http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/vaccine-deniers-abuse-appeal-authority/

A Facebook friend posted an article today, based on a paper by Peter Doshi, a well-known anti-vaccine activist. The article claimed to show proof that the flu vaccine doesn't work, and that it's "dangerous". If you were convinced by that article, or others like it, you should read THIS article, which gives some perspective on Dr. Doshi, who is neither a Medical Doctor nor a research scientist. His "specialty", if you can call it that, is akin to that of an art critic in the art world. He can't "do", but he can sure criticize, and because there are no standards for being a critic, he is not accountable.

Yet he and other vaccine deniers, AIDS-deniers (of which he is also one!), and other self-proclaimed "experts" get national and international publicity for their whacko assertions. (Thanks a lot, Internet!) Doshi would be laughed out of the cafeteria at the NIH if he espoused his well-debunked "theories" there, but since there is no editorial control of the 'Net, scientifically ignorant folks can tout his stuff as if it actually has some credibility.

The plain fact about the annual flu vaccine is this: the overwhelming consensus of medical doctors & researchers, public health authorities and Infectious Diseases specialists is that the high rate of influenza vaccination over the past 20 years has been a true success and has saved lives and has done so with exemplary safety. As a primary care physician on the frontlines of disease diagnosis and treatment over that time frame and longer, I can personally attest to this medical fact. I get a flu vaccine every year, I give it to my patients, and I encourage all the people I care about to get their Fluvax every fall.
Read this article.

Don't get duped by a blind man into gouging your own eyes out.

Unfortunately many people have not witnessed the crippling affects of polio, mumps, measles, rubella, and small pox. Vaccines have helped millions of people. I think we have too much free time on our hands and are constantly searching for a great evil to fight.

I've had flu shots for years. I haven't seen
a down side to them.

Doc,
What about these anecdotal stories we hear from time to time about severe negative side effects? The most recent that I stumbled across were in regards to HPV vaccines. Are these real for a small percentage or just coincidental? Thanks.

I visit another website (which I won't name, but its name is a little bit like gun breakers...) mostly for laughs. It's a hotbed of conspiracy nuts, anti-vaccine types, and espousers of all things whackjob.

I've tried, but there's no way to convince those mental midgets that vaccines aren't a plot against humanity. It wouldn't bother me that some of them will learn the hard way, but the travesty is that their children may suffer through their parents' idiocy.

As long as a vaccine doesn't affect us like flouride does....just sayin'

Doshi needs to contract influenza just once......and he'll change his tune. I'm talking about real influenze, and not one of the other myriad of other virus that roll around each Winter that people get and say they have "the flu".

Fever, body aches, high fever, sweats, debilitating fatigue and a week in bed is the best that can happen. The real "flu" is no joke. Watching a loved one suffer through it will make you think reall hard about the benefits of vaccines.

That's all a Communist plot!

No vaccine is 100% effective, nor 100% "safe". Adverse reactions, although rare, are real and do occur. Whether a specific case is a true reaction or is a coincidence has to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

FWIW, most primary care docs don't have the expertise to identify a true adverse reaction, except in cases where the patient has an anaphylactic reaction to the shot within 20-40 minutes. If somebody has an adverse health event 12-24 hours or more after receiving an immunization, the cause is in serious doubt and can only be pinpointed by experts.

Going on two years ago, my mom took her last flu vaccine. That's because doctors have barred her from taking another, since the last one she took paralyzed her from the waist down. After much rehab, she can still barely walk with a cane. She has recently switched back to a walker. Before her paralysis, she was amazingly active and agile for her age, getting around like an average sixty year old, despite being eighty. There are real dangers associated with it, which magnify with the frequency with which you take it.

I think the part of problem is that the Medical Community don't accept that soemtimes they get things very, very wrong.

I believe it is now thought that start of widespread polio and small pox vaccinations helped to spread AIDS and HEP A across West Africa.

This was not down to any sinister conspiracy, but rather due to poorly trained "medical workers/volunteers" re using dirty/contaminated needles and other equipment...

Gee. I guess my dad, a practicing internist since about 1960, was wrong all those thousands of times he's diagnosed influenza in his patients and family members.

Pete... FWIW, the AIDS epidemic came along well after the greatest push of smallpox and polio vaccination in Africa. Hep A is spread by fecal-oral contamination (human fecal contamination of drinking water), not by dirty needles.

That's not to say that poor medical hygiene doesn't play a role. The first known Ebola outbreak WAS due to nurses in central Africa re-using non-sterilized needles/syringes, the big Zaire Ebola outbreak in 1995 was greatly amplified by non-sterile surgeries, and the current west African outbreak has been amplified by non-sterile medical procedures as well.

Unfortunately, we (the global community) have failed to provide the funding for even the most basic public health measures in Africa, which would include things like public sanitation and safe drinking water, let alone autoclaves to sterilize re-usable syringes and needles and operating room equipment.

Hawk, as usual your posts on this thread (like all immunization topics) are irrelevant, short-sighted, personally biased, and lacking even a shred of scientific fact. Thanks for sharing.

...it's the flouride Doc...

<sigh>

In McCoy's voice: "He's brain-dead, Jim! I'm a doctor, not a miracle-worker!!"

Each vaccination is a dice roll. You may argue as to how many sides there are on the dice, but the high number comes up from time to time, and with devastating effect. I just think you folks shouldn't be so actively suppressing that information. People have a right to know.

No.

It's the International Banking Cartel. They stand to make billions from an Ebola outbreak. They're already racking up huge profits manufacturing supplies in response to the crisis.

No one is "suppressing information", dumbass! The very fact that Doshi's garbage is given ink in reputable medical journals is proof of that!

However, the OVERWHELMING preponderance of actual peer-reviewd medical journal articles based on actual peer-reviewed research REFUTE Doshi's claims!

As the article I cited points out, it's the vaccine-deniers who want to suppress information, and do so with great vehemence on their websites. They ridicule people like Dr. Paul Offit, who as one example supports influenza vaccination and whose rotavirus vaccine has demonstrably saved HALF A MILLION children's lives worldwide.

How right you are, Doc. Mycoplasms, parainfluenza, respiratory syncytial virus, rhinovirus, and even Legonella can all give flu like symptoms. Without serologic confirmation, it is easy to tell the patient they have the flu or a flu like virus, especially if the treatment is the same. Patient goes home, rests, pumps the fluids, recovers, and assumes they had "the flu".

Some strains are more virulent and violent than others. People old enought to remember and to contract the 1969 strain of "Hong Kong flu" will attest that was a nasty SOB that I wouldn't wish on even Hawk.

Yep. I wonder how many hundreds of cases of mild fever and upset stomach an ER Dr sees in a hospital like Presby per month.

CDC is the govt group who spent 7 mo getting ready for Ebola. How many docs were specifically trained in its early detection, for those who are critical of the handling of the Duncan case.

I bring this up realizing this thread is not dedicated to Ebola, but with respect to the fact it is touching on diagnostic accuracy.

I don't know about Dallas Presbyterian, but in my little ER in BFE west Texas gastroenteritis has been the number one diagnosis for the past 2 weeks.

It happens every year: 3 weeks after school starts there's a respiratory virus epidemic, and 6-8 weeks after schools starts there's a gastroenteritis epidemic. Happens everywhere, every school year.

It fer dang sure ain't Ebola.

But there are those who arent docs who would never be human to miss an early case of Ebola. If you don't believe it just ask them.

they are a waste of money. I get them, but I have never gotten the flu.

Ifin flu vaccines were so good why isn't the gooberment adding it into their chemtrails???

In fact, no one is suppressing the dumbass.

Dumbass suppressant.

I see we are back to discussing ebola.

Is this the same Dad you were speaking of when you advised folks that going to a doctor was the most hazardous thing they could do to their health?

for posterity:


You're pulling him like Lawyer Dagget.

It's hard not to think you are awesome. Especially when you are being a smartass !

All I know is I'm not going to panic.

I have full PPE gear in my Ebola bug-out bag and plenty of canned sardines.

This is a perfect example of Doc's statement. Literally too stupid to live. Thanks for stepping up to the plate and hitting it out of the park.

Good grief, It's a risk every time you get in your car yet you do it daily. Seems so far you have survived.

Thanks for the reminder Doc. I need to get my flu shot ASAP!

I gotta get me a couple cans of that there Dumbass Suppressant. I hear it's on sale at Home Depot.

Serious ? for Doc: How important is the flu vaccine for a relatively healthy 51YO? I've never had one.

I like it

Amazing! You must just be lucky.

You don't need a fugging flu shot. You'll be fine.



Travis

Well, it depends on how you define "serious".

If "serious" means, "will getting a Fluvax ironclad-guarantee save my life this flu season?", well, the answer is Probably Not.

The benefits of this vaccine in one individual is totally unpredictable. You could end up with a severe adverse reaction, but the probability of that is extremely low. On the other end of the spectrum, you could end up being one of the 60% of the population that DOESN'T DIE if a true pandemic hits us and wipes out 40% of the population, as it did in some parts of the world in 1918-19. But the probability of THAT is also extremely low.

The reality is that your personal, direct benefit from getting a ful shot this fall is likely to be unnoticeable to you. If it prevents you getting a bad case of influenza, then you won't be sick in bed wishing you were dead for 5 days and then feeling like you'd been dragged through a knothole backwards by your scrotum for another 10-14 days. Since you won't be noticing those symptoms, you really won't have any perception of benefit. But if you DON'T get the shot and DO get those symptoms, you'll fer damn sure be wishing you HAD got the shot.

The benefits of having the majority of Americans get flu shots is best measured in terms of population benefits. In other words, if you and most of the people in your community get flu shots, fewer old people and fewer babies will die this winter, and the chances of a truly horrible pandemic sweeping through your community this year or in the next 10 years is reduced.

But like Hawkeye says, you pays your money and you takes your chances.

Note: none of the above advice applies to Flave, Shrapnel, the Poohbah, nor any other superhuman members of the 24HCF who I may have, without intending any offense or incurring any liability, legal or otherwise, neglected to mention by name in this disclaimer.

SACRILEGE! BLASPHEME! Bring in the thumb screws, Torquemada! Err, I mean, DocRocket.

Dad's been a practicing internist for about 54 years now. I wonder how many flu shots he's given his patients over all that time.

Easy question.

Getting a bad case of the flu is a possibility every year. NOT just when you hear about one that might be nasty. Flu kills folks every year and makes some of them miserable enough that death looks like a better option.

Annual flu vax will show your immune system 3/4 varieties of flu, so, even if you get the flu chances are good that it will be milder. While a newly shifted from animals flu might be really capable of visiting death on a lot of people all the years of flu vax will have exposed your immune system to a lot of variations and that can be thought of like banking immunity like lots of pennies from lots of different countries.

You immune competence does function on the "use it or lose it" principle and competence does diminish over time. But... you neglect to put the pennies in the bank you don't have and competence to lose, plus the similarities/repeats year to year do not reinforce the prior exposure (vaccination) so the competence diminishes.

Ehhhh, whatevs.

Thumbscrews are so 16th century. I've got a ridid sigmoidoscope, jumbo variety. Don't need no steenkin' thumbscrews.

Modern medicine is a very mixed bag, in my opinion, but if your doctor wants you to start chronically taking medication for something that was caused by bad diet and practices, and which can be treated by alterations in same (something that happens regularly), then you're better off staying away from him. Got a broken arm that needs setting, or you've been in an accident, got poisoned, etc.? Then doctors are the people you need.

immunizations are outside the bag?

Have you ever advised any of your father's patients to stay away from him?

Vaccine theory is fine. It's based on your body's immune response. In practice, however, there are often problems with vaccinations, stemming from various sources. This is undeniable, but is often covered up by the medical establishment in that most who are receiving their regular vaccinations don't know about the very real and serious down side potential.

Do you have evidence for this? Especially of the peer-reviewed and scientifically-valid variety?

Nothing I've said is denied by the industry. They just don't much publicize it.

Bullshit!! There is no "industry" to confirm or deny it. As I said in the OP of this thread:

So since they haven't acknowledged it, viz a viz a denial then its true?

I guess when someone said you were too scared to have lunch with me, it must have been true, since you didn't deny it.

[quote=DocRocket]
In McCoy's voice: "He's brain-dead, Jim! I'm a doctor, not a miracle-worker!!" {/quote]

There's just not much information can be stored with only three neurons. I had an English Setter like that once. Made for a lot of interesting observations.

I think it's akin to a seatbelt. I haven't needed one in the past 20 years, but that doesn't mean I don't always wear mine.

I get a flu shot every year, always have, always will. Hell, I even got a Tdap vaccine this past spring.

How to recognize a vaccine denier:
1. smells unclean
2. is a vegan
3. is anti-gun
4. if pro-gun carries a Kel Tec w/out a round in the chamber and the magazine contains Glasers
5. argues w/ Doc Rocket about medical matters
6. Agrees w/ TRH about anything

mike r

You are also driving a busload of plague-carriers 5 of every 7 days.

Not any longer, I went back to the retired life.

Why would I wish to have lunch with you?

I reiterate:

And this has any bearing on vaccines how and why? There were myriad peer-reviewed, scientifically-valid studies on cigarettes and health maladies. Are there any on vaccines and the maladies that you allege? Can you provide proof and evidence to support your position?

Good! You earned it.

Glad to hear that, Steelie!! Drivin' schoolbus is the most dangerous and thankless job I can freakin' imagine, next to being an engineer on a Soviet nuclear sub...

I don't think even DocRocket will deny it. Ask him.

Of course there is evidence in the medical literature of adverse reactions to vaccines.

However, as I said before, and reiterated... I now re-reiterate:



The overwhelming consensus is that the good done by influenza vaccine so overwhelmingly outweighs its infinitesimally small risks that to not use it would be criminal.

Not that this distinction will penetrate TRH's idee fixe regarding immunization.

Thanks!

I was wondering when the annual TRH anti-flu-shot rant would show up. Now I've been inoculated, so am immunized against it for another year.

https://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf

Did your dad prescribe medications to his patients who had bad diets and were maybe overweight?

Or did he kick them out of the office and tell them to go find another doctor?

Thanks.

Nice twist.

Didn't use the word "wish", now did I?

Frankly, the fact that anyone would be in your neck of the woods, and offer, despite any heretofore mentioned hostilities, to sit down for a lunch, - and not even get the courtesy of an acknowledgement, (even a KMA, or GFY would have been adequate in that regard), shows you to be every bit the xenophobic, paranoid schizo that is oft alluded to in many a thread.

Noticing you did not deny the "scared" part....

Has anybody on the 'Fire ever said they've met Hawkeye face-to-face?

Only a couple of Mossad agents, one dark complected, driving a truck.

I had no idea you weren't an American. From where do you originally hail?

Don't thank me for the first half of my answer while you ignore the second half, it's dissimulation at best and frank lying at worst.

Documentation of adverse reactions is not the same as what you alleged.

But I'll thank ya' for your concise answer to my question.
Thank You

Thanks for the reminder Doc I need to go get my flu shot!

My apologies, I used the term to indicate you fear anyone foreign to "you".

How about anthropophobic?

Again, no "scared" denial. And a change of subject. You are like a democrat when it comes to arguing. Accuse others of what you do best.

Certainly anti-social.

That was your question.

I'm social with those who are sociable.

This may come as a shock to you, but I don't have a single thought of you, positive or negative, apart from when I'm actually reading your posts.

Yeah, especially if you vote Dimocrap.

When I was a kid I knew we were pissing off our time by getting that Polio vac.

No, it was not and you know that very well.

I always blame myself. I mean, who knows what I brung back from Africa....

...sometimes I exhale extra heavily when grading papers

RWE is quite sociable and a very good fellow. My wife finds his dry sense of humor absolutely hilarious.

Yeah, Mike, I'm glad you admit it's THE TEACHERS deliberately causing this stuff!! The NEA is actually a bio-terrorist organization, admit it!!

It couldn't POSSIBLY be that the nose-pickin', snot-dribblin', non-handwashin' KIDS could bear any responsibility...

Didn't you express doubt that there are actual risks of serious consequences from flu vaccines?

Sounds like Guillian-Barre' Syndrome.

Yes.

No. I asked you to provide peer-reviewed, scientifically-valid evidence to support your position that vaccinations are far more harmful than they are beneficial, and more so than we are being educated/told by the medical profession.

Your assertion is that there is a vast conspiracy to cover up the dangers of vaccines by the medical profession. If so, there would be peer-reviewed, scientifically-valid evidence to prove that vaccines are far more dangerous than what the medical profession is touting. That is what I asked you to provide.

A very rare complication, but one that I am quite well aware of and know a good bit about.

No general concern for others?

very anti-social.

another Frein in the making.

And by the way, since you have to toggle my posts on and off, I assume there is one other thought in there, aside from actually reading my posts.

This conversation would be much more meaningful if I had with your father, who is an MD, than with you, who has no Medical training that I am aware of. Can I assume that he is virulently anti vaccine as you are?

Doc,
I always find these medical discussions with non medical offspring of physicians interesting. Rarely have I encountered such opinionated people holding wildly erroneous positions on subjects they are no more qualified to comment on than the neighbor lady with blue hair down the street.

The trump card is always "my father is an MD!" Great, but you're not. Dad has a vast background to draw from to form a conclusion. Be it with or contrary to Standard of Care, the position should be able to be argued on Evidence Based science and on a level commensurate with the training and education such individuals have accumulated.

Doctors' kids are notorious for this... especially the ones who wanted to follow in daddy's footsteps and couldn't cut the academic rigors. Not pointing any fingers, of course...

Do you vaccinate your dogs?

Is there any reason why Hawkeye can't invite his internist father to join the Campfire?

I think the old boy might enjoy the fellowship.

I got the shingles vaccine a month ago based upon your recommendation but I've never had the flu vaccine, in spite of my pharmacist trying to stick me with one every time she sees me.

I haven't had the flu in over 7 years. I have trepidations as to the flu shot. I don't wish for the shot causing even a mild form of it for me.

If modern medicine had anything more than an inkling of how the immune system works, they'd have a cure for allergies and all the other inflammation responses (like type 1 diabetes and psoriasis for example).

I get a flu shot every year, or so. I've had the flu one time and that was over twenty years ago. Knock on wood...

We lost a very close friend this past February to it, she was only 40.

Ca a flu running it's course through men our age really cause enough damage to make us reconsider our feelings as to an inoculation?

I feel like [bleep] for a week and then I come back. What does the inoculation do?...cut it back to 3 days of misery?

You can still get the virus after the inoculation,right?

Seven years ago, you had the flu?

Never had a flu shot, never had the flu. Just wash your hands and stop mind-[bleep] everything here guys. Go live life instead of worrying about something you'll never change.

Over 7 years ago, yes.

Odd question, unless I'm missing something.

I've never been shot in the head either, but I still carry a gun.

There are generally 2 types of folks that don't worry, those that are prepared and those that are ignorant.

I hear talk, but I've never actually known anybody to get the flu after receiving the vaccine.

Spanish flu killed the strong mostly, about 30-50 million depending on what your read.

I hear talk, but I've never actually known anybody to get the flu after receiving the vaccine.
========

I have but I really can't say they had the flu, even though they said so. Plus, I've read of it happening.

Maybe I don't know what the flu actually entails. I'm thinking nuclear cold with fever that keeps our asses sedentary for at least 2-3 days.

I have come down with a nasty "cold" several times right after I have had a flu shot. I'm not sure if it was the flu shot or just bad timing, but it has happened enough times that I no longer get a flu shot.

My Dad.

But he's 80+, COPD, cancer, heart conditions, agent orange, etc. So even a light flu puts him down.

The only case I know for sure.

So much for that dry sense of humor.

Lately, even my dry sense of humor is lacking lubricant.

I'd have thought you'd not want to go through that again, is all.

He takes a risk every tine he ties a rope to his bed posts loops a slip knot around his neck and slides off the bed to Masturbate too....but I guarantee ge isn't gonna quit doing that

OK, now I understand.

I'm simply trying to discern whether the inoculation prevents the flu or just lessens the severity of the misery.

What I've learned from my own research,suggests it's more of a mitigation of the flu's severity, rather than a preventitive measure.

Not that any mitigation isn't welcome, of course.

For what it's worth, and maybe DR can answer this, maybe I really don't know the difference between a nuclear cold and the flu.

If you are exposed to the strain(s) against which you are inoculated, the vaccine SHOULD prevent you from contracting it at all. If not, or if it is a different strain, then mitigation of impact is highly likely.

Ah, the infamous "Stroke & Choke"

No known vaccine, but there is a cure...

I can tell you what the Hong Kong Flu was like. It was a mother [bleep].

Thank God I was 18 and healthy, because I'm not so sure how well I'd do now if I was hit with something like that.

I had the flu one time. Three days in the bed with 103* fever, diarrhea, terrible body aches and little desire to survive. I don't remember it being anything like a cold and don't want it again.

Honk Kong Flu.

I'm going to assume that's not what my buddy had after his trip to Bangkok...

Again, no know vaccine, but penicillin kicked it.

=======

Ok, now I think I get it. No nasal,mucous,ocular or cardio-vascular congestion or other irritations with the flu, generally?

I've had lots of patients claim to have influenza after a fluvax, but since the advent of Direct Influenza pharyngeal swabs which allow me to test for flu in my office and ER (past 5 years or so) I have seen ZERO cases of influenza in patients who have been immunized. ZERO out of several thousand individuals.

As for symptoms of fullblown influenza infection: high fever (103+) that only partially responds to ASA/tylenol/ibuprofen, severe muscle aches, cough, chest pain with deep breathing and coughing, severe headache. Other symptoms may present as well. In its worst form, it can produce hemorrhagic symptoms/signs such as bloody diarrhea, hemoptysis (coughing up blood), and blood in the urine. Fatal cases I've seen in the past 20 years have been sometimes to some degree hemorrhagic.

My last personal bad run-in with flu was in 1983, and I was sicker than I had ever been in my life before or since. Really, really sick for 5-6 days, then weak & debilitated for 2 weeks thereafter. I couldn't walk a block for 2 weeks after getting sick.

That's the one! You don't forget it.

Direct Influenza pharyngeal swabs??

It's a long q tip for getting cultures from the throat/airway/nose.

Not a slang term for blow job.

Okay, at least three people you know have told you what real flu is like. Go get the shot.

and what goes over his head is because his mom was suseptable to it it was just as likely she would have got it had she got the flu without a vaccine....its an auto immune responce caused by a hell of alot of things, including coming down with the flu.....hell vaccines, given to how many people each year cause only around 40% of GB cases in the US....

if you run the numbers you are more likely to be killed by not getting the vaccine cause you come down with the exact strain it protects against than the chance of coming down with GB....

=======

See what I mean? It's difficult to break it all down.

Up until your post, I thought I was getting an ER BJ and I was emailing Anthem/BC/BS to see how much of it was covered.

Help me out. Where did I say that?And where did I say that?

and they dont hide the risks....no they dont scream them at the top of their lungs but neither does any other medication producer...but they arent hiding that occasionally there is a reaction....EVERYTHING has risk, the riskiest phugging thing you can do is get behind the wheel yet i bet you do it everyday....

I reject your characterization, but no, my dad's a big advocate for vaccinations. He has, however, come around on multiple issues I've had with him over the years. For example, he was convinced I was from Mars on the issue of the proper diet for cardiac health over the past twenty years (Getting butter or eggs in my home was a real hassle growing up, as he was strictly a margarine and Eggbeaters man, being an orthodox physician). Now, in his retirement, he's been forced to admit that the science has proven my position right, and that of orthodox medicine to have been wrong. Another example: For about fifteen years I've been warning him and my mom about NutraSweet, providing them with the details as to why it's not safe, and how it was approved based on political considerations rather than scientific. He always poo-pooed it, insisting that the literature doesn't support my position, and on he and she went guzzling down their coffee sweetened with NutraSweet (Equal). Recently he approached me and said, "You know, it turns out you were correct on NutraSweet all these years, and then he went into all the reasons, matching up exactly with what I'd been telling him all along. So, even an orthodox medical practitioner can eventually come around.

Doc,

Sorry, I got my Hep A and B mixed up.

Regardless, poor hygiene practices in various African vaccine programmes are now thought to have spread AIDS, plus other diseases as you noted with Ebola.

As the timeline for the emergence of HIV1 and HIV2 in Africa goes back to at least the 1950's, it does over lap the golden era of vaccinations, although the "explosion" was indeed later.

There was another simian virus (SV-40) that transferred from monkeys to humans, and this have been proved to be via contaminated polio vaccines back in the late 1950s early 1960's in the US. This same contamination has been detected in Soviet oral Polio vaccines into the late 1970's.

SV-40 is now common in humans, although is said to lie dormant. However, in other animals, its been linked to many different cancers especially in tumours, and has in fact been isolated in many human cancers and there is still controversy about the possible role of SV-40 virus in cancer in humans..

Regardless, it was contaminated vaccine production that allowed it to jump from monkeys to humans...

Other vaccines have allegedly been contaminated with female hormones which potentially could have reduced fertility in a population of male recipients, again this was in Africa.

So while I don't buy into all the various vaccination conspiracies, vaccination programs have been far from straight forward, and their potential downsides are not always obvious or immediate so I would say it pays to keep an open mind.

Regards,

Peter

What, Med School isn't just like undergrad? Three hours of class a day and 21 hours to goof off? Cliff Notes should be enough get you through Pathology (sarcasm inserted). They probably don't do pot cases anymore. All virtual.

You need a different venue and card.

Look for the Candy Stripers with a Cube on their iPhone.

Very funny. I fainted during the piglet dissection in Middle School. It was at that point I knew I didn't wish to be a physician.

It's the law.

wasnt contaminated production, it was the fact that thousands of vaccines would be given out with only a couple of needles....disposable syringes werent common til later....so because of the massive vaccine drive in Africa for smallpox and other things they rapidly spread AIDs from a couple people to a hell of alot....the vaccine wasnt the problem, improperly sterilized needles between patients was....

Yes, and stuck away in the Parvo-fiasco thread was this gem from WranglerJohn:


And then we find that the proliferation of vaccinations is linked with increased infant mortality - http://beforeitsnews.com/survival/2...tically-increased-mortality-2523764.html

I don't think one or even a few vaccines are necessarily going to significantly harm you, but the number they want to give kids these days is ridiculous and there ain't no way I'm getting another one every year.

LOL!! Sounds like my son... he decided law would be a better career for him first time he had to field-dress a pheasant, about age 8, I'd guess..

Most hay fever is the result of a chronic state of hyper stimulation of the immune system resulting from the regular consumption of pasteurized milk. The pasteurization process destroys the milk-protein-digesting-enzymes, thus you're unable to properly metabolize them. Your immune system responds to them as foreign matter, thus lowering your body's threshold for environmental allergens such as pollen.

As for psoriasis, most cases can be eliminated with a diet high in saturated natural animal fats while drastically reducing consumption of starchy foods and sugar, particularly refined fructose.

Fixed it, Hat.

I meant juvenile-type diabetes, where the immune system attacks the pancreas. Is that not type 1?

There are a lot of reasons for immune system pathologies. So far they have not found a way to make person A (who has a pathological immune response) respond like person B who has no immune response to whatever given allergen.

Two different issues, one was with poor hygiene (as I actually said)a fault of the mechanics of the vaccine programme, rather than a problem with the vaccine itself, but the other issue, the cross over of the SV-40 virus from monkeys to humans was directly traced to contaminated oral polio vaccine...

And don't forget that in Africa, as in most of the Third World, untrained merchants sell Penicillin (and other antibiotics) injections at roadside kiosks and door-to-door without making any effort to sterilize needles, syringes, or multiple-use vials of serum. Immunization injections are only part of the problem.

PeteE, I figured you got your A and B mixed/typo'd, no big deal but wanted to be clear on HepA's fecal-oral vector...

As for SV40, yeah, that was a real Charlie Foxtrot... the contamination of oral polio vaccine didn't occur in the wild (i.e. from African monkeys to African humans), but in labs in the USA producing the vaccine virus on a substrate of homogenized monkey kidneys in the 1950's. I've seen estimates that as many as 30% of kids immunized with oral polio vaccine got SV40 virus, and this virus is associated with increased risk of developing certain kinds of cancers. Who knows what effect that has had on incidence of cancer in the US and abroad since then?

Vaccine production since then has gone from animal substrates to synthetic substrates for viral cultures, and more commonly to recombinant DNA technology that actually uses no live tissue whatsoever to maintain vaccine purity...

What I find incredible ( but perhaps not surprising?) is that Soviets continued producing the contaminated vaccine into the 1970's and the 80's even though the problem was known about.

I am not sure of their reasoning/motivation behind this, but tend to lean to toward high level incompetence rather than any grand conspiracy..

This contaminated vaccine was administered not just in the USSR, but right across the Third World, where ever they had influence in fact..

Um, yeah, Soviet public health efforts were EXTREMELY heavy-handed... except when they weren't.

The frighteningly high incidence of antibiotic-resistant TB in the former Soviet republics is another example of the failure of their public health model.

i had to take the flu shot in the military. and without exception, it always made me ill. feverish, achy, weak, etc. something ain't right about a shot that does that.

What I am just getting over where I was partially paralyzed, had my immune system attack my nerve linings, developed lesions in the brain is often referred to as the vaccination disease because it's triggered by an infection or virus and also vaccines which makes it more common in kids.

Having said that I plan on getting a flu shot and a shingles vaccine pretty soon.

Just to be clear I'm not a vaccine denier just thought it was funny in an odd way you get sick from a vaccine, but it's not really the vaccine so to speak like the autism people gripe about. Plus it's normally temporary if you don't die from it LOL.

What undergrad program were you in? The only other folks I saw closing down the library at night were other engineering students...

I get a flu shot every year and never had
"a touch of the flu" after. I guess different
folks in different environs have different
experiences. I trust Doc's opinion.

I'm hoping you are doing well and get to mop up on those crappie and bass this coming spring.

Yeah probably not. Still on paid leave. Turnaround season is the spring so I imagine it would be poor form to 7 months off of word on paid leave and then take off to go fishing as soon as I get back lol.

Organic Chemistry

Couldn't do that in the library. They got all pissed off when we'd crank up the Bunsen burners.

Yeah, they would have frowned on chitt getting spilled in organic chem lab crap too.

aw, what's a little 1 1 1 trichloroethane amongst friends?

Nice dodge ...are you a liberal democrat?

Pretty sure he is.

Considering he stirs naught in conservative causes here but dissent between folks, and has been inconsistent in his back stories and personal narratives, combined with his fearful disregard to even meet another member for a social event, (and based on pm's, not just me - apparently), I would say he's about the deepest shill we've got here.

Odd how folks stated they could almost see his point on a few topics - contrary to conservative thought- but the inability of the mole to add any sort of personal "skin in the game" rendered them feeling he was simply a whack job, which in many of ours books could mean "liberal democrat"

His dodge so duly noted above is the same event he (and some of his +1'ers that haven't realized him for an epic troll) would and have berated others for doing.



(if he comments at all, he'll want to address my "conservative thought" statement as a detractor, but he can't really deny the skin in the game. To do so would render him a fraud, and all his chicanery null and void)

I've never had a flu shot. I don't see the upside to them..

But that's just me. Well, my sister has never had one either and she's 73 now and healthy as a horse..

Sorry DocR - there's no question you mean the best for us all (well, most of us LOL) and I've had shots in my life for a bunch of other stuff - especially when I got into the Navy (geez, I swear I got 50 shots in 30 days.. )...

My wife gets one every year; she's a nurse and it's required.. BOTH of us had the flu about two years ago and we were BOTH equally sick for about 7-9 days..

It's good to build up some anti-bodies..

I've never ever had any type of vaccination and I am a healthy 63 year old, will be 64 shortly.

I hear that a lot among people who've never had any sort of vaccination, not even in infancy.

Hmmmmm. Well this "narrative" might have held some water except that the vaccinations against smallpox and polio went so well. There are folks out there who are abnormally sensitive to just about anything. That is a fact of life. There ar also some who have very very powerful immune systems. Both together represent a rather small portion of humanity so all the others benefit greatly from vaccinations.

jwp, redneck, poboy... if you recall what I wrote in the OP, you'll recall that at no time did I suggest that folks who don't get themselves a flu vaccine are a problem. You're adults, you have the right to make that choice, and I fully support your right to not get a Fluvax.

But that's not what this is about. This thread was started to point out that the anti-vaccine crowd is led by fake scientists and fake experts who play on folks' fears to erode support for mass vaccination programs. The overwhelming evidence & consensus among TRUE experts is that mass vaccination programs work: they reduce mortality and morbidity due to infectious diseases and they do so with exemplary safety.

That's an easy record to fake when the medical profession drags its feet when it comes to identifying serious complications as being vaccine related.

When my mom developed Guillain-Barre in reaction to her flu vaccine, the staff neurologist refused to indicate the flu vaccine as the cause. My dad happened to be friends with a top administrator at the hospital (a cardiologist associate), whom he contacted about it. Only then did the staff neurologist agree to indicate that it was a reaction to the flu vaccine. Most folks, however, don't have a close relative who's a doctor with connections at the hospital where they're being treated, so it's a very reasonable conclusion to draw that most bad reactions to flu vaccines go unreported, and thus don't appear on the safety statistics you cite.

Medical professionals are psychologically predisposed against drawing the conclusion that serious medical conditions might be associated with a treatment that they've personally recommended in the past to patients as safe.

That's an easy claim to make considering we can't see her chart.

Not to mention, even in 2010, the last report I've seen on GBS versus the 70's swine flu outbreak, people still don't know the cause of GBS in general, let alone has another statistical anomaly of flu vaccine versus GBS been shown.

Given the isolated spike, some theories hold that the particular strain of flu in question may have been more of a factor than the vaccine.

Not disputing what you posted or that vaccines do not serve a purpose for many, which of course they do. I was simply making a statement that I never taken any type of vaccine the same for the majority of my family.

Hawk, this is COMPLETE AND UTTER BULLSHIT!!!

You have yet to come up with any credible reports/studies/reviews that support your assertions... everything you've EVER cited is personal experience and the occasional piece of junk science from one of the pseudo-science websites you favor.

There is a huge body of credible peer-reviewed evidence supporting the efficacy and safety of vaccines which you are of course completely unable to refute, so you put up a BULLSHIT post like this one. Again.

Aside from a few bad apples here and there, doctors are NOT invested in specific treatments in any real way. For example, we recommended estrogen replacement for menopausal women for years, until the WHI and Nurses Study came out showing links between estrogen supplements and certain cancers, heart disease, and stroke. Most doctors immediately about-faced and stopped prescribing HRT. (As it happens, the WHI and Nurses' Study were both wrong, and both have recanted their previous findings, but you don't read that on the Front Page... after all, any cub reporter knows that if it doesn't bleed, it doesn't lead...)

Never thought you were disputing, John, and I'm more than pleased to hear of your continued good health. Got any handgun hunting plans for this fall?

Too busy with work and the horses at this time. I may be able to get s bit of hunting in here at home.

Not sure what websites you're referring to, but the statement quoted above bears the authority of the person who composed it, i.e., myself, a holder of a Master's Degree in clinical psychology, as a result of which, I enjoy a certain expert-level of understanding of human motivation.

I'm [bleep] crying

You're also a holder of a Doctor of Law degree, IIRC, which allows you to enjoy a certain expert-level of understanding of the law.

Tell us, in your capacity as a legal expert, do you think a judge would accept you as an expert witness regarding human motivation based on the mere fact that you have a Masters Degree in clinical psychology?

Or would there have to be something more to your CV before that could ever happen?

Classic.

Your an expert.

It's such a [bleep] lay up I tripped on my laces enroute to the basket.

By the way, meet any abortion bombers having their rights trampled lately?

Apparently the masters degree doesn't cover vetting source material.

Like this topic perhaps?

I'm thinking if the judge saw a few of the threads he started here he would commit him in a straight jacket

Classic..

I wonder what level of motivation there is for someone that continually posts unsubstantiated [bleep]?

Is there a Masters in Clinical Psychology here that can help me out on that one?

I am surprised at you. Don't you know that when administering the flu shot they are secretly placing a small tracking microchip in your body? It then reports home to the mothership.

I don't have a masters in Clinical Psychology, nor did I stay at a Holliday Inn last night but i'll take a stab at it

His motivation is that he covets the KOTY award

He is also skilled in the arts of war and military tactics.

Didn't Longshanks chuck that [bleep] out the window in Braveheart?

Ok then. On my way home from court, I stopped by my pharmacy and got the shot. Fully covered by insurance, as was my previous shingles vaccine.

She told me I had to sit tight for 20 minutes after the injection.

I let her shoot me in the ass though so I'm guessing she needed that time to compose herself.

I'm sure she needed the 20 minutes for something else.

Maybe there is a Masters in Clinical Psychology here that can help us understand her motivation....

Don't forget an expert on Law enforcement training

I'm not giving our jack of all trades a pic of my ass, mister!

I was lying about that anyways; upper left arm.

If I get sick, I'm going to own our respected doctor!

Did she massage the injection site?

Happy ending?

Will you be going back for more inoculations?

As a master of clinical psychology I wonder if TRH would self diagnose himself to be a Narcissist or suffering from Dunning-Kruger effect.

His continuing insistence on displaying his ignorance make me hope that his employment as a teacher is just another delusion.

I got my flu shot yesterday, If TRH says it's bad I must have it.

mike r

My daughter is working for a children's doctor, and has told me of many parents not wanting or failing to get their kids shots for various things that we routinely got shots for in the 50's and 60's. The daughter also has a four year diploma in health sciences. This really bothers her, the lack of preventative shots.
As an example, the gooberment serving as a big coyote and drop shipping south american kids all over the U.S. with God knows what in their blood.
The excuse given for lack of the preventive shots is often you haven't seen that illness here in years. Well, wait a while.
The only reason i haven't had my flu shot yet is the doctor was out of the serum last week, which reminds me i need to do it.

No need.

It's plainly obvious he is a man of imagination.

In TRH land, every billboard has Bob's ass on it...

Gauging by how much the kook posts during the school day, the florida teachers union is a strong one.

The reasoning that "we haven't seen these illnesses here in years" is absolutely phugging amazing to me.. Especially when you respond to those who say it with " have you ever wondered why we haven't see these illnesses here in years?

I bet it's Bob's ass he thinks about when he hangs himself off the bed and Masturbates

We must all come to grips that the term "shared resource" as he puts it, as well as the varying areas of instruction, leads to a logical conclusion that he is in fact, a district substitute teacher.

The only time he works is when a tenured member becomes ill because they received advice not to get a flu vaccine.

Well, yes, but I was thinking of Hawkeye's time in the dojo.

If you get the actual flu I will always wish you the best for a speedy recovery - all the while LMAO since you got the shot...

Just can't help myself..

Ok, I'm done laughing.

Mid 60s here. The flu kills many in my age group and above. I get mine every year. I also got the shingles shot. Oh ya and the polio shot when I was very young. Im glad I dodged that bullet.

Personally i think a person is a damn fool not to get a shingles shot, given that i have had shingles. One of the more painful things i have dealt with and that level of pain is way over what i had with a compound fracture of my leg.

Interesting!

I just ran across that term in my news reading today. Interesting article, and when I read that portion of the paper, TRH immediately came to mind... not that I'm diagnosing him at a distance, it just seemed appropriate...

http://thefederalist.com/2014/01/17/the-death-of-expertise/

...and...

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...idence-the-classic-dunning-kruger-effect

Doc, from your second link:



There's been a lot of this going around. Is there a vaccine?

(p.s. I am not an expert)

I'm going to need a bigger glass.

Doc, thanks for the links. I had never heard of this, but have seen several examples lately.

Ed

Doc, I'm enjoying this read, I think. Doesn't bode well down the road

It bodes well in the long run. Nature is an excellent culler of the ignorant and the stupid.

I've learned to be satisfied with informing and not saving.

Unfortunately, she has no sense of urgency.

Fixed it.

Ed

Ed is a regular Cowboy poet sometimes....

Yep, I rarely misunderstand Ed.

Boy, howdy!!

RWE, urgency is lacking but overdue.

Doc, thanks for the links.

Instant experts lacking in training and experience are more dangerous than Ebola. Advancing knowledge requires effort as well as intellect.

mike r