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Do you operate with this personal relationship/experience being the means of obtaining knowledge of God and growing spiritually? It is a means of obtaining knowledge of God and growing spiritually. Obtaining knowledge of God and growing spiritually isn’t only accomplished through the Bible. Can you give examples of the means outside of scripture? Yes. Examples of a means outside of the Bible include ALL of the early first century Christians who obtained knowledge of God and grew spiritually outside of the Bible, which didn’t even exist yet. Christianity spread like an airborne disease during its extreme persecution years before the Bible ever existed. These people were not motivated by, guided by, nor comforted by the Bible which didn’t even exist yet. They knew the way and the truth and the life WITHOUT having a Bible to tell them. Thanks. That’s pretty general and I’m not finding anything to sink my teeth into; nothing solid. Do you have personal examples of how you have grown in knowledge and in your relationship with God outside what we find in scripture?
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The bible supports predestination. An omniscient God knowing the end from the beginning, etc.... When I read what Paul writes in Romans 8 where he uses the word translate as predestined I see God as the actor and predestined as a verb. That gives a very different understanding of the concept, an action by God rather than God’s knowledge of something. Without and before getting into a break down of what Paul means I have to acknowledge that Paul is saying that God, in some way, is actively involved.
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From Lecture 1 I got that since Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, and Edwards all agree on the Augustinian view of predestination, and in light of the sheer power of their Biblical scholarship, and that they command as much respect as they do, that that should lend much more credence toward me believing in it too. It also reaffirms that God makes His choice about our salvation and ultimate destination before we are even born...and it reaffirms that what God foresees in our life has nothing whatsoever to do with His choice regarding our salvation and ultimate destination...without any consideration of His foreknowledge of our acceptance or rejection with respect to the proclamation of the Gospel. From Lecture 2 I got that if you don’t believe the part of the Westminster Confession containing these words: “God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and immutably (that is, without possibility of changing it) ordain whatsoever comes to pass;”— that you are an atheist. It affirms that God is sovereign, and by His sovereignty He decrees anything and everything that happens. And He sovereignly elects, chooses, and redeems some, and the rest He passes over...before they were even born, and without regard to His foreknowledge of their acceptance or rejection of the Gospel. One group gets mercy (salvation), and the other group gets the justice that they deserve (destruction). I can’t remember the exact differences at the moment but Luther and Calvin differed on their understanding of predestination. Luther held the view that Christ’s work was for all mankind and not just the elect. I’m working on memory but to the best of my recollection Augustine began studying and writing about the subject later in life and hadn’t fully worked through the matter. Both Calvin and Luther studied his work but differed in their understanding of what he was saying. This was in part because Augustine hadn’t worked all the way through but mostly because of differences in their approach to study. Calvin was more Platonic and Luther Aristotelian in technique.
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Campfire Ranger
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Thanks. That’s pretty general and I’m not finding anything to sink my teeth into; nothing solid. So ‘you’ consider it “pretty general” and can’t find “anything” to sink your teeth into regarding the facts that early first century Christianity began as a small, despised, illicit religious sect, they were treated as criminals, and endured 300 years of empire-wide hostility and persecution, yet Christianity continued to gain adherents among both Jews and non-Jews throughout the Roman world, and ‘they are’ responsible for the survival of the faith that means so much to us today...and they did ALL of this without the Christian Bible which didn’t even exist yet...and ‘you’ find “nothing solid” about any of it...?
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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You are the man, a true student of the word. I hope you have time to finish them all. Don’t know if I will. Gotta tell ya’ though...I still don’t abide by the theology of predestination. At all. Even more so after those lectures. I encourage you to finish, you haven't made it to the meat. I'm not trying to persuade you to change your doctrine, but to know your opponent. Consider it a challenge. ![grin grin](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/default/grin.gif)
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FWIW, there are two pastors that I love, respect, and listen to nearly daily. RC Sproul and Ray Stedman. Ray Stedman believes in Free Will. I probably listen to him more than Sproul, even though I differ from him on Free Will. Its worth noting that John Piper studied under Ray Stedman for some time. Piper being a well respected Reformed Baptist (predestination).
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Thanks. That’s pretty general and I’m not finding anything to sink my teeth into; nothing solid. So ‘you’ consider it “pretty general” and can’t find “anything” to sink your teeth into regarding the facts that early first century Christianity began as a small, despised, illicit religious sect, they were treated as criminals, and endured 300 years of empire-wide hostility and persecution, yet Christianity continued to gain adherents among both Jews and non-Jews throughout the Roman world, and ‘they are’ responsible for the survival of the faith that means so much to us today...and they did ALL of this without the Christian Bible which didn’t even exist yet...and ‘you’ find “nothing solid” about any of it...? I am asking you for specifics about the knowledge that you have gained and the growth in God that you have seen outside what is taught to and understood regarding scripture.
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Campfire Ranger
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So you have no answer, or choose not to provide an answer, to ‘my’ question above...? Got it. I am asking you for specifics about the knowledge that you have gained and the growth in God that you have seen outside what is taught to and understood regarding scripture. Well earlier you asked for examples of “obtaining knowledge of God and growing spiritually” outside of Biblical guidance, and I provided you with some very real and solid examples. And you dismissed them out of hand.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Your view of the early church is very general but you offered that view as a premise for how the Christian is to operate. That being the case, and you practicing your faith through that means, you should be able to give a few (but I would anticipate a great many personal examples) personal examples of growth in knowledge about God and so forth.
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Campfire Ranger
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Your view of the early church is very general but you offered that view as a premise for how the Christian is to operate. My view of the early church is accurate, and I offered that view as examples of people obtaining knowledge of God and growing spiritually outside of the guidance of the Bible.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Campfire Ranger
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This predestination thing is really easy for me. It's like when someone starts a company. Many are called. Some are chosen (hired). (See Revelation 17:14) Some are faithful and keep their jobs. From the very beginning of the thought to have a business some were predestined to be workers and some were predestined not to be workers. No individual was predestined to be a worker. No one was predestined no to be a worker.
It seems someone already posted....... we are making this way to complicated.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
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Your view of the early church is very general but you offered that view as a premise for how the Christian is to operate. My view of the early church is accurate, and I offered that view as examples of people obtaining knowledge of God and growing spiritually outside of the guidance of the Bible. So you can’t or won’t give personal examples?
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Campfire Oracle
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This predestination thing is really easy for me. It's like when someone starts a company. Many are called. Some are chosen (hired). (See Revelation 17:14) Some are faithful and keep their jobs. From the very beginning of the thought to have a business some were predestined to be workers and some were predestined not to be workers. No individual was predestined to be a worker. No one was predestined no to be a worker.
It seems someone already posted....... we are making this way to complicated. This. Pretty easy to predestine some will go to Hell rejecting Christ when they are freaking people and are given free will. Hell, some will even vote dimocrap.
Last edited by jaguartx; 09/05/20.
Ecc 10:2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.
A Nation which leaves God behind is soon left behind.
"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".
I Dindo Nuffin
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Campfire Regular
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How about starting a new thread soon. Maybe list 3 things you are thankful to God for. You could post numerous times. I see a great benefit there. God gets glory, & there's no debate. It's not that I haven't enjoyed reading everyone's views, but it doesn't seem to be very fruitful to argue this much further. At the moment I see everyone standing firm on this subject in their own belief. BTW Good morning & Godbless
Romans 5:1
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Campfire Outfitter
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One of the first things Jesus says is repent. Jesus says more than once, "If you love Me you will keep my commandments." James says, "Faith without works is dead." If someone does not display obedience to the New Testament, they can't be saved. Jesus says, "By their fruit you will know them." AMEN, narrow is the way
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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Campfire Ranger
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You should be able to give a few (but I would anticipate a great many) personal examples of growth in knowledge about God and so forth. You’re asking for detailed and personal and very private and specific experiences and results of my life and my walk with God. So you can’t or won’t give personal examples? I won’t.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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You should be able to give a few (but I would anticipate a great many) personal examples of growth in knowledge about God and so forth. You’re asking for detailed and personal and very private and specific experiences and results of my life and my walk with God. So you can’t or won’t give personal examples? I won’t. As Biden would say, Come on Man! Then whats your advice to a new Christian? How do they grow in knowledge depart from the Bible?
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The bible supports predestination. An omniscient God knowing the end from the beginning, etc.... When I read what Paul writes in Romans 8 where he uses the word translate as predestined I see God as the actor and predestined as a verb. That gives a very different understanding of the concept, an action by God rather than God’s knowledge of something. Without and before getting into a break down of what Paul means I have to acknowledge that Paul is saying that God, in some way, is actively involved. It doesn't matter who says what, if the end is known from the beginning, the world and all its events are determined. That is the very definition of determinism.
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Campfire Ranger
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Then what’s your advice to a new Christian? How do they grow in knowledge apart from the Bible? That Jesus doesn’t want robots. He wants fellowship. That obtaining knowledge of God and growing spiritually isn’t ‘only’ accomplished through Bible reading. That reading the Bible isn’t the ‘only’ avenue to know the way and the truth and the life. That the Spirit of the Living God dwells inside of you, and reading the Bible isn’t the ‘only’ way to know this. Not to place ‘all’ of your faith and trust and abilities and confidence and hope in ‘only’ the Bible...rather than in the Living God Himself. To pursue and petition God through prayer, rather than ‘just’ through Bible reading. To trust that God is leading and guiding them, and not ‘only’ by reading the Bible. To ask God for wisdom and discernment, and know that He’ll provide it, other than by ‘just’ reading the Bible. That God can use circumstances...and not ‘just’ reading the Bible...to communicate with you, and provide you with wisdom to discern His hand in the circumstances. To not be motivated by fear and uncertainty, but instead by faith...and realize that it doesn’t ‘only’ come from reading the Bible. To take Jesus into consideration in whatever you do, and seek God first, and trust that the things you need in life will be added to you...and know that this isn’t ‘only’ accomplished by reading the Bible. And to seek to line up your life with God’s design, and know that God faithfully reveals the specifics of His will, and not ‘only’ by reading the Bible.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Campfire Ranger
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Then what’s your advice to a new Christian? How do they grow in knowledge apart from the Bible? That Jesus doesn’t want robots. He wants fellowship. That obtaining knowledge of God and growing spiritually isn’t ‘only’ accomplished through Bible reading. That reading the Bible isn’t the ‘only’ avenue to know the way and the truth and the life. That the Spirit of the Living God dwells inside of you, and reading the Bible isn’t the ‘only’ way to know this. Not to place ‘all’ of your faith and trust and abilities and confidence and hope in ‘only’ the Bible...rather than in the Living God Himself. To pursue and petition God through prayer, rather than ‘just’ through Bible reading. To trust that God is leading and guiding them, and not ‘only’ by reading the Bible. To ask God for wisdom and discernment, and know that He’ll provide it, other than by ‘just’ reading the Bible. That God can use circumstances...and not ‘just’ reading the Bible...to communicate with you, and provide you with wisdom to discern His hand in the circumstances. To not be motivated by fear and uncertainty, but instead by faith...and realize that it doesn’t ‘only’ come from reading the Bible. To take Jesus into consideration in whatever you do, and seek God first, and trust that the things you need in life will be added to you...and know that this isn’t ‘only’ accomplished by reading the Bible. And to seek to line up your life with God’s design, and know that God faithfully reveals the specifics of His will, and not ‘only’ by reading the Bible. What do you do with, "There is no other name than Jesus by which we are saved,"? Could we learn that from our own minds?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
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