BSA suggested a 40 yard shooting match so I'll get it started.
40 yards / 10 rounds / 12 second par time (From what I understand it was 15 seconds from the bad guy's first shot to the good guy's last shot. Subtracting 3 seconds for an initial reaction and finding the bad guy seems reasonable.)
Use your carry gun. If you shoot it on steel just count your hits.
XD45.2 subcompact, 230 grain coated flat point, 810 fps from a commander. Shot from my 40 yard patterning stake, started with the pistol in an open-top Azula high ride. 10.36, 2.1 to the first shot and .75 average split. Just nicked the bottom of the diamond about 2 inches up from the point, right side. Damage to the post is old.
switty52: I guess if yours is to short you don't have to partake? Sheesh. Hold into the wind VarmintGuy
That made me laugh out loud. Thanks for that varmintguy!! Also a big thanks to blue for starting this match. However, I also asked guys to post pics and times on the thread i started. My computer and internet is being slow as fu ck, but I'll eventually get some pics posted. My laptop must have gotten hot in the shop. Only 110 in there. Or else the sob was made in Uvalde!!!!
Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
A lot of guys going to red dots. I'm thinking the good guy had a glock 17. Has anyone said yet? My CZ is very comparable in size to that pistola and one of the ones I took out today.
Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
Pistol used CZ P09 9mm. One of my favorites. I use this one at my clubs bowling pin matches. However, I have not shot any pistols since last October:
Target:
A little sloppy, but kept all 10 shots on the body. The main thing. Close up:
Lastly and most importantly, the time:
I wrote down the data from my phone, but after this first one I just took screen shots... 7.84 seconds and dead bad paper guy... Temperature at the range today sucked. Right at 100 degrees, so I agree with pullit...
Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
Last pistola shot today is a great one that I will probably never get rid of. Its been a solid shooting piece of equipment since I've gotten it about 10 years ago. 1991 S&W 4006. The original 40S&W...:
I call this one a 9 out of 10 because the one shot grazed his shoulder. That would have only been a scratch.^^^
Time:
Good day at the range. Relieved a little pressure..
Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
A lot of guys going to red dots. I'm thinking the good guy had a glock 17. Has anyone said yet? My CZ is very comparable in size to that pistola and one of the ones I took out today.
I’ve got a G34 with the Leupold DPP. It thinks it’s a rifle.
I’m jealous. I hate being away from home while you all are hammering this shoot.
I see, another 24hourcampfire shoot, 40 yards offhand at silhouette target, 10 rounds as fast as possible, got it.
That's what I thought.. Blue can clarify if his intention was only CCW's or what. I think the specifics of the good guy vs. bad guy shoot in Indiana are still up in the air as to how far his shots actually were. Now some reports are saying 25 yards, some people are saying he was using a pole for support. I also don't imagine he was actually pulling the pistol out from his holster and then at that second pulling the trigger. At least I would not be. Pistola would already be in hands as I proceeded toward the POS. A low ready hold as you will... The pistola I shot a 7.12 second string with is the only one that I actually used a concealed holster with. It has a thumb latch that is quick. The same as what I trained with for quals with the G22 in 2 states. With that time, the first shot time was slow by comparison to the others where I just use a low hold until timer went off. No support either. Regardless, he put the bad pos down and saved countless lives. The guy deserves a medal at the least. So, no one else wants to shoot this event? I did it and I don't consider myself a "pistol" shooter. Competitive rifle shooter and watch out, I've been known to take money with my shotgun, but not a pistol shooter per se.. Others should be able to beat my scores.. Come on, anyone from Uvalde Texas?? Yeah I'm a bullschidt artist aint I?
Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
The idea is to shoot your carry gun from the draw to simulate the mall shooting. But if folks wanna use their “good” gun at least this got them to shooting.
It’s a frustrating thing though for someone who preaches to carry a real gun. Everybody carries Shields and 642s, but they pull out 17s and post pics of 6” slow fire wheel guns if their reputation is on the line.
At least people are shooting. I guess that’s a win.
I see, another 24hourcampfire shoot, 40 yards offhand at silhouette target, 10 rounds as fast as possible, got it.
That's what I thought.. Blue can clarify if his intention was only CCW's or what. I think the specifics of the good guy vs. bad guy shoot in Indiana are still up in the air as to how far his shots actually were. Now some reports are saying 25 yards, some people are saying he was using a pole for support. I also don't imagine he was actually pulling the pistol out from his holster and then at that second pulling the trigger. At least I would not be. Pistola would already be in hands as I proceeded toward the POS. A low ready hold as you will... The pistola I shot a 7.12 second string with is the only one that I actually used a concealed holster with. It has a thumb latch that is quick. The same as what I trained with for quals with the G22 in 2 states. With that time, the first shot time was slow by comparison to the others where I just use a low hold until timer went off. No support either. Regardless, he put the bad pos down and saved countless lives. The guy deserves a medal at the least. So, no one else wants to shoot this event? I did it and I don't consider myself a "pistol" shooter. Competitive rifle shooter and watch out, I've been known to take money with my shotgun, but not a pistol shooter per se.. Others should be able to beat my scores.. Come on, anyone from Uvalde Texas?? Yeah I'm a bullschidt artist aint I?
Oh lord,,,,,, when you go straight to a “low ready” you have taking yourself out of the fight… out of holster pistol up ready to engage…
Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.
I work for a living but intend to shoot it this weekend. Already had something similar planned since Monday when my shooting buddy came by and said 80% at 36 yards on the shooter without hitting anyone else....
There's a lot more to what really happened regardless of what we know or don't know. Accuracy matters. Engaging the bad guy matters. Seeking out the best path to killing the bad guy matters.
I see, another 24hourcampfire shoot, 40 yards offhand at silhouette target, 10 rounds as fast as possible, got it.
That's what I thought.. Blue can clarify if his intention was only CCW's or what. I think the specifics of the good guy vs. bad guy shoot in Indiana are still up in the air as to how far his shots actually were. Now some reports are saying 25 yards, some people are saying he was using a pole for support. I also don't imagine he was actually pulling the pistol out from his holster and then at that second pulling the trigger. At least I would not be. Pistola would already be in hands as I proceeded toward the POS. A low ready hold as you will... The pistola I shot a 7.12 second string with is the only one that I actually used a concealed holster with. It has a thumb latch that is quick. The same as what I trained with for quals with the G22 in 2 states. With that time, the first shot time was slow by comparison to the others where I just use a low hold until timer went off. No support either. Regardless, he put the bad pos down and saved countless lives. The guy deserves a medal at the least. So, no one else wants to shoot this event? I did it and I don't consider myself a "pistol" shooter. Competitive rifle shooter and watch out, I've been known to take money with my shotgun, but not a pistol shooter per se.. Others should be able to beat my scores.. Come on, anyone from Uvalde Texas?? Yeah I'm a bullschidt artist aint I?
This got weird awfully fast.
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
BSA suggested a 40 yard shooting match so I'll get it started.
40 yards / 10 rounds / 12 second par time (From what I understand it was 15 seconds from the bad guy's first shot to the good guy's last shot. Subtracting 3 seconds for an initial reaction and finding the bad guy seems reasonable.)
Use your carry gun. If you shoot it on steel just count your hits.
Unless you have shot competitively, only around 1% of us on this forum, will be able to do this. I call BS on anything else.
Every two years I have to shoot for score to retain my CCW here in PRK. It's a 7 yard target 20 rounds with no time limit, 80% hit ratio. People that are not shooting regularly or do not shoot competitively regularly fail on first try. And some have to come back to try again.
I think less than .0001% of the nation can do what this shooter did.
i enjoy the Girl Park Play Pretend Paper "Killer" Chronicles and the Estrogen you gals frost same with...mainly because it's FUNNIER than fhuqk. Hint.
I've not seen a Bear since 10 minutes ago and pavement is far "safer". Hint. Fhuqking LAUGHING!
Poor poor(literally) Beezer lives for the archaeic and don't FORGET how very fhuqking "REAL" her Imagination and Pretend are to her. Ask her what she "does",for a "living". Hint.
So don't be "mean" and discourage her "Reality",while she's "loading" 108's in her "heralded" 6x45 upper and "setting" "the pace",with her GoogleFu. Hint.
She's a Professional "Victim" and her stapler is "legit". Hint.
Fhuqking LAUGHING!...............
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
I work for a living but intend to shoot it this weekend. Already had something similar planned since Monday when my shooting buddy came by and said 80% at 36 yards on the shooter without hitting anyone else....
There's a lot more to what really happened regardless of what we know or don't know. Accuracy matters. Engaging the bad guy matters. Seeking out the best path to killing the bad guy matters.
It's more than shooting as fast as you can.
Don’t forget twirling the pistol on yo finger before you and after you shoot..
Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.
Until Dicken talks about it or the video is released none of us really knows how it all went down. The leos seemed to think he acted in an appropriate manner. So we speculate till we know but the one rule of a gunfight is to survive it. With the perp allready killing people all the other considerations of his "rights go out the window". Like others I hope to see released video of it so we can see the facts not just hear the msm version of it. Practice is allways good. Like others here my practice has allways been defensive 7-12 yards never thinking much about what Dicken had to do from longer range. I am now. So I threw the rule book away I used a copier paper target 8.5" w 11" white with a 3 3/4" black bullseye in the middle of it. 25 yds to start , cheated again used my high standard Victor 2 hand hold raised it snapped off the safety. 6-7 seconds later and 10 rounds done pull the.mag and seat mag 2 and go to it again. I put 50 rds of federal auto match outta of that barrel in damned short order. 46 hits out of 50 shots on the paper only 20% in the black. Yet that piece of paper is smaller than the silhouette targets lethal zone. No I didn't use a pole rest or a 9mm. Wanted to shoot the Victor even though I don't use it as a carry gun. I'll switch to my Mk 2 5.5" bull barrel I do carry that in the field with a good belt holster. 22lr? Damn cheap to shoot for practice and once I am tuned a bit I'll switch to one of my ccw. 9's. Make your own rules just like Eli Dicken had too....mb
" Cheapest velocity in the world comes from a long barrel and I sure do like them. MB "
Well here goes; Glock 19 MOS with HS 507C Glock 19 iron sights Dan Wesson Vigil 9mm light weight commander Only 9 shots on the DW. 40 yards from the draw.
The idea is to shoot your carry gun from the draw to simulate the mall shooting. But if folks wanna use their “good” gun at least this got them to shooting.
It’s a frustrating thing though for someone who preaches to carry a real gun. Everybody carries Shields and 642s, but they pull out 17s and post pics of 6” slow fire wheel guns if their reputation is on the line.
At least people are shooting. I guess that’s a win.
My girlfriend carries a G17. The CZ I used is the same size. In your OP, you do not specify "carry gun". This is a good shoot, but would be much better without the fu cking whining and crying. I pulled my 4006 from my concealed holster. The rest were held low. That is pretty explainable. This is why my first shot is SLOW.
Watch some Youtube videos. There's a few on there now over this shoot. Those guys are really slow. If it's taking you 3-5 seconds to get on target and pull the trigger, the bad guy may have enough time to take YOU out.. Just a thought.. Those that are crying about chidt, are the ones that need more practice because in a situation like this there is no second place. Unless you like being dead..
I'm also suspecting from the stupid remarks here, that a lot of you guys have never heard of the "21 foot rule". How many here have even trained for that scenario??? It is a proven fact that a lot of bad guys can get to you with a knife in 1.5-2 seconds if they are within 21 feet. That's another reason a first shot time is critical. You guys need to be consistently on target in less time than that. Also Blue, I did not specify "carry gun" in the thread I started. I'm imagining Eli had a G19 or even a G17, but some reports are saying he had a 357 sig, so who knows?? Could have been a G22 even if that were the case. He was also shooting from a supported position. You can also guarantee he had his pistol drawn and way ready before the timer of 15 seconds started. Only a fool in that situation would not be ready with pistol in hand as he approached the perp. We need to wait on the video to be released, but many may be surprised if it was less than 40 yards and that 15 seconds was when the actual shooting started.. That is yet to be seen by anyone here, so we will have to wait and see..
Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
I must be missing something because in Blu's very first post it clearly says to use your carry gun. And that would make the most sense anyway, to use the gun you actually carry concealed and not a range toy or gamer gun set up for competitions.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
BSA suggested a 40 yard shooting match so I'll get it started.
40 yards / 10 rounds / 12 second par time (From what I understand it was 15 seconds from the bad guy's first shot to the good guy's last shot. Subtracting 3 seconds for an initial reaction and finding the bad guy seems reasonable.)
Use your carry gun. If you shoot it on steel just count your hits.
Well son of a biscuit it does say use your carry gun… for me I usually have a Glock 20 around but very rarely do I conceal carry. I don’t go to malls, very rarely eat out, the local grocery store half the people in their are carrying. So when the bullets start flying I will hit the ground and let everyone shoot at each other. Or make my way to the beef jerky aisle and eat beef jerky for free.
Last edited by 79S; 07/23/22.
Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.
Pistol used CZ P09 9mm. One of my favorites. I use this one at my clubs bowling pin matches.
Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
I used my XDM40
Great pistola.
They are a little big for any kind of precision shooting..
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
The idea is to shoot your carry gun from the draw to simulate the mall shooting.
Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
My girlfriend carries a G17. The CZ I used is the same size. In your OP, you do not specify "carry gun".
Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
This is a good shoot, but would be much better without the fu cking whining and crying.
i'll quote this because many wont read it, either
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
When I read the OP, I took it to mean your carry gun as you carry it. Not the heaviest, lowest recoiling pistol in your safe from the low ready. Kinda defeats the point. I don't get the foot stomping dramatic outbursts. But hey, whatever lets a guy put up the target he's willing to share lol
Guess I'll have to find the timer and drive to my buddies in Alice Tx to try it when I get time, also shoot the 220 swift, no place here in Corpus for me to shoot.
God bless Texas----------------------- Old 300 I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull Its not how you pick the booger.. but where you put it !! Roger V Hunter
Guess I'll have to find the timer and drive to my buddies in Alice Tx to try it when I get time, also shoot the 220 swift, no place here in Corpus for me to shoot.
Uh in the air…
Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.
It's all relative, no set rules just be honest enough to say your actual results are and how you got them as well as what you used. Think about it Dicken just responded to the situation. None of us know exactly what that was and won't until the security cam footage is released. I shoot different distances all the time with all my handguns but with my ccw guns 7-12 yards. Pull it out go to shooting we've all been preprogrammed to that use as a self defense situation . With worries of legal repercussions using lethal force to neutralize the threat. In Dicken's case the perp came out of the bathroom shooting people, Dicken responded and engaged the perp at a range way beyond what leo's would have considered in a normal sd shooting. No chance to safely retreat and the only defense option he had was to go on the offense. He did that with skill and results beyond a normal ccw holder. To gain those skills make your own rules just be honest of your results. The leftist antigun asswipes in our country today have maintained that people legally carrying a ccw will result in more crime but we all know they are full of sh*t they hate guns and will say anything to further their agenda. So now we have clear cut example of a honest citizen ccw holder clearly showing how the armed public can save innocent lives. We don't know how far this will go , but it looks to me that those 9mm empties hitting the floor in Greenwood mall got heard around the whole country. In liberal states and cities they didn't hear a thing. People who know right from wrong heard it loud and clear. Practice, build your skills, be prepared to stand and be counted for defending the innocent...mb
Last edited by Magnum_Bob; 07/23/22.
" Cheapest velocity in the world comes from a long barrel and I sure do like them. MB "
You are probably the only one that doesn’t realize it.
Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
The idea is to shoot your carry gun from the draw to simulate the mall shooting. But if folks wanna use their “good” gun at least this got them to shooting.
It’s a frustrating thing though for someone who preaches to carry a real gun. Everybody carries Shields and 642s, but they pull out 17s and post pics of 6” slow fire wheel guns if their reputation is on the line.
At least people are shooting. I guess that’s a win.
My girlfriend carries a G17. The CZ I used is the same size. In your OP, you do not specify "carry gun". This is a good shoot, but would be much better without the fu cking whining and crying. I pulled my 4006 from my concealed holster. The rest were held low. That is pretty explainable. This is why my first shot is SLOW.
Watch some Youtube videos. There's a few on there now over this shoot. Those guys are really slow. If it's taking you 3-5 seconds to get on target and pull the trigger, the bad guy may have enough time to take YOU out.. Just a thought.. Those that are crying about chidt, are the ones that need more practice because in a situation like this there is no second place. Unless you like being dead..
I'm also suspecting from the stupid remarks here, that a lot of you guys have never heard of the "21 foot rule". How many here have even trained for that scenario??? It is a proven fact that a lot of bad guys can get to you with a knife in 1.5-2 seconds if they are within 21 feet. That's another reason a first shot time is critical. You guys need to be consistently on target in less time than that. Also Blue, I did not specify "carry gun" in the thread I started. I'm imagining Eli had a G19 or even a G17, but some reports are saying he had a 357 sig, so who knows?? Could have been a G22 even if that were the case. He was also shooting from a supported position. You can also guarantee he had his pistol drawn and way ready before the timer of 15 seconds started. Only a fool in that situation would not be ready with pistol in hand as he approached the perp. We need to wait on the video to be released, but many may be surprised if it was less than 40 yards and that 15 seconds was when the actual shooting started.. That is yet to be seen by anyone here, so we will have to wait and see..
Wasn't sure how this would go, I had mixed ammo in my carry gun because I had shot a couple of Ground squirrels yesterday but wanted to give it a try anyway. Didn't feel too bad but my carry gun in a 7 round Walther PPS 9mm so I didn't run the clock, wasn't even sure I would hit it except the gun shoots pretty good with 128 gr HP cast. Problem was I only had two, the others were 120 gr TC cast. I hit it 5 out of 7, you see the taped holes on the target. I'll try again tomorrow. The other gun I tried was my S&W M&P 2.0, again I had to use the 120 gr TC cast bullets & they shot fine but low compared to the 128 gr HP's. I fired 9 rounds, hitting with 7 & the 10th round stove piped. This load seemed a bit light for the S&W. Dick
I see, another 24hourcampfire shoot, 40 yards offhand at silhouette target, 10 rounds as fast as possible, got it.
That's what I thought.. Blue can clarify if his intention was only CCW's or what. I think the specifics of the good guy vs. bad guy shoot in Indiana are still up in the air as to how far his shots actually were. Now some reports are saying 25 yards, some people are saying he was using a pole for support. I also don't imagine he was actually pulling the pistol out from his holster and then at that second pulling the trigger. At least I would not be. Pistola would already be in hands as I proceeded toward the POS. A low ready hold as you will... The pistola I shot a 7.12 second string with is the only one that I actually used a concealed holster with. It has a thumb latch that is quick. The same as what I trained with for quals with the G22 in 2 states. With that time, the first shot time was slow by comparison to the others where I just use a low hold until timer went off. No support either. Regardless, he put the bad pos down and saved countless lives. The guy deserves a medal at the least. So, no one else wants to shoot this event? I did it and I don't consider myself a "pistol" shooter. Competitive rifle shooter and watch out, I've been known to take money with my shotgun, but not a pistol shooter per se.. Others should be able to beat my scores.. Come on, anyone from Uvalde Texas?? Yeah I'm a bullschidt artist aint I?
It's what you want it to be. But you know Eli was sitting at a table with his gf. He stood up pushing her to the ground, telling her to stay down. With perp allready shooting, security cam timing said start to finish 15 seconds I'll bet the first 4-5 seconds got ate up dealing with her. I'll bet he didn't have his hands poised either. Be interesting to see the real time breakdown on it all...mb
" Cheapest velocity in the world comes from a long barrel and I sure do like them. MB "
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Guys all over are now using the Indiana Mall bad guy stoppage as a training tool. Calling it the “Dicken drill” after the kid Eli Dicken. I’m going to try it next time I’m at the outdoor range. 10 rounds from the holster with your carry gun in 15 seconds. Need 8 hits to pass. No matter what you think, to pull off this feat under stress is an amazing thing. The 22 year old good guy saved countless lives with his cool headed accuracy.
Ron
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. Orwell
BSA suggested a 40 yard shooting match so I'll get it started.
40 yards / 10 rounds / 12 second par time (From what I understand it was 15 seconds from the bad guy's first shot to the good guy's last shot. Subtracting 3 seconds for an initial reaction and finding the bad guy seems reasonable.)
Use your carry gun. If you shoot it on steel just count your hits.
I can't dispute this, but haven't read or heard, anywhere on my own, what the timing was. With the exception that the local police chief acknowledged that the good guy engaged the bad guy 15 seconds on from the BG's first shot.
If you have heard or read details on the timing, please post a link. Is a video publicly available?
Either way, I like the shoot you've outlined and set up. Don't have a shot timer but I'll try to have someone stop watch me at the range.
BSA suggested a 40 yard shooting match so I'll get it started.
40 yards / 10 rounds / 12 second par time (From what I understand it was 15 seconds from the bad guy's first shot to the good guy's last shot. Subtracting 3 seconds for an initial reaction and finding the bad guy seems reasonable.)
Use your carry gun. If you shoot it on steel just count your hits.
I can't dispute this, but haven't read or heard, anywhere on my own, what the timing was. With the exception that the local police chief acknowledged that the good guy engaged the bad guy 15 seconds on from the BG's first shot.
If you have heard or read details on the timing, please post a link. Is a video publicly available?
Either way, I like the shoot you've outlined and set up. Don't have a shot timer but I'll try to have someone stop watch me at the range.
Blue has laid out a good training scenario/challenge, regardless of details of the actual event. Now where's that timer?....
“Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.” ― G. Orwell
"Why can't men kill big game with the same cartridges women and kids use?" _Eileen Clarke
"Unjust authority confers no obligation of obedience." - Alexander Hamilton
Well I can't do it on an 8" plate at 40yds with my M&P, but I have lots of near misses. So maybe if I put up a B27 target I'll get a better sense of how much hurt I can put on a guy at 40yds.
I decided not use my 1911 simply because I can't do 10 shots without reloading. My 1911 and I get along quite well.
I could ring the 8" steel a couple times a mag with the PF9.
40yds is a long ways to be using a pistol to engage a bad guy, imho.
The story reads the shooter started retreating back to the bathroom after taking fire, implying that he was still upright to take 8 of 10 hits.
A lot of the Youtube "Eli Drills" have shooters doing it multiple times. Really you should show up at the range, hang a target, walk back to the shooting line and engage the target from your carry holster. Exercise done.
40yds is a long ways to be using a pistol to engage a bad guy, imho.
Lots to be said about this comment ... but I’ll distill my thought .
The cat in the event that started all this DIDNT get to decide what’s a reasonable distance to engage , or with what .
Not sending negativity your way with my comment, but I’m burned out on reading things like “statistically self defence encounters are 3 shots at 21ft , etc etc . “
Pardon me if you don’t feel your comment aligns with that mindset , but that is how I interpreted it
Last edited by jmd025; 07/27/22.
Rabid Creedmoorians ring my doorbell ... as I open it a crack they speak : "Do you have a moment to talk about our Lord and Savior , 6.5Creed?"
40yds is a long ways to be using a pistol to engage a bad guy, imho.
Lots to be said about this comment ... but I’ll distill my thought .
The cat in the event that started all this DIDNT get to decide what’s a reasonable distance to engage , or with what .
Not sending negativity your way with my comment, but I’m burned out on reading things like “statistically self defence encounters are 3 shots at 21ft , etc etc . “
Pardon me if you don’t feel your comment aligns with that mindset , but that is how I interpreted it
A couple of things I should mention:
I don't have fantasies about stopping mall shooters.
I do practice out to 40-50yds occasionally.
And a key point in my thinking about carrying a gun:
I'm not in the cop business and I have no obligation to be a hero. I'm not carrying a gun to protect the public
I.e. shootings that don't involve me - don't involve me.
Regarding engagement distances: I like math. I like statistics. I understand that the risk of defending myself from a shooter 40yds away is so infinitesimal that it is mental masturbation to worry about it.
40yds is a long ways to be using a pistol to engage a bad guy, imho.
Lots to be said about this comment ... but I’ll distill my thought .
The cat in the event that started all this DIDNT get to decide what’s a reasonable distance to engage , or with what .
Not sending negativity your way with my comment, but I’m burned out on reading things like “statistically self defence encounters are 3 shots at 21ft , etc etc . “
Pardon me if you don’t feel your comment aligns with that mindset , but that is how I interpreted it
A couple of things I should mention:
I don't have fantasies about stopping mall shooters.
I do practice out to 40-50yds occasionally.
And a key point in my thinking about carrying a gun:
I'm not in the cop business and I have no obligation to be a hero. I'm not carrying a gun to protect the public
I.e. shootings that don't involve me - don't involve me.
Regarding engagement distances: I like math. I like statistics. I understand that the risk of defending myself from a shooter 40yds away is so infinitesimal that it is mental masturbation to worry about it.
To quote Mackay Sagebrush, who posts here often, "You don't get the deadly force encounter you want, you get the one you get", meaning it could happen at 3 yards or like the mall in Indiana it could happen at 40 yards. I agree that statistically its more likely to happen at 3 yards then it is at 40. In my opinion if you can make a shot at 40 yards, you should be able to make it at 3 yards, you just have to make it a whole lot faster at 3 yards.
To quote Mackay Sagebrush, who posts here often, "You don't get the deadly force encounter you want, you get the one you get", meaning it could happen at 3 yards or like the mall in Indiana it could happen at 40 yards.
What he said doesn't have jack [bleep] to do with the probability of particular engagement distance.
To quote Mackay Sagebrush, who posts here often, "You don't get the deadly force encounter you want, you get the one you get", meaning it could happen at 3 yards or like the mall in Indiana it could happen at 40 yards.
What he said doesn't have jack [bleep] to do with the probability of particular engagement distance.
Smart people consider the consequences not the probabilities.
mike r
Don't wish it were easier Wish you were better
Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that. Craig Douglas ECQC
To quote Mackay Sagebrush, who posts here often, "You don't get the deadly force encounter you want, you get the one you get", meaning it could happen at 3 yards or like the mall in Indiana it could happen at 40 yards.
What he said doesn't have jack [bleep] to do with the probability of particular engagement distance.
Smart people consider the consequences not the probabilities.
Seems to me this whole exercise is a waste of time unless your are shooting your EDC, YMMV Rio7
aint seen many guys shooting it with LC9s, J frames etc either
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
I really hope this doesn't turn into a negative response because Blue has brought up a very interesting discussion. All of us can benefit from trying this drill, I know I have & I've been doing it every day for the last 6 days. At first I was making little mistakes with all 3 guns that I trade off carrying & now I've got things worked out thanks to this drill. No jams, no malfunctions & much better hits. Tomorrow I'll slow down a tick & shoot my Walther PPS shorty again. I'll probably be stretching the 15 seconds but I'm going to really focus on that front sight & see how we do. Again, it's only good for 8 rounds but I can live with that with some practice, just need to put in a little more time. Today went well with my S&W M&P, shot a bit faster, hits were much better & more centered. Probably not as good as many but for old age (77) & iron sights I was happy. Wish more guys would post their targets, hope I'm not the worst!! Dick
I shot this multiple times yesterday and it wasn't until the 3rd attempt that I made par. Previous attempts were par for time but would result in five in, five out.
G17 out of a Black Scorpion IWB. From just behind the six o'clock w/cover shirt. Time was 11.87.
I was watched five full time LEO's attempt the drill out of ALS and the most hits any of the five achieved was three out of ten. None of them are what most would describe as horrible shooters. Until the got to 40yds. LOL
Although this is a great drill regardless, I would love to know if Dicken's handgun wore an optic that day.
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
I really hope this doesn't turn into a negative response because Blue has brought up a very interesting discussion. All of us can benefit from trying this drill, I know I have & I've been doing it every day for the last 6 days. At first I was making little mistakes with all 3 guns that I trade off carrying & now I've got things worked out thanks to this drill. No jams, no malfunctions & much better hits. Tomorrow I'll slow down a tick & shoot my Walther PPS shorty again. I'll probably be stretching the 15 seconds but I'm going to really focus on that front sight & see how we do. Again, it's only good for 8 rounds but I can live with that with some practice, just need to put in a little more time. Today went well with my S&W M&P, shot a bit faster, hits were much better & more centered. Probably not as good as many but for old age (77) & iron sights I was happy. Wish more guys would post their targets, hope I'm not the worst!! Dick
Good shootin' Idaho.
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
To quote Mackay Sagebrush, who posts here often, "You don't get the deadly force encounter you want, you get the one you get", meaning it could happen at 3 yards or like the mall in Indiana it could happen at 40 yards.
What he said doesn't have jack [bleep] to do with the probability of particular engagement distance.
If I follow the probabilities, the truth is most people will never get into a gun fight, so following that logic why train for something that will probably never happen. I agree that most civilian deadly force encounters happen at close range, the nature of these crimes is that someone wants something from you and is willing to use force to get it. You don't get assaulted, robbed or raped at 40 yards, but if you are in a mass shooting situation it could be 40 yards or a lot further. The Las Vegas mass shooting was over 40 yards. This mall incident has stirred up interest in shooting at ranges longer than the typical 3, 7, 10 or 15 yards and I thing that is a good thing. You are correct when you state that thinking does a body good, and that's what's happening here, people are thinking about how they would respond to shooting for self defense at longer than average distances.
I shot this multiple times yesterday and it wasn't until the 3rd attempt that I made par. Previous attempts were par for time but would result in five in, five out.
G17 out of a Black Scorpion IWB. From just behind the six o'clock w/cover shirt. Time was 11.87.
I was watched five full time LEO's attempt the drill out of ALS and the most hits any of the five achieved was three out of ten. None of them are what most would describe as horrible shooters. Until the got to 40yds. LOL
Although this is a great drill regardless, I would love to know if Dicken's handgun wore an optic that day.
There’s still that thing about 76 feet instead of 40 yards. Who had the good eye?
Colossians 3:17 (New King James Version) "And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him."
Getting down to details again that we don't know yet tjm 10025. What I want to know is even more pertinent, was he personally under fire while he was shooting? With dla's rational he would have just stuck his head up his ass and said not my problem. With the liberal rational of today you need to be hit first or let the perp kill a few before you shoot. Based only on the facts we know there are a lot of people in that food court who are alive today because Dicken didn't say or think "not my problem"....mb
" Cheapest velocity in the world comes from a long barrel and I sure do like them. MB "
Pretty good sized mall to give a 40 yard engagement range. That may have been an exaggeration.
not at all the foodcourt is close to 60 yards across at our local mall and its a pretty small small as far as malls go
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
40yds from a dining table to the restroom/hall entrance would certainly be possible at my local mall, but it would likely include firing across other tables and would require no other seated patrons in the way.
Seems to me this whole exercise is a waste of time unless your are shooting your EDC, YMMV Rio7
aint seen many guys shooting it with LC9s, J frames etc either
They never do.
sometimes we're inspired to do stuff even if we can't brag about it.
LC9 this morning at 25 yard steel. 8 rounds/16.6 seconds/7 hits. (no shot timer/guy used my cell stop watch) Also winged a couple of untimed mags from 40 and 50 yards. Hits went down, nothing to brag about.
My EDC is a Glock 19 but I do carry a J frame when I run or when I’m just running to the store in gym shorts. It’s a 43c, 8 shot 22 LR. I have a match Saturday if I can make it but I’ll shoot the J frame at 40 when I get a chance.
Ok Blue I shoot a lot of J frame 38s shooting 158 LRN at 650-750 fps. My bullets take a really really long time to reach 40yards. Can you spare me a few seconds more?
Took my S&W 627 38 Super to the range today to give it a test drive. I haven't shot this gun in about 4 years, felt kind of strange! It has a red dot on top & a very good trigger & I only shoot it double action. This is an 8 shot gun & I was shooting 128 gr cast powder coated HP's. I shot a bit too fast with no practice & ended up missing a couple of shots & for some reason the timer didn't register although it did go off. First run I had 6-8, just shot too fast. Second run was more in rhythm but still too fast for being older & rusty. Back when I was shooting 50,000+ a year this would have been easy, now after back surgery that left me with a numb right foot & also open heart surgery it's a bit more of a challenge but I've really enjoyed doing this, trust me, its been a hoot! The timer is upside down on this second run but it did read, I only took 2 moon clips with me but it felt better on the second run. If I can lean up against something with my right leg I do much better but that's not the reason for this drill. Dick
Pretty good sized mall to give a 40 yard engagement range. That may have been an exaggeration.
not at all the foodcourt is close to 60 yards across at our local mall and its a pretty small small as far as malls go
I doubt it. Did you pace it off or range it?
yes in fact we have. from theatre concession stand(ajoining the foodcourt in fluidity) to arcade was 68 yds. we ranged it along center court to end store on each wing (west was ive or take 130 yds. East was coser to 175. we didseveral force on force trainings there after hours and wanted to know what we would be facing for distances, an ops plan etc. what continues to amaze me is the fact you think it cant or wont happen to you. Dismissing Mac's statement is an open statement of your cluelessness.
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
Pretty good sized mall to give a 40 yard engagement range. That may have been an exaggeration.
not at all the foodcourt is close to 60 yards across at our local mall and its a pretty small small as far as malls go
I doubt it. Did you pace it off or range it?
yes in fact we have. from theatre concession stand(ajoining the foodcourt in fluidity) to arcade was 68 yds. we ranged it along center court to end store on each wing (west was ive or take 130 yds. East was coser to 175. we didseveral force on force trainings there after hours and wanted to know what we would be facing for distances, an ops plan etc. what continues to amaze me is the fact you think it cant or wont happen to you. Dismissing Mac's statement is an open statement of your cluelessness.
I'm sortof sorry that you're too stupid to think through what he said and whether or not it applied. But other than your abject stupidity, thank you for setting me straight on how big a food court can be.
Pretty good sized mall to give a 40 yard engagement range. That may have been an exaggeration.
not at all the foodcourt is close to 60 yards across at our local mall and its a pretty small small as far as malls go
I doubt it. Did you pace it off or range it?
yes in fact we have. from theatre concession stand(ajoining the foodcourt in fluidity) to arcade was 68 yds. we ranged it along center court to end store on each wing (west was ive or take 130 yds. East was coser to 175. we didseveral force on force trainings there after hours and wanted to know what we would be facing for distances, an ops plan etc. what continues to amaze me is the fact you think it cant or wont happen to you. Dismissing Mac's statement is an open statement of your cluelessness.
I'm sortof sorry that you're too stupid to think through what he said and whether or not it applied. But other than your abject stupidity, thank you for setting me straight on how big a food court can be.
once again you point out your own stupidity. please tell al of us "dummies" how Mac's statement is irrelevant.
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
Pretty good sized mall to give a 40 yard engagement range. That may have been an exaggeration.
not at all the foodcourt is close to 60 yards across at our local mall and its a pretty small small as far as malls go
I doubt it. Did you pace it off or range it?
yes in fact we have. from theatre concession stand(ajoining the foodcourt in fluidity) to arcade was 68 yds. we ranged it along center court to end store on each wing (west was ive or take 130 yds. East was coser to 175. we didseveral force on force trainings there after hours and wanted to know what we would be facing for distances, an ops plan etc. what continues to amaze me is the fact you think it cant or wont happen to you. Dismissing Mac's statement is an open statement of your cluelessness.
I'm sortof sorry that you're too stupid to think through what he said and whether or not it applied. But other than your abject stupidity, thank you for setting me straight on how big a food court can be.
once again you point out your own stupidity. please tell al of us "dummies" how Mac's statement is irrelevant.
You can't have a debate with an idiot, you should know that, gitem
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
I gave it a go with a few different pistols I carry.
Glock 17 Springfield XDs 3.3” in 45 ACP STI Staccato 9mm Shadow Legend 9mm with a Holosun Red dot…I don’t carry this pistol. It’s a fun gun and a learning tool for me to become familiar shooting with an optic on a pistol.
Pistols were drawn from a GunFighterInc chest rig, except for the Springfield that rides in a Mitch Rosen IWB holster that I keep in my truck console as a backup pistol.
Time was kept off my wife’s cell phone. She set it for 10 seconds each time, then said ‘GO’. She would yell out ‘Time’ at 10 seconds.
To me the most realistic shooting I did was done on Friday, late afternoon with my daily carry G17. I have this pistol on me, everyday, while I’m working around the property. I had just spent 5 hours moving logs, then splitting firewood. I was tired, sore, sweaty and covered in dirt dust.
On my way back to the shop on the tractor, I went by the range. When I said to myself, “Why not?”
I shut the tractor off, and limped to the 40 yard line. I pulled my Glock, ran a rag over it, to get the dust off, took the mag and dumped rounds until I only had 9+1, then holstered it again while staring at the target.
I drew and started pulling the trigger. I know, from experience, I was under 10 seconds.
I sent 5 into the hot zone. 3 misses or non fatal and 2 rounds were lost without a return address…It is, what it is.
From this morning.
🦫
Curiosity Killed the Cat & The Prairie Dog “Molon Labe”
This morning before starting chores, I grabbed the wife and hit the range. Next up was STI Staccato. I really like this pistol. I haven’t shot it enough, and it showed.
Shot this in under 10 seconds….And I wasn’t happy about it.
So, at the end, I shot the Staccato again, for improvement.
2nd go at the target with the pistol under 10 seconds.
🦫
Curiosity Killed the Cat & The Prairie Dog “Molon Labe”
I shot this mess in over 10 seconds. Wife called out ‘Time’ and I hadn’t broke the last shot. No excuses, I had a difficult time at this distance finding the center of the target with a short sight radius.
Pathetic!
🦫
Curiosity Killed the Cat & The Prairie Dog “Molon Labe”
Next was the Shadow Legend with a Holosun optic. The pistol is very accurate with it’s irons. It also accurate with the red dot. My only bitch about this pistol is the trigger. It’s a longer reset than I like. ‘Different’ is a nice word I’d use, when I really want to say it’s ‘shît’!
I shot this in over 10 seconds as well. I don’t have enough rounds of experience, yet, shooting with an optic. I found myself trying to make the same sight picture, with the ‘dot’ in the same place within the window.
I’ll take some instructions from those of you who shoot a red dot on a regular basis.
🦫
Curiosity Killed the Cat & The Prairie Dog “Molon Labe”
I shot this mess in over 10 seconds. Wife called out ‘Time’ and I hadn’t broke the last shot. No excuses, I had a difficult time at this distance finding the center of the target with only 3.3” inches of a sight radius.
[quote=jmd025][quote=dla] I'm not in the cop business and I have no obligation to be a hero. I'm not carrying a gun to protect the public
I.e. shootings that don't involve me - don't involve me.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
you confuse Dla with a good man. he's a libtard
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
I rode my bike from the dump to the local shootings range yesterday. Well it didn't go so well, might have to send my hi-point in to get it looked at. I fabricated a holster out of some Sheetmetal I found in the scrap pile at the dump.
Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.
[quote=jmd025][quote=dla] I'm not in the cop business and I have no obligation to be a hero. I'm not carrying a gun to protect the public
I.e. shootings that don't involve me - don't involve me.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
My you are unbearably stupid. Can you use the bathroom without getting [bleep] on your t-shirt?
Is all that you have left in the way of an argument, personal insults? If Elijah Dickens had ran away instead of confronting the mass shooter the death toll would have been much higher, instead of doing nothing he chose to stand up against evil. What would you have done if you were in Elijah's place, there with someone that matters to you, your wife, child or grandchild? Would you have engaged or fled?
While nothing replaces a shot timer, the exact time is not as important as getting good hits.
Applause
I don't think anybody that takes handgunning serious should applaud a comment like that without clarification.
Being accurate is the foundation a shooter builds upon. It's not where the skill set starts and ends.
Speed matters.
Yes of course speed matters but in a crowded mall situation, do you want a guy that subscribes to the “if you’re shooting all A’s then you’re shooting too slow” crowd?
The goal is to get the first shots into a target that will stop the fight. You go fast in the fast parts and slow in the slow parts. 40 yards with innocent bystanders is the slow parts. You just want your slow to be faster than his.
While nothing replaces a shot timer, the exact time is not as important as getting good hits.
Applause
I don't think anybody that takes handgunning serious should applaud a comment like that without clarification.
Being accurate is the foundation a shooter builds upon. It's not where the skill set starts and ends.
Speed matters.
Yes of course speed matters but in a crowded mall situation, do you want a guy that subscribes to the “if you’re shooting all A’s then you’re shooting too slow” crowd?
The goal is to get the first shots into a target that will stop the fight. You go fast in the fast parts and slow in the slow parts. 40 yards with innocent bystanders is the slow parts. You just want your slow to be faster than his.
Geez
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
LOL, many thanks Pacecars, i appreciate it greatly Sir, these dang handgunner dudes have all the fun, this was a blast.
I was walking North, saw the threat, turned and fired Dew West, that old Baer 45 ACP is an easy Cadillac, and the devil damning me straight to hell would be the only reason i'd be found in a mall, that said, the old 1911 is what i carry to church, city, nice dinners, wedding/funerals etc, so if in a mall i'd have it on my belt, those 230 gold dots at 950 are easy recoiling loads in that all steel pistol.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Thanks Jorge and JWP, i like those 1911's too, that Baer, DW 10mm, Fusion Arms bobtail Commander 45 ACP or Colt 38 Super LW Commander could have all been on my belt for this shoot today, just great and fun guns.
I went back and watched Pacecars video again and think i set myself up for easy cheating, this being a supposed mall setting with other innocents, pillars, tables, shrubbery, partitions etc was the reason i set my target up in that hole in the brush beside that cedar tree with overhanging brush and more brush hanging down the right side, also some light oak limbs to shoot through behind the cedar, what i accidently did was make myself a peep sight barrel shooting through that hole into the target, like shooting through a giant pipe only 25 yards away with the target being only 15 yards beyond the brush, every time that slow rolling Baer sight came back down where i could see white, i pressed the trigger again.
I think there's some carryover from shooting Sharps rifles that can help with handguns, while damning oneself to stay on that front sight at all costs, on Pacecars youtube account there's a couple videos of me shooting an original Sharps rifle at 100 and 700 yards in around a 15-20 MPH full value crosswind, i loaded that old rifle just like they did back then with 100gr FG black powder under a copy of an original Sharps rifle factory 514gr paper patch bullet that they sent out to the Buffalo hunters.
Picking a spot on the buckhorn ladder barrel sight and sliding the leaf up then staying on that front sight hard enough to draw an imaginary line 8 feet right for a wind hold off the 700 yard gong then letting it fly, that sombitch hit hard LOL, so yes, i think any and all forms of shooting can come in handy trying to place good hits downrange with anything, be it firearm or blade.
BTW, that click/kerplunk at the end of the video was me not liking the way that low set eared bassturd was looking at me so i yanked a knife off my belt and trimmed that left one up a bit for him LOL!
I spose in a real shoot em up situation if a man walked up low on ammo one could pull the blade a bit left and give em a bit of cross-lobe-ular stimulation ; ]
Found the issue I was shooting 380 ammo out of my 9mm…need to find a place closer to shoot, local range 20 miles one way. On a bike that’s a lot pedaling even more when you other leg is shorter than the other. I did have a fella say he has a land that goes out 150 feet I told him that was way to far. I only need 40 yards to shoot.
Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.
While nothing replaces a shot timer, the exact time is not as important as getting good hits.
Applause
I don't think anybody that takes handgunning serious should applaud a comment like that without clarification.
Being accurate is the foundation a shooter builds upon. It's not where the skill set starts and ends.
Speed matters.
Yes of course speed matters but in a crowded mall situation, do you want a guy that subscribes to the “if you’re shooting all A’s then you’re shooting too slow” crowd?
The goal is to get the first shots into a target that will stop the fight. You go fast in the fast parts and slow in the slow parts. 40 yards with innocent bystanders is the slow parts. You just want your slow to be faster than his.
You are shooting too slow if you are getting all A's
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Thanks Beav old buddy, we are all having easy fun here shooting at something that's not shooting back, coupled with screaming women and kids running everywhere pissing themselves, that young man stood up hard and fast and got it done!
Yessir, that old Baer is a great pistol, i remember 10 years ago when i bought it from our buddy Rockchucker........."dont mess up those grips daddy!" LOL, well, i haven't messed them up, but have carried it a million miles in that little holster pictured, and like you, that wear doesn't bother me a bit, i haven't shot it much, and being as Rockchucker is one of my adopted stepkids it'll still be in fine working order when i give it back to him after they order the backhoe and flowers ; ]
It the rush of people try to scatter, it is not easy for the bad guy to observe one person 40 yards away, maybe partially behind cover, drawing, and aiming a weapon.
If the good guy can make a hit with his first shot, he has taken the initiative away from the bad guy. The bad guy is realizing he got hit, and trying to see where it came from, and/or seeking cover. Maybe suffering from tunnel-vision, also.
While this is happening the good guy probably has time to make a second hit.
Yes of course speed matters but in a crowded mall situation, do you want a guy that subscribes to the “if you’re shooting all A’s then you’re shooting too slow” crowd?
The goal is to get the first shots into a target that will stop the fight. You go fast in the fast parts and slow in the slow parts. 40 yards with innocent bystanders is the slow parts. You just want your slow to be faster than his.
Wow.
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
LOL, many thanks Pacecars, i appreciate it greatly Sir, these dang handgunner dudes have all the fun, this was a blast.
I was walking North, saw the threat, turned and fired Dew West, that old Baer 45 ACP is an easy Cadillac, and the devil damning me straight to hell would be the only reason i'd be found in a mall, that said, the old 1911 is what i carry to church, city, nice dinners, wedding/funerals etc, so if in a mall i'd have it on my belt, those 230 gold dots at 950 are easy recoiling loads in that all steel pistol.
Thanks again Sir.
Jerry, why do you dislike Derek Jeter so much?
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
FWIW, my initial response was for Beaver and the others who are improvising timing methods. Don’t worry about the time as much as the hits.
My later “clarification” for flave was in response to all the folks focusing on time. It also was based on this weekends match and seeing the emphasis on speed over accuracy. That’s okay for games but not for a mall shooting.
FWIW, my initial response was for Beaver and the others who are improvising timing methods. Don’t worry about the time as much as the hits.
My later “clarification” for flave was in response to all the folks focusing on time. It also was based on this weekends match and seeing the emphasis on speed over accuracy. That’s okay for games but not for a mall shooting.
But by all means, carry on.
When being shot at speed in return fire is of the essence. Dicken sure reacted fast and fired fast putting 8 0ut of 10 into the bad guy. Fast hits not dead center trumps dead center hits at a slow pace
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
The perp was shooting but at the time Dicken got going was he directly under fire? Makes a difference and we still don't know how it all went down. Just saying we still lack facts and actual circumstances...mb
" Cheapest velocity in the world comes from a long barrel and I sure do like them. MB "
FWIW, my initial response was for Beaver and the others who are improvising timing methods. Don’t worry about the time as much as the hits.
My later “clarification” for flave was in response to all the folks focusing on time. It also was based on this weekends match and seeing the emphasis on speed over accuracy. That’s okay for games but not for a mall shooting.
But by all means, carry on.
Wow X 2.
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
The report I’ve seen but not verified of course is the first two shots were fatal and the shooter went down. Those shots were taken with cover and support without the shooter shooting at Eli. Eli shot 8 more times with 6 more hitting the shooter.
I’ve often said (especially when defending my faster first shot with irons over a dot) that the first shots count the most but they have to be accurate. I shot carry optics this weekend, had 82 A’s and 2 C’s, came in second overall. I need to work on speed with the dot but I will not purposely let my accuracy get any worse.
The report I’ve seen but not verified of course is the first two shots were fatal and the shooter went down. Those shots were taken with cover and support without the shooter shooting at Eli. Eli shot 8 more times with 6 more hitting the shooter.
I’ve often said (especially when defending my faster first shot with irons over a dot) that the first shots count the most but they have to be accurate. I shot carry optics this weekend, had 82 A’s and 2 C’s, came in second overall. I need to work on speed with the dot but I will not purposely let my accuracy get any worse.
From the first shot from the bad guy Eli returned fired and took him out within 15 seconds. I'd say he was going fast.
Goes without saying that misses don't count
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Gunfighters like Jim Cirillo, Bill Allard, Frank Hamer, Jelly Brice, heck going all the way back to Bill Hickok say to use the sights and get good hits when the conditions allow it. Up close and personal speed matters, no doubt. In the case of the Mall shooting Dickens had a couple of advantages and he used it to the maximum.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
LOL, many thanks Pacecars, i appreciate it greatly Sir, these dang handgunner dudes have all the fun, this was a blast.
I was walking North, saw the threat, turned and fired Dew West, that old Baer 45 ACP is an easy Cadillac, and the devil damning me straight to hell would be the only reason i'd be found in a mall, that said, the old 1911 is what i carry to church, city, nice dinners, wedding/funerals etc, so if in a mall i'd have it on my belt, those 230 gold dots at 950 are easy recoiling loads in that all steel pistol.
Thanks again Sir.
Jerry, why do you dislike Derek Jeter so much?
Hey Big G, LOL, i had to google, i dont keep up with any sports, why, does ole split-eared Cal fulla holes look like Jeter?
I have to apologize for the chit camera work, even had a freshly laundered walked through old holey sock that is now a new gun rag tucked neatly in my pocket to hold cell nice and square for filming the drill, i didnt take into account when a man brings his grip together firing a handgun my giant left moobie would tilt the camera inward wrecking the view, it was damn fun anyway,
It the rush of people try to scatter, it is not easy for the bad guy to observe one person 40 yards away, maybe partially behind cover, drawing, and aiming a weapon.
If the good guy can make a hit with his first shot, he has taken the initiative away from the bad guy. The bad guy is realizing he got hit, and trying to see where it came from, and/or seeking cover. Maybe suffering from tunnel-vision, also.
While this is happening the good guy probably has time to make a second hit.
Just some thoughts.
Some very valid thought. A. It makes sense B. From a combat proven veteran
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
[quote=jmd025][quote=dla] I'm not in the cop business and I have no obligation to be a hero. I'm not carrying a gun to protect the public
I.e. shootings that don't involve me - don't involve me.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
My you are unbearably stupid. Can you use the bathroom without getting [bleep] on your t-shirt?
Is all that you have left in the way of an argument, personal insults? If Elijah Dickens had ran away instead of confronting the mass shooter the death toll would have been much higher, instead of doing nothing he chose to stand up against evil. What would you have done if you were in Elijah's place, there with someone that matters to you, your wife, child or grandchild? Would you have engaged or fled?
He would run. Which is understandable, because he thinks the PF9 is a great EDC.
Well i just got a couple nice compliments from a couple traveling hands that blow through Ft Chaffee every now and then, they read this site but haven't joined as members, i told em about the campfire 13 years ago when i joined, they're the guys that i went through those shoot houses with and tried to teach me some about hand gunning, "Good shooting old man, you aint slipped much," and "you put some GD smoke on that blade papaw, sounds like it was fired from a crossbow" LOL, again this stuff is fun, i can definitely see the draw some of you have to handguns.
Well i just got a couple nice compliments from a couple traveling hands that blow through Ft Chaffee every now and then, they read this site but haven't joined as members, i told em about the campfire 13 years ago when i joined, they're the guys that i went through those shoot houses with and tried to teach me some about hand gunning, "Good shooting old man, you aint slipped much," and "you put some GD smoke on that blade papaw, sounds like it was fired from a crossbow" LOL, again this stuff is fun, i can definitely see the draw some of you have to handguns.
Do you stretch before you start blowing yourself?
LOL
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
Since I’ve read several references here to nobody using their J frame or LCP they supposedly carry, and since I most often carry a J frame. I went out and shot my two most often carried guns this evening.
Target was a 14”x14” steel square at 42yd. Both guns drawn from under my t shirt out of an IWB holster. Both loaded with full power 158gr SWCs.
2” M15 showed 4 out of 6 hits in 8 seconds. 2” M36 I ran 5 for 5 in 9 seconds.
I’m no Rob Leatham obviously.
I commend the mall hero on his shooting, he was prepared and did a great job.
I decided to try something different today..didn’t go so well, my nickname is Tex ..
we've picked on ole Tex an aweful lot here. it's neevr not fun, however watching his" follow up" to this video is way, way fun
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
Mon-Fri I carry a Sig P320 AXG LE with a DPP, OWB under a suit jacket. Evenings and weekends I carry Sig P365 XL with a Holosun 507K, IWB. I have never shot any handgun at 40 yards before, which got me wondering where the bullets would even hit. I figured if I hadn't bothered to prepare then practicing before this test would be cheating; so I decided to run this cold. No warm ups, just business. I didn't shoot it with carry ammo, but I don't know what difference it would have made.
1st run was with the P320. 10 shots in 11.79 seconds. They're all in the red, but there isn't much more to say than that.
Then it was the P365. Only 9/10 found the red in 13.93 seconds. My draw was all barfed up so I made up for it by yanking the first shot into the stratosphere.
Mon-Fri I carry a Sig P320 AXG LE with a DPP, OWB under a suit jacket. Evenings and weekends I carry Sig P365 XL with a Holosun 507K, IWB. I have never shot any handgun at 40 yards before, which got me wondering where the bullets would even hit. I figured if I hadn't bothered to prepare then practicing before this test would be cheating; so I decided to run this cold. No warm ups, just business. I didn't shoot it with carry ammo, but I don't know what difference it would have made.
1st run was with the P320. 10 shots in 11.79 seconds. They're all in the red, but there isn't much more to say than that.
Then it was the P365. Only 9/10 found the red in 13.93 seconds. My draw was all barfed up so I made up for it by yanking the first shot into the stratosphere.
That's still good shooting at 40 yards. No one said that young Dickens had all "A" zone hits, or all "X"s, at least, not that I've heard, anyway. Any hit is going to distract another being. You done good.
You can roll a turd in peanuts, dip it in chocolate, and it still ain't no damn Baby Ruth.
Mon-Fri I carry a Sig P320 AXG LE with a DPP, OWB under a suit jacket. Evenings and weekends I carry Sig P365 XL with a Holosun 507K, IWB. I have never shot any handgun at 40 yards before, which got me wondering where the bullets would even hit. I figured if I hadn't bothered to prepare then practicing before this test would be cheating; so I decided to run this cold. No warm ups, just business. I didn't shoot it with carry ammo, but I don't know what difference it would have made.
1st run was with the P320. 10 shots in 11.79 seconds. They're all in the red, but there isn't much more to say than that.
Then it was the P365. Only 9/10 found the red in 13.93 seconds. My draw was all barfed up so I made up for it by yanking the first shot into the stratosphere.
Good shooting Waders! And that's why I love my P365, with the same RDO as yours.
Haven't been able to shoot for almost 2 weeks because of thumb surgery but today I got back out there with my Browning Hi Power & my 4" model 28 S&W. I was shooting 124 gr cast powder coated TC bullets in the Hi Power, my standard load, & as always iron sights. In the 357 model 28 I was shooting 128 gr cast powder coated +P 38 specials. My timer only picked up 5 shots so the time had to be slower that what is shown on the clock. I was shooting single action, cocking with my left thumb. The trigger is serrated & is a little rough to shoot double action. The holster is a Mike Barranti, Hank Sloan model. Dick
Layoffs are a b!tch!!! But, bad guys don’t work around my training schedule. Seeing all the great targets, I am embarrassed to post these, but here goes. I do carry smaller guns a lot. I do shoot them at longer distances, but I haven’t done that on the clock, and the wheels fell off when I tried.
Both guns were shot from the same Bladetech Stache IWB at 3:30 concealed under an untucked Polo shirt. I had to do a POA and POI check with both because the first is new and the one with the optic had the battery tray screw and battery tray walk out when I started to do this drill a couple of days earlier.
With the first gun I had one miss and one hit that barely touched the D zone line on the left side (seen a few inches above the bore). It was more of a shotgun pattern. Time was 12.40 with one shot after 12 seconds.
The gun is a Sig P365 .380. 19 ounces loaded with 10. I got it a couple of months ago and only put a couple hundred rounds through it so far. I can do much better with not a lot of effort. (My first shot was sundial slow.) This thing is an absolute hoot to shoot! I haven't shot it enough to carry, but I am getting tempted.
Next up was the P365 9mm with a Holosun 407K X2. 23.8 ounces loaded with 10. I’ve had this one a while. It was challenging. 14.61 with 2 A, 4 C, 3 D, 1 miss. Shot 8 was at 12.16, shot 9 at 13.28. Slow first shot. This is embarrassing because I have shot this gun a lot.
Although I can up the accuracy, this one is going to be harder to do under 12 seconds because of the recoil difference from the .380. With some more practice, I am pretty sure that I can do it with the .380. That’s going on the to-do list for after hunting season.
Live and learn. Thanks, Bluedreaux!
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
To quote the late Pat Rogers, “Learning has occurred,” which I think was the purpose of the drill. I went out yesterday to shoot my bow and brought along the Sig P365 .380. I hadn’t shot since my last post and I started cold with the gun IWB at 3:30 under an untucked Polo shirt. (Sorry, I’m running out of targets and shot the one form last week.) I still haven’t accomplished a clean run within the time parameters. The first run was 9.41 with 4A, 3C, 1D, and 2 misses. I slowed down some and run 2 was a 10.86 with 2A, 2C, 4D and 2 misses. I actually did worse than run 1. I did run 3 slower still at 12.17, with the last shot just after 12 seconds, with 3A, 5C and 2D hits and no misses. Closer, anyway.
The bad part is that I love shooting this little gun and trying this drill with it, which is distracting me from the 9mm. Now, before you all start saying that a .380 round will bounce off someone at 40 yards, consider this. I bought a pine 2”X4” stud and 2 pieces of 22 steel sheet metal. Before the Dicken Drill appeared on the scene, I had taped the 2 pieces of sheet metal to the 2X4 and shot the arrangement from 10 yards with both a 90 grain Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator and a 100 grain Buffalo Bore hard cast out of the Sig, and they both blew through the board and 2 pieces of sheet metal and disappeared into the unknown. I have to do some more Bubba testing and chronograph work, but I think either of those rounds will leave more than a mark at 40 yards.
Stay Safe.
Last edited by Cheyenne; 08/17/22.
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
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