Now they are trying to get illegal immigrants into the unions, and are supporting amnesty for the illegals.
Segment on Fox tonight about Smithfield Meats in Tar Heel NC, with the union supporting the Mexicans.

Unions had a place in history. Now they are dinosaurs.

I have no problem with private sector unions. Sometimes individuals need to band together to protect their rights. Public employee unions are the work of the devil and should be banned on pain of death.

What a coincidence!

American citizens are also down to about 12% of the workforce!

Very nice knock-out punch!!

With government being the largest employer in the US it makes sense for the unions to go where the money is. The politicians allowed the unions into the federal governement thinking the politicians would have a built in constuentcy.
And they do!
Jim

At least the illegals work for their money. Govt. workers.....hah hah hardy hah hah hah!!!!

there is still a placw for unions. the employer is allowed to run rampent over the worker , witness walmart, there are good non-union employers, these are the ones that fell neutral about unionism as they will do the right thing.
as a union worker in heavy industry the pay , safety , pension, health care and 32.50 an hour make me vote union. I am only a millwright in a work force of 1200 people made the company 160,000,000 last year, personnelly made 72,000 with little volunteer over time, never forced to work anything other than 8-430. We must work together to share the wealth.

Unions, bah-bye!

Fur
Realizing you are from that great nation to our north I am respectfully pointing out..
The steel industry no longer exists in the US because of unions then the tree huggers.
The US automotive industry is slowly dying because of the unions. This is following the example set by the British auto industry.
Very near and dear to my heart Colt, Winchester, S&W and Remington are no longer competive because of unions.
The cost of unions have done more for exporting jobs then any other one factor.
The clothing and foot wear industry moved off shore because of the unions.
Unions served their purpose but that purpose expired 50 years ago.
Jim

I think that Walmart supplying a paycheck to the vast percentage of their Workforce,is very much akin to Charity.

They are overpaid..................

I belonged to a union that did not enable lazy people to be a part of the workforce, and that's the only way I'd have it. I'm embarassed by stories of slackers using their union as something I think they should never have evolved into. I wouldn't have worked where some s.o.b. could come along and tell my boss he'd do my job for 5 cents an hour less; and get it....blah blah blah, on and on.
There's two sides to this union/non-union story, and everybody's got an opinion on it, but it won't change anything. If you're content to sit on your dead azz and have your union keep your job for you, then you've reached the peak of your worth; and you'd better hope you never have to look for a new job, because when left to your own devices, you are going to fall flat on your face. Seen it happen. Lets see, this is where I get off...

Bulletbutt, I applaud your union in not enabling lazy people to stay employed.

If all did that, I believe the unions would probably be stronger than they are now.

I'm personally 'Out of the Game', having been retired since 1995.

My opinion is that the unions, in my work lifetime, went from representing and protecting workers to exploiting them.

The people paid and the Union leadership played.

When will they be investigated and charged like the crooked business leaders have been?

that's got to be about the stupidest reply i have read here on this forum. the unions haven't done a thing for you. when they start laying off people at your job because it is no longer competitive, you might realize this.

Damn right!,... ya need one 'nem non union fi' dollah an thutty fi' cent an hour jobs that'll provide ya with some security!

ArkyPete +++1

How Many BILLION did Ford lose last year???

How many Thousands of dollars does the cost of a Detroit made auto have HUNG on it to pay for the excesses of the Union's?

A: a lot more than a Toyota

Traded in my F-150 for a Tacoma...

Unionism is on par with Communism....an ideology that has proven itself dead...... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

My value as an Employee,is all the security required...................

Funny,.... I recently heard a Mexican say the same thing when asked how he would survive in America.

He lives in 3 rooms with 17 other people, eats a lot of beans, and considers it the "good life".

"Traded in my F-150 for a Tacoma..."

djmbow says:

Damn man..............you sure know how to hurt a guy!

My value as an employee is to try and make my company some money

Then they will keep me around, and pay me.

If they don't want me around I'll get another job

I won't drive my company into the dirt, so I can get several memberships to multiple country clubs

I won't force my company to go overseas to hire somebody who wants to work so he can eat.

Let's see; My new Tacoma is 75% US made, and parts. My '06 F-250 has parts made in Canada and Mexico. My '03 Silverado had parts made in Mexico, and an Isuzu diesel...I'm confused...

Undoubtedly,there are droves who impress more easily than I.

They are welcome to those "conquests"..................

I've driven Fords sine 1984.

The last F-150 I bought "demo" new $32,000, I paid $27,000

Good truck

Bought a new TN made Tacoma for $22,000

When I'm done drivin it for about 300,000 miles, I'll sell it and by another

I remember the Ford Pinto, Chevrolet Chevette.....Need I say more?

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_researche0bd

The INS estimate of the resident illegal alien population of Alaska in January 2000 was 5,000, which was a 1,300 (35%) person increase over its estimate of 3,700 illegal aliens in October 1996.

An Alaskan who resides on an island related to us in late May, 1997 the problem caused in the community of about 10,000 when a pulp mill closed and many people lost their jobs. The difficulty in finding alternative employment was aggravated by a recent surge of people who spoke little or no English [presumably legal or illegal immigrants] who were willing to work for the minimum wage in jobs that had previously been paying higher salaries. The writer said that these newcomers could undercut the local residents because they lived several families in the same housing compared to the native population which had single family dwellings and mortgage payments to meet.

Get ready, Stick.

is it simple happenstance that the glory days, economically and politically, of the United States coincided with the heyday of the unions???

union, unite, united, United States...
America is a union...

?????

All I can say is "Wow, talk about uninformed!"

Let's just address the theory in general. Workers in any place of employment have the right to vote the union out, just like they voted it in, in the first place. No union has ever prospered by putting employers out of business.

Textile, footwear, and other manufacturing jobs are moving overseas because nobody in America is willing to work for two pounds of rice a day, union or not.

The American auto industry is in trouble and has been since at least the late seventies because of decisions made by management. The decision makers in Detroit, just like those at the Winchester manufacturing plant refused to invest in QC. The American consumer quickly discovered he could buy a better built, longer lasting, more fuel efficient vehicle than Detroit was willing to supply. And he did not really care if it was built in Japan or not.

If Detroit had paid 1/2 as much attention to Dr. W. E. Deming as the Japanese did, the American auto industry would be thriving today. All they really needed was to remember this one quote:



"Create constancy of purpose for continual improvement of products and service to society, allocating resources to provide for long range needs rather than only short term profitability, with a plan to become competitive, to stay in business, and to provide jobs."

W Edwards Deming


Yes, the members of the UAW were obscenely overpaid at one time. But did you ever ask yourself how that came to be. The union demanded a portion of the obscene profits which were being taken by Detroit in those boom years. Perhaps if management had not been fleecing the consumer so badly, the union would not have had such an appetite for their share.

Detroit created the conditions which led to her near demise in the eighties. GM, Ford, and Chrysler were setting the prices of their products and allowing the crappy workmanship as well as inferior products to reach the consumer. Remember the Citation, the Fairmont, the Aires, need I go on? These abominations were not created by the union leadership.

To say that all which is wrong in American industry today is the fault of the union is ridiculous. Money grubbing, greedy, bastids come from all levels of management as well as the union leadership.

Have bought more than one Happy Meal,by simply pointing to a picture on the menu.

I was born ready and am prepared to point again,be it Micky D's or the ChingChangChong Dynasty's menus.

Pays to be flexible....................

i think you are confusing the demise of industrial america to unionism when bad/ greedy business practices are the blame. In the union enviroment I can easly be fired for poor performance, poor attendence , atitude, what ever but will not be fired for what i am. the rules are all in place the employer has to exercise them in accordance to the law and the contract if they fail to do that don't look at me. Oh I forgot to mention the 6.5 paid weeks of holiday each year and they still make a piss pot full of money.

Look at the union success stroy Harley davidson is!!!

Why would anyone defend the workers at Wal-Mart? They have no skills, thus they do not command a real wage. Best thing a person can do is learn something of value to someone else, not wait for the politicians to force their employers to wipe their ass for them.

I work on Union plans for a living, and there are so many illegals in the Carpenter's & Millwrights, and Laborers union that we have to have interpreters in our office to handle the calls.

The building trades unions are so stupid about immigration. A wetback goes and buys a tool belt and a cooler and is suddenly a carpenter, and he lowballs the union workers. Meanwhile, the unions keep supporting politicians that are pro immigration. Rather than fight immigration to keep wages up, the unions try and lure in the illegals to build up their membership levels.

Part of the reason jobs are going offshore is because fewer middle of the road folks make a decent wage so they can't afford well made but costlier goods. So they shop at WalMart or whereever and buy crap from China. We reached a tipping point a while back.

There was also a lot of hubris to go around. During WWII we bombed the hell out of the industurial infrastructure of a lot of nations. Much of what was built in it's place was built or sold by our manufacturing companies. They got fat and had no competition.

All of the sudden the boom is over and there is competition from abroad where they employed the state of the art equipment we sold them. Nevermind that our steel mills and other places were still using turn of the century technology that couldn't compete efficiency wise.

Blame the unions for the loss of the steel mills if you like but it was the investors that failed to upgrade that shot themselves in the foot.

The big three made mediocre at best vehicles for a long time and even Lee Iococca couldn't turn them around far enough or soon enough to save them. The foreign competition has made too many inroads into the market to hope for a turnaround.

It's not just wages for union members that are crippling our large employers. It's a lack of vision, creativity, and willingness to adapt to the market.

Employers moving jobs overseas on account of the unfair trade agreements that exist is what's killing America, not the unions. The "free trade" agreement is a joke. As is NAFTA. Bush and other politicians like him are concerned about one thing only, how they can get richer while the working man picks up the tab. Why are Jap cars and others cheap in America, while US cars are expensive elsewhere? Kill off all the unions, and literally millions of other union-dependent companies will die with them, union or not. Most union members are hard-working, blue collar people. None that I know are even close to being rich, unless they are upper management. Did the unions screw up? Yeah, in a lot of ways. Are they perfect? Not even close. All lot of the chit is beyond their control though, at least beyond the control of the typical worker ant. What I see here is a bunch of people taliking about a subject they know nothing about. Don't see many union cities in the avatars. How many have been in a union here? Would love to know............2MG

I for one have only had to deal with unions, never been a member.

If you notice a distaste I may harbour for Unions, It is just jealousy, I have to pay my own green fees <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Also been picketted by United Brotherhood of Electrical Workers................
We were changing out our own flourescent tubes in our store in Indiana................
Evil, Money Grubbing, Bastids, didn't want to hire Electricians to chang our F#4%ing bulbs!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

The union thing worked well for Winchester.

Mike

It had nothing to do with working well, the new owners just weren't gettin' rich fast enough. Winchester will be back, made overseas, or non-union. Will that make you happier to know that your $ will help the rich get richer, or that your money will help another country get another 'leg up" on Americans? The whole fiasco was to break the union, to make the rich get richer. Just like all the rest..........

We all have the right to assembly and free speech. Those are right up there with the right to bear arms. You also had the right to ignore the picket line and carry on business as usual.

Surely you stood up for your rights and did not cave in to the picketers. After all it is a matter of principle.



Perhaps you have not seen some of the horrid examples of workmanship to come from the Winchester plant the last two or three years it was in operation. I have seen some and the matter had been discussed on these forums at great length long before announcement of the closure was made. Do a search on Winchester and quality from one to three years back, see what folks have said.

I had a friend working at Sportsman's a few years back. He showed me a collection of model 70's which had been set aside to go back to the factory. I saw four rifles which had come in that week and which should have never left the factory. All four had inletting problems. A couple were standard weight rifles set up in magnum inletted stocks. The other two also had the barrel channel cut over size but the barrel was laying against one side of the inletting and had a gap of over 1/8 inch on the other side.

This type of issue comes about from improper training of personnel, a failure to give people ownership of their jobs, and damned sloppy QC.

The man fitting the stock to the rifle should have known how the stock should fit and he should have had the power to stop the line until the proper stocks were gotten to him. And the person packing the rifle into the shipping box should have been checking it for such obvious flaws.

These are management issues. It is not fair to blame the workforce of a company when that company produces a shoddy product which drives customers away in droves. Any workforce will produce the quality which is demanded of them.

If they had employees who were unable to do the work which would produce a quality product, it is the supervisor's responsibility to resolve that situation, whether it be through termination, reassignment, or training.

I have certainly never seen a union which could have prevented the discharge or reassignment of an employee who was simply incompetent or unwilling to do the job assigned to him. Granted, the contract might require a bit of documentation of the employees faults before discharge. But that should be no problem for any but the laziest or most inept of supervisors. A CYA notebook goes a long way in such circumstances.

By saying the "rich get richer", I assume you are talking about the business owners? As a business owner myself I can assure you that I do this for one reason, and one reason only, to make money. I damn sure don't do it for practice! The day anyone tells me how I will run my business, what I will pay my employees and how much money I can make is the day I will close my doors!

I pay my employees fair wages and have a way better than average benefits package. If at any time they feel they are being under-paid or not treated fairly, they are welcome to leave through the same door they walked in through. If they think it can be done better, then they can take the risks that I have and try it themselves, this is America!

Over the years my guys have been solicited by the electrical, steamfitters, millwrights and ironworkers unions. They all know they have the right to listen, and they also know what the outcome will be if they elect to go union.

The unions had a place in this country at one time, but that time has long since passed. It cracks me up when I hear things like "poor management" and "lack of proper training" roll off the tounges of these guys. Ever hear of "pride in workmanship"? If I am paying you a premium wage and have not trained you, then shame on me. If you are earning a premium wage and have become an overpaid prima-donna, worried more about your next fifteen minute break than the quality of workmanship you produce, then I would suggest you learn where the local unemployment office is located.

Mike

http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/econ101/americanDream.html

Smith and Wesson is non-union.

Ironic how the anti union vote comes from folk who for the most part have good non-union jobs and have never worked in a Walmart type position.

Unions need to focus on productivity and profits, not only for themselves, but for the owners and shareholders. Without profit, the company they work for simply folds.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

+1

Right on!!!
I never looked outside of myself for security. It's the guy I see in the mirror every morning that provided, and provides, all of my security. And, that same guy provides all of my joy and happiness too. Maybe that's why my blood pressure is 120/70, all day, every day.
What Stick's talking about is being responsible, for everything in his life.

Don

Regarding the Walmarting of America: I like the Maryland initiative that would pro-rate part timer's benefits. Part timers get hosed when benefits "turn on" at 32.01 hours per week. Guess what, they never see more than 31.99 hours per week. Management's complaint that it would be impossible to manage is pretty weak now that everything is computerized. The computer can multiply by 31.99/40.00 as easily as by 1.0

Regarding government unions. I fully support fire fighters and police officers being able to retire after 20 years. It grinds me to no end that the office weenies get the same benefits. They are not on the firing line eating smoke and getting shot at.

-Joe

I used to be a service tech. Every week I was in a different factory.
Of the union shops I was in there was one that the workers were high quality. In all of the other shops the workers were more interested in learning how to disable machinery in case of a strike.
It seems to me unions are more about NOT working than working.
If I was union I would be pissed every time I gave the union money and looked at all of the fat at the top sucking money from the laborers

2MG
There is no sense in trying to change the opinion of some of the "smart people" here at the Fire. We've been down this union / nonunion street before. If all companies were like Bowhuntr's there would be no need for unions but since it obvious that all are not! The need for unions are still here. Are unions without their problems, no are they the best thing going, no. They are however the only thing keeping working America from working for Walfart wages. If it wasn't for the unions Bowhuntr and other good paying companies would have nothing to compare there wages to. They would not be afraid of say, "The Union" coming in and stealing there best employees and "telling me how to run my company" which if some of these people knew anything about unions would know that most of the contractors have more to tell us than we have to tell them. Nonunion may not like it but the union keeps there wages in check. Without the unions everyone would be working for 10/hr. PROUD MEMBER OF LOCAL 520 PLUMBERS AND PIPEFITTERS SINCE 1989.

I have sort of a unique perspective on this subject because I have been BOTH a union represented employee
AND a mangement employee for a major US corporation.

Here is my view, for what it's worth.

Unions are only as good as the people they represent.

If the employees choose to abuse the rights that their unions have negotiated for them both the union and the company will fail.

In situations where the union represented employees chose to give a full day's work for a full day's pay, the company usually did very well.

On the other hand, in situations where the union represented employees chose to abuse the payroll system, create work slowdowns, go on strike etc., in an effort to gain an unfair advantage over management, eventually both the union and the company failed.

Too often the latter was the case and I personally witnessed many excellent manufacturing operations either closed down or moved off shore due to nothing more than the insatiable greed of the union represented employee.

I could provide numerous FIRST HAND examples of where, as a member of management I provided both employees and union officials with "inside information" that if they did not curtail their incessant demand for higher wages, without providing a corresponding increase in productivity, their jobs were doomed.

In many cases, these individuals chose to "eat their babies" and allow many good paying jobs to go elsewhere or be eliminated all together.

The union vs management debate going on here may rage on (and it probably will), but nothing will be resolved until both factions realize that the arguement is not about the organizations involved, but rather it's about the PEOPLE involved.

From a management perspective, I don't blame the union for the demise of the myriad of US businesses that have been lost to foreign competition, I place the blame squarely on the shoulders of the greedy, self interested and often lazy American worker.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it............

If you don't know the history of how things came to be you should refrain from making uninformed comments.

#1 Toyota employees pay is comprable to that of an employee working for the big three. In reality, Toyoya employees make more due to bonuses.
Legacy cost which Toyota isn't involved with due to them being a young company in the U.S. is where the issues lie.


#2 From my point of view, I've seen my wages almost double in the past 20 years. The increase hasn't come from union demands. Read that again, the increase hasn't come from union demands.

The company I work for has been downsizing since the day I started my employment with them. When it came time to negotiate a new contract management approached the union with sizeable pay increases (within the national average) with the idea management would downsize the workforce. We accepted the pay raise knowing jobs were going to be cut. The union hasn't forced the pay rate up, management was leading us with a carrot to accept their business plan

AJ, your Toyota was made by union labor. I have installed machinery in the NUMI plant in Fremont, Ca. We(read union constuction)worked our azzes off (up to 16 hour days).I am proud to be a 30 year union member. I see a change comeing in our work force. The general contractor on the site where I am running a crew now calls Labor Ready for his help. Contractor pays Labor Ready and they take a cut off the top. Is this the new union? No training, no say in what they earn and you can imagine the skills these guys have.
The safety manager/ superintendant ordered clothing for Macys then took a thirty day coarse to get the job(owner's college buddy). There are great union and non-union laborers and employers out there. I am sure glad we have a choice in this county.
Allan

Worked in two union shops and know quite a few union members. They seem to be saddled with a mentality that they are being screwed and will do anything to sabotage the company and do as little as possible. I couldn't make any money there. I work piece work and work as hard as I feel like. I make twice as much as the union guys and work less hours. I can write my own paycheck by working accordingly. While my union counterparts in other shops whine I go make money. Last week I worked 34hours in 4 days, took yesterday off, I haven't worked a night, weekend or holiday in 10 years. I got payed for 86 billable hours last week and so did the employer. I earned every one of them. I'm very valuable to my employer, if I have a problem I go direct to the owner and we settle it right now. Will never work union again, they hold you back and and set production levels to the lowest common denominator (employee)in the shop.

Not directed at anyone in particular, just my two cents on unions.
Do your job, do it right, and you will not need a bunch of lazy socialists profiting from your labor.

,.... and do it for less than the illegals from Mexico are asking,.. and they'll go back to where they came from!

There's the answer to the illegal immigration situation!

I oughtta run for office.

I'm more enthralled with a $20 bounty,open Season and no bag limits....................

ultiately the company-union relationship is a parasitic one, the succesful parasite does not kill the hoast. that said, successful companies work with unions for the common goal of sustained profitablity for all involved. public companies are at the whim of shareholders who want unrealistic return on investment, this stifles growth and inovation in industrial plants, when that growth slow the shareholder will take thier money elsewhere, this is a transeant parasite. this form of parasite wants suck the life blood from companies then move on to do it all again. Bushrat has some valid points which work only if you have a good employer, trouble is there are many bad employers out there. In my industry there are jobs that take a long period of time to master the employer wants to keep these workers at these jobs because production stays up. My work place employs union and non union contractors especially during maintenance shut downs. They work at the same pace we do but take more risk by ignoring safety procedures , and doing slip shod work , next year they come back under a differant company name. I have 20yrs invested with my employer and i don' want to see them/me fail. ya we have lazy people but they are few and far between, we have a contract that basically you will do your job or be dismissed and this has happened. Union can not protect in these cases, company must have all the correct documentation however

Were I starting a new Business venture,the last thing I'd want to add to the equation,is Union Labor.....................

Yet you want a $20 bounty on those who would provide cheap imported labor for your venture?

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I've worked both sides of the union fence and can say I've made some fine money both ways...

A man makes his own luck, right?

Preparation + Opportunity = Luck

Would bushel the initial investment capital at 20 clams a pop and surround myself with good people,by paying a very good wage.

Should get a tax break,for diminishing the burden of the Government.

Win/win.................

I get a kick out the people that blame the unions when a company is in distress or goes belly up."It's the UNIONS fault".Management is never to blame they are always the good guys.There are two sides to every coin.

My employer has about 7000 people in their workforce,over 3200 at my workplace alone..It strains the mind to see what goes on at times from management and from the people on the floor.So before you cast the first stone it would be smart to have looked at both sides.

Always prepared to take a new direction....

Never turned down an opportunity......

Stick hits the point.

If you do not like the working environment you are under you have choices. Employment, laziness, stupidity and much more in life are all choices. If you need to work at Wall Mart because that is all you are qualified for, then you must have made some poor decisions along the way. Why pay an extortionist to protect you from an employer, can't hide under mommies skirt for ever.

We sent a study group to NUMI back in the mid 90's to learn how they operated and get ideas on how to craft a labor agreement for a new engine plant GM was considering to build. Problem I saw was that management wanted to pick and choose what areas of Toyota's philosophy to utilize. Doesn't work that way. You have to buy into the whole ball of wax or forget it. Thats why Toyota's been so sucessful.

GM builds [bleep],Toyota don't.

That is the reason.....................

Thats where you differ from the normal management mentality. Your willing to offer a good wage. Others prefer to pay five clams and pocket the fruits of others labor.

Ford was thinking about paying certain management employees a bonus for last year...................... when they lost how much money????
Whats wrong with this picture.

Don't blame the union. We don't have a say in design issues.

I blame it([bleep] goods) solely on the Manufacturer,end of story.

It is very easy,to treat Employees fairly and they typically appreciate the sentiment and reciprocate in turn.

Much correlation to nutlickers,doing a nutlicking job and [bleep] goods then going out the front door.............

You post started off well and seemed unbiased but rapidly took a turn against the worker.
Please speak a little to us about coporate greed and the ones that in essence run our great land.Two sides to every coin,right? An example would be the recent departure of Home Depots' CEO.$450 million dollars for six years work about half of which was in his severence package or the 10 BILLION $$$ that Wall street gave out in years end bonuses.NO UNIONS here my friend just good old fashioned greed. JMHO 284LUVR

Those numbers sound grandiose,but the percentages are very modest,because them is very big pies.................

Some actual facts:

Fact: There is no difference, on average, between compensation in unionized companies and union-free companies of the same size in the same industries.

Fact: The union bosses must create bad feeling and emnity between workers and management, so they can "stick up" for the workers. Otherwise, the workers would come to feel that the union had no purpose.

Fact: A unionized company cannot survive in competition with union-free companies. The union creates more costs (but not more compensation for the employees). The only time unionized companies prospered was when the whole industry had the same union, such as the UAW and the Big 3 thirty years ago.

Fact: It is almost impossible to find a growing and successful unionized company.

Fact: Workers in most states are coerced into joining unions.
They are not allowed to quit the union. The contract between the union and the company (workers, oppressed by the union, are not a party to the contract) states that the company will extract the union's dues without asking permission, and forward them to the union.

The whole union system is rotten, anti-democratic, and anti-American. We need a national Right-to-Work law so that employees can decide for themselves whether or not to be "represented" by a union. The reason the unions oppose such an obvious freedom is that the result would be a lot less than 12% of the work force in unions, and the union boss fat cats would have to get by on less income.

Hell, there are probably a lot fewer VOLUNTARY union members than there are voluntary NRA members.

The above applies only to the private sector. Unions there will soon be extinct. A real threat to America is the public sector unions, where lazy featherbedders retire at 80% pay after 20 years, thumbing their nose at taxpayers who actually work for a living.

Jesus Christ.

You people don't even know the difference between a shop union and a hiring hall do you? Might want to do a quick 15 minute background read and look into it.

I worked management/design with one of the biggest unions in the nation, the UAW, before I went racing. A couple of times we had disagreements. We worked through them. I'd work with them again in a minute. Good people and they did a good job. Same with the Operating Engineers, Teamsters, and laborer union when I was in construction. Very qualified and very good.

Will

I've got nothing aganst anti-union people, flat out their just hurting themselves. Biggest problem with Unions today is that too many have retired without training replacements. Those nearing retirement aren't going to jeperdize such retirement with contract negotiations (there in the Yes Sir, and No Sir phase). And those new to their selected professions are just flat scarred to death to stand-up.

Go hire your self a non-union crane operator, and just maybe they won't kill anyone.

Phil

I work construction.
Imagine being 50 years old and still playing with Tinker Toys, it's great.

However.....

The general concensus in our country is that those who work with their hands are unskilled. With that logic the unskilled are hired to do the work. The quality of building and other trades in the US is rapidly falling to third world quality.

We are on a slippery slope... those with the anal retentive soul, able to achieve quality above and beyond the norm, are moving on to other areas where they can achieve their own personal success. In one more generation we will truly see the fruits of this.

Quality is Job One is no longer........it is now Juans job....

****
My beef with certain unions is the recruitment of illegals....

United we stand, divided we fall.
Local 1707 Carpenters SW Washington

Used to be in this country that we were proud of the fact that we had the highest standard of living in the world. Now a sizable portion are proudest of the millions we can bring into the country to undercut wages, the billions paid for CEO compensation, and how fast we can run up short term profits by outsourcing.

Hell, a damned fine portion of the complaints on this thread are for practices that have been illegal for heaven knows how long. Another big portion is complaining about one type of union structure when it doesn't exist in the context given. A few of us need to listen a little less to Rush Limbaugh and do a little more background reading.

Peace and out,
Will

I wuz wondering when you'd chime in <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



Management has a way of creating dissention among the troops. For some reason they like to ignor agreements they signed if they feel it's benificial to their agenda. Arogance isn't reserved only for the union.



No one removed their freedom of choice. If you don't want to work in a union envirment don't apply for a job with a company where the workers are represented by unions. If the employees vote for union representation and you disagree you have the choice of seeking employment elsewhere. Simple solution.

Even that is giving more than the argument requires AJ300Mag.

In the environment I worked in business agents for the Teamsters and IUOE were both required to put qualified people on their lists and call them in order even if they weren't union members. If hired these guys got all of the union benefits as cash on the paycheck and were required to pay standard union dues, without apprenticeship fees. This is within the context of a hiring hall for those of you unfamiliar with them.

In the case of the UAW, they worked under the concept of a shop union. Even though they did not fill appreciable portions of their ranks in any given year they were still required to work under the concept of a 'union shop' not a 'closed shop'.

These guys act like Taft-Hartley is a volunteer-only law. Act within the law when you feel like it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Will

I don't think unions are the be all and end all of the working world but it's also a fact that union mines, union shops, and other unionized outfits don't kill as many people on the job by taking shortcuts as their nonunion counterparts do.

At the time the IBEW was founded only 50% of linemen could count on dying on the job. You might think those odds are acceptable but I think they're a bit too much.

I've been working for a power company for over 20 years. In that time we lost one lineman due to a fatal electrical contact. We farmed out our line work to a nonunion company a few years back and have very few union lineman in a a few select positions. That nonunion company has already lost two people doing work for us in just those few years and darn neared killed a crew of tree trimmers last month just up the road from where I work. I heard the transformer explosion from a half mile away when a tired nonunion foreman called in the wrong switching and got a line hot that had a crew on it ready to cut trees out. It was pure luck that none of them was in contact and the transformer blew and warned them the line came hot.

Working fast is cool. Sometimes working fast will get you dead.

I've also seen productivity pressure on millwrights and the only thing that kept them safe was the union standing firm on safety rules.

You might not always need the strength of numbers. Sometimes being the only guy that can do the job works too but that's rare. I know a commercial diver that has all of his fingers, which is rare. I asked him how he managed that in a 20 year career. If a guy that was hiring him wanted him to do something in an unsafe way he'd just look the guy up and down and say, "Looks like my suit will fit you. If you really think it's that safe then you show me how. I'll be glad to loan you my rig." Nobody ever took him up on that one.

I am also a union Lineman, I could not have said it any better myself.

Indy said, "The above applies only to the private sector. Unions there will soon be extinct. A real threat to America is the public sector unions, where lazy featherbedders retire at 80% pay after 20 years, thumbing their nose at taxpayers who actually work for a living."

You are full of more crap than a Christmas goose. You damn well do not know of what you speak.
I retired after 33 years of federal service working for the Weather Bureau, later named the National Weather service. I would be damned happy to be getting 80 percent of what I was making at retirement. I get all of 45 percent and that's it. besides that, I get penalized on my social Security thanks to Ronnie Raygun. So don't give me all your BS about public sector unioun workers. Private sector unions have the right to strike. Public sector do not on pain of termination. Just ask the air traffic controllers during Ronnie Raygun's regime.
During my tenure for the WB, I worked health debilitating rotationg shifts. I had the responsibility of giving out timely warnings of severe weather so sorry asses like yourself wouldn't get killed. I also worked as the shop steward, without pay for that task for over 25 years trying to keep the dickhead management from screwing over my people.
If you don't like public sector people, maybe you should dig a bit deeper and find out why they are the way they are. If you were treated by your employer the way, for example, postal workers are treated by their foremen, you'd most likely eventually "go postal". I worked for the P.O. for two years. I quit because I would have done a couple of rectal orifaices some very serious knots about their heads and shoulder, and that would have been for starters.
Indy, you just don't know what you think you know.
Paul B.

Paul,

Did you contribute to Social Security during your time with NWS? Curious as the senior Federal Employees that I work with that are under the older retirement system will not SS or get it at some very small level yet they have never had to contribute to it so it seems fair to me.

I have worked for non-union industrail construction companys before. And won't ever again for a number of reasons.
I'm on jobs where there are at times an easy 300-500 workers from different trades. With the union I'm surrounded buy a large majority of men and women of all races that have completed apprenticship programs, passed mandatory and random drug tests and are #1 also trained in every aspect of saftey!!! Used to work heavy industrial site's that had serious on the job drug usage, non-skilled, non-trained could careless about saftey employees.
As a carpenter here in southwest Washington our crews are finely tuned machines. Nothing like being surrounded by competent people in safe environments. "Lazy" if your lazy your gone! There's a long list of people that would just love to take your place.
To many neighborhoods in this country filled with people working for [bleep] wages, with [bleep] homes, with [bleep] or no benefits, driving [bleep] cars, with [bleep] attitudes and no pride in themselves.
In my neck of the woods unions build pride and better familys! When your quality of life is better you have more pride and do better work! It's contagious!
Not to mention that most jobs I work are way to large for non-union, non-trained, non-safe companys.
If I'm not mistaken a pard of mine just bought a Nissan pick-up built right here in America buy union workers. His last truck of the same brand he sold was still going strong with over 290,000 miles. I beleive it was also built here in america.
Good luck to our grand children who will have to compete with millions of immigrants for [bleep] wage jobs! Sure hope the unions are still around for them.
It won't be long before all you non-union workers out there will be fighting for your jobs because our brothers south of the border will happily work for [bleep] wages. You might not see it but watch out the way things are going our children will.

The more I read this the more apparent it becomes of how uninformed many people are about unions in general. Fact is, most of would join one in a minute given the opportunity. For those who think the average skill level of non-union and or immigrant labor is on par with those of a journeyman union tradesman, that is laughable.............By the way, Toyota is building a new headquarters here, they will be using union labor............2MG

Taxes are driving corporations offshore as well.
I have no idea how the Japanese tax their corporations but lets look at American cars vs. those made in Germany.

The Ford has about 23% tax embedded in the cost of the car.
The German car HAD a Value Added Tax but the goverment of Germany refunds the VAT to the carmaker.
It's even worse if Ford tries to sell a car in Germany, where on the showroom floor it has both the VAT and the imbedded tax.

Interesting that you should bring that up. There was an interesting piece in the Wash Times yesterday on that very subject... I almost fell out of my chair in shock that they would admit what was going on.

http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20070125-091732-4936r.htm

Phyliis Schafly came out against our trade policy last month. There is some serious adjusting of attitudes regarding this matter by serious conservative opinion makers.

Will

some federal (GS) employees DO NOT contribute to Social Security. All President Reagan (God bless him) did was curtail the double dipping. I've had to deal with GS employees my whole career and the unionized ones are on the whole (there are always exceptions) prettyworthles and short of committing animal acts with minors, they are impossible to dismiss.

The joke in the Pentagon was that they were like "nuns" in the job for life. They do what they do when they want, and we as bosses have little or zero recourse to deal with them. Reagan (God Bless him) was spot on when he fired those no-loads. Glad to see unions are on the way out, but you'll never get them out of federal service, in fact it's only going to get worse. With the on going turnover of military jobs to civilians, we'll just continue to pay more and receive less. jorge

Here's some food for thought! Got a call the other day from a buddie in Northern Idaho. He's been logging all his life just like his dad and grandpa. His good friend who works for a different company just lost his job of 15 yrs because as a crew leader he couldn't speak spanish. He didn't forsee the fact that his employer was starting to profit more from a much lower payroll due to mexican workers! He didn't have the time to enroll in a spanish language class before being replaced by a lower payed disposible employee. It snowballs from there. Lower wages mean less pride. Less pride means more crime.
Bet that union bashing buddie of my friend sure was wishing he worked for a union logging outfit that would have payed for him to learn spanish!! He'd still have a job.

djmbow says:

Sorry my friend, but if you are going to quote someone in an effort to make a point, it's only fair that you do so without taking their remarks out of context.

This thread seemed to be heading toward a debate over the worthiness of unions and their overall impact on the decline that the US has been experiencing in it's ability to compete in the worldwide market.

Since many here had put the blame for this decline solely on the backs of the unions, I was merely trying to show that in many instances it is not the concept of unionization that is at fault, but it is the greed and laziness of the worker that is the culprit.

To that end, this is what I actually said:

From a management perspective, I don't blame the union for the demise of the myriad of US businesses that have been lost to foreign competition, I place the blame squarely on the shoulders of the greedy, self interested and often lazy American worker.

Now if you want to broaden this debate to include a discussion about the extent to which management (or the lack thereof) has also played a role in the decline of our country's ability to compete on a worldwide basis, you are certainly welcome to do so.

Just thought this one was about unions thas all...............

So, CD, You're saying that because I knew how to do my job the day I was hired means I never have to expend my own time/money/effort to learn to do it better over my career?

Union or Non-Union I suspect that anyone who with an ounce of ambition that wants to get ahead or stay in a career they enjoy takes it upon themselves to stay on top of their game regardless of who pays. If not it's only a matter of time until you're history and rightfully so.

Excellent article.

I've said before that America can only survive a so called "free trade" enviorment if everyone is required to play by the same rules. Even then it will be difficult for American manufacturing to overcome the disadvantages which are presented by the fact that our foreign competition pays slave wages for their labor.

Couple that with the foreign currency manipulation and it's no wonder that American manufacturing is declining at a breakneck pace.

Allowing China to impose their standard of living on the American working and middle class isn't in the best interest of the American people,.... and the current global trade policies of our government will produce exactly that result.

The even playing field....

manufacturing prospers overseas due to no pollution regulations. They are in their industrial revolution and are years away from having destroyed their environment enough to implement environmental controls.

An environmental impact tax on imports would level the playing field and put away enough to clean up the mess they are now making.

See, here we are, right back to Deming again.

Bad english notwithstanding (again), that myth has long been put to rest. Beleive me, I wanted to buy a Tundra, but when I compared it to my current Silverado, the Chevy was a much better deal. Going on 100K plus miles now and except for oil & tires, i haven't had to spend a dime on it. It even has the original brake pads. jorge

Any workforce can throw the union out, all it takes is a vote from the workers. No group is forced to work under union leadership. I fail to understand how anything can be more American than that. Isn't democracy based on majority rule?

Idaho is a "right to work" state. This simply means that each employee of a union shop has the right to opt out of union membership and dues collection. I am only familiar with one company in one industry. In our manufacturing facilities in Idaho, about three percent of the employees have opted out of union dues. They do still expect and receive union representation in grievance matters, as it is against Idaho law to discriminate against nonmembers. For this service, they pay less than ten dollars per month. And they get the same wage and benefits package as are negotiated by union reps.

This union is definitely part and party to the contract as all representatives in the union and negotiators are members of the workforce. The union reps do have a legal adviser which is supplied by the national union, but he has no say in negotiating procedures.

But then this company is far different than most in many other respects. For instance 90% of its management has been promoted up out of the labor force. Our labor contract rewards initiative and intelligence over seniority. The best and the brightest are the first promoted within the labor force and they are also the ones moved on to management positions.

djmbow says:

Tell me jorge, do you ever wonder where that ear piercing screech is coming from every time you have to put both feet on the brake pedal and push as hard as you can to get that Silverado to stop?


Just kiddin'-------------100K on original brake pads has got to be a new Guinness world record though, don't cha think?

I thought I was doing well having to replace mine at 70K <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

100K on a chevy! And you are impressed? A good rig is just getting broken in well at 100K! I know whereof I speak, as I have only purchased a couple of rigs in my life which had less than 100K on them at purchase.

I have owned many vehicles built by Ford, Dodge, GM, Toyota and Mazda. They have covered model years from 65 through 99. The 99 Blazer has been the most expensive vehicle I ever purchased and has had the highest maintenance costs of any rig. I purchased it in 03 at 65K. It has about 135K on it today and I have put over 7000 dollars into maintenance on the rig without touching the engine, transmission or the interior panels which are falling off of the chassis.

I surely wish I had made Momma wait until I found her a good 4-Runner. None of my American built vehicles have ever held a candle to the Toyota or the Mazda for durability or toughness.

That is exactly why the American consumer started buying autos of Japanese construction in the 70's and continues to do so in record numbers today. Even though many of those Japanese vehicles are built today in America, by American workers, they are still built to the standards demanded by the hierarchy of Japanese management.

The only thing my domestic vehicles have ever done better than an import is pull a 15000 lb trailer or haul a heavy load. I don't care whether it is a Dodge, Ford, or Chevy, Detroit can not be beat in this regard.

Let us know when that Chevy reaches twenty five years and 300K without the valve covers being lifted. Then I will be impressed.

"100K on a chevy! And you are impressed"?



NO! but as I said in my post, I am impressed with 100K on the original brake pads.

Unless it's all long distance, open country driving, that's damn impressive.

Them on the tit,rally for it. Them not on it,rally against same.

I'm squarely anti-tit and have never not been gainfully employed.

Never had my job outsourced,nor my position bumped,for any one of dozens of Outfits I booted up for.

Particularily enjoyed the notion that you gotta speak Spanish and work for peanuts,to eek anything out of the Woods.

The biggest slob pieces of [bleep] I've ever seen,were/are Union....................

Penquin,Yup some of these idiots don't have a clue.

I usually have a bit of trouble deciphering your posts,.... but are you saying that tit men are inherently lazy?

I wish some of you would listen to Bristoe cause it's seems to me that a lot of you have your zipper facing in the wrong direction.

Doubly so the tit men,who never had to really work for a living,prior to aquiring suction upon the tit.

Have said it often and it remains a constant,in that I've yet to see a union MAKE a good man,but I've seen 'em ruin more than a few.

Nothing more humorous,than to watch a Union workplace,as their members "work"...................

Sing along evahbuddy!

~~~Look forrrrrrrr,... the union labelllllll~~~

Conventional wisdom (Crosby) claims that 80% of quality issues can be laid at Management's door and 20% at Labor's. That ratio probably applies to many other key measurements.

Crosby's logic is that Management buys the tools and materials, specifies the process, hires and trains the workers (and supervisors).

You can quibble about the percentages, but I think Crosby was close to the mark.

All that being said, 20% of 360 defects per thousand vehicles is still 72 defects per thousand vehicles.

Nothing like getting paid for whatcha do,instead of that which you MIGHT do,to skew relative titty suction perceptors.

I always preferred to bushel,instead of dayhack....................

Your line of work has a way of weeding out the chaff. I know of a few mulerights (I mean millrights) that could/would give you a run for your money where bull work is concerned.

Any/all lines of work,can be configured to allow only excellence. Unions are counter to that train of thought/work ethic and scoop proceeds off the top to boot.

Have never fretted my abilities and I don't work cheap....................

hey indy,



this is still America... anyone can quit a union anytime they chose to do so...
it is true that some companies have exclusive contracts with unions which require union membership in good standing as a condition of employment...
even in states without a right to work law there are many employers who have signed no agreement with any union... feel free to work there if you please.....



there are 22 states which currently have right to work laws in place... these forbid an employer from enforcing any exclusive employment contract they might enter into with a union...

i'm a union tradesman, and i make a very comfortable living... almost 100% of my income is earned in "right to work" states...
"right to work" laws are no hurdle to me or my way of life.... bring them on.....
i am working in a "right to work" state right now, repairing shoddy work done by non union "quick buck" contractors.....

by all means, bring it on.....

The question was directed to Jorge.

Tis easy to get 100K on a set of brakes if you drive from fillup to fillup on the freeway with the cruise on.

Ain't you got some steelhead that needs to be caught????? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

All ya gotta do is endeavor to persevere,... and being as how mankind has repeatedly demonstrated throughout history that it is moral and fair,..you will always get your just rewards.

I used to believe alla that,.... but then Captain Kangaroo retired,... Ward Cleaver chit & died,.. and reality set in.

"Every chicken scratches toward itself".

Water is lower than I like,to get real excited about sluggish Winter fish.

'Tis a reloading/shooting day...........................

djmbow

Even though I am stauch supporter of my union (IAM) I have had a stomach full of those described above and is my firm belief that they should be "walked out" as we call it so that someone willing to give his/her employer a good days work and reap the benefits those before them have fought to attain.
What I am against is blanket condemnations of unions by many for the incompetence of management.
I could tell you of the many hard workers that I work with who only want to provide their families with the best they are able to give in return for an honest days work as well as the piece of CHITT that works next to me that should of been fired years ago.284.

All you gotta be,is not a POS.

A good guy can go work anywhere and for top bucks,because they is few and far between.

That simple mindset,has taken me to many places and I've met many faces and somewhat miss the swaggering Tramp Lifestyle......................

The Unions are a great thing. Just look at what they did for the Warehouseman, Line Drivers & Local Drivers for Consolidated Freightways, Transcon, Lee & Estes, and so many other Long Haul Companies.

All of them are Jugs Up and just watch how hard the Teamsters tried to find all those unemployed members new warehouse or driving jobs and just see how much of a vested interest those drivers have in the Union's Retirement Trust Funds. Not much help there, Yes Sir, they put their stock in the Union and what did they get?

The Shaft, that's what and they had to supply their own Vasoline, the Union sure as hell didn't.

Fair Tax, Fair Tax, Fair Tax!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've worked Heavy industrail construction since 1987. Been with non-union outfits before and glad I lived to talk about it. In our Carpenters Union, Lazy [bleep] don't last a week. Neither do "know it all" pieces of [bleep]. And all the culls are gone by the end of the job. Nothing but qualified craftsmen. And that goes for the other trades as well. If you can't pull your weight your down the road.
Rant and rave all you want. Unless you've worked both sides of the track you ain't got a clue. If it weren't for wal-mart what the [bleep] would all those non trained, non qualified piles of [bleep] be doing. Those pricks should be union. Wouldn't be so many uninsured pukes soaking the system for help.

Been there done it have worked booth sides of the street also and have had both Union and Non Union Jobs.

Tell me how can a union justify 40/50% salary increase when the COLA is 1.7 %. That's what a teachers union wanted a couple of years ago and struck for over on the Eastside of the sound.

Last time I worked with a laid off teamster was about 2 years ago. He was out of work for a week, went to the hall and was on a forklift making over $25 an hour the next day. Worked with the guy for some 14 months at a power plant (nothing lazy about him). Also if I'm not mistaken the teamsters are vested in 5 years, so if for some reason they do decide to make a change. If they took a withdrawl card they are still locked in to recieve something towards retirement. Now you can put your retirement funds in stocks and bonds, IRA's, and Company promises. But I'd much rather put mine with a union. Nothing's guarrenteed, I've got 11 years as a Teamster, and going on 9 as an Operating Engineer. That with whatever I might get from Social Security in another 8 years, and maybe I won't do too bad. But I'll tell you, I've got nothing to show for my non union years. Don't get me wrong, I don't let a union dictate to me. I don't agree with a lot of their politics. But my biggest gripe with the unions of today are their rank and file are mostly talk. I go by the contract at the time, and have no whims about standing up for my rights against a company that will agree and sign such contract, and then bitches about how it's dragging the company down. All the while there dumping all the company profits into company cars, condos, fancy offices, and bonuses into the millions.

Phil

[color:"red"] [/color] AMEN

Never been a Teacher. So I can't say. But in some school's in some towns in some neighborhoods I couldn't even imagine the disrespectful little foul mouthed kids they'd have to deal with.
Just my two cents but a qualified teacher isn't paid nearly enough. I have 3 kids very active in sports and at times I spend every night of the week at a school function. I have seen first hand what great teachers do for our communitys. They produce great productive young adults. You can't put a price on that.

All of my prior jobs were non union,didn't have a problem with that. If you did your job you stayed if you didn't adios. My present job " union shop" gets my weekly donation's and the only one's it seems to benefit until contract time are lazy and absent employees. But, rules do need to be set and a union does this, just as long as you don't have Monty Hall as a union president <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />.

Not all pay raises are about COLA. When my company merged..basically bought out...a gas company the pipefitters got a 28% wage increase. They were union to start with but it didn't seem to help their wages any.

I compared some of the acquired gas buildings to ours. I compared the salaries of their management to ours. Then I looked at what they paid their field people.

It was no wonder why a company like ours, which isn't run anything like the best it can be, was able to buy theirs. They spent most of their money on fancy buildings as monuments to their egos and paid their managers 20% more than the going rate while paying the field personnel pauper's wages.

You get what you pay for and the backbone of any industry is it's workers.

To use a Navy analogy: My dad was talking to a captain of a ship once. Somehow in that conversation this statement came up. "If this ship went to sea with an all enlisted crew it would come back dirty but it would get the job done. If it went to sea with an all officer crew it would never come back at all".

Without good field people to deliver the goods you can manage the best you can and have the fanciest building you can find but you'll go broke.

I would like to suggest another perspective to this topic. In the interest of brevity I will not fully support each point.

Unions evolved from labour guilds in Europe. These organizations came into being as a way to monopolize certain skilled labour pools in order to maximize the return for their efforts and to help ensure a uniformity of the quality of the labour thereby further enhancing the guilds value to both itself and to entities that utilized these labour pools.

These labour unions became more involved in worker rights with the onset of: the industrial revolution, due to draconian employment conditions and practices, and the birth, evolution, and growing popularity of socialist government philosophies.

The point here is that most trade unions start out well intended, their mission statement is to protect the membership from unfair, unjust, treatment.

The execution of that underlying purpose is being executed with varying degree's of effectiveness today. That is, there are examples out there of both good and bad unions.

With respect to the unprecedented economic growth and prosperity that the United States and Canada have enjoyed since the conclusion of World War II... This can in part be attributed to the hard working folks in these countries but I would suggest that a significant portion of this economic boon is attributable to being one of the only significant industrialized parts of the world not in ruins from the war.

North America boomed. The rest of the G7 scratched and clawed to rebuild their respective infrastructures and get back in the game.

Some companies (by companies I mean management, employees, or both) became arrogant, lazy, and spoiled by their success and lost sight of what was required to stay competitive.

Some became structurally redundant. A current example of this would be pulp and paper manufacturers in BC. Raw material cost, power cost, and labour costs are no longer, when compared as a ratio of gross revenue, in step with their global competitors. As profits fall they are unable to reinvest and provide an acceptable return for shareholders; CEO's satisfy shareholders and neglect investment knowing full well that this unsustainable. The competitiveness of these entities continues to erode and eventually most will cease to exist but because of the shear magnitude of the capital involved and the impact on communities it will be a slow and messy demise.

At the same time Chile's forest industry is burgeoning. They are building state of the art processing facilities that have a cost structure similar to the 50's in North America. They are in transition from a third world country to a primary manufacturing economy with the benefits of current technology.

This what is happening across North America today. Countries like China are developing a manufacturing sector to service consumer economies like North America's.

So the exporting of jobs is, to a significant extent, an economic structural shift rather than unions being bad or management being bad.

In conclusion the shrinking of the unionized labour sector is more due to structural economic changes to North America rather than the the direct fault of the management or the labour force.

Actually I was surprised myself, but the Chevy guys tell me that the brake pads tend to last a long time. I commute home on the weekends so I have a lot of road miles on it, but in day to day deiving, they'll last over 80K. As far as longevity, the other chevy I had was a little S-10 Blazer and I traded that in with 215K with no problems other than routine, but in fairness to the japs, the longest lasting truck I've seen was my friends little Toyota that he sold with close to 300K. The Tundra doesn't come close to the Chevy in performance but even if it was better, i just can't get past Dec 7, the Bataan death March and the fact those bastards have never even apologized for WWII and if you ever go over there, they hate us. I think unions are a pox, but I'll continue to buy American. jorge

I lived in Japan for three years as a kid and went back a couple of times in the Navy. I never had anything but positive interactions with the Japanese including one of their WWII Navy vets.

I think they treated the war criminals in the Pacific far too leniently but the people now are not those same folks and for the most part they seem to like us for the most part.

Steely Eyes; I guess we are digressing, but my experience was more or less like yours, and while I generalized the overall feelings of the Japanese people, the resentment is there. The fact remains than in their school books today, they accept no blame for their actions. jorge

Amazing how an A-Bomb boosts spirits...................

That is a little sobering when a society produces school books and histories that either out right lie about their country's actions and/or "revise" them.

Catholics have ravaged/savaged more folks than the Japs and you'll not find that in the kid's homework...................

well, that is true, Stick- sheesh, way to sink my arguement.
grins

There is very little true history in most history text books. It's all Walt Disney-ized.

I think that is probably true, I would guess that there are "revisionists" in every age and culture.

It's a very common practice,... and nowhere is it more common that right here in the good old USA.

Apparently you've not seen many, or at least not the ones I've seen. I routinely work with union carpenters, millwrights, electricians, boilermakers, iron workers, pipefitters, plumbers, operators, sheet metal workers, and more. The vast majority are hard workin' guys who take pride in their work and know how the [bleep] to do it right. The lazy ones just don't get much work, just like anywhere else. Half the chit we do can't be done by non-union workers cuz there aren't any out there with enough experience/training to do it. Say what you want, I KNOW, been doin' it for years.....The skill level of a journeyman union tradesman exceeds the others by far. It takes a 4 year apprenticeship program to become a journeyman, and upgrade classes are constantly being offered. Special types of various certifications are necessary for many of the jobs, if you ain't trained with a card to show it, you're not eligible. Right now we have to pass 18 separate training modules to go to work for the big three. Drug screening is also mandatory for many. I'm not talking about Joe shmo standin' on an assembly line pushin' a button, I'm talkin' about the guys who fabricate and build the assembly line, and tear apart and install conveyors, etc. Skilled labor by trained, certified tradesman...........Maybe some other types of unions are lazy, but the skilled trades aren't. If your lazy, or just not good, you don't work much, simple as that. These are the guys that end up non-union again, bitchin' about how unions are no good, or how they got screwed, when, in fact, they screwed themselves..........Rant over---2MG

Have seen them all and have yet to be impressed on any level......................

One more little fact. Since we've contracted our line work out to a non union outfit our power outages due to wind storms are longer. They might look like they work fast but they aren't very organized and the end result is more people without power for longer.

union tradesman are more knowledgable because they receive training..........

Where would GM be without UAW? LINK

"Few things are more obvious than that the role of the UAW in relation to General Motors has been that of a swarm of bloodsucking leeches, a swarm that will not stop until its prey exists no more."

More...

12000 People Paid Not To Work

Someone said something about workers on the tit?

Never been to a Doctor,that was a Union Medic.

Have been impressed with several and am thinking they musta received some training,as well.................

While doing some work at a poultry plant a few years back the maintenance manager of the plant was designing a pay for skills program for his departments technicians for the upcoming union contract. Seemed simple and very beneficial for the employees. The company would provide in
house and outside training and testing. Participation was voluntary and the time frame to complete the training modules was in my opinion very generous as was the raises earned for each module completed. The program was approved by the company and presented at negotiations where it was flatly rejected by the union because it seems that in their minds, some would be able to achieve and others would not. So, united we stand divided we fall, rings true and equates to, everyone should be equally poor and [bleep] over because a few drag down the rest. Socialism
at its best.

So in the end this manager is saddled with a cap on wages per the union contract and cannot keep highly skilled technicians because the company will not, and rightly so, pay higher wages to people who cannot do or learn the job. The union then gripes about the use of skilled contractors for projects instead of using bargaining unit employees. Why would the union want to hold someone back from bettering themselves at the companies expense and keep the company from attracting skilled people who would automatically be sucked into paying dues.
Not a win win situation, just maintaining mediocrity.

I have contracted both union and non union electricians, millwrights pipe fitters, and ironworker/fabricators and have yet to be happy with trade union work, most of all, their work
ethic plain sucks.

2mg
Like I said before its hard to fight a battle of witts with the unarmed "BIG STICK" Big Stick says he's seen them all. All I can say is that he must have had some pretty big blinders on.
LOCAL 520 PLUMBERS AND PIPEFITTERS SINCE 1989

Can't apologize,for having been in more than one place and having seen more than one face.

The Union ruse,is not new to me and only them on that tit...beat the drums of enthusiasm.

Eyes is open,though I've never impressed easily....................

Everytime unions are discussed it's almost like the UAW is the only one, or that's the one people are generalizing about. I've witnessed the skill level of the nitwits companies try to save money on by hiring. Hell, we go back and fix their work all the time.........Fact is, the unions ain't no different than the "real world" jobs, as some have put it. If you're good, you stick around and get work. If not, you're gone. Some are under the misconception that most union workers jobs are protected, and in most cases, especially those of the tradesman, it just ain't true.........

Being in more than one place and "seen them all" have a mite of a spread between them. In fact it's virtually impossible for one man to see all of just about anything that large. Just saying.


Everything has it's good and bad points.

A guy I grew up with worked in a union shop. They laminated metals together in ovens. When break time rolled up he'd work an extra three minutes or so to get the last parts in the oven and then take his 15 minutes. The other "brothers" complained because he made them look bad, nevermind that he wasn't working any more or less hours than they were but just using his time efficiently and producing more in a day.

Stuff like that is what makes unions look bad.

Then again another friend of mine is nonunion carpenter and he complains about crack heads and meth heads and all kinds of whacked out guys showing up at job sites and unless he raises holy hell the boss won't can them. The stories of on the job injuries, including a fatality with a circular saw, will curl what's left of your hair.

It also seems that only them that ain't on the tit do plenty of whining about them that are even though it's no skin off of their nose.....being all superior and hard working and patriotic and all.

Nathanial,

Not all unions or contracts are created equal. Our contract does specifically provide for training and testing, with pay increases for those passing said tests. Company pays for training materials and employee studies on his own time.

On another note, the company also demands all employees be able to complete job apps and paperwork in English. The first year this was activated it cost a lot of seasonal workers their jobs. Many of which had ten to twenty seasons of seniority with the company.

Don't ask me how a man can be employed in the USA for twenty years and never bother to learn basic English skills, but it is pretty prevalent. Of course a lot of these fine men of Mexican descent (many of which were very desirable employees for the drone type work which they did) could not have completed the apps in Spanish either. They had always been too busy earning their daily bread to get an education. Many had been in the fields from the time they were ten years old and felt very fortunate to get a high paying factory job. They had always gotten by with a friend or spouse taking care of all the paperwork.

My point is that this union recognizes the need for an educated, motivated, and skilled work force if the employer is to stay in business and continue to provide jobs. This is the manner in which all unions should function.

Have been exposed to many Unions,due to where/when I grew up and haven't closed my eyes since that time.

I worked a dangerous job once and have some familiarity there,as well...................

One of my fishing buddies was a logger name Jodie. He worked in the woods for 15 years at a couple of gypo outfits. Never had a driver's license. Born and bred in the USA and couldn't read a lick of English or write more than his name and a couple of other words.

He have been canned on that deal too.

Coulda fooled me. I've seen both unionized and non union certified journeman in my trade who are not capable of reconstructing an automobile safe enough that I would drive it let alone put someones kids in it. You can trade certify an idiot but you cannot make him a non idiot and the trades are full of them union or not.. the only difference is the union protects them. ...crist... half the teachers teaching them at trade schools are idiots

Have worked in more remote Logging Camps,than I could rightly recollect and would play hell naming all the Trawlers I've sorted tows or pulled pots upon.

Gotta say,I've never crossed paths with an illiterate hand.............

Keep looking, he moved up your way in the mid 90s when things slowed way down here. It was his first time on a plane. Hell, it was his first time near a city. He used to ask stuff like, "what's it like up there, you know, in the city?"

He's not dumb and he speaks English just fine. He just never learned to read or write.

Hell...I too am a dumb/illiterate Logger....................

Find this really hard to beleive. If these poor Mexicans had any will to better themselves, they would.

That's OK, it all evens out. The two most well read men I've ever met were loggers. One quit school in sixth grade. When he died at 93 he only had $1500 left after paying for the plot and box. The other one had a stock portfolio worth well over $1 million when I knew him. He used to shoot at the same gun range I did. Really nice guy and he sure didn't look rich.

My worst nightmare,is to die with $1000 in the Bank................

I'd like to have at least enough to buy what passes for my friends at the time a few drinks. It might run a couple grand with the way inflation is going.

340boy & Bristoe; Oh boy, are we going to talk about the Civil War again? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My Portfolio,is the Easy Come/Easy Go plan.

I've always made lotsa money and spent lotsa money,because tomorrow may never come.

I got drunk once...................

Perfect financial planning is bouncing the check to the undertaker <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm with ya....................

In the first place I never said anything about "Mexicans". Ninety percent of these illiterate workers are American citizens. Most were born of nonresident migrant field workers somewhere on their annual migration from Eagle Pass Texas to Portland Oregon and back again during the late forties and the fifties. The younger generation has very little problem with literacy.

If they had no will to better themselves they would not have been pushing a wheelbarrow, shoveling crap, swinging a sledge hammer, or throwing one hundred pound bales for forty hours a week plus every bit of overtime they could get. And doing so on shifts which rotated every week when it was minus twenty degrees F in the winter and a hundred fifteen in the summer. Most of them are far more motivated to better themselves than is the typical "teat sucking" American of any ancestry.

Having the desire to provide a better living for your children than you had growing up is prevalent among these folks. Having the imagination to see themselves ever actually doing something better than shoveling crap is not so prevalent. They believe they are only suited to manual labor, many actually believe they are stupid, when actually they are only uneducated. Most of the ones I work with are making sure their kids are not so limited.

ABSO-EFFING-LUTLY!!!!!

I do like that one... first time I have heard it, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And what trade would that be?

Automobile Collision technician.

Bushrat---did you read this. I'm not UAW, nor are any of the contractors that work for the UAW. Big difference. Our jobs are not protected any more than anybody elses. We have to know our schitt and do it well........

Neither was I, the union shops I worked in were somehow lumped in with the Aerospace machinists. I could never figure that one out either <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

There is no such thing as a "certified journeyman". That's why I asked you the question, have never heard anyone refer to it that way. You are either a journeyman or not. However, certain jobs require special training beyond what you learn in the typical apprenticeship programs. For example, I'm a certified full radiation worker (nuke plants) and scaffold builder. These are jobs you don't just send guys on without special training, too dangerous for them and the people around them............many don't pass the tests and don't make it in..........

1

I'm not so quietly spending my children's inheritance, every penny..
On what?
GUNZ... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Don

depends,..... are you worthy?

Yeah,ain't that the truth.I guess in his line of work he runs into union craftsmen under every tree thus forming his expert opinion on just about anything under the sun.

djmbow says:

I realize that this may be somewhat of an oversimplification Bristoe, but didn't it go something like this:

THE NORTH WON!

(and some in the South have been pissing and moaning ever since)

The End..............

Bushrat - can you explain to me how you can work 4 days and ethically claim 21.5 billable hours a day? This sounds like the way some large law firms manage to have their young lawyers billing 20 hours a day even though they are not physically able to do so.
After reading through this thread this morning it is evident there never will be agreement on this topic, there are too many divergent opinions. Especially when some posters have such inflated opinions of their knowledge even though they are unable to complete a comprehensible sentence.
Oh well, it helps pass time on an otherwise dull Sunday morning.

Well, actually it's more correct to say that the people lost.

I'll assume that you're a yankee,... due to your wrongheaded opinions and foul disposition.

Good Morning 284LUVR
How have you been? It's a little cold now for the straight pipes and blue flames but I had mine running yesterday just to make sure she would start and to listen to them pipes!!!!

[/quote]
In the first place I never said anything about "Mexicans". [/quote]

[/quote]Of course a lot of these fine men of Mexican descent (many of which were very desirable employees for the drone type work which they did) could not have completed the apps in Spanish either. They had always been too busy earning their daily bread to get an education. Many had been in the fields from the time they were ten years old and felt very fortunate to get a high paying factory job.[/quote]

1OntararioJim I didn't know that being able to form a sentence was in direct relationship to a craftsmans workmanship.We have dozens of people in management at our facility with masters degrees and a smattering of PH.Ds that have difficulty or in fact cannot do our jobs.It took a little doing but after some heated words at times we were able to get various managers on the floor for some hands on experience which led to a complete restructuring and cost savings to many of our procedures.Only lends more creedence to the adage.

Those that can't do teach.

jghoghunter,Good morning to you as well.Are you back from the job you talked about the last time we PM'd.

Gonna take the engine out of the race bike soon to get it ready for this season.Night time drag racing.YEAH BABY! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Got that hog gun ready?

Can't know if you guys are playing dumb,or if it's all you can muster....................

Slow road to nowhere...............

You're only a click away from freedom.

I enjoy a good Special Needs Telethon.

Union panhandling is all of that and then some......................

All four of my licences say "certified Journeman" maybe its a Canadian thing?

That is what I experienced as well, Jorge. Poor workers are usually teamed up with good ones and supervisors tend to hold the good employee accountable for "team" production. Needless to say, the good employees soon get tired of this and either leave or become poor employees with a bad attitude. This holds true for both GS (general service) and WB (wage board) employees!

Too many years ago than I want to admit, I quit my civil service job because I couldn't stand the civil service culture, and too proud to be a poor employee. I called the local IBEW and sought employment. All the apprentice jobs were filled, and would be for some time. Nothing was available I was told and that I needed a "way in" such as
having a relative, etc. to get me in. How? I don't know?

So I set about taking the state electrician's test and the state's electrical contractor's test. After passing both
with flying colors, I opened up my own one-man shop. It
wasn't two days and I received a call from the IBEW asking if I would be a union shop. "Screw you", I said, and hung up! I suppose that as my company's only employee, I would have been a union member? Or would the union have insisted I be replaced with one of their own?

2muchgun,

Does holding a license from a state that requires them make one certified? I always thought so? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

OK, I get the point and pretty much agree. What about farmers paid not to farm their land? What about corporate welfare? ADM receives a very, very large amount of this
in the form of different incentives. ADM! One of the most profitable companies in the world!

Just what do we mean when we say, "on the tit"? Anyone directly or indirectly receiving government monies? Or
do we mean anyone receiving pay for no work?

What about CEOs who get large bonuses while the companies they run are going broke? Shouldn't everyone's pay have a
direct relationship to accomplishment?

I see some valid points on both sides!? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

It's quite easy. It works like this. Guy smashes up his car, goes to his insurance company and files a claim. Adjuster looks at the car and does an estimate. The estimates are written according how much time adjuster thinks it will take to do a repair. i.e. they write an estimate on repairs, for example lets say a front end collision. estimate goes something like this: simplified form
replace front bumper 1.3 hours
replace radiator support
(includes grille, lights, etc) 6.5 hours
replace left fender 1.5 hours
replace right fender 1.5 hours
replace hood 1.5 hours
replace condenser and rad 2.5 hours
Paint replaced parts 10.0 hours
Total 23.5 hours
You can do a simple job like this in 8 hours.
We get payed flat rate or piece work, that is employee gets paid the hours on the estimate, shop gets payed same the hours. That is the incentive. When you complete the job you get payed the hours on the estimate by your employer, the insurance company payes the shop those same hours as agreed upon with the adjuster. A organized tech who knows what he's doing with good equipment can generally get payed double the hours he works. Insurance companies vary in repair times and hourly rates and repair procedures, some are generous, some are unrealistically bent the other way and we refuse their work. I am shop foreman and get a bonus based on all total billable hours put through.

That's busheling..................

Its not hard to tell who the misinformed "dumb ones" are here. Those who have done it or those who read about the UAW and believe thats the only union.
P.S. Our program is a 5 year apprenticeship with a college degree at the end. How many nonunion apprenticeships give you that at the end? They just use it as another form of cheap labor for 5 years.

I was there for 2 weeks of pre outage and will be going back in 2 weeks for 50-75 days.
I'm doing some fine tuning on the hog gun as we speak.
Also just booked the Prairie dog hunt for this summer. Come on June!!!!

Bushrat,

Does that mean I'm subsidizing your time paid for not working through my insurance premiums even if I never have an accident?

I must admit that your pay scheme seems....a little suspect as you present it. However, if one looks at a flat rate for each item accomplished without regard to the hours involved, it appears fair.

The flaw in your system is in the assignment of hours to each task for the purpose of billing. A flat rate makes more sense and does not have the appearance of impropriety as does the hourly system.

If you are charging X dollars per hour, you are cheating your customers with outright lies! If you are providing an "estimate", then the bill should refelct the actual hours worked.

Try going to a "bid" system based on "flat rates". Then, and only then, will you be seen as engaged in something other than legalized theft! It is this type mof business practices that makes the auto industry, dealers primarily,
seem as though it is permeated with crooks!

Car dealers, and repairmen, rank just above politicians and lawyers!

Yep,good ol'Stick has a handle on jess 'bout anthing that comes down the pike.Worked on a fishin boat and now cuts timber but really really really(yawn) has a working knowledge of the working man and the workplace down here in the lower 48.

And here I thought I was the only one who noticed that? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Yup. But it's not us that writes the estimate, it's your insurance company. And yes it's also you that susidises the bad drivers. Personally I've never had an insurance claim.
Mechanic shops also work on the flat rate scheme, e.g. they can change your alternator in 15 minutes yet the flat rate book will bill you 1.5 hours. We don't write the book.

Born/raised in the Lower48,most all my pards still live there and more than a few are Industrial/Commercial Contractors and the Union Thing is frequent topic of conversation,due to the grandeur of the ruse.

Amazing whatch'll see,in a Union Town and while I've no doubt it'd impress you,it never did me...................

I wasn't picking on you bushy! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I just think the system could benefit from a little updating! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Now I do realize I get to pick my insurance company! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My grampa had a union plumbing shop and my uncle has a nonunion plumbing shop, I worked for both and have seen both sides from the owners point of view and a employees. I'm a member of plumbers and pipfitters local 26. WA is a prevailing wage state so Theres not much diffrence in pay between union and nonunion plumbers on most of the large commercial jobs. The plumbers union is ran by its members and we know that the contractors that we work for have to be able to compete with all the other contractors or were not employable. In the construction trades the unions understand that we have to take care of the contractors as much as our members. Most of the plumbers that I've met in the union are good hands and work hard, the few that don't, cant stay employed for long. As a forman I can layoff anybody thats not working up to my standards and the union wont interfear.
My uncle has told me many times that he cant find good help and that if he wasnt so close to retirment he would join the union.

Jamie

Nobody can find good help and for that reason,these ARE the Good Old Days.

A guy with gumption and a shred of smarts,can go wherever he wishes and be greedily reeled into the fold.....................

yeah,... he'll get reeled in aw-ite,.....

If I need more help on a job, I call the union hall and they send me a Journeyman plumber. If the plumber the hall sends me is a good hand then I will keep him as long as I need to. If he isnt worth crap as some of the guys arent, then I lay him off and make another call to the hall.

Jamie

I don't live in a union town nor am I easily impressed.The company that signs my check and the union that represents our membership have jelled into a orginization that makes a good product.Sounds like you have second hand info coming from your friends.Which unions have you worked with and why did you leave?

There's more good work readily available now,than ever before. Benefit packages have improved,conditions have improved and all is ripe for the picking.

My kids futures are paved with gold...................

My pride wouldn't allow me,to boot up for a Union.................

I'll have some of what this guy is smokin',....

Amazing the opportunities that abound,if you are willing to get off your ass and work.

Give it a whirl.

I'm gonna work on catching a Steelhead....................

[quote

I wasn't picking on you bushy! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I just think the system could benefit from a little updating! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Now I do realize I get to pick my insurance company! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> [/quote]
Forgot to mention that insurance hourly rates paid to shops are artificially low as compared to mechanic shops. Our shop labour rate is only $55.00 hour while mechanic shop rates in this area are slightly over $100.00 per hour. The average autobody tech gets $22-$25 bucks an hour with no time and a half for the hours gained over the hours he works. mechanic are getting paid $30-$45 hour. So in a sense the insurance companies keep the shareholders happy cause the hourly rate they pay appears low, they can throw extra hours at a job to keep the shops and techs happy. Also in an area like this where there is an extreme shortage of labourers, we cannot accomidate all the jobs, the insurance companies will try to outbid the other companies in an effort to get their claimes fixed and have the customers back in their vehicles. Some companies will have their customers without their car for months while they try to find somebody to fix their vehicle at cut rates.

I gotta go load some shells and spend a few hours at the range this afternoon, it's only -5, we don't get many warm days like this.

Bitch whine and cry instead of geeting of your arse and doing what it takes, the classic union ethic.

I take that as a no.But yer a friggin' expert on them.

I totaly agree that a good hand is going to work steady, union or not. As a plumber around here the union employers and jobs are better.

Jamie

I'm off today,... but thanks for the suggestion.

By the way,.. I've been doing "what it takes" for quite some time now,... fairly successfully, I might add.

I totally agree with Stick, and will happily ad that it has NEVER been easier to get better education than it is today! When I was working on my undergraduate degree, I never dreamed there would be night/weekend graduate programs (of quality) that would not require you to put your life on hold for 2 years to complete..................Anyone can change their life if they actually desire to.......

I could not fathom looking my wife and kids in the face if I relied on someone else to bargain wages/benefit's etc.........

I am off most every day and have been doing what it takes from the beginning, not for some time. I can see things for what they are an how to achive them with out paying someone to me backup and sniveling.

So what was the incident that made you decide to become a lazy ass?

No doubt the A bombs were destructive in the extreme, but there would have been far more dead had we invaded rather than use the bomb. There were more people killed in the "conventional" battle to liberate Manila than there were at Nagasaki or Hiroshima.

When I first spotted this thread (days ago) I decided to ignore it. I figured much the same as the anti-LEO threads, it would be the same people bashing unions who just can�t get enough of it, almost to an obsession with the unions. The same people who really believe that unions are at fault for jobs going over seas.
The fact that many employers now ignore Mexico (as being too expensive), instead opting to move half way around the world instead of a thousand miles to the south, where they can pay $10 per day; is some how the fault of the unions?

I wonder if anyone even knows how many of these companies that moved off shore were even union�if they weren�t, what would you then attribute the move to? When you figure that out, then ask why a union shop would have different motives for laying off and moving off shore.

People like to point to Europe as a snapshot to those who won�t wise up to the spread of Muslims through out the continent, well I�ll then point to Mexico and ask you what happened to the Mexican middle class, and why wouldn�t you think it could happen here if we continue down the same path?

Almost everyone on this board believes the U.S government is easing down the road to corruption, but then give that same government the benefit of the doubt when they create laws and tax breaks for those who stuff their pockets full of contributions.

Many tout the economy as being healthy, well how is it that home sales are down? I work in construction & I made 10K less in �06, than in �05. My gas bill, fuel bill, grocery bill all rose sharply. I�ll grant you my 401K did pretty well, life is good for the stock market, but as far as living in the current, there are no new Remingtons or Rugers in my near future.

Somebody shamed the unions for trying to organize the illegals, well WTF do you expect? that is the workforce! The government doesn�t do a damn thing to stop it, what choice do the unions have here? Let the illegal continue to drive down worker wages, or play the same game the government & business is in.

It appears that the illegal is here to stay no? Then why would I want him out there working for half my wage? The day the U.S government gets serious about stopping the flood of cheap labor, is the same day I�ll be concerned about the unions trying to organize them. Business takes advantage of a corrupt U.S government that allows the flood of cheap labor, but then we slam the unions who at first fought illegal immigration, but now have adapted to the corruption?
I guess some would rather the blue collar in this country just bend over and accept it it like...........sheeple, maybe?

When the post count on this thread raised up to nine pages I begin to think that this thread might be some what different, so I looked in�here we are�somebody pass me the popcorn.

Lots of strong opinions on the union- non union issue. I work in a union shop (millwright) as stated earlier in this thread. I have worked steady since 1971 in both union non union shops.
so if 36yrs of obsevation is worth anything here goes. there are good non union employeers but they are not that common, the law of the land only loosely holds them in check, safety, enviroment, worker respect can be real bad bosses relatives get the best kick at the jobs and alot of the time you will be carrying there load, you have to suck hole to get holidays, you have to endure the rightous all powerfull owner/ supervisor, these are worse case but there is a bit of this in all of them. The union situation has a much better safety record things are done right the employeer is monitored at all times to operate within the law of the land and mutually agreed contract, they like this as the union does much of there work for them in that respect. I and my work mates are repected in our workplace, by deed and by position( mr supervisor when you talk to me you talk to all of us), I don't have to suck hole to get what is mine , the rules are clearly known and documented. We have a good working relationship with our employeer although its a constant battle to keep each other on the straight and narrow. What is trouble some is that some on this thread have such strong feelings against, one or the other. We do not heckle non union contractors on our site these guys have to provide for their families as I do, its just that their situation is not as good. Because, of my work in support of production facility slip shod work is not tolerated by the employeer , my work mates or by me, we have to live with this rpoduction monster the contractors come and go. If you want to "improve yourself" I have not noticed a lock on the door. One other thing my employeer is in the process of chain link and razor wire on the perimeter of the property, we ask whats that about, we ship product to USA and are told we must be secure because osama might slip something into the mix. Is your government putting y'all on lock down? No fun living in fear, the sand ***** has you all out of joint.

Semi retirement, early.

pabbot
I am a public employee and if it were not for our union there would be no public employee's because no one would work for the low wages the City I work for wants to offer. Except for maybe the illegals. The cheesy little union we have is our only recourse and becuase of Iowa and Federal law we have so few bargaining rights anyway. It's our only hope. kwg

Been around it much and none of it is difficult to discern.

I can't apologize,for being astute,but I am somewhat amazed at how little Joe Average has seen/done................

Please do not infer,that I'm "anti-Bomb",because that is polar opposite of my stance.

Tuned the Japs right up and I'm all for tuning Ragheads next.....................

How can anyone think their City would just go away without a Union !?

If there are QUALIFIED people stupid enough to work for a dollar a day, then why would the employer even think of paying more ? If the QUALIFIED people were smart enough to not work for dirt wages, then there would be a higher demand for QUALIFIED people, and the price would go up. The only trick to getting a decent income is to be worth it and know it.

I always could price my own strip....................

Bristoe; No. But I did learn some things from a discussion you were in on not too long ago. I appreciate that.

Having dealt with some city government folks I've come to the opinion that being qualified really isn't a huge concern. They take the best of the pool that walks in the door for the money advertized and accept the level of incompetance they get.

That's why things get lost, take weeks instead of days, etc. when you deal with city hall, the county, and most state offices. That's true union or not. You get what you pay for and they aren't willing to use enough bait.

I won't deny that you are better with some people than me, maybe even better with all people, but I am FAR from working at Walmart.........

I used to think "paper or plastic" was about hulls, not culls.

Not to mention the fire bombing campaign.
We had basically burned down most of the country by the time we dropped the first bomb on Hiroshima.
If I recall, they actually had a hard time coming up with suitable targets that had not already been incinerated by LeMay's B-29's.

You are a smart Businessman and I know that you don't work cheap and you pay your boys exceptionally well,with many perks. IMHO,that's the only way to run a Show.

Guys work harder and do a better job,when they sincererly give a [bleep] and attitude is everything.

Hell...if I can work for you,anybody can...................(grin)

Caught myself laughing here...because you are still pizzed I didn't whip Joe's ass!...................

I'd love to see some of the untrained, non-union nitwits (not saying that ALL are) go and attempt to do some of the jobs I go on. Half of them would take one look, turn around and walk out. Accidents would be at an all time high, and productivity at an all time low in any of the blast furnaces, oil refineries, or nuclear plants I've worked at.........

Joe needed it many times, though never more than the "secret tramp" incident, however that would have played into his hand politicly, sticking around was even better way to rub his nose in his own "ineptitude".

I'm still glad that I didn't "accidently" saw him in half when I was cutting trail behind him on one of his aimless extended marches...

Experience is not something Unions have the corner on...

I would be a fish out of water in your vocation, exactly as you would be in mine. I started out at the bottom of the bottom in the industry I work in, my ambition and intelligence (or lack of) has got me to where I am, there are friends of mine still at the bottom 20 years later because that is where they are the most suited/comfortable..........in a Union outfit they would probably be somewhere up the chain, and WAY over their head..........

Laughing.

If you'd ever seen danger,you'd have never rattled something so stupid.

A scaffold is scary?

Try riding a BU-98's skidding line,affixed to a Boman SkyCar,with enough skyline extensions to put you out over 5000' and it's over 1000' to the ground,in the guts of the draw...while setting upon a choked log.

Or hookride a longline off the chopper,for a mile or two,by setting on the hook Tarzan Style.

Set/haul some tows in screaming greenwater,with it blowing 100knots. Fight hanging up one side of the gear,in like conditions.

Do the buckling snag gig,on Billy Goat Rocks,with nowhere to run/hide.

Buck a 20 bushel tree laying on it's snout,in a Billy Goat V-Notch,with the belly above your head and loose logs laying underneath and above. The bitch is compounded because of weight,you gotta go short and it's 13-footers or bust.

Fight some Forest Fire,when an Easterly churns [bleep] and you do your Jesse Owens impression...not to bust Hitler's balls,but to live and tell about it.

Ride a crashing Hughes 500 through the canopy and inches away from the deck.

Wade through Brown Bears,to get to work.

That being said....I'm glued to my TV,when "Scary Scaffolds" runs in all it's dangerous glory.

Re-laughing.................

Thanks for the kind words, I wanted to say something lippy, but I will probably be working for you next..............

Your cutting trail,is one of my favorite stories.

I'm a master of the mindphuck and made his life more miserable than mine...................(grin)

Seen it, filed it away for future reference too. In my opinion the real problem was with the management system that would put a guy like that in position, a shame that a company like that could go so far the wrong direction so fast.

The pie is big,I'd get me some.

The Big Kitty came by last night and I think he scored a slot,through/with WhiteBall. Starting as a greenhorn,for 90-100K,ain't a horrid first step.

Though 6 months of vacation,is tough to get used to,for a working man.................

If there are QUALIFIED people stupid enough to work for a dollar a day, then why would the employer even think of paying more ? If the QUALIFIED people were smart enough to not work for dirt wages, then there would be a higher demand for QUALIFIED people, and the price would go up.

Stick
Why do you think there is more good wages and benifit packages out there today. Its not because Big Business says O.K. I want to pay my good workers more money. Its because Big Business says IF I don't pay better my good workers are going to leave. This is because union wages keep everything in check or we would all be working for peanuts.

Word from the few survivors who weathered the Storm,is that things are [bleep] than ever and in a big way.

Will have to hit the liquor store,then call you in a bit,so I can do the narrative justice.

Flipside of that is,I still think there is LOTS of money on the table there,for a Contractor. Fact is...it could be ugly good...................

It's because our Chickenshitt PC Nutlicking Society,has insulated themselves from what a good work ethic and attitude is.

For that reason,the GOOD guys is fewer and wages have gone up to entice them.

Has nothing to do with Union slobs....................

Union 12%, the other 82% is eating peanuts. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> What reality are you living in? The only thing the union keeps in check is mediocrity.

I've never seen anything grow so far so fast on this forum as this union post. A lot of emotion running high. I have worked union and non-union and have been on the management side of the table too. This, especially, is an issue where there are no absolutes. Unions aren't as necessary to the worker now as they were when jobs were a lot harder to come by and employers a lot more powerful. There are unions today that see the big picture, do well for their members and work cooperatively with management, just as there are unions that do way more harm than good. IMHO the worst are to be found in the public sector. Management (that is, ultimately the politicians) have no incentive to take a tough stance and get things under control because there's no bottom line. If costs go up, just raise taxes. The worst of the public sector union leaders don't give a damn about their membership, they're on a political power trip. They just love to suck the money from the membership and use their influence with that membership to be political power brokers, always for left wing politicians, did you ever notice?

I've never needed to take a Poll nor pay a Toll,to make sound decisions for myself.

I do not work under the illusion,that it isn't my job,to prove my relative worth daily,to my Employer.

Have never not made the cut and never not by a goodly margin........................

We're all impressed with that daily too, trust me.

"Scary Scaffolds"?......................

Was I drinking at the time?

You mean there are times when you aren't?

well,... yeah,... I'm usually easier to get along with when I'm not.

Alcahol eliminates my patience.

My worst nightmare,is to die with $1000 in the Bank................
------------------------------------------------------------------------

That line sure got me to thinking!!

Get yourself a couple more of them chilluns', Isaac and you won't have anything to worry about. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm sorry you're so unhappy with your job as a LEO, but you give folks a distorted impression of Iowa. You don't say which city you work for, but a search of the pay plans for central Iowa cities shows police officer pay scales to be generally comparable to those for similar jobs, including some requiring a four year degree. It looks like Des Moines, Ankeny and Ames require two years of college, but I know several officers who have four year degrees and still chose a police career, so the pay and benefits must be pretty competitive.

I don't know what you believe Iowa law prevents your union from negotiating that it should be able to bargain for, and I'm not aware of any federal law that applies. Iowa Code, Chapter 20 provides that the public employer and employee organization "shall---negotiate with good faith with respect to wages, hours, vacations, insurance, holidays, leaves of absence, shift differentials, overtime compensation, supplemental pay, seniority, transfer procedures, job classifications, health and safety matters, evaluation procedures, procedures for staff reduction, in-service training and other matters mutually agreed upon", which means these are just mandatory subjects; the parties may agree to negotiate about other topics. Perhaps you're one of those cops who believe that the P.D. is a democracy and that the Chief should consult with the officers and their union before making policy decisions or taking action.

Then, there's the Iowa retirement system that allows an officer with 22 years of service and age 55 to retire at 66% of his final pay, or additional service credit of 2% per year up to 82%. I'm betting that most of the folks here at the Campfire wouldn't find that too shabby. I know several officers who have planned well for retirement, and moved on to a second career, double dipping as it were. I'm not trying to dump on you, and you're entitled to your opinion, but I feel you're giving folks a distorted picture of the law enforcement profession in Iowa.

Paul

Like I said before its hard to fight a battle of witts with the unarmed!!!!
I'm glad nanthanial and big stick have all the answers. From now on I believe if we here at the Fire have a problem we should contact these 2, I'm sure if we ask them they will enlighten us with all their wisdom!!!!!!!!

[/quote]Of course a lot of these fine men of Mexican descent (many of which were very desirable employees for the drone type work which they did) could not have completed the apps in Spanish either. They had always been too busy earning their daily bread to get an education. Many had been in the fields from the time they were ten years old and felt very fortunate to get a high paying factory job.[/quote] [/quote]

Being of Mexican descent certainly does not preclude them from being Americans. Enough of them are wearing or have worn the uniforms of this nation's armed forces to convince me they are as American as any of the rest of us.

Never have heard a one of them utter the objectionable term Mexican-American. They are just Americans.

Stick stated that he refused to 'get on the teet' and refuses to 'suck' and all that. Seems to portray rugged individualism to a tee.

Trouble is that I'm betting he don't mind getting out of state and property tax because of the high taxes Alaska has on oil... using a pipeline built almost exclusively by union labor. And then taxing the rest of us, in effect, to subsidize their almost non-existent economy. I'm betting you didn't negotiate that contract on your own Stick. You probably get more in the way of tax money coming your way than any of us in the Lower 48.

And that old ruse 'I never had trouble not being last' and all that old crap just shows the rest of us that you ain't never seen tough times pard. Some of us have seen good men, hard men, stand in line for government cheese and milk. The mines shut down and there simply was no other choice than to either stand in line of watch your kids go hungry.

Those of us who were there know better. We know that each of us is only a gene mutation away from financial ruin. That in some circumstances a good man can get taken down hard through no fault of his own.

Most of the really tough men I've known were sparing in the use of brags and arrogance. They've seen that each of us can be forced to watch everything they built crumble. They've learned a little humility. And none of them took each argument they started as an excuse to snow everyone else under with an avalanche of words and then turn it into a chance to brag on his own flirtations with death.

My God man, did you read all of that stuff you wrote? Sounds like 'Dangerous Dan McGrew in the Yukon' stuff to me man.

I remember the very first post I ever made on this site you and a few others took it as a chance to jump on me. You were even rude enough to pick a fight and challenge a man you never met to a fight... On an Internet forum! Pathetic. After seeing a few pictures of you I'd have to say it's also laughable.

You need to grow up. These sad cries for attention need to stop. You're becoming a joke man. We were having a fairly productive discussion until you jumped in and buried the whole thing under a few hundred posts. Hell, even if the rest of us wanted to continue it we couldn't. Jesus Christ it would take a 245 and a half dozen triple sevens to dig out from under all of this crap.

Will

Holy cow Penguin is it that obvious or is one of us here just that stupid. Nice post my friend.

better pay, in alot of cases, better working conditions, better safety, pension , senior people up to 7 weeks off a year OR gypsy from one job to another , poor working conditions being away from home much of the year, sleazy hotel rooms on the 4th wife, the circus life. Some like it some do not, let each chose and stay out of each others way. My vote is union but thats not the only choice.gets pretty long after Just ask any X contractor tradesperson I work with now.

SSSSSSSSOOOOOOOOOO what wood John Wayne do, there a few on this forum, he wood light a smoke, knock back a whiskey and back hand the old lady.

I don't remember John Wayne asking where to file a grievance, nor sitting on his butt watching good men work because it was his break time...

[/quote]Of course a lot of these fine men of Mexican descent (many of which were very desirable employees for the drone type work which they did) could not have completed the apps in Spanish either. They had always been too busy earning their daily bread to get an education. Many had been in the fields from the time they were ten years old and felt very fortunate to get a high paying factory job.[/quote] [/quote]

Being of Mexican descent certainly does not preclude them from being Americans. Enough of them are wearing or have worn the uniforms of this nation's armed forces to convince me they are as American as any of the rest of us.

Never have heard a one of them utter the objectionable term Mexican-American. They are just Americans. [/quote]


Nor does it make �all� of them Americans either. You�re lucky to have never heard the objectionable term Mexican-American. Myself, I�ve seen it on TV to a large extent and heard it first hand.
Not a problem to disagree or have a different opinion in this land. I served through retirement with many Americans of Mexican descent, men, most of who had the will and drive to succeed in life. I will not feel sorry for someone who is content, or not, with their own situations. If you sit around on your ass and complain and want someone to take care of your problems you deserve what you got. There are choices to every situation. Deal with will power and reality and you shall achieve. Improvise, adapt and overcome.

My biggest issue with unions is I am not content with paying someone to be my mouth piece and making a living off my labor. I control my own destiny. If hard times come I will deal with it. On the other hand if you are happy working union then so be it. Don�t like others opinions and beliefs? Don�t entertain them!

"Then, there's the Iowa retirement system that allows an officer with 22 years of service and age 55 to retire at 66% of his final pay, or additional service credit of 2% per year up to 82%."

That's just the problem with public employee unions. Why should the taxpayers have to pay some bum not to work? If, after 22 years his feet are too flat or his potbelly is too big to function as a police officer, let him go on a diet and work out. Or, give him a job pushing commas with a pencil for a few years until he's 65.

What unions are all about is taking more money from the employer than they are willing to earn by legitimate work, making either the public at large or a company's customers pay the difference. Some call that stealing.

Penguin; No holes in your post that I can see. Thanks for putting it in writing.

Why 65, why not 75 or 80? Why should some lazy old geezer with his teeth in a glass next to his bed get off easy?


Maybe because in advanced nations we can earn a retirement as part of our compensation for doing a job. You do know that our "lazy bums" in the military get to retire at 50% pay after only 20 years of service right? Why are they so special?

Personally I think they earn it and so do cops and firefighters. Most firefighters retire with back problems or some other job related injury anyway so you're not out much if they make their 20 or so years.

Who is John Gault?

So other than social security your employer doesn't contribute a dime towards your retirement program?

http://www.signsofspirit.com/john_gaul.html

Fires is far from difficult,to cypher.

BT/DT....................

'guin,

I've been me,all my Life. Have never not been in the front of the pack and have both been places and seen things. Anyone that knows me,knows THAT.

I pay property tax,Federal tax and live in an exceptionally expensive A/O,as per the cost of living. All very good trades,IMHO,for the quality of Life.

Don't try to place your stupidity,upon my shoulders...despite my having the shoulders for the job.................

Just me and not to raise the dead - I ahve worked sites where I was the only non union guy. Never worked in a union. In my local and this is just what I see - but the union is necessary to train guys. Plumbers, steamfitters etc. Most non-union places won't hire you unless you show a journeyman's card - the only way to get one - be union at some point in time.

Simple fact is - around here - you can't be a plumber unless you were local 400 at some time.

They do serve a very good purpose in that regard. Getting people training in positions where there isn't a good system to do so.

Been looking at the unions myself for that very reason - being Joe plumber interests me - can't do that without getting a journeyman's card.

Why can I see Penguin in the bottom of a draw,drinking from the creek,while I've 5 sections strung uphill and am tugging them to button a layout...and him asking me,if I'd like him to "push" me some slack?!!?

My pride won't allow me alotta things and a puzzy,is at the top of that list....................

It looks like you two are off to a good start.

I only hope your fans will continue to speak up, this one might have legs...

Nothing worse than a fairleadin' [bleep],who's sole claim to fame,is that they watched a good man work.

That ain't much of a resume and I reckon a picture would solve that mystery.

Laffin'.....................

I'm a business agent for local 1325 of the UBC.
( Alberta Regional Council)
Been a union hand all my working life, and if I wanted to work through a break to get a job finished, than take my break, no one cared.
Take pride in your work, and yourself I say, no matter what your vocation is.
Good carpenters are plenty in our hall, and our scaffolders are recognized World Wide, by both union AND no union companies.
I would put our tradesmen to the test against any, and they prove their worth every day.

I also have friends who work no union, that being their choice.
Cat

i worked through lunch today, no one asked this time I just want to keep the place running, cat and hat is right we have good trades people around here, we trust our lives to each other as well

Penguin, Theres's a very simply solution to the "Alaskan Jackass". Click on his name and then click on ignore this user. It's as easy as that! I did it about a month or so ago and it's wonderful. Can't see a damn thing he types!!! I'm telling ya it sure is nice! Try it you'll like it! I'm at this site to enjoy and learn. And there is plenty of others out there with valuable info. The guys a flamming idiot. Don't fuel the fire. Enjoy!

Push me some slack,if you can stand the "workout"..................

Somebody translate that into Spanish,so 'death can savvy?

Appreciate it........................

Now that there is the definition of "hard ass"

So any cop or fireman who does is twenty years and retires is a pot bellied slob who doesn't deserve to retire until 65?

Wow, not only that, I just learned I'm a thief to boot, a undignified extortionist who is unqualified to make a legitimate living.

Damn, Jimmy Hoffa knock you on your ass back in the day?

Thanks Creepingdeath I took your advice also and the ALASKAN JACKASS or is it BIG D_CK IS NO MORE!!!!!!!!! Sure is strange how someone could do so much and know something about everything and STILL have time to post over 26000 replies!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Nothing like 2 gents in Tin Foil hats,communicating aloud.

Laffin'...................

C'mon Stick, you can do better than that. I'm falling asleep over here.

Nathanial,

You are reading a lot into my posts which has not been written there.

I was only referring to a small local group of gentlemen. Many of whom I have worked beside since 1976. Our workplace is located in a small town which is about 50% Hispanic. Most of them are third or fourth generation Americans. In our plant it was quite common to see two and occasionally three generations working side by side. But that was before the workforce at our location was reduced by eighty percent two years ago.

Some of the first or second generation Americans are in our workforce and unfortunately some of them are illiterate. The company and the union agreed, those who were illiterate were too much of a liability to remain on the payroll.

I never said anything about them complaining, I was not complaining. I was trying to make the point that unions and corporations can get along in a symbiotic relationship, when they each recognize what is good for the other. Not all unions are parasites. And some corporations recognize they would be incapable of existence without a labor force. Some even recognize they must pay good money to get good people.

I have not really said anything here about whether I am a big fan of the union or not. I have just related some facts regarding the one at our facility.

My personal opinion is, I can take it or leave it. I have never needed the union to speak for me either. I have no problem stepping into the office and speaking frankly with my supervisor.

It has been about fifteen years since I was dependent upon the union for my wage scale. Been getting merit increases ever since then. Those are not negotiated by the union.

In thirty years at this location my only personal dealings with the union came when the Union Pres falsely reported to the Plant Supervisor that I was using racial slurs and insults toward ethnic employees. I had no trouble setting the matter straight with the Supervisor. Nor was the Union Pres in any doubt about what I thought of him. You might see that I have as much reason to hate and mistrust the union hierarchy as anyone.

But unfortunately not every individual has an IQ equal to mine and certainly not equal to yours. Not every individual has the self confidence, the demeanor, or the social skills to step into a room with supervisory personnel and communicate well. That certainly does not mean he is not capable of doing the job he was hired to do. Nor does it mean he is not suited to more critical jobs and promotions.

I certainly see nothing wrong with these folks banding together and paying another to be their spokesperson, if that is what they desire. I certainly have no problem with them pooling their resources and sharing their risks. Is not democracy also about the spirit of cooperation.

As long as I can do work which I find pleasurable and fulfilling, for a wage which supports me and mine in the manner to which we are accustomed. As long as that place of employment is within a decent drive from the place which I choose to call home. As long as my employer continues to pay me 50% to 100% more than I could make at any other nearby employment, I'll continue to give the union their twenty bucks a month.

Playing with Retards,is only so satisfying.

Sorta like whippin' a Chink's ass...in a half hour,you just wanna do it again.................(grin)

Well put, Idaho.

Idaho, you bring up an obvious fact. I think most of the union bashers feel that the unions are full of the lazy who seek to have the union protection to go on working less for more. What is obvious is that many sought out the jobs that paid the best and offered the best incentives; if that would have been a non-union company, then that's where I would be. Being union or non-union, I'm the same man, and my self pride dictates my work ethic, not whether or not I am a union worker.

Most union folk went looking for the best package, they didn't single out union companies only, in order to work less or get over on their employers.

Way to go Barkoff. I'm usually one of the first on the jobs and one of the last to go as my work stands for itself. No azz kissin here just ask my BA we don't see eye to eye on anything!!!

This is to damn funny! The moron knows we can't see what he's typing yet he still responds. I'm LMAO! Hilarious! He reminds me of the typical loud mouth bully on the play ground. Once again a simple solution. Bloody the dummy's nose and all of a sudden he isn't so loud and tough no more. Enjoy that ignore user option. I sure do!! Glad I could help! .

I guess I can cancel my gym membership since according to a few on here I am supposed to be getting fat and lazy. Also apparently fighting fires is an easy job, I wish someone would have told me that years ago since I have been busting my ass for the past ten years apparently doing it wrong. The burns, back and shoulder injuries etc. could have all been avoided. Lets not forget having to pickup the extremely overweight patients also, I guess they area all retired union employees though.

'death,

Tighten the elastic band on the Tin Foil hat,you've foreskin in your eyes....................

I've worked with a couple few Smoke Jumpers. Though none of them could cut for [bleep],they didn't do too horrid bad in the brush,as far as getting around.

Prolly because they ain't Union,as one of their physical salvations........................

The ignore button on this site is a lot like the safety button on a rifle, if you don't have what it takes between your ears to get by without it, then you won't get anything out of it anyway.

If you pretend to put me on ignore, will you still be able to make comments on what you think I might have said ?

I'd like to throw my $.02 in on this one. I am a firefighter and am employed by the government. I have always been a union dues paying member since the beginning. I dont always agree with some of the battles that the union takes on but this is what I do believe and many of you might agree with me. How many times in your lives did you have a good job , in a place you and your family were happy. And all of a sudden some jackass gets promoted to a management position and everybody in the place is looking around going... what the hell were they thinking hiring or promoting this guy. Well now some new or old jackass is your supervisor and for one reason or another you guys dont see eye to eye. This new jackass manager decides to target you and or your crew. He has the power to okay your vacation time, your raises over the years and directly affects everything in your day to day life. This guy has no friggin business as a manager but somehow he got the job. Well with this being said, without a union this jackass that has no business running the outfit has free reign to completely ass up a workplace. Run off some of the best workers and maybe even fire a few. However with a union this jackass has a choke collar on him and if he so much as steps out of line the leash gets jerked and he gets right back to behaving. Its really pretty sad that this is what it takes to keep managers in line and also eliminate ass kissing and &^%* sucking up to managers. It keeps the workplace in place and the natives dont get too restless. Now on the other side of the scope, if you have good management then the union isn''t really neccessary but it was started to keep managers from running sweat shops and actually providing good work environments and competetive salaries to go with it. Oh and Stick, smoke jumpers (BLM) are and do have a pretty strong union AFGE.

One of my tenants used to fly Cobras in Vietnam. He ended up in a few crashes. The last one was pretty bad and the other guy got killed. Vern laid in the jungle for three days until his fellow Marines found him. He was pretty busted up with a shattered pelvis and messed up lower back.

He couldn't fly after the war so he learned to weld. He was working in a welding shop in town. It was a nonunion outfit but he needed the money.

First thing was that none of the wildcat grinders had guards on them. Vern mentioned that it wasn't safe and the foreman told him to shut up or collect his pay on the way out.

A couple weeks later he was taking off his leathers and his shirt rode up. The foreman saw his scars and fired him on the spot. He claimed it made him likely to get hurt and sue them.

That kind of thing just doesn't go on in a union outfit. Vern was a good hand and worked hard. He got his scars in service to his country but some pinhead could decide to fire him for having them.

There are jerks in the union too but they don't have free reign to act that way.

Companies who let wingnuts get to management level, and wingnut managers/small business owners are self eliminating in an environment where good men are not affraid to walk out the door...
I think it's called "supply and demand".

Thats true but it still happens all the time. I've seen dealerships with crap for management run off every skilled Tech they have and then when all is said and done finally somebody looks at the big picture and says what the hell happened, but this wake up takes a long time. Bad managers have a way with words and misconstrued truths to their superiors (owners and or senior managers) and you never know what they tell em and or what they believe is going on. Its a lot like our government. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

While that may be true for the building trades apprenticeship programs are federally regulated. I served my apprenticeship in a non-union shop. The company would put on 12 apprentices at the same time with the goal of only 3 completing the course. Work ethics went a long way towards completing the apprenticeship sucessfully.

+ 1 for alaska cub, it is so true

We went through a period at work where the older salary foremen were retiring and the plant was hiring new supervisors. Really enjoyed breaking some of them in. I generally knew who the azeholes were the first time I had to deal with them. The experienced supervisors would take the good rookies and explain to them that I was the go-to guy if the needed something, the rest were left for me as fresh meat. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'd explain to the overzealous supervisors that I could make them look like a hero or the worlds biggest fool, their choice.

You poor, sad bastard. You keep fanasizing about running me into the ground or whipping me or whatever else you can dream up.

If you pay property tax you're one of the few in Alaska that do. But I see you scrupulously avoided mentioning the state income and sales tax that the rest of us pay for you. You're on the teet moreso than the rest of us and everyone here knows it.

And as far as watching a good man work being my claim to fame... well the odds are that a hell of a lot of people on this site, including you, have seen my work on TV. They'll be a couple hundred thousand people who ante up $150 a pop to see the work of those of us who build them down here in a few weeks. And it'll be on prime time TV. And the way practice went I may get a chance to see my stuff take the checkers at the 500.

Since you're into fantasies, you fantasize on that for a while.

And another thing, I didn't need Daddy to hook me up in the business either. If there is one thing I cannot stand it is someone who gets started in business through his family and then because of embarrassment tries to pretend he's a self made man. Another fantasy you cooked up. There's nothing to be ashamed of son. Go ahead and admit it. We all know who got you started up there.

The really sad part is that you ~could~ be an asset to this forum. You obviously know how to hunt, and do it well. You've got a hell of a lot of outdoors savvy. You live in an area a lot of people pay a lot of money to just play in once in a while.

But instead you choose to needlessly insult anyone who disagrees with you. Over ANYTHING. Choice of caliber, or magnification of scope, or the make of truck. The size of rophy. Type of boots. Area to hunt bears. Name it and you have taken the occasion to insult anyone who made a different choice than you.

You need to come back to reality and leave those fantasies of yours behind.

Will

PS: Since you are so into fantasies and love to brag on your toys so much, ponder this: I just sent two engines we threw together out of spare parts over to the car shop for installation in show cars. And both of them dyno' more with a stock carb than that idiotic looking blower driven monstrosity you have in that piece of Camaro you've bragged on so much.

You ain't always got the best toys, junior. You're just the only one who yaks about them all the time.

I can't believe court is going to get in the way of my observation of this thread.

WILL--Since I'm forking out dough to your Alma Mater with another one on the list for this fall--How about shooting a poor father/stepfather some of those 500 tickets. Good luck to you on that. I thought Joe Gibbs was my only connection to that industry!!

Teat juice must make socialism palatable?

Tell the judge you've got more important things to do <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

He might even let you watch from his chambers................

Hey, good people can disagree.

Hell, we can even get mad and go at it harder than we would like. But disagreeing over an issue this close to home for a lot of people is no excuse to throw insults around and question the work ethic, or patriotism, or manliness of those on the other side.

Stick just cannot disagree over the smallest of issues without tossing out insults and demeaning explitives. The first time he ever posted to answer something I said he called me a 'goofy bastard' and threatened to whip me. I told him then that if we were face to face he'd never use that language on me. I returned the favor to him on my last post. He deserves it.

But that threat to whip me is laughable and juvenile. Something straight out of 6th grade. Some men never grow up. To take that fantasy into the realm of real life he'd need to grow in more ways than one. He's a soft little man with a loud disposition.

Will

If my job could be replaced by unskilled mexican labour I might be scared....
Union are not only no longer needed, but they are killing MFG in this country. Just ask GM and Ford why they cant compete with Honda and Toyota when both all are building vehicles in the US.

I've never been forced to dream,my Resume is overflowing with BT/DT's.

AK has no State tax,but I live where there is a Sales tax. You are consistent in your cluelessness and that do take some doing,I'm beginning to become impressed...see whatcha can do there,in your misguided ramblings.

Sounds like "danger" is your business. You mighta got grease on your hands once,scratched your eye and got a tear outta the deal. I'm on the edge of my seat,living vicariously through them exploits(give or take)...cyber hanky to you.

My Dad is a Taxidermist in the Lower 48,who never worked in Alaska,let alone in any of my Trades. I'm beginning to get more impresseder,as you are a delusional NutJob.

I'm not one to dry hump a Mouse Motor,but I've no doubt it's as close as you can get,to the real thing....................

I've never understood the mentality that one should have a guranteed job, be paid enough for all the needs/wants in life just because they've learned some skill, whether blue or white collar.

If you really want control over what's going on, then become one of those evil company owners. Then you'll get the thrill of really working hard, and having everything you own on the line to creditors and hopefully you can find folks willing to work for you.

Most of my experience with unions is OCAW, and never have I seen folks who make so much bitch about what little they have to do. When somebody makes $150k a year, for working 5 months on a 2 & 2 schedule and can only say what a-holes they work for, it's hard to have sympathy for them.

If your job sucks, the only thing keeping you from quitting, moving or taking up a new vocation is the guy that stares at you in the mirror.

This is exactly the impression I've gotten from the oil and chemical workers unions down here. The better you are at something, the more money you deserve. If you're lazy and incompetent, tough [bleep]. If you think you're company is mistreating you, go somewhere else. It's really pretty simple.

Most of the union guys posting here seem to work in construction.

Most of my experience with unions was with industrial unions in the northeast and mostly in the 1980s. I would be amazed if any member of the USW, UAW, URW (now defunct), IBT, or IUE back then would boast of working hard or working through lunch. Instead they would boast of sabotaging the company in one way or another. Then, when their company shut down or moved to Georgia to escape the union, they'd howl about how loyal they had been.

Do times change? I tend to doubt it. I cannot think of a single example of an industry in which there are a mix of unionized and union-free companies where the former aren't shrinking and the latter expanding.

And, in the few examples I know about, the union-free workers are very glad they are not herded into a union.

OK. Nothing I say has anything to do with construction unions in the NorthWest.

I just want to know is "Sticks" motor in his car makes more HP than my Bike?? Now my bike motor was engineered (Scott Shafiroff) for a flat TQ curve but still puts out a little over 700hp. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

~sigh~

Alaska has no STATE sales tax or income tax. See, that is the part the rest of the country pays for you. Pay attention, you're falling behind. Most of the rest of us have to pay a state sales tax and a state income tax plus all the county and municipality taxes. You get off easy courtesy of the pipeline the rest of us paid for and built.

As for your background and intro to the business, all I can say is pick a story and stick to it. Enough said on that.

With all due respect Stick, I could give you one of my engines and if you had to take it apart and reassemble it I would be shocked if it didn't lose 25 horsepower in the process. And it would just impress the hell out of me if it lasted through practice and qualifying without ventilating the block.

Since they started making me stand behind bulletproof glass during the pulls, danger has nothing to do with it. It's about knowhow, precision, and craftsmanship. But if we ever run into trouble we'll be sure and call you.

Will

Tis better to be thought of as an idiot then open your mouth and remove all doubt.................................

700 ponies,is more than my Toyotas can muster..............

Laffin' at you're [bleep] idiocy. Quit smokin' the rope man...it's twisting your [bleep] up.

"Righty-tighty/Left-loosey" may impress some,but I am not one.....................

You're full of [bleep]....

Don't take ALL the bait outta the water,damnit.(grin)

You in your office? Any trouble getting to work?.............

I'm in the office, no sweat on the commute. Back on 2/2 now...

Momma and her Boss,got hungchow on the Northbound,from 'South. Had to overnight an extry day,due to weather delays.

I'll catch you for a week then and we are back to overlapping,with you in the lead...................

I heard something about delayed flights, but paid more attention to what Bernice was pouring......

She is a doll.

Think I'll bring her some of Momma's fu-fu girly stuff she makes....................

She's had tentative plans to visit us a few times, but her schedule and ours weren't matching up. She lived in Paradise for a time, years ago...

Ill take that as a complement coming from some union hack.....

She's quite an Adventurer,I always pick her brain and she is fun to talk to.

Am thinking she'd love to slide over and fish,then see sights..........................

You might want to study up on the pipeline to see who paid for it, and who built it. Unless you had stock in the oil companies that paid for and built the pipeline, you didn't pay for the construction of it. If you do have such stocks, then you to have profited fromt the pipeline. Also the oil has a federal tax component, so you to enjoy the benefits of oil revenues.

Yes, amongst other reasons AK is a great place to live, we have no state income or sales tax, as the state had the foresight to use it's resources to fund the state, vs giving them away to make a few wealthy. We also don't yet have enough free loaders to where our resources don't pay for the state, but that might sadly come to an end.

If you don't want to pay state income and sales taxes, move.

Simpler, to say it the way I did.....grin.

WHAT is it,about you Alaskan guys,trying to take ALL my bait outta the water?!!?......................(grin)

Hey, I never said there was a thing wrong with getting the most out of your resources. Matter of fact I think that is a great idea. The problem is that old Stick and a few others seems to think it is only good when they do it and not when a group of craftsmen get together and do the same thing.

Neither he, nor you, nor the ever eloquent Brother Dave negotiated the taxes levied on all outgoing oil. That is something that the state as a group levies and the rest of us pay. Nothing wrong with it, just don't come in here with that high handed rugged individualist stance when the rest of us are paying your taxes for you.

I have three first cousins who live there and only one pays property taxes. From what I understand, that is usually reserved for those living in the cities and towns. And here I thought you boys were all livin' on the frontier. Fightin' grizzlies with one hand and reelin' in sockeyes with the other. And none of the three pay state sales tax or state income tax.

I said it before and I'll say it again: Stick needs to grow up. It's not all about Stick all the time. Not every argument is an excuse to threaten and cuss and belittle. And judging from all of the inbox messages I've gotten there are a bunch here at the Campfire who agree with me on this one regardless of their stance on unions.

If he isn't burying a good argument under an avalanche of posts he is picking a fight as an excuse to show us all of his pictures of trophies and rifles. Give it a rest, you don't have to be a braggart every day of your life.

Will

Calling many union members craftsman is a disservice to the word.

Right on...some bait remains.

Curious to know,what taxes the DSMFers are paying for me?

Would also enjoy a treatise on why your fuel,is cheaper than mine?

As to locale,them choices is easily made,after you've sniffed around the State a bit. That your kin is as mentally challenged as you,will suprise only you........................

Remains?

Hell you ain't took on a single argument yet. Gave your buddies a high five when they weighed in. Then dance around the ones you have no answer for and throw out some insults and profanity and move on.

Why don't you go ahead and post us some nice pictures of some of those trophies of yours? Maybe a couple nice ones of those guns you have with the cute names? That'll be sure and add a lot to the thread and convince everyone you're right.

Come on. We know you want to.

Will

Ooops...it ain't bragging,if you can do it.

What you may think is inordinate good fortune or inordinate "luck",is very mundane for many. When you use the lack of accomplishment and experience,of your Life as a static barometer to weigh happenings elsewhere....the slope gets very slickery and thus your complete loss of traction.

Long way of saying,don't get pissed at the World because you are mired in nothingness,frosted with a copious layer of cluelessness and are bragging about that predicament.

Stand up,clean yourself off and try again,before it's too late. You've only you,to cuss....................

You gotta say "PLEASE" for pictures.

I see I'm over 26,000 casts into the creek,peruse 'em for inaccuracies.

I happen to very much like the odds of my relative batting percentage,but I've the luxury of not commenting upon them things,I know nothing about.

Try it sometime...................

There we go. Some more bragging and insult pandering.

Come on! Do it! Show us all those pretty pictures and tell us all a bedtime story. Tell us about the one named Elanor uncle Stick. The pink one with the pretty little skull and crossbones on it!

We haven't seen that one or the pretty little blacktail with the brown antlers in at least 3 weeks.

Will

Cry for me.

Always was a sucker for tears...................

BS definately has a good thing going. He also tends to flaunt that.

I see alot of petty jelousy tends to come out of those that don't have that and really wish they did. I doubt it would be possible, but I wonder if the folks that hate BS could honestly say they aren't just a we bit jealous of him.

Since I'm not the jealous sort, I've learned quite a bit from BS, and would say what he says is spot on, if you can keep your panties from ruffling and getting bent out of shape in the presentation.

Just because someone comes across as pompous and knowing a bunch doesn't mean they don't know of what they talk about. If you want to learn, humble yourself and see if what they say jives with reality. If it does, then take what you want from that person.

Look at Donald trump, puffed up arrogant bastard, but he sure do know how to make a dollar. If you really care about making money like that, you'd be well advised to follow how he does it. If you just get hung up on him being arrogant, then you'll always have excuses of why you don't have what he does, while secretly desiring it.

Anyhow this all fundamentally comes down to whether you want to stand up for your own rights and doing whats best for you, or having others do it for you. So yes, those who aren't pro union just migh be rugged individualists. Those that say they can't get a fair shake on their loansome, well, it is what it is.

I'd say based on what I've heard from folks having homes built and remodeled, there is a killing to be made by the guy who can show up to work on time day after day, sober, and gets work done. A general handiman can charge $50+ an hour and have all the work he wants, a heck of alot of writeoffs as a business owner, and a schedule that allows one to fish on occasion. No, there won't be someone getting the work for you, and if your client isn't the easiest to work with, you'll have to deal with it vs filing a grievence.

Oh man.....NOW he's gonna cry like Tammy Faye!

Laffin'..................

Is there a line forming somewhere to get a refund on my property taxes?

Paid $104 for 100 acres in MO worth about 200-250K, and $400 for a 1/2 acre parcel here, that's worth 40K tops probably closer to 35K.

12 grand all told in property tax last year, but I ain't moving.

DSMF-er's no savvy the expense of living here.

I liken it as a barrier,that seperates the wanna-be's,from the doer's.

Penguin's tears,are genuine..................

Stick---Jezzzz cut the man some slack he may be constipated and backed up!! People tend to get very grouchy when that happens. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The slack is copious.

In retrospect,I'm trying to remember if there has been a Whining Bitchfest,that can hang with it?

Makes me wanna mail some cheese,to go along with his Whine.

Laffin'..............

OUCH . . . . . .

Direct hit . . . .

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

BMT

He struck out several times,on this Thread alone.

Mebbe we'll get extry innings and a fresh batter?............(grin)

Got to thinking at lunchtime, fresh air and good views tend to do that.

Anyhoo, if after 10, 15 or 20 years on a job you can be replaced by somebody with no skills who doesn't speak English, you should be! There's a world of difference between being on a job for 20 years, and gaining 1 years experience 20 fold, and gaining 20 years experience.

I'd say anyone who's been on a job 2, 3 or 5 years tops has had ample time to make their employer know exactly why you are a valued employee, and to compensate you well for being thus. If there aren't other companies trying to hire you away, either your industry is dead, or you haven't done your part to become a valued employee.

In any industry the level of competition is typically so low it's scary how easy it is to make it to the top. The basics are, show up on time, make sure you know who you work for and how to make them happy. If you can't make a deadline for a good reason, as soon as you know you can't make the date let the powers that be know in advance. Get a modicome of work done and know how your company makes money, and make money for them. I've yet to see how a union can benefit one in achieving that. Have often seen how folks with a good work ethic get pulled down by those that haven't.

Was telling 'Humper yesterday,about a conversation I had with my Boss,after the end of my first hitch was drawing near.

Boss asked me what I thought and I replied honestly...."I hope this job doesn't turn me into a piece of [bleep]!". He laughed and said that he thought I'd come out of it intact,with a good attitude and work ethic remaining.

Attitude has always come easily for me,because I was born with the glass half full. Having seen/done HARDwork in the firsthand,my relative scale is prolly jaded from most. I figure if you ain't dead or injured,then it was a very good day and the balance is water under the bridge.

I am not a bitcher nor complainer,though I've no qualm voicing an opinion in a fair manner,to right a wrong. Been knowed to stand my ground too.

Guys I work with now,think I'm a [bleep] Loon,because nothing bothers me. I figure a man shouldn't oughtta complain,about a paid vacation.(grin) Times fly,when you let it and it never don't feel good,to do a good job and that is reward enough,oftentime.

Many folks think they are OWED a job and that mentality escapes me...................

Lotsa folks have life by the balls, few are thankful for the fact. Even more folks could have same, if they'd just reach out and grab it.

Have plenty of bs to deal with in the office, like clients that never know what they want, constantly change their mind, and schedules that are in flux. Some folks get bent out of shape, I smile. If somebody is more than happy to pay me good money to take 6 months to do a job I could bang out in 2 weeks, (because it takes them 5 months and 2 weeks to figure out what they want) then I'll do my best to keep them happy.

When your boss gives you multiple raises in a year, and says if anyone gives you a better offer to let him match it, it's a good deal. When you get that better offer, tell your boss, and at the end of the day he's matched it plus 5k a year, with plans to kick it up again in the near future, you realize there is an incentive to be valuable to your employer.

I never was one that wanted his ass sucked,but it is nice to work for an Outfit that knows/appreciates good work.

My current Job,is saturated with genuinely GREAT folk and it is a superlative work atmosphere. Opportunity is boundless and all are eager to help.

A pleasure to boot up for a Brand,that conducts business in that manner..........................

Comming from an exspurt on compaction extraction..............

A few years ago i worked a Union job as a meat cutter, i hated that job but needed it until i could find something better. Co-workers would get pissed when I would stay and work to get things caught up cause they had to go on break. I don't always agree with BS but he's dead on with this thread. I've seen the union workers, complaining about going on break late and whining because they had to do a little extra because we were short handed. What is so hard about getting to work on time, doing the best job you possibly can and not complaing about it? I never did understand how people can complain when they have 4 weeks of vacation time, paid sick leave, raises just about every year and working only 8 hour days.......

I call it "Wiping Ass" and it's a term I coined,for work-ethic mindset.

Whenever I was running Crew(or working for myself/or for someone else)all that I simply asked,was that they made for CERTAIN,that their ass was wiped. That means,when you turn and walk away from a job that is completed,that all ducks are in a row.

Start at the "start" and the start is...to make sure that the last job is Ship Shape,before you take another bite of something else.

I'm the newest/greenest/dumbest guy on my Crew now,but I say often..."let's make sure our ass is wiped",before we tackle something new. Nothing more [bleep] frustrating for a Boss or Employer(I've been both),than to have to second guess the job's total completion. I don't want to be part of a Crew,that isn't held in esteem.

That being said,I've zero qualm staying late(or whatever),to wipe ass,whether it's mine or the Brand's collectively. I've never not taken pride in my work,because I believe simply,that a man's work should speak for itself. The Crew should take pride in it's collective effort,or all is moot.

Much of that,goes back to sweating for a living,when the pickings were tough and the physical requirements exceptionally demanding. Because all was based on production,I'd "wipe ass" either early in the work week,or early in the day,to bolster longterm dividends and quality.

I'd cut the hard [bleep] first,then savor a little coasting to the Finish Line,as a cookie of sorts. That may entail tackling some man-killing ground on Monday morn,or mebbe backing my strip into the shade,as the sun peaked over ridge tops in the afternoons. The tricks are numerous,the benefits always rewarding.

I never left myself an unwiped ass,unless I was whipped physically and knew in my heart of hearts,I was gonna need recharged batteries to live through the ordeal. That falls under "Discretion is the better part of valor" and do not hint at leaving things unfinished.

No secret...I miss the excitement and adrenaline rush of solving a man-killing puzzle,via athleticism and sharp thinkin',coupled with good tools. Doing what "can't be done" is just reward and Pride cain't be bought.

A good attitude is infectious,just as a good crew can run culls off,at a gallop.

Long way of saying,GOOD guys are always sought and command a premium....................

BS eh?

Yeah,..... that works,...

Thinkin' that anyone who questions Sticks work ethic is plum [bleep]' stoopid..........

I think that pretty much sums it up....

You have to be careful that when you reach a certain age that you are not wore plume out. Lots of things you can't do very well when you get some age on ya so you have got to keep adjusting. Eyes will be the first to go about mid 40's, back in the 60's, mind in the 70's. Someone else will have to speak of other things that leave you when you get old.

it might well be time to pull the plug on this thread..............

I think there is much to hard work,keeping a man fit,to a level which prolly betrays his years.

Like an OldBoy once told me..."some people,just die easy"..................

Just don't forget the Charmin.

It's too harsh,for most...they require WetOnes..........

That is wishful thinking. Any group of Mexicans could show up in AK and be cutting lumber or working wells in no time. It all depends on what you consider "no skills" and I am here to tell you that anything that does not require a college education is now becoming (as you put it), "a no skill job".

Being good at your skill has not a thing to do with the problem, all kinds of people who are not good are getting hired for less, but the company who hires the skilled is still putting a bid in against the company hiring the illegals.

Try doing it right, start your own thing, buy insurance, pay worker's comp on your guys, then compete against the guy who pays for none of it.

A whole lot of industry going dead as you put it. If you are ok with government tag teaming with business to replace the blue collar worker with cheap labor, I guess there isn't anything else I can say.

School is not for everyone, but in years past a hard worker could still make a decent living, those jobs are running out.

I would imagine AK will be the last to be hit, but I'm wondering if Stick knows if the lumber and fishing industry on Oregon is feeling the effects yet...if not yet, soon.

Pull the plug??? Is the truth that damn painful <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

My pards in Orygun,are doing better than ever.

We communicate often and none have seen a Wetback on a boat deck,nor in a strip.

I do not get the impression,that they fret Salsa Interventions....................

Stick

Sounds like your Pards need to get off the fishing boats!!!! Or what there is left of them <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> Hell the fishing industries been in the [bleep] for years in Coos County!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> And Mexicans are showing up left and right. Won�t belong and you will have some too!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

And as far as all the mills go around here the only ones left are the Union mills!!! I bet you would have never guessed that.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'll tell 'em all,to throw in the towel...while getting is good.

Laffin'.....................

Is that what you did!!! Wondered way you left�..

Laffin'

I'm pretty sure South Port is non-union...

Is the Trucculent Oyster,still serving Grub/Booze?

How's Cooter doing,on the river? He has a few my pics,on his wall and tell him I said "Hey!".

GOOD folk..................

Laffin'................

I like pourin' concrete with my amigos. We get along just fine.
BTW they ain't union.

Oh forgot about that tiny thing!!! But I believe Jimmy�s dock is Union!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The guy paying the high priced labor and benefits will often still be in business after the other has gone bankrupt three or four times.

It is tough to run a business when all your time is spent dealing with unsatisfied customers. It is tough to turn a profit when half your labor force is out doing rework and you're trying to train the other half faster than they move on to another job or get hauled off to jail. It is even tougher to get a repeat customer under those circumstances.

Paying lost time and workman's comp on injuries related to lowballing the labor pool is enough to bankrupt a company. Even the illegals have enough brains to figure out how to call a lawyer after they get injured on a job. A few of the lawyers even advertise "Habla Espanol".

Good help pays for itself, no matter what the job. And you gotta pay em enough to keep em around.

[/quote]

Good help pays for itself, no matter what the job. And you gotta pay em enough to keep em around. [/quote]

Good help period. Mexican or American, Union or not.

Good help pays for itself, no matter what the job. And you gotta pay em enough to keep em around.

That's exactly what the owner of our company said to me ten years ago, face to face; now? all he does is complain about competing with the low paying competitors...I know of three companies in my area that don't pay OT, in violation of labor law...and they're getting away with it because the illegals are afraid to speak up.

We are fast approaching the time when unions will be necessary once again to represent the illegals that are being exploited by some employers. As much as I am anti-illegal immigration, I say if the government isn't going to keep them out, I would rather they get representation so as to not ruin all the job markets.

Have worked for a variety of companies and industries. Top dogs always make money. They don't win every bid, but that's ok because not every customer will allow you to make a profit.

It really does folks good to realize everyone is an indepent contractor, and you gotta watch out for yourself. If you work where you can't make a living, move on to where you can. This day and age is no different than any other. Industries have always risen and fallen and moved with the times. No more buggy whip makers, and I'm sure many bitched about how they should be able to make buggy whips for the rest of their days.

I don't know the timber industry so can't say about how well illegals could break into that industry. In oil, doesn't matter what language you speak, if you know the gig you'll make it, if you're a dsmf'r, no matter how far south, you ain't going North. We have had some Canuck crews but I haven't seen them lately.

There's plenty of unqualified Alaskans that aren't allowed to play in the oil patch, for good reason.

As a Businessman,WHY wouldn'tcha exploit Illegals?!?

What other purpose,might they serve?...................

I'll tell you what I'm looking forward to seeing. When the government gives them all amnesty or work visas, and then the new batch of illegals shows up to undercut the old illegals, we gonna have the mother of all "wet-lines"

I simply await the $20 bounty.................

The problem with illegals is that when you get caught with them, you are out of your work force. Often times illegals are used to harvest perishable products. It is sort of a catch 22 as if they show you documents, you do not have much leeway in verifying them even if you so desired. They have rights you know.

Saw a Discovery Channel show on the cutting of the rain forests. Saw a whole bunch of high stumps with splinters on them like a Mohawk haircut. There is more to it than being able to start a chain saw. I'm thinking fellers are safe for awhile.

I dunna know...oh yea its illegal...productivity goes up...wages continue to fall....a CEO makes 300 times an average worker.......oh well. Illegal aliens/imigration really is a red herring...until their in your community. People seeking a better way I understand...but they need to sign the guest book.
They're headed your way...
Laffin...

They couldn't take the weather/conditions,let alone the Locals.

Can't know how'd they get here,even if they was dumb enough to try. It's a purty rugged walk and a right unhandy swim.

As to Free Enterprise Exec's salaries? More power to 'em...................

Stick

You underestimate the Mexicans there worst than roaches they adapt very well� They will be there before you know it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You may be right about the locals <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> But they do just fine here in the mud puddle. No offense...but you will see em' soon. They are very stoic, resilient, and smart. They follow the money too.......All qualities I admire (just sign the damn guest book).
With regard to free enterprise I agree, some are just freer than others I guess <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

You snooze you loose, I'll be moving when the bounty hits $18.50...
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

What does that show queen top out at? Maybe 140? I gotta sleeper in my shop that will run just shy of 190 and a hot rod Harley that went 9.18 @ 143 MPH in the quarter.This year we will have it in the high eights.

Most of the illegals here in WA came to pic crops on the dry side or plant/thin trees on the wet side of the state. The jobs that I see them doing are jobs that wouldnt be filled by locals anyway. I dont know about the rest of the country but here you cant find a legale resident thats willing to do alot of the crappy low paying jobs.
I dont think Paradise is in much trouble of beeing over run with illegals, there isnt enough work for them to make the trip.

Jamie

See. Nothing of substance. Tossing insults without knowing one damned thing about me or my life. It's the only thing you can do, you haven't answered a single point I made and further there is no answer to the point that you threaten, cuss, and insult instead of argue. Nor to the one that you bury good threads with copious posts that add nothing to the argument.

You're a bore. Your 5th grade level english skills spread over about 6 pages of inane chatter killed one of the best threads we've had here all winter. You killed it and I'm done with it.

You want to see my accomplishments? Watch SportsCenter, we'll lift a few this year.

Will

The Owner makes 300 times more because we are in a Capitalist society. If somebodyelse told an owner that he could only make 10% more or the same as every worker we woould be a socialist society. I wish more CEO's and Owners made a million times more than their employees.....gives you something to strive for...

Probably less than 12% in my home town now. Years ago it was a thriving community where many folks had decent-to-very good unionized factory jobs. Very little unemployment and crime.

About twenty years ago the factories folded up their tents and went elsewhere after years of strikes and unreasonable labor demands. Now the folks that were bitching that they were "only" making $20 hr. at that time are working at Wal Mart or bagging groceries...if they are lucky.

The town has really gone downhill due to high unemployment; comfortable and clean middle-class neighborhoods are now crack houses, and gang members control street corners in some areas. I believe that most folks want to work and these people would if there were still decent jobs in town.

But the unions took care of that. They got too greedy and stupid, straying far from their original good purposes of years past.

djmbow says:

Hurray...........finally some common sense prevails!

Only took 383 posts, but we finally got here.

TBaker5390, I think you slammed it my friend.

Good going!

Seems simple to me....a Socialist looks @ the CEO making a ton more than him and whines and calls unfair...unjust... damnet he should be as miserable as me....A Capitalist looks @ the same CEO and says Damn lucky Bastid and then strives to achieve the same!

I've lived in N.California,Western Orygun and Western Washington,as well as Alaska.

There are simply zero options here,for a boatload of Wetbacks,because the work scene is night/day different.

Housing costs,food/fuel costs,travel costs and the like,tend to nip such things in the buds. There are no homeless bums here either,because the pickings are far better/easier,in most every other locale. As is the weather.

We've no fast food chains,no laundry service,no paint shops,no mechanic shops,no agricultural crops to pick/harvest and are largely insulated,for them reasons too.

Now is it plausible that the Resident Commercial Fishing "fleet",is gonna be giddy to hire Wetbacks for a coupla months of summertime Salmon Pickin'?!? I'd have to wager "no".

Is there likely to be a surge in Charter Operators,trying to outbid eachother for Wetbacks steeped in the knowledge of the local waters and local fish haunts,to man their $100K+ vessels at the helm,on their ventures? I can't see that happening either,because some Chimichanga in the driver's seat,is gonna cause word to spread like Wild Fire and word of mouth is about all it takes,to bust a business of that type.

Are Wetbacks gonna band together,teach themselves to Cut Timber,run equipment,change roads,drive truck,get a powder license/drill & shoot and overtake the Operators that have lived here and started/run those ventures? Nope.

Are the Wetbacks gonna overtake the Forest Circus and Post Office and send those gents packing,with their arrival? Nope.

Do the local Teachers set on pins and needles,fretting Wetbacks bumping them outta their jobs? Nope.

There's much beauty,to the inner workings of a small/quaint Community,insulating itself from many things.

Hate to burst them bubbles,but that's how the ball bounces......................

'guin,

Retreat is your best move,as per always and at least you've that figured out.

You're learnin'.......................

Unions lead to crap like this....
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,248903,00.html

"I'd say anyone who's been on a job 2, 3 or 5 years tops has had ample time to make their employer know exactly why you are a valued employee, and to compensate you well for being thus. If there aren't other companies trying to hire you away, either your industry is dead, or you haven't done your part to become a valued employee.

In any industry the level of competition is typically so low it's scary how easy it is to make it to the top. The basics are, show up on time, make sure you know who you work for and how to make them happy. If you can't make a deadline for a good reason, as soon as you know you can't make the date let the powers that be know in advance. Get a modicome of work done and know how your company makes money, and make money for them. I've yet to see how a union can benefit one in achieving that. Have often seen how folks with a good work ethic get pulled down by those that haven't."

That is actually some very good stuff.

My wife worked her ass off for over thirty years at a very hard job. Now that she's retired, though, she's getting it back... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, but as a shareholder in a bunch of different companies I disagree with what CEOs are making. It is a good old boy network with little room at the top and many competent +P, educated and hard working individuals ready to take their places and do a better job. But they will not ever get a chance and if they do will be corrupted into the system immediately. (Hint they are there waiting for the chance for a reason!)

When failing companies losing money at Niagra speeds pay bonuses to CEOs it should be considered theft. As a shareholder I do not see my money being used to its full potential when reward is not based on performance. When it gives employees the option of pointing a finger at management and legitamately crying foul it only makes it harder for my money to make money for me.

These jerks are NOT the capitalists, they are just the strongest parasites.
art

p.s. I don't know you, I don't know anybody named Bulletbutt, and I've never heard of this forum...

So, after 393 posts over 12 pages (on my setup), are the unions down to 11% yet?

They are gonna pass the coffer,strike for a spell,then retally.

You'll have results,in about 8 months................

Not sure how your bad investments has anythig to do with Unions but if your trying to say that the actions of a few bad CEO's should lead us down a path that we should put limits on what Owners pay themselves or their CEO's then it is the same argument that Anti gun people make when the actions of criminals should dictate what legal gun owners can/cannot have.
Life is a lot easier when your not jealous of others.

I don't know where you been but .... Mexican labor has been on the Island for many years !!!! Who do you think is doing the thinning for the USFS and the corp lands? And the tree planting several years ago. Some of those guys have even stayed and now call the Island home. I remember several Mexicans on riggen crews I worked on over the years. It's common to have Mexicans on logging crews in ID, MT, CO, NM, CA, So OR and AZ also. One of my cousins side-rodded logging crews back in the late '60's in CO and those crews were almost all Mexicans.

But I've also logged with Natives, Oregonians, Washingtonians, New Yorkers and even a black or two !!!!!!!

Wrangell imported Mexican labor for their cannery like over 10 or 12 years ago. Ketchikan had to do the same thing in recent years.

Ed Head hired a few back in the day and more quickly followed. At one time I would imagine that almost half the Mill workers were from East LA and Chula Vista. Some of those guys stayed and heaven forbid are now property and business owners and have grand kinds in town. I'm sure you have even used some of their services.

You know I even picked up an east Indian or Arab lady (dressed like Muslem to me, and knew very little english) and her young daughter on the way to the ferry, after their car broke down, not long ago.

Your locale and mine,is night/day,as is Colorado and other States mentioned.

The Thinners ain't Illegals,I have talked with them and had them working next to several Log Camps I was in. We often brought them to town,helped with the logistics of both grub and gas,as well as made booze runs for those boys.

Saw a Thinner yesterday on some Native holdings and it was the same local gent,who seems to win all the bids he can drive to,less being away from home in Camp. He's been doing that,since I first came here and typically works solo. I never liked splitting scale,either.

A Cannery 12 years ago in Wrangell,is moot,as is all pertaining to Ketchikan.

Which is/was my point,obviously.................

All the following is your 'locale' and I would say that a chance of some being 'Illegals' is more than good.

There here !!!!!! Oh and we have had 'in your locale' area 'homeless bums' .....

"But I've also logged with Natives, Oregonians, Washingtonians, New Yorkers and even a black or two !!!!!!!
Ed Head hired a few back in the day and more quickly followed. At one time I would imagine that almost half the Mill workers were from East LA and Chula Vista.
Mexican labor has been on the Island for many years !!!! Who do you think is doing the thinning for the USFS and the corp lands? And the tree planting several years ago."

I mentioned numerous times,"illegal aliens/Wetbacks". Not folks with a tan,who are here legally,as that is moot to me and the tally on them,modest at best,if such things trouble you.

I know this is going to be tough for you to follow,but Ed Head is no longer in business,in the capacity mentioned and today is not then. Won't trouble you,with them obvious correlations.

Also mentioned,that I know the Thinners who work outta town,in several of the abandoned Camp sites. While some wore tans,none to my knowledge were Illegals and again,that is/was the crux.

The USFS Thinners I talked to yesterday(locale seperate,obviously,from the aforementioned gent on the Native tract),were driving a USFS vehicle,with USFS 4-wheelers in the back and were whiter than I,as well as direct USFS Employees.

'Course,I'm plagued continually,with the luxury of not being forced to guess.

Try it sometime....................

Son,

Where the hell have you been? We have been a socialist society for a long, long time! Since Franklin Roosevelt, anyway! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Now e are a politically correct socialist society! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Sadly we are, to some extent.

AMEN!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

TBaker
While my response has nothing more to do with unions than your comments, I felt a need to respond.

Nothing said my investments were/are bad. I simply pointed out the fact the good old boy club is stealing from corporations and by extension, stockholders. That is where I come in. Jealousy has nothing to do with it, either, as I retired from day jobs at 48, almost three years ago.

Equating CEOs performing poorly for their shareholders with gun control is a ridiculous stretch. And I also said nothing about a few bad CEOs. By definition, half perform below average. Huge golden parachutes for failed CEOs is a waste of MY money as I am an owner.

Again, I am the capatalist and the CEO is my thieving employee (in cahoots with my board of directors). No relation to jealousy, unions nor gun control.
art

No sir. To a LARGE extent! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Some people do not realize the stockholders are the OWNERS! And quite often cannot control what the board and CEOs do, and STEAL! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

So you are in favor of making laws that tell companines how much they can pay their CEO? how about their CFO? or their CTO?

No. Not at all. The less government the better! I thnk shareholders need to take back the control they once had over the CEOs! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Quite a few of these bastids need FIRED! And not let go with millions of dollars in golden parachutes either! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Congress was supposed to provide for the common defense and
control interSTATE commerce. They have abused their power
by sticking their noses into anything else! Therefore, 99% of our laws are unconstitutional! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

What do you mean by "companies paying their CEOs?" By "company", do you mean the owners? Which is the shareholders.

The board of directors and the CEOs set these figures for themselves, and therefore they are STEALING from the owners
as it is done without consent! They go about appointing each other to the boards of the companies. That is what Art mean by the CLOSED, good ole boys club!

It is a corrupt system, much like our government!Those who mare supposed to "be in control" actually have little say.
We are supposed to be governed by the CONSENT of the governed. You don't believe that we do that in this country?

You want to see my accomplishments? Watch SportsCenter, we'll lift a few this year.


How would we know when we are seeing your accomplishments, will you be wearing a 24hr hat?

There is another down side to those insane and obscene multimillion $ salaries, as well as setting prices on the finished goods high enough to make the stockholders a huge profit on their investment.

The stage is often set for somebody else to come in willing to make the same product for a tenth of the margin, knowing full well he is still going to get rich.

Profit taking should not be regulated by law. But wise management knows their company will have a greater life expectancy if it is held to a reasonable level.

This is just as much the reason for Detroit's present condition as are union demands.

Idaho_Shooter says:

"The stage is often set for somebody else to come in willing to make the same product for a tenth of the margin, knowing full well he is still going to get rich."

djmbow says:

Hmm..........and what would we call this?

"Capitalism" perhaps..........?

Yes absolutely!

Do not misunderstand me, I think capitalism is the greatest thing going. That does not change the fact that a manager is a damn fool if he prices his product or allows quality to slip in such a manner that he can be driven out of business by another who is still making a decent profit.

So exactly what is your explanation of union demands you find objectionable?

Barkoff, absolutely not. Get fired for pulling a stunt like that. Plus we make it a point not to have the guys designing and building them at the track any more than is necessary, leads to alcoholism and divorce. Go to some but only when I need to do a little spying. The only reason I mentioned it was that a certain chronic masturbator seems to have this idiotic notion that everyone here is jealous of him and his lifestyle. Ridiculous.

280don, that is one of the best points that has been made since we got buried under flight plans, cocktail waitresses, bonechilling tales of danger in the Yukon, and racist rhetoric. I myself own quite a bit of shares in american companies and I am glad to say it is not usual in the ones I invested in.

But it is very telling that so many of our elites are very selective when they actually like competition and the market. There is a bill being introduced this week by Charles Rangel, God give us strength, that will make it the stockholders responsibility to approve CEO compensation. Why in the world did that have to come from the democratic party? Take a look at the money and all becomes clear. Now that is sad.

And while we're on the subject of when we like markets and when we don't, the same line of reasoning will tell you exactly why free market republicans are so intent on seemingly destroying the manufacturing base in this country. It is easy to get filthy rich by investing in foreign companies who do not compete on an even playing field and are practically guarenteed to increase stock price geometrically. They start worth very little and become very valuable at a fast rate. And Wall Street has made billions on it at our expense.

Same with our insane immigration policies. Again, Phyllis Schafly had a very strongly worded article on Bill Gates and his crocodile tears performance in front of congress recently about needing technically proficient immigrants. We have a ton technical workers ready to go to work right now, he just doesn't like paying what the market demands.

Unions are not the reason manufacturing has gone offshore. Hell, North Carolina has been absolutely decimated by outsourcing in the last 5 years. And to the best of my knowledge they weren't union as a rule and did not make extravagent wages. The men and women of these plants were just collateral damage. Wall Street and their puppets in congress had a vested interest in seeing new companies worth very little get the work and become very valuable almost overnight. After their growth stagnates they'll unload the stock on the rest of us and move on to new areas and do the same thing.

Will

Spencer Abrahams (D MI) pushed heavily to import engineering students to MI from 3rd world nations to eliminate a percieved shortage. We had college graduates who couldn't find a decent job at the time. What he didn't say was that the foriegn engineers were willing to work for wages equal to that of a manager at Burger King. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

There is a bill being introduced this week by Charles Rangel, God give us strength, that will make it the stockholders responsibility to approve CEO compensation. Why in the world did that have to come from the democratic party?


Wow....the logic differences between us is huge!!! You want the government to make new laws that fight capitalism. As an investor I doubt that you own a majority stake in anything so you are more like an employee than an owner. If the management is doing something you don't like mover your investment.....shareholders show their disapproval everyday this way. I have alot invested in many companies and I have never fretted what management did...if the investment did not perform well, I moved the investment.

TBaker5390: I do not see this law as a fight on capitalism. It is merely giving the power of the purse to the owners of the company and taking it away from a select group of company elites. That ~is~ capitalism my friend.

By your logic Teddy Roosevelt would have had no standing to interfere with the monopolies that plagued this country early in the last century. Wall Street has shown itself to be just as capable of corrupting the markets as congress ever was.

AJ, aint that a fact. And it is why you have trouble getting american kids to major in engineering now. They've seen the profession attacked and few want anything to do with it. Easier to become a lawyer.

Will

No since arguing with someone who thinks more laws is a good idea.

It's a stretch to think being a shareholder is truly the same as being an Owner...

Also a stretch, to think most shareholders are qualified to say anything about a prospective CEO coming onboard.

Shareholders simply have a right to sell their piece of the pie, for the going rate, whenever they like.

And that's what they should do, if they don't like the CEO/CFO/COO crap of the company.

EXACTLY!!!!!Don't need the Government involved anymore than they already are!

I saw this the other day and was going to weigh in but though the better of it since I know how most of you feel about Unions and that is fine, because a little of it is true. But then I got to thinking, hey they are talking about me.
I started working for a Labor Union when I was 18, and before I really understood the politics of Unions. I point out that I work for an International HQ, not just some union job, so I can't speak to how people behave on their Union jobs at the factory type thing. But I can say that I work DAMN Hard for my money and if anything I am UNDERPAYED for what I do, but with the Insurance and my wifes health problems it will be hard for me to leave. I just wanted to get that off my chest. So don't put some damn lazy union worker lable on me, and set around and feel superior.
Now lets talk about Lazy. I built my house that I live in now in 2005, and I contracted out a lot of small business men types to do the work. Guys that were Proud that they worked "for themselves" and did not go to a "job" everyday. These same Barneys could not work for me for one damn week! Most of them were the lazyest sons of B&%$es on the planet. I had to beg half of them to come out and finish the work. How they make a living with the work ethic I saw is beyond me. What is more sickning is the fact that they want to "get rich" everytime they leave the house. I payed one guy 2500 to clear a peice of land 12ft wide and maybe 250ft long. That was labor mind you, I payed another 2400 to have the brush hauled off! Another guy wanted 2500 to seed and straw my yard! No thanks I can do that in 2hrs by myself, And I did! Half of them want to stand around and talk half the day or complian that they have to drive 30mins to go get some materials, so they wont be back until tomorrow. What a joke. I found out that most of these minions are in business for themselves not because they "won't" work for anyone else, but rather they "COULDN'T" They would not last a week, actually being responsible for real work. All I Know is that I can retire in a little over 10 years and I will be in my late 40's. I will then go to work for myself and make A LOT of Money. I know this because the compitition is incompetent. Good day.

A good guy can go anywhere,that remains a constant.

As to your issues on the home...that's tidily nipped,when you savvy both sides of the equation and factor a bid in accordance,that's sealed via contract.

No different than haggling guns...................

If you think those "minions" are making a couple grand per day, and you "could" easily out perform them, then what (aside from fear) is keeping you in your office ? Insurance you say, $40,000 per month will buy a lot of insurance, heck you could probably buy a nice Doctor with a couple of nurses for that.............

Maybe those guys new a Union sucker when they seen one and treated you accordingly, after all, they did get away with it right ?

Big Stick,

I hear what you are saying. The problems that I ran into were becuase I didn't have a builder that I could go blame or complain to, I was acting as the builder. So the problem was with the contractors. Now I knew a lot of these guys and some were even friends (former friends) so a lot was done on a handshake, thats just how I am. I can't complain too much, the work got done, and most of them were reasonable. But a couple were real ass holes. My biggest problem was that I felt like I had to hold there hand all they way to get them to finish the work, in a timely fashion. No contract in the world was going to make them more competent. I will never hire anyone I know again. Next time I will be the a-hole, with a signed contract & "lawyered up" up front. But that is such a sad commentary on the people of this country.

Good workers do good work, crappy workers do crappy work. It's one of the downsides of being an employer.

My co-worker is having a re-model done and has a sorry ass crew doing the job.

I generally do all my own upgrades at home. Not so much to save a buck, but to have the job done right.

I did have the roof done last year, factoring in my time and weather, the $2500 I'd save in labor wasn't worth it. Had a couple guys come out to bid the previous year. I was very impressed with one guy and not all impressed with the other guy. Gave the guy that impressed me the job, and his crew go the whole job done in one long hard day. There are some guys out there that know how to work hard and get a job done.

It helps to be able to decipher those who know their chitt from those that are full of chitt. I deal with plenty of the latter at work.

Brother Bill is trimming 7-08 hulls and I'm making coffee...I reckon that makes me the bitch.(grin)

I understand your predicament and I'm slow to go through legal hoops,but on something like a home,it is cheap insurance,so as to protect a long term investment.

I'm very hip on the notion of "piece work",but wouldn't be too hip on perusing bids upon a project,that wasn't something WELL known to me. I'd defer that to someone more steeped,in my own best interest.

Have done lotsa business via handshake and a Dinner drink and have never been wronged,nor done someone else wrong and that is my favorite way to conduct business. I like to look someone in the eye,allow them likewise and get a feel for the deal.

I've zero qualm paying good money,for good work,if only because I do not work cheap myself...................

Brother Dave
Cannot agree with you there... Shareholders are the owners in every sense of the word. Problem for them is the manipulations the board can run them through [color:"red"] with sanction from the huge shareholders in financial institutions. [/color] Without the colaboration it would not be possible.

I can agree shareholders would know little about a prospective CEO, though they are called upon at every election to approve the board members on an individual basis.

The other obvious problem is the fact most investors properly distribute their risk by distributing their investment in mutual funds. Watering down their strength and playing into the hand of the next round of prospective board members at the financial institutions.

There does come a point when the monies paid far exceed any possible benefit to the company. Collectively they have been abusing the system at an escalating rate. I hate the concept of government regulation, but the other answers would be? Moving on with your money simply puts you in the same situation with a different board... And in an impossible situation with funds.
art

I kinda figured you didn't agree with that take....grin.

I've come to feel that rather than being an Owner in any sense of the word, owning shares gives you nothing other than the opportunity to ride the company's value up and down. You share the joy, or you share the pain.....all you own is a ticket on the ride.

Unless a significant amount of shares is owned, shareholders have little (effectively zero) say in anything. Get to the point where someone owns enough shares that their voice or their vote counts, and they're at the level where they are putting those boardmembers on the board....they're part of the problem.

Much more than even politics, when it comes to these elections....it truly does not matter whether you or I, as shareholders, even vote....

The CEO is merely accepting the offer, and taking the cash that's due him. Who wouldn't? You accept an offer, you take the cash...

Yep!
I bought a ticket on Worldcom and rode it all the way to the bottom!

If a union goes on strike for a 10% annual wage increase when the employer lost money over the last fiscal year, it is not only management which are damn fools.

When a guy sits beside an assembly line and tightens the same nut on the same bolt all day, every day, knowing full well any sixth grader could do the job as competently as he, and he expects to be paid thirty bucks an hour to do so, I find that objectionable.

When a guy leaves for every break ten minutes early, comes back ten minutes late, and expects to be paid thirty minutes overtime because he hit the time clock at 5:05 instead of 5:00, I find that objectionable.

When a coworker or a subordinate bitches at me because I worked though every one of my breaks including lunches this week, but I made sure he never missed a break. I find that objectionable.

When I hear a union rep blaming the employer for everything wrong in his life and whining because he is not making twice the wage; when he is not earning half of what he is already getting, I find that objectionable.

With all these objections stated, I will stand beside my earlier statement that the unions I have been party to have been more positive than not.

You are very mis-informed......................



Your gonna have to tell me what year this happened. UAW hasn't hasn't struck against GM in years, the last strike wasn't over wages.



Production employees pay is less than $30.00 an hour. Their job entitles a heck of a lot more than tightening one bolt.




Management enters an employees workspan into a computer. Time is stopped at 5:00 weather the employee punches out at the exact minute or not. Guy can bitch all he wants. How is it the union's fault when the guy is an idiot? A commiteeman isn't gonna file a grievence over some trivial bullsh!t like your example.

So it's the unions fault that management isn't doing their job insuring their employees are at their work area before and after break times. Get a grip.




Sounds like a personal choice to me. YOU made sure he never missed a break. I don't get a paid lunch, it's my free time. If an issue should arise and my boss asks me to work through lunch they generally offer to give me a paid lunch.

Some jobs are labor intensive, there's reasons for breaks even if you fail to see the rational behind them.

I am no more informed of the inner working of your union than you are of mine. My first comment about $10/hr was admittedly a gross generalization about some self destructive unions, but about none in particular.

You should go back and read my earliest posts in this thread.

The rest of my comments in this last post were about the particular union I work in, and about those individuals within it who feel entitled and really should have been replaced years ago.



Nope, it is the union member's fault. That is what I was referring to in most of my post. The individuals within this union.

Every workforce has a few bodies who are right on the ragged edge of being more trouble to keep than they are worth. Some of them abuse every privilege and then get bent out of shape when asked to give a little bit back.



Neither do I get a paid lunch. That does not mean that I can not see when skipping lunch to take care of a little backlog is not beneficial to the organization. That is my choice, I certainly do not involve management in that decision. Nor do I inform them of it, or of when I need to stay fifteen or thirty minutes late to take care of business which comes up at the last minute.

I get paid good money for the job I do, and the company has always treated me well. I sure am not going to get excited if I need to give them a half hour once in a while to streamline the operation and maybe save two hours of lost time some where else.

Nor do I ask my subordinates ( I have worked as a foreman of a crew of twenty five for many years) to ever miss a break. I will relieve them on the production line if needed to make sure they get every allotted break time.

What does burn my butt is when that subordinate comes back from break and is incensed that I kept production moving and made money for the company in his absence.

It also burns my butt that my peers on the workforce are bothered by my work ethics and abusive for it. My work habits are none of their concern. No one is asking them to work through their breaks or lunches. No one is asking them to match the productivity of my crew.

Guess thats where you and I differ.

My work area is right next to our electricians coffee area. No one ran my machine on days so the electricians enjoyed peace and quiet on their breaks. I was transfered to day shift a little over a year ago. I'll run my machine into breaks or lunch if I'm rushed to get a part out or if it's near the end of the machining cycle. The first time it happened I had a few electricians whining about the noise. They were informed in a less than pleasant voice that this is a machine shop, if they want quiet they know where the cafetera is.

I don't find it hard to ignore some fool griping about my work ethics. Tell someone who gives a chit <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

and piss ignorant to boot.....

he was union.....

john,

Are you by chance,a Chink?

Just curious..............

I'm drunk and that is still as funny as chinkt

no, stick...

i'm not....

been catching up a little tonight... been out of town/ out of touch for a few days... have followed some of your posts & a few of your rants...

i care not about your view of the unions... truth is, they need work... i feel like i'm up to it... i feel like they are worth it....

fact of the matter is that you are a big share of the life of the fire... the fire will be a little colder without you....

a lot of guys end up on my ignore list for a time....
usually they have put up a pic that warps my screen, and distorts a thread til it's hard to follow...
i check their pic out and put them on ignore to restore order to the thread... on another thread i'll see that they've posted, and i wanna see it so i take them off the ignore list...

i've spent time on 3 continents and central america... i've found damned little reason to ridicule anyone for where he was born or who his parents were.... {arkansas jokes aside}

only once before have chosen to ignore a poster permanently... based on the tone of his comments...



mostly irish, stick... originally from arkansas... feel free to have fun with it....

so long partner..... john w

Are you bitching,or bragging?

Thanks for clarification...................

Larry:

Call it a career.

Goodbye.

Rick

Rick are saying that big stick is no longer a member here at the fire??????????????