Seems to me over the last 10 years or so it been the trend. Guys hunting deer with 223's, elk with 243's ect.
What's your opinion are we using lighter calibers than in the past to hunt North American game with?

While we have far better bullets than in the past.. I think the majority of hunters still use more traditional calibers.. I like fooling with many calibers and often use the smaller ones for hunting big game, but when the chance could arise that I could spot a truly big buck, I will have one of my big game rifles in hand..

Agreed on bullets, but they've been very good for handloaders since the Partition. Premium bullets in factory are more recent.

Two new things are the wider spread prosperity to own and use several rifles and a change in hunting methods.

A generation or two ago it was pretty typical for even rather serious hunters to use single medium / big game rifle, and one for everything needs to be weighted toward the bigger game.

Feeders, cameras, food lots, and farm and ranch hunting have made some hunting be done in a much more controlled environment, allowing those hunting in it to not have to choose enough cartridge for the worst case scenario or even the best case of a mixed bag on the same hunt.

Very true.. I am sure all of these things have caused the surge in smaller weapons.. Maybe the shift from hunting public lands to private lands as you indicate is really an important factor..

A couple of random thoughts....

1) Better bullets so you can use smaller calibers

2) The average age of hunters going up, who have less tolerance for recoil

3) The trend toward ultralight rifles, which bump the shooter more given the same cartridge

Honestly, maybe it's a regional thing, but in deer and elk camps here mostly the guys still have 270, 30-06, 300WM and 7RM's, with an occasional 25-06, 308, or 338. Been the same for the last 35 years of my hunting.

Hunting deer with 223s is unethical and illegal in most places.


Isn't it?


And I would never use a .243 on elk.


More than a couple of times�...

Du to the glorification availed to people due to youtube videos - stunt shooters like ingwe abound now.

If I remember correctly, gravitational attraction is based upon mass, so I don't see how that would be possible.

Nothing new, my grandfather killed quit a few elk with a 243.

I see more of a trend towards people thinking they need more.

I don't know if it's a recent trend or just since people have learned that everything you hear on the internet isn't true. I seem to remember stories of all kinds of game taken with what some consider small, 243,257 Roberts, 257 Weatherby, calibers way back when they were first introduced.

When I was growing up folks in this part weren't too concerned about game regulations. Lots of people used the 22 LR for deer and were very successful, especially with the semi autos. They used them because they were poor people and only owned a 22 LR and a single barrel 12 ga for everything. They shot whatever presented itself with whatever they had handy. You see the same things with Eskimo people who shoot even polar bears with light calibers. I bet the 30/30 has killed more Elk historically than any other caliber.

It seems that when I first got on the web, the arm chair hunters all said you needed at least a 30-06 for deer and a 300 WM for Elk. Truth be told, I think the old hunters knew more about shot placement and tracking and were less concerned than we are today about DRT shots.

I have some smaller centerfires but have yet to kill anything with them. I've actually been moving toward bigger calibers lately.

R.H. I have know many of these guys who were truly poor and shot deer with .22's and shotguns.. If you talk to them long enough the number of cripples that were left to die a slow death is sicking.. They were interested in free food, not sport.. A couple I know are completely without conscience for an animals suffering.. In is common knowledge that the Eskimos shot bears with Hornets, but if they crippled a couple, well that was not a problem there were more.. These stories of old timers shooting game with smaller calibers were quite true.. BUT they were far better than the calibers they had during blackpowder days.. We seem to forget, yes they used .30-30's on elk, because a .30-30 shot flatter and was easier to hit with than a .44-40.. And it had more power also..

It's the new fad like 50mm scopes were in the 90's.

I wasn't advocating it, just speaking historically. I'm saying I don't think we are moving toward smaller calibers historically. I do however think the 223 and 243 are plenty for deer.

I agree, but the number of deer in some states and the conditions under which they are shot are also an important part of this move.. We have deer in places that had no deer years ago.. Plus shooting over food plots, private hunting grounds, long seasons are now pretty common.. Hunters in some areas can afford to be selective.. On public ground I might see a huge mulie or whitetail once in four or five years if that often.. I sure want something more than a .223..
Over the years, I hunted a lot in W. Va. At that time deer were thick as flees... They hunted over bait, or orchards.. It was not a matter of shooting a deer but which shall I select.. Big bucks were seldom seen.. I used .22's there quite often, and effectively.. I believe those are common conditions for many of todays hunters.. Nothing wrong with it.. But conditions under which I hunt in Wy. are far different.. I want more gun there, especially if there is a chance I will spot a big buck..

I suppose a great deal depends on the area you hunt and the guys you hunt with and or course what your hunting!
Ive been mostly hunting elk and mule deer,
when I started out theres zero question the 30/06 was the gold standard in our camp,but for several years in the 1980s the 7mm rem mag and 300 win mag had a strong following, but over the last 10-12 years I see more guys with the 35 whelen , 358 win and 30/06 than anything else Ive used a 340wby and a 375 H&H, mostly because I own and completely trust them, and see zero reason to change.
what has changed, is that I don,t hear story's of guys making long distance shots, as if its some huge accomplishment, but rather story,s of off hand shots made from under 30- 50 yards , with pride in getting in close first and placing the shot precisely

I rarely grab anything larger than 25 caliber to deer hunt with anymore. I have larger calibers, but I enjoy shooting the smaller calibers and feel more comfortable with them since I practice with them more. And I have proven to myself that even 22 calibers will kill our small whitetails, so why bother getting knocked around by the big guns?

I could hunt deer for the rest of my life with a 223AI and never feel handicapped.

In its day, the 30-30 was a smaller cartridge than most other of that era, but was an almost immediate success.

Most of the people who I have hunted with have used cartridges that exceeded the level necessary to kill the game hunted, but most of those people weren't the sort to practice and improve their shooting skills, so they were probably hoping that a larger more powerful cartridge would be a means by which to offset their lack of shooting/hunting skills. It usually didn't, but they shot up a few deer and punched a few tags.

Or so it seems to me.

Jeff

My buddy has his Grama's old Elk rifle, a Savage 99 in 250-3000. We use bigger guns.

Hunters have been graduating to smaller and faster rounds for well over a century. Folks used to use half inch round balls, which were supplanted by the big bore black powder cartridge rifles. On to 30-06s and the like, which are considered way large for deer these days. Steadily smaller and faster. Less recoil is never a bad thing.

Not all of us are gravitating toward smaller cartridges. I don't find the recoil of a .30-06 or even a magnum to be a big deal. I actually enjoy shooting the bigger stuff.

We're gravitating towards technology. I'm not specifically referring to components. Sure we have better powders and projectiles, but that's not what drives "us".

The "us" I'm referring to are the guys on this site, Sniper's Hide, etc. "Us" come here to learn and experiment through others, then ourselves. "Us" shoot more than most, more than the typical hunter.

The Internet has driven our desire to shoot and experiment. Smaller cartridges are easier on the shooter, therefore we shoot those cartridges more and gain confidence.

The game hasn't changed for the typical hunter, but it's changed for "us". Without technology, specifically the internet, the trend towards smaller cartridges for "us" would have been much slower.

Not seeing that at all in the circles I move in.

I never would have even considered using a 223 on deer before I discovered this forum. I think there is plenty of evidence that the smaller bores with good bullets get the job done. I'll be giving it a go myself. That said, I don't find 30-06/7 Mag recoil to be a problem so if it works well for you, why change a good thing other than just to try something different. I also believe that the AR platform being the hottest seller along with the less powerful chamberings has had a major impact on what is the cartridge hunters use.

Cartridge selection and recoil tolerance are not necessarily correlated. I can shoot a 300 WM without any issues, and have for many years, but I eventually expanded my rifle collection and wanted to try some new things. None of the cartridges I'm working with these days (.260, 6.5 Swede, .308, .270 etc) are more effective than my tried and true .300 WM, but they aren't necessarily lacking, either. I'm going to run the smaller cartridges this year to see how they perform and take it from there. Whitetails and antelope are the targeted game species, for what it's worth.

I've gone both directions from the centre -- the centre being the 30-06/303 British. I stepped up to a 300 Magnum first, and then a 45-70, and then a 405Win. Loved the way they shot. Then I returned to a 6.5 Swede, and I really like that one. I like the way it shoots, and I love the way that it kills regardless of the smaller numbers it generates. I find myself shooting the 45-70 lots with small charges of faster burning powders like AA5744 and Trail Boss for "plinking" (don't knock it till you try it )

My 300 Mag is a heavy weight at 11+ pounds, but easy to shoot. Tougher to carry as I get older. Most times, the 30-06 (standard weight) gets the nod for moose, and the 6.5 Swede gets the nod for deer. (T3 Tikka)

I like the monometal bullets (TSX) as they work well for me in the '06 and 300. Just working up a load for 120 and 130 TSX in the Swede. Expecting great things.

Even though I am not overly sensitive to recoil, I find I shoot the lighter recoiling rifles more the older I get. The 405 has pretty stout recoil even in a 9 pound rifle with my typical nose bleed rounds, so I have even backed them down a bit as well. I hope to try that one on moose this season.

Recent trend? I don't think so...been around for years.

The 7x57 and the 30-30 were around before the turn of the 20th Century.The 6.5 Swede not long after that,along with the 256 Newton,250 Savage,the 270 Winchester(killing everything from brown bear down since its inception)...the 257 Roberts in the 30's.The 6mm's were wildcatted in the (what,50's?) and gave us the 243 and the 6mm Remington,the 6.5 Rem Mag.The list goes on.

A guy named Sheldon was killing sheep and grizzlies with 6.5's in the early part of the 20th century;others named Caldwell and Corbett were killing tigers in Asia with the 250 Savage and the 7x57, to say nothing of the tons of African game up to elephant size killed with the 6.5's and 7x57.

All these cartridges and more were in widespread use(world wide) by the late 1960's. Most of the modern numbers hawked on the Internet today do nothing ballistically, than many of these older cartridges,and are nothing more than redesigns of these and other cartridges that were in widespread use and existence before the Internet was invented.


What has changed are better bullets, propellants,and much better and more advanced scopes....more abundant and cheaply made (affordable) rifles and actions to house the shorter rounds.

But people running around dusting grizzlies and elk with 243's and the ilk, is really nothing new.If you like to experiment along these lines, you're covering really old ground.People have been doing it for decades before.

If that is true somebody needs to tell my LGS. Most of the new guns they get in are .308, .30-06, and .300 Win mag. I had to have them special order a .270 Hawkeye for me because they don't carry Hawkeye 's in less than .30 cal. You can't find a new 7mm mag on the shelf there but they always have a 700 in .300 RUM on hand. The trend seems to be heading bigger to me.

Not so much in general but for deer I think there are a number of hunters that have for several reasons .

There are so many folks out there with AR type rifles that want to actually shoot them at something and lobbied until many of the minimum caliber laws have been repealed making it legal to use 22centerfires


It turned out that they worked fairly well and manufacturers began to notice and addressed some of the concerns by producing more robust bullets than the previous available varmint rounds

The ensuing results from the two elements above and the easy exchange of information via the internet have shown that it works and has convinced other to try.

The current preponderance of deer hunting opportunities have given hunters many more opportunities to collect many more deer in their lifetime than in past generations in much of the country. Hence they have more guns to try and with the multiple results it has become much more clear that we have in the past been using much more powerful weapons than really required to take deer.

Lots of kids get started with a .243 or a .223. Taking countless critters all over the world. Then when they reach 16 years old, an adult says "Now its time to step up to something bigger". Kinda like the "Leetle .243" doesn't kill as good as it once did.
Its nice to have a Killer Guard Dog and a variety of toys� Big and Small�.

Way off the mark. The proponents of smaller cartridges that I know wouldn't even consider these methods.

I think Shortaction nailed it.

When I show up in hunting camp with a 270 I am generally packing the smallest caliber there. In every hunting circle I have ever run in magnimitus has always been the current disease.

Shod

Look at the pussy pads sold on most rifles now, also soft recoil turkey,and magnum metallic rounds. A lot of people are pussies, simple as that

I've mentioned this before but my M99R 250 Savage came out of Wyoming where it's previous owner used it to feed his family. Quite a few elk fell to that rifle over the years, ol' Pete said he liked to get in close and shoot them in the neck with 117s. A partial box of those 117 Sierras came with the rifle. I loaded them up and found that at 100 yards this old 1-14" twist barrel keyholed them. No wonder he liked to get close. Lot's of those old timers weren't real gun savvy, but they managed to feed their families.

Funny thing is, for years I never really gave it much thought. Had my .270 bolt action and when I bought that I really wasn't all that fussy. Just got the rifle I liked best in a cartridge between .243 and 30-06. Then I got to thinking that a nice lever action would be handy in the thick stuff so I bought a Savage 99 in .308. I found this site just trying to figure out when my Savage was made. The more time I spend here the more I realize that maybe I should have just stayed with that .270, but what fun would that be?

I don't know if we should judge the rest of the world by the preferences posted here on the campfire...

Except for those guys who might have been injured in combat or during an athletic career...
You were painting with a pretty broad brush.

Nah, it's true OSU, you can judge a guy by the size of the cartridge he shoots. For many, it's called "compensation."

That's what I was getting at in my earlier post. Go to any hunting camp in my locale and you won't see many smaller cartridges. It's been that way for 30 years...

You'll see 7mags, 300 mags, 338's and 30-06's. The 270 is about the smallest thing you'll see and those guys get jazzed about it being marginal for whitetail deer.

Those guys don't shoot much, if any, during the year either. They fling a few at a paper plate a couple of days before season and call it good.

SAS nailed it. if there's a change, the internet is driving it. we can get online now and see the results that people are getting. when i was growing up all we had was gun magazines and anecdotal evidence about which cartridge "hit harder"

The converse is, the guys who are content with smaller cartridges seem to have one thing in common.

They shoot a lot.

The bullet that hits the vitals kills..a deer/elk hit at 100 yds with a well designed .243 bullet in the vitals is dead... A deer/elk hit in the hind with a 300 ultra mag is wounded. We had to over come poor designed bullets in the .243/6 mm class when they first came out,that left them with a bad rap for many years and is still entrenched in many peoples minds. If you can shoot a 6mm class rifle better and consistantly more accuratley but have trouble with magnum class rifles I would rather see a Deer/elk hit in the vitals with the 6mm(with good bullet). Larger caliber and Magnum will not make up for poor placement.

Good hunters get close as they can to their pray then take a shot.

While an 06 will do just about anything you need it to... for myself, I have found I really don't need it... where lighter calibers will do the same job...with less recoil

which has given me the opportunity to play with and adopt older traditional calibers...

If I stayed with one case type only, it would be based on the old 57 mm Mauser case... 6mm Rem, 6.5 x 57, and 7 x 57 will cover my non varmint hunting needs just fine..

There are better bullets available now.

Where I hunt and around the people I hunt with it's mostly a 30-06 or 270 conversation. A "boomer" is someone with a 7mm, very few 300 WM and VERY few short mags.

That's about it - nothing much above 30-06 and nothing much below 270.

My uncle uses a 250 Sav and my son uses a 243 but that's about it.

I shot a large bodied 8 pt whitetail at 258 yds in an open corn feild (Close as I could get, he poped up from a drainage ditch) with my Steyr L 6mm Rem. Bullet whent clear though rib cage and dropped him in his tracks. I dont think he would have dropped any faster with a 300 mag. Now could I pull that shot off with a heavy recoiling magnum ? probaly, but I shoot alot, I think if you can shoot a lighter caliber rifle much better than a larger caliber Magnum you should stick to the lighter caliber.

Yes, but sooner or later you are going to come up against a really large deer in an armored vehicle that is facing you at an undesirable angle. Then what are you going to do? (Please note the )

havn't run across that yet.

What many posters here are missing, is that the hunter who buys one rifle and calls it good is a really poor indicator of a trend. He will likely buy whatever his dad or granddad used, and go no further.

Another poor indicator are the posters here who are only one step into the "cartridge awakening". If you started out with a 270, then tried a 300 Mag, and never stepped down the caliber scale, it's hard to get a full view of what's going on here.

Until a person has really tried a wide variety of cartridges, or at least seen them used in the field, it's tough to get a good bead on what doesn't work.

In my experience, after guiding a bunch of hunters for deer, antelope, and elk, there are a few trends I've noticed with cartridge selection:

1. Hunters as a group are getting older. Which means their recoil tolerance is diminishing.

2. Around 20 lb. ft. of recoil is about all the average guy who doesn't shoot much can handle. Get above this number and performance will decrease, which can be seen in the field in the form of gut shot and lost game.

3.Those returning from military service will often use the military round of the time, as they are familiar with the weapon and know what it is capable of. This was seen after WWII with returning GIs, and can be seen today. I know of a whole bunch of vets returning from the GWOT who pack an AR-15, and use them quite effectively on game.

4. When I say bullets are getting better, I'm not talking about the Barnes TTSX. I'm saying bullets since the '50s are better than those from say, the '20s. Before Nosler Partitions, it was sort of worth listening to what guys like Elmer Keith had to say. Same thing with Ruark shooting a warthog in the azz with hollow points, then proclaiming the 220 Swift lacking. Unfortunately hunters are slow to learn, and take old weird advice like that to heart (Read: Savage 99).

5. The internet was by no means the beginning of small caliber usage. Growing up in Montana before the 'net, the 270 or 30-06 were considered a "Big Gun" for elk. Many, many deer and antelope were and still are shot with 22 caliber rifles every year. When someone showed up with a Magnum, they were pretty much laughed at, usually followed by a comment like "What are you hunting, Tyrannosaurus Rex "?

Why did this occur? Because local folks shot all year, and realized big stupid cartridges were loud, kicked too hard, and were simply unneeded. We had also been in on the "Magnum Rodeos", chasing wounded game around the hills, after some dude blew off a few legs and put a couple rounds through the guts and into the hillside around the animal. These same wounded animals were often finished off with 204s, 223s or 22-250s. Funny how that works.

What does all of this mean?
People go through cycles. Often start out with what Dad used. Usually work their way up due to the young man's testosterone fueled "Real men use big guns" mindset. Then work their way back down when they realize it's not needed. We are all at various points on this scale, depending on our experience and degree of rifle looneyness. Some folks find what works for them and quit there. That's fine. But one should really go through the full cycle, and observe what works for others, before declaring a hypothesis valid or otherwise.

Unless of course, you got out and used different cartridges yourself,above and below the 30/06 threshold, rather than depend on 3rd party information.

There is nothing new about small cartridges...lots of Internet chatter,but nothing new.

Agree with what prairie goat stated above in general. I saw the same things when I started hunting the west in the 70's and it was going on LONG before I got there.Those rifles,chambered for 243,6mm,257 Roberts,250 Savage,22-250,220 swift,270,etc etc,were rolling the deer,elk,bear and antelope a long time before I arrived....they looked well worn to me.

But if you hang around home to hunt, draw your cues from limited exposure and camps full of people with 300 and 338 magnums for deer sized game,the use of 6.5's,257's and 243's to kill BG animals may seem "new" and Internet driven, but aren't.Been going on for about 100 years.

There is a strong tendency for folks to believe every trend in shooting/hunting happened during their lifetime.They haven't,not all of them anyway.

My caliber range is .257 to .458 and I have dropped forever calibers below that as I hate cleaning rifles, Small bores infuriate me. After the .257 (which is a custom match grade barrel) is toast I will likely raise that cut off to 7mm.

I shoot a chrome lined 223 cal barrel and hardly ever clean it. A dead dear every time for 26 grains of powder and a 60 cent bullet.

I admit that the internet led me to this sin.

I'm assuming this is another shot at me...

I've been way up and down the cartridge scale. I also have family out west and am well aware of the smaller chamberings being used for years, both there and here.

I've not traveled to hunt a bunch. Most of my hunting is around home, but I've been on a few trips.

I shoot more than most and decided what I liked long ago. The internet didn't develop my opinions, my experiences guided my path. To say the internet hasn't influenced the opinions of some is ignorance, regardless of the topic.

It would be interesting to get some sales numbers over the last 20 years. That would be the true tale of a trend during the Internet time line. I'd be interested to see figures on die sales each year, component sales each year, ammunition sales each year and rifle sells each year. Those figures would tell the tale, then we could have intelligent conversations about "trends". Opinions could be compared to facts.

No. I wouldn't waste my time doing that.

No one said that the Internet does not influence people;you can get information from various sources.Some is reliable and some is not.



The central theme here seems to be whether there is a current trend to smaller calibers....I see it in target shooting.But it's nothing new in BG hunting and has been going on for years.

Exactly.

The same thing goes with long range hunting. While the availability of cheap, accurate laser range finders certainly helped things along, it is by no means a new sport. I was just reading an article from around 1970 on the 6.5-300 Weatherby, where the author lamented the poor long range bullet choices available for the round, which tended to blow up on game due to the high velocity.

Funny how so much of this shooting game is in no way new. I suspect if one traveled back in time to Wimbledon, circa 1875, much of what shooters discuss would vary little from the competitive range conversations of today.

I find the historical aspect and connection to the past in shooting to be quite interesting.

I just saw these numbers. I can't remember exactly where or what order they were in, but both rifles & dies had the same 5 cartridges and IIRC they were: 30-06, 308, 270, 300 WM, and 7 RM.

I am sure JB has seen this and can confirm.

My camp here in Michigan as well as my observations out west (which are admittedly not extensive) confirm those numbers. In my camps around home it's mostly 30-06 & 308. I use the lightest rifles in my group (6-250, 257 AI, 6.5x55) while the 30-06, 270, and 7 RM were most popular out west.

It's easy to think that everyone is "stunt shooting" like we are here when we hang around so often but that isn't what I've observed among non-loonies.

Guys will always figure out new ways to compare their dicks.

End of story....

this is not definitive but at least it is an indication of the most popular calibers.

drover

RCBS 2012 Top 10 Rifle Reloading Die Sales - By Chuck Hawks

Curious about the popularity of centerfire rifle cartridges among reloaders? There usually isn't a dramatic change from year to year; it is more like a glacial movement. Regardless, here is RCBS's 2012 sales list (first published in 2013) for their top 10 best selling rifle reloading die sets:
1..223 Remington
2..308 Winchester
3..30-06 Springfield
4..243 Winchester
5..270 Winchester
6..300 Winchester Magnum
7..22-250 Remington
8.7mm Remington Magnum
9..30-30 Winchester
10..25-06 Remington

Although missing the top 10, .338 Winchester Magnum remains the best selling of all medium bore cartridge reloading dies. The most interesting changes on this RCBS die sales list are the .308 surpassing the .30-06 as the number one big game hunting cartridge among reloaders and the .300 Win. Mag. passing the 7mm Rem. Mag. Since all .300 Magnums indisputably kick too hard for most hunters to handle without flinching, the latter is particularly deplorable.

Less surprising in this magnum oriented hunting climate is the decline of the .30-30, which has slid in reloading die sales over the last decade or so. (Of course, the .30-30 has always been a better seller in factory loaded ammunition than in reloading dies.) I regard this trend as unfortunate, as the .30-30 is all the cartridge most hunters will ever need and it kicks much less than the magnums, allowing more precise bullet placement.

I'd say #1 and #2 have a hell of a lot more to do with tacticool preppers and not big game hunting.

Not in this household.

I would rather go hunting for mule deer with a 308/155 Scenar than any 223 combo.


That said a 22-250 kicks ass.

What'd you bust that hawg with last year? Was it your 300 WSM (grin)

D, first buck deer with a 243!

190 yards, in 3-4' sage, took me 10-15 minutes to look where I thought it should be laying.
Got nervous, thought [bleep], shoulda just been shooting a 300WSM and it woulda been DRT....

I had walked around buck in a circle on the initial 'search' and didn't see it. Went back to where it 'should' be and it was there. Dropped at the shot, zero blood trail, perfect performance.



I'm still going back to the A7 300WSM this fall though just because.....grin

That was an awesome deer! Just having a little fun....

I'd love to spend more time out there hunting.

Dude, these cartridges discussions are always good...grin

Maybe not, but it wasnt long ago fellas were standing in line for $2k AR's....

I was thinking the same thing

When I first read the OP, my first thought was no way. It's the age of "western extreme", the long range hunter, you are a looooooooser if you aren't shooting a big boomer to a 1000. Then just reading the posts, I think it just depends on which site you are reading or most loyal to, will change or bend or mold your way of thinking.

There are ebbs and flows with everything. And people age and change.

I shot a .270 my whole bleeming life, killing all kinds of crap. It wasn't until I started reading hunting forums that I found out my core-lokts were garbage and my caliber was gay.

I don't think it is a recent trend. A good friend of mine has used a 22-250 since the late 70's. Some ranchers we hunted with in the early 80's considered our 270's big guns.

I started using a 22-250 when the internet experts said it can't/should/wouldn't be done. When I knew different and had to prove it to myself to have actual real world experience.

My last few acquisitions have been 404 Jeffery, 375 H&H, and a 300 H&H being built.

I am going to get a 1:9 222 built next, but am truly confused by the rifle twist thread. Think I may load it to 22 LR levels to get around the scalpers.

This is pretty much what I've been seeing from several deer leases - even since 2000 - and I began deer hunting in 1972.

Over the years I've seen some 243s, **NO 223s**, 1 - 250 Savage, 1- 25-06, NOBODY carrying a 257 Roberts, few 6mm Rems, etc. you get the idea. I'm the only hunter I know personally who owns or knows what a 6.5 Swede is. I've told and shown some people and they say " a what?".

Mostly NOW and then 270s, 30-30s, 308s, 06s, 7 Mags and 300 Mags. 1- 338 WM.

So the answer to the OP is- from posters here -

The only ones I know of/about going 'smaller' are on here, and

No they're about the same as it's been for years.

That's pretty much what I see too. Last year WI did away with the last of the deer shotgun zones. Several people inquired about what rifle/chambering I thought they should buy and every one of them already had 300 mag on the brain.

My gravitation toward smaller calibers results from getting older and knowing recoil isn't fun anymore.....

The closer you get to the east coast, the bigger the cartridge you need.



Travis

easier said than done. I was raised to think that anything less than a .270 is unethical on whitetails. Hunting clubs/landowners didn't even want me out on their land with a .243. Humorous in retrospect, but quite real at the time.

I want the most for least. Compare a 110 TTSX in a 270 vs a 120 TTSX in a 7mag. Aint far off......

I had the magumitis for a bit...as much as I like my .300 Win Mag, it don't kill anything any deader than my .270 and I'm pretty sure I could kill anything around here just as dead with a quarter bore, a 6mm or even a centerfire .22(I just haven't completely wrapped my head around the centerfire .22 yet, my dad has never liked anything smaller than a 6.5 for deer)

True, especially when theyre going west to hunt elk. Magnumitis runs rampant!

This is one of the reasons why I hate reading stuff from this Chuck Hawks guy. He doesn't even know what a medium bore is!

To the Op: Nah, I'm not seeing a trend of small calibers for hunting. But, I see more and more Assault Style rifles at the range. Which is probably why 1 & 2 are where they are at. The 223 & 22-250 is used here a lot by the varmint hunters. 243 is the smallest caliber allowed to hunt big game here & I see mostly kids & women shooting them. The 270, 7mm's, 06, 300 mags still rule here.

Funny how woman and children seem to kill critters with 243's,quite successfully.

I hope I'm wrong.

It sounds to me that you don't like the consensus of the answers to your OP??

I would guess they also wound a good many with the .243 also.. As some one pointed out, the.243 is for the expert, not the beginner.

One guy at our deer camp uses a 30-30 and a Savage M99 in 250 cause he likes lever actions. Rest are 270, 7mm, 308, 30-06s.

I don't see'em moving to the lighter calipers around here.

Yep

The smaller calibers are not for those whose hands sweat and shake when they see an animal.

I agree, but I still would use it for elk. But there are a lot who do. Ill bet theres just as many wounded from people shooting more gun than they can handle.

Youre wrong

I miss is a fuggin miss, regardless.......

And a schlep that can't shoot a 243 sure as hell won't do better with a 300WM

No kidding. If you can shoot you can kill a deer quite nicely with a 243, if you can't shoot a 375 ain't gonna help.

I got 99 problems and a caliber aint one.....

Sometimes I think the mind set on the fire is larger caliber compensates for poor marksmanship

If I had a kid, wife, etc., that wanted to get into shooting/hunting a 223-243-257 would be an excellent choice.

And after much practice shooting I still would not let them shoot at an animal further than 250-300 yards. The animal would also have to be stationary and a good rest available. That's pretty much how I was introduced into big-game hunting.

Speaking for myself if I was out hunting for deer horns I would prefer to have something like a 270 Winchester rather than a 223.
But that's just me and what I am comfortable with.

Use whatever you can shoot and makes you happy.

I like to think the mind set is more advanced than that.

But, would I take a 243 on an elk hunt?

Nope. No good reason to do so....I see little point in it.

Kinda like taking a 300 Mag deer for whitetails, eh...

Bob, I agree, I wouldn't choose the 243 either but many have done it successfully.
As to the mine set thing, you might be giving some too much credit

The mags are NOT needed for WTs, agreed.

However deer hunting w/300s or similar is GOOD practice before hunting Elk or other BIG game.

Yeah....or a Roberts, 25/06,270,280,7/08,7 mag,30/06,etc etc.....on and on it goes....it's all part of the educational process.

Assuming you are shooting 20 deer a day, I agree. Not sure how shooting one deer is GOOD practice.

Never said one!

We have a bag limit of 6 per year! More opportunities to carry and familiarize yourself with the particular rifle.

Let's not forget we have the FREEDOM & LIBERTY to hunt with what we CHOOSE!

Not really, but close.......

Guess I don't get it. I've had a zillion different rifles/actions. It don't take me a few weeks of lugging one around the field to familiarize myself with a rifle.

Whatever

I think deflave nailed it!

1tn: I know they kill deer...elk too.

But IMHO there are better elk cartridges.

Personally I would start it at 6.5mm,which may be arbitrary but a guy has to start somewhere,and that would be my own line in the sand.

As to giving credit....I'm an optimistic guy, liking to believe that any hunter has practiced enough to be proficient with whatever he carries,a marksman wth his rifle.....which we know will make up for a lot of cartridge power.

That said,there are a lot of experienced 300 magnum shooters who can actually shoot well...I know a few.Some even post here

Or maybe we actually worked for a living and got worn out.

After one or two rotator cuff repairs and onset of arthritis, pussy pads are a godsend.

I killed my first mule deer with a 22-250 nearly forty years ago. I do not think internet forums had much to do with my choice.

I carried a 30-06 for many years and used it on everything from ground squirrels to elk. I don't carry an '06 any more, simply because I had loaded every bullet known to man in it and there was no more experimentation left with that round.

Today I would carry a 260 or my 264 for deer. For Elk I will not go with anything smaller than my 7mm STW, but I expect to have to shoot 400 yds with either species.

Range influences my choice as the STW generally has the more velocity at 400 yds than the 7-08 does at 100 yds.

As to the general public moving towards smaller rifles to hunt with. I do not believe that to be the case. We who populate this site or Sniper's Hide are not indicative of what the general public does. The general public still grabs the 270 or the 30-06 or the 30-30 out from the back of the closet, buys a box of whatever cartridges are on sale at the hardware store, and they go out and kill schit.

I've seen way more deer wounded by guys slingin' magnums than I have from anyone using a 243. The "more wounding with smaller chamberings" mantra gets old quick, when you actually see what happens in the field.

Consider that most men who intend to load for the 30-30 already have dies. With Marlin quality going to total crap the last year and the ridiculous price tag coupled with the scarcity of a new Model 94 Win. People are not buying many new 30-30's, even if Dad and Grandpa had one and they really had their heart set on it.

I'll be hunting with a BAR Safari II in 243 with 80 gr. TTSX ammo next deer season. This is the first 243 that I've owned and can't wait to put it into action.
I also like my 25-06 and 7mm-08 for deer here in Alabama.
I've used 300s and 7mm Rem. Mags but they stay in the safe now that I'm getting older.
I bought a 270 WSM last month and will use it in our big cutover some but the 243 is going to see the most use next season.

I hear the old crap about mag.s crippling game.. The best deer hunters I knew both shot 'em.. And they hunted by stalking, stand hunting, and making two and three man mini drives.. Both were deadly shots.. The worst crippler of game I ever knew by choice shot a .243 or 6mm.. Every year he shot off legs, hit deer in the guts, and after a couple cripples, he would finally manage to find one.. He last deal was shooting at bull elk twenty one times with his trusty 6.. It was getting away, so he used his last round to shoot at a spike, which he hit behind the ear.. The 6 pt ran over the hill out of sight, and dropped.. The spike was out of his area by just a small margin.. Fortunately the game warden saw the whole event from the rim.. And the clown was fined and lost his license for five years or so.. Shooting little calibers does not make you and excellent shot, or super hunter.. I shot game with every thing from 22 lr though the .375 H & H and .45-70. I used medium and small bores at times.. But when the chips were down and I needed and elk or deer for the freeze, I took the flattest shooting hardest hitting rifle I owned.. Many times it filled the tag, when the guy with a .30-06 stood around and said too far for me..

Well, I'm not so sure.....you guys are looking at a few NR hunters.

Back here you rarely, if ever, see a guy during deer/bear/moose season toting a 300 or 7mm magnum.If he does it's usually a novelty move to try something "different".At least that's what I see in Maine, NH, and Vermont and after 40+ years hunting here, I can't recall a single hunter carrying a 300 or 338 magnum....we're as "far east" as you can get.

Go into any big gun store back here and its obvious what everyone is shooting....the Federal and Fusion ammo stocks consist largely of 243,30-30,308,30/06,7/08,6.5x55,270,....standard case stuff is what sells. 223 ammo flies off the shelves.Big Boomer stuff moves slowly.

Up in Alberta, Sask, and Manitoba I have mostly brought a 270...the natives thought it was "little". They hold tags each year for deer,elk, moose,bear, and hunt in grizz country...the most common rifles I see are 300 magnums and 338's...."works on everything" they say.The most experienced and successful western trophy hunters I personally know shoot 7mm magnums.

Folks in ranch country, state side,I notice, use smaller rifles....they shoot a lot,carry rifles in trucks year round for vermin and plinking. When I first went to Montana, the rancher used a 22-250;another in Wyoming used mostly a 250 Savage and 257 Roberts on everything up to elk.One cowboy I know loved the 300 Weatherby...others the 338,the 264,and yet another the 7 Rem Mag.These have been Colorado, Wyoming,Montana,and New Mexico folks.

I gave my rancher friend a Rem 700 270MR; after several animals,he found it "better" on elk and the big mule deer he like to hunt. I found a good deal on a M70 300 win mag in Rawlins,bought it,left it at the ranch, and he used it on several elk,including a couple of nice 6x6's. He also has shot elk with a 7mm STW.

His impartial observation (no ballistic ax to grind on the internet)was that the 270 was a quantum step up over the little 250;and that while the 270 certainly kills elk just fine, the 300 Winchester flat hammers them.....of course, Bill can shoot,which is the real issue that escapes a lot of people.

So I find it pretty hard to generalize about people's rifle preferences based on what part of the country they come from.

And I was going to take my sako 75 in 22-250 out for a spell next weekend alongside the '06 and 7-08???
I will make sure I shoot the little deer like fallow with the 22-250 and let the big boys come out when I have the 7mm/30 cal in my hands!!!.............somehow deer don't read these forums......

I am confident I can place the shot as required with the 22 cal....so all is good!!
Gus

Nowadays, I see more 223's/243's/260's/7-08's in this part of the world than just about anything else. Magnums are certainly in the minority and always have been.

Reason being kids are taught to shoot at an early age in this part of the world, so their Dad's have selected mild cartridges.

Same goes for wives... who have started hunting in droves since the 80's.

Most gent's that shoot/hunt also own several rifles and have had small/medium calibers in their arsenals for several decades - the 25-06 being quite popular since it became a factory offering.

Of course, the Bubbas' with 4 foot lift kits on their pickups still like shooting magnums on crowded public land - and magnums do make sense when hunting bean fields or Power line right of ways.

For some reason, many people outside the South just envision tangled forests & swamps, without realizing much of it is agricultural and long shots have been a big part of hunting here for eons.

Blanket statements and guessing is nothing new here though.

Not here.

I took his statement as when eastern hunters go west to hunt they need bigger calibers than the guys that live and hunt in the west.

Yes.

And I also find that if I tell a rancher in Montana I shot a mule deer with a .223 or 22-250, they usually reply with "That'll do it" or "Nice job."

But if I say that to somebody from MN, or Georgia, their eyes go cross-eyed and they'll repeatedly ask "A .223?!??! Really?!?!!?"


Travis

And its true. I've seen guys around here argue that the .300 Win mag is not enough for western elk and recommend the .300 Weatherby.

1tn: Sure,some of that goes on.But like I said if you poll a lot of western elk hunters you will find as much divergence of opinion on what constitutes a good elk cartridge as you find on here.

Not all western elk hunters shoot little rifles...far from it.

When we were kids(25 years ago), my dad had a good ol' hired man who was really into rifles and hunting. Melvin grew up in an era of 'slim pickens' and was a meat hunter first and foremost.

He had the luxury of patience and being pretty choosy in his shots.

His choice of rifle for everything(including Breaks cow elk...)?

Why nothing less than the number one choice for eastern Montana ranch/truck guns, the mighty 22-250!


Naturally when I was 12 or 13 years old, and could legally hunt big-game, my dad bought me a M70 in 22-250.

Shot several deer and antelope with it and never had a problem(55 grain soft points). Of course a long shot back then was still way less than 300 yards.


We still have the rifle along a couple boxes of handloads that Melvin brewed up.

I've lived east, I've lived west, I've lived in the middle and I've even lived in that schitty part of Mexico that they refer to as Texas.

You'll find different preferences or opinions everywhere, but I'd be pretty hard pressed to find somebody around here that will jump up and down give a schit about a cartridge or tell you what cartridge won't work.


Travis

Melvin sounds cool.



Travis

As someone once said, spring black bear season is never not funny when the DSMF's arrive with their 375 and the ilk and shoot 4 1/2' bears.

It's JOC being vindicated. Thats what's happening. And a good thing it is, too.

7x57 is a big'un and the .270 is still gay.

.30-06 Springfield is where its at -if you want to include the big bears. Grancel Fitz had it right.

So does that make hunting the west with a 270 a small caliber and gay?

22-250 and 243's were the norm here while i was growing up, and still are.

Back in the 90's when there were lots of deer/elk in the area we'd get many depredation permits..My cull rifle was always a 22-250,even for elk. Just cows tho, pretty big difference between shooting a cow and a mature bull.

thats another trend around here when someone asks what to use for elk, we get gobs of pic's of 250lb cows "so and so bullet/cart drt this 'nice'cow"(they are always nice, for some reason)

270's and 30-06's are the common denominator everywhere. I still find humor in the 270 being "gay" as it's the cartridge that many are compared to.

You can go up and down with bullets in a 270 and have plenty of rifle for anything in NA.

Ha! True!

Sammer, back in the mid 1950's when my father was flying for Lynch's out of Billings, he visited quite a few ranches, dropping mail and groceries in the winter, or picking up a rancher for a trip to who-knows-where.

Anyway, he said there was generally a LARGE mule deer on the wall of the house, and when he'd ask what it was shot with, the answer was invariably "220 Swift."

Things don't change much in Eastern Montana... except that trucks are now 4wheel drive, and the 22-250 has replaced the Swift!

Well, and more people have phones too

Be it heavy or light, It's not what you shoot, but how well you shoot it.

All the rest is just mouth.

After shooting lots of deer with either .243(smallest legal caliber here), 7mm-08, .308 or .30-06, my personal gravitation has been to shooting deer with cool "old traditional lever guns".

It's what makes me happy!



YMMV

I've hunted with a lot of guys through the years that used .243's. It never struck me that their guns were as effective as my .30-06 all other comparisons being equal. I've never killed anything with the cartridge myself but felt I saw enough to form an opinion.

In what way was the 243 not as effective as the '06?

I recall a number of times during deer drives where the .243 guy wasn't sure if he hit or missed. We'd find blood (or not if he missed) and work out the trail usually finding the deer. I can't remember ever wondering if I hit a deer or not with my '06. I'd now whether it was DRT or ran off that I connected.

So the 243 didn't work great when the hunter missed the deer. Very interesting.

I didn't say that. Re-read it.

PG,

I think he is saying a 30-06 usually leaves a larger mark.

And there is some truth to that.

Your post doesn't make a whole helluva lot of sense. The deer shot with the 243 died. So what's the problem?

My posts sometimes have that problem. Sorry about that. What I was trying to say is that a killing shot, wasn't always as immediately apparent (or as instantaneously), with a .243 as a .30-06. Just speaking from what I've seen.

The deer is the determining factor more than the caliber. I've shot them with a 7 mag and they never showed any indications of being hit until they dropped 50 yards later. I've shot them with smaller calibers and they dropped DRT. I've had some run off when hit and you couldn't tell they were even shot and some do a flip even when hit in nearly the same spot with the same gun and load.

The .243 works. I don't question that. I just never seen it do anything to win me over from my .270 and .30-06.

Ok, makes sense.

If you want to see DRT performance, shoot for bone. It works just fine with a 243.

I know what you mean about the .243win versus the 30-06, as I've used both. I've often said that I'd probably have no problems hunting smaller chamberings and softer bullets if my hunting areas were open. Blood trails aren't as important and you can often see the animal fall after a death-run. Here where I hunt, there are a few open areas here and there, such as pastures or pipeline ROW's, but thick cover is generally nearby. I've been hunting here for 25 years and have seen one deer make a typical 30-40yd death run that didn't wind up in cover. It was in the middle of a large pasture.

I've killed deer with .22 and 6mm centerfires and gotten mostly decent results, but I know that their limitations regarding typical blood trails on non-CNS or non-shoulder shots will likely make my tracking job harder than say a 270win, 7mm-08, or 30-06. Our bucks aren't usually out in open areas and don't give us lots of time for a good shot presentation. You have to take what is offered and take it quickly. The slightly larger chamberings offer a bit better odds of a quick/easy retrieval as compared to the little rifles. Bear in mind, this is "on average". I've seen .22cal TSX bullets leave a lovely blood trail and I've seen 7mm softpoints leave me very little to go by. Day in, day out, the .27cal to .30cal offerings still have an advantage for my hunting style in my area. That being said, I still like the smaller chamberings and don't mind hunting in such a "handicapped" manner when the mood strikes me....... (grin)

Not that it's at all relevant to the OP, or any of the discussions here, other than this; but I can not fathom why anyone would push deer, to posters, offering a very low %, moving or running shot ?

Just my .02 !

Deer drives are very common in PA. Some folks will hunt no other way!

Damn the mystical bullet voodoo......

Because in some places, deer go nocturnal during hunting season, hiding in extremely thick cover during the day. They do not have to leave this cover to drink or even eat, in many cases. I'm talking about cover where you couldn't see a deer if it were 10 yards in front of you. Dogs or men driving deer into a more open area is about the best option, short of baiting and spotlights.

Oh, you mean like up here in the boreal forests ?

That's what spot & stalk hunting is all about.

Again, no intention to inflame, just my opinions.

I've never seen the boreal forest in person, but from seeing it on tv and in pictures, it doesn't even begin to compare with how thick brush can grow down south. There is pretty much no way you could spot, and much less stalk, a deer in some of the areas down here.

btw.. I am envious of you guys who live in areas where spot and stalk is the primary hunting method. It looks like it would be a ton of fun.

99, Deer drives are very or were very common in states like Pa. I know one large group that still hunts this way.. While visiting relatives this fall, I ran into them driving by the place I was staying. there were 10 or 12 of them.. To a man they all had Rem. pump action rifles scoped.. I would guess all were .30-06's.. This style of hunting is fading due to the large tracts of posted ground, and the move to elevated house like stands.. The stand hunters seem to shoot bolt action rifles in .270 or 06.. In this area, long range shooting has been popular for 70 years or more.. Not all but many of the long range shooters use some type of magnum, range finder, and very high powered scope.. I would say this type of shooting is becoming more popular each year.. In the country Mike is talking about it is difficult to still hunt much of the country or spot and stalk, due to posted ground.. This has been occurring at a very rapid rate since the late 90's.

Nope! Sticking to my Bees!

PDR,

Yes it is, but you certainly have to earn your rewards !

Thanks for taking the time to explain the how & why.

There is some drive hunting up here, but I think shotguns are used mostly as a safety precaution

While the 25 man crews aren't to as common as they once were we still have alot of small crews putting on drives. It's still very common. Most of the rest of the country can't comprehend to what degree the orange army descends on Penns woods. I've never seen it anywhere else.

I somewhat succeeded (I apologized BTW) in hijacking a thread on this subject in another thread, so this looks like a good place to ask you guys.....Let's say you've drawn the tag of your lifetime, for me probably AZ Strip muleys or desert bighorn. Anyway, you get the idea....are you headed out the door with your .223, 22-250, or would you rather have a 7mag/30-06? Let's be honest here.

Deflave, I can understand you being pissed that you got your azz tossed out of the great state of Texas bro! You can come visit me.

I'd want the BG rifle/scope combination I had the most confidence in, as far as hitting where I was pointing. That has little to do with headstamp.

That wasn't the question. Even if it was a .223? It actually does have lots to do with headstamp doesn't it?

I know which one I'm grabbing.

Well, since I don't own a 223 or 22-250.....

My choice would be the SAME if I did.

That's why I said "BG rifle." I don't hunt big game with .223's. The rifles I have the most confidence in right now are a .308, 7-08, and 6.5-06, because they all shoot where I'm aiming out to farther than I have any business shooting.

I have a 7 mag., .30-06, .300 Wby, and so on. They're not as accurate as the others. So they'd stay home despite the "better" headstamp.

For larger animals, and the hunt of a lifetime I may think differently, but your question was on deer and sheep.

JG, I see you point and agree completely.. When guys talk about ranchers or farmers shooting deer or elk with small calibers that is not the same as a guy going on a hunt for a special animal or even a hunt of limited durations.. We have shot many head of game with the .22's though 25's.. No doubt in my mind if I am going for a big mulie or sheep, they will rest in the safe.. I might only get one chance, and I want to make the most of it..
I have a ranching friend who has shot many elk with a .222.. But they were in Aug. in his hay field.. Another has knocked off even more with his .243, but they were shot off his hay stacks in the winter from his bedroom window.. Most of this stuff happened years ago..
Personally, I have seen the .24's and 25's give less than satisfactory performance on probably ten head of big game.. Usually, at ranges of 200 yards plus.. Yes, I found the game, but just because I found the deer or antelope, doesn't mean in my book the caliber did a suitable job..

I'm not bitter.

Not the first buncha gals I had to let down.

Thank you for the invite.



Travis

Boolits matter farrrrrrrrr more than headstamps,despite the Imagination and Pretend of The Hay Bale & Crockett Faction.

Though of course...poor poor stupid [bleep] JG could dangle a few barbed-wire pics and elaborate upon why she is such an amazingly clueless [bleep]. That despite her Imagination preparing her for the Pretend requisite,to "think" she has a [bleep] clue in the first place. Laffin'!

Funny schit!

The ONLY people who "think" killing Critters is difficult,is them who ain't killed many Critters. On pins & needles waiting for someone to "tell" me all about boolits too!(grin)

Joe Average and The Paper Hat Brigade,ain't a barometer of much of anything,despite perpetually doing their "best" to convince themselves otherwise.

Much to their chagrin,good boolits,in good locations,reliably do GREAT things.

Hint

I've had the same experiences, more with bullets than cartridge.

Just because you killed the game and recovered it/them does NOT mean the cartridge OR bullet performed properly.

+ 2

There ya have it!

[quote=Boxer]Boolits matter farrrrrrrrr more than headstamps,despite the Imagination and Pretend of The Hay Bale & Crockett Faction.

Though of course...poor poor stupid [bleep] JG could dangle a few barbed-wire pics and elaborate upon why she is such an amazingly clueless [bleep]. That despite her Imagination preparing her for the Pretend requisite,to "think" she has a [bleep] clue in the first place. Laffin'!

Funny schit!

___________________________________________________________________________________

Boxer:

Its been a while, but now I find one of your stupid posts. JG, is a good guy and
he does know what he is talking about.

Have you been out picking up those rotten salmon along the river, and cooking them
up in your nightly stew? Those things are not good for you and will give you
headaches.

By the way, I have seen the words DRT on this thread, what does that mean?

Femboy1,

It's your Imagination,Pretend with it however you please.

I'll feign my "surprise",that even someone as [bleep] as stupid as you...KNOWS better than to try and discuss anything in regards to The Rifle. Congratulations?!?

JG is a blathering clueless [bleep],who's "experience" is encompassed in barbed-wire and gates. Now I would not disparage the inherent hilarity,of that poor poor stupid [bleep]'s sheer and utter cluelessness,or your's. Laffin'!

Feel free to "tell" me all about Feeshin',should you think you'd fare better there in that genre. Laffin'!

Kudos for having the keen "intellect",to be oblivious to DRT too. Looking forward to another of your Whines and added compilation of the amazingly long list of things you do not know. Laffin'!

WOW +P+!

Boxer:

I am sorry I responded to your post.

You seem to be an angry little man, and I do hope you can get some help.

Dead Right There.



P

Femboy1,

Sweetie...you were sorry,long before the response. Congratulations?!?

Prolly an exceedingly GOOD [bleep] call,to run away from ALL things The Rifle and Feeshin' to boot. Laffin'!

Looking forward to your next Whine and more Pretend,as you perpetually talk out your ass,in regards to the things you know the least about. I'd tell you to simply shut the [bleep] up and take notes,but you are too stupid to even do that "much".

Here's to the hilarity of your "best"...being soooooooo far offa the mark. Laffin'!

Bless your heart.










'seller,

Yes...she certainly is.(grin)

I've enjoyed reading this thread the last few days. Too bad the site's official "turd in the punchbowl" has decided to show up and ruin it for everyone.

+1. The dude is a pooh boy.

The 270 and 30-06 are just boring. They simply work. Any that says they are gay or do not work are FOS. Simple as that.

An appropriate bullet in the right place solves a lot of problems, and ends a lot of discussions.

TATE',

Hell...I reckon I enjoy your Whining,[bleep] nearly as much as you do. You poor poor clueless kchunt. Laffin'!

Fortunately for all,there really ain't much,that you won't Whine about. Congratulations?!?! I'll feign my "surprise",that as per your usual,you went wayyyyyy outta your way to skirt all things The Rifle and go right to Whining instead. Laffin'!

Personally,I'm looking forward to your next Whine and mebbe some more fascinating Tales of all the things you almost did,with all the wares you almost had and from all the places you've almost been. Laffin'!

Just how loud is your Imagination,when you shoot it?!?

Bless your heart.










'hunter,

Ain't it a fascinating constant,that you Clueless Kchunts first reaction is to start cramming things in your mouth and ass?!?

Perhaps you and TATE' oughtta swap PM's and align your Axis Of Imagination and really extoll on your Pretend,in unison? Show no mercy,with the collaboration of your collective "experience" and "results". Laffin'!

I'm crying I'm laughing so hard!!

You "hard chargers" are a [bleep] RIOT!










'S,

There is nothing inherently redeeming in either the 270 or '06,save as donor hulls for the good stuff. No reason to barge outta another closet. Laffin'!

I read in F&S,that boolits do in fact matter more than a leetle...'course one would only know that,by flingin' more than a few.

Hint.

Thanks Farmboy, same to 'ya. Like you, it's not worth the time or effort corresponding with that loser. He's too short, drunk, and broke to hunt with me anyway.

The only animals, I've had to seriously track to recover, where nothing to do with bullet or cartridge inadequacies.

They were simply bad shots on my part ! "The nut behind the bolt".

Think I may be the first person on this forum to ever admit that !

AMEN. + 1 to that.

99, I have shot several antelope with 24's and 25's that were hit in the lungs.. I remember one doe drinking at a little pond.. She was quiet, I put a 100 grain Core loke through both lungs.. She bolted and ran across the prairie for about 200-250 yards.. She was dead on her feet, it was easy to follow the path she took, but there was little if any blood the first hundred yards... Then a few drops.. As I remember, she never did bleed very much.. Now because she was in sight the whole time, it was not a problem.. But a friend and I were hunting and she shot a buck with the .243 about the same place.. He was standing on a small hill.. At the shot, he ran over the hill out of sight.. It was late in the evening, with little blood to follow they looked til dark.. No antelope.. Next morning they found what the coyotes had left.. It was a good shot, but not enough blood for a good trail.. Placement is important, but what you put there is also important.. The rest is just mouth..

You had a bullet failure there, not a cartridge failure.

I've seen the same darned thing happen with '06s, 7mm Mags, and a bunch of other rounds. If you're shooting crappy bullets, it doesn't really matter what you use. If you want DRT performance, shoot for bone. JFC people, this isn't that complicated.

prairie goat, the bullet went the completely though.. I have had this experience more that several times with my 243's and 25's.. Mostly beyond 200 yards, this was the only one that acted this way on a close shot.. I admit a bone shot is a killer, that is mostly what I go for, but to me there is more than placement to consider when shooting game..
Oddly, I have never had this type of experience when shooting .22 calibers.. Most of the big game I shot with a .22 cal was with the .22-250 class of rifle.. But we also used the Hornet, .223 and 222. They always worked fine.. But with each shot I kind of held my breath. I was not certain of the out come.. I also never had an animal run like the one mentioned.. One of my favorite bullets was the old 55 grain Serria HPBT.. When I shot most of my game with the .22 calibers, I was hunting areas with lots of game, and I was under no pressure to take a risky shot..
It seems to me this is something folks don't consider when discussing caliber. In Montana with a 5 or 6 week deer season, you are probably under no pressure to take a marginal shot.. Same in Texas, or Alabama or other states.. Not all folks have that season.. I love fooling with all calibers.. In the future I am sure I will shoot some game with my .22's, but I would probably not carry my .22-250 as my only rifle when mule deer hunting.. I don't see enough truly big bucks to not want to take any reasonable shot.. I don't want to cripple an animal of any kind..
To me it is too simple just to say placement is the key.. It is important.. But what you put there is important also.. I have never had this kind of experience with a 7mm caliber or above..
Maybe others have, I know crazy things happen when a guy is shooting.. I also know you have reasons for your ideas also.. I can't look at it as a bullet failure when I did have an exit.. BUT I AM SURE IF I HAD MADE A HIGH SHOULDER SHOT SHE WOULD HAVE DROPPED ON THE SPOT.. NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT.. It has come to be my favorite shot..

No, you're not the only one. I snuck up to within 15 freaking yards of a huge 190" muley buck, and completely whiffed 5 times, from 40-300 yds, with a 7mag.

WCH,

I agree with Prairie G's comment above, re bullet failure, not cartridge inadequacy.

Curious, though, you go on to say you & a friend (She), shot an antelope, started tracking & then you say; "THEY looked till dark".

1 question & one more observation/opinion.

Why did you/THEY stop looking at dark ?

Afternoon hunt, surely you/they were equipped with flash lights, GPS, compass etc, needed for an end of day/evening recovery !

As to finding what was left of the animal the next morning, after the coyotes had had at it all night, I'd opine that it would be pretty hard to tell that it was the "good shot" you described.

Yep, schidt happens, I'd just rather we manned up & owned up to our part in it, than blame the tools.

99, the animal was not totally destroyed.. but ruined to the point it was not recoverable.. They did search after dark.. But you must realize in that part of the country, blood does not show up on the rocky soil like in the leaf covered forests of the east. I know these folks and they gave it their best.. the country behind the little hill, was a vast sage covered flat.. I believe this was a 100 grain Rem. factory also.. To me it is just too simply to say placement is all it takes, if so, why not a .22 lr?????

It's all cool, man !

I have a really bad habit of "playing the devil's advocate" !

Sounds like a possible pencil through. Bullets do weird things sometimes.

I have a very similar experience as yours, but it involves a 270 win. with 130 grn core-lokts.

There is not a doubt that could have happened, but I have had these experiences several times with my 243, 6mm, 250 Sav., 257 Roberts, the .25-06 and even the .257 Wea. BUT most were at longer distances when the bullet had cooled of considerably.. Animals were well hit, lungs usually, and ran an extremely long distance from the area where they were hit.. Never lost one.. I still have the .243, 25-06 and 250 Sav. Mostly they give fine performance.. But my faith in them has slipped..

What bullets were you shooting? High lung shots?

99, not a problem.. some of the stuff that happens when a guy is hunting or shooting is unbelievable.. I have a couple friends who love the .243 for whitetails.. To my knowledge, they haven't had many bad experiences with then.. Most of the failures I mentioned were in the 1980's.. Not all but most.. Things have certainly changed since that time.. But when a guy has a failure, and you are sure you did your part, it is tough to forget it..

prairie, yes for the most part you are right.. But one antelope took 3 100 grain Hornadys about the bottom of the lungs and never reacted.. He finally walked down the hill in to a little draw.. I was certain I was doing my part. Had a dead rest, all three bullets could have been covered with the palm of my hand.. Those could have penciled also.. That was over 40 years ago, and I did not look as closely at the wounds and bullet performance as I have in the last 30... I had at least one bad experience with a 100 grain Speer on an antelope, but it was at least 300 yrds. the bullet exited about the size of a nickle.. With the 257 Bee it was a 100 grain BTBT.. The ones I mention either ran and awful long way 200-250 yards, or in the case of the Speer, the antelope doe mingled in with a herd, and it was impossible to determine which I had shot.. That doe was on her feet for more that 5 minutes.. My wife timed it. I don't think I ever shot a game animal at over two hundred yards with my .22 cal. rifles, that could be why the success with them, and less than satisfactory performance with the others.. I don't know.. Maybe I have a jinx as far as those calibers..

I edited this OUT, aka deleted, to replace it with one more specific.

Just for clarity, the edit section said it was too late to delete.

This response was the one I was responding to in the one I deleted.



Here P G was responding to WyoCoHu and I agree.

There IS such a thing as 'bullet failure' even with 'proper' bullet placement.

I know the difference. Over the years I've had my share of poor bullet placements AND other occasions I've had poor bullet performance = bullet failure.

This little guy?

Laffin'

[/quote]


No, you're not the only one. I snuck up to within 15 freaking yards of a huge 190" muley buck, and completely whiffed 5 times, from 40-300 yds, with a 7mag. [/quote]

My grandpa always said "There's a lotta room around 'em."


P

What did you Do Nothing Day Dreaming Dumb [bleep] almost do today?

Laffin'!

You "hard chargers" are a [bleep] riot and the hour meters aboard your couchbound kchunts,is only surpassed by all the rounds you didn't shoot.

Bless your hearts.

Laffin'!

I did some fishin'. Caught a short one first cast.

SuperKchunt,

You cain't even not catch you. Bless your heart.

Not that I don't enjoy your Whine,Imagination and Excuses.

Mebbe tomorrow will be the day,you pry your kchunt from the couch and shoot something other than your Pretend?!?

Nawwwwww...THAT ain't in the cards.

Laffin'!

Not me�I've gravitated toward big and slow i.e. 358 Win, 9.3x62 and 45-70.

wch,

Hit your space bar once in a while. It would make your posts a lot easier to read.

Like this...

Didn't hurt a bit.

Thanks!

'B,

Don't find anything in that to take a hint from. hint

Now, your thread on headspace, kissing and finding pressure had some validity. It actually applies to all headstamps and chambers.

You stated earlier that headstamps don't matter much. But then you already knew that.

If you are feeling the need for you or any of your cartridges to barge out of the closet, have at it.

'S,

Imitation is THE most sincere form of Flattery.

Hint.

I get it,that you don't get...thus the hint.

Hint.

In fairness,I've prolly better than a barge load of cartridges,which will certainly get you crashing through yet another closet.

Hint.

Funny how it actually works.

Hint.

Laffin'!

Not imitating, just conversing in your preferred dialect of the English language.

Getting sidetracked with the whole closet thing. Something you want to tell us? It's OK, the truth will set you free. Hint

I get IT, way more than you think. No hints there, self explanatory. If you don't get it, can't help you.

1flier, hey will give it a try!! But I am pretty old to learn news

stuff...

CRS,

It's your Imagination,Pretend with it however you please. I'm digging your Excuses and the Whine...though "surprisingly" you's skirtin' all things The Rifle. Didn't intend to horn you up,but one couldn't slight your taste in men. Bless your heart,you are really doing "great". Laffin'!

Kudos for the inherent humor,of your having enough Imagination to Pretend that you 'think" you've a first [bleep] clue.

Now that schit IS funny! Someone who "knows" as "much" as you,is always gonna fare better by asking questions,instead of giving "answers". Not that I don't enjoy the hilarity of your "best" efforts. Laffin'!

LOVE the avatar,mebbe expound a smidge?!?

Re-laffin'!










'flier,

Not all of us can have total and complete mastery of Engleesh.

Boxer,

Believe me, I get it.

I am not horned up BTW, keep patting yourself back though, if it makes you feel good.

You talk about closets, headstamps don't matter, suitable bullets, rifles, attack people, etc. You keep on thinking you have it all figured out. Or to put it in your vernacular for easier comprehension. "pretending you have a [bleep] clue" your words not mine.

I do not hesitate to ask questions, because I do not know it all. And when I do ask questions, I ask people that I respect, and have more knowledge and experience than myself.

My avatar is self explanatory, what would like me to expound on?

It is humorous, thank you for the entertainment

'S,

You don't even believe you and for exceedingly well founded reasons,that couldn't be slighted. Laffin'!

Again..weren't my intent to horn you up,but your good taste in men ain't to be slighted. Congratulations?!? Hilariouser than [bleep],that granting you enough slack on the rope to expound upon your Dumbfhukktitude,is "perceived" as an "attack"?!? THAT is [bleep] funy! Sweetheart...ONLY you,can keep YOU,from saying something [bleep] stupid and here's to the inherent hilarity of your being powerless in that refrain. You go girl!

What might you Whine about next? Looking forward to even more Excuses. Laffin'!

No doubt the cartoon Avatar is awesome and ain't it plum fascinatin',that it's the Mantra of you Do Nothing Day Dreaming Dumbfhukkers,to really go Full Tilt with your cartoons? Laffin'!

Here,I'll happily fuel your Imagination,if only to bolster your Pretend and to getcha' a step closer to things that ain't animated. Pun prolly be [bleep] intended to boot. Hint. Laffin'!



REALLY enjoyed the notion,that your being a Perpetual Dumbfhukk is anyone's "fault",but your's. Laffin'!

Should your Imagination and/or Pretend grant you the Delusion that I'm "mistaken",please cite same and I'll happily take the time to rub your nose further in your incredible [bleep] Stupidity.

Don't slight the magnitude of the humor. Whatcha' gonna "tell" folks about next?!? Mebbe hang a picture of you and your crossed-eyes and really knock it out of The Park. I'll feign my "surprise" that ALL things the rifle,continue to get an exceedingly wide berth,from you. Laffin'!

Laffin'!

Where do you incredibly clueless [bleep] come from?

Wow +P+!

You poor dumb [bleep] make it difficult to tie new Riggin' and stoke new reels,when I'm laughing this hard.



In fairness,you'll wanna skirt the SS yarn,it's schit. Though that too is over your pointy [bleep] head and tinfoil hat,go ahead and thank me later.

Laffin'!

This about explains it for me. Although I didn't read much further than this. I started with an '06 and have ended with one. I owned and shot a bunch more up to 458WM and down to the .223. I settled on the 30-'06 because it does all that I want it to do and all I'd ever care to do. Most importantly because I'm cheap and so is the '06. You can find brass at any gun range, anneal it, clean it up and shoot it accurately. .30 cal bullets suitable for deer hunting can be found just about anywhere and so can a usable powder. I've loaded it up and down the spectrum from slow hard cast slugs for killing junk in the trapline to heavy hard hitting 200-220's and hot running 150's for stretching it's legs. Will smaller rounds work and do just as well? Yup, I've done just as well with the .223 and 50-55 gr slugs. Are we starting to use smaller diameter rounds as a whole. Depends on your definition of "starting" and "we". It's a good thing if "we" are. Nothing will ruin a new shooter/hunter quicker than heavy recoil and muzzle blast. One could do just fine with a well tuned .22 or 6mm for most all NA hunting near and far.

Boxer,
Now we are on to bear crap and fishing, adding to the distraction. So you happen to live in an area that has a good bear and salmon population, and your point is....

You are right, it is not that difficult. Well maybe it is, at least having a mature internet discussion.

Please keep expounding on how nobody knows anything. Please keep expounding on the eggspurt you are. The more you talk.....

Thanks for the humor.

SuperKchunt,

Always a treat to be regaled with your cartoons and plagiarized pics.

Here lemme fuel the fires of your Imagination,if only to bolster your Pretend.



What didja' almost do yesterday and even funnier yet...what are you almost gonna do today? Mebbe you've a BWT planned to boot?!? Laffin'!

You "hard chargers" are a [bleep] riot!










'S,

LOVE the Whine and the Excuses! Congratulations?!?

I reckon it is more than a whole bunch daunting for you...to muse anything 'bout Huntin',Feeshin' or The Rifle. GREAT call instead,to skirt them thangs and go right the [bleep] to your Whine instead. Laffin'!

You poor poor clueless [bleep].

if one looks at ammo availability in the store, the obvious conclusion is we continue to use the same standard rounds (7mmremmag, 30-06, 270 win, etc) we have used in previous decades. while there is more .223 ammo and a better selection of same in the store, i attribute that to the very large numbers of ar's sold in the past 2 years, as in 223 ammo bought buy new ar owners who just want something to shoot. i don't think we are gravitating toward smaller cartridges at all. perhaps some see a small trend based upon some posters, but if you look at the ammo wmt has available or sold, the standard rounds are still king. jmo.

I am the one skirting? Seems to me that you are the one going off subject.

That's funny! Thanks for the laugh tonight.

'soup,

Who'd want an AR?!?



Boolits matter more than headstamps.

Hint.













'S,

No doubt,you're doing "great".

Your Whine is increasing in pitch,Excuses are constant...and you wouldn't touch The Rifle or anything Outdoors with a 10' pole. Laffin'!

I wonder why that is?!?

Laffin'!

Those deer have the best colored antlers of any animal that sports head gear.

Would like to get one some day.

Never noticed.




Though I do prefer the 75 A-Max kissin' found pressure in a bolt,to the 75HPBT leapin' in a Krunchenticker...especially at longer range.

Gotta love the 30-'06.

Laffin'!

Nice deer, always liked the clown paint job.

Yeah, I don't know anything about traditional bows, rifles, shooting or hunting. I've never caught a fish either.

That's funny!

Since I got started in 1982, I've seen more elk wounded and lost after being shot with a .243 than possibly/probably all other cartridges combined. Granted that the sample size is fairly small, it has definitely affected how I feel about using small diameter cartridges for elk.

Stouter, heavy-for-caliber bullets alleviate my concerns somewhat but not entirely. I still think a .243 is a better elk gun in the hands of an experienced hunter with good shooting skills than a youngster new to the game. If I had a young person starting out I'd probably hand them my .257 Roberts stoked with 120g A-Frames at +P velocities or get them a .260 Remington, 7mm-08 or .308 Winchester. In long actions a .25-06 or .270 Winchester would be my choice.

For myself, I started out with a 7mm RM and was fat, dumb and happy for 20+ years. Once the kids were gone I started branching out - first to a Marlin lever in .375 Win, then another in .45-70. Then to bolt guns in .300WM, .30-06 and most recently a .338WM. They all work. This year I'll be using a .30-06 for no other reason than Dad gave me one and it remains a virgin.

Her job may have Daughter #1 moving back to Colorado later this year. She used my .257 Roberts to good effect on antelope last year and is hooked on hunting. If she comes back it is a near certainty that she'll want to hunt elk in 2015. If she wants to use the .257 Roberts with 120g A-Frames for elk I'm OK with that but would rather she choose one of my .30-06s stuffed with 150g AccuBonds.

There are lots of loads that will bring down elk. Any centerfire round will do so with proper placement, blah, blah, but there is a definite progression in effectivity given equally marginal placement and/or lengthening ranges. Bullet design plays a big part in terminal effectiveness as does retained velocity and mass. A .22 Hornet on its best day is not the equivalent of a .223 Rem with 62g Barnes TTSX. Nor can any .223 match a .257 Roberts with a 120g Partition. For a you-can-only-have-one-for-the-rest-of-your-life hunting scenario, I'd take a 7m-08, .270 Win, .280 Rem, 7mm RM, .30-06, or .300WM over any of them.

Some people claim hydraulic shock has no lasting effect but I disagree. Poke a hole in a prairie dog (or water jug or watermelon or whatever) with a .22LR, blow one to bits with a .22-250 and similar placement and then answer what made the difference given both bullets had the same initial diameter and mass. A few years back I set up a couple sawhorses, laid a strip of 3/8" plywood on top, lined up some water jugs and started to play. The first jug was lined up on a leading corner of the plywood. I took the first shot with my .45-70 hunting load (350g North Fork @ 2180fps). Not only did a bunch of jugs blow up, hydraulic pressure from the first jug blew a hole in the plywood the size of the jug's bottom. In addition, the downward force broke the sawhorse. Placement is primary but when things start to go south I want a bullet with enough retained velocity and energy and frontal area to cause a very large pressure wave - one that can accelerate flesh well beyond its limits of elasticity - resulting in a more massive permanent wound. No, that doesn't mean I'm only willing to use a .375 RUM but I don't want a .243 Win either.

+1

I've really fallen in love w/ my 6-250 & 95 gr VLDs w/ same POI as 87 VMax. Also my 223 is getting more & more attention from my boys & me. I plan to AI it & have the throat cut to a dummy, and am building another for my 9 yo to take deer hunting here & feral pig hunting next January.

Good stuff; fun times!

'S,

Your insecurities are very WELL founded. Congratulations?!? Laffin'!

Sucking my ass ain't gonna pry your kchunt from the couch.

Hint.

Laffin'!










'Hunter,

I've seem farrrrrrrr more woes with Boomers,than all others combined. Boolits matter far more than headstamps and I'd be curious to hear about the particulars of the boolits,that you saw fall short on Critters. As well as their location,if only because I hear through the grapevine,that .243" boolits will reliably crush shoulders.

Funny that you mention the Hornet. I've got one that goes back long prior to the 223 being invented,let alone X's and it's killed a barge load of Brown Bears,by a gent who knew how to use it.

Funny how it actually works.

I've never played Saw Horses & Water Bottles,but it really sounds convincing.

Laffin'!










efw,

You boys is gonna talk me into Hunting something other than my 30-'06,yet.(grin)

The last 5 rifles I bought only one was smaller than .270.

Here are the 5.
1).FN Mauser .270 Winchester.
2) Pre '64 Winchester M 70 Featherweight .30-06.
3) Sako Vixen .222 Rmington.
4) Winchester M 70 .300 Win Mag RMEF Shot Show special 2014.
5) Pre '64 Winchester M 70 .300 H&H.

Some here may be going smaller,but not me.

It remains fascinating to me,that you Window Lickers remain of the opinion,that counting Safe Queens is a means of R&D. Funny schit!

I know,I know..you [bleep] near shot one of 'em and the other nearly suffered a safe ding. That was close!

Laffin'!

That's funny schidt right there!!

Notice I said nice deer, not congratulations. I could have done without psuedo tacticool hunter and sandpaper in the outhouse persona polluting the image.

My preference for the clown paint job comes from the truckloads of fish I have caught on plugs such painted.

You keep on pretending you have a clue about me. Sorry to disappoint, but I am not a tacticool hunter wannabe.

Funny.

He needs to pretend he has a clue, period! Must say, he does have himself fooled.

I do kinda love the little guy though.

Laffin'

There are two quite clear trends (amongst the gun loonies) going on in my neck of the woods:

1)towards smaller calibres and high ballistic coeffiecients - particularly towards the 6.5mm cartridges

2)towards bigger calibres launching light for calibre monolithics at very high velocities - probably the 9.3 x 62 being the current fad, but the Whelen and 8x57 also getting a look in.

Some forums have an ignore feature where you can just ignore
some types who just like to troll the forum.

Boxer would qualify for me, there is not one thing I have found him post has been useful for any sportsman on the forum.

If you agree, just report and notify this post.

Farmboy,

Just click on his name to get the drop down menu, then go view his profile. There is a tab on his profile page named "ignore this user". It works great.

Tate:

Thanks for that.

No more Boxer for me. What a loser, he is gone.

I'm going to have to disagree. Boxer knows his stuff and he posts lots of useful stuff. I've picked up a good bit off him. He really has a wealth of information even though his delivery is crude.

I agree

Otoh I don't know many that can't do just what he does, its easy. And not have to listen to the little man syndrome vulgarity.

I don't care how useful your info is, if you are a POS, I'm not going to waste my time.

Long as he is happy, thats all that counts. I sure hope his wife and family are good with him.

But that doesn't mean folks should suffer his mouth. For a bit of info thats all out there in other legible and sane/non vulgar posts.

Maybe so. But is imaginary pretend ignore really the answer? Laffin.

You like that stuff, good for you.

I have not seen one useful post from him. And I have been around here for a while.

Just some vile stuff, and his posts are all about Boxer.

Laffin.

'stud,

I've seen me paint purty peectures.

Laffin'!











SuperKchunt,

If only to fuel your Imagination and to bolster your Pretend,I wanted to make sure you had all my pics in "your" Photobucket account. Laffin'!



As per always,feel free to cite you were there and gunned the frame. Laffin'!

You "hard chargers" are a [bleep] riot!










dhg,

1) some folks actually shoot

2) then there's all the others

Never has been tough to cypher.(grin)

Hint.










Femboy1,

WoooHoooo...the "dreaded" full blowed Imaginary Pretend Ignore?!?

And you were doing so "well'" too. Laffin'!

You poor poor Stupid Kchunt,who dresses you in the morning and chews your food for you?!?

Bless your heart,you tinfoil hatted dumbfhukk.

Only YOU,can keep YOU,from saying something [bleep] STUPID. Here's to the innate ability for you to be powerless in the refrain,then feeling compelled to Vagina Monologue your couchbound kchunt.

Laffin'!

Looking forward to your next Whine,more Excuses and another expose on how your incredible Stupidity is someone else's "fault".

Perhaps consider hitting the Silent Dog Whistle with another 90PSI blast,to REALLY summons The Paper Hat Brigade and orchestrate a daring "strategic rescue" of your alarming Estrogen Levels. Laffin'!

Don't [bleep] up and reply,as it'll diminish your Imaginary Pretend Ignore,despite the hilarity of it's transparency. Though of course someone might Reply to this via Quote and you'll have more Pretend to Imagine,that you can't Ignore.

You poor poor stupid [bleep].











TAINT,

I'll feign my "surprise" yet again,that you's more than a whole [bleep] bunch afeared of ALL things The Rifle.

Hell,you were doing "great" too.

Laffin'!










Dooshmike,

I reliably connect dots and ring the bell,with an uncanny connect percentage.

Funny how it actually works.

Hint.










1tn,

I'm rather at ease in musin' water under the bridge and will happily grant ALL the slack on the rope,that the Do Nothing Dumbfhukks wish to take.

I'm afforded the luxury,of not being forced to guess...and much to their chagrin. Why the amazingly [bleep] stupid pin-headed dumbfhukks wish to Imagine and Pretend,is beyond me,but I seriously dig the oblivious humor of their doing their "BEST".

Funny schit +P+!










rost',

No need to reiterate for the jazillionth time,that you are an incredibly slowwwwwwww "learner". Sweetie...that ain't no [bleep] "secret".

Someone who "knows" as "much" as you,is always gonna fare better when shutting the [bleep] up,taking notes and applying same.

Thank me later.

Hint.

And I will forgive anything so long as I get more pictures to view.

Ha! I laughed so hard reading that I started to cry. LOL!
I really can't remember the last time I laughed this hard. +P+

Poor little guy barely makes it to the window of his own truck. That and baldness clearly explain your insecurities.

Sorry, I didn't realize it was this bad for you. Explains much about the way you are.

Cliff Clavin + Napoleon = Our own beloved Bozo!

+
=

SuperKchunt,

I enjoy your Imagination and Pretend,almost as much as you do. There's alotta reasons why you gotta "live" vicariously and plagiarize your Outdoors "experience"(s). Laffin'!

Do tell...what didja' almost "do" Today?!? Laffin'!

Cheer up...the Mail was especially generous today and your ship has come in.



You'll prolly wanna upgrade "your" Photobucket Account to at least "Pro"...if not "Pro +P+".

I'm crying I'm laughing soooooo hard,you poor poor Do Nothing Day Dreaming Kchunt.

Bless your heart.










TAINT,





Very much looking forward,to what your Imagination enables you to Pretend about next...you poor poor stupid kchunt.

Laffin'!

Box', Is that the guy from "Deadliest Catch"?

Now that is funny right there!

Laffin!

It sure as schit looks like Phil Harris from the Corneila Marie.

Isn't he the one that died?

Yup

I dig the patch Boxer!!!!!!

That might possibly go viral, the counter punch to the smiley face "Have a nice day" logo!!!!!!

This thread

Dooshmike,

That's Captain Phil,of course.

He's Good People.










'375,

You've zero [bleep] inkling,to the depths of the humor...mainly because you haven't the faculties to savvy.

Just sayin'.

Laffin'!










1tn,

Looks ain't deceivin'.










'guy,

Oh it's quite a bit [bleep] funnier than that.(grin)

For lotsa reasons...that fly over pointy heads.

Laffin'!

The Paper Hat Brigade needs their Imagination and Pretend,for more than quite a [bleep] few reasons.

Keep in mind of course,that Femboy1 is reading this and doing her best not to reply. Not that she could do anything but Whine and pitch another Hissy Fit,which is poignantly poetic.

Laffin'!

I do note however,that the 'Brigade gave up on ALL things The Rifle,for some know reason(s).

Bless their hearts.

LOL

I see feelings are getting hurt,so I have reported this thread to John Burns...Hang in there guys

Thanks Rosc. My feelers were hurt. I nearly blew the silent dog whistle to summon the paper hat brigade for a daring rescue!

Cheere up...at least you [bleep] ain't having to suffer our schit weather,here along The Milford. Took me 3hrs to shovel the snow outta the driveway and visibility is nil,as of minutes ago.



It's rough!

I wonder how many drinks you had to buy those guys to get them to act like your friends and get your pic snapped with them.

That is sooooo you to post that hoping all the Fire guys will think that's cool.

SuperKchunt,

Be sure to put the image in "your" Photobucket account and if it helps your insecurities,feel free to say you were there and gunned the frame.

Laffin'!

I know...I know,you came REAL close to prying your kchunt from the couch,today.

Bless your heart,you Do Nothing Day Dreaming Dumbfhukk.

Laffin'!

I haven't spent much time on the couch, not since the Olympics when your hockey team took home aluminum.

Working for a living will keep you busy and out of the bars where you spend your days rubbin' elbows with "movie stars". You'll see a lot of street cred in your village with that pic.

'cub, That there is a 'small' problem in his head is only obvious.

He's kinda like the toy you got for Christmas. It does the same thing over & over till you get bored and forget it for a while only to get it out later for old time sake.

OTOH ..... here's a thought.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth..._y_o_prosecuted_for_being_an#Post8736594

SuperKchunt,

I know you gotta "live" vicariously...because you sure as [bleep] cain't pry your kchunt from the couch. Laffin'!

Do tell about "working" and "all" the stuff you get to "do".

Laffin'!










Klik,

Ever figure out a 700...you incredibly stupid [bleep]?!?

Always a hoot,when The Paper Hat Brigade gets to chimin' in.

What are you gals gonna use for today's excuses?!?

Laffin'!









(Addendum: for yet another Whining Kchunt)

rost',

"Your buddy" said exactly what about Phil? Please use all the Imagination and Pretend you can muster,to talk even further out your clueless ass.

Bless your heart.

You "hard chargers" are a [bleep] riot!

My buddy says they run into those guys all the time at bars... says they are mostly arrogant dicks. Figures.

You're having beautiful weather and its pouring here and will be for the next four days they say. Go figure.


At least I got in a 20 round "range session" with the .270 yesterday before the rain set in.

Omg! Ive never laughed so hard in my whole life.

Dude, I went out and measured my truck to where your head wouldve met, you are what 3' 3" tall. Ha ha a midget.

Over the years, I have not seen the need for a big magnum. Personally I am going toward the smaller ones. I do have a 9.3X62, and that will be my big rifle. My hunting is mostly deer, so a 6.5 is all I need. Had several magnums in the past, now they are gone. Still have the 300 H&H pre-64 that was willed to me, that one will stay around for sentimental reasons.

Dooshmike,


Yesterday was hideous too.



[bleep] up and forgot a landscape today.













'way,

WTF is with the POS in the avatar? How in the [bleep] did you lose a bet big enough?!? Do tell.

Points awarded for a Pavement Pounding Story,or a bitchin' picture of a street light. Groovin' on your Imagination and Pretend.

Laffin'!

Where do you Clueless [bleep] come from?

Wow.










'jrd,

1) Placement
2) Boolits
3) Headstamp

Hint.

The douchebag to the left of Botcher in this pic is a drug addict. A total loser.


Botcher,

You ever let your kids shoot big bucks? Those Sitkas score what? 105 tops? And thats great! For the species they are trophys..

Here's one for ya. 95 pounds of boned out meat. I was gonna let this one walk waiting for the kid to plow it.

Straight up Blacktail..

I wouldnt pose in a picture with that worthless [bleep] if you paid me to..

You ever come through Southwest Washington? Let me know. I'll gladly teach ya some manners. And then I'll carry you into the bar and buy you a drink. "Joint manipulation" is a favorite. But I feel sorry for midgets so I'll take it easy on ya..

Shag,

You poor poor Whining Kchunt...you are doing "great".

Wow! That Buck is HUGE. Laffin'! You sure do "know" a "lot" about this Outdoors stuff. Laffin'! Mebbe you'll go FULL Retard again and "tell" me about The Rifle and such too. Laffin'! I mean your Feeshin' Gear expose was rather [bleep] awesome. Laffin'!



I enjoy you Stupid [bleep]'s Imagination and Pretend,nearly as much as you do. Whattya figure to Whine about next and where do you figure the next round of Excuses will take you?!?

More "bounty"? You "do" almost as "much" in a year,as I do an afternoon...'course I'm being rather generous,if only to fuel your Imagination further. Congratulations?!?

Laffin'!

How late does your roommate(Mother),usually let you stay up and look at pictures?!?

I'm crying,I'm laughing so hard!!! Knock it out of the [bleep] Park and mention what you do for a "living" again. Laffin'!

The drugs ain't doin' you no favors Toots.

Just sayin'.

The body on that Blacktail had more meat on it than either of these Washington whitetails. I didn't end up living life with a view like this on Welfare.

Shag,

My bad. What is it that you do for a "living",to be able to "afford" mounts of that "quality"?!? Laffin'! Did your Mom "pay" for the "work"? Laffin'!



You are doing "great".

You poor poor amazingly Stupid Kchunt.

Wow +P+.

That's a great Blacktail and the two Whitetail are not bad either.


A Desert Mule Deer killed in Nov. 2009



A better pic of the antlers.

Whoa! Shag- Nice WA WT.

Yes they are, despite the typical comments of the Oompa-Loompa.

Now you guys are talking my language... love those blacktail, especially those Sitkas with orange.

Good job letting the youngster bag that buck Shag. Like the litter-mate to the little guy I shot last year, except across the Big C from you. Decent buck, but not worthy of a mount. 7-08 took his head clean off

Still looking for a heavy 20" typical on the coast...

Jason

Regarding the OP's original question...

When I was a youngster I remember my Gramps telling me about the 22-250 and 220 Swift being used for deer during the Depression-era. They still liked their aught-sixes though.

boxers family portrait.

Can you guess which is him?

I tell myself I've fully recovered from magnumitis, but then I started counting

6.5 WSM
7 mag
7 STW
300 H&H
300 Win Mag
325 WSM
338 RUM





and darn if a Rem. 700 Classic in 300 Weatherby follow me home the other day.



Whoever owned it before me magna-ported it, bedded it and did a trigger job. Even thought to put a scope on it. No WAMs, but ya' can't have everything.



Think I'll go burn a little powder.




That way if any LR dinos show up at the "Petting Zoo", I'll be ready.


Best,

GWB

GWB that is a beautiful 300.. Can't wait to hear how it shoots. Great rifle though.

GeeDub,IMR-7828 and a 200 gr Nosler Partition is the combo I use in my .300 Wby.

Loading

180 gr. ballistic tips and partitions over rl-19 and IMR7828

200 gr Accubonds over RL22.


Will load up several 200 grainers over 7828 now that you mention it.

Best,

GWB

For the 180's,H-1000 worked very well. IF you have any.

bump for the heigth challenged....oh hell....the challenged.

That has got to be Boxer on the right.

Bingo!,

we got us a winner.

Thats him in his mid 20's

Wrong,

221 posts in six days?

Ya' need to pick up the pace a little.

I can remember a time when B could do 300 posts in a 24 hour period, with pix no less.

Best,

GWB

If only post count correlated to heigth.

Boxer must not have seen your "family portrait" yet. I'm sure he'll have plenty to say.