Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Montana shoulder season ,poorly run

So Montana has a shoulder season that starts August 15 th runs thru part of next year. how would you as I have to do as a bowhunter sitting in the mountains trying to tag a legal bull or cow and all`s you hear and see is a pickup or two pull up on private ground near a rancher`s alfalfa field,chasin elk with truck, people jump out start shooting their rifles at a herd of elk ,maybe kill a cow or calf ,oh by the way some locals buy more than one tag and that is legal too,have even seen a bull limbed off too. these locals call themselves`s hunters what a joke. its not a shoulder season its a slaughter season for the locals ! this is just wrong and way to early and way to many elk killed too ! but oh boy anyone with a real disability can not use a x-bow in Montana either but its ok to kill up to 3 cow elk per person in August in Montana on private land with your rifle. common sense ? really ? shame on Montana

MT FWP is run by landowners and the politicians that cater to them, not by science/biologists...

What the heck does shoulder season mean?

Two points.

1. If a shoulder season in held on private land, wouldn't it encourage elk 2!stay on public land?

2. Brucellosis has reared its ugly head in Montana,.............elk numbers have got 2 drop.

The shoulder season closes during archery season. I wish they would not start it until after gun season closes instead of Aug. 15 and cut it off around Jan. 1st. Has changed the elk movement completely in 393. Between the wolves, shoulder seasons and outfitters, The hunting in 393 is worthless.

You can only shoot 'em in the "front shoulder."

yep this is true and terrible for all real hunters !

Yes, and you must include the activists from both sides of the time clock.

Oh no silly rabbit.....

Front shoulder....middle shoulder.....top shoulder.....low shoulder.....back shoulder.....all possible shoulders???????????????

Except NOT from the road shoulder!

“A shoulder season is a firearms season that occurs outside the 5-week general firearms and archery seasons. While most shoulder seasons focus on antlerless elk harvest on private land and are not intended to replace or reduce harvest during the existing archery or 5-week general firearms seasons, a few are meant to address problematic distribution of elk.”

Dumb name for a season

Two Points:

1). Yes, the shoulder season is on private land http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/seasons/elkShoulder/

"While most shoulder seasons focus on antlerless elk harvest on private land and are not intended to replace or reduce harvest during the existing archery or 5-week general firearms seasons, a few are meant to address problematic distribution of elk."

2). The shoulder season extends geographically far beyond the GYES where brucellosis is generally concentrated. The "brucellosis threat" is a massively overblown red herring used to pressure FWP. Brucellosis monitoring and management is extraordinarily thorough.

The stressing and harassment of elk when they are most vulnerable (winter) directly on the heels of our lengthy 3 mo's archery and firearms seasons is unconscionable.

Totally

don`t forget these ranchers have all there cows in the mountains all summer long so all the grass is gone so elk have to come down to feed on private land , its a very bad cycle and the elk are the ones that suffer. its time to get all beef out of the mountains all year long, so elk have grass to eat in the mountains

So you need science to qualify as a correct model for game management. That is only part of the picture. If you go to any of the meetings held by FWP on any management issues, you don't see many biologists and scientists, you see sportsmen that want to modify the seasons to enhance hunting opportunities. I'm not saying that is wrong, it is just how things are done.

So when a landowner complains to the FWP about elk populations, why does it have to be done in accordance with science anymore than other forms of input? I shoot gophers on plenty of ranches that don't summer cattle on public ground. I have spent days rebuilding fences that elk have knocked down on those ranches and FWP isn't funding or sending anyone there to help. So when people complain about shoulder seasons and blame ranchers for screwing up the hunting season, it isn't really a complete picture of the elk or elk management practices...

so why allow beef cows in the public mountains and all public land ? these ranchers beef cows have eaten and destroyed the grass for years and now these ranchers want to complain about the elk ? really? lets take those beef cows off and out of all public lands permanently and see in 10 years if I am wrong. lets also make residents pay more for a elk tag too seems wrong residents pay less than $40.00 for a elk license and a non-resident pays around $900.00 . then non-residents come out to Montana and ranchers have most of the public elk on there land and want a fee or won`t let you hunt on their land,but its ok to have beef cows eat and destroy public land every year. that`s just all wrong ! some day this will change and those beef cows will be fenced on ranchers land and the ranchers won`t be using public grass land no more ,so these ranchers better stop whinning so much.

I never said ranchers/farmers were the entirety of the reason for the shoulder season, but they are the primary reason. They wield the most power and influence.



YES... unless you live in the middle ages.



You ranch in elk country, that's what you get. News Flash: Elk create incredible value for those ranches, and give them a value far beyond ag prices. Most of those ranchers beoching about elk are multi-millionaires (at least on paper) because of those elk.

You and people like come from somewhere else for the grandeur of “Big Sky Country” and don’t realize that Montana used to be the “Treasure State” due to the industry of livestock and natural resources. Water rights and grazing permits predate Montana statehood and that is the industry that newcomers like you don’t like because it interferes with your selfish views of what is left.

You eat meat, live in a house that was built with lumber, wear leather shoes and want to be left alone in the wilderness. Montana used to be in the top 10% of states that were self sufficient through the industries that are now fragile and supported by government programs because the agricultural community has been strangled by people like you and you piss and moan about that.

There are all sorts of highways leading out of Montana, if you don’t like it here get on one and leave...

So typical...

I understand a little something about the Treasure State. My father was here flying lease-hounds around Montana before you were born. The mineral wealth in the state was/is staggering, but is also why Montana has some serious Superfund sites, including the Berkley Pit. The fact that Montana has moved past an extraction economy isn't a good thing?

There are intelligent ways to manage natural resources and stupid ways...

But of course defacing natural wonders with regard to no one but yourself seems right up your alley...

https://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?285848-Does-Anyone-Remember-Larry-Altimus

no I will still come to Montana its part of America and free in a way to drive any place in America,but the rule/law of cattle in the mountains needs to change on Federal land , so since ranchers whine about elk, many of us will whine to our congress men and we out number you and ranchers and we the people will make a huge change permantly, don`t forget federal land belongs to all the people of America not just ranchers or you we all are part of America ,maybe the native Americans should have a say on where beef cattle should be allowed ,we were here first and my other ancestor part Viking heritage discovered America,just because you live in Montana does not give you or anyone else anymore more rights on Federal land >America is one country a vote can change the law !

Some people still don't understand that lower elevations, which are usually privately owned , feed those elk all winter long.The elk move lower,not because all the grass has been grazed, but because most of it is covered with snow too deep to paw thru.This has been going on for a few hundred years at least. The elk feeding on private land eat a lot more forage than they do on public land during the winter.

Another reason they move to private land is too much hunter pressure on public land.They aren't dummies and know where they are safe.

I hunt where mostly sheep are grazed. I find ell very year.

California is great example of cutting out grazing and timber on public land . The old saying "graze, log it or let it burn" holds true.

You can bit*h to your congressman all you want,but when it comes down to it,the ag community carries much more weight.Also the federal government does not control wildlife,each state does. The feds can pass all the laws they want about use of federal lands ,but they can't control wildlife unless it is a protected species. All those mean nasty ranchers have the right to kill all those elk that are eating their forage,but mostly they feed them.

Colorado has such hunts.I disagree on how CPW manages them.Mostly because vouchers are given out to ranchers when crop damage occurs and the rancher decides who hunts,sometimes selling those tags.The general public has no way of finding out who gets those tags.
There are units in Colorado where a person can get two elk tags for public land "A" and "B" tags. Crop damage or cull hunts are "C" tags and you can buy as many as you want.

" don`t forget federal land belongs to all the people of America not just ranchers" You can do anything within legal means to use any federal land,but you have to go to the states to hunt on that land.Something too many people can't get thru their thick skulls.

I think an awful lot of folks fail to realize that success rates in most traditional "elk hunting" states runs in the low 20% range with WY being the outlier in the mid-40% range. That means 1 legal elk every ~5yrs of hunting. Even if you as a non-resident hunt every-other year you're looking at an average of 1 legal elk/decade. WY is higher but it's unlikely you're going to hunt WY every year due to preference points.

Elk hunting isn't like sitting in a stand/blind over a corn-flinger.

It looks to me like the FWP is certainly bowing to pressure(dollars) from ranchers via the state legislature to open up public land to grazing and to reduce elk numbers to non-huntable numbers. Looking at what has been done in 380, 392, 391 and a few other zones nearby that I've hunted over the last decade bear that out. The FWP is giving out more cow tags than there are elk in most of these areas. That is blatant depopulation.

Wolves, sub divisions and 'wilderness' trophy homes are clearly the answer.

Sam, did you know you are a millionaire?

There are too many elk, too many cattle, not enough mule deer.

And a new emerging whitetail population that is most exciting on the Eastern mid Idaho Border.

Any amount of brucellosis in any herd of animals is a " Big Deal" IMO.

It is a shame some one blames successful cow elk hunting on their own inability to harvest an animal during Montanas general season.

Personally I find Montana a total breath of fresh air to big game hunting compared to Idaho! But I am a dick head!

Please hunt Idaho instead!

Pete53, I hope you are more intelligent than your writing skill indicates. Please proofread before posting. A couple of points.With a couple of exceptions, elk numbers are way over projection. Two reasons why. There is a lot of private land that won't allow hunting. The problem is that many of their neighbors that do allow hunting, have to deal with the massive elk herds coming off those locked up properties when winter hits, and the elk head for their haystacks. Second, many of the elk have been living in the irrigated pivots for 5 or 6 generations now. Those elk have been born and raised in the near vicinity and won't leave willingly. There is plenty of grass for cattle and elk on public ground. The elk are not starving. Would you rather eat dry crappy grass in august, or set up camp in an irrigated pivot of alfalfa? There are no perfect solutions, and as long as we want private property rights in this country, we will have to deal with people who won't allow hunting even when they should. All sides will have to give a little. The overall sorry condition of the average elk Hunter here in Montana doesn't help much. More people that want to sit and gripe, than get out and walk and hunt. If you can't at least kill a cow elk here in Montana during a 5 week season, then you haven't hunted very hard.

Ranches in the west are a tremendous land trust for wildlife, sportsmen, and wildlife enthusiast alike. Most ranchers today are land-rich and cash-poor. Folks love to run them down but many live on million dollar plus properties and work for pennies. I don't begrudge them the bit of public grazing that is left on FS land or the vast areas of BLM that is grazed. You run these ranches out of business and the alternative is too often development, 20 acre parcels. What's more is that the truth is the opposite. Studies show that regularly grazed land is healthier year-to-year over ungrazed, overgrown land. You show some evidence that elk are starving in the mountains due to competition with cattle and I'm all ears. Finally, much of the grazing has been cut back due to the clean water act, which closed many areas to public lease. As a population, ranchers are our friends and the friends of wildlife. I don't need free access to all ranch property to recognize the benefit we derive.

Shrap, it is always interesting that folks come here because of the beauty and abundance and then want to fix it. What they might miss is that we've been hunting, ranching, farming, and mining this land as long as we've been here. Is it perfect? No, certainly not. But I'm always hearing these one-aspect solutions that are supposed to solve great issues with little consideration for what the unintended consequences might be.

As for me, I get elk during the general season every year on public land. I don't hunt the shoulder season. However I understand that the shoulder season is designed to drive elk from private holdings and onto public land, thus increasing your opportunities. It seems to me that the OP is barking up the wrong tree. Maybe stop worrying over elk that you can't hunt and go where the elk live that you can hunt?

The OP likely comes from the land of raised permanent "Pinochle" stands, abandoned farmstead woodlots, and 3 acre food plots.

I saw in the bowhunting/crossbow thread that the OP has a 4pt minimum on his hunting property back in WI. I didn't see where he stated that he let folks come in and shoot does or voluntarily moves deer off of his land and onto public land to help provide opportunity for folks hunting public land.

Can you quantify how public lands are in worse shape now than they were 10, 15, or 20 years ago?

I can tell from your sophomoric posts that you have no clue what you're speaking about. You are simply emoting like a hysteric woman.

Educate yourself because you are making a fool of yourself.

Do you have any clue why elk numbers are up?

Do you not understand that a tremendous amount of wildlife population boom in the western states, Montana included, are a result of improvements made to range, both public and private, by ranchers. Yes, those terrible people that you choose to denigrate here. It is no wonder you struggle getting access to hunt anywhere but public lands with an ignorant, chip-on-your-shoulder, uneducated attitude like you have.

Anybody have any General tag shoulder season recommendations?

I never filled my elk tag and am not wanting to buy a non resident B if I don't have to.

Thanks!

I talked to the retired FWP biologist that spent decades managing the Madison-Wall Creek Wildlife Management Area out of Ennis, Montana. Specifically, we talked about grazing allotments on the National Forest and the impact on elk. It was concluded by him that the cattle grazing on the National Forest had virtually no impact on the available grass for elk forage. He also mentioned how the elk moved out of the high country due to snow and weather conditions and not because of lack of grass.

Further, he explained the reasons for shoulder seasons and how landowners were involved in that decision process by FWP. The lies that Brad and Pete want to spread is nothing more than an emotional rant because they want to force landowners to allow them to hunt on private property in the name of game management. You guys need to get more information other than Gallatin Wildlife Federation and other environmentally based organizations that want to overturn private property rights for the sake of personal selfishness.

Nothing but crickets from the gallery I am sure, as our boys that want everything for themselves, realize they are not in the majority for wanting things their way...

So Shrapnel, were you ever prosecuted for defacing public property?

https://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?285848-Does-Anyone-Remember-Larry-Altimus

Because frankly, you've got quite the arrogance to come here and, rather than have a conversation from differing POV's about public property (elk), turn to personal attacks because someone differs with you.

Amazing hypocrisy...

Of course not. You and your butt buddy Kurt are way off base. You keep trying to bring that ridiculous story of defacing property. You haven't even been there and keep trying to make something of it. It is a signature rock face that local ranchers have scratched their names and brands into for decades. That is how we found it, we were told by local ranchers. Somewhere after the fact, there has been a claim that there are petroglyphs in the same are, but it is also under good authority that the so-called petroglyphs were scratched there by those same ranchers.

You have no knowledge of any of this but through Kurt and yet you don't see mine or anyone else's name by the petroglyphs, just in another rock face. Here is another picture of a rock face we defaced, I have found them in various places around the state and they are nothing more than markes of people and their passing by a similar place over time. Go ahead and report this one too...

A couple things: 1) I'm not butt buddies with anybody but I did take those pictures with somebody who goes to church with you. 2) I have been there, know the locals, didn't see any local brands or names - just you and your boys names. 3) Your names are a couple steps from the petroglyphs and there is now a sign there, as it's on USFS land. 4) I didn't "report" anything, but was curious if you got in any trouble.

Now - back to the great elk hunting thread..

+1, no doubt about that last sentence.

100% agreement from me. When you have a conversation rather than a shouting match, the nuances come out.

But in the case of the Shoulder Season, it comes primarily from landowners wanting it all their own way.

Thanks for setting the record straight Greenhorn.

In my experience, whenever someone breezily throws the word "liar" around, they usually are...

And what about those that throw the word 'breezily'?

you pitched that one right down the middle......grin

Lol, too true! I deserved that...

why not allow everyone just to have one elk tag for any elk for 2 years ?, and any rancher who owns land that allows elk hunting on their property give them a $100.00 bonus for any non-resident who shoots an elk on his property. there are some very wealthy people that own plenty land with too many elk on their property and do not allow many people on this private land and yes disease may happen that needs to change soon too ? but resident licenses need to be half of a non-resident tag ,in general I have seen some very poor resident hunters that pick-up hunt only that needs to stop too.

So you think non-residents should get preferential treatment?

Good luck with that.

> yes they should non-residents pay more and the western states make more money of us too ,even liberal Colorado does.

The "Wisconsin Whine" is STRONG with this one.

We already have a block management program where fwp pays landowners who allow hunting on their land. Works fine. As to the increase in resident licence fees.... Go jump. They don't need increased licence costs to make you feel better. I hunt idaho every year, and I pay out of state tag prices. No complaining. If you don't like the way we do things here, don't hunt here.

Like I said, good luck with that. Makes a lot of sense, state agencies giving preference to non-residents.

Residents need to pay a lot more. Though I’m not sure a general MT elk or deer license are worth wiping your ass with these days.

You had me til you said “church”..... grin

Come hunt Wa you’ll see why I greedily pay the price..... haha

Matter of fact I’ll gladly pay $10000 for a buck tag over there...

Everybody knows church folk are smart, decent, and honest peoples..


Nobody with half a firing brain cell would pay that without some prime access to private property.

Never had prime access to private property, but I’m all ears if you have lead or 3...

J, access to prime private is where it's at....

I can't afford it!

Any leads sammo? Pm would be excellent

As a aside, I love Montana, I love the people, the country, the business’, the hunting, it’s probably my favorite trip of the year, can’t wait to come back....

PS, it’s amazing the access a guy can get if you act like a white man....


2018 was a 185” of love.....

why do you say residents need to pay a lot more?...…...bob

I don’t like sheds either.... grin

That is a nice one!


Sorry no leads on private honey holes.

For conversation, $106 for deer and elk to combat hunt this cesspool..... as a resident

I am headed to a prime private on 19th for the shoulder hunt. I bought a trespass pass at a local charity event.
It should be an adventure. I will do my part to rectify 900% over objective.
I hunted a week during November and then several weekends. I was in elk on public, block and private each day I hunted. I hunted 3 different districts and 5 different block managements.
God help us if the nonresidents bring us more "fixes"

Well, I guess if you think it makes sense that a MT deer or elk license is worth about the same as a six pack of beer..

Judman, nice buck. Easy enough to say that's not the average buck you'll find in MT, especially on public land these days. I hope acting like a white man keeps paying off for you. I've only once killed a mule deer in MT that I loaded whole into my truck, and never an elk.

I’m hoping to load a elk into my boat next year, whole.... grin

I am glad you are satisfied. I hunted 31 days this rifle season for elk in MT. All on public, except for a drive on a nice private place Saturday for a cow. I am not satisfied with the public land elk hunting. Might have to lower my bar for satisfaction I guess.

I never said what I think, I asked you...…...I thought you might have a reason to say that....., as in where the increase in money would best be spent...….personally I think they should be raised quite a bit...….also think special tags should be money up front to apply......more money for block management and so on......of course most people get pissed if you bring it up...….bob

God help us if the nonresidents STOP bringing us more "fixe$$$".

I have a 50-50 chance at drawing a 632 rifle bull tag but I don't want to put my name in the hat.


Archery guys porcupine all the bulls out there.


The Breaks were discovered a few years ago but Newberg really helped to ruin it.


It is a train of KUIU warriors with new lifted Silverado's pulling new SXS's.

I love Montana...

And Newberg has ruined more than 1 hunt, wish more members would speak up.... hint

Sam I couldn’t believe the amount of side by sides headed your way as I was coming home this year.... I have several quads, a dual sport etc and have never hauled them east..... let’s hope Montana doesn’t fall prey like Idaho has..... fuuck me ....

Judman probably not going to like it but majority have Washington plates. They far exceed all others as fashion hunting warriors with fancy rigs. The breaks have been ruined for years. Ashland is next. Publicity ruins everything good. Whether TV internet FB etc.....

Sam in our lifetime hunting will become only for the rich. It’s headed that way in a hurry.

I savvy that, been a lot of changes here the last few years.... I miss the days of buying Montana tags right before the hunt.... as said before I’ll continue to feed the small towns of Montana, have a excellent time, make friends and kill bigger bucks than 95% of residents yearly... oh I hunt broadus!!!! Great town!!! Haha

I need to go to pow and learn them up on buck killin....

Broadus is a great town. So far deer hunting hasn’t brought the money and attention the elk have. Eastern Montana deer hunting is probably safe for a few more years. Judman I don’t doubt for a second you kill bigger deeer and more often than most locals. They often are only willing to drive around and catch a buzz and bitch that the hunting isn’t as good as it was in the old days.

I love spending $$ in Montana, if only because of the folks alone.... great people for sure

That's the same attitude I've experienced from every person from WI when I've met them afield, on the water, or on the ice. Essentially, "You owe me because I paid more for a license."

The US should gift WI to France, or Iran.

I have a lot of friends in WI, so I know there are good people there. One time I camped next to four guys from WI (strangers), who had made the trip down to hunt a very nice part of the "liberal Colorado" mountains. A part like they don't have in WI. They shot three elk, recovered two.
Gave up on one, said there was a blood trail but it was going uphill so the bull wasn't hurt bad. They left one up on the mountain,for about two days, only a mile away with four of 'em in camp. The guy who shot it dodn't pack any out, but was back down in camp, celebrating. Told me he'd just "go into town, call up an outfitter with horses, and get him out here."

I told him not to count on that, it being hunting season and outfitters being busy with their clients. He told me it'd be no problem, but he was back in a couple hours with his dick in his hand. I gave him the name of the outfitter who I knew was licensed in this particular area and luckily, the guy had some time but it took him another day to get out there. Meanwhile these four lazy F***s left the elk up on the mountain, waiting for the man with horses. I'm pretty sure they were party hunting too because all four were talking about shooting bulls but they let it slip that they only had two bull tags.

It does crack me up to hear someone from WI talk about some other place being liberal though.

I only tell this story because like you horse, I'm tired of listening to NR hunters bitch and moan. If it was up to me, there'd be a lot fewer where I hunt, they're ruining the damn place. I once had another guy from WI complain about "too many people hunting here" when he saw me come around a bend in the trail. Like I ruined his day or something. I sat down on the log next to him and told him I'd been hunting the place for years but didn't remember seeing him back in there. Of course I hadn't, it was the first time he'd hunted the area.

The same guy came stumbling into our camp after dark that night, lost. He was headed down a creek bed that was rough as a corn cob, would've taken him a loooong time to get back to the trailhead. The trail (heavily used and on every map of the area) was about 80 yards up the mountian.

I won't disparage any particular state,and don't have a general complaint about NR's.I even hunt with them.. However several years ago a group came into my camp and wanted me to pack out their camp since I had mules . I informed them that I was not an outfitter and since I would not do free, I was not permitted to accept money to do it. It got pretty heated and they left cussing "those damn locals".

This has happened quite a few times to me. Even in 2107 a young fellow from Texas wanted me to do it.Turns out his elk tag wasn't even for the unit he killed the bull in.

Just to be clear, I'm not a MT resident, I live in ND. I have drawn 14 NR big-game general combo tags in MT since 2001 though. I guess I've always thought that drawing the tag didn't entitle me to anything, nor have I ever thought that my opinions or wishes are of any value to the folks who ultimately make the hunting regs in MT.

I've always considered drawing any tag or buying any license outside of my home in ND more of an invite or extension of the privilege to hunt/fish within the bounds of how the residents and their state's/province's Game and Fish, DNR, FWP, etc, etc, etc, have decided things need work. I'm just a guest and guests IMO don't get to make rules or demands. As a guest, my goal is that for the most part, you'll never even know I was there other than maybe a rib-cage and spinal column left behind somewhere that it's not a disturbance.

I guess as I see it, the only choice or voice I have as a non-resident hunter/fisherman is whether or not to buy/apply for a license.

Neither price disparity nor time constraints of travel/vacation entitle anyone to Jack-Diddly Squat IMO.

Ouch!

If you want to see selective good ol boy " gifting" of big game to special interests.

Check out Idaho!

P.S. get u a 4 wheeler or a side by side. The only way to go on closed national forest roads!

Went back and read the OP's posts. Mostly a bunch of whining. My original response related only to the "Shoulder Season" aspect in the thread title, which I stand by. I've seen one of my favorite units losing elk dramatically - no one is quite sure exactly why - but which simultaneously had a shoulder season implemented in it. If that's not catering to landowners without adequate data (the science part), I don't know what is. Makes no sense.

I also think elk need a break. For god's sake, they get pounded all fall, deal with predators year round, then get chased by Kuiu clad warriors doing the F150 sneak in December, January, and February, just the time when they'd like to be catching their breath and surviving winter.

I'm grateful for the large landowners in the state, and understand what they're up against. But sometimes the pendulum gets swung too far in their favor.

Crickets.

I've been friends with that FWP biologist for the past 40 or so years. He is definitely a science biologist and has probably forgot more about elk biology than most that post here will ever know.

He once explained to me how with proper timing, allowing a proper number of cattle to graze on the forest land in the Wall Cr Area actually benefited the grazing for the elk.

Saddlesore, I don't have a general complaint about NR hunters either, except for two things.

I don't want to hear their pissing and moaning, and I especially don't want to listen to any idiots who think NRs should get preferential treatment.

That, and CP&W issues too many tags, which is not the fault of NRs.

That's pretty common knowledge, and was once the role of bison. Most everything he's posted is elk 101... the point of the thread, at least from my perspective, is the validity/wisdom/science of the Shoulder Season.

Shrap only hunts private and if you notice only shoots what he can drive to. His opinion and experiences really don't matter. He hunts in a vacuum.

I don't understand how living and hunting the same state your whole life and being able to cultivate relationships that allow you opportunity somehow renders your opinions and experiences invalid. There are things that can be bought and others that can only be earned. The things that must be earned seem to really make the "buyers" of the world indignant.

Just so we're clear here, while we've got our share of knuckleheads in WI - the OP hails from MN.
And, see my longstanding signature line concerning the OP.


As well, I wholeheartedly approach my visits to other states just like this:

What happens on small bits of private with very little or no hunting pressure compared to the vast amounts of public land in Montana crawling with orange vests is apples and carrots. The guys that kill elk on public land year after year are the guys with real experience. Simply put, ones hunting and ones shooting.

Don't you think that gaining access to ranches is in the 'bought' category wheras pushing into remote areas of public land is more in the 'earned' category?

No gripes against any of the ways that hunters may use to get an easier hunt. That could be buying ranch access or bartering for it, hiring guides or outfitters, hunting high fence or low fence, waiting 20 years for a prime tag, convoys of machines and horses that the average guy can only dream of, depredation hunts, Ranching for Wildlife hunts, etc.
As far as I am concerned all is fair as long as you don't misrepresent it.
The trouble is that almost everyone misrepresents it.
How many times to you ask someone about a nice trophy on a wall and they almost always leave out the part about the help they had to obtain it?
Often times those I would consider in that 'bought' category are the loudest about talking themselves up.

So who is whining now? I could send you some Wisconsin cheese to go with that whine. LOL