Like it or not evolution is a reality. The question of how the Universe came about, if it did (cyclic or part of a greater system) is a work in progress.
Live with the mystery folks, the Universe may be not only stranger than we imagine, but stranger than we can imagine.....
And the Creator of it also.
Ecc 10:2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.
A Nation which leaves God behind is soon left behind.
"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".
Did Apostle Paul see Jesus within the forty days prior to His ascension like Peter did?
Seriously...?
Originally Posted by Ringman
Did Apostle Paul see Jesus.....?
Paul did both see and hear the risen Jesus.
I believe Jesus was who he claimed to be. I believe Paul was something on the order of at least borderline paranoid schizophrenic. Remember his trip to third heaven, or his three different versions of meeting Jesus on the road to Damascus. Not to mention his contradictory writings if they in fact are his.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you." Hebrew Roots Judaizer
Hitchens was pretty smart. He was prolly about as smart as a guy who could make the universe and everything in it, huh?
Jag,
Hitch certainly had a wit about him. The kind of orator that, whether we agreed with him or not, left us entertained if nothing else. I regret his passing.
To answer your question though, I have to say that I honestly do not know.
I've struggled smithing my words recently and dont mean to give the wrong impression and thus be misunderstood. I guess you could say that I'm neither a believer nor an atheist, and that I'm more of a seeker, Perhaps I'd be labeled an agnostic, if defined as "one who simply does not know."
I cant say that there isnt a god, not can I say that there is...
I do know that some have penned that jesus is the "Truth" and that the holy spirit is the "Revealer." I'm a human with an open mind who simply doesnt doesn't know, perhaps the three of us will meet, perhaps not...
I hope I have helped you understand where I am with all this.
"I'd rather have an Army of Asses led by a Lion, than an Army of Lions led by an Ass." (George Washington)
Voodoo is a religion, and includes may Catholic elements, more than you probably imagine. As for claiming to be religion, but not really being so, .....you should look in the mirror.
You got that right. Jesus' (Yeshua's) teachings which weren't new ideas at all have had so much of other belief systems stitched onto them it resembles a religious Frankenstein monster.
Interesting comment. Why would you say that Jesus’ teachings were not new ideas? I have an opinion on this, but I would like to hear your viewpoint.
Also.... you went on to say that Jesus’ teachings had “other belief systems” stitched on to them. I am wondering about that. Can you elaborate?
Thanks,
Because there were many similiar predecessor religions to Christianity. Here Richard Carrier details several, and also some that are claimed but are not actually do not feature a dying and rising god like Christianity:
Meh, just another hasty search then cut and paste.
As I recall, Bart Ehrman does not doubt the historicity of Jesus.
If I understand him correctly, I believe Bart believes that there is a "probability" of a historical jesus.
Hitchens on the other hand......
If you read and watch Ehrman carefully, his evidence for the historicity of Jesus is actually very flimsy and what he believes in is not what any Christian would recognize as their "Jesus".
T,
You are correct. Ehrman would not make for a very good apologist in light of Christian doctrine.
"I'd rather have an Army of Asses led by a Lion, than an Army of Lions led by an Ass." (George Washington)
Hitchens was pretty smart. He was prolly about as smart as a guy who could make the universe and everything in it, huh?
Jag,
Hitch certainly had a wit about him. The kind of orator that, whether we agreed with him or not, left us entertained if nothing else. I regret his passing.
To answer your question though, I have to say that I honestly do not know.
I've struggled smithing my words recently and dont mean to give the wrong impression and thus be misunderstood. I guess you could say that I'm neither a believer nor an atheist, and that I'm more of a seeker, Perhaps I'd be labeled an agnostic, if defined as "one who simply does not know."
I cant say that there isnt a god, not can I say that there is...
I do know that some have penned that jesus is the "Truth" and that the holy spirit is the "Revealer." I'm a human with an open mind who simply doesnt doesn't know, perhaps the three of us will meet, perhaps not...
I hope I have helped you understand where I am with all this.
I'm so glad to hear that. Praise the Lord. Thanks for that. I would ask you to pray and ask HIM to come into your heart and save and give you faith if HE is true.
Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
Ecc 10:2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.
A Nation which leaves God behind is soon left behind.
"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".
Until we finally got a good look and found out otherwise;most were pretty sure that Heaven was just up there on top of the clouds. Just as they thought Hell was deep in the Earth.
“The Bible is clear — Hell is inside the earth! Ephesians 4:9, says of Jesus: "Now that He ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH."”
As per usual, you share what you think and why. This is to your credit. I appreciate that.
Anyway, there has been a bit of past discussion in these threads about the the Big Bang, origins of the universe and what not. There has been mention of the concepts regarding “multiverses.” The simplistic explanation that these exist in parallel with ours and may have or even likely have “different physics.” This has always seemed possible to.... at least in my opinion.
The Bible and Jesus both refer to,what I would call the “spirit” world. The abode of God before the creation of,this world.
Clearly the physics of the spirit world is not like our world.
Satan, a spirit being, was “cast down” ..... seemingly to earth. He is referred to as the “prince” of this world.
I can see that yes, there is Hades, Gehenna.... what have you, in the spirit world .....and it may indeed be in the earth.
I have found that when trying to understand the Bible, I see what appears to be contradictions or different teachings on what appears to the the same subject. When faced with this issue, I often start by wondering how “both can be true?”
Hell in the earth? Yep, could be. More questions than answers sometimes.
Another example is Jesus’ teaching on the law. It seems not square with other NT writings regarding the law.
But, Jesus’ teachings on the “law” were .... before.... the Crucifiction.... note that His sacrifice changed how believers, members of the Body of Christ.... are seen....how they are free from the law, based on the blood.
Last edited by TF49; 06/20/20. Reason: Spel air
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
I appreciate where your heart is with that Jag. I really do.
A little nugget of insight that I think only fair for you to know is - that not only do I know the gospel message but I've also preached it to thousands in countless countries around the globe.
If love is the evidence, than I can say with gratitude that I have recieved it beyond measure from certain professing christians far more than I have deserved. Yet I too have also experienced similar from non believers as well. Go figure.
That said, I and others, have also seen and experienced hate from professing christians and non believers alike at equal measure. Again go figure.
But I am a realist and know it would be nothing less than foolishness to attempt to build a foundation upon the basis of anothers behavior, fickle as the human heart is.
So, this comes down to a spiritual matter of revelation, of which, were I to reach into my own pocket in an attempt to use such as evidence I admittedly would come out empty handed.
What is in my pocket though, is the ability to celebrate with those who do believe, and understanding for those who dont.
I do appreciate your heart Jag, and the passion you so boldly emanate.
"I'd rather have an Army of Asses led by a Lion, than an Army of Lions led by an Ass." (George Washington)
“One must state it plainly. Religion comes from the period of human prehistory where nobody—not even the mighty Democritus who concluded that all matter was made from atoms—had the smallest idea what was going on. It comes from the bawling and fearful infancy of our species, and is a babyish attempt to meet our inescapable demand for knowledge (as well as for comfort, reassurance and other infantile needs). Today the least educated of my children knows much more about the natural order than any of the founders of religion, and one would like to think—though the connection is not a fully demonstrable one—that this is why they seem so uninterested in sending fellow humans to hell.” ― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
“Philosophy begins where religion ends, just as by analogy chemistry begins where alchemy runs out, and astronomy takes the place of astrology.” ― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
Leo of the Land of Dyr
NRA FOR LIFE
I MISS SARAH
“In Trump We Trust.” Right????
SOMEBODY please tell TRH that Netanyahu NEVER said "Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away."
Voodoo is a religion, and includes may Catholic elements, more than you probably imagine. As for claiming to be religion, but not really being so, .....you should look in the mirror.
You got that right. Jesus' (Yeshua's) teachings which weren't new ideas at all have had so much of other belief systems stitched onto them it resembles a religious Frankenstein monster.
Interesting comment. Why would you say that Jesus’ teachings were not new ideas? I have an opinion on this, but I would like to hear your viewpoint.
Also.... you went on to say that Jesus’ teachings had “other belief systems” stitched on to them. I am wondering about that. Can you elaborate?
Thanks,
Because there were many similiar predecessor religions to Christianity. Here Richard Carrier details several, and also some that are claimed but are not actually do not feature a dying and rising god like Christianity:
Ok, I’ll play...... care to name these so-called predecessor religions and explain why you think that way?
It would be best if you would use your own words in explanation.....that way we can avoid a cut and paste war that is will only prove to be boring.
You may want to start with Mithra. I see that mentioned quite a bit. Let’s compare dates as well as the completeness of writings and while we are at it, let’s see if it turns out that the Roman Mithra teachings were in fact influenced by Jewish writings.
Over to you.....
But, family bbq this afternoon, so my responses will be delayed.....
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
“One must state it plainly. Religion comes from the period of human prehistory where nobody—not even the mighty Democritus who concluded that all matter was made from atoms—had the smallest idea what was going on. It comes from the bawling and fearful infancy of our species, and is a babyish attempt to meet our inescapable demand for knowledge (as well as for comfort, reassurance and other infantile needs). Today the least educated of my children knows much more about the natural order than any of the founders of religion, and one would like to think—though the connection is not a fully demonstrable one—that this is why they seem so uninterested in sending fellow humans to hell.” ― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
“Philosophy begins where religion ends, just as by analogy chemistry begins where alchemy runs out, and astronomy takes the place of astrology.” ― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
Seems to that “philosophy” was advanced long before science. These writers from 2000 years ago were not just ignorant sheep herders.
Further,,,, what about Plato, Socrates..... .... were they examples of the “ bawling and fearful infancy”:of our species?
Hitchens sounds like a petulant child, angry that the pablum he serves up is not gobbled up by all.
Look at what he actually says.... look at how he tries to characterize people of the past, No, they were not stupid and intellectually dense.
This Hitchens quote is a pure miss on many levels.
Last edited by TF49; 06/20/20.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
Voodoo is a religion, and includes may Catholic elements, more than you probably imagine. As for claiming to be religion, but not really being so, .....you should look in the mirror.
You got that right. Jesus' (Yeshua's) teachings which weren't new ideas at all have had so much of other belief systems stitched onto them it resembles a religious Frankenstein monster.
Interesting comment. Why would you say that Jesus’ teachings were not new ideas? I have an opinion on this, but I would like to hear your viewpoint.
Also.... you went on to say that Jesus’ teachings had “other belief systems” stitched on to them. I am wondering about that. Can you elaborate?
Thanks,
Because there were many similiar predecessor religions to Christianity. Here Richard Carrier details several, and also some that are claimed but are not actually do not feature a dying and rising god like Christianity:
Ok, I’ll play...... care to name these so-called predecessor religions and explain why you think that way?
It would be best if you would use your own words in explanation.....that way we can avoid a cut and paste war that is will only prove to be boring.
You may want to start with Mithra. I see that mentioned quite a bit. Let’s compare dates as well as the completeness of writings and while we are at it, let’s see if it turns out that the Roman Mithra teachings were in fact influenced by Jewish writings.
Over to you.....
But, family bbq this afternoon, so my responses will be delayed.....
Have a great BBQ and day, TF and thanks for your time, knowledge and insight on this subject.
Ecc 10:2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.
A Nation which leaves God behind is soon left behind.
"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".
Colossians 2:8: "Be careful that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition, based on the elements of the world, rather than Christ."
“When debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.” - Socrates