I would like to know, other than whatever the Outfitter thing was.He has more real deal/life experience than 99.9% of anyone on this forum,including,me.

He was one I always listened to,not that we always agreed, but he is older than I, which is hard to get these days.Not a concrete Cowboy in any way, like some who have more money than brains.He lived/lives the life..

His post will be missed...

Enlighten me as a curious poster.

Jayco

what are you talking about ?
what i miss ?
ray got banned or something ?

Two reasons I suspect.

First, everyone says or does something stupid occasionally.

Secondly, arseholes hunt in packs.

It was on the African forum and everyone jumped on the bandwagon like blind dogs.I just don't get it with all he has to offer to the new guys..

Maybe he screwed up on a deal or two in business but I could care less.His opinion and experiences in hunting and firearms, are not "SECOND TO ANYONE" here currently posting.

Jayco

I really hope this issue can be resolved and that Ray will continue here.

+1

Just to play devil's advocate:

How do you know that for sure?

Also see this thread on AR:
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/832100588/m/9871046141


A few posts from the AR thread:






I recommend that anyone interested in this topic about Ray really needs to read the entire thread over on AR (link posted above).

My two cents....
-Bob F.

I think the answer is he jumped into the frying pan.

Ray has been prone to fabricate and/or embellish his accomplishments, experience (and liberally "borrow" from others experience to portray as his own), and in recent years the expectations of the hunts he's advertised.

My statement is easily backed up with empirical evidence, as it's all available online on various hunt Forums going back several years.... if one is inclined to look for themselves instead of remaining gullible.

There is a group of individuals that have a bone to pick with Ray, and they never miss an opportunity to bring up past grievances and start the name calling.

Now this is funny!

Ray got hammered because he had trouble in 2 key areas, those areas are truth and reality.

Drummond

And here come the Wolves....How do I no that Bob??????Because I have been there done that and no chit from the real deal.I could care less about Africa other than knowing the African guys go out of there way to blow out anyone that disagrees...JJ Hack himself brings up the 45-70 in Africa to get out of a disagreement.

Randy Garrett was one on AR but since Jorge is using a levergun now,there in and cool.

I said right off..I don't care if Ray made a bad choice in buisness,I said his post for the normal guys here looking for advice, would be missed with the experience he has...

Thats all...

Jayco

Who cares about what goes on over at AR? AR is nothin but a bunch of candy A$$ drama queens.

Using an awful broad brush there, aren't ya?

Landrum

so the question remains did Rick ban Ray due to his pitching a possible illegal hunt in Africa? Personally I don't know much about Ray but two posters seem to follow him around like they have a personal vendetta against him.

No, he isn't.

I don't believe (could be wrong of course) Ray was banned here nor on AR. He simply picked up his marbles and went home.

That's his MO whenever he's called out..... after he's blustered and made threats.

Fear not, several months to a year or so from now, Ray will be back.

He crossed the people who really run this site.

Please change your font.....it is very hard on the eyes.

Fnck off oldman.

+1

Finally, something within this topic we can all agree on!

My whole point in posting this was not to start a gang to gang fight.My point was to ensure that us guys and gals that don't hunt Africa have other alternatives to advice from experienced people like Ray,not dominated from a Western State.

Cliches run hard around here.You agree or pay the price regardless of your experiences, longer than others.

Ray's hunting experiences is second to none around here, if nothing else because of age.I always look for his post and Phil Shoemakers because I know,they have been there done that just like a few of us and don't ride the band wagon.

Jayco

Your first mistake is that you believe anything Ray says........he is a first class poseur.

Really...

Your age and experience hunting is................

Jayco

Rating Ray along side Phil sure shows bad sign reading ability.
I've read the various Ray threads. Seen some who may have a bone to pic.
As someone said if you can't tell Ray is a blowhard you have your eyes sewed shut.
But more than just being a blow hard he tells lies that can cost potential hunters a lot of money, or maybe worse, as evident by some official responses to his claims.

Horse trader comes to mind.

Nice spin attempt there logcutter.......Ray is full of crap.......and only a fool would believe his nonsense.

FVA

If you can top my 62 years of age and 60 of them hunting(well,my mom holding me on a horse back into the Selway of Idaho),then you can tell me,who to listen to and who not.

I see why some thump there chest on the net.....Anyone who has hunted for an extended period knows BS from fact..Yes,experiences differ but the BS stands out and lack of experience.

Geez.....Sides are drawn regardless and everyone will fall in with there crowd,not common sense.

If you have more Hunting experience than Ray...Speak up...

Jayco

You talking REAL hunting experience......or the BS that Ray tries to pass off as his experience.........

He is a laughingstock and you defending him doesn't make you look too good either!

What is Ray's hunting experience?
As you say, BS stands out.
That is half the answer to your question. The other half is his inability to acknowledge not being in the right a time or two even when it becomes irrefutable. Paints himself in a corner do to speak.

Now that worries me,so I'll just haul azz like I was advised via PM.

Jayco

Jesus Log, can I play?

Not what you fellows call hunting, but.....how about three years shooting rabbits for a living and fifteen years shooting kangaroo's as a Professional Trapper licenced (PT o5395) by the National Parks and Wildlife Service in New South Wales, Australia.
The last twelve of which were for human consumption.

My point being........anyone can have done anything anywhere, at anytime.....it is a hard thing to pick, particularly from words on a monitor.


Ps, and unlike some......would you like me to post pics?

I want to see pics of the kangaroos.

What does kangaroo taste like?

You have got it.....give me some time to scan and post.

Chicken

Glen

show us the biggest, baddest 'roo you've shot! i've never seen one at all and kinda wonder how big they get.

Don't know anything about kangaroos but the Wickedweasel girls from Australia are pretty good.

I ate alot of Kangaroo when I was living in Canberra, good to know they fell to hunter's guns and weren't pen raised and shot.

To my taste, it was more like deer than anything. Very lean and hard to cook unmarinated without searing the outside and leaving the inside bloody. Took awhile to get the hang of it; it's a dense meat, but very tasty and went well with a red wine marinade.

Just because you're old doesn't make you infallible. It just means your scrotum is wrinkled and you piss 6 times a night.

Thanks. too bad we can't readily get at the grocery store here in the States. I would like to try some.

Now that is funny

" Why was Ray Atkinson fried? "


Was he battered as well ?

sctotum..., scrotum..., wrinkly krinckly baggo' skin...an' its the sack hat holds my nutz in...scrotum..., scrotum...
an I only have to get up once a night.

I was warned but if any of you want to play hard ball..Sign up here....

www.levergunlovers.com

I really can't believe the lack of respect for people like Ray,but i'll play..

Jayco

No dog in the fight, but didn't Ray claim to have seen a 26" Pronghorn??


Doesn't sound like a firm grasp on the west.

Jayco,

I go back posting with you to the old MarlinTalk. I have no dog in this fight but IMHO, Ray did seem to exaggerate a bit. He had some great lines and I used one for awhile, paraphrasing but the one that an animal is like a can of Coors was priceless.

Ray had many opportunities to defend himself and prove the naysayers wrong but never did. I don't know why but my guess is that he couldn't back it up.

I did enjoy his posts and would have loved to see the hunts, animals and firearms he spoke of but again, he never did.

I know a few guys like him that talk a good line and have some real world experience but like to embellish a bit and talk louder than others, because of a couple I have a disdain for the 270 Winchester that I have to get over.

The last thing is I enjoy posts by Phil Shoemaker, Steve Timm, JB, Dober, Big Stick(needs a better way to deliver his message), etc as they talk well and back up what they say in words, photos, etc. No hit, but Ray is not even on the same playing field, again IMHO

I'm not one of the wolves that follows Ray around on the various forums and tries to discredit him. IMHO, Ray has done a fine job of discrediting himself over the years.

I've been a member of AR since February of 2001. Despite what some people think of AR on here, the link I posted above has posts by some of the actual players involved in the whole mess that Ray found himself caught up in. He did NOT come out looking very good. His credibility was blown to pieces and he was caught in flat out lies.

The thread on AR went into a LOT more detail about the whole deal than the one posted here in the 24HCF African Forum.

Also, it seems that you have a prejudice against the "African guys" on here... Hmmm... Why is that?

For the record, almost my ENTIRE hunting "career" consists of 3 safaris in South Africa for plains game. (In 2000, 2002 and 2005.) I have taken a total of 22 animals in South Africa. I have NEVER done any hunting in North America except for taking 2 feral hogs here in Texas back in 2001. That's the total of my hunting experience, period.

However, I believe I do have enough experience in Africa to know that some of what Ray has espoused about his experience on here (and other forum websites) does not pass the "smell test".

Do you really think that in today's Africa a booking agent from Idaho could go to Africa and take and/or cull "a hundred or hundreds" of Cape Buff? That Ray could afford all of the airfare, for the many trips it would take, on an agent's earnings?

IMHO, Ray tries to pass himself off as the reincarnation of John "Pondoro" Taylor..... Frankly, I think it smells and I take with a grain of salt many of his "tales" about his experience. It just doesn't add up IMHO.

Again, I recommend that anyone interested in this topic about Ray really needs to read the entire thread over on AR (link posted above). Judge for yourself concerning Ray's credibility and honesty.

My two cents....
-Bob F.

Fricken drama queens I tell ya! Ant burnin, candy a$$, drama queens. The whole lot of em.

There you go!
2009 Trappers lic

2009 meat lic

1995 again

1995

1998 80 roo's

2009...I think

15 years of tags
[img]http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww315/no_onehere/15yearsoftags.jpg[/img]
Oh,oh [bleep]
[img]http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww315/no_onehere/Ohohsht.jpg[/img]
Oh [bleep]
[img]http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww315/no_onehere/Ohsht.jpg[/img]

That's alot of kangaroos. How much does a big kangaroo weigh and how do you hunt them?

Thanks.

Oops...missed a couple.

Last truck 2008 or 9, not sure.

Back of last human consumption truck.

Chip

I wasn't going to reply to anymore post until I read yours.I do remember you and your a fair guy with a level head and I take what you post with interest and the belief you believe it.

I was born in Idaho to a family of packers and names come down year after year you remember.At one time Ray was well thought of here in Idaho as a person.Maybe it all changed or he is as bad as me at putting words to the keyboard.

I was not trying to start a riot,just asking why...I doubt there are any that can tell me Jack's favorite packer in Idaho.I new the man and loved to hell the stories of Jack and others as stories go..Sadly he passed away last summer and will be missed along with his stories..

The guy that was with me on my first Elk just got his 18th in a row at 85 years old...A man to listen too and learn..Seems most here already know it all so I am pizzin in the wind but never forget,I still have a lot to learn and listen to those with more than I have..

The rest is easy to figure out if you have any experience at all.

Jayco

I've never known a fisherman or hunter that did not embelish the tail or tale each time he told it.

I guess I've seldom felt compelled to call someone out. When I sense that one has moved from embelishment to fantacy, I just pass over. After all...this is the internet.

I'm staying out of this pot-stirring thread regarding Ray but like [bleep] and opinions I have mine as well and anyone can PM me but since my name was mentioned, well I feel compelled to respond. Jayco, I've had lever guns all my life and my foray with the 1895 was up front all the way. It was and is an attempt to replicate was Teddy Roosevelt did but I still consider it's capabilities limited and far from optimum for large, dangerous African game (emphasis on large). There is no way a 405 Win, 45/70 or even the new 475 Turnbull can stay with an appropriate Express or Magnum caliber as defined by at least an SD or 300 or above and MV > 2000-2100 fps and at least 300gr(and remember this is my opinion, based on my limited experience and gleaning from others with considerable experience with large, dangerous game). I know all abolut Randy Garrett and his solids that shot clean through elephants, buffalo and even the kitchen sink. I've also know a few gents who've taken elephant with a bow, what more proof do we need that all of the above work? Where I take exception is when someone tries to sell me on the idea that a Marlin lever gun in 45/70 is every bit the DG gun is as a 458WM to name just one. That is delusional. When I finally do get around to whacking a buffalo with a 405, of one thing you can be certain, next to me will be two people, the PH with his backup rifle and a tracker holding either my double 450NE or my 416 Rigby. Levers are way cool and an 1895 TR is "uber cool" but it is nothing more than a calculated whim on my part. Now for the cats we might be closer to agreement, but in my opinion (and there is that word again) a Marlin in 45/70 is about as cool as a minivan...jorge

How did the Oh [bleep] Happen?

No, it isn't....best night was 95....worst night 0.

Only allowed to shoot on properties that have a 121 issued for a specific number, species, date range and location.
Shoot any outside these parameters and all hell breaks loose.

All have to be head shot, at night under a spotlight.....failure to head shoot results in an aus $300.00 fine per offence.
Guaranteed to make you a good shot!!!!!

Always shot alone, as I was too bloody miserable to pay some sod to do what I could do myself.

Gee officer....I think I may have gone to sleep.....there is no way in hell I shot a roo 210 yards out into the scrub and went after it....in the dark with my lights off.....because I was less than a kilometre from someones house.....on a public road.....!

What is worse, I had spent most of the night digging my truck out of flooded irrigation....NOT FUN!


NOTE TO NPWS officers....note that I said that there is NO WAY...so fnck off and annoy someone else.

Embellishment and tall tales are one thing.... Passing over fantasy on the Internet is fine. But when Ray's hunt offering exposes a potential client of his to Lacey Act violations, and the potential to be prosecuted under said act, then that is something else again.

Again, read the entire thread on AR and decide for yourself.

-Bob F.

If he ever stumbles into something you actually know quite a bit about, you might find he actually knows next to nothing about it. Certainly, he might be an expert at some things, but he ain't quite the guy he thinks he is.

And along those lines, when the chips were down, he never did cowboy-up like he so often bragged he would. He's sort of a fair-weather blast of hot air.

I won't miss him.

So is he off the air on both forums?

His last/most recent post on AR was on Oct 14, 2010.

His last/most recent post here on the 24HCF was on Oct 8, 2010.

(This is as of the date and time of my post on here.)

-Bob F.

There's one thing I have learned by hanging out on the Nitro Express forums (which is hosted by an Australian) since 2004... Our Australian friends are VERY serious about their hunting!




Cheers, mate!

-Bob F.

Same to you Bob.

My favorite story that Ray ever posted (on AR) was the one where he and some mexican cowboys caught some wild cows and sewed there eyelids shut so they could be sold or moved.

Ray posted some hunts for muledeer that I could afford and was interested up to the point where he refused to provide any photo's of all the big deer that had been killed on the ranch according to Ray...hmmm.

I have said it before and will say it again I think its great that some of the guys here brought to my attention that Ray refused to show any photo's of animals killed on his leases.

Dink

To be honest Dink, I do not know anyone that carries a camera about with them.
Were I to pay for the privilege of hunting in some exotic clime I would most definitely have a camera to keep mementos of the trip, I would take none of the game shot as dead things in pictures do not really ring my bells.

If I were selling my services as a guide I would make sure that I had an album full of animals shot by clients.

Don't forget that Ray did provide a few pictures a few years back. The picture of the biggest deer "they" had ever killed was a buck killed by a friend of mine that had never heard of Ray Atkinson and Ray inflated the score by 30"! The other deer were killed by friends of mine that had never heard of Ray and were killed on a ranch that no client of Rays would ever hunt. These pictures are still on his website for anybody interested in seeing them.

Ray also advertised a buck that was poached in a closed county that was quite a distance from the ranch henwas trying to promote.

The problem with Ray is that you have outfitters that try to sell themselves to these booking agents and then the agents pimp these hunts to their clients so your essentially doubling the BS by the time you hear about it. Good booking agents are able to sift through the BS and advertise accordingly, Ray is incapable of doing this. Ray just exaggerates the hell out of those hunts. The sad part is that the hunts were priced right and provided a decent opportunity but Ray just killed it with his advertising practices.

And the 26" antelope he saw?!? WTF? He doesn't have a clue and some of you guys think he walks on water. It's yet more proof to the phrase "there's a sucker born every minute"

Drummond

Think again, I do not think enough of anyone anywhere to think that they walk on water.

And the reason that I chat to you lot here is so I can flip the page when I get sick of you......walk on water, hardly.

no_one,

He can speak for himself, of course, but I don't think huntsonora's reply was directed to you personally. I think he was just making a post to everyone, in general.

-Bob F.

Then I apologise unreservedly.

No worries bud! I didnt really direct that at any one person in particular and especially not at you.

Also, I'll trade you a mule deer hunt for a hunt in Australia if your interested! My girlfriend and I want to go and if I could squeeze in a hunt it would make the flight a lot more bearable

I cannot afford to go anywhere....but if you came here, what do you have it in mind to hunt?

so boss lady who really runs this site???

Neat pictures. what happened to get the truck into that predicament?

Jayco,

Like you, I value others experiences and respect my elders, it was how I was brought up. I believe as some others have commented, where Ray went over the edge is that he is doing this to make money. I don't know much about Africa, except what I read but it seemed what he was selling could have put a guy spending his hard earned money, in alot of trouble with the law.

Best regards.

a hunting site is going to be full of BS, and it would be sad if Ray turned out to be a crook. Just as bad is the concept that all he posted was BS borrowed or stolen from someone else. He gives the impression of being a older gentlemen that has hunted all of his life, owns his own spread, and very knowledgeable. I guess on the internet anyone can be anything if they are a good enough liar! Oldman/bosslady the question to you is who in your opinion runs this site??

Yep. Love to see those shots of stuff outside the North America / Afirca norm

Fair enough

I've been guiding trophy Jackelope hunts in Southern Idaho for 5 years.
Beat that...

Ray was last seen riding off into the sunset with Belk and DFC.

some may remember but about 5 years ago ray got ran off the AR forums when another deal blew up, the same pattern happened in that case instead of just admitting it was a bad deal and trying to make it right, he dug himself in so deep that in the end he was buried. the bad thing about that deal was someone did pay money and lost it.

some people mention it as the sheephunter event on the AR forums. what ray did was lie low for a year or 2 then come back when the dust settled.

those who are defending ray need to realize there is such thing as history, also keep in mind most people that have really done all the stuff ray claims to have, don't brag about it.

I have no dog in the fight, but unfortunately there are some on the Fire that are real easy to criticize. They never broke a game law even if it involved checking a waterfowl field 2 miles away on private property that was baited & they arrived with a guide in the morning before dawn. Then there are those that have vast areas to hunt in the West, Canada, or Alaska so if you hunt different STFU. On the topic of Ray I suspect he has embellished a tale or two, perhaps even fabricated stories, & been guilty of not exploring every detail of a hunt he had for sale. I had a booking business many years ago & its a very difficult way to earn a buck. I assisted a friend in obtaining a hunt with Ray several years ago. When I checked The Hunting Report & SCI I was not able to find a single complaint. There are many diligent booking agents that for one reason or the other have had complaints filed about them. There does seem to be a pack that follows Ray around the net & despite never having hunted with him post everything negative possible. Most of us don't have the time to pursue personal vendettas.

remember its not the mistake that is the problem, its the cover up

Well I am sure Ray is a nice guy with a wealth of experience. BUT I think it is safe to say he also has a rather large ego and he does like to yarn things up just a tad bit from time to time. I think he got backed into a corner and lost his cool.............not too good for business or reputations when that happens. Lotsa people talk a good game through their keyboard trick is to be able to tell who has the most honest and upstanding keyboard. YMMV

Big difference between embellishing a bit, and advertising hunts using animals taken by other folks on ranches you don't have hunts on. Or advertising hunts using photos of a buck that had been poached.
I reckon if someone was making money by selling hunts using photos of a buckI took without anything to do with them(Ray), well I would be pretty pissed off. Yeah I would tend to follow that around some.

I don't know Ray, and I have never dealt with him. I can say though that if the things that Drummond and others have brought up are true, I can't repect the man. Ray has been challenged a number of times, and other than get all blustered up he has not offfered and explanation or evidence to the contrary.



I am curious about the "sheep hunter" thing as I have never heard of it.

I am curious why they sewed the eyes partially shut on the long horns?
I have heard of splitting the tongue of a crow.
And I have seen frost bitten parts, and I have heard of docking tails, notching ears, splitting waddles and bleaching the hides of cattle, but never had to sew an eye shut.
Must be a texas thing?

STFU...?

Ray represents 90% of the outfitters out there who are nothing but crooked.

Well, after pages of the usual 'back and forth' on the man, I'm still wondering what 'fried' means in this context, and if he has in fact been 'fried'.

A little off topic....

My FIL got a really nice deer around Alpine Wy, and was quite proud of it, proud enough to have a wallet size print he carries everywhere he goes....


So he was at the Sacramento sportsman show 10 or so years ago, and was thumbing through a guide's book, and guess what picture he happened to find? Being busy, the guy behind the counter broke stride of a conversation with a potential client to answer the question " are all of these pictures of hunts you personally guided" and of course the reply was Yep.


So my FIL says "all be darned, I didn't know you were guiding me when I killed this buck" and as the guide turns he see's the photo my FIL tossed on the counter, then looked up and realized the guy in the photo book holding said muley was my FIL.....


So being who he is, my FIL rips the picture of him and his buck out of the guide's book and walks away. He found out his cousin gave the guide the picture .... so be wary of guides who wish to trump up their ego's, and strictly use guides who give several references of non-slick talkers who are friends or paid to talk a good talk....



I have seen talk of Ray's trumped up kills, but never cared as I have no inkling of using a guide ( in the US) at this time in my life.

Allen

I bet there aren't too many that remember DFC and the "Gold Coin" debacle.

Hell, I just figured he'd gone hunting with Fox.

Well Damn it, after SIX pages is he "FRIED" ?

To summarize, Mr. Atkinson has stated that he will no longer post on any internet blog following what he feels was ill treatment on another internet site. Specifically see the AR thread mentioned earlier.

The other point of veiw is that he got caught trying to sell an illegal poaching hunt on AR and they nailed him to the wall for it. He wisely has chosen not to show his face there again since.

I think that might somewhat cover both sides of the issue......................DJ

I have never seen him post on a net "blog"-just Forums.

"This is my last post on any internet blog"....Ray Atkinson


His words not mine....................DJ

Thank you ...

I've eaten quite a bit of it also. It is dense and to me it tastes closest to Pronghorn.

Okay, so what are the immigration laws for Oz again?

I liked my PM's from Ray, he never mentioned selling anything even once. In fact he only PM'ed when I discussed do it your self hunting.

You know the percentage, how?

What is the difference between a blog and a forum?

Like picking flyshit out of pepper.....

A blog is a personal journal that is shared online. A forum is what you are reading here at the Campfire.

Here is an example of blog and forum:

Jim Zumbo got "fired" from OL because of his blog about assault weapons.

Atkinson got "fried" on here and other forums because the hunts he was selling did not appear on the up and up.

Well, I have to say this has been both interesting and educational, both this thread and the linked AR thread too. Not that I will ever go to Africa, but I have always wondered about the use of booking agents for any outfitter anywhere. I know some outfitters likely cannot be trusted and it is certainly obvious from this that there are certainly booking agents not to be trusted either. Not to say that is a big revelation .

I think this illustrates the need to do a bunch of personal research and at least talk to several selected outfitters (and/or agents) yourself. It is your money at stake and your backside potentially in harm's way.

Sounds like some knowledge of the Lacey Act might be a good idea too. Probably tedious and boring reading but it looks like it might be a good idea. Might help you to ask the right questions.

I have set back for a couple of days on this to see and here people jumping on the bandwagon.Maybe Ray did make a mistake in his buisness and I don't no or care.

My point was,Ray has so much to offer in his actual hunting experiences that far exceed 99% of the people on this forum.I stand by that...

There are a few that fear Ray and his answers and jumped on early, that rarely post out of the African forum which is a dominant forum anyway you look at it.I read it for humor,in some cases.

I never once saw one of these guys on this forum and thread slam Ray aka JJ/JB/458 or CB jump in bashing Ray with equal or close to experience...Are they just grown up or......

You guys lost a volume of info from a man that has hunted all his life and rely only on internet cliches your either in or out of.

I think it is sad..Not for Ray but those with way less experience that could have learned by his....

Chit happens and the internet goes on....

Jayco

Wow

When I first read all this crap, I thought it was just a matter of one outfitter (huntsonora) bashing another. This most recent event, along with Ray's lack of response is making me think otherwise. A good example of what I'm referring to would be with this fellow named John Burns, the owner of GreyBull Precision. Lots of guys jumped on him claiming he was over charging for a rifle system he offers and those same folks claimed they could build the same for less. John's response was reserved to say the least and offered anyone making such claims to put up or keep walking. That is just the opposite of what Ray is doing.

You're kidding, right?

SU

How old are you and how long have you been hunting?

An honest question..

Jayco

I'm 53 next month and hunting/killing stuff for 48 years.

That's an honest answer.

Far short of Ray or even little 'ole me.That's the problem..Everyone thinks they know it all..I sure don't and rely on older hunters for advice on things I have not yet seen and I made my living working in the woods...

I learn every year I go out and certainly have not seen it all although I have alot of years doing it.

Jumping Ray is a High School thing,not an adult thing!!!!The truly tough,don't talk about it...

Jayco

I haven't read this thread, but just in case there is any doubt, Ray did NOT get banned, nor was it ever under consideration.

Carry on ...

Explain that to your podnah, Ray.

Logcutter, What advice are you looking for from Ray?
Advice on 26 inch pronghorns that Ray has claimed too see?
You do realize 26 in. pronghorns dont exist, dont you?

Advice on 40 inch wide mule deer that Ray claims to have on his property, not only does he have 40 in. bucks on his hunts, Ray says out of 7 or 8 hunters 2 or 3 will harvest these mythical 40 in. bucks. By those numbers he is at 25 percent or better on 40 in. bucks.. You do realize that is impossible dont you? And Ray offers these hunts for 50 percent less than other outfitters, Really?

Would you like his advice when your sitting in a different country under arrest for poaching?

If so feel free to grab the hunt in question, it's only a 25 thousand dollar gamble.

I have never met Ray nor ever had PM's or e-mails with the man,let alone phone calls or anything else....

Just saying, the net sucks sometimes and everyone ends up a looser in the end!!!

Jayco

You could have said that in your 1st, initial post and called it all good, Jayco.

Old Toot...

I'm to old to be smart yet young enough to be dumb..I don't have a thing against any poster here,infact,a few I really like...Just trying to make a point about bashing others,especially someone like Ray with alot to offer those not as vocal as being posted on this thread.

Man,theirs a ton of watchers, just listening, yet unwilling to jump into a fire and get bashed as the net does by 50 year olds knowing more than almost 80 years olds,both doing the same thing but the older longer..... .

As Rick said..Carry on...

Jayco

Jayco,

You should have never started this post and made the claims about Ray that you did. We all have a natural tendency to doubt and say prove it.

I don't doubt some of Ray's extensive firearm/outdoor knowledge but also knowing he was biased, aren't we all!

I think the old cowboy knew how to put a pretty good spin on things though, honed at real campfires. He was better at that than 99% of those here.
He was a professional at turning dudes into clients.

He's probably a great husband and family man.

Like it says, the root of all evil is the love of money. Ray got caught, and that may be a good thing for the long run.
Each of us has that same nature it's what we choose to turn loose. None here better than Ray and Ray no better than anyone here.
Some make better choices than others though.

SU

Good post..Seriously!!

Jayco

I respect my elders, and I value the experience of others. But will you acknowledge that it's in the realm of possibility that thirty years of experience could be one year thirty times over?

I do know Ray and visited with him at his home as well as at various SCI shows. He is not a rich man nor a crook but someone who thought he could moonlight some as a booking agent and maybe parlay that into some good hunting. There are a lot of folks doing that part time and from my experience Ray was a lot more honest and trust worthy than most of those. Like most older honest folks Ray tended to take folks at face value - so if some outfitter told Ray he had numerous world record trophy's on his place- Ray would believe him. I know he got burned on a few African deals due to this tendency.

Just as there are numerous crooked booking agents in the business taking advantage of both hunters and guides, there are crooked outfitters who take advantage of agents and hunters.

Sure Ray liked the attention he got from this forum - who of us honestly doesn't ? - and he may have embellished some things - that is also a common theme here - but he really does have a lot of experience and knowledge.

I'd never judge a man till i got to know him personally myself

Agreed.
Ray lives just down the road from me. I have never met the man personally, but I hear good things about him from the locals.
FWIW.

Let he is without sin.....

I tend to stay out of these things. I don't know Ray. Have had a nice personal response from him once. This board is a pleasant diversion. It saddens me when things go down the crapper for any-one. Maybe this thread has run it's course?

I booked a hunt through Ray and it was as advertised. I think that a lot of people just look to discredit Ray for any reason or no reason

I know a few old guys that are probably alot like Ray.
Never met Ray but the guys I know are old cowboys/ranchers who have been known to bullchit a little bit.

Fun listening to their stories and a guy certainly can learn something as well.

I here what you are saying Sam but a little ole BS ceases to be "a little ole BS" when $35,000 is involved.......................................DJ

DJ, I didn't read the entire thread and missed the part about somebody getting screwed out of $35k.

Fraud and misrepresentation obviously ain't cool.

So did Ray cheat you out of $35K - or the outfitter?

Nobdoy got screwed out of 35,000 dollars

Who's Nobdoy?

Sounds like a Dutchman.

There seems to be 2-3 folks that seem to have an axe to grind regards Ray. Why I don't know.

Ray sent me on my first trip to Africa and I had a wonderful time with zero issues.

How about no one, zilch, nota, none, etc

Phil,

Good post. Thanks for posting that.

Most sincerely,
-Bob F.

OK to be specific Ray offered this hunt for $35,000. Real outfitters from the area he mentioned jumped all over it and said that this was misrepresented. No-one took the hunt after the firestorm. So noone ended up losing $35,000 to Ray along with a possible stay in an African Prison for an illegal hunt.

In fairness to Ray I want to say that I don't think for a second that he was actually trying to directly screw someone out of $35,000. I think what happened is that he did NOT provide Due diligence and properly research what he was trying to get someone to spend $35,000 on. But in the end if someone had taken him up on the offer the end results might have been the same.

Trust is something that takes a long time to gain and an instant to lose.............................DJ

JWP did you go on a muledeer hunt or something else?

Dink

Whitetail hunt in Texas

As a Dutchman I resent that!!!


ddj

Here are the two best responses about Ray that I have read yet





Years ago Ray advertised a hunt that was in an area I lived in and knew well, for a species I have hunted extensively for year the better part of 20 years. The hunt was so grossly misrepresented I called him on it in a respectful manner and it went downhill from there. He called me every name in the book, manufactured lies about me and left numerous messages on my phone, in some of them he threatened to show up at my door where I lived with my wife and daughter. Want to see a man do things out of his character just threaten his family. I didnt know anything about the man at the time so I didnt take it lightly. He went absolutely ballistic because I pointed out what was wrong with the hunt that was offered over the internet. It was so bad he actually used a photograph of one of my good friends deer as one of his clients and added 30" to the score. My buddy has never heard of Ray Atkinson. All I know is that he was completely irrational and made threats because of a difference of opinion on the internet. What kind of person does this?

That being said, I am not objective when it pertains to Ray in any way, shape or form. I dislike the man

I will attempt objectivity here and we'll see if it works. I think Ray has a great ability at story telling. This is not a knock on him at all, I enjoy listening to stories around a campfire as much as anybody. I also think Ray has a great imagination and this is probably one of the reasons he is a great story teller. Who hasnt embellished a story around a campfire? Hell, I'm from Texas and down there it's damn near a contest so I am guilty as much as anybody.

I think that 458Win hit the nail on the head when he said that Ray believes what the outfitters tell him. Outfitters are salesmen and I think that Ray wanted to believe what he was hearing so he could send people on what he thought were good hunts

Where the problem lies is that as a "booking agent" one would need to listen to the outfitters hunt offerings and then do research to decipher whats BS and whats real so you can give your clients a realistic "sell" on the hunt and not over promise things. I dont belive that Ray does this, he listens to what these outfitters tell him and instead of wading through the BS he "Atkinsons" it up a little bit and now you have a hunt thats grossly misrepresented. This is the root of the problem IMO

As much as I just tried to be objective with Ray I am not willing to just give him a pass on this one. Ray has made a decision to be dishonest on more than one occasion. I'm not even going to go into detail about the stories he has told of seweing the eyelids shut on wild cattle, stiff arming hippos, making offhand head shots on running animals at 800 yards, killing more buffalo than any other white man alive, shooting 2-3 deer over 200" with spreads exceeding 40" every season on one ranch and of 26" world record antelope. The BS goes on and on. There is a post floating round that lists a bunch of the quotes, some of them contradicting one another, I just want to focus on some of his business tactics here. He has made up lies about me, he uses photographs of harvested animals and claims them as "his clients" kills for his North America hunts as well as Africa hunts, he said that he contacted certain organizations about his latest hunt offering only to have people from within the organization come on the forums and let people know that they had never heard from Ray. I know for a fact that Ray has been made aware of his misrepresentations and been provided the facts and continued to represent hunts in a false way. These were conscience decisions by Ray. He knew exactly what he was doing

If a guy just had a reputation for telling a tall tale or two around a campfire thats one thing, telling tall tales in an attempt to sell something is another. Add money to the equation and you go from being a great story teller to being a crook. I dont think Ray realizes just how serious something like this is and thats too bad.

Drummond

This has nothing to do with Ray but years of doing something doesnt make you good at doing it. For instance, my step mom has been cooking for 40+ years and she isnt very good at it. I've been using a computer since I was in middle school but the average 3rd grader is more profecient at them than I am.

I know grown men that have been hunting since they were kids and couldnt hunt their way out the front door of a Wal-Mart if they walked in through the tire and lube department and I know a 22 year old young man that I have guided with that is a killer. He is patient, has a knack for always finding game and consistantly helps clients get within range. He's been hunting since he was 12 but his instincts are better than a lot of men with many more years of "experience". Just a thought...

Drummond

I have no bone to pick with Ray. Beyond reading his posts over the years (which I always found to be entertaining, one way or the other), I have had zero contact with the man, and before today didn't really have any strong feelings about him, either positive or negative.

But I just finished reading the 6 page thread about the "cull" hunt he was offering over on AR (which you can read here ), and I must say that I didn't come away with the best impression of the man. He was offered good advice from many people on there, some of whom were just trying to help him stay out of trouble, and all Ray did was bury his head in the sand. According to Ray, it was everyone else's fault, a conspiracy to ruin his business, liable, slander, you name it. Even after it was made blatantly obviously to him that the hunt was illegal according to a plethora of various laws, he still said "Well, I could do the hunt and there's not much that could be done about it" (or words to that effect).

Judging from what I read, he is not someone I would do business with, nor is he someone I would look to for advice. I'm not saying he's not a nice guy, but after seeing his behavior on that thread I just wouldn't trust anything the man says. But that's just me.


Brian.

I'm sorry, but this argument doesn't fly. One doesn't need to be a football player to be able to observe when a team makes a bad play. In the same vein, one doesn't need to be a boxer to point out that a fighter is keeping his right hand too low and keeps getting dinged with a left hook.

I might not be as old as Ray, and I may have never hunted Africa (and likely never will), but I can sure as hell read. And what I've read from Ray just doesn't jive with reality.

Now, if you want to get your advice from Ray, more power to you. Just don't try to tell everyone else that they should listen to him too.

Brian.

Ray is still listed as an active member here..........

.......

Thanks for clearing that up, Rick.

Ted

Let me get this straight........you claim we have missed out because Ray "has so much to offer in his actual hunting experience"........then you tell us you " have never met Ray nor ever had PM's or e-mails with the man,let alone phone calls or anything else...."

Excuse me, but how would you know all about Ray's hunting experience?? I guess you believe everything you read??

Maybe you haven't read all the BS many of us have seen Ray post??

Ray is a liar, plain and simple.......you have been given MANY examples of the lies he has told yet you continue to tell us how much we are missing because he took his toys and went home.........maybe you like liars.......most of us don't.

I will say this: Ray has some sort of beef with the 45-70. I will also say he doesn't know diddly squat from wild onions as far as the 45-70 is concerned. This makes me highly suspicious of some of his other pronouncements. I would not book with him under any circumstances.

Just for the record, I like the 45-70

The thing I don't get is people won't listen to Ray or even Phil Shoemaker after his post..Seems quite a few of you guys have "I" problems....Not eye but I.....

I am not a concrete cowboy and will challenge you or anyone else to time spent in the woods,not behind a counter/weekends or a vacation for hunting.

In all my years,I no what is BS and what is not,because I have done it year around..Chest thumping on the net is disgusting especially when quite a few think they know more than Ray and Phil,years younger living a completely different life,in a city,for the most part..

Hey,bash Ray or even Phil...Just shows your ignorance and lack of, what they have you will never have.

I have to drive 100 miles to get to a shooting range/Walmart/Costco or even a fast food restaurant like McDonald's..

Don't try and tell me about what woods life is like or hunting,yet I listen to guys like Ray and Phil,not weekend warriors.

Jayco

Anyone having to do that doesn't need to, he lives in one. And seems like you maybe have an "I" problem. Jus sayin.

It is good to see some folks step forward with positives posted about Ray. He deserves that, too.

With all due respect, your all over the place here. I havent seen or heard anybody ever say a negative thing about Phil. I dont think you should lump him in with Ray on these issues.

Then this, which I find quite funny...


Its obvious that you dont "no" as much as you say you "no" and I almost detected a bit of "chest thumping" on your part

Whats most interesting is how much you sound like Ray himself, must be an Idaho thing. The grammar and punctuation is almost identical

Drummond

I like that...At least I am in good company...When you were going to school,I was just hunting/logging and just doing the outdoor thing back in the 60's after I got my GED from Boise Junior College aka Boise State, now...

The difference in Ray and me,is I don't run from bullies...I take 'em head on..Just the way I do things and always have...

This thread has run it's course and I am not going to say anymore..If you want to wrestle with me on the net...

Sign up here...And I will play hard ball with you but not here on Ricks forum...

www.levergunlovers.com

Jayco

That in bold - Thanks.

2 points for you to consider;

1. You don't own any patents on coming up the hard way, amigo.
2. Boise State owes you a partial refund.

Ray told a good story, but was very frequently wrong on a huge number of details on a large number of facts. And despite multiple attempts at politely pointing out where he was wrong, he would always come back with the same misinformation time and time and time again.

As an example, I don't know how many times we tried to point out that there weren't any pre-1960 Savage 99's made in 284 since the 284 wasn't introduced until 1964. But give him six months and he'd be back again talking about how those lever safety 284's like the several he'd had were the best ones to buy. Especially with 26" barrels. Sigh. And six months later he'd say it again.

I don't think he ever maliciously lied or tried to mislead people, but the man didn't know what he didn't know.


Now, on the AR thread.. can't see that he did anything except try to maliciously mislead people by saying he was communicating with people he wasn't.

I was thinking the same thing.

Brian.

And he claimed that people who were trying to HELP him stay out of trouble were in a conspiracy to destory his business.

And he threatened to sue about 5 different people who had the gall to say he was breaking federal laws.

And he completley ignored page after page of advice, and claimed that anything posted online was BS and he'd only believe it if someone called or e-mailed him and told him the same thing.

And he said there was nothing wrong with doing business with Mugabe's henchmen.......despite it being a violation of US federal law.

And he said that he could still do the hunt (poaching expedition) and there was NOTHING anyone could do about it.

But other than that........

Brian.

Of those, only the Mugabe's henchman talk was blatantly advocating illegal activity. The other items were stupid and some unethical, but legal. He wasn't advocating poaching because he didn't believe it was, though that's a thin excuse because he should have known better as an agent.

I hope for his sake that he's retiring early before he gets himself and clients into serious trouble.

Wonder if he ever sent any other clients on hunts like this? <shudder>

Ray's patented excuse was "well, I've seen hunts like this on TV, so it MUST be legal!"

Facepalm.

Brian.

I have no dog in this "fight", but I do want to say that I know from personal experience that Logcutter is a very decent man with a fine family, and he has many years of hunting and logging experience in the mountains of Idaho. I also know from experience that he would "bend over backwards" to help a friend.

Thanks for posting that! I completely understand loyalty to friends, I am loyal to a fault sometimes. Didnt he say he didnt know Ray though? I'd have to go back and look

Logcutter, how bout this, as it pertains to Ray I agree to disagree. Best of luck this season up in Idaho, Its beautiful country

Drummond

[/quote]2. Boise State owes you a partial refund. [/quote]

That's funny! This thread is entertaining and this was the best part.

I've said my piece in full.

a good guy can [bleep] up......in fact i tend not to trust guys that say they never have cause they usually turn out to be distrustful bastards.....

a few guys here that have met Ray say he is overall a good guy....im inclined to believe them but it sounds like when someone puts up info that contradicts what he says instead of taking a step back and seeing if there is any truth there he gets damn defensive and jams his head in the sand....ive noticed this tendency in him on a number of minor things here on the forums, can imagine its the same on bigger stuff.....

it seems this attitude is what rubbed some guys like huntsonora the wrong way.....having had to deal with this same trait in close family members i know its frustrating as hell to deal with....

Ray is likely a great guy other than his seeming refusal to step back and reevaluate things and instead takes a death grip to the original statement and refuses to let go....

"Curious" is good, but the tenor of this thread reminds me of what the Biblical admonition "Judge not" means �

� Don't condemn what God allows.

� Don't condone what God condemns.

IOW, the office of Final Judge belongs to God, not to any of us. Don't try to don His robe. Don't try to pound His gavel. Let Him absolve whomever He will. Let Him sentence whomever He will.

Opine all you want, but walk wide of judging either pro or con.

Like a tight-rope over the Grand Ca�on? And then some! For one thing, the line between judging and opining is indeed a gossamer thread.

(More and more, I suspect that the far greater danger lies in approving the despicable.)

Jayco

Ken

I don't know what to say to you since I stuck my foot in my mouth with your trying to help,years ago.But I can say this,I would be right there if you ended up being fried like Ray.You don't have to be best friends or even know the person other than the net to know if someone is a good person,at heart..I believe you and Ray fall into that category.

Like Ray,I always read what you post hoping,even at my age,I can learn something new from my older comrades.

That's just the way I am.

Jayco

Just curious...
Name Them for us.

Thought you were through??

Forgive the long post, but I wanted to cite some documented facts that are publicly available through the United States Central Intelligence Agency involving Zimbabwe.

After reading all the threads here and on AR involving Ray Atkinson�s Zimbabwe hunt, I find the entire situation with any business dealings, outside of humanitarian aid, with Zimbabwe to be suspect for corruption. No one comes out squeaky clean with this mess. Anyone of my fellow countrymen having an interest in dealings with Zimbabwe should take the time to read some of the information gleaned from the official United States of America records with our Central Intelligence Agency. These and many more facts on Zimbabwe are available to the public through the CIA internet library:
----------------------
Robert MUGABE, the nation's first prime minister, has been the country's only ruler (as president since 1987) and has dominated the country's political system since independence. His chaotic land redistribution campaign, which began in 2000, caused an exodus of white farmers, crippled the economy, and ushered in widespread shortages of basic commodities. Ignoring international condemnation, MUGABE rigged the 2002 presidential election to ensure his reelection. The ruling ZANU-PF party used fraud and intimidation to win a two-thirds majority in the March 2005 parliamentary election, allowing it to amend the constitution at will and recreate the Senate, which had been abolished in the late 1980s. In April 2005, Harare embarked on Operation Restore Order, ostensibly an urban rationalization program, which resulted in the destruction of the homes or businesses of 700,000 mostly poor supporters of the opposition. President MUGABE in June 2007 instituted price controls on all basic commodities causing panic buying and leaving store shelves empty for months. General elections held in March 2008 contained irregularities but still amounted to a censure of the ZANU-PF-led government with the opposition winning a majority of seats in parliament. MDC opposition leader Morgan TSVANGIRAI won the most votes in the presidential polls, but not enough to win outright. In the lead up to a run-off election in late June 2008, considerable violence enacted against opposition party members led to the withdrawal of TSVANGIRAI from the ballot. Extensive evidence of vote tampering and ballot-box stuffing resulted in international condemnation of the process. Difficult negotiations over a power-sharing government, in which MUGABE remained president and TSVANGIRAI became prime minister, were finally settled in February 2009, although the leaders have yet failed to agree upon many key outstanding governmental issues.

Under MUGABE�S control, the Zimbabwean population of 11 � million people suffer a low life expectancy, a high infant mortality rate, and a high death rate. 44% of the population is between the ages of 0-14 years of age, with a median age for the entire country at 17.8 years of age. The death rate is one of the worst in the world, the migration rate is one of the highest in the world, and the life expectancy of both males and females is only 47 years of age. Spread of HIV/AIDS is one of the highest in the world, and they carry one of the highest risks for major infectious diseases.

Zimbabwe is a source, transit, and destination country for men, women, and children trafficked for the purposes of forced labor and sexual exploitation; large scale migration of Zimbabweans to surrounding countries - as they flee a progressively more desperate situation at home - has increased; rural Zimbabwean men, women, and children are trafficked internally to farms for agricultural labor and domestic servitude and to cities for domestic labor and commercial sexual exploitation; NGOs believe internal trafficking increased during the year, largely due to the closure of schools, worsening political violence, and a faltering economy; young men and boys are trafficked to South Africa for farm work, often laboring for months in South Africa without pay before "employers" have them arrested and deported as illegal immigrants; young women and girls are lured abroad with false employment offers that result in involuntary domestic servitude or commercial sexual exploitation; men, women, and children from neighboring states are trafficked through Zimbabwe en route to South Africa. The Government of Zimbabwe does not fully comply with the minimum standards for the elimination of trafficking and is not making significant efforts to do so; the government made minimal progress in combating trafficking in 2008, and members of its military and the former ruling party's youth militias perpetrated acts of trafficking on local populations; anti-trafficking efforts were further weakened as it failed to address Zimbabwe's economic and social problems during the reporting period, thus increasing the population's vulnerability to trafficking within and outside of the country (2009)
----------------------------
As stated by Saeed in Ray Atkinson�s original AR thread, �There is no operator in Zimbabwe operating today without some connection to one or more of those connected with MUGABE.�

As to the Gokwe Region discussed in this dispute, look no further than this recent published article about MUGABE�S activities with the locals in that specific area:
-----------------------------
Zimbabwe soldiers set bases in Gokwe

Published: June 3, 2010

Gokwe(ZimEye)-Uniformed soldiers and war veterans have set up torture bases at Manoti, Chireya, Kana and Masemo areas in Gokwe and Chakari where they have dug deep torture open casts which they are threatening to throw MDC supporters who are resisting to repent and support the Kariba draft, a senior MDC Midlands official has said, with revelations that South African president Jacob Zuma has been informed and yet done nothing.

MDC Midlands province chairperson Cephas Zimuti said in an interview at the weekend that the soldiers who are working in cahoots with their ZANU-PF militia in Gokwe and Chakari are forcing villagers to take part in their toyi toyi moves where they will be chatting revolutionary songs, praising ZANU-PF and the Kariba draft.

He said they are forcing villagers to attend regular meetings at the set torture bases where people are continuously reminded about the June 27 2008 Presidential run off election atrocities.
-------------------------------
With the facts laid out you can clearly see who was to be fed from Ray Atkinson�s advertised (MUGABE) hunt. You can also see and understand Saeed�s point that Ray Atkinson was not alone in dealings with MUGABE in that area of Zimbabwe. How can anyone from the U.S. blindly go into any business dealings in that location with all this documented corruption that is easily made available by the United States Government. I don�t see anyone on either side of this issue as being snow white, and I don�t see anyone involved in such activity avoiding the MUGABE connection. I see quite a few posts made on the AR thread, not trying to give hints to help Ray personally, but posts trying to give hints to stop Ray from discussing the MUGABE issue on an open public forum. This MUGABE connection does not pass the smell test.

Best:)

There's no bad air 'tween you 'n' me, Amigo, as far as I have any say-so!

("Fried?" Least o' my worries!)

Ray and I have had some interesting words regarding mules vs horse and Texas heart shots on elk. Other than that,he is no different than many of the other cyber types on this forum or other forums that claim some things that may be a tad exagerated lets say.
He is a darn site more civil than many yahoos on this forum, and sure doesn't need anyone to stick up for him.

To have this thread extend for 5+ pages on his merits or lack thereof is one of the most assine that I have seen here, especially seeing that it is the middle of hunting season and some of these guys should be out hunting rather than typing.

I don't know him.

Don't know anything about him.

Have zilch interest in what others allege about him.

Have no opinion of him � except to assume that he's OK more than not.

Have enough to worry about just keeping my pejorative knowledge of certain others to myself.

Maybe we should all just change the Subject. Anyone else agree?
I mean RickBin already said Ray wasn't banned therefore he was not fried at least not on the campfire. He may have burned a few bridges and made a few mistakes. He may have even pi$$ed some people and got slammed for it. Who hasn't?
I am not picking sides I am not even standing up for anyone. However the master of the campfire (RickBin) has spoken. So since the answer has already been stated and made public, how about we all just move on or change the subject.

Here i'll help change the subject:
"Say something nice about another campfire member"
I like Ken Howell heck I love Ken Howell! Great man with a ton of knowledge that I myself will never accumulate.
Ken is alright by me.

Anyone else wanna say something nice about another campfire member? Lets move on from something that was already answered pages ago.

Kique

Never you mind what everyone else says Enrique, I think your alright...;)

Heck, Kique, y'ain't met me yet!

Don't need to the PM's and the telephone conversation we had was enough.
If I am fortunate enough to make it to Quemado and meet you, I am sure i'll still feel the same.

"I like Ken Howell heck I love Ken Howell! Great man with a ton of knowledge that I myself will never accumulate.
Ken is alright by me."

Well, I second Kique, and I have had the privilege of swapping lies with Ken face to face on a few occasions.

OK, one flock-shootin' love note for about thirty thousand of "ewe's guys" () � you're all OK IMHO!

Whenever I meet folks who say that they've heard about me, I warn 'em "Don't believe a word of what you've heard � "

� If it's good, it ain't true.

� If it's true, it ain't good.

It's my opinion this says it all.

+1,000

I just want to know how he was fried.....

pan fried
deep fried
chicken fried

okie fried?

Ken Howell is my adopted uncle... the papers just haven't arrived yet...

Kent

Check the bird cage...

And the sewer!

By God, I'll certainly second that one!!!

"Fried?"

Makes me wonder whether they'll dunk me in oil for my stint in the crematorium.

To finally address the question originally posed by this thread:



Because if he were roasted the meat would be too dry?

I've enjoyed Ray's posts and drooled over more than one of his rifles. His load info regarding the 9.3x62 has been very helpful.
If he's gone, i'm sorry to see him go.

It'da been drier if he'd been jerked.

That was funny! Thanks.

PS - Was he battered first ?

According to my calculations, this is at or near the point at which the thread deteriorates into pictures of scantily clad women............

Never thought I would feel sorry for Ray but I wouldnt wish this on my worst enemy. I guess he was covered in a secret recipe of 11 herbs and spices and pressure fried

I need to rethink my formula................

Ok...Ok....

Is that Lee24's wife eating Ray?

Sorry Lee24 where ever you are for talking trash like that. I know it ain't nice. Ray if you are reading they did say you got fried even tho you didn't, then again the pic doesnt lie.lol

Kique

And, 'saulted too!

ARGGHGHH....MY EYES, YOU BLOODY MONGREL....MY EYEEEESSS!!!!

Oh............that helps!

NOW, this business about Ray is getting alot more interesting.

That's the stuff dreams are made of......

Brian.

I had dealings with Ray in 2000 and 2001 and can say that he worked very hard to make things right for me and my hunting partner and I can say without a doubt a reasonable person would not have gone to such lengths to make it right by us.

It's all about his dealings,not his experience.I have not seen one aka 1 person with the experiences he has Elk hunting Idaho and Montana.

I luvs the scanty babes,I do, but it appears theirs to many "Roosters" on the same branch on this forum or any for that matter that over look the years doing it..Mostly young roosters from what I see and read.

Jayco

Brian.

Well, how about that...a picture can say a thousand words!!!

1001...

So bandit..Are you the one with the experience to replace Ray's on Elk Hunting Idaho and Montana...

Yeah Right!!!JB can't even come close to Rays Elk hunting in Idaho or Montana..Ain't old enough and with respect to JB...

The net allows...........

Jayco

]

You seem to have posted several different reasons for starting this thread as many of your replies throughout this whole deal seem to change from page to page.... the main theme seems to be you think he is the only person who knows his stuff, and his absence will destroy this website.

I believe there are 100+ knowledgeable legitimate people ready to take old Ray's' place to fill your void. No offense to Ray, I have no opinion on him other than what he has written here, but I did sniff BS when I read his older threads.


And Judging a person's knowledge or expertise by his age.... is really close minded, IMHO. I think there are plenty of old guys who fit your bill, but have more knowledge to share with you if you are open minded to listen to them now that your idol seems missing. And there are plenty of less aged people who can also help you out, if you really miss Ray's knowledge.


I have no beef with Ray, just really confused by your thread. You do know you have changed more minds into knowing him, thus damaging his character more than helping him.


Just an opinion


Allen

Wow, I gave you some benefit of the doubt above, but I see you opened your mouth above and really stuck yer foot in it....


You are a fool to think Ray was the only person here that you respect for information, sorry your mind is so closed....


And the age thing... IS RAY YOUR DAD?


LOL

Very well put.

Landrum

Name them...That have hunted from youth to 75 years old.

Jayco

Right on!

I'm two months shy of eighty. Many times, many people have remarked that I've forgotten more about this or that than they'll ever know.

And right there's the rub � I've forgotten so much!

And aside from that, I've always learned a lot from those who're younger and from those who have less experience. Still do, thank God!

And let's not forget that for some folks, twenty years of experience is one year's experience ignored for nineteen years.

Theirs alot of experienced Elk hunters on this forum and I have not seen "ONE" chime in on this post...Just the little guys..

Phil Shoemaker even came to Ray's defense on deaf ears saying he really does have the knowledge and experience,yet the yuppies keep chiming in.

Have one of the 100 big time Elk hunters here chime in saying ray is full of it.......They know better as I do....

His experience will be missed by those with way more experience than those against him,hunting Elk in Idaho and Montana..

Jayco

You, Sir, are bordering on absurd.

Even if I told you of 3-40 year olds who possibly know more than Ray ( again, no offense to Ray) , you wouldn't listen.........

I am trying to point out the err in your logic, but you are too stuck on "proove it" to listen to logic. Not playing along, my friend, I have no one to prove anything to, but myself.

I do not need an expert to follow, but I do try and listen to all who give their input, AND I APPRECIATE THEIR TIME AND KNOWLEDGE. Again, there are many people, 5 year hunters and 60 year hunters, that can help, and I appreciate their input. You seem to want a fight? Carry on.....


I already said more than I should, but your repeated abusive tone is very odd for someone NOT ray's kin......nor ever PMing or talking to him. I feel I have many friends here, and they ALL know more than I.

Allen

Cool.. so you'll take the whining over to the elk forum? No need to reply, I know you said you were finished with this thread about 10 posts ago and I'd hate for anybody to think that you're less than truthful, or one that exaggerates unnecessarily.

Dr Howell


Are you an Aquarius... no wonder you are so well respected....

Happy 80'th early, Sir.


My thought is, if I post enough, one day I will make an intelligent comment, not by skill, but by the odds.


I have to get some bedtime, I have to go blow up some expensive Gov't targets tomorrow, it's supposed to rain here tomorrow afternoon, and it's much colder than home....

Allen

Once again..No experience and from back east..Not Montana or Idaho just pay for view hunts....

Try growing up in the hills just doing it....Not paying for it..

Absurd..Maybe, but why is just you little guys posting against Ray rather than the real Elk hunters?????????

The only real name that chimed in..Again......Was Phil Shoemaker in Rays defenses,yet you ignore Phil and his post.Know one else with his stature has said a bad word about Ray.

Who are you?

Geez.....................

Me, I'm not an elk hunter at all and I don't have the hots for any specific elk hunters. But the gunwriters forum is one I like to read for content, not for people carrtying a torch or crying over their beers about a personal friend who screwed himself.


Why did you think this was a question for gunwriters? Why not the elk forum, or the Hunter's Campfire?

Just let it go.

I will if the rest of you will especially those that don't no a damned thing about Elk hunting.

Jayco

Now I know � I'm a deaf-mute cretin � don't "no" a damn thing about hunting elk.

Probably because there were few real hills and no elk where I grew-up �

� exacerbated by the deleterious effects of education �

Oh, woe! What'll I ever be worth?

Wow

I have a headache trying to understand that.....

Who is against Ray? I see people who said he made some very unbeleivable statements, unfortunately promoted a possible illegal hunt in Africa, and read his replies on the other website, and his replies did not leave me with the impression this guy admits any fault, even when backed against a corner with apparent proof. That skillset is not enviable, even though you seem to dismiss it.


So may I suggest you actually go see your idol, since I believe you said earlier he doesn't live that far from you. I think you did say you never met the man.

I suspect he would love to talk to you mano y mano, being his best ally here.



You are really hung up on " people with a name" and "old hunters" and trying to prove Ray is "somebody to respect". I judge a man by his words, and fail to ask his age unless his replies obviously are not correct or sensible.

I am sorry you lost your only information person for Elk hunting. I suspect, though, if you open your mind you will, as I said before, be amazed at the wealth of knowledge here... and I am not part of that skillset.

Good luck

Allen

LOL

I take back the nice tone I had


May I suggest you need to go somewhere else to fill your needs, especially since you don't seem to like the posters here. How did you get so many posts with such an attitude? Have a cold one or two, and relax.


Ray who? This seems to be all about you and your need for a replacement mentor, since you think we ran him off ( he left on his own) and he apparently is the only person to fill your needs.

Again, contact RAY, I am sure he will open his home to you......


NOT.

as for posters that have alot of elk hunting experience.....thinking Dober, Greenhorn and scenarshooter have plenty......pretty sure there are plenty of others aswell.....

At the risk of repeating myself..........



Let me get this straight........you claim we have missed out because Ray "has so much to offer in his actual hunting experience"........then you tell us you " have never met Ray nor ever had PM's or e-mails with the man,let alone phone calls or anything else...."

Excuse me, but how would you know all about Ray's hunting experience?? I guess you believe everything you read??

Maybe you haven't read all the BS many of us have seen Ray post??

Ray is a liar, plain and simple.......you have been given MANY examples of the lies he has told yet you continue to tell us how much we are missing because he took his toys and went home.........maybe you like liars.......most of us don't.

I seem to remember you posting:




Thought you were through!

Jayco,

It should be abundantly obvious by now that you're not going to change anyone's opinion, nor anyone yours.

Probably best to let sleeping dogs lay as nothing worthwhile and constructive has nor will come from this thread.... aside from scantily clad blondes.

I used to have a thankfully very distant cousin who hadn't invented weird but was gold-medal world-class in extrapolating it.

He loved to go to funerals, quite irrespective of whether he'd ever known the late guest of honor �

� just loved to sob over dead folks.

Here I am agreeing with FO,and I do........

Jayco

Ken

Your a Wiley old critter.Last time you addressed me a year or so back,I was an Idaho poaching logger...

A golden tongue doesn't solve everything..But as you said..I have forgot it all but see..............Things...

Best of luck to you sir..

Jayco

Ken

There is no way I can match you wit at writing and getting my thoughts on the keyboard as you can..

So e-mail me at

jaycocreek@levergunlovers.com

I will send my phone number and we can talk..Man to Man....

Rick bin did....

Jayco

The telephone is an instrument of frustration and torture for me, my friend. Especially long-distance.

Otherwise, I'd love to chat with you � by the hour, face-to-face across the fire, watching the sun go down, listening to the loons.

My dime if your interested..

Jayco

Thank you for posting Porch Girl. You saved me from saying something I might regret later.

Brian.

That is my pleasure Brian....she is a good bullsh!t stopper and really grabs the attention, albeit briefly.

Kinda funny.. if old logcutter hadn't started this thread, I'd never have known about Ray's intentional lying and promoting illegal hunts. And in the Gunwriters forum, theres probably several hundred others just like me.


Amazing how much damage logcutter has done to Ray's reputation.

Leads one to ponder that old adage, "Silence is golden".

I read quite a bit in the elk hunting section as well as others, even post a time or two. I can't recall RA standing out as an expert or helping with advice. I'm sure he's done some, but the top elk hunter and authority on this site? I've noticed his name a few times and that's it, nothing special as elk hunting isn't rocket science.

We have a few elk hunters here in Az that don't take a back seat to anyone, same in Utah and NM. And have probably posted as much or more somewhere.

I'm sure RA is good, I'm sure he is the best in his honeyholes, and so is everyone else that works their butt off and is good.

What contribution can any of us give about elk hunting, calling, meat care, ect... That others don't or won't give also. The message will still get out.

Nothing against Ray as I don't know him, just the weirdness of the man crush on this thread.

Kent

Some friends of mine have tabled elk meat from two or more states every year for decades but as far as I know have yet to write or post a word about hunting elk.

Is any of them an expert worthy of Campfire respect?

Ladies and Gentlemen.......we have the winning answer!

"Elk, Deer, and all animals are just like a can of Coors, you punch a hole in the right spot and all the juice runs out and you got a dead soldier..." -Ray Atkinson


That right there proves Ray IS the ultimate Elk hunting King.

Anyone know how to get in contact with Ray? I need to contact him for a guided hunt, as I hear he sells guided hunts with other guides...... possibly a combo hunt with Antelope with horns the size of Texas, or a 40" class mule deer thrown in.

I think a point was made... Just lay off until R.A. responds...

He could be hunting or sick... Or just sick of the net stabbings..

A few years ago I started something that blew up and I just walked away... It was like 6 to one.. Later I found out the guys that had the most posts and in the "click" are just keyboard hunters/fisherman plain losers in real life... With that said who knows what the truth is ??

Good point.

I hope Ray does return, but it is surely odd to see a person accuse people ( not me, I have no beef with Ray) of running off another member, and would defend that run-off sole like they were hunting partners... and the truth is.... he has never spoken to ole Ray.


To Ray being run off, not my problem. But.....

Accusing other ELK HUNTERS here of not knowing how to clean the boots of Ray as far as hunting elk goes, I think said OP has a wire crossed somewhere. The general statement, and requests to "name names" of people who can fill the void Ray has left, seems odd to this Young hunter. I have only hunted elk 3 times ( 1 kill), so I don't even know what an elk looks like according to the OP's standards of judging my ELK intelligence.

Ya have to be able to filter the Chaf, but if you don't know enough to add your own filter, it is not the posters fault.....although the OP seems to feel only certain ELK hunters with decades of AGE are worthy of even posting replies.


It's all good information, how you choose to use it is your own responsibility.

It really is ashame, I never knew how deep Ray's troubles were until this post appeared, nor did I care.

All this leaves me wondering

Where's the orgasmic, obsessive satisfaction in deifying or demonizing someone whom you've never met and really know nothing about?

just curious

and puzzled

Geez, this topic is still running? Ray gets more ink when he is not posting than when he was posting.

It makes small minded people feel powerful and relevant in this world.

If you are directing that at me, just bored and curious why the OP seems to think Ray is the only Elk person on the internet. I know enough about the OP to decide he is offending others here....


Otherwise


Carry on

Over and over, I have told my wife about venturing out onto the porch barefooted.

LOL

She seems more than "bare footed" from my eyes....

If I'd been aiming anything specifically at you, I'd've addressed you.

General observations are like cannon fire on the Fourth.

But unfortunately awoke from your dream before you could do anything more than that.

She's your wife??? Uh-oh...I owe you a sincere apology.

Sorry Ken


I saw my name at the top in your reply and hoped I had not crossed your line....


Allen

That's the curse of the "Quick Reply."

Ha, no... Seriously, everything more than that happened before she went tromping out onto the porch with no high heels on....

Gene, no apology needed. It's the price you pay for having a wife with cute elbows....

The real heart breaker is that someone somewhere is already sick of listening to her inane prattle, and is so bored with covering her that he is thinking about a little extra with one of her friends.

I think I might just go and have a little cry now.

To put it a bit differently.

It ain't how long you've been there, it's what you've learned since you've been there.

It applies in a lot of places.

A buddy and I used to watch for/crash biker weddings in Virginia City.

We got a lot of free food, free Bud, and sometimes sloppy...

uhhh...never mind...

I just keep checking back on this thread to see Porch girl and the other women. Your second sentence leads me to believe you might be too. Maybe a bit of a Freudian slip there? They say you're never too old........................DJ

I keep thinking everyone one this thread is just mad that they didn't get to taste fried Ray Atkinson.
Hell I'm even jeleous. If he knows so much about game, he must taste like game. Bet he tastes like fried elk by now.

When I read the title of the thread the first time, I thought ole Ray had gotten the electric chair.

Brian.

Now that we have had the "porch girl", how about a fresh picture of "refrigerator girl"?

It seems to me that she was not without merits.

Or that chick playing the video game.

I have only had one interaction with Ray, 6 years ago.

He was not a man of good character.

Just my one little anecdotal datum point.

I've looked in on this thread periodically, and I must agree with RD.

Much better subject than a want-a-be that has left most of the gun/hunting forums over the past 10 years.

She had big merits, IIRC.

I have known and liked Ray for about 30 years, and count him as a friend (may be embellished but I met him about the time my 30 year-old daughter was born) and have shared lots of work & relaxation time with him. We never had the opportunity to go "hunting" but have shared stories & have similar backgrounds, ranch raised, & career choices over the years, and I can say that there is not a man alive that I would rather have at my back when I needed someone in that position. I have no idea about the problems noted in this thread, but I will be in contact with Ray both online & personally this winter just like always, and you can be sure that all this will be the last thing talked about.
MC

Good post, MartyC. You just went up a notch in my book.

Good post,Marty..Right along with Phil Shoemakers on Ray's credibility and experience that at least I, will miss over the lack of, from others...

Jayco

One encounter and you made a determination that he was not a man of good character. How do we know that you are?

Never noticed before, but she has some awesome hamstrings!

Some single event deeds are dastardly enough to infer low character.

Do a Google search on "Fallacy: Personal Attack "

e.g. Both O.J. Simpson and Mother Teresa could have typed identical posts about Marion Barry. Which one is correct?

"Some single event deeds are dastardly enough to infer low character."

I think jwp475 fits in very well when the subject is low character. He could give lessons to people of low character.

For the love of god, the most sordid of threads.

Wrong on two counts ...God should be capitalized and you apparently haven't kept up on the Hunting Optics thread about some idiot.
Glad I could help.

Sorry, my fault...
i used the roasting pan to change oil in my truck...

Ray was fried cause he criticized Kimber.

I am almost too afraid to go and look. I shall peer between my fingers.

(Later) Uh huh. OKay. Yeah I saw some of it. Feel a bit dirty now.
Dont you guys have deer season on now?

You are supposed to, this is a US site where almost anything goes....great isn't it.

Much better than the polite PC orientated cesspools.

Deer season is over except for late archery season, which I don't partake in. I am heading out in the morning to the Eastern part of the state to watch a friend poke one, though. He said the bigger bucks are out and about and there's about a foot of snow where we hunt.

I got mine last month with a rifle. I don't want to say too much about it, because I was really looking forward to winning our Dink-A-Thon, but this eliminated me from the competition.

Now that is a kick ass truck!