Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Optics Sick of Battling LRF's

It's a cold, dreary, dull day here in mule deer country. The rut is kickiing off, and I proceeded to a good opportunity at a really nice, old mature buck this morning because i couldn't get a range and didn't want to SWAG it.

I've tried numerous LRF's in this type of weather, and none of them have been worth a crap as far as I'm concerned. These stand alone's include the Leupy 1200, (best so far) Swaro , Older Leica 1200 (worst I've had BTW), and a Vortex. Farthest I could read on any target (I realize in these conditions the "non-relfectivity issues) has been a shade over 300 yards. That's OK most of the time, but I like gear that Works! Not bashing my Geovid's, but when the temps got below 30* it had no better RF capabilities than any of these other ones. An acquaintance wanted them worse than I did so I sold them.

I'd really consider the Nikon Laserforce if it would halfassed do what it's supposed to do in these dull, dreary conditions. Will it work? Got the redass over this situation.......

Thanks for the feedback.

ZEISS Victory 8x26mm has worked the best in those conditions (cold, damp, dreary, hanging rain/mist) from my experience.

I’ve never had a problem with my Swarovski ranging through any condition including dreary foggy days.

That's good for you, but I did on several occasions. Not interested in Swaro. Thanks anyway.

Wasn’t offering you mine.

No kidding?

Only hunt on sunny days.

I ain't that old yet ct.......

I've never had any rangefinders work in poor conditions either and relinquished to hunting the old fashion way when its nasty.

I have nothing but good to say about my Leica 2700. Light snow and single digit readings didn't slow it down.

I just use a Nikon Aculon. Nothing fancy, if it won't range quickly then I know it's over 300, I'll just pick out something half way there and range that, double it - close enough for rifle hunting.

I'm really surprised you rate the Leupold 1200 so high. A good friend and elk hunting buddy is on his 3rd unit. Good warranty/CS, but not a great product. At least in his experience. Shows how mileage varies I guess.

I was out deer hunting with another buddy a few weeks back. Sunny, clear, cold, approx. -20C. His Geovids were struggling to range anything. My 2700b was performing well. But I carry mine in a cargo pocket. His Bino was on a harness, outside all his layers. Maybe it was just body heat making the difference?

Form seems to think highly of the Nikons. Maybe give one a try and let us know how it goes.

Never had that issue with newer Leica CRF-1000 unit. Used in Colorado down in single digits

I hear you Wrongside, maybe these chinese LRF's have wide sample variations, I don't know. My first Leupy 1000 TBR had half of the display go out so Leupy sent me the 1200. Can't say I'm in love with it though because every freaking one I've tried has been halfassed. (sorry, rant over). GregW and I had this conversation yesterday and karma has come around to me, today.

Stick a hand warmer by the battery. PIA, but it helps those batteries that suck in the cold.

From what I've heard the Terrapins do not impress in the fog/rain, and they are cream of the crop.

After buying my 2700 Leicas, I sold my Terrapin, however I never gave it a good workout in lousy conditions...

JGRaider: I am rather happy with my Leica LRF 900 - and I live and Hunt both Big Game, predators and Varmints year round (day and night!)!
I am not sure but am willing to bet it gets WAY colder where I often Hunt (7,000'+ elevations in SW Montana) than there in West Texas Mule Deer country.
Maybe this is your problem (which I had many years and many rangefinders ago!) - you are not holding your laser rangefinders STEADY enough?
Once I started resting/steadying my laser rangefinders COMPLETELY, I started getting lasered readings at the needed longer ranges.
I either clamp my Leica 900's with my hands to a tree or use my Hunting pack as a "tripod" etc then I get range readings I am confident in.
My "needs" for ranging anything in the way of Big Game ends just under 600 yards - I won't shoot any further than that. If I get ranges past 600 yards I get closer!
Good luck in what ever you try next - I recommend steadying the LRF to close to absolute stillness and that should help extend your laser distances.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Read this post and grabbed a RF off the table by the back door too see, it's a cold, wet, misty, foggy day here as well, just ranged 710 yards up on the mountain, all the way up to low fog level in the trees, everything else visible in the pasture all the way back to 25 yards flashed a reading.

The Nikon Black RangeX is what I used, don't know what they cost, don't figure they're too expensive, an old Bud gave me that one over six months ago.

I’ve owned several Leicas as well as the Zeiss and the Sig Kilo 2000 I’m using right now is as fast and as reliable as anything I’ve tried. I did learn that if it gets down below 10 deg I shove in my coat or it won’t read the longer distances. But other than that it’s a rockstar out well past any range I’d shoot. 1200 + easily.

Same here, never had a problem with my Swarovski ranging through rain, fog or snow.

Yessir, sample to sample variations are a likely explanation. Frustrating for sure. Maybe you're just not holding still enough. Prolly shivering...

Reading the guy's comments- are you referring more to temp sensitivity, than 'dreary, foggy' conditions?

It's not the laser travelling through the cold air that's the problem, but the RF unit itself getting cold.

JG,

This may or may not be helpful, but I've never seen a RF that worked more reliably in all conditions that my old Bushnell Fusion 1600.

I am surprised that your geovids are working g so poorly in cold weather. That is the second or third pair that I have heard about . Mine work really well in cold conditions, as in well below zero. They are about 4 years old. I wonder what the difference between yours and mine is?

It is 16 degrees and sunny at my house right now and I just ranged to 1027 yds on a tree with no problem with my geovid hd b binos. They must have changed something in the newer ones.???

The cold wreaks havoc on em for sure. I had a Leica CRF that wouldn’t range caribou at 500 yards in the cold. I had a Zeiss PRF that wouldn’t range a wolf at 400 ish in the cold. Both incidents had temps below zero and not much above zero degrees. I’ve learned that when hunting in cold weather I keep the rangefinder in an interior pocket if I want accurate readings and performance.

Just curious, did you leave them outside in 16 degrees for a few hours and then try to do that? Or were they room temp and just went outside to see how far they’d range?

I'm not sure if if I've ever used my Zeiss PRF in below zero temps(where the device was below zero...) but I do know that it would give much faster and farther readings in fog/snow compared to an old Leica that I used to have. But this is dated info, the Zeiss must be almost 8 years old.


Supposed to be -3F tonight so I could test it in the morning.

I do know that those lithium ion batteries work a helluva lot better in cold temps compared to the standard batteries.

Anything with batteries should be carried in an interior pocket in very cold temperatures, if one wants them to work properly IMHO

I used a Leica 1200 LRF for 15 years until I sold it this year and got a Leica 2000B... the 1200 worked down well below zero, no problem. The new Leica hasn't been pushed that low, but has worked in the teens this year no problem. As good as the 1200 was, the 2000 reads more quickly, has better optics, and is lighter.

This.

Son using some new Nikon 4000 or some such with good results. I will stick with the sig.

My Geovid HD-B 3000 has been spot on to temps in the low 20’s.

I’ve got an original Sig Kilo 2000 that’s still rockin’. It’s not fussy in the least.

I had a Sig Kilo 2400 ABS that I tested rather thoroughly this summer. It was fantastic. I let the Kilo 2400 ABS go in favor of the new Geovid—weighing the convergence of two instruments rather highly (bino/LRF). I gave nothing up, with the possible exception of ballistics engine features. All I really miss is a 10 MPH wind value, but that really neither here nor there. The new Geovids range fast and accurately and the optics are superb.

Today, I just took them outside, but this time a year i am hunting coyote s 2 or three days a week for hours at a time, and I have had no issues. I hunted out of my tippi for 12 nights this year, a handful of them were pretty chilly. Again no issues.

I suspect it's the moisture in the air that's as much a problem as the temperature. We see in the 400-700 nanometer range of visible light. Laser rangefinders operate in a higher frequency range but I can't find the exact numbers except one place mentioned a bushnell rangefinder using a 905 nm. I suspect most companies keep it proprietary. Water absorbs in the 1400 nm range so if their lasers are in that range then water could interfere with it. There's also refraction from the water vapor like your headlights on a foggy night, that's what the LRF is seeing with a lot of water vapor in the air just in a different spectrum.

In the end I suspect picking the LRF rated for the most distance is going to give you the best chance of it working in less than ideal circumstances.

My Zeiss has been very reliable in light rain and light snow. I have used it down to single digits for sure and maybe even zero. The only times I have trouble was heavy snow and through glass. I’ve been really happy with it.

Jordan, the Fusion has a really good laser. It’s the funky colored bluish-green glass, and poor clarity, that was a bust IMO. I use mine only for prairie dogs...They work great ranging open spaces. 😎

JG I am not sure why you are having issues. I haven't done this in a few years but when I used to get cabin fever and get bored I used to pop over to nevada and shoot coyotes at long range from fields. Conditions were snow covered, and temps as low as -10 degrees. Although my personal threshold is about 0 these days. any below that and ummm I am staying in the truck RF units were leica geovds, second generation and second generation HD. IE not the huge brick ones but not the split hinge either. Those would range reliably on a coyote/deer etc to about 800 yards, being extra careful and with extra time,Sometimes further if the conditions were just right. The other unit I have used and currently use is the EL range 10x42. These will range 1200+ reliable and I have even ranged to 1900+ when the conditions are just right. when its snowing or sometimes if the sun is at the wrong angle I can have trouble. Certainly not in cloudy conditions. those should be your better conditions.

currently my EL range's are at swaro getting the RF unit fixed. not sure whats wrong I personally think the range button is F'd, I notice the newer ones have a different style range button. Mine are well out of warranty so hopefully the repair doesn't cost too much. Still annoying that my RF unit went down during hunting season.

I can't say this enough, I don't see how anyone hunts with a separate RF unit. both my friends and I have shot animals, even the best animals we have ever gotten because we were using RF binoculars. its simply way way faster. I would never ever ever go back to seperate.

In 2018 it is ridiculously easy to obtain a reliable laser range finder that will work fine well below 0F.

Overcast, dreary days make the lasers bounce further than bright sunny days.

Give us a budget OP so we can help you out of this dilemma.

I believe Crow Hunter has explained the failure of RFs in rain. Depending upon how far one is ranging, beam divergence becomes a real issue. At long range a tripod is necessary. Today with mid 20 degree F temps, using an older Leica 1600 CRF (tripod mounted), I ranged large rocks at 1467, 1763 and 1836 yds. The readings would not always repeat exact ranges as initially read; but I believe them to be accurate. The 1467 range has been confirmed by actual shooting using elevation data from my ballistics chart. I am sure this ranging performance would be impossible in rain.

I know that I am pretty much hated and that you probably have me on ignore but I would look at the Sigs. Sigs had many problems when they were introduced but they are my favorite now. Love the Sigs. I lost a Sig 2200 during my last sheep hunt. I was getting across a nasty muck and silt moulin and my pack had a zipper open and I lost them into the maws of the glacier. I promptly bought another 2200 after I got out. The Sig 2400 ABS is even better but it is pricey. I have a pair of Geovid 10X42 HD-Rs but I like my EL 10X42s more. Sigs work when its cold and they range larger customers that come out of walmart about 400 yards rather well. Better than other rangefinders. It ranges soft targets in snow better than other brands. I am not quite sold on the Sig scope, Sig LRF and cell phone hookup but I am researching them...

Thanks for the feedback and experiences guys. I'm pretty sure it's not the temperature, as it was 35-40* actually, but the wind bit hard, and I had the unit in my coat pocket. I feel that it was the unit's inability to read targets in poor, dull light. It wouldn't read yellow grass sandhills, mesquites, deer, nada, nothing past about 300, but most of the time all I got was - - - -, no reading at all whether the unit was perched on my sticks, the truck, fence post, or whatever. I also know the laser receiver window wasn't blocked as I've done that before too. I'd rather not spend much more than $1k if I don't have to, therefore no newer Geovids, Vectronix, etc.

Jg,
If you can hack the glass quality, i would go Laserforce. I have tried them all and feel its the best bang for the buck. Will give it a heavy work out in africa this year, however thats obviously not a great cold weather test. At least I will have a decent warranty if they fail.
R

Agree. I think we got off on a tangent with the temps. When its dim and/or wet you got to go Indian.

Indian.......Haha!!!!!

Rhettsaker, I bet you have the time of your life in Africa, at least I hope you do. I'd still like to hear your thoughts on that Lasreforce. What's your take on glass quality?

It doesn't work for all situations, but when I can, I'll often use a GPS app to pre-range various terrain features in my area. (I use GPS Kit on an iPhone, others probably do the same.) When comparing ranges with that method to my Leica LRF 1200, the numbers are very close if I'm careful. The big advantages of the GPS map method are that it works at any temperature and any conditions, and at any distance, but the disadvantage is that it's slower and not really something to use on the fly. However, I can usually get a solid range from it within ~30-40 seconds.

Jg,

I think the Laserforce optical quality is a definite step below the geovids I had (ended up giving my geovids to my Ph after he saved my butt on a cape buffalo). However, I am very impressed with the rangefinder on the Nikons. Very fast, accurate, and seems to get readings when I struggle with my Leica RF. As you know, once you do Africa, everything else pales a bit in comparison.
R

Yondering, good point. The OnX line distance function is what I use.

I’ve owned 10x42 Leica BRF’s, Zeiss Victory 8 and 10x 45’s, and currently use 8x42 HD-B Leica. None of them worked in thick fog or heavy snow. When I can’t see more than 300-400yds w/naked eye I expect to get 25-35yd readings from the LRF’s. Too much “stuff” to diffuse the beam. Happened to me the day before Thanksgiving this year. Buddies EL Range 10x42’s didn’t work either.

None of the above have ever given me a problem in cold clear days. The coldest I’ve used any of them was -21f ambient while calling coyotes. They worked fine.

I think most are missing the obvious, JGRaider started this thread "Sick of Battling LRF's"............well then switch to a ORF

I have a Swiss Wild ORF that suffers from none of the issues you mention (although it has issues of it's own), would be happy to loan it to you for free if you pay freight !!

The laser doesn’t care if it’s light out. Only whether the target will reflect the laser energy, or if the atmosphere disperses the laser energy.

Are you using the same brand of battery for all these range finders having issues. Not all batteries are alike.

For the money, I don't think the Sig Kilo can be beat. I've gotten readings on signs and vehicles out to 3500 yards, tree lines out to 1200, and cows out to 1000. Ranging a target inside any realistic shooting distance is no problem at all. I have the 2000 but the 2200 and 2400 are supposedly even better.

My Sig Kilo 2000 has served me very well.

I love equipment that works, wont tolerate [keep] anything that doesn't.

There is a local pawn shop with a Zeiss LRF I could get for $299.00. Let me know if you are interested...

Was lurking awhile here last night before bed and read your post, took my Nikon RF out and set it on the pickup bumper all night, it's only 38 deg here this morning, fog on the mountain is a little higher, still misty and cloudy, was able to easily range up to 951 yards again up to low fog level up in the trees.

Will try again when we get a good 8 degree morning later this winter.

Excellent info guys, thanks again, and thanks again for the offers received. I'm going to try and find something around here though. Timing is bad for screwing around with this LRF stuff......I'll be off for a week hunting and need to get something done today or tomorrow.

Here's the best buy going for a quality LRF:

https://www.eurooptic.com/40536-Lei...6r_SN3wIVBtVkCh1brwFTEAQYASABEgIcfvD_BwE

Have you looked at the newer Leica CRF 2400-R which is slightly more but features:
Eye-Safe IR Laser
10-2400 Yard Measurement Range
0.1-Yard Readings for First 200 Yards
Scan Mode Measurements Every 0.5 Seconds
AquaDura Coated Lenses
Integrated Inclinometer with EHR System
Red LED Display with Auto Brightness
Phase-Corrected 7x24 Monocular
Waterproof and Submersible
Runs on One CR2 Battery


These 2 features,IMO, make this a stand out unit:
0.1-Yard Readings for First 200 Yards
Scan Mode Measurements Every 0.5 Seconds

Order you a Nikon Black Range X for 450 bucks JG, you wont be sorry.

JG,

It's a sample of one, so hardly even a data point, but... I know I'm extremely happy with my Leica 2700b. It's ranged to 2400+ meters, freehand and in full sun, over fresh snow. I haven't had it long, but so far I'd instantly spend the money again. If the 2700 isn't available local to you, or in the budget- Brad's suggestion is a very good one. IMO.

Or again, maybe the new Nikons are worth a shot? Feedback so far is excellent, and supposedly lifetime warranty coverage for the entire unit.

The SIGs seem to be hit or miss. Great, if you get a good one. But again, my perspective on them may be tainted by the fact that a good hunting bud had to send his in for poor performance. It was replaced.

Good luck in your LRF search and hunting!

Sorry to hear that JG....

Seems we had a similar discussion a few days ago. Did you whack an axis?

Two axis down.....

What would have been my biggest coues buck got away a few years back as my Leica 1600 wouldn't range in the light fog in 60 degree weather....

This is the same hunt that my second set of Swaro 15 HDs internally fogged and were worthless for long periods waiting for the sun to dry them out....

I was hot....

Had a Nikon 600 for years. It would read a coyote to 400 yards max. Finally replaced it with a SigKilo 1250, which would read a coyote to not much further than the old Nikon. Sent it back for a refund and bought a Leica 2000B, and I am happy now. It’ll read deer easily to 500 and I have ranged them to 670. Ranged a cow at 1290 yards. You can probably spend more money on Leica units, but this is all I needed, plus some.

Got my 260 dialed in to 500 yards. Dear Lord, send me a coyote that’s wayout there....

if'n it's 'wayout there' it'll be farther than the 260 is dialed in for... just sayin'

For short to medium range, use your reticle. A mil-based reticle makes it easy, but you can still use a holdover reticle for range estimation. Doesn't cost you anything, and you can try it tomorrow.

Jason

In terms of rangefinders, they generally have more problems in bright sun, as Burns stated. Overcast is actually better lighting conditions for a LRF. Fog obviously creates problems for laser rangefinders.

In my experience, any of the popular LRF units can have alignment or source-receiver issues. I had a Swaro that would range to 1800+ with ease, one handed. If you listen to some, they say that Swaro sucks. This is just ignorance to the actual root cause of the issue with their LRF. However, people are quick to state their assumptions based on limited knowledge, and limited samples.

I also had a Leica 1600 that wouldn't range across a small meadow. The replacement Leica easily beats two Sig Kilos on difficult targets. One Kilo was replaced by Sig, as it wouldn't range well.

If you have a LRF with poor performance, but solid reputation, then I'd see if you can get it inspected and replaced under warranty.

Huntsman, the limit of my hay field is 500 yards, so “way out there” for me is 500 yards. Looking the other way along this ROW, I can range deer to about 700 yards, but it isn’t my land.

It was really frustrating to me to see coyotes and hogs out in the hay field, knowing that they were more than 400 out, but less than 500. That frustration finally got me to the Leica 2000B. Now I can’t find a hog or coyote on the hay field. Dang it. But when I do.....

I run the same PRF as Sam and have seen the same thing. I haven’t had enough issues to swap it yet, but I’m sure it’ll happen eventually.

My Zeiss Victory 10 x 45 rangefinder binos gave me readings off trees at over 300 yards through my raindrop covered, curved, pickup windshield yesterday. They have been flawless during the several years (can't remember how many) that I have owned them, and they were pre-owned when I bought them. Two of my best bucks and countless coyotes have died, that definitely would not have otherwise, because I didn't have to switch from binos to rangefinder, and I have played the game both ways. Try switching from binos to rangefinder on a rutting buck at the outer limits of your firearm while lying prone using bipod and turning turrets. Once you've had both in one unit there's no going back, unless you want less taxidermy costs. LOL

M7

Interesting read, my geovid HD-R's are still going strong.

The last couple days have been dark, overcast and rain, on my deer stand I can range to 473 yards in this ot any other condition. That’s as far as I can go at this location.

There must be a lot of units from a lot of manufacturers with those issues. Based on my experience, observation of other folks LRF's, and what has been reported on the internet, it's a crapshoot regardless of which unit one buys.

Maybe quality control is the issue........

I think it is atmospheric conditions more then anything.

I tried my old Zeiss the other day in the cold fog.

6F, you could see maybe 150-200 yards. Maybe.

The Z wouldn't range much over 100 yards.

Next day, slightly warmer(10-15F), crystal clear, and easy readings over 1000 yards.

Glad to hear this, in the process of converting a few rifles over to that system.

Thanks, Jeff

...I have a Ranging 1000 for you. Or if you're okay with packing a bit more weight, a Barr and Stroud.

If you're really serious about stretching it out in poor conditions, take a look at a Newcon, like the LRM 3500.

That's a good point.

I'm no expert with LRFs, but this makes the most sense. The LRF is an active device, like RADAR. It does not care about ambient light.

I'd be investigating batteries. Someone mentioned Lithium-Ion batteries. If you're not using them you should try them. It DOES matter.

I use Lith-Ion batteries, and the LRF gets new ones before every mule deer season whether it needs it or not. I realize the laser doesn't care about light, but it does care about reading the reflectivity of the target. On days of poor reflectivity , conditions as stated in my OP, many LRF's struggle, like mine.

Atmospheric conditions matter, as do lighting conditions. Those are easy to observe and understand.

Variability among different samples, seems to baffle some.

I do this same thing - in an exterior, accessible pocket. Cold weather really puts the wood to the Leica and Sig I've owned.
I can get it nearer my body beneath layers (for warmth) but that's a real PIA to use in a hurry when bundled up.

Greg,

A few years ago I spent 11 days in Alaska waiting for a pair of Swaro binocs to dry out...………….never again

Lefty

SWAG it like they did in the old days.

Soooo easy when you know how....

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...5-creedmoor-with-contraints#Post13298283

David

Most commercially available LRFs use 905nm lasers which is a longer wavelength, but lower frequency, than the visible light. In general, longer wavelength is beneficial for seeing through particulates in the air, like water droplets.

Of the consumer LRFs I have played with over the last few years, I think Sig Kilo 2400 is the best of the single lens units. With binoculars, Leica HD-B is the best I have seen yet.

Honorable mention goes to the image stabilized Nikon since it is easier to keep on target.

ILya