Have a 1911 in 45 acp that I plan on taking with me hiking around Glacier National Park as just-in-case bear protection.

Though I know it is not the caliber of choice it is what I have, that and a 9mm, so what round would you suggest using in case I need it?

Not to worry, I've already purchased and plan to have the rest of my family carry pepper spray, as will I so that option is covered. Am just thinking worst case scenario or as the Boy Scouts say, "Be prepared."

I would think a 230gr Hydro-shock to the head would work,providing it shoots well in your gun. Bullet placement is always the key...

Use what you are familiar with and can shoot accurately rapid fire at close range. Bullet construction is not going to matter much with that cartridge. Cheap ball ammo that functions flawlessly would be my recommendation if you are not a reloader.

I know that there will be various forum experts that will tell you to go buy some wonder ammo, but I'm going to tell you that you'll be wasting your money. I love the 45acp, but it is a pretty wimpy round. I think your bear spray is a much better solution.

I used to carry a 45acp until I encountered bear up close - now I carry a S&W329pd (and still feel totally under-gunned).

Buffalo Bore .45 ACP +P 255s...

...or their 230 JFP...

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php

Bob

+1 on Buffalo Bore.

Actually I love it more and I think you need more than it


snake

Heavy hard cast. Penetration is what you want.

that's what she said

I agree, HP's won't do on the heavy bone of big bears.

One .45 ACP bullet will piss off a griz as well as another.

A pissed off Griz is what a Werewolf aspires to be when it grows up.

Another vote for the Buffalo Bore .45 ACP +P 255 grain hard cast. I keep some of those on hand.

How fast are those supposed to be going?

Chronographed 5 shot average of the 255 gr. +P hard cast out of a Glock 30SF with a 3.78 inch barrel: 923 FPS, ES 25, SD 12 out of the factory barrel; 927 FPS, ES 11, SD 4 out of a KKM barrel, same length. Buffalo Bore advertises 960 FPS out of a 5 inch barrel. Their numbers are usually spot on or even low.

I would ask Phil Shoemaker about this.

no matter what load you wind up choosing, bring a couple of extra magazines. You might need them.

Nice!

For my own loads using 255 gr Oregon Trail SWC's, I'm getting 850 fps over 5.2 gr of Unique from a Commander length barrel. 6.0 gr of Unique put me at 920 fps but then the POI climbed up higher than I wanted so I stayed with the 850

This.

Glacier ain't black bear country, and the big griz they have up there ain't gonna pay any more heed to a 45 ACP than to a 9mm. Unless you're talking about a Thompson with a 30-round magazine.

I don't expect Phil would be inclined to give an answer that the OP would feel was kind. Phil backs up his hunters with a 45-70 or a 505 Gibbs, because he's learned that's the ballistic category of projectile needed for these large bruins.

You'd probably be better off playing dead than pissing a Grizzly off with a pistol round, even "if" it runs off you now have a wounded Grizzly loose in a national park among numerous tourists. I'd guess you wouldn't have time to ponder over whether to use the pistol or the bear spray once something happens, best make that decision ahead of time and the best choice without a doubt is the bear spray. Carry the pistol for two legged varmints sure but not a good idea against a bear.

I have never faced a grizz, but a couple of black bear up close and personal convinced me of the 45/70. I was shooting mine with a 400grain pill last seek at about 1600fps. Now what does interest me, and i haven't chron'd yet, is a 280 grain pill out of a .45colt doing about 1000fps. Putting that load in a marlin lever .45 colt with the longer barrel you are approaching the commercial load of a 45/70 albeit with a somewhat lighter bullet. Ain't grizz medicine tho.

The round does not have enough energy for bears with humps. Bring something else. Almost anything else.

I will never forget one of the early days working in Alaska, carrying a Ruger SBH in .44 mag and seeing bears every day. Then I saw a set of tracks the size of dinner plates with large claw marks and water oozing back into them. I almost wet my pants. After that I always carried a rifle.

Wussies!



DMc

A "big" glacier griz would get run off in most of Alaska.....so a 505 could be safely reduced to a 416 in glacier country.

I feel as safe as possible with either my 329 or g20, both stoked with heavy hardcast fat meplat pills going as fast as I can reliably shoot them accurately.

Phil always has used and at times still does use the 30-06 for such. Phil is not a hand gunner as for as I know and does no think that they are a good choice.

I would use a 255 grain hard cast in the 900 fps range such a Buffalo Bores load
As always bullet choice is the key in handguns as well as rifles for that matter

I live and hunt around GNP. Carry bear spray, and talk while hiking. Leave the 45 auto at home or at least in the car. Seriously.

Personally I would never ever bet the farm on bear spray alone. What if a person accidentally got between a sow and her cub? The mother goes into protect mode and makes a full charge and the wind is blowing into your face, not my idea of the way to go. I much prefer to have a sidearm in that situation

Much as I like the 45ACP & 1911's, I'd advise you to get & carry a 41 or 44 Mag if you're serious about this issue.

MM

I've never shot a grizzly, let alone a charging one but I think I'd carry the pepper spray for bears and your 9mm for smaller threats assuming the 9mm is smaller/lighter than the 1911. If you have an all steel 1911, that sucker is going to be as heavy as a big-bore revolver. If I had to carry 40+ ounces, I'd just get a used 4" 44 mag & some hardcast factory ammo. Even then I wouldn't feel all warm and fuzzy that I'd be prepared for a grizzly. If you don't have a use for the 44 after the trip, sell it for what you paid. That's "if" I were hiking many miles and decided to carry 40-50 ounces of handgun.

I could be wrong but even if you had a big-bore magnum revolver I think that hitting the brain or spine is the only way you'll stop a charge. Seems like a difficult task with a handgun.

I carried 255gr hardcast Auto-rim ammo in a 45 ACP revolver that went ~900 fps. I don't know how well that load would penetrate a bear skull. We don't have grizzlies here, only black bear and they seem more scared of us than we are of them. The 255gr seemed just fine for lions, but it still seemed weak for a big black bear. No data for that opinion, just a guess.

I know that 9mm 147gr truncated cone/flat point out-penetrated 230gr ACP loads (flat point FMJ) in phonebooks. The 45 had bigger "wound channels" if you can call it that, but the 9mm clearly penetrated farther. IIRC, twice as far. Same results in wood (iirc fir), but those tests aren't fur and bone.

I don't remember if I tried the 255gr hardcast, but I recall some tests of the 147gr where it penetrated better than 240gr JSP from a 44 magnum for the same type of informal test. A few years ago I had a dude in AK send me some info on tests that he and his buddies did on bear skulls. Whenever one of them shot a black bear or grizzly they would save the skull, put it against a log and shoot it with different handguns. He said that 147gr FMJ had no problems penetrating the skulls. That doesn't make the 9mm a bear stopper though.

Seems to me that both the 9mm and 45 ACP are better than nothing but absolute last ditch firearms for any bear. I think the bear spray would be my first choice, but if I ended up on the ground fighting I'd try to get that 9mm or 45 into the skull. For that role, it doesn't seem like either is better than the other. Good luck right?! Maybe offer the bear your leg as an appetizer/chew-toy, then put the muzzle to the ear and pull the trigger?!

Forgot to add that I recall Phil stating that a 44 is what his guides carried. I think his daughter carried a 357 and he felt confident that the right 357 bullet would penetrate a bear skull. You need to have the skill to use either effectively though. You may want to ask him to make sure that my memory is correct though.

A grizz in Denali was killed in self defense a year or 2 ago with a 45 ACP. I prefer at least a 45 Colt with 300 plus grain bullets in the 1300 FPS range but don't discount a 255 grain hard cast at 960 FPS or so out of a 45 ACP. That puts it in the same class as the black powder 45 colt the cowboys used in the day

Didn't say it wouldn't work, John.

Just saying, IMO, there are better choices readily available.

MM

No doubt, as I stated above my preferred minimum is the 45 Colt with 325 to 335 grain LBT hard cast in the 1300 FPS range, not everyones cup of tea. If the going gets tough then I want one of my 475's or 500's just a bigger hammer

If one was inclined to pack an autoloader, a 10mm would be a better choice than the ACP, and with hard bullets. A suitable revolver would be an even better choice, IMHO.

Phil would probably be packing "Ole Ugly", his Mauser .458 Win Mag' as back up on a griz hunt. He has a newer 9.3x62 M-70 in an Echold Legend stock that's lighter for easy carry. With the right projectile, that round would be pretty potent griz medicine.

DF

Why would a 10mm be better than a 45 ACP with 255 grain hard cast in the 960 FPS range. Have you ever tried them? They hit much harder than one might expect.

Have shot both the 10mm and .45 ACP with heavy, hard bullets. The 10mm has more velocity and should penetrate better.

No flies on the old Colt, as it's a proven warrior.

I think a big revolver would be better than either. I like full house .45 Colts with heavy, hard bullets. Not fast, but they hit like a freight train.

I don't own any, but the .454 Casull and some of the newer big rounds would be candidates.

IMHO,

DF

Edited to add a photo of one of my favorites and a good choice. A three screw Superblackhawk .45 Colt, line bored (from .44 Mag) by Jim Stroh at Alpha Precision, fitted with a 6" Shilen, long steel ejector housing and custom sights. This gun will handle the big bullets and is about as accurate as any .45 Colt I've ever fired.



Another option, a .45 Colt custom by Jim Stroh on a New Model Ruger Bisley. I like the SBH version better, but this one is no slouch.

Surely can't find any fault with that logic.........bears are nothing to play around with & there's enough grizzlies in & around Glacier to be of genuine concern.

MM

I tested the 45 ACP 255 grain load against the 44 mag 240 grain jacketed flat point winchester factory load a while back by shooting into 1 gallon milk jugs line up and the the load was not that far behind the 44 in my test. I also like the same bullet in the 45 Super at 1090 FPS. I would rather the larger diameter myself

The 525 grain in the 500 Linebaugh at 1090 FPS will out penetrate the 420 grain at 1383 FPS in the 475 Lienbaugh more speed does not always equate to more velocity. At least it did at the Linebaugh seminar that I attended. The same 525 grain bullet near 1600 FPS from a 50 Alaskan revolver penetrated the sanme 50"as it did at 1091 FPS

The 10mm may very well out penetrate the255 grain hard cast but the bullet diameter in less and thus the wound channel is as well

Speaking of the .45 Super, here's a .45 Win Mag in a Texas Longhorn Arms. It was Mr. Grover's version of Elmer's famous #5 and is a left handed version of the SAA pattern.

The .45 Win Mag cylinder was a bit more accurate than the .45 Colt cylinder and it's the one in the gun. Both cylinders are factory, the gun was reportedly special ordered like that.

This would be a nice option if it wasn't such a rare and valuable piece. In fact, I sold it to a collector for a lot more than it was worth to me.

DF

I would load either 230 gr FMJ-FP bullet from Nosler or Hornady to around 900 fps and practice like hell.

A bunch of DEEP holes punched in anything is gonna test their resolve and determination to continue the charge.

Would also practice shooting from a kneeled position firing off one knee, something like a locomotive coming at ya, you need to be inline with it, NOT trying to shoot down on an advancing threat.

Gunner

+1 to that. Not saying its ideal but a heavy loaded 45 acp with a good hardcast is better than nothing IMHO.

This. Speed doesnt kill, penetration and shot placement does.

I know we sometimes get caught up in "this vs. that " as we're all gun nuts, but the OP spells it out.

I don't live in big bear country, but if I didn't reload I'd grab some BB loads and grab the .45.

One man's opinion

George

I guess a good, sharp stick would fit that description.



Jus messing wicha...

DF

The trouble with bear spray is the wind has to be right. Also it can't be used effectivley in an enclosed area like a tent should the OP decide to camp out. While the 45 ACP may not be the best it is what the OP has. Bear spray is not all that quick to employ so it would be best IMO to have both. This is coming from someone who has never faced a charging bear of any kind, but has had close encounters with black bears.

After practicing with inert bear spray it takes a lot longer to get to the firing stage then a handgun, but once out it was easier to hit the area that was targeted. Having talked to a person who has faced a griz that was stalking him the bear spray turned out to be just the ticket when the bear got to close.

By the way there have been several grizzlies south of the park aproaching 1000 lbs

There was a story a year or two ago, where a hiker killed a big bear in Alaska (I think Denali).

He used a 45 ACP, and a full magazine as I recall.

I read it here on the 24HCF, some of you probably remember it too.

Not saying 45 ACP would be my first choice for bear defense, but it has worked before.

I'd personally take a 1911 in .45acp loaded with the big Flat Point Hard Cast Buffalo Bore +P Ammo, ANY Day over Pepper Spray! As manny others have stated here, it's more about shot placement & Penatration, Penatration, &.... Penatration !

Sure, lots of other Pistole's I'd rather be packing, like my Redhawk in 45 colt, with Max 325gr LBT bullets at 1400fps, or a Casull .454, or even my Glock 20 10mm loaded with 16 rounds of Buffalo Boar 220 grain Max loads.

But if all I had was a 1911 .45acp, I'd be packing it along with a big can of Pepper Spray. Just Sayin !

Do you remember how many jugs it was by any chance? I'm just curious about the .44 with that load. I had a 270 grain Speer handload go through 9 jugs and bounce off the log backstop out of my 629.

If memory serves the 240 grain 44 load exited jug 7 but missed the rest and the 255 grain 45 ACP slug went through 9 jugs and 10 and 11, but that is to the best of my memory at the moment. I posted the results here if someone can find them



Link

I tried out the BB 255 +P after seeing your test here.

Thanks for the link.
My memory was off the 45 ACP penetrated much farther than I remembered

Try full metal jacket an don't look back

There is no FMJ that I am aware of that hits as hard as the 255 grain hard cast at 960 FPS or that penetrates as well

That's not the route I would take. I would go heavy hardcast, particularly with the velocity limitations.

Damn straight, jwp. Pepper spray works, there's lots of evidence for that. But when it doesn't, bow howdy, better look out!

More tools in the toolbox.

If you're going to carry the 1911, just remove the front sight...

FNG is right. It won't hurt as much.

Look at a ballistics table, or if you don't believe that go shoot some wet telephone books with a .44 mag, .30-30 rifle and a .30-06 and a big pistol if you have one. Then compare that to a .45 acp. A .45 LC with new loads likes buffalo of Garrett would be much better. I like at least 3000 foot-pounds for humped bears. A .45 acp has more like 600-700.

Now if muzzle energy actually was a measure of lethality, I would agree. However, paper ballistics have about as much meaning as what you are wearing when hunting. Holes through vitals kill. If you have enough penetration you're in tall cotton.

I own and love the .41 and the .44 mag

I live in the south so no bears

With that being said, in grizz country, I would want nothing less than a .454 casull out of a handgun

Personally, I would carry my .460 s&w

That .45 will do more than piss it off

(This coming from a HUGE .45acp fan)

A grizz charging on all fours has no vital areas exposed,, good luck!

I always felt the head/brain were pretty vital.

muzzle energy is a very poor judge of how effective a cartridge will be. A 223 rem has more muzzle energy than some of my 45 colt loads but I promise you the 223 is no match for what the colt can do in penetration. Test it for your self. Its been said numerous times, but I guess it bears repeating. Speed and energy do not kill, shot placement and penetration do!

I used to live outside of Kalispell and would go to Glacier at least two or three times a week during the summer. I'd feel a lot better with my 1911 in 45 ACP on me then without a gun. The grizzlies tend to be a lot smaller than the Alaskan coastal browns, but they are still very tough and sometimes aggressive. Black bears kill much more easily. Bear spray is a good idea too ...

carry the for two legged threats but get your self some good bear spray. you can empty a 45 into a griz and he will still kill you. spray will change his attitude and save you. been there and done that here in north Idaho. even if under the stress of an attach you hit what you are aiming at a 45 is waaaaay under powered for griz. they are a awesome life force and please do not under estimate their ability to absorb punishment. good hiking.

I find it comical how we think we could hit a charging bear in the head with any handgun in the event it is necessary. Get real, i know could not. Adrenaline rush, heart rate, flee or fight would be overwhelming.whilei have not had the experience, i have two acquatainces who have. One watched the handgun bullets ripple thru the skin on the bears head, . Another said the time it took the bear to charge 40 yds was almost instantaneous.

Depends on distance, but yes, a head shot is attainable. They have a big ass head

Most handgun loads would just hit the skull and do little, that's why there are bigger and more powerful options. I have a S&W 460 Magnum and my dad has a S&W 500 magnum, both will penetrate a griz skull with no question

really doesn't matter which.
bullet placement is key.
Make sure you get it square on your temple.
Or your gonna feel a LOT of pain, quickly!

There are an amazing number of handgun shooting grizzly killers on this thread.

I think you're missing the point. This is no more than an internet exercise -- as virtually every discussion regarding defensive shooting is as well. However, I always carry in bear country, and I always practice to the extent possible, and it is much more intelligent to be prepared for a worst case scenario than just blowing it off with "you won't be able to hit what you are aiming at in the heat of a charge" attitude. You might be able to, and you might not, but I sure as hell will try with whatever I happen to have strapped to my hip. Many a charging animal have been stopped with a rifle, and I happen to believe -- at least in my case -- that I am able to bring a handgun into action faster than I can a rifle. But that's just me.

To many people sell the 45 acp short for penetration..Check out these test off of Real Guns with the 45 acp and wet news print..It penetrates as well as some of the big boomers with the right bullet.34" in wet print is amazing penetration!



Jayco

If charged a man has no choice in the matter, kneel on one knee inline with the bear and git to pumping him fulla lead, there is no other choice available.

Gunner

Whit,i have no doubt in your ability to shoot, but i am not missing your point, my point is just not yours. the majority of folks on any of these threads are not very experienced . Others as you ,are. I just so often see advice offered that does not serve the asker very well and may lead to dangerous expectations that are not reasonable in their case. Of course anyone will attempt to defend themselves to all extents available in any situation. Hitting a charging bear in the brain would require the same skill or luck level as hitting a walnut thrown at you. Same size same speed. .i just would not want anyone to think for one moment a comfort level in bear country be cause they beleive themselves to be proficient with a powerful handgun.

I hear ya, however, comfort, confidence, and ultimately proficiency comes with extensive use of your chosen sidearm. It helps to know that your chosen bullet/load is effective on game. And no, my choice for a defensive sidearm in the field wouldn't be a .45 ACP or any semi-auto for that matter. For many, a handgun is something they strap on as an afterthought. Some of us (myself included) use revolvers as our primary hunting firearms, and I would venture a guess that guys who use them frequently as primaries have a higher level of confidence in not only their abilities, but in the effectiveness of their chosen firearm. I have found that those who cite muzzle energy figures typically have no handgun hunting experience, as they would know that these figures are marketing tools and really no indicator as to how a particular load/caliber/bullet combination will perform on flesh.

To stop any charging animal is pretty much a CNS-hit only proposition. Many a charge has been stopped with a rifle and a handgun. It is doable. Easy? Not only no, but hell no, however, I reject the idea that my chances are nil if faced with a charging brownie.

I don't disagree with you, I simply remain more optimistic.

I think we are more on the same page than either of us know... Godd shooting snd hunting to you .. Thanks for your thoughts

On topic,your best bet is a flat nosed bullet as Buffalo Bore sells in 230-250 grains.34" of penetration with the 230 grain FP is more than an '06 achieves in wet print and the 45-70 with jacketed bullets.

Jayco

Exactly which is why if I am in the woods with anything bigger or meaner than a deer, I have a wheel gun on my side. My answer may not be relevant to the OP question, but bottom line, if I am in Griz country, I want the biggest and baddest rifle AS well as handgun I can get so if by luck or God's grace, you hit that charging Griz.....his ass will go down instead of getting further pissed off

I LOVE LOVE LOVE the .45acp, but I would also LOVE to see it be truly effective against a griz who is charging

I will stick with large bore lever action or bolt action rifles for big bears.

I would like to see some other common calibers and their penetration to compare to the .45.

Not me! I'm fast on my feet ...

Well said sir

First off a handgun can stop and kill a bear without a brain shot. This test I did a while back and it clearly demonstrates enough penetration to get the job done if the need so arises






And yes, I have stopped a grizz with a handgun the one on the left as well as the moose on the left




Too many look at the FPE and declare the handgun feeble, nothing could be farther from the truth

Nice critters and shootin JWP, I realize this is a handgun forum but your reply applies to one of my Sharps rifles too, the 520 gr Government bullet at a lowly 1200 fps is an incredible penetrator.

Energy figures are indeed a moot point, bet I could develop more ft. lbs of energy with a 3lb short handled shop hammer than my 45-70 Shiloh so loaded.

Gunner

i agree completely. even though I carry spray with me daily here in the middle of griz country I also have a side arm as a normal piece of my everyday attire. I don't want to kill a bear unless there is no recourse. my neighbor and friend Jeremy Hill killed one that kept my wife and me in the house for a few days and it turned his life into hell. less trouble to kill a person under the present misadministration.

My neighbors were staying at the Glacier Chalet the �Night of the Grizzlies� in 1967. For those that haven�t seen the documentary, here�s a link. http://www.aptonline.org/catalog.nsf/vLinkTitle/GLACIER+PARK+S+NIGHT+OF+THE+GRIZZLIES .

Judy, was the first to hear the cry for help from the nearby campers and alerted the staff.

The utter terror of being helpless and eaten alive is incomprehensible.

If either of those two groups of campers had a .45ACP loaded with the BB ammo (basically the original 40gr black powder.45 colt load with an improved bullet), the outcome may have been different � warning shots and/or contact distance, stick it in the ear, on the ground, fight for your life situation� no guarantees of course. Neither of these incidents involved a charge, just a slow, methodical/relentless attack of a helpless human.

What this highlights, to me anyway, is that bear encounters (no matter how infrequently they occur) will not be predictable and that the best you can do is give yourself a chance to survive. No matter what you are carrying, you don�t have a chance against an initial blind side attack from the brush at short range. How many attack encounters have you read about where the person survives the initial onslaught, only to have the bear move off a short distance and linger in the area? Your rifle or shotgun slung across your back, or knocked 30 feet into the scrub won�t do any good, but a handgun (if you can get to it) may save your life � or you can play possum (in my case not playing, just frozen). How you choose to do this is a very personal matter � there aren�t any guarantees.

If you are on the ground, injured and your primary hand is useless, can you shoot/control your chosen firearm/bear spay with your weak hand?

Just remember that if you choose to carry both Bear Spray and a firearm, it should work fine under a controlled encounter, but could be problematic (which one?) in a high stress situation (charge).

I suspect that carrying a rifle or shotgun in Glacier Park would be frowned upon (although I�m not sure how the law reads). The freaking �Going to the Sun� road scares me a lot more than any grizzly.

If you choose to use the Buffalo Bore 255 lead bullets, make sure they work in your firearm. I have a Kahr CW45 w/Remora IWB that I use as a grab and go 2nd gun occasionally that won�t work with the BB load. The diameter of the ogive hangs up on the rifling � result is a FTF. I fixed this by using a RCBS .45 Collet bullet puller � squeeze, rotate, squeeze, rotate squeeze until the round passes the clunk/plink/plunk test.

Just some random thoughts from an old geezer.

FWIW,

Paul

Jwp, where did hit the bear and was this a hunting situation or were you being charged or otherwise threatened. Thanks

The bear came in on his moose kill while he and his hunting partner were skinning it out. He shot it with his .475 Linebaugh. I wrote about it in a couple of articles as well as in my book. He should finish the story, but it wasn't a CNS hit and it was more than decisive.

Some may remember the study done a few years ago concerning the effectiveness of guns vs bear spray. Between the rifle and handgun it was found the handgun was more effective at saving a person from being killed or severly mauled than a rifle. The reason being is because the handgun was small and could be used if the bear had a person down where the rifle would have been useless. Now if you could hit the charging bear with the rifle it is a no brainer which is more effective.

A friend went through a bear protection class in Alaska a few years ago. He had to face a fake bear cutout as it raced and bounced at him from close range. He used his Ruger Alaskan in 454 Casull. He has always been an excellent shot with a rifle, but I don't know with a pistol. Anyway, he missed every shot and missed badly. He said it was almost like a real charge because he didn't know when it would happen, but had to hit the thing after being surprised and having a bear charge him even though fake.

remember , you don't have to out run a bear.
Just your closest companion.
So any slug to their knee should save your hide!

Yup, and try taking your rifle into your sleeping bag with you.

Buffalo Bore has a "Technical Article" on its website that has helped me tremendously in trying to understand all the bear handgun stuff.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=108

One of the things I've read elsewhere that made sense to me is that you wouldn't want to use bear spray when already in contact with the bear or from within a hammock or tent/tarp set up. Also, you get more "engagements" with a handgun (by simply carrying more ammo) than spray unless you're actually carrying spare spray cans.

It's "only black bears" by me so I feel more than OK with a hot 45 ACP.

I always marvel at the "just black bear" commentary most make (this isn't directed at you alukban), but I've seen smallish black bears dismantle packs of dogs with little effort. I would hate to be on the receiving end of any black bear, large or small!

That article (I believe it was written by Tim at BB) is an excellent summary, although I would quibble with Tim on one or two points.

First thing, I do not agree with his assertion that a 9mm or 38 Spl is adequate for defense against bears. I've heard this from other people in the past, and it's based on the very true assumption that these cartridges have enough power to penetrate a bear's skull if fired from a favorable angle. Unfortunately, if you're close enough to be shooting a bear in the head with a 9mm you're probably in deep [bleep] already... so your ability to aim precisely is going to be in the toilet, and the bear may not give you a favorable angle to work with. If you can't get a favorable angle, contrary to Tim's assertion, bullets can and do fail to penetrate the skull and tunnel harmlessly under the skin. You can lessen the chance of that happening by using a hard blunt meplat non-HP bullet, but a lot of autopistols won't feed LBT-profile type bullets reliably.

Second thing I disagree with is the notion that one should shoot any bear that shows aggressive tendencies. Tim asserts that any bear that shows signs of aggression is likely to attack a sooner or later, so it's his obligation to pre-emptively kill this "dangerous" bear. But bears make displays of aggression for a variety of reasons, and most of the time you have no clue what the bear's motive might be. A mama bear popping her teeth and bluff-charging you because she's got newborn cubs hiding in the bush behind her is only doing what she's evolved to do, for instance. Kill her for being a good mama, and you destroy not only her life, but the lives of her cubs. Similarly, a grizzly lying on a carcass is going to make aggressive displays (as long as you don't pop up on him at very close distance, in which case he's just gonna maul your ass), which he is again what he's evolved to do. 99% of his time is spent eating other stuff that he doesn't have an instinctive need to protect, so the likelihood that he's going to attack another person in the future isn't high.

Gary Shelton's books on bear attacks are IMHO a must-read for people who spend time in bear country. I had a lot of knowledge about bear behavior and how to avoid bear attacks prior to reading Shelton's books, and it took me 40 years of backcountry experience as well as training in bear behavior when I was doing field research in undergrad to learn what I knew, but Shelton's books doubled or tripled my knowledge.

As you correctly point out, bear spray has its limitations such as being useless in a tent or close-quarters situation, but firearms have their limitations too. Particularly autoloading pistols, in my view.

My practice when travelling in bear country is to carry one or two cans of bear spray in holsters on my belt as well as a large-caliber double-action revolver. (I don't carry a rifle or shotgun unless I'm hunting, any more, but for most of my life up in Canada I carried a 12-gauge slug gun or a rifle because handguns are so restricted up there.) Moreover, every person in my party is advised to carry at least one can of bear spray, and a revolver if they're competent with it. Knowing when bear spray is appropriate or not is critical information, and knowing when shooting is appropriate is likewise critical information.

Shelton's books will provide that information.

It is not that hard from this discussion to tell which people have been around bears from the ones that have not.

Agreed! Black bears can be big bastards, and even a "small" one of 180 pounds or so is potentially very dangerous (think about how much fun it would be to be mauled by a 180-pound dog, for an example more familiar to most folks). The other thing about blackies that doesn't apply so much to grizzlies is that some black bears are man-eaters. They'll hunt you.

I was hunted by a predaceous black bear once, and it was a chilling experience. I was flyfishing for grayling in the Freeman River in Alberta, mid-September, and the berry crop had failed that year, so the bears were hungry and aggressive. I didn't kill the bear, but did put a 12-gauge slug into the dirt between his front paws to back him off. He was a big Swan Hill bear, probably 350+ pounds, and there is no doubt in my mind that if I hadn't had a firearm that day I would have been bear chow. His silent, straight-in approach, lowered head, and direct glare were all crystal clear notices of his intentions. I think bear spray might have worked to back him off, but I didn't carry spray back in those days. Bears have been known to come back at people after the initial effects of the spray wears off, so having another can of spray or better yet a firearm for the second attack is prudent.

Being eaten alive by a hungry black bear vs being mauled to death by an aggressive grizzly? I don't see much attraction in either option.

I agree with you almost 100%. The tiny quibble I have is that I agree with Tim. Why? Because any "black" bear that sticks around after our initial encounter has got eating on their mind - and IMO they need to die from high-speed lead poisoning. Mama will get the cubs out pronto and it will be pretty obvious what she is up to. But if she's learned to raid camps then I think she needs to suffer the same fate - cubs or not.

By the way, the grizzly sow that killed the sleeping camper on the edge of Yellowstone only weighed about 220lbs, and she had two cubs. She was particularly nasty in that she was hunting people.

I use a hammock and I always wonder what sort of a burrito I am to a bear. I've taken to bring a dog with me for an extra set of eyes and ears - I've got one female lab that is very alert. Problem is that I can't take her into Wolf country as she has a habit of wandering outside of camp a bit too far. I've had wolves come within 50 yards at night and they don't take kindly to other dogs at all.

Shelton's books (3 of them) are invaluable for learning enough bear behavior to know when to shoot.

I won't argue with you on those two examples. I abbreviated my post for purposes of brevity, but I agree completely that these two examples are bears that need to die.

One needs to keep in mind the consequences that may fall upon you for doing so, however, in some jurisdictions. In the example I gave from my experience with the predaceous black bear, I was very aware that if I killed the bear, I faced the very real risk of losing all my firearms, having my hunting license suspended for at least 2 years, and heavy fines and/or jail time due to the attitude of the authorities at that time... unless I could show that the bear was actively attacking me. When the bear moved off, my ability to argue "self-defense" evaporated. Even though he followed me at a distance all the way back to my vehicle, he did not attack.



Glad to hear of another Shelton fan. They're great books, the guy really knows bears.

And the ones who have used handguns for more than just punching paper.



I have all of Gary Shelton's books as well and agree that they are a great source of information.

Bears arn't that damn hard to kill...Seen many killed with a .22 Mag and even the lowly .38 special and a host of other cartridges..A very good friend was a Bear hunter/guide and I went with him on many trips until I saw a Bear hurt some of his dogs.

Idaho has a ton of Grizzlies,enough that there finally taking them off the endangered list...I see them all the time back where we hunt but they hit the road in a hurry when they see or smell us,so far anyway.

Been charged by a Black bear that got into our horses and a 130 Nosler out of my .270 Win between the front shoulders in the chest made him go up/swype at his wound and fall over dead.

I don't feel under gunned in Bear country with my .357 or 45 acp even though I have a .454 Casull and a 45-70 BFR throwing 525 grain bullets out of the 7.5" BFR at 1300 fps.It's all in the guy behind the weapon and how well he maintains with what is in front of him.

Lose your cool and your dead or hurt/calm keeps you alive, reguardless of what your carrying!

Jayco

All these "bear killin' with a handgun" threads always seem to leave me with the same impression; I think I'd rather take advice from someone who has 20 years of experience doing it instead of someone who has of a years worth of experience practiced 20 times.

But this is a discussion. You can carry a sidearm for 50 years in the field and not get charged once by a brownie, black bear, panda, or teddy bear, yet another person may have been charged and had to sort one out the first time they went camping. So, years "doing it" -- whatever that actually means -- may not be relevant, particularly when talking about bear attacks. How many here -- or anywhere for that matter -- have been attacked, or at least charged by a bear hellbent on destruction?? I know of one (jwp), however, that doesn't mean that calibers/loads/bullets/tactics/prevention/etc. shouldn't be discussed. JMHO. YYMV.

Ya-well..As usual, the discussion has nothing to do with what the original poster asked....He said he was taking a 45 acp to Glacier and was asking which ammo to use...

Then came the reply's that had nothing at all to do with ammo for the 45 acp in bear country....

Carry on.....

Jayco

Hey, I'm cool with discussing things - I was just making an observation.

Jjhack had a career of trapping and dispatching black bears -a very good reference on the subject. It would be worth it to search for his posts on killing bears.


888

I have to say, while I think bear defense is very over thought (easy to say sitting in Iowa), I have found this thread to be informative. Best I've read with many good points both for and against (still a few worn out BS cliches thrown in).

I can't imagine buying a specific more powerful gun for a trip to grizz country. If I were to go I'd still use my .357. Sure I'd cross my fingers some but no matter how big of gun I'd be doing the same. Being a flat lander I'm liking the advice of the BB ammo and dance with who brung ya.

Except for very rare exceptions you have 2 camps when it comes to bear defense. Those that have never done it and those they have done it once. Even twice is a very rare occurrence. For those that have done it, whatever they used musta worked but when it comes right down to it there's not much difference when it comes to practical knowledge IMO. Just cause something worked once does not mean that it will work again in the same situation. I pray that we never have enough actual data to prove how lame a .45acp is or how great .454's and bigger are. If those are the actual case.

Still, I'm actually soaking this thread up and enjoy it. Thanks.

I don't have much experience with grizzly bears, nor do I pretend to. The one I witnessed in full charge mode from about 800 yards away convinced me that I would like to be in a tank under such circumstances. What I do know is that I really suck at shooting handguns that fire monster cartridges. I hate shooting .44 magnums, and couldn't even dream of accurately shooting some of the stuff you guys shoot, at least beyond the first shot. I am better off carrying something I shoot a lot, with an upload that I can handle, than to fantasize that I can buy a .454 Casull and do a better job with it. I just have to stick to something within my limitations. Now, I don�t get too far off pavement in grizzly country when all I have is a handgun. But, I do carry my Glock 30 with 255 grain +P Buffalo Bores (after seeing jwp475's test) as a primary when bowhunting in an area with regular sightings of black bears, occasional sightings of mountain lions, and probably some wolf encroachment by now. If I get attacked walking in without lights before daylight, it's going to be worse than getting hammered by a linebacker and then having to draw and fire at contact distance after being knocked to the ground. I do try to mentally prepare myself for that while I am walking in.

It looks like I can't get any Gary Shelton books for my Nook, so I may have to find some print versions.

P.S. I should start a thread entitled "What handgun/load for a knife wielding amped up meth-head charging you from 15 feet" and see if people's choices differ much from these bear threads. Most people are more likely to face that scenario than a charging bear, and I doubt many carry their "preferred" firearm and load while walking about town.

I've got some 185gr Hornady Z-MAX. If it'll kill Zombies it outta take out any bear wouldn't ya think?...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJkOyPLT3o8

Most definitely!

You would be wrong chief! Ask Whit or Jwp about their handgun experience or better yet read whits book. Probably shouldnt make a staement like that when you dont know.

She's very good about talking about shcit she doesn't understand.

Fascinating.

I was almost tempted to ask you for your insight, but I expect rather than enlightenment we'd receive obfuscation.

Lotof good info from a lot of knowledgeable folks,, thanks to all!

Everyone has heard of the two guys saved by the 45 acp in Alaska and if that don't go far enough on smaller less potent handguns work on bears,here is a 9MM with the proper bullet saving peoples bacon.

The 45acp with a good 230 grain FP is more than capable of killing or stopping a bear!



Jayco

It looks like throwing your shotgun at a bear works also!

Now there you go muddying the water with a real-life example. You need to learn to stay on task there, Buddy. :^)

There's a blog article here. I can't vouch for it, but there is a link to a newspaper article concerning one of the incidents.

Logcutter is an experienced optimist.

For all you doubting buttheads from puzzy states like PA and TX, I worked in SE Alaska and saw bears everyday for several months. Some of them had paws the size of dinner plates. The only person I ever saw in the field was a US Fish and Wildife agent and he was required to carry a .375 H and H if he got out of his boat.

All of this discussion about .45 acps and .357 mags is quite humorous, but a waste of time. If you are going to question someone's else's experience, next time get some of your own.

Phil Shoemaker has a lot of up close and personal experience with big Alaskan bears and he's comfortable with a .357 and the right bullets. He has a great article in the June 2003 Handloader titled "Handguns and Bears" on the subject.

Here's a quote from him on this forum on the subject:
458Win on handguns and bears



My take - a handgun you can shoot well, including a .45acp, with the right bullets is a hell of a lot better than a cannon you can't shoot, a sharp stick, or a rifle you left in the truck because it was too heavy to carry.

For the average person Mr.Shoemaker's advice is misleading and dangerous. There is some logic in carrying handgun's because they are easier to keep on your person. But he is doing a disservice by suggesting a .357 or .45 acp. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but some opinions can get you dead.

Someone needs to explain this to me,especially those saying the 45 acp can't kill game at close range....

Everyone here has heard of the Linebaugh penetration test,I assume....Okay,part was done in wet paper as was the test on the 45 acp.....So here are the results of one,a so-called big boomer(.480 Ruger) versus the lowly 45 acp,that some think is a paper weight for killing bears.....

.480 Ruger-325 grain XTP-17" of penetration in wet paper.
45 acp.....230 grain XTP-18" of penetration in wet paper.

.480 Ruger-306 graan LFN-25" of penetration in wet paper.
.480 Ruger-390 grain LFN-31" of penetration in wet paper.
45 acp.....230 grain FP..34" of penetration in wet paper.

Can't be,can it?

Jayco

No offense intended, but I'll take his advice over most all day long and twice on Sunday.

Rule #1 of gunfighting is have a gun. Any RELIABLE gun is better than no gun. Can't see how that applies to defense from 4 legged critters any less than it does to 2 legged critters.

and you have months around bears, Phil has decades of living around them.....wonder whose opinion is worth more....

You might be better off carry the 9mm for the extra penetration. Regardless of the handgun you use, you had better shoot straight and put one in the brain or you will get chewed on

Well since the wheels have already come off this wagon, I'll just stoke the fire some more: :^)

I think there's ample evidence in the real world to indicate the "average" shooter would be much better served if he were using a .357 Magnum instead of a .454 Casull, and a .270 Win instead of a .416 Rigby...... regardless of the critter being shot.

Jayco, I have done a boatload of penetratioon testing and have never seen the .45 ACP loaded any which way, go anywhere near 34-inches of penetration in wetpack. Not saying it isn't possible, but which seminar did that data come from? I have a lot of Linebaugh Seminar data compiled, and can't recall a .45 ACP doing that well.

Yes, and where are all these accounts of failed bear defense with a 45ACP???, or 9mm for that matter??

(just stoking the fire....)

Whit

Just playing the penetration game but I was surprised at the results with the 45 acp with XTP and Flat Point bullets done by a reputable guy but not the Linebaugh seminar.



Jayco

While true

You should add "fit for purpose"

If you find yourself in a Bear attack you want a stopper

and

The 45ACP is mad to stop men not bears

Snake

I'm not saying go buy a 45 acp to go bear hunting,but I am saying that a 45 acp will kill bears just fine with the right ammo as well as the .357 and other smaller bore.The opp asked about "ammo" for his 45 acp in bear country,not if it was the best choice.

I'm no stranger to big bore revolvers.I love them....What a kick to shoot.But we don't always have our hog legs with us as much as we do our less potent handguns.So,use a good bullet and the 45 acp and others will work..


Jayco

For all you people willing to be duped by the myth of .357 and .45 acp for humped bear defense, I have another idea. Carry a .380 auto with aone round in the chamber in the waistband of your panties. Then when you see a bear you can shoot yourself and get it over with.

You don't hear about failed .45 acp bear encounters because until recently no one was dumb enough to use one for bear defense on purpose.

How about a .223 on Polar or Brown bears?..

Will that work?

Jayco

Only if you have lace on your drawers .......

It wasn't until "recently" that we even had guns like .44 magnums, 454 Casulls and all the specialty "bear guns" you see today. So, I would imagine that people have used some pretty lowly calibers over the years, whether they used them "on purpose" or because that's all that was available to them. This seems more plausible than your assertion.

Speak for yourself! I always pack one!

I lived in Alaska for 7 years and I am familiar them as well. A kenai resident save his zzz while I was there with a 357 mag. Kenai bears are large as you should know. The bear got on him before he even knew the bear was near he finally got his 357 out and shot the bear in the mouth ending all hostilities

FOr you to po paw on the use of a handgun to save one life just shows your lack of knowledge on the subject

If PA and Texas are puzzy states, what does that make Nevada?? Good grief, man! Settle down, Beavis!

Just a quick question to determine from where your perspective originates. Do you hunt with a handgun? I only ask as those who don't often don't really know how effective they can be when loaded properly.

Funny you mention that, I just got back from 3 weeks on the snow line of where I hunt looking for the returning elk...Went for my morning jaunt with my BFR/Bandolero riding my chest when two ghost dogs popped out and another started howling not far away...Must have been getting close to a den but it made me think if 5 shots were enough in the worst case.....

Went back the next morning with my Springfield and two 10-round clips instead of the hog leg knowing that bears and other critters most likely would not be around with a pack of ghost dogs there and also in a pinch,the 45 acp will work or should,I hoped.

It's all in fun,at least in my case.I just hated to come back and have to be here another week, but these threads make town time easier!

Jayco

To the folks that say a .357 or 9mm or whatever typical handgun load would be fine:

I have no experience with bears or in bear country so I am not speaking from experience, but common sense...

I am sure that with the correct shot placement, you can take down even the largest grizzly with something as small as a .22LR

BUT, knowing that I have the even slightest chance of coming across and possibly being chased or charged by an animal that LARGE, that AGGRESSIVE, and that can KILL me in an instant, I would rather have a handgun that will drop an animal of that size in a single shot. Yes, placement is key, but again, the larger the round, the more room you have to make a good shot.

Bottom line, I would rather have a gun that I know will kill a bear than one that may kill a bear

The 45 ACP 255 grain hard cast at 960 FPS is very comparable to the black powder 260 grain 45 Colt load. A famous livestock grizzly in Montana in the 1800's was killed by a rancher with a 45 Colt

Looks like you aren't up on your history any better than you are knowing about the effectiveness of a handgun with a proper bullet & load

all the .45acp is in reality a more modern delivery system, i.e. pistol, based on the .45colt and for similar reasons, they worked.
I load a 270saa bullet in the .45colt which weighs out in casting to about 282grains, and i don't really hot load them but keep them in the 950 to 1000fps range on purpose. I get about .90 expansion on diameter on the hollow points. On the solids they are deep penetrating.
Big fat bullets at moderate velocities are quite deep penetrating.

RoninPhx, those that actually shoot them know what you are posting, you are definitely one of the enlightened ones.

Guess I remember why I have you on ignore. Hostile know it all! You're arguing with some very experienced handgun hunters too, but it looks like you know more than them, huh? Read the OP first post. He didnt ask what the best caliber for bear defense was. In that case, no one in their right mind would tell him a 45 acp over everything else. He said that it was all he had and would it work in a pinch. It has killed bears so the answer is if thats all he has its better than nothing. With the right load it will penetrate to the vitals. I dont know why I'm even answering you back because you have showed your true colors and are looking to argue and not learn.

gunchamp you are spot on, no one is saying that the 45 ACP is the best choice, but with the correct bullet/load it can and will work.

My personal bottom line is a 45 Colt with a 325 LFN or 335 WFN (even better IMHO) at 1300 or so FPS. A475 or 500 doesn't hurt anything, but a255 grain hard cast that is capable of penetrating 9 gallon mil jugs full of water is workable. That is more penetration than a lot of 44 mag bullet, not all but more than some

My post said it was the wrong caliber and bring something else.
A .45 Colt LC is a huge improvement.

In year's past people brought rifles.

If you take the 34" the 45 acp did In wet paper and compare it to the linebaugh test,in wet paper,you will see it does quite well compared to other bigger boomers.

Better than I would have ever thought.

Jayco

You didn't answer my question. Not being combative, simply inquiring.

Not sure what pistol/revolver or caliber he used, not saying that it's optimal, but it seemed to work.

http://www.adn.com/2011/09/09/2057762/soldotna-officer-kills-bear-in.html

So, you would suggest that he bring his 9mm instead? Not the choice I would make, but based on your "enlightened" status of having spent a couple months in AK.......

For conversation, BB's 255gr +P 45 ACP load exceeds the standard 45 Colt 255gr load.

In a situation where you can carefully aim and shoot a big game animal such as an elk or deer, what percent of the time does the animal drop in its tracks, and what percent will it run 50-100 yards before it gives up the ghost? For me, at least half the animals that I have killed have run some distance before expiring. The last elk I killed had a quarter sized exit hole from his chest and he pumped out a lot of blood, but still ran a good 100+ yards.

I don't think my experience is that unusual. So what is it that gives people the idea that shooting a small target (the CNS of a bear), moving very fast towards you, while you are in a very hurried situation to say the least, will result in a good chance to killing the bear before he gets to you?

I think people that have killed a bear in a hunting situation may be confusing that with a true self defense scenario.

I'll be in the Yellowstone country next month and I'll be carrying my model629 because I like to carry it and 911 doesn't work very well there, but no way I won't have my can of pepper spray as well.

again this is not what the opening post asked. He did not ask what is better, he asked the following

I think you're missing the point. What you describe in the latter part of your post isn't a matter of the chosen firearm/caliber/load/bullet effectiveness on bear or any other animal, but a matter of the effectiveness of the shooter to get it done when the pressure is on. No arguing the difficulty of that task. However, the argument here is whether or not, the .45 ACP, when loaded appropriately, is capable of delivering the goods if placed well. That's a different argument altogether as far as I am concerned.

A still hunted bear is indeed a different animal than one alerted and pumped on fear and adrenaline. We hunt black bear every year with dogs, and those animals are scared, pumped, adrenalized, pissed, and agitated. Again, a different animal.

That load is a good woods load. I have fired it numerous times and it is definetly stout. If a 45 acp is all I had that's what it would be stoked with in bear country.

Whatever would penetrate a grizzly's skull and that you can shoot accurately. Make sure it feeds an functions in your 1911 too.

Soooo... anyone know what velocity you could expect from the 255gr BB ammo when shot from a Springfield XDs?

I got right around 850fps in a compact xdm I had.

If you look at the anatomy of a bear skull. Penetration may be difficult because of the steep slope the the skull. When he is looking at you the slope of the skull is very close to parellel with the bullets path and may only deflect.. This thread needs to be sorted as to the hunting application and self defense application of handguns of any caliber.

According to U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) investigations of human-bear encounters since 1992, persons encountering grizzlies and defending themselves with firearms suffered injury about 50% of the time. During the same period, persons defending themselves with pepper spray escaped injury most of the time and those that were injured experienced shorter duration attacks and less severe injuries.

Other researchers have come to the same conclusions. According to the USFWS, Canadian bear biologist / bear conflict expert Dr. Stephen Herrero, a person�s chance of incurring serious injury from a charging grizzly doubles when bullets are fired versus when bear spray is used. Also, in a study published in the April 2008 Journal of Wildlife Management, Tom Smith examined "The Efficacy of Bear Deterrent Spray in Alaska." The study showed that in 72 cases where people used bear pepper spray to defend themselves from bears, the spray stopped bears 92 percent of the time and 98 percent of the people involved were uninjured.

Thank you

I usually stay out of these threads because they tend to "wander" a bit, but here is a situation where a .357 saved the day against a full grown Montana grizzly. I'll bet a .45 ACP with decent ammo would have done the same. Neither would be a sane choice for deliberately hunting grizzly, but either would be better protection in an emergency than a dirty look or a nasty remark. Also, either would be easier to carry and handier to use in close quarters than a single action BFR that weighs 4 1/2 pounds.

that was a OH shist! moment if ever there was one. have always wondered what choice words he had for his friend with the camera merrily snapping away?

The photographer dropped the camera when he realized what was happening. The whole thing was over in a few seconds. In a way it's too bad the camera was dropped because there are no photos of the actual shooting, and the photographer was unarmed and too far away to do anything about the situation.

I remember reading about the bear attacking the warden after being released. There were more photos than the 2 above. That happened in Montana I believe in the 90's. The warden that was attacked suffered a broken ankle I believe from a bite. There was also another officer in the truck as well

I am a believer in bear spray. It wasn't invented when I worked in Alaska but I carry it now along with a Model 71 Winchester.

I used to work with a wildlife biologist from Havre, MT, also a former jet fighter pilot. His head professor at MSU in Bozeman had a grizz skull on his desk with one small hole in it...from a .22 pistol. He shot it in self-defense from 12 feet and was very luck to have survived.

It was in '87 and the Montana F&G Officer involved was Lou Kis. I suspect the story and pics are archived somewhere.

Ask and Thou shalt receive:

http://www.fieldandstream.com/photos/gallery/hunting/2008/01/grizzly-attack-caught-camera

Not much I can add that's technical or helpful, but these bear threads are always entertaining. Black bears in Oregon seem very timid in general. Most attacks I recall reading about here are hunts gone wrong.

Here's a couple of Oregon stories that have stuck in my memory. Just so happens that they both involved a 45 ACP. I know the OP asked about grizzlies, but some black bears are huge. The bear in the second story was a tank. I remember seeing the picture of the bear.


Not trying to make any points here... just thought someone might like to read them.

First one:

Man survives struggle with black bear in Oregon

GLIDE, Ore. -- Aaron Wyckoff didn't start to panic until his .45-caliber pistol quit firing, and the bear kept chewing on his arm.

So, he recalls, he tried to pull the bear's jaws apart. Then he tried to roll down the ridge where he and the bear were wrestling. But the bear grabbed his calf, pulled him back and went for his groin.

Wyckoff said he countered by shoving his pistol and his hand into the bear's mouth. But by then, the struggle in the Cascade Range in Southern Oregon attracted the attention of Wyckoff's party, and other hunters rushed over.

Justin Norton fired a round from his .44-caliber pistol into the black bear's stomach, to no avail. He approached the bear, put the gun behind its ear and fired again. It finally rolled away.

"I walked right up to his head, and he didn't even look at me," said Norton, 26.

With the dying bear still struggling, a final round finished him off.

"He was dead. He just didn't know it," Wyckoff said. "It was just all adrenaline."

Wyckoff was helping friends track a wounded bear May 31 on the last day of the hunting season.

Fifteen-year-old Chris Moen of Glide, who had drawn the tag, hit the animal in the shoulder with a .338-caliber rifle round, but he and his father couldn't pick up a trail of blood.

They called on Wyckoff and friends to help track it. A few hours later, Wyckoff went up a hill for a view.

He heard a rustling in the bushes behind him, then a grunt. The bear had apparently circled around the group.

"We never even heard him," said Wyckoff.

Wyckoff said he fired a round into the bear's forehead, but the animal kept coming and climbed on top of him. From beneath, Wyckoff said, he got off three more rounds.

Then he tucked the gun beneath the bear's chin. But it quit. Wyckoff, left-handed, said he had accidentally released the ammunition clip.

After the attack, Wyckoff sat still, not wanting to move for fear the bear had ruptured the femoral artery in his groin. Mustering the courage to look down, he saw his shredded jeans, but not much blood.

At the hospital, a surgeon sewed him up, astonished that the bear had missed every major artery, as well as Wyckoff's tendons.

After two days in the hospital, Wyckoff was discharged, with orders to stay home from work for at least two weeks.

His right arm remains bandaged. Silver staples hold gashes together.

His .45 is covered with teeth marks but still works.

The bear weighed more than 260 pounds after field dressing. It has since been sent to a taxidermist.

Wyckoff said he's grateful for his friends' quick actions and that he stayed firm when his 10-year-old son tried to go along that day.

Would Wyckoff hunt down another bear?

"Oh yeah," he said. "Fall bear season starts back up in August."




Read more: http://www.seattlepi.com/local/arti...bear-in-Oregon-1276350.php#ixzz2Vb5PE9IP

Second Oregon story.

Jason



[i]�Bears always run away'

Published: June 4, 2008

Joshua McKim of Halfway shot and killed this approximately 400-pound black bear on May 28 when it ran at him while he was picking mushrooms in the mountains north of Halfway.
Submitted photo

By JAYSON JACOBY

Baker City Herald

When the bear just up the hill roared, Joshua McKim's first thought was that he had never heard a bear make a sound like that.

His second thought, almost instantaneous with the first, was that he was awfully glad he had brought his pistol on this mushroom-picking trip.

When he first glimpsed the bear through the thick brush, McKim had cocked the hammer on the .45 caliber semi-automatic Taurus, a copy of the famous 1911-model Colt.

The bear didn't move.

McKim, 22, who has picked mushrooms and hunted deer and elk in the Wallowa Mountains above his hometown of Halfway since he was a boy, has seen maybe 20 bears.

And every one had fled, rumbling away from him in that awkward but oddly efficient gait peculiar to bears.

But this bear just stood there, no more than 35 yard away, staring down at McKim.

"I was saying, why isn't he running away � the wind's blowing right at him so he must be able to smell me," McKim said, recounting what happened a week ago today, on the evening of May 28.

"This is really weird. Bears always run away. Maybe I should holler at him."

The bear hollered first.

Then, finally, the bear started moving.

Right at McKim.

McKim yelled.

"He kind of hesitated for a second," McKim said.

"Then he came on. Faster."

McKim fired the first of the eight bullets in the .45's clip.

"The first shot hit him in the shoulder."

The bear tumbled, rolling for about 10 feet until it came to a flat place.

The bear righted itself and kept moving, not directly at McKim but in his direction.

The bear was closer now, 15 yards or so.

McKim pulled the trigger until the clip was empty.

"I knew I was hitting him; I didn't know where," he said. "I wasn't about to let him get any closer."

The bear careened into a patch of brush and McKim couldn't see the animal.

"I wasn't about to go into the brush with a wounded bear in there," he said. "I couldn't see much."

Besides, he was out of bullets. [/i]

Cool stories there for sure.

As a side note, Incident #1 eludes that the shooter's gun may have malfunctioned sometime during the event but didn't provide any details.

If you carry a semi-automatic pistol for protection or defense, make it part of your mindset to refrain from making contact with the target (or anything else) with your gun during the pistol's cycle of operation, as it can readily cause a stoppage.

Lying on your back with a bear trying to chew your gonads off isn't a good time to bone up on your clearance drills .... especially with one hand.

Says he accidentally released the magazine. It happens.

Thanks for pointing that out - I didn't read far enough.

Lefties inadvertently depressing magazine catches on guns designed for righties is a common problem I'm afraid, and Murphy was obviously up this guys azz.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=214

Reviewer: Lee Hoagland
03/24/2011 03:53am
These are what I carry in my 3" Kimber while in the woods. A .45 ACP is a poor excuse for a black bear/wild hog gun, but if there's one load commercially available that would do the job, it's this one. The meplat does not have the surface area of a WFN or SWC, but it's radiused sides aid in feeding. Many 1911s are unable to feed WFN/SWC bullets, but my Kimber handled these just fine. These are extremely accurate. I was able to put three rounds through the same hole at 10 yards. Recoil is a bit stiff, but very manageable and not nearly as strong as the BB 230gr loads. Have not had the opportunity to test them in water or ballistics gel, but I would imagine they would easily perforate 24" or more.

*At one point, I was unable to chamber these in my Kimber. The feed ramp had become very dirty from 100 or so rounds of CCI Blazer and neither sling-shotting the slide or depressing the slide stop would chamber the round as it stuck on the feed ramp. A sharp slap to the rear of the slide did the job, and subsequent shots chambered with no hiccups. As with any ammunition, be sure it functions in your weapon before carrying it. I just wanted to note that it's possible that you will have trouble chambering the first of these but have no feeding problems beyond that. Just to check, I stripped the pistol and wiped the feed ramp clean and the issue was resolved, so be sure your feed ramp is clean when carrying this load.

Bear incidents are the last place you want to have to worry about reliability. I like revolvers and lever action rifles.

A solid 1911 is a very reliable handgun, proven in multiple wars and used by the FBI SWAT teams. That being said, can't argue with your choices either. My preference is a stainless synthetic 375 H&H bolt action ...

Lots of interesting reading here. Just for reference, here's what the real thing looks like, and how fast it happens:



The point being the OP, or anyone in the same situation, is going to have to be ready to act quick, if they get attacked.

The OP has a .45, and I'd agree with the hard cast suggestions, or a FMJ, if it won't feed a blunt hard cast.

But I'll also ask a question, if it's at sho'nuff bad breath range, what is the best target? that sloping forehead? Or maybe down the throat, hoping to bust the spine, or bust his jaw?

I'd aim for the nose, center mass cranium.

Over the years, the takeaway I always have when I view video footage of animal encounters is the speed and violence of the attack. If you truly do venture into places where bears, cougars or wolves (or coyotes or wild dogs) are a reality � you�d better be pretty boned up on your presentation skills. With some of the holster rigs I�ve seen touted as defensive appropriate, a lot of folks would be up their eyeballs in critter before they ever got their gun brought to bear.

I can only speak for myself as to where to aim, but it�s been my experience that no animal (or human) tolerates much gunfire directed to the face and eyes. I even heard one guide in Alaska say that he loaded the first round in his SG with #4 or #1 buckshot. He would direct that first round to the eyes/face as a momentary distraction with Brenneke slugs as a follow-up.

Putting a round in the mouth will take his mind off of eating that's for sure

Actually, I think a 250 LFN would be better; "better" being a subjective, paper "better"....

Alright boys and girls, I rummaged through the ammo bin and found a .45 ACP load that should offer satisfactory penetration.

I think that's inconsistent ... I don't think you can be prepared for griz with a .45 ACP. Mutually exclusive.

Couple thoughts come to mind. First, this morning's local news featured 2 grizzly bears that have been raised in a local animal rehab center. Those things are BIG. BIG BIG BIG. Second thing, we had a local bear hunter go after a wounded black bear with a 1911 .45 ACP a couple years ago. He got 4 shots into it before it got ahold of him. It worked him over but good. That was "just" a black bear and not a particularly large one at that.

You're kidding yourself packing a 1911 for the bears. If you want to pack a 1911, do it, but focus on ammo to protect yourself against the 2 legged varmints and leave the bears to your guardian angel. You're safer KNOWING you're not protected and being maximum careful than thinking you are protected when you are not.

Tom

The bullet/load is the most important part of the equation. A few years ago a frizz was killed in Denali park with a 45 ACP in defense of life and or property.

There are many bullets that are not up to the task that is for sure and for certain. The 255 grain hard cast as loaded by Buffalo Bore at 960 FPS has enough penetration to get the job done

This thread is awesome.



Travis

Yeah. I always carry my 9.3X62 when hiking Glacier. The best thing about it is it doesn't draw attention.



Travis

deflate, to rely on a handgun for protection one must be able to hit with it, those that can't believe that one can. They try to force their inabilities on others

Yeah, once you get into something more dangerous than police or military work, you need to go back to cowboy guns.

I hope nobody finds out I carry a .44 Special in bear country. They might think I'm suicidal.


Travis

Laughin' my ass off...

I think Mrs. Pine should stick to the Hunter's Campfire.


Travis

you make that sound bad...

Elmer used to carry one of those back in the day, so I think you get a pass on that.

It's just my misfortune that Jeff Cooper wasn't a rancher in Montana.

Here's an empty can of bear spray. Fell on a rock.



Good call on that choice of rifle. You've been a tremendous benefit to the OP's question. Hiking National Parks and the Model 71's go together like peas and carrots.


Travis

I read on the internet that the closer you are to the center of a city, the more effective the 45 ACP is.

Once you pass the last suburb, it becomes useless.

Hope this helps.


Travis

Damn, that was pretty hairy.

I'll have to admit there've been a few times when I've neglected to tie something down in the bed of a pickup.

Wonder if that warden knows he should have just given up and died because all he had was that .357???

You're only allowed to do that if you carry a .45 ACP.

No schit. I'd have had a Model 71 on left shoulder, an H&H slung over my right, and a Casull dangling from each hip.


Travis

Too freakin funny, you're killin me. Not with a 45 acp though, it just bruises.

Find it pretty hard to agree with that last statement.

It's about like telling a cop not to bother wearing body armor because armor makes him stupid and take unecessary chances, or telling someone not to wear a seat belt because they will drive better knowing they're at greater risk.

My god it worked


http://www.nationalparkstraveler.co...rs-denali-national-park-and-preserve5943



-----------------------------------------------------------------------


A grizzly bear that emerged from a thicket and charged two backpackers in the backcountry of Denali National Park and Preserve was shot and killed by one of the two who was carrying a .45-caliber semi-automatic pistol, according to park officials.

The killing Friday is believed to be the first instance of a hiker killing a grizzly in the park's wilderness. The killing occurred in the original Mount McKinley National Park portion of the Denali, which was expanded by two-thirds in 1980.

Until February, when Congress changed the rules, it was illegal to carry a loaded firearm in that portion of Denali. While the rule change now allows hikers to carry firearms in all areas of Denali, it still is illegal to discharge them, park officials said.

Park officials did not speculate whether the killing was justified. This is believed to be the first instance of a visitor to a national park killing an animal with a firearm since the gun regulations were changed.

According to a release from the park, the two backpackers, a man and woman, were hiking in dense brush along the edge of Tattler Creek, which is at the west end of Igloo Canyon roughly 35 miles from the park headquarters.

"The man, who was in the lead, drew a .45 caliber semi-automatic pistol when they heard a noise coming from the brush. When the bear emerged from the thicket and ran toward the other hiker, he fired approximately nine rounds in its general direction. The bear stopped, turned, and walked back into the brush, where it quickly disappeared from view," said the release.

The two then headed roughly 1.5 miles back to a road, where they encountered a park employee, who called in the incident and took the two backpackers to the Toklat Road Camp. A ranger there did a short preliminary interview with them at approximately 10:00 p.m. Because of the concern that a wounded bear was in the area, four backcountry units were immediately closed, and bus drivers were instructed to not drop off day hikers in the Igloo Canyon on Saturday.

"Early Saturday morning rangers and wildlife technicians flew to Toklat via helicopter to conduct a secondary interview with the two backpackers. Afterwards they flew over Tattler Creek and all of side tributaries, very low at times, to determine if there was an active, wounded bear," the park release said. "No bears were seen during the overflight, and late in the afternoon three rangers hiked into the site. The bear was found dead in a willow thicket approximately 100 feet from the pistol casings at approximately 6:00 p.m.

"The bear�s body was transported via helicopter to a landing site on the park road and brought back to headquarters on Sunday, where park wildlife biologists are assisting with the investigation of the bear carcass. The backcountry units have been reopened."

The case is still under investigation, and the names of the backpackers are not being released at this time. Park wildlife biologists and rangers are trying to determine if there was a justification for shooting the animal.

The estimated grizzly bear population in the park north of the Alaska Range north is 300-350 animals.

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That's impossible John, those bullets just get tangled in their fur. Absolutely zero penetration with that round.

Once again guys, no one on here is saying the 45 is ideal, but its better than nothing and with the right load will penetrate. Some of you guys need to do some of your own penetration tests to verify these things for yourselves. You would be amazed at the results. Like too much velocity hinders penetration. Load a hardcast flat meplat to the sweet spot and watch it go. Energy does not transfer to killing power. I find it amazing the amount of animals that were harvested back in the day with the 45 colt, the 45/70, the 450/400 ect... Animals must have evolved with bullet proof skin, they were obviously much easier to kill with the "light loads" before the invention of super velocity. Sheesh

+1����

The Denali hiker cheated, he didn't dump the magazine after four rounds.


But,


"...he fired approximately nine rounds in its general direction..."

Lord help those bears if they ever charge someone with a cool head, and even modest skills with a 1911 handgun.

They had to point that out, wonder if charges are pending against the guy.

Shhhh, don't anybody tell ppine that people actually used .357s and .45acp's to protect themselves from grizzlies, he might have a coronary. It just can't be so.

(Again, no one on this thread has said either is ideal. What they've said is if that's what you have, they will work with good bullets and proper shot placement.)

Hey, I hadn't considered that. Anything can fail. A premature discharge with a one shot wonder can be a problem.

And didn't Ron Burgundy shoot his eye out with that stuff?

Guess I better stick to pavement where I'm safe. In the city, they all fall to hardball, dontcha know.

I have a Colt 1911 and find it to be reliable. Several people have been talking about feeding problems with unusual ammo. When it comes to bear guns, there is no room for reliability issues.
Another reason most experienced bush people carry revolvers or rifles.

If I read your account of Denali correctly, the bear traveled 100 feet from where he was shot without anyone pressing him. So if you shoot a bear at close range, say 20 yards, or 60 feet he has plenty of time to keep coming, kill your ass and keep going before he dies.

You should do yourself a favor and shut the [bleep] up.


Travis

Laughin'. I think bear spray is good, but I was glad to have my handgun that day. I was a ways out from the "safe boundary" of a .45.



Travis

No, no, he makes a great point.

Now you have to wield "enough" handgun to DRT a bear.....no mention of placement....odd.

Yeah, maybe he should STFU...

Hawk,
thanks
Cheyenne,
I used to live in Laramie. What you call "cowboy guns" are the original military and police guns. Starting with the Colt 1873 peacemaker and the US Cavalry. Then the Colt Service Revolver in WWI. If it weren't for Browning's miraculous design military and police would still be shooting revolvers. Some of them still are.

This guy is a [bleep] genius.


Travis

He's well up in the running for the "Biggest Campfire douche of 2013" award, and we still have over 6 months for him to earn the title.

Must be tough going through life exacly 180 degrees off axis...

This thread is hilarious

the year is young

the technique is to empty your .45 in the general direction of the bruin
and then run as fast as you can, while screaming like a little girl!

There are some serious flaws in the studies you mention. You need to read the papers, and critique them with a researcher's perspective. The Herrero paper states clearly that a large proportion of the people using firearms for bear defense were hunting; they were moving quietly and were in close contact with the bears when the attack began, whereas the pepper spray attacks were for the most part at greater distances.

The ferocity of a bear attack when surprised at close quarters, and the difficulty in defending against it, is much greater than if the bear is encountered at a greater distance and is not "surprised" by the human(s) in question.

I'm not saying that pepper spray is not effective... it's demonstrably effective. But these studies are skewed in favor of the spray vs firearms by their failure to take into account other factors of the bear attacks.

If i had a pile of schit in one hand and ppines thoughts in the other. I would coddle the turd,as the return investment woukd be infinately higher in value

I think another facet of that is people will tend to be more proactive with spray and more reactive with firearms/deadly force.


Travis

Unquestionably. That's why I carry both.

There's also the unknowable factor... when you spray or shoot a charging bear, and you deter the attack, you have no idea whether it was a bluff charge or a real one.

I strongly suspect many bear attacks which are silenced through the use of a gun are not reported, due to fear of repercussion from the law.

Quite likely. I am fair certain that if I'd had to kill that black bear in the Swan Hills back in the 80's, I'd have kept my mouth shut. In that day in that jurisdiction, the consequences of turning myself in would have been catastrophic to my future hunting privileges.

I'd suggest any commercial loading that propels a bullet of a minimum 300 grains at about 1300 fps. Now all you need to do is scour the ammo catalogs to find the load you prefer.

That's a bit stiff for a 45 ACP ...

Might want to opt for a heavier spring in your rig...


Travis

Wouldnt a short barreled pump shotgun, maybe with a folding stock be a better choice?

I'm not even sure if the .45 Win magnum in an LAR Griz would make that kind of speed.

This subject has been pounded on for about all it's worth, but I'll throw my log on the fire. I settled on the 225gr TCFP from Laser Cast at 850fps. It's a cream puff to shoot, roughly dupes the standard 230gr ball load but with a small meplat rather than a round nose. Shot placement trumps most other considerations, so I'm willing to sacrifice some ballistics for more controllability and faster splits. IMO most of us are much more likely to run into some very bad people than we are bears angry enough to bring a fight. Since bad people (and wolves while we're on the subject) run in packs, I'm very content with the balance of power and mildness that the 45acp provides. If four-legged, toothed threats were completely off the table, I'd carry .230gr Gold Dot in the woods, but the 225gr TCs cover the bases a little better I think.

Yep

Way, way back at the start of the thread the OP mentioned he was headed to Glacier NP. NP meaning the bears may not be terribly afraid of people.

My "bear weekend" was a solo backpacking trip in King's Canyon NP. The first night I camped by a stream, with my food in a bearproof container, well away from the tent. The bear decided to paw my tent anyway at 2 am. After I quit screaming like a girl, I could hear him breathing outside the tent. He finally walked away.

The next day I stop at a nice meadow, talk to a guy, and tell him the story. He tells me he had a buddy who caught a mess of trout, cooked & ate them, then fell asleep beside the campfire - only to be wakened by a bear licking his face An hour later I'm setting my tent, and a cinnamon bear walks past 30-40 feet away, sniffs around, looks at me, and walks down the main trail.

The final day I'm headed back down the trail, hear footsteps, step aside, and meet a guy with four deep scratches across his face & neck. A little deeper, it would have killed him. The previous night the bear had taken possession of his pack, and charged him and knocked him down after he threw rocks at it.

These were of course all black bears, and they had little fear of people. I would expect a griz would be bolder if anything. So, take the bear spray, bright flashlights, umbrellas, whatever if you like, I'm not going anywhere in bear country, unless I've got a stout pistol, too.

When I bow hunted Moose in Alaska the shotgun was around but it wasn't always carried. On the other hand my .44 mag with proper hand loads was always on my side.

I used to live 20 mins from MacDonald Lake. My advice is stay away from Kintla Lake. I drove up there to camp in my 70s vintage Jeep Grand Wagoneer (a very long ride on all washboard dirt road unless it's changed). The grizzlies chased me out of there. Walked along the lake and the shore was covered with grizzly tracks. Asked a Glacier Park Ranger friend of mine about it when I got back and he laughed at me. He told me that's where they dropped off the problem grizzlies. I should've know better. That may have all changed it was 35 years ago, but maybe not ...

Well, the road hasn't changed much, if at all. Three years ago, I drove my Accord to Bowman Lake (along much of the same road) and it was as you described.

My choice if carry a semi auto pistol in Bear Country it would be my Glock 20 10 mm

Good choice. If a guy was to chart all of the requirements for a backwoods pistol, the lines would converge on a Glock 20.

I've been away for a while...didn't read all 8 pages...did anyone mention,

"...they ALL FALL to HARDBALL..."

...?

You want something heavy. Using Power Pistol I can get a 250gr hardcast at 1000 fps from a G21. Buffalo Bore does make a 255gr hardcast for the .45 ACP, but more than that, you can shoot .45 Super out of your 1911. You might want to put heavier (stiffer) springs in it, but it gives you more power than a regular .45 ACP.

While BB doesn't load the Super to it's full potential, their 255gr hardcast is showing to be doing 1075 fps. They also sell a 230gr FMJ FN @ 1100 fps, which would be good too. The good thing about that is that recoil won't be a whole lot more than regular .45 ACP.

I say a 480 Ruger with 400g bullets

Snake

^^^^^ This I would excel at!!!


Roy

Doing a little research on the 255 Buffalo Bore bullets and found this post. Thought it was interesting.


"I am a Bear hunting Guide in NH and have been using the buffalo bore 200 grain super loads for many years and have shot more than a dozen bears with this load never had a problem and all the bullets recovered penetrated deep and remained intact. last year I tried the 255 grain acp loads and killed 2 300lb bears with one shot a piece, both bears shot in the skull and exited the throat, shot distance was 5-10 ft. I've seen rifle bullets not exit. I was impressed."

Tom Parker

Roy

Nice! My Springfield V16 LongSlide built for the 45 Super should do really well with those loads. How do they feed?

No surprise here

kind of what I was thinking

Bears are a perfect excuse to buy a S&W 629 4" .44 Mag. Elmer got that one right.

He got a good bit more than that right too.