Anybody know where a fellow could find an accurate timeline of the different events of the battle. Particularly Benteen’s arrival on Reno Hill, Captain Weir’s advance to Weir point, and Custer’s Battalion’s fight to the death. (I know that can’t be nailed down) The fight took place before time zones were established in the USA. But the officers of the 7th had their watches set to Chicago time. Judging from that fact, I’m guessing sunrise would have been 6:30 or 7:00 AM by their clocks, sunset closer to 10:30 PM? That sound right? 7mm
"Preserving the Constitution, fighting off the nibblers and chippers, even nibblers and chippers with good intentions, was once regarded by conservatives as the first duty of the citizen. It still is." � Wesley Pruden
Go to the Little Bighorn Message Board. There are folks there that despite having studied the records and visited the battlefield have serious differences of opinion on every aspect of the battle.
Personally I look at Capt. Benteen as the hero of the battle and I have wondered why Gen. Custer didn't send him on the mission that Reno took. I don't believe Benteen would have broken and retreated as did Reno.
Custer didn't much care for Benteen but had to know he was a capable officer.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
It was pretty obvious to everybody, even some outside the regiment, that Benteen hated Custer. The regimental officers were divided in their loyalty to their commander. One group made up of Custer’s family and friends, another group who felt little or no loyalty to him at all. If I had been Custer, I would have transferred Benteen, for both our sakes. Major Reno is another that I might have tried to replace. Between the bottle and His brooding personality, he had few friends as it was. Seniority be damned, I think probably Miles Keogh was arguably the most capable and trustworthy of all the officers. At least that’s the impression I have gotten from my reading. The fact that 3 subordinate sergeants died defending him says a lot. As to the original topic of this thread, I know there are several other Custerphiles among our members. There are several with much higher knowledge than mine, and I thought someone could point me in the right direction. 7mm
"Preserving the Constitution, fighting off the nibblers and chippers, even nibblers and chippers with good intentions, was once regarded by conservatives as the first duty of the citizen. It still is." � Wesley Pruden
It was pretty obvious to everybody, even some outside the regiment, that Benteen hated Custer. The regimental officers were divided in their loyalty to their commander. One group made up of Custer’s family and friends, another group who felt little or no loyalty to him at all. If I had been Custer, I would have transferred Benteen, for both our sakes. Major Reno is another that I might have tried to replace. Between the bottle and His brooding personality, he had few friends as it was. Seniority be damned, I think probably Miles Keogh was arguably the most capable and trustworthy of all the officers. At least that’s the impression I have gotten from my reading. The fact that 3 subordinate sergeants died defending him says a lot. As to the original topic of this thread, I know there are several other Custerphiles among our members. There are several with much higher knowledge than mine, and I thought someone could point me in the right direction. 7mm
I have become interested recently in the Custer story and now the whole Indian campaign. Shrapnel furthered that interest. I sent him a PM and he graciously gave me his time on the topic. There is a lot to wade through.
I have wondered the same as you on why he didn't move Benteen and Reno. My guess is he was confident on his own ability and also thought Benteen and Reno would do their duty as professionals regardless of their animosity. I would think Custer would have seen that type of issue throughout is tenure and think it beneath him to show concern.
Would not have made a difference. They were out numbered & out gunned. Sitting Bull had all the cards.
It is a certain thing that Benteen advised Custer that it would be best to keep the whole outfit together considering the size of the trail they were on and was rebuffed. I have been there several times and I believe had Custer followed Benteen's advice and attacked the village with all 12 companies including the ammunition mules, on the flat ground that Reno made to initial attack on there is no way the Indians could have overcome the superior Springfield rifles. If you notice there were 7 companies on worse ground that held off the Indians for the next 36 hours until General Terry's approach caused the Indians to head for the hills.
As to why Custer did not get rid of Benteen, I suspect General Phil Sheridan wanted Benteen in the 7th Cavalry as a good influence on Custer. I think it notable that Sheridan found no fault with Benteen, Reno, or Terry. And President Grant blamed the whole fiasco on Custer.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
I have a friend who served in Vietnam as a helicopter crew man/chief.
He was on a mission in Cambodia where the south Vietnamese were over run, they then broke rank and went into a full out every man for him self retreat.
He believes the Custer battlefield and what he saw in Cambodia was very similar.
Last edited by Angus1895; 05/28/22.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
I have a friend who served in Vietnam as a helicopter crew man/chief.
He was on a mission in Cambodia where the south Vietnamese were over run, they then broke rank and went into a full out every man for him self retreat.
He believes the Custer battlefield and what he saw in Cambodia was very similar.
That is how Captain Benteen described the Last Stand Hill area. "There was no line on the battle field; you can take a handful of corn and scatter it over the floor and make just such lines."
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Anybody know where a fellow could find an accurate timeline of the different events of the battle. Particularly Benteen’s arrival on Reno Hill, Captain Weir’s advance to Weir point, and Custer’s Battalion’s fight to the death. (I know that can’t be nailed down) The fight took place before time zones were established in the USA. But the officers of the 7th had their watches set to Chicago time. Judging from that fact, I’m guessing sunrise would have been 6:30 or 7:00 AM by their clocks, sunset closer to 10:30 PM? That sound right? 7mm
I'd suggest visiting in person...walking or even driving the geography of the battle, realizing how spread out everything was, and talking to the local historian/ranger is really worth it.
Also don't forget to stop at the trading post right at the entrance. There's some neat stuff there and a retired Indian who is very nice and will talk your head off about Indian US relations...he referred to everything as Indian, he is one, so I feel no guilt concerning political correctness.
Would not have made a difference. They were out numbered & out gunned. Sitting Bull had all the cards.
It is a certain thing that Benteen advised Custer that it would be best to keep the whole outfit together considering the size of the trail they were on and was rebuffed. I have been there several times and I believe had Custer followed Benteen's advice and attacked the village with all 12 companies including the ammunition mules, on the flat ground that Reno made to initial attack on there is no way the Indians could have overcome the superior Springfield rifles. If you notice there were 7 companies on worse ground that held off the Indians for the next 36 hours until General Terry's approach caused the Indians to head for the hills.
As to why Custer did not get rid of Benteen, I suspect General Phil Sheridan wanted Benteen in the 7th Cavalry as a good influence on Custer. I think it notable that Sheridan found no fault with Benteen, Reno, or Terry. And President Grant blamed the whole fiasco on Custer.
Sheridan kept Benteen in place for precisely that reason. (Benteen's drinking doesn't pop up until quite a bit later in his career.) Also keep in mind that in the "old army" -- which is effectively what the US reverted to after the Civil War -- the officer corps was much smaller and it wasn't as easy to just send away subordinates or reassign officers. Men had relationships all the way up the chain of command and sometimes even into the White House as a result of their war service. So altering a fellow officer's career for political reasons could be dicey and often backfired.
June 25 sunrise 5:21 MDT, sunset 9:02 MDT. A good 30-45 minutes of usable daylight on either side of those times in the summer. Hotter than the gate hinges of hell from about 10am until 7pm or so that time of year too.
Terry had offered the gatling guns and Custer had declined. Custer so informed his officers on the evening of his first day’s march. “He had declined the offer of the Gatling guns,” Captain Edward S. Godfrey recalled, “for the reason that they might hamper our movements or march at a critical moment, because of the inferior horses and of the difficult nature of the country.
June 25 sunrise 5:21 MDT, sunset 9:02 MDT. A good 30-45 minutes of usable daylight on either side of those times in the summer. Hotter than the gate hinges of hell from about 10am until 7pm or so that time of year too.
That is nearly the longest day of the year in terms of daylight. It is commonly thought that time was kept according to Chicago time, as they didn’t have time zones in those days. Custer left the Crow’s Nest early in the morning which is about 15 miles from the Little Bighorn River.
Custer sent Benteen in his oblique before Custer and Reno headed down the South fork of Reno Creek to where it ran into the middle fork of Reno creek. Custer sent 3 companies with Benteen and then took the other 8 companies toward the Little Bighorn, leaving one other company with the pack train.
Although some claim the cavalry mounts were tired, I doubt they were as weary as some think, and Custer was probably able to get to the middle fork of Reno creek in a couple hours.
Once Custer and Reno converged on the middle fork, they were on either side of the South fork and to get 8 companies to cross a morass, it would take some time. More time passes and at the site of the Lone Teepee, Fred Gerard, a scout for Custer, saw some Indians on a bluff above and others that took off in the direction of the Little Bighorn.
Custer then sends Reno down the middle fork of Reno Creek to the Little Bighorn with the orders to strike the village from the south and Custer would support him with the whole outfit. I believe Reno thought Custer would come down the Little Bighorn behind him but Custer went in the same direction on the East side of the Little Bighorn behind the ridge that kept him out of sight of the Indian village.
More time passes and Reno is met with heavy resistance and suffers many casualties. He says “every man for himself” and heads for the high ground leaving wounded and no order in retreat.
Custer has continued down the Little Bighorn and near the center of the village has Yates, Calhoun and Keough deploy to engage the Indians and he takes a course to strike the village in anticipation of the scattering of the women and children to allow containment of the non-combatants which would lead to a swift victory.
This is now in the afternoon and Custer’s fight continues until 4:30 or so with no support as expected from Benteen, who finally reached Reno on Reno hill in a mess that needed support and order. Captain Weir made an advance toward the firing of Custer’s companies, hoping to give aid to Custer, but even finally with Reno and Benteen in support, Weir could not make their way North, and had to retreat back to Reno/Benteen Hill.
It is supposed that Custer was completely annihilated by this time which should be around 5:00. The battle at Reno/Benteen site, continued on into the evening and throughout the night the remaining 7th cavalry heard chanting and victory celebrations by the Indians. Fighting started again in the morning until mid afternoon the day of June 26, before the Indians packed up and left.
So much conjecture and myth surround this whole battle. Most of what is believed is from baseless criticism that survives due to so many unknown circumstances.
Did Custer think he would prevail? Absolutely.
Did Custer and 220 men under his immediate command die? Absolutely.
Could the 7th cavalry have prevailed on June 25? Certainly, but it didn’t happen that way.
If Custer had survived, the story would be dramatically different with his account, where without it, he has become the goat and history has not been kind to him. He died a hero’s death in 1876 to a shocked nation in celebration of the 100th anniversary of their independence. 146 years later, his image is tarnished and only the survivors get to tell their part.
As was brought out earlier, Custer didn’t take Gatling guns with him, and had he done so, he would have most certainly survived. Not due to the Gatling guns, but due to how much slower he could have progressed and he would have arrived a day or two later and come upon the battlefield that Gibbon and Terry would have been involved.
Originally Posted by duke61
Terry had offered the gatling guns and Custer had declined. Custer so informed his officers on the evening of his first day’s march. “He had declined the offer of the Gatling guns,” Captain Edward S. Godfrey recalled, “for the reason that they might hamper our movements or march at a critical moment, because of the inferior horses and of the difficult nature of the country.
We will be camped at the 7th camp campground on Reno Creek from June 24-26 if anyone is interested in meeting there. I will be spending time with Battlefield Rangers and surveying the area again, I never tire of the history there. We just spent a few days there last week looking at possible areas that could have been used to cache some of the articles taken from the dead soldiers. You don’t get the full effect of what happened if you don’t see the backside of the battlefield and where Custer and Reno came down the south fork of Reno Creek.
The location of the Lone Teepee is a significant part of the pre-battle organization of forces and where it is located. I have a very rare copy of the book “The Search For The Lone Teepee” which is an interesting insight to that historical location.
Unfortunately, the Little Bighorn is about 2500 miles from home. I’d love to visit it again, buy I don’t know if it’s in the cards. Hastings, I doubt Sheridan would’ve had much praise for Reno or Benteen if he’d been honest. Custer was his fair haired boy who could do no wrong throughout the Civil War and the Indian Wars. Hell, without Sheridan’s influence, Custer may well have been given a dishonorable discharge over the AWOL and ordering deserters to be shot in 1867! At the time he praised Reno and Benteen, everybody from Grant on down the chain of command was in full CYOA mode. Congress was grumbling about the Army’s ineffectiveness against the Sioux. Army Budget cuts were a definite possibility, and that meant everybody would lose. No promotions, fewer commands, less pay and food were a real threat to the Army. There was a full consensus among all the officers to let the dead Custer bear the blame. General Nelson Miles was the only high ranking officer I’ve ever heard of to praise Custer’s actions at LBH. 7mm
"Preserving the Constitution, fighting off the nibblers and chippers, even nibblers and chippers with good intentions, was once regarded by conservatives as the first duty of the citizen. It still is." � Wesley Pruden
The most accurate portrayal of what actually happened I believe is James Donovan’s book “A Terrible Glory”. The chapter notes in themselves are a wealth of information. The clocks were set officially to Ft Lincoln time, the same as Chicago time. It was someone’s job to document the chronology of the days movements and somewhere I have seen a record of what is known of the days movement in Chicago time.
"I was born in the log cabin I helped my grandfather build"
I read that Sherman appointed Phil Sheridan because he hated the Indians as much as he and Grant did. They all wanted them eradicated. There was enough mayhem to go around. The Army would attack villages and murder innocent women and children. They broke every treaty they made with the Indians. The Indians in turn would rape, murder torture and pillage settlers. Custer made a treaty with the Sous a few years I think before Little Big Horn that gave them the Black Hills but the discovery of gold there rendered that treaty null. His mission was to destroy but it got turned upside down. It is a sad part of our history. The Indians won that battle but were destined to loose the war.
I read that Sherman appointed Phil Sheridan because he hated the Indians as much as he and Grant did. They all wanted them eradicated. There was enough mayhem to go around. The Army would attack villages and murder innocent women and children. They broke every treaty they made with the Indians. The Indians in turn would rape, murder torture and pillage settlers. Custer made a treaty with the Sous a few years I think before Little Big Horn that gave them the Black Hills but the discovery of gold there rendered that treaty null. His mission was to destroy but it got turned upside down. It is a sad part of our history. The Indians won that battle but were destined to loose the war.
Sounds like some revisionist history to me...there's a nice timeline of massacres and events leading up to the battle in the ranger's station. And, although everyone seems to vilify Custer...iirc the Crow really liked him because he represented their interests against the Sioux. There's also some talk of an Indian mistress with Custer, I'm not sure if it's a myth or what.
I'm really interested in the whole scenario since I spent some time out there last year. I'll get to reading about it more once I retire next year.
PS Not trying to be argumentative...just throwing my two cents out there. If I'm wrong then Mea Culpa.
I just visited the site a few days ago. It was my first visit to the actual battlefield, and to say I was blown away was an understatement. It is not at all as I had envisioned it all these years. Seeing it in person allowed me to see elevation and big picture perspective. It is very easy to “Monday Morning Quarterback” the entire military operation after the dust has settled. I’m sure some things were probably quite different in real time. A few things that came to mind while on the battlefield, was why in the hell did Custer choose THIS location as his point of ambush? I mean, he had the higher ground and all, but was vastly outnumbered with little to no cover for a stealthy approach. It appears from his final resting place that he was in full view of the entire Indian Camp the second he crested the ridge. So many questions that perhaps will never be answered with anything more than speculation.
Stephen Ambrose addressed the mistress rumor in his book. If I recall correctly, the Indian woman he was supposed to have had an affair with, was several months pregnant before the would have met. Somebody correct me if they know more about that.
Deadlines and commitments, what to leave in, what to leave out...
I read that Sherman appointed Phil Sheridan because he hated the Indians as much as he and Grant did. They all wanted them eradicated. There was enough mayhem to go around. The Army would attack villages and murder innocent women and children. They broke every treaty they made with the Indians. The Indians in turn would rape, murder torture and pillage settlers. Custer made a treaty with the Sous a few years I think before Little Big Horn that gave them the Black Hills but the discovery of gold there rendered that treaty null. His mission was to destroy but it got turned upside down. It is a sad part of our history. The Indians won that battle but were destined to loose the war.
Not entirely true.
Custer never attacked any Indian village without orders from the United States Army. Custer had no dealings with the Black Hills Treaty, he was sent to the Black Hills in 1874 to explore for gold, as there were already whites in the Black Hills looking for gold.
Once gold was officially discovered the United States tried to buy the Black Hills back from the Sioux, but the Sioux wouldn’t sell.
The treaty was made with the Sioux, but if you really want to pick nits, the reason the Crow Indians scouted for the Army was due to their hatred of the Sioux for taking the Black Hills from the Crow, years before.
Manifest destiny was not only a white proposition.
White guilt plays into the philosophy of 21st century critics, claiming poor treatment to the Indians of all persuasions. You won’t find in any historical record of a conquering nation that tried to assimilate the conquered people into that society as America did. Many of the attempts at this assimilation was condemned as trying to destroy the Indian and their culture.
Although not perfect, the attempt created much of the conflict between both cultures that didn’t make either side totally wrong, just vastly different. This battle continues today…
Stephen Ambrose addressed the mistress rumor in his book. If I recall correctly, the Indian woman he was supposed to have had an affair with, was several months pregnant before the would have met. Somebody correct me if they know more about that.
Probably not, Custer had STDs that supposedly left him sterile. After all the years he was married to Libby, she never conceived…
I don't know, but I have an Uberti replica of the sidearm carried by officers and cavalrymen there, i.e., carried by Custer's 7th Cavalry.
Same exact markings and configuration (old style frame, sights, and ejector thumb piece), to include being marked 7th Cavalry, serial numbers in all the right places, inspection marks, etc.. Only marking that's different is that it doesn't have Sam Colts NY address on the top of the barrel. Instead, it has the address of Cimarron Firearms there.
I don't know, but I have an Uberti replica of the sidearm carried by officers and cavalrymen there, i.e., carried by Custer's 7th Cavalry.
Same exact markings and configuration (old style frame, sights, and ejector thumb piece), to include being marked 7th Cavalry, serial numbers in all the right places, inspection marks, etc.. Only marking that's different is that it doesn't have Sam Colts NY address on the top of the barrel. Instead, it has the address of Cimarron Firearms there.
I have one of these. Not a .442 Tranter as allegedly Custer had. But mine is in .450 Adams.
Founder Ancient Order of the 1895 Winchester
"Come, shall we go and kill us venison? And yet it irks me the poor dappled fools, Being native burghers of this desert city, Should in their own confines with forked heads Have their round haunches gored."
I do not claim to be an authority. I can only opine on what I've read and there's a lot of different stories. The book "Citizen Sherman" was pretty good but you never what the author's perspective was. He was a pretty complicated man also ineffective after the war. I think his main claim to fame was his brutal march to the sea.
Was it true that the Sioux squaws cut Custer's ears off and cut out his tongue?
So if a fellow wanted to read up on the battle and Custer, what would be the best book or two, out of the hundreds, to read? What about the best documentary on the subject?
As others have said, Donovan’s “Terrible Trumpets”. It’s the book that introduced me to the LBH, and since then, my fascination with the subject has expanded my reading by a bunch. Philbrick’s “Last Stand”, Evan’s “Son Of The Morning Star”, and Most recently “Custer’s Trials”, by CJ Stiles. Several others as well. The Southern Cheyenne held Custer to be a relative through his “marriage” to Mahnatosee, a Cheyenne Princess after the Battle of Washita. They prevented the Sioux from desecrating his remains. That’s one story anyway. Could also be his premature balding and short cropped hair made his scalp uninteresting. They tore his brother Tom to shreds. Rain In The Face claimed to have cut out his heart. 7mm
"Preserving the Constitution, fighting off the nibblers and chippers, even nibblers and chippers with good intentions, was once regarded by conservatives as the first duty of the citizen. It still is." � Wesley Pruden
I Love this thread! I’m obsessed with two battles in history, Gettysburg and Little Big Horn! I can’t read enough about both battles. I’ve been to Gettysburg and was in absolute awe and amazement. I will one day visit LBH and am sure I will have the same feelings!
"I refuse to waste my common sense on those who have been educated beyond their intelligence"
All you need to know about Democrats is they call American citizens "Deplorables" and illegal immigrants "Dreamers"!
I read that Sherman appointed Phil Sheridan because he hated the Indians as much as he and Grant did. They all wanted them eradicated. There was enough mayhem to go around. The Army would attack villages and murder innocent women and children. They broke every treaty they made with the Indians. The Indians in turn would rape, murder torture and pillage settlers. Custer made a treaty with the Sous a few years I think before Little Big Horn that gave them the Black Hills but the discovery of gold there rendered that treaty null. His mission was to destroy but it got turned upside down. It is a sad part of our history. The Indians won that battle but were destined to loose the war.
Not entirely true.
Custer never attacked any Indian village without orders from the United States Army. Custer had no dealings with the Black Hills Treaty, he was sent to the Black Hills in 1874 to explore for gold, as there were already whites in the Black Hills looking for gold.
Once gold was officially discovered the United States tried to buy the Black Hills back from the Sioux, but the Sioux wouldn’t sell.
The treaty was made with the Sioux, but if you really want to pick nits, the reason the Crow Indians scouted for the Army was due to their hatred of the Sioux for taking the Black Hills from the Crow, years before.
Manifest destiny was not only a white proposition.
White guilt plays into the philosophy of 21st century critics, claiming poor treatment to the Indians of all persuasions. You won’t find in any historical record of a conquering nation that tried to assimilate the conquered people into that society as America did. Many of the attempts at this assimilation was condemned as trying to destroy the Indian and their culture.
Although not perfect, the attempt created much of the conflict between both cultures that didn’t make either side totally wrong, just vastly different. This battle continues today…
Excellent post!
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
I Love this thread! I’m obsessed with two battles in history, Gettysburg and Little Big Horn! I can’t read enough about both battles. I’ve been to Gettysburg and was in absolute awe and amazement. I will one day visit LBH and am sure I will have the same feelings!
Interesting you mention Gettysburg and another little known Custer engagement. Custer turned Jeb Stuart around, who was supposed to come in the backside and crush the Union between himself and Lee.
All you hear about is Pickett’s charge and Chamberlain at Little Roundtop, not realizing the action of Custer and his 600 Michigan Wolverines, chasing Stuart off and probably saving the day for the Union.
“The Custer Myth” by W A Graham, is one of the best books to find out more factual information than regurgitated stories told to people that get rewritten by different authors with no insight. Graham actually corresponded personally with Benteen and others that survived the battle. This book was written from Graham’s contacts and research in the early 20th century when much of the information wasn’t as polluted as it has become.
I Love this thread! I’m obsessed with two battles in history, Gettysburg and Little Big Horn! I can’t read enough about both battles. I’ve been to Gettysburg and was in absolute awe and amazement. I will one day visit LBH and am sure I will have the same feelings!
When you finally get there be sure to go to the museum at Garryowen and take time to visit the National Cemetery by the visitor's center. Also, try to be there June 25th for the anniversary. I was there for the 125th and hope to be there for the 150th in 4 years.
I've read that a 7th Cavalry mount was found dead at the mouth of the Rosebud with all of the equipment intact including ammo in the saddlebags. There was dried blood on the saddle.
So if a fellow wanted to read up on the battle and Custer, what would be the best book or two, out of the hundreds, to read? What about the best documentary on the subject?
Custer's Last Campaign and Archaeological Perspectives of the Battle of the Little Bighorn are two that I recommend.
I Love this thread! I’m obsessed with two battles in history, Gettysburg and Little Big Horn! I can’t read enough about both battles. I’ve been to Gettysburg and was in absolute awe and amazement. I will one day visit LBH and am sure I will have the same feelings!
Interesting you mention Gettysburg and another little known Custer engagement. Custer turned Jeb Stuart around, who was supposed to come in the backside and crush the Union between himself and Lee.
All you hear about is Pickett’s charge and Chamberlain at Little Roundtop, not realizing the action of Custer and his 600 Michigan Wolverines, chasing Stuart off and probably saving the day for the Union.
“The Custer Myth” by W A Graham, is one of the best books to find out more factual information than regurgitated stories told to people that get rewritten by different authors with no insight. Graham actually corresponded personally with Benteen and others that survived the battle. This book was written from Graham’s contacts and research in the early 20th century when much of the information wasn’t as polluted as it has become.
I've read a lot about Custer and the LBH. Last I read was "A Terrible Glory" by James Donovan. Very well done, I think.
I Love this thread! I’m obsessed with two battles in history, Gettysburg and Little Big Horn! I can’t read enough about both battles. I’ve been to Gettysburg and was in absolute awe and amazement. I will one day visit LBH and am sure I will have the same feelings!
When you finally get there be sure to go to the museum at Garryowen and take time to visit the National Cemetery by the visitor's center. Also, try to be there June 25th for the anniversary. I was there for the 125th and hope to be there for the 150th in 4 years.
No museum at Garryowen. Chris Kortlander sold it about 1 1/2 years ago, during Covid and it hasn’t since reopened. I wish it was still open, it had lots of resource materials and Chris was a colorful person to talk to…
So if a fellow wanted to read up on the battle and Custer, what would be the best book or two, out of the hundreds, to read? What about the best documentary on the subject?
With hundreds of books written, most are rehashing what others have already said. These are probably the best to start with and there are more, but you could spend a fortune and a life time reading some worthless stuff...
This is a scarce book and covers the actual site of the Lone Teepee, where the first sighting of Indians took place as Custer sent Reno toward the Little Bighorn and the beginning of the battle...
So if a fellow wanted to read up on the battle and Custer, what would be the best book or two, out of the hundreds, to read? What about the best documentary on the subject?
Here are a couple of pertinent magazine articles about the aftermath of the battle and what happened to the personal affects of the soldiers killed with Custer...
Custer was one of the most celebrated Civil War personalities on either side. His accomplishments as well as his brashness and his association with the press, made him a well known war hero. Then to be killed by a bunch of savages, it was more than people would have thought possible.
Questions arose as to how and why such an individual could have been killed and the subsequent depositions and the Reno Court of Inquiry brought attention to Custer and that battle…
I Love this thread! I’m obsessed with two battles in history, Gettysburg and Little Big Horn! I can’t read enough about both battles. I’ve been to Gettysburg and was in absolute awe and amazement. I will one day visit LBH and am sure I will have the same feelings!
Interesting you mention Gettysburg and another little known Custer engagement. Custer turned Jeb Stuart around, who was supposed to come in the backside and crush the Union between himself and Lee.
All you hear about is Pickett’s charge and Chamberlain at Little Roundtop, not realizing the action of Custer and his 600 Michigan Wolverines, chasing Stuart off and probably saving the day for the Union.
“The Custer Myth” by W A Graham, is one of the best books to find out more factual information than regurgitated stories told to people that get rewritten by different authors with no insight. Graham actually corresponded personally with Benteen and others that survived the battle. This book was written from Graham’s contacts and research in the early 20th century when much of the information wasn’t as polluted as it has become.
A most excellent book, great detail on the Stewart beat down (Stewart was over rated). That said and slightly off topic, but had Stewart gone through with his charge on the Union rear, he would have run into the massive reserves behind the Union lines and he probably would have been defeated. The loss at Gettysburg rests entirely on Lee's shoulders.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
I Love this thread! I’m obsessed with two battles in history, Gettysburg and Little Big Horn! I can’t read enough about both battles. I’ve been to Gettysburg and was in absolute awe and amazement. I will one day visit LBH and am sure I will have the same feelings!
Interesting you mention Gettysburg and another little known Custer engagement. Custer turned Jeb Stuart around, who was supposed to come in the backside and crush the Union between himself and Lee.
All you hear about is Pickett’s charge and Chamberlain at Little Roundtop, not realizing the action of Custer and his 600 Michigan Wolverines, chasing Stuart off and probably saving the day for the Union.
“The Custer Myth” by W A Graham, is one of the best books to find out more factual information than regurgitated stories told to people that get rewritten by different authors with no insight. Graham actually corresponded personally with Benteen and others that survived the battle. This book was written from Graham’s contacts and research in the early 20th century when much of the information wasn’t as polluted as it has become.
A most excellent book, great detail on the Stewart beat down (Stewart was over rated). That said and slightly off topic, but had Stewart gone through with his charge on the Union rear, he would have run into the massive reserves behind the Union lines and he probably would have been defeated. The loss at Gettysburg rests entirely on Lee's shoulders.
I assume you mean "Stuart"? As in James Ewell Brown Stuart?
A most excellent book, great detail on the Stewart beat down (Stewart was over rated). That said and slightly off topic, but had Stewart gone through with his charge on the Union rear, he would have run into the massive reserves behind the Union lines and he probably would have been defeated. The loss at Gettysburg rests entirely on Lee's shoulders.
I assume you mean "Stuart"? As in James Ewell Brown Stuart?[/quote]
OF course, yeah like JEB!...over rated...
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Old state Deaf, Dumb, and Blind asylum on south side of 19th st. (Now MLK blvd) between west frontage road of IH-35 and Red River st. in Austin. Custer’s occupation HQ while in the city. His troops bivvied down along the banks of Shoal Creek at west 15th st. in a park area. Now Pease park
Building is still there on Univ. Of Texas property. Naturally the majority of folks around know nothing of this. As is true with most of the history around here.
Last edited by kaywoodie; 05/31/22.
Founder Ancient Order of the 1895 Winchester
"Come, shall we go and kill us venison? And yet it irks me the poor dappled fools, Being native burghers of this desert city, Should in their own confines with forked heads Have their round haunches gored."
A most excellent book, great detail on the Stewart beat down (Stewart was over rated). That said and slightly off topic, but had Stewart gone through with his charge on the Union rear, he would have run into the massive reserves behind the Union lines and he probably would have been defeated. The loss at Gettysburg rests entirely on Lee's shoulders.
I assume you mean "Stuart"? As in James Ewell Brown Stuart?
OF course, yeah like JEB!...over rated...[/quote] We'll just have to disagree on that overrated part
A most excellent book, great detail on the Stewart beat down (Stewart was over rated). That said and slightly off topic, but had Stewart gone through with his charge on the Union rear, he would have run into the massive reserves behind the Union lines and he probably would have been defeated. The loss at Gettysburg rests entirely on Lee's shoulders.
I assume you mean "Stuart"? As in James Ewell Brown Stuart?
OF course, yeah like JEB!...over rated...
We'll just have to disagree on that overrated part[/quote]
He got his ASS kicked by Custer and with a vastly inferior force for starters...
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
A most excellent book, great detail on the Stewart beat down (Stewart was over rated). That said and slightly off topic, but had Stewart gone through with his charge on the Union rear, he would have run into the massive reserves behind the Union lines and he probably would have been defeated. The loss at Gettysburg rests entirely on Lee's shoulders.
I assume you mean "Stuart"? As in James Ewell Brown Stuart?
OF course, yeah like JEB!...over rated...
We'll just have to disagree on that overrated part
He got his ASS kicked by Custer and with a vastly inferior force for starters...[/quote]
3,200 troopers vs. somewhere between 3,400-5,000 exhausted cavalrymen and their mounts who had just ridden nine days straight while raiding Maryland and Pennsylvania. Gregg's Cavalry was fresh and Custer was aggressive
Circumstances make history interesting. JEBS was a no show at Gettysburg and Lee had counted on him. Lee's decision to hold his Generals back from attacking, like Pickett when he entered and could've easily beat the Union forces was the first of a cascade of mistakes that cost him the battle. Had Lee listened to Longstreet he'd have avoided the catastrophe that ensued. Lee was an offensive tactician and Longstreet was a defensive tactician. In the fog of war little mistakes and circumstances that arise make a lot of difference. Had Lee won Gettysburg the war would've likely been prolonged and inevitable defeat of the south cost much more in lives for both sides. The North did not play well nor did the South on occasion. It's just the cost of mayhem and individual opportunity for mayhem in war. Custer suffered the same fate, I think. He was a controversial figure. I read that he and his brother were hated but his brother more than he for what he did to Indians. in my mind Little big Horn was sort of a glimpse of what it would have been like if Lee had won Gettysburg. It prolonged the inevitable.
A most excellent book, great detail on the Stewart beat down (Stewart was over rated). That said and slightly off topic, but had Stewart gone through with his charge on the Union rear, he would have run into the massive reserves behind the Union lines and he probably would have been defeated. The loss at Gettysburg rests entirely on Lee's shoulders.
I assume you mean "Stuart"? As in James Ewell Brown Stuart?
OF course, yeah like JEB!...over rated...
We'll just have to disagree on that overrated part
He got his ASS kicked by Custer and with a vastly inferior force for starters...
3,200 troopers vs. somewhere between 3,400-5,000 exhausted cavalrymen and their mounts who had just ridden nine days straight while raiding Maryland and Pennsylvania. Gregg's Cavalry was fresh and Custer was aggressive[/quote]
Custer had less than 600 Wolverines at Gettysburg. But that was just a start. The end was Custer vs Stuart at Yellow Tavern…
What people don’t know about Custer, eclipses that which they think they know. Most people’s knowledge of Custer is the defeat at LBH.
They know nothing of:
Why he was there What his orders were How plains Indians were fought (this alone changes the perception of fighting Indians) Why he attacked in the 25th instead of the 26th Why Benteen was sent on an oblique Why Reno was sent down Reno Creek Why he went down the River to attack from the East Why Sheridan put so much faith in Custer What didn’t happen that contributed to his defeat
Outside the LBH, Custer’s accomplishments in the Civil War are largely unknown.
Everyone knows of Lee, Grant, Sherman, Longstreet, Forrest and so on, but few even know that at Appomattox, Custer captured some of Lee’s artillery and forced Lee to surrender to Grant. Phil Sheridan bought the table the treaty and gave it to Custer’s wife, Libby with this note:
“Permit me to say, Madam,” Sheridan wrote to Libbie, “that there is scarcely an individual in our service who has contributed more to bring about this desirable result than your gallant husband.”
After Libbie’s death in 1933, her will specified that the table be given to the Smithsonian Institution.
Like Custer or hate him, history hasn’t been kind to him and most people don’t know what they think they know as they criticize him…
A most excellent book, great detail on the Stewart beat down (Stewart was over rated). That said and slightly off topic, but had Stewart gone through with his charge on the Union rear, he would have run into the massive reserves behind the Union lines and he probably would have been defeated. The loss at Gettysburg rests entirely on Lee's shoulders.
I assume you mean "Stuart"? As in James Ewell Brown Stuart?
OF course, yeah like JEB!...over rated...
We'll just have to disagree on that overrated part
He got his ASS kicked by Custer and with a vastly inferior force for starters...
3,200 troopers vs. somewhere between 3,400-5,000 exhausted cavalrymen and their mounts who had just ridden nine days straight while raiding Maryland and Pennsylvania. Gregg's Cavalry was fresh and Custer was aggressive
Custer had less than 600 Wolverines at Gettysburg. But that was just a start. The end was Custer vs Stuart at Yellow Tavern…[/quote] Custer had that. But Custer wasn't in charge. It was Gregg's Cavalry and they had 3,200 Troopers at East Cavalry field
"George Armstrong Custer. Custer was assigned to the division of Brig. Gen. Judson Kilpatrick but happened to be on loan to David Gregg and requested permission from Gregg to join his fight. Altogether, 3,250 Union troopers opposed Stuart."
All interesting. Shrap… I thought about some of your ideas as I recently returned from the area. Contemplations come easier to me when I’m on site so to speak. I hope you find the cache of evidence of which you search. When the bands broke camp they fragmented as they always did and after the elation of winning the battle wore off and reality of consequence set in it strikes me that getting rid of evidence would be easiest and fastest if the evidence were thrown in the water. I would also be magnet searching hard in the Bighorn, Yellowstone, Tongue, and others for metal objects, rings, watches, guns, etc. I know a rancher who found a row of singed military buttons on his place among other things. Could it be some of the clothing taken off bodies was later burned along with other flammables? Lastly I know from a very good source of someone who was cleaning out a spring to get the flow back up who found two military rifles in the mud. Seems they would have been thrown in there when the pool was full back in the day? Noting the examples above is what really brought home the “hide it underwater thought” quick and easy.
Just some thoughts.. again I’m hoping your search goes well because any new items or evidence found would be great for the cause of understanding.
Osky
A woman's heart is the hardest rock the Almighty has put on this earth and I can find no sign on it.
Circumstances make history interesting. JEBS was a no show at Gettysburg and Lee had counted on him. Lee's decision to hold his Generals back from attacking, like Pickett when he entered and could've easily beat the Union forces was the first of a cascade of mistakes that cost him the battle. Had Lee listened to Longstreet he'd have avoided the catastrophe that ensued. Lee was an offensive tactician and Longstreet was a defensive tactician. In the fog of war little mistakes and circumstances that arise make a lot of difference. Had Lee won Gettysburg the war would've likely been prolonged and inevitable defeat of the south cost much more in lives for both sides. The North did not play well nor did the South on occasion. It's just the cost of mayhem and individual opportunity for mayhem in war. Custer suffered the same fate, I think. He was a controversial figure. I read that he and his brother were hated but his brother more than he for what he did to Indians. in my mind Little big Horn was sort of a glimpse of what it would have been like if Lee had won Gettysburg. It prolonged the inevitable.
I completely disagree that had Lee been victorious at Gettysburg the "defeat of the South" would have been inevitable.
"George Armstrong Custer. Custer was assigned to the division of Brig. Gen. Judson Kilpatrick but happened to be on loan to David Gregg and requested permission from Gregg to join his fight. Altogether, 3,250 Union troopers opposed Stuart."
Understood, and Custer was never alone in any battle, it was what he did with the cavalry that he had command of that was so decisive. He was not "wait and see," he was always on the attack and with what would be considered a small force against superior odds.
Perfect? no, but as good as Grant or any other general was a tactician, Custer was as good or better, leading men into battle and that is what wins wars.
Growing up in Montana, I was embarrassed to see we had a forest, a county, a town and other notable geographic locations named after a pompous killer that attacked a large gathering of noble Indians camping on the plains of Montana.
It wasn't until I started investigating the Custer Battlefield (that is what they named it and I will still refer to it as that) that I learned of his exploits during the Civil War and subsequent conflicts with Indians and his leading several expeditions on the frontier, that I came to know more of who Custer was and wasn't...
All interesting. Shrap… I thought about some of your ideas as I recently returned from the area. Contemplations come easier to me when I’m on site so to speak. I hope you find the cache of evidence of which you search. When the bands broke camp they fragmented as they always did and after the elation of winning the battle wore off and reality of consequence set in it strikes me that getting rid of evidence would be easiest and fastest if the evidence were thrown in the water. I would also be magnet searching hard in the Bighorn, Yellowstone, Tongue, and others for metal objects, rings, watches, guns, etc. I know a rancher who found a row of singed military buttons on his place among other things. Could it be some of the clothing taken off bodies was later burned along with other flammables? Lastly I know from a very good source of someone who was cleaning out a spring to get the flow back up who found two military rifles in the mud. Seems they would have been thrown in there when the pool was full back in the day? Noting the examples above is what really brought home the “hide it underwater thought” quick and easy.
Just some thoughts.. again I’m hoping your search goes well because any new items or evidence found would be great for the cause of understanding.
Osky
There is a common thought that Sitting Bull had warned the Indians to not take any material from the battlefield, that would get them in trouble should they be captured by whites with that contraband. I have no clue as to the truthfulness of that claim. I can tell you that a plains Indian would not leave 2 important items if they had a chance to get them, and that would be a horse or a gun. Nothing was more important to the survival of any person on the frontier, white or Indian, than a horse or gun.
Our investigation is for whatever they did leave that they couldn't take with them, which still could include a firearm or two, but it is doubtfull they left many guns.
You can be sure, no Indian left a rifle or threw it in a river...
I agree with the thought about what sitting bull said true or not. By this time buffalo were getting scarce in many area and a lot of Indians were on and off the reservations depending on time of year, food, etc. How many involved in LBH were back on the reservations surrendering within a year? I think they were savvy enough at this time not to show up among soldiers with gear/items taken from dead soldiers. It was a different time for sure. Do you know of anyone who has done extensive searches in the rivers and major creeks in that area? Many of the Indian crossing areas are still known of.
Osky
A woman's heart is the hardest rock the Almighty has put on this earth and I can find no sign on it.
As to Gettysburg, an excellent read is “Retreat from Gettysburg”
Lee actually did an excellent job of moving his forces from that battlefield back to Virginia. There was a lot of Cavalry action including Custer attacking and harassing the supply trains and forces heading south. Despite the pressure, Lee was able to get the majority of the supplies his forces collected back to Virginia.
As to Gettysburg, an excellent read is “Retreat from Gettysburg”
Lee actually did an excellent job of moving his forces from that battlefield back to Virginia. There was a lot of Cavalry action including Custer attacking and harassing the supply trains and forces heading south. Despite the pressure, Lee was able to get the majority of the supplies his forces collected back to Virginia.
Yeah but the South was pretty much doomed right then and there. The main reason he was in the North was to take from the fat of the land for his Army and to take a northern Capitol. Virginia was lean and pretty picked clean and by returning he was leading his men and horses right back into starvation
Indian time estimation at the Little Bighorn relating to Reno’s initial attack just came across this and found it interesting.....
From Pretty White Buffalo Woman AKA Mrs. Spotted Horn Bull, had to be before 1890, the footnotes have it that Spotted Horn Bull was killed along with Sitting Bull at the time of that attempted arrest
”The shadow of the sun had not moved the width of a teepee pole’s length from the beginning to the end of the first fight.”
I sometimes have had my students observe the speed at which a shadow moves, the motion of which they were previously clueless.
I would imagine Mrs Spotted Horn Bull had multiple opportunities to observe the movement of the sun relative to how wide teepee poles were. I’m wondering if it were a common expression relating to a short period of time.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
Wild West magazine is the only magazine I still purchase regularly. The current issue (June 2022) has an article on Custer’s horses. Seen here held by Custer’s Orderly Pvt. John Burkman, (who survived the fight on Reno’s Hill). Dandy on the left and Vic on the right.
Note the wolfhounds in the pic. Dandy was wounded but survived alongside Pvt. Burkman.
Vic was a blooded thoroughbred who’s widely esteemed dam the article states had been owned by Henry Clay. Custer was riding Vic at the battle, fate of the horse unknown.
Dandy (a mixed blood) is identified as Custer’s favorite warhorse since he had acquired him from an army consignment eight years earlier. Apparently Custer had ridden Dandy overnight and earlier that day, switching to the famously swift Vic going in.
Dandy was later given to Custer’s father and somewhat celebrated as a survivor of the fight.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
Came accross this, I have been away from the campfire a few days. I am always fascinated by Custer and the LBH. Visited LBH once. I really want to go back there sometime and see it again.
I’m just finishing rereading Philbick on my Nook as well. As I said, between the Alamo and LBH, the two of them easily make up over a quarter of my library! They have transcripts of each day’s testimony from The Reno Court Of Inquiry available on there, so I’ll probably get into that later on. I know it was a whitewash of any survivor responsibility, but I figure that it also contains a lot of information about the campaign and battle itself, so it should be worthwhile. 7mm
"Preserving the Constitution, fighting off the nibblers and chippers, even nibblers and chippers with good intentions, was once regarded by conservatives as the first duty of the citizen. It still is." � Wesley Pruden
Other than Himself ..Custer lost 2 Brothers , Uncle and a Nephew at the Little Bighorn .. Something I didn’t know till Recently..
There were 5 members of the Custer family killed that day. George Armstrong himself, younger brothers Tom and Boston, a nephew, “Autie” Reed, and Captain James Calhoun, who was married to George’s younger sister Maggie. I’d have hated to be in Ft Lincoln that morning when the news was broken to Elizabeth and Maggie. In addition to the two, there were 29 other soldier’s wives who were now widows. I believe I read somewhere that “Vic” was actually a mare. I believe In “Son Of The Morning Star” that Burkman, who was responsible for Custer’s horses, stated so. I’d have to go back and find it. 7mm
"Preserving the Constitution, fighting off the nibblers and chippers, even nibblers and chippers with good intentions, was once regarded by conservatives as the first duty of the citizen. It still is." � Wesley Pruden
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