roman occupation, Marcus Aurelius was a practical warrior and ruler of a vast empire and who didn't like Christians, Epictetus was a slave of that empire, Tolstoy was Russian aristocracy - but when you distill down their teachings and writings, they are all telling us the same things about how to be happy here and now. It's that sameness of thought spanning time and distance that convinced me that there must be something to it and any differences of opinion in the cults that sprang up around these people - for example a messianic virgin birth or a Hindu blue skinned charioteer - shouldn't get in the way of their core teachings.


To get back to the thread - is there a God and how can we find out if this God exists? I don't know, nor would I know how to define that God in a way acceptable to everyone. But I am convinced there is something beyond us, a "higher power" is the only name I can give it, and it is benevolent. It's portal to existence lives in the quietest parts of our minds, the still, small voice. There is also something darker out there (or in here) and it lives in our minds as well. It does all it can to destroy our happiness and it lives in the flashy, loud things, its path is through the bright golden gateway.

To the best of my knowledge, our job here between birth and death is to try to find that still, small, benevolent voice while the loud voice is screaming at us and pulling every dirty trick in the book to convince us to ignore that still voice. Why that is I have no idea, that's just the way it is.

and as we say in internet land - that's just my humble opinion.


yep, that about sums it up very nicely. i, too can be drawn into the left field fairly easily on occasion.

as a commoner, i certainly see no reason to ignore the Great Teachings that have come down to us over the thousands of years of oral & written traditions. probably the greatest teacher to ever visit earth was Jesus, the Christ.

but he certainly wasn't alone in his efforts.


and here we are, and Life goes on.
Quote
One person, a distinguished doctorate of practical science, went to India and studied there. He came back fully believing that what we call "God" is simply a regional sub-governor on the next plane of existence up from ours, and that there are several planes above that, seven in all. He knew this because the Indian holy men had traveled to those higher planes in their meditations.


Your entire post is excellent, Jehovah grin, and I've selected just this part for comment.

There is no question that a man can reach an altered state of consciousness thru meditation, but attempts to even understand, much less explain, the sensations experienced in that altered state have never added much to our knowledge of God as far as I can see. The Revelation to St. John is no exception save his instructions to the churches, and we can't be sure of even THAT.

God gave us a brain to use and deliberately dis-engaging its connection to Reality in search of some mystical greater knowledge is an insult to our Creator as I see it. As you pointed out, there is agreement from many sources on what it takes to be productive and content in this life.

The maxim; "Better is the enemy of 'good enough' " might well apply.

If he knows from the git-go that more knowledge of a particular subject is not going to result in different actions, it's a waste of time for a practical man.
I don't know if Chief Red Cloud actually wrote this, but it is attributed to him. Whoever wrote wrote it defined our enemy perfectly.

Quote
O' Great Spirit, Wakan Tanka

Whose voice I hear in the winds;

and whose breath gives life to all the world, hear me!

I am small and weak,

I need your strength and wisdom.

Let Me Walk in Beauty, and make my eyes ever

behold the red and purple sunset.

Make My Hands respect the things you have made

and my ears sharp to hear your voice.

Make Me Wise so that I may understand

the things you have taught my people.

Let Me Learn the lessons you have hidden

in every leaf and rock.

I Seek Strength, not to be greater than my brother,

but to fight my greatest enemy-myself.

Make Me Always Ready to come to you

with clean hands and straight eyes,

So When Life Fades, as the fading sunset,

my spirit may come to you without shame.

It would be hard to improve on this.
yes, indeed it would (be difficult to improve on this).

if everyone could just recieve the gnosis[b][/b] in equal amounts, the whole world might be different than "what it is."

i do enjoy these somewhat esoteric discussions, and hope i don't afend, or hurt anyone's feelings. but if we just could possess the knowledge of how best to achieve a salvatory solution to at least a part of the equation would or could be a good thing.


i fully understand that when one is captured. or inculcated into a cult, escape can be a difficult enterprise.
curdog4570,

Quote
It would be hard to improve on this.


It's quite easy to improve on that.

Jesus says, "'I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but through Me.'"

Apostle Peter said,
"'Jesus is the Stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the Chief Corner Stone. And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.'"
Originally Posted by Ringman
curdog4570,

Quote
It would be hard to improve on this.


It's quite easy to improve on that.

Jesus says, "'I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but through Me.'"

Apostle Peter said,
"'Jesus is the Stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the Chief Corner Stone. And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.'"


Jesus never claimed that a person had to KNOW that Jesus was the agent that brought him to the Father. I repeat.... NEVER.

As far as Peter's statement, he is just repeating what Jesus already said.

Surely you don't believe that semantics play a role in salvation.[ You gotta pronounce it like this, Pedro...GEE_ZUS..not HAY-SOOSE, or you're still hell bound]
there's so many cults in this world. most are dime a dozen garden variety types.

a few, about 7 at last count have global implications, and are working hard to nudge out the other 6, at least by a nose, to enter into the winners circle.

the left-overs will be sent to pasture, or more productively sent to the rendering plant to provide input for the cats and dogs who need good rations.

when one dares to enter into the metaphysical, mystical, esoteric world, one has volunteered to walk in a very potentially fiery zone.

and then there's the supernatural aspects of the discussion.

where is gnosis when one needs it most?
I never met an atheist or non believer in a fox hole. just saying
Originally Posted by pod
I never met an atheist or non believer in a fox hole. just saying


yep. we got here by some method, means, or process. that's pretty much a military certainty.

and humans have fought each other from nearly the beginning.

i wonder why folks choose to fight each other? they/we both breathe oxygen, and [bleep] in the woods, don't we?
Originally Posted by curdog4570
Originally Posted by Ringman
curdog4570,

Quote
It would be hard to improve on this.


It's quite easy to improve on that.

Jesus says, "'I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but through Me.'"

Apostle Peter said,
"'Jesus is the Stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the Chief Corner Stone. And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.'"


Jesus never claimed that a person had to KNOW that Jesus was the agent that brought him to the Father. I repeat.... NEVER.

As far as Peter's statement, he is just repeating what Jesus already said.

Surely you don't believe that semantics play a role in salvation.[ You gotta pronounce it like this, Pedro...GEE_ZUS..not HAY-SOOSE, or you're still hell bound]


You didn't catch the quote from Jesus in the first part of my post?
Originally Posted by Ringman
Originally Posted by curdog4570
Originally Posted by Ringman
curdog4570,

Quote
It would be hard to improve on this.


It's quite easy to improve on that.

Jesus says, "'I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but through Me.'"

Apostle Peter said,
"'Jesus is the Stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the Chief Corner Stone. And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.'"


Jesus never claimed that a person had to KNOW that Jesus was the agent that brought him to the Father. I repeat.... NEVER.

As far as Peter's statement, he is just repeating what Jesus already said.

Surely you don't believe that semantics play a role in salvation.[ You gotta pronounce it like this, Pedro...GEE_ZUS..not HAY-SOOSE, or you're still hell bound]


You didn't catch the quote from Jesus in the first part of my post?


not to afend, but why not more talk about the mighty YHWH, the ldr of the whole episode, but we choose to talk about his son jesus?

why is one more important than the other?

Quote
You didn't catch the quote from Jesus in the first part of my post?


You didn't read my answer?
Quote

Jesus never claimed that a person had to KNOW that Jesus was the agent that brought him to the Father. I repeat.... NEVER.


Damn, Gus.... He's tiresome enough with only Jesus in the mix. Throw in the Holy Ghost while you're at it.

Gonna be here all night anyhow.
Originally Posted by curdog4570
Damn, Gus.... He's tiresome enough with only Jesus in the mix. Throw in the Holy Ghost while you're at it.

Gonna be here all night anyhow.


ah, indeed the Holy trinity. but how to allocate their relative degrees of importance for us humans who reside down here on the earth.

i know the followers of the YHWH seems to be having a challenge as we speak. we hear almost nothing about the holy ghost -holy spirit. but Jesus seems to be owning most the territory. and more power to him.

so, we've got a Trinity out there: Yhwh, the holy ghost & Jesus. a lot of churces support the holy ghost, but not many churches have holy ghost in their official, legal name. wonder why?

it's all worth further discussion, but it's difficult for me not to sound offensive when i begin to talk about the Trinity? are we going to make a 100 pages? would that be a record?
Originally Posted by curdog4570
Originally Posted by Ringman
curdog4570,

Apostle Peter said,
"'Jesus is the Stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the Chief Corner Stone. And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.'"


Jesus never claimed that a person had to KNOW that Jesus was the agent that brought him to the Father. I repeat.... NEVER.

As far as Peter's statement, he is just repeating what Jesus already said.

Surely you don't believe that semantics play a role in salvation.[ You gotta pronounce it like this, Pedro...GEE_ZUS..not HAY-SOOSE, or you're still hell bound]




Actually, both Jesus and Peter are quoting Psalms 118:22.

Both are using that scripture to point the listeners (readers) to Jesus as being the Messiah.
Originally Posted by Gus
Originally Posted by curdog4570
Damn, Gus.... He's tiresome enough with only Jesus in the mix. Throw in the Holy Ghost while you're at it.

Gonna be here all night anyhow.


ah, indeed the Holy trinity. but how to allocate their relative degrees of importance for us humans who reside down here on the earth.

i know the followers of the YHWH seems to be having a challenge as we speak. we hear almost nothing about the holy ghost -holy spirit. but Jesus seems to be owning most the territory. and more power to him.

so, we've got a Trinity out there: Yhwh, the holy ghost & Jesus. a lot of churces support the holy ghost, but not many churches have holy ghost in their official, legal name. wonder why?

it's all worth further discussion, but it's difficult for me not to sound offensive when i begin to talk about the Trinity? are we going to make a 100 pages? would that be a record?



John 16:13
“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.”
Thanks, Georgia Boy........ I'd forgotten that.

And Gus..... when I heard Billy Graham admit that he could not explain a Triune God but was forced to accept it, I decided that was explanation enough for me.

I've found nothing in the bible to contradict the idea that the aspect of the Godhead personified in Jesus has ALWAYS been the "agent" between God and man. He was not laying down some new rule when He made the statement Ringman is hung up on..... He was just introducing Himself as ALWAYS having been that One. [Before Abraham was, I AM]

That view clears up some of the foggy spots I used to have trouble with. Such as.... what about all those folks who lived before He came as the Messiah? He was dealing with them back then.That still, small voice Jim referenced as still active today.

I can envision Jesus looking at all the convoluted theology and explanations and yelling..."LOOK AT ME, DAMMIT.... IT'S ABOUT ME AND IT ALWAYS HAS BEEN ABOUT ME! THAT'S ALL YOU GOTTA KNOW."
Matthew 17:5
“While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.”
again you simple simon's step off a cliff. You will have your answer. I am too tired after helping my youngest daughter get her condo ready to have about a foot of water in it Sunday morning to argue the point. Read Cedar Rapids Iowa
Originally Posted by curdog4570
Thanks, Georgia Boy........ I'd forgotten that.

And Gus..... when I heard Billy Graham admit that he could not explain a Triune God but was forced to accept it, I decided that was explanation enough for me.

I've found nothing in the bible to contradict the idea that the aspect of the Godhead personified in Jesus has ALWAYS been the "agent" between God and man. He was not laying down some new rule when He made the statement Ringman is hung up on..... He was just introducing Himself as ALWAYS having been that One. [Before Abraham was, I AM]

That view clears up some of the foggy spots I used to have trouble with. Such as.... what about all those folks who lived before He came as the Messiah? He was dealing with them back then.That still, small voice Jim referenced as still active today.

I can envision Jesus looking at all the convoluted theology and explanations and yelling..."LOOK AT ME, DAMMIT.... IT'S ABOUT ME AND IT ALWAYS HAS BEEN ABOUT ME! THAT'S ALL YOU GOTTA KNOW."


Here's a little semantics.

1 Thessalonians 1:6-10

"For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed."
Originally Posted by Jim in Idaho
AS, something to think about. I wrote a rambling reply to one of your posts 3-4 years ago and touched on this but didn't flesh out the thought.

For centuries western thought was controlled by a superstitious political organization as much concerned with its own power and enrichment as anything else. It subverted (to my way of thinking) the teachings of someone who had tried to change the thinking of another group of people with a long history of somewhat superstitious thought about their very fierce and all too human deity. Over the years this organization published a set of dogma, beliefs and ideas that Must Be Obeyed or one was cast out of the church and therefore forfeited one's reward in the afterlife. "This is the way the Universe is because we say it is and if you disagree you are inherently wrong because your ideas do not proceed from the very basis of our Universe as we have decreed that basis is." So there! And btw, we'll be burning you at the stake tomorrow while we pray for your soul.

Now we know how much this organization squashed investigation into the physical world around us - the Sun revolves around the Earth and it is blasphemy to think otherwise, cutting up dead people to study anatomy is evil, so on and so forth. But so much for that backstory.

Anyway, along in the late 18th century we saw The Age of Reason, which said if we can't see it, hear it, taste it, touch it or smell it then it doesn't exist. if we can't discover it by our five senses it doesn't exist. We have enlarged that to include artificial aids like microscopes and telescopes and such but the idea remains the same. That has led to an explosion of new information about our physical universe, the healing arts, all kinds of neat things. So much for that backstory.

Now here is where I finally get to the point - "if we can't discover it with our five senses it doesn't exist" - that to me seems as dogmatic, as much of a human point of origin as any religious dogma ever written. "This is the way the Universe is because we say it is and if you disagree you are inherently wrong because your ideas do not proceed from the very basis of our Universe as we have decreed that basis is." So there! Btw, relax, we won't burn you but will scoff at you.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying our physical investigations are wrong. Definitely not. But that unwavering foundation which leaves no room for anything else squashes any real investigation or acceptance into anything that can't be discovered by our five senses. What if there really is something beyond those senses and our scientific method is no more suitable for discovering it than using our ears to hear colors?

Now I'm not postulating the existence of a Superhuman being or anything anthropomorphic running the Universe, I think that is very short sighted and very, well, human of us. If there is a super all encompassing consciousness in the Universe it is so far beyond our understanding that anything we come up with isn't going to even be close - as a certain Jew of much contention mentioned. But what of things like karma, what goes around comes around, which most spiritual (let's get away from the word religious) teachers tell us is a real thing? It certainly can't be measured in the lab.


I'll deviate here and say that I think Jesus was trying to teach us how the Universe operates in ways his disciples just didn't get. They wanted a king to toss out the Romans, he said (as did Buddha and many, many others), you gotta quit hating on each other, it hurts you in ways you can't even fathom, it ruins the peace of mind (kingdom of heaven) that is your birthright. These things I'm teaching will let you have the peace that surpasses all understanding here and now and btw, here are some neat metaphysical ways in which the Universe operates and which you can use to your advantage. Unfortunately right after he left politicians with funny hats and long robes subverted that idea and only granted the peasants entry into the Kingdom of Heaven after they were dead, and only if they paid the proper homage and silver coin to "God's representatives on Earth" during their lifetimes. Nice racket they had going for themselves.



But back to the point. One must always be vigilant for superstitious ideas and sloppy thinking, but also one mustn't allow any dogmatic view of the universe to prevent honest and open minded exploration into all areas of it, including that which our senses cannot discover but which that lack of discovery or even ability to so discover should not automatically rule out. (If someone can phrase that last sentence less awkwardly, please do. wink )

"Faith" is an interesting topic to explore. I kind of have a scientific idea about how it works. I think our minds are far more powerful than we know, but our frontal lobes aren't where the power lies. An unquestioning belief, a calm and totally peaceful acceptance or belief in something - "faith" - activates things that the five senses are unaware of, gives us access to who knows? - maybe an energy of some kind that we currently call supernatural. It can heal sick people in ways scientific doctors cannot determine, it causes highly unlikely circumstances to come together - "miracles" as some would call them. Oh well, don't put too much stock in all that or start trying to argue with me about it, I could go on but when you get into the area of the metaphysical you quickly find yourself out in left field so maybe that's a topic for another meandering post.

Anyway, the idea that nothing can exist outside of our ability to discover it through our senses - which are merely organs delivering electronic signals to certain sections of our brains that interpret them - seems to me to be very short sighted (no pun intended). I'm reminded of a race of people who were born with no eyes intelligently discussing the impossibility of the brilliant colors of the Grand Canyon at sunset.




One last thing which is a question to you. It comes from my study of human nature, which I got into to find the secret of happiness and which led me to spiritual and secular teachers from all times - Lao Tzu to Buddha to Jesus to Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius and Emerson and Tolstoy and Karl Jung and I could go on and on - but one thing I learned was that people don't attack things that don't threaten them - which is to say that don't threaten their egos. We don't try to hurt a cloud's feelings, we don't try to prove the grass is wrong because those things don't threaten our existence or more accurately our ego's existence.

So I don't say this to attack but merely as an observance, you are attracted to threads about god or religion like a moth to a flame. You are obviously well versed in the subject matter of physical science and history and great at keeping the argument in your arena but you seek to disprove the existence of anything outside of the five senses with a fervor that borders on, dare I say, religious. You've stated that you do this because you want to battle man's stupidity about this wherever you find it, but Marcus Aurelius and Epictetus (to use secular teachers) have told us that there are things we can control and things we can't, and you just make yourself unhappy trying to control things you can't. Other people's thinking, which they both specifically mention, is definitely something we can't control.

So, and again I say this with all deference and no intention to attack, I'm just curious what is it about all of this that would seem to threaten you? You need not answer that publicly, I simply put it out there as something to think about.


Jim,

I appreciate the thought you put into your post. You covered a lot of ground, so I will unpack in on several levels.

First I appreciate you admission of the negative impacts of religion on discovery through out history. These impacts are not limited to Christianity, Islam's experienced a perpetual Dark Age since the 12th century when Al-Ghazali declared math the work of the Devil.

Now a common strategy of theist involves appeal to the methodologies, or state of an art in earlier period to claim to disprove a modern state of thinking. As an example The Theory of Evolution's advanced significantly since the days of Darwin. As an example, we are able to use DNA to correct some previous misconceptions, and and provide conclusive evidence for other supporting facts.

In the same manner, aspects of reason also advanced, or perhaps better understood now, then it was in the 16th century. Not all evidence has to be attributive to the 5 senses. Modern reason allows for many methods of investigation so long as the evidence is measurable, repeatable, and verifiable. Nor is all evidence direct, it can be indirect. To date, we are unable to directly detect Dark Matter, but we can measure it's effects on the velocity of galaxies, and via the lensing effect how it alters the path of light. Scientist have used this same concept of searching for God through indirect effects. Examples is the Prayer studies conducted by the Templeton group (do sick people who get prayed for recover at a higher rate then a control group), and economic investigations into the measurable well being of the religious vs. the non-religions. Neither of these groups of studies yielded results in support of a theist position.

If you wanted to test the hypothesis of Karma within the confines of this existence, it shouldn't be all that hard. On average, to nice guys or [bleep] experience a better quality of life. Of course the supernatural claims would be hard to test. If you marry out side you class do your really return as a worm in your next life?

When you discuss the skeptical view of what can exist, you misrepresent that view. I'm not saying you did so intentionally, just that you don't understand the subject from that view point. The skeptical approach is more about what is RATIONAL to believe. Stating you do not have sufficient evidence to believe X is not the same as asserting that X is not true.

Imagine a 5 gallon jar full of pennies on a table. You assert the number of pennies contained in the jar is even. You have given me no reason to believe this is true, but that does not mean I believe it's impossible. I know it's possible, it's a 50/50 change, but I have no rational reason to believe one result over the other. The same applies to supernatural claims. Saying I do not accept a specific supernatural claim is not the same thing as saying all supernatural claims are false. Where theist run into problems in this area, is claiming they have knowledge about something they define in such a way that it is totally unknowable. Thinks "Russell's Teapot", and Hitchens Axiom, "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

As for your blind race in the the Grand Canyon, it reminds me of an invention that allows blind people to read by use of a device that turn written words into electronic impulses that can be sensed via touch.

As for your observation and question, again, you travel to ancient times. We've learned much since then. Actions typically result from a perceived benefit. Mitigating a threat could be one benefit, for that, see you back story regarding the effect of religion on the accumulation of knowledge, and you references to burning people at the stake. How many of the 9/11 Hijackers were Rational Skeptics? The mitigation of possible risks is not the only reason I choose to debate this subject. While I was in school I got several papers out of the subject, and the debate skills translate well into my work. This week, one of the sales teams did not like one of my findings. I was interesting to watch there attempted arguments go from an Argument from Ignorance, to a Red Herring, follow by an attempt to shift the burden of proof. These debates train the mind to recognize and respond to logical fallacies better than any class.

That was a long way of saying you thesis my decision to join these debates is related to some "control issue". One theory within Economics is that of "Marginal Benefit". There's no benefit in attempting action where you have zero influence. Notice I said influence, and not control. Anyone who's ever managed people knows you cannot control them, only influence them.

Regarding your last statement regarding how you perceive my choice to debate as a "attack", do you extend the same judgement to the Christians who debate against me? Have you asked them what do they fear and why they attack those with opposing views? As you mentioned, Christians used to burn witches, and ISIS still burns Apostates.
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