The USS Connecticut's is said to be in stable condition after the Thursday incident with damage inspections on going....

Link


Phil

"something" If they can't figure out what they hit then we have wasted 100s of billions on sub tech. WTF

Phil MuhCrotch

The crew of the SeaWolf know exactly what they hit. The crew of the "something" only had a "WHAT THE..." moment. But in Chinese or Korean.

They know exactly what they hit, but they can't say so publicly. There's another thread already going on about this. It was more than likely, a PRC sub.
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt.../16506906/can-the-navy-quit#Post16506906

No [bleep].

If they rammed a PRC sub then the crew are idiots and we wasted billions in training.

What Rocky said............ ^

We don't know who hit whom - and never will.

Lol.

No.

Sorry they hit your hero's sub.

So that's the plan. Naval warfare 101. Bump into enemy subs and then everyone else know they are there.

I imagine the other something is on the bottom. Crew hollering sumting wong. Hasbeen

Play stupid chicken games, breath seawater.

As Rocky said.

You have absolutely no idea of what happened or know anything about submarines.Sometimes chit is hit on purpose as a warning.The ChiComs know it but we cannot admit it.Been there ,done it.

I never claimed to know naval submarine warfare. So far I'm unimpressed.

So you think they bumped it on purpose as a warning? Well I would think a simple ping at close quarters would have accomplished the same thing and saved OUR ship the damage, for well, I don't know, engaging in submarine warfare if needed.


How this can be spun as anything other than a screw up I can't figure.

Naval academy training film. LOL

Those that think it was intentional :
1) This means they knew the precise location of the enemy sub using some unknown tech?
2) What makes you think the enemy sub was sunk?

What makes you think the Chinese did not ram us!!!

I’m happy our guys are ok. Couldn’t care less about China.

I am not a submariner, but one scenario I can envision is that our sub was shadowing and recording the sounds of another sub. The other sub, having no clue that we were even there, proceeded to learn otherwise by blundering into ours.

I am positive that our guys knew the bearing and range of the other, but have no idea if they can pinpoint depth accurately enough to know if an approaching sub would pass under or over them by a few feet. Maneuvering quickly to get out of the way would likely reveal themselves, which is a choice they may have wished to avoid. And I will not surmise either way.

Fighter pilots say "The first one to light up dies." That refers to radar or afterburners, but I'd bet the same thing applies to subs in different ways.

Anyone here think the Thresher blew up/sank on it's own, back in the day?

The Chinee are playing dangerous games in their backyard and have a man in the WH who won't do anything overtly not in China's interest.

In underwater 3-D ocean chess, one can get rooked, check-mated, or just lose a pawn, by accident or design.

We will never know.

This stuff has been going on for 50+ years. Once again, read "Blind Man's Bluff". It's a very interesting book. My wife's nephew's FIL was the engineering officer during one of the incidents.
Blind Man's Bluff

As spending time as a sonar operator ,you not only know how far the boat is from you ,but what type it is by the screw signature and probably even know which one it is.Hell I am talking over 50 years ago.I can only imagine how much better it is now.As far as Old Hat goes,he sure likes to flap his gums about things he has absolutely no knowledge of.My Dad used to say better to keep your mouth shut and have people think you are stupid,then to open it and prove it.Huntz

It hit Phil's phist dìldo.

The pace drummer.....was he one of the rolling stones....before or after Keith richards?

Was,nt there a game of chicken called Crazy Ivan? With the Rissians Sub turning around as we followed them and came straight at our Sub. Is there any truth to that?

Most Correct..... WE WILL NEVER KNOW. Makes for good 24 HCF tho' ..... eh?

If they knew the enemy was so close that a ram was possible then getting out the way would be better than letting them possibly ram them.

Why:
Option 1) Letting the enemy hit them. If rammed they would reveal their position and be damaged in an undetermined way rendering the ship and crew in grave danger and possibly not being able to respond.
Option 2) Moving. They would reveal their position, but still be a fully functional combat ready sub.

Seems like a fcking no brainier to me.

As I said, I'm not a submariner, and you clearly aren't, either.

That does seem like a good book. Maybe I will read it some day, but until then ...

How does what is revealed in the book make what we see here seem like anything other then a screw up?

I mean, guess what, they know we were there and our sub is damaged and the crew was in grave danger.

No, as I said, I'm not, but I have a brain which I use to reason with. Risk/gain analysis does not require submarine training.

The better then tech you assume we have, and I agree, I'm sure we have verey impressive tech, the more unimpressive the damaged sub becomes.

Some day we have to stop idolizing everything our military does and face realty and ask hard questions.

The only questions that count are the ones that are asked at the official inquiry. We will not be asked to participate and probably not even be entitled to read about it at a later date. Some future Tom Clancy may make a veiled reference to it in some yet to be written book. It makes for some damn fine speculation, but that's about it. I'm still laughing about "sum ting wong, sum ting wong". I can't stop chuckling.

kwg

Yeah, actually, we’re all pretty sure she was lost during sea trials due to faulty brazing, welding. Crew and shipyard personnel around 129 lost. This caused the Navy to rethink how they certify certain systems and brought about the implementation of the SUBSAFE Certification Program.

The one you’re thinking about, Scorpion, that’s another story…

Proceeded by the phrase "Ho Lee Sheet"! "sum ting wong, sum ting wong".

Thresher actually had some measure of voice comms with surface ships right up to the end.

Guess they never clean the windshields on those damn things!

No, the only questions which will be officially answered will be at the inquiry. That is not in any way the same as the only questions that count. Tom Clancy is for armchair admirals in their recliners.

They don't handle like a speed boat.

Sheesh

Don't you have a buddy on one? Remember you posting he gave you a very nice rifle.

It was a mistake, but not the major blunder some think it is. When you're doing a very dangerous job, sh*t sometimes happens. We didn't intentionally ram it, but these things happen. OTOH, the Chinese probably had to send their shorts to the laundry. One minute, they think they're all alone, and the next, they get hit. Now that I think some more about it, maybe the love tap was intentional. It'll really mess with all the Chinese crews heads if they know they're up against an opponent that they could be in the sights of, and not even know it. Head games is where it's at. Also, that the USN isn't afraid to play rough.

Someone needs to tell the submariners, I guess.

He is shore side right now, thankfully.

1) Again. *commonsense* says pinging them at close range would mess with their head. Sneaking up behind somebody does not require a shove to scare the [bleep] out of them Just a shout at close range will do it. And, golly, in that scenario the sub would still be *battle ready*(you know the actual purpose of a submarine) instead of going to port for repairs, while announcing to the world we were doing.
2) I'd say a major blunder is letting the enemy know you were right next to them yet could not figure out enough info to prevent us from ramming them. Really, what the hell good is that. They now KNOW we can't hear them. They now KNOW their subs are pretty good. They gained intel from the blunder.


The more you think about it, the more you realize this was a dumb move. We have to get past the useless idea our military can do no wrong.

There's a lot going on in the Pacific right now than meets the eye. China is threatening Taiwan, who we have traditionally protected. The Philippines are also yielding to China.
The Admiral of the 7th fleet stated he wasn't going to have an Afghanistan incident on his hands yesterday.

Oh, and president Pinocchio signed some kind of UN agreement to allow the Chinese into our country to "help us" in time of crisis.

There's a lot of moving pieces to the puzzle.

Good.

I bet the captain of the US boat was gay and wanted to defect to the Chinese.


Yep.

No. Now they know they can't hear us but we know exactly where they are. They know their subs aren't as good as they were told they were. How would you feel if you found out you'd have to fight someone you can't see but they can see you.

Yeah...strongly encouraged to take a little break so he didn't burn out his men!

Good excuse for mandatory vax and racial equality indoctrination training.

.

WTF?

Got a link for that?

There are a whole bunch of morons posting on this thread that don't know a damn thing about the USN or naval warfare. They should just go play in traffic and let the USN take care of business on the high seas.

Navy Chief (Ret.)

Link???
Source????

Aint heard zilch about that UN agreement.

Ex-FUCKING-scuse me!

I know, that comms tape and that story, preceded every SUBSAFE Program and QA School the Navy ever sent me too. They always used to say "That SubSafe Certification Manual" was written in their blood...

"The Hunt for Pink October"

Huh? Like I said, this would have been more effectively accomplished by pinging them when we are on top of them. It makes no freaking sense to ram them just to let them know we can see them but they can't see us.

If we rammed them intentionally because we knew they were there. Then we are idiots. If we rammed them because we did not know they were there then they know we can't hear them.

If we ping them when next to them then they know we can hear them and they can't hear us. Goal accomplished.

I'm not a moron. I'm not going to play in traffic. I am certainly going to let the navy run the navy, obviously.

My only point is I can't in any scenario see how this was not a major blunder.

Probably the same feeling Clarice Starling had in The Silence of the Lambs when she faced off with Buffalo Bill in the basement scene where it was pitch black and he had the night vision goggles……his outreached hand, her waving her 38 around……

At this point all we know is that the NEWS said the sub hit something which gives the impression that our boat did the hitting but the only ones that know are the crew members. Whale? Unknown seamount? Another.sub?

In the end, we (meaning those of us here on the “Fire) will never know what it was unless 1.it was an unknown object and the Navy wants the public to know. or 2. the Chicoms report a problem with one of their boats. If there was another boat involved we’ll never know who was the “hitter” and who was the “hittee”. Political points and intelligence could be gained from either scenario. Even if the CO remains or he is relieved, that wouldn’t be proof of an “accident “ or an “accidentally on purpose” bump either. Only the board of inquiry and those with a need to know will be privy to the info.

Maybe Rdensck will check in.
I think he knows a little about subs.

Then let the Chief enlighten you. Noted hazards to navigation are charted and a sub is only going to operate in an area submerged if they have up to date charts. Given the location of this the best bet is China was doing something crazy. Perhaps China is building something or moved something into the area without notifying the International Maritime organizations as required. Or they may have been trailing one of our subs very closely. We used to do that with Russia. The sonar on a sub isn't very effective out the ass end because the cavitation of the screw churns the water so if they were right on out tail they are hard to detect. My money is on the tailing scenario.

Fools like you have watched too many movies and don't have a clue about operating on the ocean. Yet you're here flapping your gums which makes you a moron. Collisions at sea are not new and they aren't that rare. But in today's world things get news coverage when they didn't 20 years ago. Get it?

Now go play in traffic.

Maybe a lost shipping container?

Bruce

Been a looooong time, but I still remember filling out those SUBSAFE work packages, and staring at that hydro pump chugging away testing repairs.

Addition of the emergency ballast tank blow system was another outcome of the loss of Thresher, and there were some design and operations changes on the reactor to improve overall survivability.

Not sure there's been anything close to a serious event pointing at flaws in the the basic overall sub design since then. I'm not saying I felt bad about collecting hazardous duty pay, but the record since the 60s has been pretty good.

None of that really mitigates running into stuff though, that's a whole 'nother story.

I don't watch any navy war movies.

You seem to be proposing that the Chinese were tailing and did the hitting with out us knowing. Okay. The common theme here is that we hit them, and that was what I was addressing. If they hit us because we could not detect them then that is bad news for us.

If there is a war I suspect the Chinese may place uncharted objects in the ocean for us to run into. That seems like a problem.

Great.

Please address the navigational "misshaps" the last fews years off our own coast.

Guys with big balls, playing with big toys, in a politically and militarily hostile region, and an even more hostile environment.

What could go wrong?

There are elements of the military that operate on the edge.

Neverbeen second guessers abound...

Thanks Chief

I'm not buying the "ignorant act" ....they have a real good idea. Probably some secret Chinese mission to Taiwan.

Arrgh, you are right- Scorpion.

The real question is, is it an accident, Chinese grabassery or an engineered event designed test out a response.

Take it to grinder.

Were you on subs?

Crazy Ivan was a midstride full reverse as described by Tom Clancy in Red October.

Eight years ago, the San Francisco drove head first into the side of an undersea mountain. How the fugg that happened I have no idea. Even an antique inertial positioning system should have been more accurate than that.

In the case of the Connecticut, a couple theories have been advanced. One being a shipping container suspended midlevel in the ocean. That is entirely plausible, as even the largest container would be totally undetectable by anything other than active sonar. Which has been explained earlier is almost never used by a submerged vessel.

Enemy subs usually make some noise, even if if suspended in a static position. There will be air circulation and some slight machinery noise. But the newest generations of diesel-electric are damned quiet when running on battery.

With the highest tech sonar we have available, our boat would have to be very close to hear them.

We may never know. Maybe they drove her into the side of a mountain. Maybe they hit a mine. Maybe the Chi-coms dropped a depth charge or a torpedo on her.

And then, just possibly, they had heard faint whispers from another boat, and they were trying to isolate or flush the target.

Ever step on a pheasant before it flushed?

I would say the survival after an undersea collision of the San Francisco is a testament to the efficacy of the sub-safe program. As will be the safe arrival of the Connecticut into harbor.

Well, I was NOT a submariner, but I spent 20+ years assessing, pulling, overhauling, collimating and reinstalling periscopes and their fairings, and other masts and antennas in the sail.
I remember 100% procedural compliance to what was written in those SUBSAFE or Controlled Work Packages, or (best case) stripes tend to fall off of your shirt, and (worst case), a catastrophic failure and sailors die.
I remember making round covers for two removed periscopes (that's a pair of 7.5" holes right into the people tank!), in prep for a rare hurricane that came through New London back in the 90's. 3/8" steel plate, cut to fit just inside the bolt pattern of the hull gland, lined with common rubber gasket material, glued in place, and held snug with some double nutted all-thread. That boat broke her storm lines about 2100 or so and was drifting in the Thames River. Her CO put her on the river bottom, with only those steel plates and rubber gaskets in place, and she stayed dry. (phew...)

No one is questioning anyone's ball size.

Good video. Thanks.

Guy has some great videos especially on analyzing sonar.

I'm going to accept the retired sonarman's video analysis as the best probable scenario. I was unaware of the bottom topography in that region, but if it is anything like that of Vietnam, it is a scary place to "fly" submerged. Worse, in fact, being largely uncharted.

Very good video. Once we were in a port and had orders to be available to be back aboard in one hour if necessary to go to the aid of an icebreaker that put a hole in it's hull by some uncharted rocks. It happens.

Why cannot people just deal with the known facts, or at least the currently reported facts? All we publicly know is that one of our subs struck something in the South China Sea and our sub sustained some degree of damage. We do not know if we were the striker or the strikee or maybe a combination of both. We do not know what our sub encountered - another submerged vessel, a surface vessel, a natural or man-made sub-surface object/structure, or maybe an alien sub-sea craft. Maybe it was Godzilla or some other sea monster? Depending on the circumstances, we may never publicly know the circumstances of the incident. It is a real possibility that the circumstances should remain secret from public knowledge, or not. Not my call as I am not in that chain of command. Sure, I am curious as well, but I understand that there are some things I do not need to know. Naval submarine operations are by nature somewhat clandestine. They are the "silent service".

There are a lot of sub mishaps, thankfully most don't result in heavy damage and loss of life. Some with the sub tied up and not at fault, and some are just down right funny...

Like this one, when in doubt, keep going, and ad power. If that still doesn't work... ad more power.

On 23 April 1984, ASR-13 Kittiwake a sub rescue vessel collided with the attack submarine USS Bergall (SSN-667) at Norfolk, Virginia, while Bergall was moored to the pier astern of her. Kittiwake was getting underway for the first time since she had undergone maintenance, during which her main drive motor was re-wired improperly, causing it and the screw it drove to rotate in the opposite direction from that ordered by personnel on Kittiwake's bridge. This was unknown to Kittiwake's bridge personnel, who found that Kittiwake started to move astern when they were expecting her to move forward. Noting the backward motion, they ordered an increase in the motor drive speed in order to correct it and get Kittiwake moving forward, but unwittingly caused Kittiwake to move farther astern and at a higher speed. Still not realizing that Kittiwake's main drive motor was operating in reverse of what they expected, Kittiwake's bridge personnel then ordered another increase in Kittiwake's forward speed, which served only to increase her speed astern. This continued until Kittiwake's stern backed into Bergall's sonar dome, causing damage to the Bergall's sonar dome and the USS Kittiwake's propeller.


Phil

I like his video

He spent 15 minutes reading other org’s news blips to us.

Compelling

Repetitiously. I kind of think he may be right in that they bumped something on or near the bottom, tho

.Unless it is topside. Then they back-doored a fishing boat..... smells like fish......

Whales will get out of your way

But I’m fat and unemployed and how ‘we’ used to detect stuff like that is still classified
I can tell you tho, we mopped on Saturdays

Cool

Only thing I’m sure of is that the Captain’s career is over. I have friends I’m that community and the only thing they are saying is that the sub is a mess. Whatever they hit or got hit by it was a hard hit.

Maybe yes,maybe no.The XO of the last boat I was on dad was an Admiral.While docked in Key West for some reason he had the interlock on the torpedo tubes defeated in the forward torpedo room.He then had the inner door opened with the outer door open.Almost sank the boat at the dock.The episode was squelched.Still every one in New London managed to know.He was an idiot.Could have a relative of Slo Joe.

No worries. The military industrial complex has lots of sonar domes. LOL

They needed Captain Ron.

...and his drawings were top notch.

I am pretty sure no one on here knows what happened onboard the Connecticut. Someday in the future we may, but after a Navy inquiry and it’s declassified. These new boats can travel fast and do not turn or stop on a dime.
The simplest answer might be the right one. Charts have never been close to 100% in the open sea. They are better now than ever, but still subject to missed underwater obstacles especially in the pacific rim area. Underwater volcano’s and upheavals are quite common.The sea floor there is active and subject to change.
The SCS is a busy place, lots of entity’s jockeying for position. I was in the Navy aboard submarines as a Quartermaster in the years ‘64-68. Spent almost 12 months in and around the South China Sea on a diesel boat. Then later, three patrols on a boomer in the North Atlantic.
It is fun to think about it like a Tom Clancy novel and maybe it will be a chapter in one someday. For the brave men that go to sea in submarines, no matter what happened, it was their worst nightmare. I hope all are well and the boat can be repaired and return to sea to protect us all.

The peace time military is NOT a meritocracy.

He should have added some sht talk so we all could laugh.

And I'm guessing that you've never operated on the edge of anything but the dinner table.

I'm hoping it was a Godzilla egg tgat hatched and washed ashore mainland China.

Is your statment (or any of the other posts you made in this thread) base on experience? Or just some random bullchit you read somewhere?

Fugk yourself.


Fucgking estrogen drowned bitch.

This is likely the most plausible explanation.

Sorry Mr. Clear.

Didnt mean to step on your [bleep].

I retired from a career in the Fast Attack Submarine Navy and just got home from a reunion of shipmates that I served with on an attack submarine with over 40 years ago. USS Dace SSN-607, a Thresher Class submarine and my first ship. Honorable men and their spouses at that reunion. The public has no idea what attack submarines are called on to do and there’s a reason for that. After becoming a Chief when I had young sailors report into my division I’d tell them that “You aren’t here to earn college credit through the G.I. Bill. You’re here to crew an undersea warship built to kill men and blow [bleep] up. If you don’t learn to do your job better than your enemy, they will kill you or blow your [bleep] up. Keep that in mind” Attack submarines go where they want, when they want, as they want in all the worlds oceans, including under the ice at the top of the world. They are the original stealth weapon. Attack submarines collect intelligence on America’s adversaries and enemies among many other things. To do that you have to be where America’s adversaries are, when they are there, sometimes close aboard. It can’t be done sitting on the couch wringing your hands or from a comfortable distance. Attack submarines go “in harms way” in service of their Country. Proudly. To say that Connecticut’s collision was a “blunder” displays absolute ignorance about the mission that attack submarines are called on to do. There are attack submarines on patrol in all of the world’s oceans right now and every minute of every day. 24/7/365. They do it while you’re sleeping, sitting in the woods with your favorite rifle, and are celebrating Christmas with your loved ones. You’re welcome. As the old submariner’s saying goes, “I’ve got more time sitting on the shytter at test depth than…” Oldhat has even spent thinking about Attack Submarine operations. GMAFB about the analysis of what happened to USS Connecticut. She was on a mission “Of strategic importance to the National Security Interests of the United States of America,” and she wasn’t crewed by idiots. That’s all you need to know, or probably will ever know. And that’s as it should be. Got any scratches on your favorite hunting gun? If you take it out of the cabinet and use it hard I’m betting that you do. Attack Submarines are one of the American military’s favorite hunting guns. They get taken out of the cabinet, sent to sea in harms way and get used hard. We should be proud of that, not talk [bleep] about something we know nothing about. And for the record, I’ve heard “One single ping” used in a strategic situation exactly zero times. It’s a great line for a movie, that is all.

fshaw, IIRC, your boat had also 'been there and done that'

hats off to you, I have many friends from and at Kings Bay.........

Spare me the campfire drivel.

The discussion in this thread has been dominated by people who seem to think our sub purposely rammed a Chinese sub. I pointed out how if that is the case that is stupid.

I also pointed out that it is not really possible to paint this as anything other than a very large and expensive mistake. So what do you think?

Do you believe the peace time military is a meritocracy?

It's not, sorry.

Hypothetically, do you think ramming an enemy sub is a pro move during peace time?

Maybe "ping" is not the term of art for submariners, but lets use it as a descriptive for warning your enemy that you have the more sophisticated tech and have the "draw" on them. I wonder if pings are used in tactical situations during peace time.

I don't see the scratched gun analogy, sorry.

The sub cost billions and came back to port to be fixed for perhaps hundreds of millions and while it is fixed the sub is unavailable for doing very important sub stuff at a time when important sub stuff is very important.

If you are saying mistakes happen and this was a mistake, I agree.

For the record, I have never even set foot on a submarine. I do have a brain though.

Old Hat, the current thought is that they probably hit an uncharted undersea mountain, not another sub. That can only be characterized as an accident, not a mistake. Assuming, of course, that the mountain theory is correct.

We've now heard from at least two genuine sub experts in this thread, both of whom contradict your totally uninformed ideas. A wise man would now withdraw in silence.

Old Hat.
We don't know.
Probably won't ever know.


I've done a bunch of jobs in my life, nothing as unique as Submariner.
Not even in the military.
But some of those jobs are nothing like one would expect from the outside.
Truck driving is one example.

I hear people talking about trucks and the job,
takes about 20 seconds to tell if they have calluses on their ass
Or are talking through it.

Take the hint.
Take a break.

Thanks for your service!



Thanks for your service, too!

Since Thresher was accompanied by a surface tracking/rescue ship, I think that it is more likely that it sank due to a design or construction failure than from enemy action. The surface ship would have heard another submarine in the area when it was tracking the Thresher from close range.

One of my high school classmates was a submariner, serving on the Snook, Haddo, and Bergall during his 8 years in the USN. He said that it was unusual for a salor to be assigned to 3 different classes of boats in consecutive assingments, but I don't know if that is true or just his experience. He did tell me that the Bergall was the best boat that he was on, but the crew he served with on the Haddo was the best. He said that he liked serving in the Mediterranean better than the Pacific because the shore leave was better and there was so much traffic in the Med that the crew was always busy tracking multiple contacts.

Oldhat,

Do you believe that the world is at peace?

Do you believe that the US Military is not in engagement with anyone, anywhere currently?

And a mouth, if only obviously

Connect them if you can

Submarines never bump or "ram" each other intentionally. Ever. Sea pressure is 44lbs/square inch/100 feet of depth. Much better to keep the green monster on the outside of the people tank. Surprised that anyone would even consider it a possibility.

Sorry you don't get the "used gun" vs safe queen analogy. I type too slow to explain it in detail.

Submarines also don't "warn" other submarines, or anyone else, of their position. remaining undetected is the foundation of every mission. Ping is the correct term, to ping is to be detected.

An honest question Oldhat, You ever serve on active duty in theater?

Thanks Muffin. I went to a submarine reunion held at Kings Bay, quite a place. Got a tour on a Trident Class ballistic missile boat. Amazing piece of engineering manned by a dedicated group of young men that will make you proud to be an American. Proudly wear a tee shirt from their Chief's Club where we were welcomed. Pride runs deep.

To be fair, OldHat is not stupid. There are other threads where he is cogent and rational. Here, however, he is (to pun) out of his depth.

He may be excused for imagining that "movie" tactics are either factual or acceptable in real life. Many people believe the stunts in Top Gun represent actual air combat, for example. Heck, there are people who believe we can do Star Trek stuff. Neither are true.

I said nothing based on information. Remember, we don't know and will probably never know. Read more carefully. I pointed out the illogic in others reasoning.


What exactly is the relationship between accidents and mistakes. I mean don't mistakes sometimes cause accidents. Hmmm ...

Thanks for your service CPO or was it COB?.I never served on a Nuc,but had plenty experience on the old diesel electric sewer pipes.We had some pretty sophisticated sonar installed for North Atlantic runs in the winter to listen and identify Soviet Subs.Not as exciting as what you experienced ,but I was still proud to be a Submariner(Bubblehead)

How does a sub hit an undersea mount? Maybe I missed this somewhere in the thread. Do they not have some sort of radar to detect these things or are they running blind based on charts to stay undetected?

I like this kind of discussion. The US is at peace. We have no declared war with a peer foe.

So the gist of your reasoning is that a dangerous world, intense training, high risk missions and cat and mouse engagements on the high seas is equivalent to combat. I disagree. Do you really think WW2 vets would call what the current navy does war?

Do you believe the peace time military is a meritocracy?

Old Ass Hat,the only thing I believe is that you are an idiot and its too bad you mother was not woke and had used birth control.

Thank you. That has been my position all along.

So all we know is the sub hit "something".


I certainly understand it. This is the campfire. Insult is about the only response most here have.


This makes very good sense. I never in any way suggested this happens. If you read the thread you will see I only mention it because others were talking about educating our adversary about our dominance. I brought it up to point out the ill logic of ramming.


I NEVER offered an expert opinion so it does not matter one iota. I made reasoned comments about others speculation.

You could not pay me enough to do my tour of duty on a Sub! Hats off and slow hand salute to all you crazy bastids!

If you watch the video above he said they rely on sea charts. My understanding is when hunting they rely on passive sonar with extremely sophisticated signal processing.

I don't think anyone can actually tell us since it is secret.

If you put your completely speculative engineering hat on you can imagine other techniques such as a non hiding third party issuing signals which are then detected by the hiding party. Complete speculation on my part as I've never worked in the defense industry.

Old Hat, you DID early on suggest that subs make a "ping" to warn others of their presence. You have also equated an accident with a mistake, which is an unwarranted assumption. Not all accidents devolve from mistakes, whether due to mechanical issues or unknown hazards - such as uncharted underwater mountaintops.

The facts here are that a sub of ours suffered an impact from something. Nobody died and the sub is in no danger. (It has probably docked by now.) Anything and everything beyond those facts is speculation. I might add that it is baseless speculation by folks - including you and I - with a total lack of experience or knowledge about submarines.

As a midshipman, I spent an afternoon aboard an attack boat, pierside at Norfolk. Very interesting but it didn’t take long for me to think “no way”. 😊

While I was on the COMUSNAVCENT staff on the La Salle, we always had a former sub skipper on staff. The two that were on staff while I was there were REALLY, REALLY sharp guys. Very even keeled, level headed and just all around good guys too. No pompous a$$e$ there.

The most important thing in a sub is being undetected….no one knows you’re there. If you start actively emitting sonar to pick up underwater terrain or other vessels, anyone listening passively knows you’re there.

Think, Marco………..Polo. 😊

I've been lucky enough to get dockside tours of an Ohio missile boat, a Los Angeles attack boat, and a British diesel torpedo target boat (yes, they served as target for live-firing of targets against them! Inert torps, I hasten to add, and they were programmed to dive before impact, but the Brits did admit that they make a helluva clang when they don't!) Crisp salute to all my submariner brothers, your incalculable contributions are hereby acknowledged.

None of those experiences qualify me to make definitive statements about sub capability, I freely admit. I'll wait for any official announcements about the current situation and leave this thread at this point.

Edit: No, wait; one last comment. The 'Fire is like serving in a sub: as long as you're lurking in silence, you're safe. Emit one "ping" and you instantly get attacked.

What happened this time, who knows. But if you all bother to Google sub accidents you'd find that their has been many from all nations that have them, and even within just the last couple decades. Everything from running aground and hitting undersea mountains at full speed, hitting other subs, other ships, to surfacing and taking out fishing trawlers. A record that would equal the recent surface ships of the 7th fleet. High tech or not, not all are mechanical failure and mishaps. Sometimes things happen so fast that their is no stopping an incident once a sequence of events is put into motion. Not sub related, but these things always reminds me of the Navy's Honda Point incident of 8 Sep, 1923. involving 9 destroyers where 6 were lost and 23 sailors lost their lives.

Phil

Look at this another way. Capt. X is driving his sub track Captain Won Hung Lo's boat. Tensions are high in that area and Capt. X does your "One ping only." Capt. One Hung Lo thinks, Holy Chit, I'm being attacked and reacts accordingly. One would have to assume it's a case of chit seriously hitting the fane and the first shots of what could be the last ever world war for a few thousand years. Think about that scenario for a while.
Paul B.

If you read my first mention of ping you will see I never suggested pings were done as warnings. I repeat, I used the ping comment to point out the ill-logic of intentional ramming.

So the experienced here seem to say that whatever happened was a mistake, as in unintentional, where people seem to get all sensitive is as to whether there was any malpractice involved in the mistake. Yes, I know, big balls and all, and we don't know and the official inquiry will determine that and we won't ever know. We will see side effects, though, from which we can infer.

I'm glad everyone is safe.

Absolutely, I do. And I've never been Navy.



So the Skipper of this sub is an incompetent fool who committed an avoidable blunder and you want your tax money back.

I'd start a collection if you, and those like you would move to mainland China...

As only an outside observer here Hat, I’d say you’re digging an awfully deep hole. FWIW.

A guy that will strap himself into a veritable rocket so tight it has a 5"8" height limit and then travel mach 1 at a mile in the air wouldn't spend a month or so in a sub?!

They’re not exactly running blind. There’s a ton of background noise in the ocean. We have unbelievably sophisticated acoustic signal processing. The background noise is used as sonar. Unless they were running fast the background acoustics should let you see an obstruction. A nuclear submarine spends almost all of its time running slow so the reactors run on convection cooling. Without the pumps running the submarine is quieter than the ambient background noise. The seas around China are shallow and rivers even more constricted and shallow. Running into an uncharted sea mount is a possibility but I’m guessing it was man made whatever the boat hit or was hit by. The fact that they wanted to wait until the boat was back to Guam to acknowledge the problem tells me they really didn’t want to reveal where the boat had been. Keep unwanted eyes from tracking it back to where the incident happened.

Yep. Not enough maneuvering room inside a sub. 😊

A short derail for the Submariners here. USS Burrfish, reconnaissance of Yap, more specifically, Gagil Tomil island, August 18, 1944. A five man team from UDT 10 launched an inflatable ( first recorded UDT mission from a sub) to recon the island. John MacMahon, Robert Black and Howard Roeder(my great uncle) were captured and are still MIA to this day. Balls of steel, RIP UDT!

I've heard it posited that the sub skipper in question may lose his job due to this accident. I don't know and wouldn't care to guess.

I do know that he's been the skipper of a US Navy nuclear fast attack boat which operated in the South China Sea. Regardless of his future with the Navy, I'd buy his first beer any day and be proud to call him neighbor. And the same for any of his crew.

As a former cryptology guy in the Navy - our community provides DirSup on a lot of platforms.

Never met a stupid bobblehead. VERY bright guys. You don't become a sub officer without a lot of mental HP. IIRC an engineering or mathematics degree is required. No English majors or women's studies.

Re:peace time v war time Navy - I don't know. Only served in what's considered war time BUT the sub service is different IMO.

There is no such thing as peace time. The second you believe you're on a pleasure cruise - you're done. IMO, there's only various states of war and it likely differs adversary to adversary.

And while they're getting repaired, were we in active and open hostilities - she might still be on patrol.

Believe it or not - Navy boats can operate with damage.

Dillon: "But some of those jobs are nothing like one would expect from the outside."

NO job is! That is the one cumulative lesson I've taken away over 70 years, from a variety of prosaic jobs.

My wife makes me wear my reading glasses to do the dishes.

Ahhh... But Teal?

Was the war you served in a declared war with a peer enemy?
According to Oldhat it doesn't count if not.

Oldhat claims that the so-called peace time military is "not a meritocracy".

For my part, I recognize the sharper ends of the stick for what they are, but then, I never took McHale's Navy for a reality show.

Dunno. 2002 - 2006


Iraq an Astan were pretty hot then.

Not riding any subs, but always being where they are based, I can say I’ve seen more than one boat come in covered up, and perhaps dry docked at night with big tarps placed here and there. These were pretty much during the 80s and 90s as the Cold War was winding down. Sometimes you heard stuff, sometimes you heard about the weather.
One of my R4 Division Officers was the A-Nav on Parche back “in the day”. You could sure tell he wanted to share some sea stories, but he was the consummate professional warrior, and the most John would ever say was “read the book, Chief”…
I heard he passed only a few short years after he retired, he was a Mustang and taught me a lot (more then your average “O-ganger” should) about being a good Chief…

Tell that to the senior NCO's.

See if they agree.

You couldn't pack their saddle for them.

fshaw, I had the pleasure of several Boomer tours............... And I must say this, If you ain't seen one in drydock, you ain't seen one.............. they're freakin huge!!!

One ping.

One ping only Vasily.

When was the last actual “ declared war with a peer enemy”?

Ass hat if off base, IMO

I'm not sure which question you answered. I'll assume both.

I find it incomprehensible that someone would rate the minuscule casualties (0 due to combat) in the current navy to war. You are aware of what the US navy accomplished in WW2. I mean I shouldn't even have to ask.

Make your case. I'm all ears. In a peace time military what merits drive promotion. Pick your branch.



I never said he was an incompetent fool. I mean he drove the boat around for a long item with out running into anything. So obviously he has skill. He can have skill, be a great guy and graduate at the top of his class and still execute a major blunder, obviously.

Oh brother, I question culpability and you equate me to a communist. That is what the left does. The more I read and watch this forum the more I realize the difference between ideologies is simply what set of myths they believe.

I don't care about my tax dollars.

I'm not running for elected office. Never could and never would.

This is very insightful. I like your post, though given my unpopularity here maybe I should not say that. LOL

I would speculate, that is all I can do since I have zero inside knowledge, that there are ways to fingerprint (identify) the background noise sources (perhaps having fixed known positions) and even triangulate multiple signals to echo loacte with out ever emitting a source noise yourself.

Also, you got me thinking about heat signals. If you were close enough to the target and the target radiated heat into the water then you might be able to estimate proximity. The ocean temps drop significantly with depth so the heat signal would be more exaggerated the deeper you went. Obviously turbulence effects results. This is what a snakes pit Organ(pit viper) does. All it takes is a highly sensitive differential sensor and a lot of processing power.

Okay, now you got me thinking. Insects are known to be able to hone i on chemical identities with enormous accuracy - co2, pheromones, etc... I wonder if there are chemical signatures one might be able to identity near proximity as well.

The world of non visual sensing is very fascinating.

Can you list the various states of war? I mean really, we are not talking Clausewitz or Sun Tzu here, right.

I don't think anyone here believes submarines are pleasure cruises.

For the boots on the ground the risk was high and the dangers very, very real.

Do you really think the navy was in any real danger. I mean yes there was danger, but they were shooting fish in a barrel with impunity.

AssHat and Ass Toot, post alot alike.

I have no idea what you are saying, but technically it was WW2. I will concede that a conflict does not have to be declared by congress to be a war. Vietnam, Korea come to mind for sure.

What really defines a war are the number of casualties. Because the number of casualties are what shapes and molds the military that participates. Do a study of the Wehrmacht on the eastern front. That was a meritocracy.

When a military does not face an actual existential threat, I mean a real existential threat, it becomes a bureaucracy and bureaucracies never forge meritocracies. They are incompatible. Bureaucratic military organizations worry more about position, seniority and pensions.

The chinks got a ‘stealth sub’, no?

Sounds a lot like Mac from Predator to me -

“I seeee yooouuu!”

It may seem so, but you haven't been correct yet.

The 17 SEALS that lost their life in Extortion 17 thank you for your understanding and concern.

*plonk* (moron)

Nothing I said ever made light of individual deaths. They are very sad and my heart goes out to those families.

That said ...

https://www.quora.com/How-many-Navy-SEALs-have-been-killed-in-action-since-1962
"81 since desert storm, 4 in Panama, another 4 in Grenada, 49 listed in Vietnam, the cold war list has 3 prior to 1962, and one name duplicated, but the list holds 54 lines total. (50 eligible for your question)...
After this, the answer gets hazy, because there's a SEAL memorial that lists deaths overall, but not with any specific emphasis on whether they were KIA, other cause, or even natural causes from old age. I discovered the tentative total of "at least 188"

OBVIOUSLY, just standing on the deck of an aircraft carrier is dangerous, but as an organization the navy was never in any real danger over the last several decades. Yes, things may have happened, but that is very different than war with a peer navy.

I have a question, how many air to air combat missions have US military air wings engaged in in the last 30 years? I mean our fighters are designed to fight peer tech and peer pilots correct?

I'm not saying flying a modern combat fighter is not dangerous. It is! And I'm not saying flying a modern combat fighter does not take enormous skill and courage. It does.

Have you ever put more than 2 sentences together in any post here?

Mask up , Toots



FISH CAMP!

Here is a story posted on AP today reporting that a Navy Nuclear Engineer specializing in U.S. submarine technology, and his wife, have been arrested for trying to sell submarine nuclear information to "a foreign government." His traitorous actions could have endangered one helluva lot of submariners' lives, and U.S. subs. Hope they hang them both.

https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/n...bmarine-secrets-with-foreign-government/

L.W.

My community was very purple. I had Navy, Marines, Army, AF, NSA civilians, contractors and at least 2 other countries operators in my shop and we worked with other agencies and tier 1 assets.

I/we specialized in islamic extremism and Counter Terroism. People in my shop were on the ground, in country and not on a boat. Usually with HEAVILY armed small groups.

Hint.


At this point - I think I'm done. Not inclined to discuss things with people who've never stood a watch or badged into a SCIF.

Good luck getting out of the hole of ignorance you've dug.

Just because you don't read about it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Chief Hamlin, I’m I worked with your shop in Groton while doing special equipment installs and system certifications of deploying attack submarines 84-87. The OMs there were hard working guys and always went above and beyond to put in the many extra hours to get boats to sea ready to go and on time. Never heard of a boat that your guys did that had an optical failure of any type. Exceptional work. I worked at SSEP in Bldg 448 up on the hill. Funny that you mentioned Parche, she was the last boat I served on. Who was your division officer that served aboard her?

Oldhat you certainly have strong opinions which you are definitely entitled to. My question to you stands, You ever serve on active duty in theater? Any type of active duty?

“At this point - I think I'm done. Not inclined to discuss things with people who've never stood a watch or badged into a SCIF.”

Well said Teal. What branch CT were you?

Which two campfire posters are those?

Who is America govt hunting now besides its greatest adversary, their own law abiding patriotic citizens? ( according to our own intel agencies Biden and military leadership) It sure ain’t our biggest threat China

I badged into a SCIF many years . It sure doesn’t make you special anymore. They hand out TS sci clearances now like Halloween candy . It’s a joke. Thank Clinton and especially Obama for the greatly lowered standards

Why would I?

My answers are correct.

I branch

I had quite a few shipmates that were over 18 months in and had no clearance - was still being processed and investigated.

Had one shipmate lose it within a year at duty station. Dropped it damn fast for a hot piss test.

I don't know about today but then, it was what it was. Lots of people in A school sitting around waiting to find out if they could move on.

I for one know I could get cleared in any environment. Clean living.

And I only brought up the scif because the actual events of this collision- likely only discussed there.

Same with other events "during peace time".

It sounds more and more likely that the Connecticut simply struck the sea floor like the San Francisco before her.

But to address this question, not really of any likely relevance to the Connecticut.

The most modern of diesel electrics and AIP submarines are damned stealthy, and are a real threat to our SSNs in littoral waters.

China does have a couple dozen non-nuclear attack boats. But I do not know how modern nor how silent those classes might be.

North Korea also fields such boats along with many European and other Asian nations.

PM sent, glad to here we were well thought of, we tried hard. We didn't venture up to main base much, we swapped scopes up there on the hill, maybe it was mid-late 90s, Cleaver and I did some work over on Nautilus Museum, we mostly hung out and made our money on the old waterfront and 157...

I can still recognize that port - that hill behind on the LH side of the pic shows the spot where (IIRC) a US bomber was shot down and crashed into that hill... I was in Yokosuka's base several times during my stints on USS Redfish and USS Razorback..

I bet they know full well what they hit but nobody's sayin'...

Which makes me think it wasn’t an uncharted sea mount ...
After talking to a friend I’d bet my paycheck it was a Chinese Sub...

Over the past five months at the gym I attend, I've become acquainted with a man who was a submariner for four years. We sit side-by-side at bicycles, pedaling away and talking. He's told me of some of his experiences while serving aboard the USS WHALE (Wave) , fast attack boat, and the USS Pulaski, a missile boat. Today I asked him what he thought might have happened?

He said he did not really know, but with the state of sonar technology on today's subs, he did not think they ran into some uncharted undersea mountain. He said they might have been playing "tag" with another country's sub and someone made a big mistake. "Just guessing," he said. He also told me that when he was on the USS WHALE (Wave), they played some serious "tag" with a Russian sub off the coast of Gibraltar for about five days, once. Said that was some serious "fun."

FWIW.

L.W.

That bet I’m willing to make is a very well informed bet... no other details other than it was a Chinese sub.

Did anyone see the news about the guy busted trying to sell top secret info to a foreign power today? About our subs.

Old Hat GFY you POS mutherfucger cockroach the only real thing you know about being unimpressed is when you look at your dik in your own hand

Google The USS Wave.

Dillon Buck, many thanks for that note of my mistake. I somehow got "wave" mixed up with "whale." I corrected it plus some spelling mistakes. . Sometimes I think I'm getting old in my old age. I'll try to be more alert next time I quote someone else.

L.W.

yes

+1

Yeah. It's funny that they aren't mentioning what country it supposedly was. My vote would be that he thought that he was selling info to our "friends" who begin with "I".