Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles The dreaded 2 and one

We had all bared that cross. Favorite rifle shoots 2 in one hole one away ruining a great group. No, it is NOT barrel heat in this situation!

What causes it and how do you fix it? short of rebarreling that is. Optics tight and top of the line!

Nothing touches the barrel between the lug and forward pressure point.

What say you

Got a Tikka that does exactly that. After all the talk about how accurate they are, it has me about ready to sell it. Ideas?

Correct inch lbs on stock screws?

"he had all bared hat cross." WTF?



IMO ( I could be wrong), if you gotta use a torque wrench on a hunting rifle - get rid of the rifle, or rebed it and get rid of the torque wrench.

Remove the forward pressure point would be my first option, and , equally, making sure the receiver is bedded absolutely flat (re the torque wrench! If the receiver bedding is flat, the torque wrench is un-necessary. If your receiver screws turn more than a quarter turn or so from coming snug to tight, you are warping the receiver into place again- that torque thing!!!) If this is a 3 screw deal, only bring the central screw to snug, not tight. It really doesn't do a thing, but fully tight might.... For example, the floor plate (if so equipped ) may be hard to seat and release if tightened too much.. This can be corrected also / or in addition, by properly bedding in the floor plate or trigger guard (just did this on a Model 70- over the years, wood conpression can screw thing up) )

Make sure the forward receiver screw does not protrude into the receiver too far, or at all...

Second would be rebedding, if necessary. Ain't no guarantee the first job was exactly right, much less effective. Nothing wrong with bedding an inch or two of barrel forward of the recoil lug either.

Third option would be full-length neutral bedding. Just set the whole damned works into epoxy bedding compund without benefit of receiver screw tension. (My M98 with heavy bbl, done so, does 1" groups at 300 yards. What is due to the heavy barrel and the bedding remains unknown, but I DGAS! :))

Fourth would be incrementally re-applying forend pressure point with subsequent strips of paper, then bedding a pressure point to best accuracy, just behind those self-same strips of paper.

Also, be sure the magazine box is fitting correctly. That should be up there at first, I guess

I think the first thing to check is to see if the shooter is pulling the shot in anticipation of recoil...

Seat bullet deeper and it will bring it in... if it’s shooting a triangle group seat further out.... my fellow Alaskan wowzer, that’s one hell of a list. Again seat bullets deeper I usually go in .005 increments. Try that if it doesnt work I will buy you lunch at that little restruant that uses a caboose for its restruant in Cheyenne.

Have you tried different powders? How far off is the flyer?

Shoot multiple 5-shot groups, or maybe a 10-shot, and then see what conclusions you can make. In my opinion, 1 shot out in a 3 shot group, and drawing a conclusion, is a failure of the method.

With no more information than we have this is a sound next step.

What about this rifle makes it your favorite?

That can be caused by a bunch of things. First thing to do is shoot some 4 shot groups and see if you get a group of 2 + 2. If so something in your rig is moving from shot to shot. Either your crosshairs bouncing back and forth or your scope bases or your bedding. Could also be caused by inconsistent placement of your rifle on the bag/rest. Especially so since you have a forend pressure point.

Turn the seating stem in 1/4 turn at a time and shoot until all three come together as per Aussiegunwriter's tip.

Every rifle I’ve ever had that did that was a bedding issue. And it is almost always the second shot that is the flyer.

You shoot and the rifle shifts in the bedding a tiny bit. The next shot is the flyer and the vibrations causes it to shift in the bedding again back to the original POI.

So my last rifle that did that I finally narrowed it down to the magazine box putting tension on the action. Then after thinking that I was going to have to bed the mag box again, I narrowed it down to a pretty tiny metal spur on the box. I filed that away and the flyers disappeared. Then, with the flyers gone I found that I could make it boringly accurate by tightening it all down farmer tight and then backing off the rear screw one full turn. Now, everything I shoot in it practically touches.

Yeah , sell it

Don't ignore the possibility of the crosshair bouncing, it may be low on the list, but it does happen. My first 6mmbr with a proven scope would shoot in the teens when I did may part.....decided I wanted more magnification to extend my range. Went to a larger scope and the groups at 100 opened to around 3/4 inch. Scope swap back to the first scope and groups went back to the teens....
Good Luck,
Rick

Yep. Shoot a ten shot group, slow and easy so heat doesn't become an issue.

I had a Savage 99 that would shoot 2 holes touching and always throw the third shot. I remember reading this fix on the fire some years back and tried it.,,,it worked. Three holes touching after deeper seating.

Fotis,
I have to ask.....If that is a 200 yard group what is the extreme velocity spread of your load. Many times a variation in velocity from shot to shot won't necessarily show up at 100 yards but becomes more apparent at 200. I have zero experience with your load, bullet or powder but just thinking this could have a noticeable effect.
Rick

Exactly. You might as well be changing out shocks because your check engine light came on! A 9-shot group on the same target will tell you a whole lot more than three 3-shot groups on three different targets.

By the time he’s done doing all your guys recommendations he will have a new gun.. Again seat bullet deeper.. in some cases switching primers will bring it in. But I mess with seating depth before mess with different primers..

I agree with that assesment. Keep everything the same and seat the bullet deeper in .010" increments. I bet you wind up .10" or more off the lands when you find the sweet spot.

Betcha moving the die either direction will effect that very little....

Looks mechanical to me.... if it’s anything at all.... could be, that’s all the better that rifle will shoot that bullet.

What is a bared hat cross?

This is not a one-time group. Rifle does this with same loads and other loads. I would not expect a solution based on one group.

Here is a 100 yard group with hornadies.




115 NBT's at 200

Indeed, especially if it's across bullets....

I bed 60+ stocks
A
Year. And load 10,000 rounds a year . When fliers appear first thing I do is bed the first 1 1/2" of the barrel, action end AND REMOVE PRESSURE POINTS . If still flying change powder , still fliers, seat deeper by.003 at a time. Never changed a barrel because of fliers, as last resort , switch to flat base bullets ,be patient, it works. Factory barrels and customs. Get after it buddy!

33% is not A flyer.

runout.

I know you have a "high end scope" but switching it to another just to rule it out is cheap and easy. Chyt happens even to "high end optics".

Fotis,
My 7 Wby did that. 2 siamesed, third one out. Drove me insane. Fortunately, they were always < 1 moa. I was so busy working toward one hole groups that I did not have sense enough to realize I could still cover all groups with a quarter. I believe it was you that pointed that out to me in 2008.

See pictures in the previous page. Gotta check runout....

Not if you overlay them and hold them up to the light.

Went back & read the whole thread. Run-out will bite you. When I switched to Redding &/or Wilson seat dies, my run-out problems became a non-issue.

I also seat all of my bullets in the Wby cases, bullet base down to base of the neck for starters. It has worked every time for me.

More drama....

Shoot three 3-shot groups at three targets using the same point of aim for each and overlay them. If the largest of the three groups is under an acceptable X moa and the rifle/optic/load/shooter is all squared away, the group size of the 9 overlayed shots should also be under X moa. Frequently though the combined group size will be larger than X moa and typically quite a bit larger which indicates some combination of the following:

1. The load isn't as good as a 3-shot group implies
2. The shooter has inconsistent form which is affecting POA/POI from group to group
3. The optic has parallax issues (related to 2.)
4. The rifle/stock has a problem (e.g. bedding)
5. The shooter is better at shooting groups than hitting what he/she is aiming at
6. Etc.

What does it look like when you rotate them both 180 degrees?




P

No idea, they're buried in a dirt bank somewhere.....

Back when I was new to reloading I had these kind of troubles. Three shots with two touching and one out. Barely over an inch, but I was trying for less than an inch with a 7mm08 in a Model seven with an eighteen and half inch barrel. I can't remember if someone asked me about it or I just did it on my own, but I got to looking at the old targets, one over another and the first shot was the flyer every time and it was always in the same place, and the next two was always in the same places. I shoot on graph paper, so it made it easy, but I just looked at all of the old first shots that I had targets for, and the first shot was going into less than one half inch. Really great for hunting, and that is what I have that rifle for. I ended up replacing that barrel with a longer one and chambering it to 7mm08 improved, but I quit chasing the under one inch, with that light barrel. miles

I have a 25-06 Sendero that does this. It drove me nuts! My rifle would put 75 grain cup and cores (VMaxs) into tiny little groups quite nicely. But... 100 grain TSXs and TTSXs just would not come under 2-2.5 inches.

One day I bought some Factory ammo on line for really cheap to get the brass and bullets (100 grain TSXs) for the hell of it I shot some and found out they grouped quite well under an inch. Since I have had experiences that taught me monos could be extremely touchy about seating depth I immediately measured the seating depth and found that it was EXACTLY what I had found was the best for those bullets in this rifle. The difference was the velocity. I dropped my velocity down to match the factory ammo and the groups fell together. This rifle is a Sendero with a 26 inch barrel, and I just haven't yet been willing to settle for >250 FPS slower than what the rifle will produce without pressure problems.

In my case, the rifle hast proven to shoot several loads very accurately and a larger number that run 2-2.5 inches. That proves that in at least this case that everything mechanical can be right. The seating depth can be right and the rifle can still be sensitive to velocity. THAT is fairly compelling evidence that node theory can explain at least this rifle. I believe it also can explain others. I also believe that it may link monos to node theory and their well demonstrated sensitivity to seating depth.

If those assumptions are correct them there is reason to believe that bullet shape and/or throat shape also will have some effect on accuracy with monos. Perhaps also, something like moly could also be mitigating. Obviously modifying the pressure curve by changing powders could also be helpful. None of which means it will be easier to find the solution for a given rifle. It just provides a different way to think about solutions which may make life easier for someone with 2 and one problems.

Check out the bullet fun out. It was all over the place with RCBS dies. Now all under 0.03

This is why I quit using RCBS dies along time ago.

Uh, if you are getting 250 fps more than factory / SAAMI velocities for that weight bullet with your load, you have a pressure issue. You just haven’t suffered the consequences of overpressure yet. Ask Mule Deer if you doubt my comment. Happy Trails

Fortis is 1-1.5gr under max load according to nosler manual with the rl22. So have no idea why you think he’s over pressured.

You can adjust your die set for minimal run-out. You just have to be smarter than the die set... I run RCBS FL dies with absolutely no problems whatsoever. Have been doing so for a long time...:



I also check run-out and adjust dies accordingly, right after I get them.

Fotis is that a app you are using to measure your shot size

range buddy phone and pc

can you explain the procedure

Case A: Handloader's rifle needs two grains over book max to reach book velocity. That's OK because the book is just a guide since they didn't use the exact set of components and rifle as the handloader, and the chrono is telling the handloader that velocity, and hence (indirectly) pressure is in line with safe expectations.

Case B: Handloader's rifle is 250 fps over book with two grains under max listed charge weight. Never mind what the chrono says about velocity, and hence (indirectly) pressure, being beyond safe expectations. The book says handloader is two grains under max, never mind that the book didn't use the exact set of components and rifle as the handloader.

Question: Which logic holds?

Math man,
Case B certainly doesn’t if you are exceeding factory/manual velocity by that much. If one is exceeding Weatherby factory loads in any Weatherby cartridge you might be a bit on the warm side. Case A makes sense if you have a reliable chronograph. I have a couple of loads with TTSX bullets that attain book velocity with less than max listed charge with all components exactly as listed. That’s where I stop. Conversely, I have several loads from the Nosler manual that won’t reach listed velocity without pressure signs. YMMV.

I never said that sir

No, but Miles58 did for his load. However, your 3660 velocity for 110 AB is a bit warm. Happy Trails

Didn't Miles say his rifle was happy at 250 fps under full speed?

I made my question comment thinking the talk was about load/velocity info I missed in one of the images I can't see right now. That appears not to be the case, so please ignore my question.

Yeah i dropped 2 grains.

You can adjust your die set for minimal run-out. You just have to be smarter than the die set...


I guess I'm just dumb! I will still choose to run a better Quality die.

Yes, I guess it was late and I misread his > 250 slower statement. My OFS kicking in, please accept my sincere apology for any dander I may have raised. I have had loads with similar patterns develop as well. Usually resolved by +/- powder charge, switching primers, etc to change the pressure curve. Cleaning more or letting it foul a little can help. As an unrelated aside, I could never get 110 Accubond to shoot worth beans in my .257 Roberts. Don’t axe me why, cause I don’t know. It shoots others well. Another bullet I could never get to shoot well was 7mm Hornady Interbond. Happy Trails

Let us know how that works! Happy Trails

Did it ever shoot better groups with different loads/ammo? Since it's your favorite, my guess is that it shot well at some point.

For what it is worth, what I was saying was that the factory loads I found to be accurate were running at 250 FPS below what my rifle had repeatedly shown me to be a max load.and which was in line with book max loads published by more than one manufacturer. Off the top of my head, 58.5 RL-22 produced above 3450 in that rifle's 26 inch barrel. across my chrony. and the factory loads produce 3225.

My feeling was that I should have been able to find another node producing accuracy in that much of a velocity window, and it irked me no end. I tried a number of different powders that would have been appropriate and sometimes maxed out a little faster, sometimes a little slower, but I have to this day have yet to find a node. My thoughts are that I could press on and do a little looking just above published max loads because I have yet to observe pressure signs. My inclination is that until I have exhausted ALL of the suitable powders and then evaluated the less likely powders (like Varget) to see if they will produce closer to what the Rifle should give me, that I will not be pushing things. I would not be at all surprised to see Varget give me something close enough to 3400 to satisfy me