Originally Posted by Stray
Originally Posted by Cheyenne
They are not saying the same thing. I think that you are extrapolating too much. The video is saying that you can manufacture ammo in 3 calibers to meet the same performance criteria and they will all perform about the same against humans regardless of caliber. The .380 definitely is not one of those. It cannot meet all of the criteria, and many loads cannot even meet the easiest two. The Ellifritz study is a review of case reports and doesn’t really contradict this. It is not limited to certain types of ammo, velocities or calibers. It’s just a wide-open review of second-hand case reports. The variables are unlimited. I wouldn’t draw a percentage analysis out of the data and conclude that it’s not enough to make a difference.


Winner, winner, chicken dinner! The FBI specced ammo that would penetrate 12-18", and that is what they got. From 10 feet. Circular reasoning to now say, "Well, there's no difference between any of these cartridges." There may not be any difference between those particular loads, but I don't buy that a 115 grain bullet always = a 124 grain bullet always = a 165 grain bullet always =180 grain bullet always =230 grain bullet.

Makes me wonder if "personal defense" loads are actually watered down from a cartridge's true potential so they don't go past 18".

The FBI specced out ammunition for their needs. They apparently train to get a lot closer to their bad guys than I do and work with a lot of people in the area. I typically work alone on Indian reservations and am not too worried about overpenetation, but am concerned about being ambushed or prevented from egressing on a muddy or snow-drifted, dirt road. My agency won't allow rifles, which would be my first choice in this scenario. So I prefer the heaviest bullets that are issued at the fastest speeds. Our 165 gr .40 ammo goes at about the same velocity as a 124 gr 9mm, (in general, or at least in the brands my agency usually buys) so to me, it's a no-brainer.

As is typical, we qualify from up to 25 yards. How about some ammo tests against Carhartt's and a wool shirt, thermal underwear, etc. at 25-35 yards?

But the technology! We designed a bullet that makes a 9mm = a .44 Mag. The hunting forum is full of stories of wonder bullets not opening up, opening up too much, or otherwise not working as hoped for in the real world. Paul Harrell's videos consistently show that "plain" HP's work as well as, and often better, than what he calls "so-called premium ammo" on his meat tests, but he does not usually shoot thru barriers.


Yes I really like Paul Harrels Meat test.
Whereas Gel test provide a more constant medium to test bullet performance against other bullet performance, I feel like the meat target test provide a more realistic yardstick regarding how bullets perform against human or animal targets.


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