Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Wolf Problems....How bad is it?

I read a thread on another forum where the OP put forth the idea that deer and elk populations in Montana won’t be able to recover from the increasing wolf population.

The thread had a lot of first hand accounts of the devastation viewed at kill sites of wild game, as well as cattle becoming a targeted food source while grazing abroad.

What’s really going on with the federal government and Fish & Game in areas they have been released?
From the sounds of it, other states like Oregon that did a wolf release, have already experienced devastating game animal reductions. In Oregon within 3 years of introduction some of our most sought after hunting units near the Idaho borders for deer and elk have been hurt really bad.

This is no doubt an emotional topic...I’m a pretty active and vocal member for hunting and fishing in my state and local coastal area. And I know from experience, challenging the Fed’s and ODF&G on their intentions to make changes that we as hunters/fishermen know will result in colossal failure, are met with “Thank you for your input and concerns” Then they go ahead and do exactly what they wanted to do.

What’s going on in Montana, Idaho, Wyoming and Utah? Is the Western States big game hunting about to become ruined?

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Beaver I was just talking to a friend that hunted the Northside unit over east for elk with a large party. He said there were no elk in the unit, period. The entire party left four days before season end. He found 8 elk bone piles. I've been hunting my whole life and I would say I average a deer or elk bone pile one a year. One in their party saw a wolf.

I think this will be increasingly common in Oregon. Why we put up with this incompetent (at best) or under-handedly deceptive (most likely) wildlife management agency in Oregon is a mystery.

Rifle, wolf, shovel..... Doesn't really seem this complicated

It can be very bad. We are going through our own wolf problems where I am at. It really changes things.

Beaver,

To be clear, I wish their were no wolves in Idaho....none.

Having said that, the area we hunt is supposedly overrun with wolves too...and we went 4/4 in an OTC unit on bulls again this year. Second year in a row we’ve done so I’ll add.

Cougars take more game than wolves in Idaho, and no one ever even mentions them. Emotions play a huge role in all of this imho.

Your welcome to disagree with everything I’ve said of course.

Dave

The wolves have eaten up ALL the big game in Montana. There's no reason for any non-residents to spend the exorbitant money we charge for licences.

I understand they have also killed and eaten all the children.

I was taught that it was shoot shovel and shut up.....and it works when enough folks engage in it.

Dave, no disagreement since I really don’t know. Wolves haven’t hit my hunting grounds, yet...Our Coug population has skyrocketed from essentially none to a thriving head count in the last 25 years since no use of dogs was made a law. But, I haven’t noticed a decrease on the game from cougars. 😎

This I have also heard from personal friends who’ve pulled tags several times over the years in these units. They have all said the game animals are gone by comparison to years past...This is part of the reason I’m asking for information. 😎

No you tell us after the fact.

The last 20 years have been bad. But there is a balance beginning to happen. Wolves were introduced into a buffet of elk here, where some of the best elk hunting in the world used to be. The wolf population swelled due to unlimited food source. It didn’t take long to eat 13,000 elk, only a few years really. When there was no food source left, the wolves starved and killed each other over territory. Today packs are smaller and more spread out here. I have not seen any wolf sign this hunting season when normally I would not be able to avoid it. There are more elk than I have seen in past years, and 6 bulls were killed in Taylor Fork opening week.

Too late...😎

My 2 brothers and nephew hunted the Snake River unit, They seen wolves. My nephew killed a 7x6 bull

Better in theory than reality... it aint that easy

We have seen a marked decrease in our deer population here in the last 10-15 years. Where we would see 100 deer in one 15 acre alfalfa field at night, we see maybe 12. Elk down by half.
Now as to the reason. I see wolf sign on the place daily. I have also found cougar kills caches numbering in the dozens in the reprod around my place. I have grail cam pics of female cats with triplets full grown. They are eating good.
I would blame all three major predators for the decline
Have seen many unweaned fawns in the back of a pickup. And their does laying on top.

Beav,

I used to hunt North East of Slough creek , ground zero for the initial wolf reintroduction... well it didn't take long to make elk hunting not worth the effort there. The N. Yellowstone herd went from 20k plus to estimated 4k today.

I spent a couple of days in that part of the park this summer and didn't see an elk the entire time, not counting the lawn elk in Mammoth,

Back in the day the I delivered supplies to dude ranches surrounding Yellowstone and they told me in private the elk were almost gone.

The biggest impact has been on the moose population... wasn't uncommon to see a moose in every drainage... they are few and far between these days.

Just up the road from me a drainage was said to have the densest moose population in the state... I hunt it often and haven't seen a moose yet.

Every year the F&G does a hunter survey and the first thing they ask me is did you spot any moose, second question did you spot a wolf?

We used to be able to shoot several whitetail in my area, now only one, a buck. I have spent 5 days hunting around home and seen a handful of whitetail does and one mule deer, zero elk, no elk tracks or droppings either.

The elk and deer seemed to have moved into the valleys close to people, the hills are practically bare.

This summer I have seen seven bears and one lion, the most ever.... had a pack of wolves in the yard the other day, my dog howls and barks ... when she howled the wolves lit up.. it was eery....

A few years ago I hunted 24 days total including several nights back packing in and saw two cow elk the entire season.

Last year I hunted 30 miles back in the Bob Marshall, traveled 10 to 20 miles a day by horse and saw 1 elk 1 Mt.goat, 1 grizzly, 1 mule deer and a handful of whitetails in 7 days.

The people I talk to that used to kill elk every year can't seem to find them , the old spots don't hold elk anymore.

If you pull up the F&G map of wolf packs my locale is loaded with them..... last year I located an elk herd put them to bed for the night and returned at first light... no elk, wolf tracks everywhere in the fresh snow.

Wolves are just part of the decline... bears , lions etc.. are at all time highs. Also rich libs buying ranches and not allowing hunting has created "safe spaces" for elk herds....

In the recent past if I posted such things I would get ridicules as being a lousy hunter.... I was a better hunter before wolves arrived...

I'm about sick and tired of our ODFW myself!!!! We have wolves up here now too. That's north central near the gorge. ODFW has their heads so far up their azzes that their teeth are brown...

The shut-up part is the hardest for most.

I have noticed much the same progression here in NW Wyoming also, and the elk that have adapted seem like hardier survivors, and some really nice bulls are showing up on the meat poles and in the panniers.

Fubar,
Oh, I believe you...And, I believe what your are seeing and “not seeing” anymore is a result of an abundance of predatory animals in your hunting grounds.

It’s documented, wolves, cougars, bears will reduce large numbers of game animals in short order.

I’m curious what the timetable would look like for game animal recovery? In a natural ecosystem area, predators will leave after killing off the game. How many years would it take to reach quality game population numbers?

Timbermaster’s post was terrifying! 13,000 elk gone.

Yes, I read that old thread where some said you must suck at hunting...I just laughed. You can’t slay what’s not there.

😎

FB2 & Beav,

I've hunted that area the past two years and had no trouble finding elk, but don't know how it compares to years past. Lots of people, though.

I talked to a guy this year who swears there's wolves in the area. Never seen one myself, but have seen and heard a lot of coyotes. Saw one especially big one this year, carrying a chunk of elk hide from a hunter kill. For a second, I thought it was a wolf.

Jason

Wolf: primary excuse of lazy, crappy hunters.

4th point,

My friend is about 60 and has hunted there for many years, as tags allow. They are accustomed to finding the elk, but this year the entire party had no luck. They did find lots of bones.

I don’t consider Fred3 a lazy, crappy hunter nor anyone in his family. 😎

Wolf study video how it affects the cattle pretty interesting.

https://youtu.be/ZdEufIke4XE

Wolves have had a devastating effect on all game populations here, I was hunting a favored mule deer area I like and everyday I found at least 1 kill site, not too many bones left, just hair of moose and Mule deer. We would see several 4 point bucks everyday before the wolves took over, after that your lucky to see any good bucks around at all.

Cougars, if you only kill the Toms then you really haven't done anything to help the problem as the Toms take out other cougars that are competition to them. Female Cougars and female Bears need to be taken out if you want to help out ungulates.

The unit I hunt in has a 4% hunters success rate. I guess there are a whole lot of "lazy, crappy hunters" where I hunt. 96 out of 100 guys are lazy fu cks I guess...

I can not attest to it visually at present having not ventured West in three years. When I was last in Darby MT it was terrible.

I follow the issue very closely as I see such as a direct action stance against not only the hunting culture but against the 2nd amendment as the long game. From what I have seen the Wolf introduction is nothing more than the anti hunter organizations and USFW involved at upper levels in a money laundering scheme while crushing traditional wild game hunting culture and economics. The same is going on in other countries.

Here in the SE where I usually reside we are faced with a radical group that wants to introduce the Western Mountain Lion into our Eastern Forest lands.

There is a group on Face book called Oregon Wolf Education that follows the issue closely not only in our nation but in other countries faced with the same issues. Check it out they get it and present lots of evidence as to who the players are. For instance a NY politician is one of the biggest pushers of wolf introduction in the Western areas where they don't currently exist.

In essence the scheme is to spend the money to stock them, develop paid stewardship partners, research them, protect them and support them whilst wild game is decimated to such a point that citizen protest creates enough upheaval to then grant more money spent to eradicate or properly manage and then repeat.

There is currently a bill on the docket for wolf introduction currently in Colorado.

BTW per the newer Idaho research wolves kill only slightly less Elk than cougars. That study has been used as a blanket and certainly doesn't cover states with wolves where cougar density is low.

Good watch attached below

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmWNvpQ1lXY&t=6s

Next up--start training wolves to eat yuppies.....

BuzzH will be along shortly....😂😂

All this wolf/cougar/bear talk - why don't people hunt them instead of applyingfor all the elk/deer/moose etc. etc. ?
Who on here is a trapper ? Moreless nobody ..

There are so few deer around here i don't try and hunt them - wouldn't shoot one if it walked out and stood in front of me .
But i set dozens of snares and have caught about 15-16 coyotes in the past 3 years . Plus i shoot them over bait when i or another lease member kills a hog - have killed a few that way .
Between killing every coyote i can and killing every coon-possum-skunk i see more deer and turkeys now .
Put some effort towards removing predators - give trapping a go even if it's only a week or two checking before and after work . It gets you outdoors a lot .
I'm starting in a few days - it finally cooled off here .

And stop mentioning the shovel - that's way too much work .

So you have wolves in Oregon to the point they’re affecting entire game populations, all within three years?

I’m all ears...

Strict9 ,

Yes you're corect - i've followed the programs and people behind the push to push big predators everywhere - . It's not a bunch of tree-hugging kids , it goes higher than any of us know - real mover and shakers with billions of dollars .

Sorry, have to cut and paste to get the PDF.

Current Montana elk populations:

chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/http://fwp.mt.gov/fwpDoc.html?id=93097

To be fair, this is what I'm seeing too. Very slowly happening though and the beginnings were devastating. Fish and Game does annual phone surveys and the past 8 years or so they always ask questions about seeing wolves while hunting. I haven't hunted up here for a few years due to a lack of game. Told the surveyor on the place I hunted I saw 85 mule deer in one afternoon. Same place following year I cut the tracks of 3 wolves, and saw exactly 3 deer...

Wish they had never been re-introduced...


and as someone else mentioned, lions take a real toll...

Mark, If someone were to look at Wyoming moose numbers pre wolf reintroduction vs. present .....the evidence is indisputable! Our elk numbers are down as well. The elk have changed their habitat patterns to survive. There are many more elk spending time in and around human habitation than what they did 20 to 30 years ago. Even sheep have been affected to a lesser degree! On thing that is helping us, a little, is the ability to kill wolves anytime outside their protected areas. memtb

We were never without wolves in northern MN, deer and moose seemed to do just fine.

Seem's to me the fish and game department's should take a clue from the predators. People don't want female's killed, they are needed to repopulate. Well sounds to me like wiping them out pretty much works better in the long run. I have thought for a long time there are just to many female deer and elk around. Lot of them are barren and the more animal's there are the less food there is. I have to admit I would shoot a wold on sight. Problem being all the hunting dog's that get killed by them. I am not offering my dog's up for wolf food! On the other hand I don't take my dog's where there are reported wolf sighting either. Kind of rules out hunting here as year before last I did see a wolf down by the John Day river. First one in 30yrs here. Talked to the rancher where I was and was told they are seeing them now and then around here. There is a reason wolves were wiped out many years ago. Beautiful animals but they are absolute killer's. I can remember when I was a kid in this state, Oregon, there was a bounty on Mountain Lion. Today you can't even use dogs and lions seem to be on the up swing. Several have been spotted here in town in the last several years. I've bumped into four over the years here. Lived in Montana about four years and spent a lot of time out in the woods. Have never seen one in Montana. I'm not sure hunting the way they do here will control lion populations or wolf population's. Hunter's buy lion tags just in case but seldom fill them!

It happens even faster than that.... I used to travel over Togatee pass once a month for several years, I would count the moose along the way , at times I could count up to a dozen.
Then the wolves were reintroduced and I never saw another moose.. all within a year... I believe my own eyes over some so called expert with an agenda and a paycheck attached to said agenda...
Where is BuzzH?

Whats happened here is opportunists have seized on the moment and used the reduction in game to reduce resident hunters harvest on pretty much all game animals, preferring to give it to the Indians who are worse than the wolves.
I have attended seminars put on by the "wolf lovers" and its nothing short of a big lie, we dont need wolves for any reason and would suggest wolf lovers to watch a video on wolves killing ungulates.

well that was an ignorant statement

"moose seemed to do just fine"
What planet are you on? Moose are not "fine" in MN.

Brad tends to indulge in liberal thoughts....so such statements are to be expected by him....

No schitt...moose were the first thing to go here, and in YNP.

Not to hard to figure out why the moose went first... number one they aren't the brightest bulb.... two they tend to winter in deeper snow... the wolves can run on top.

The first time a moose see's a wolf his brain is thinking "coyote" nothing to worry about....

The few moose I see now are up very high, like the tops of mountains... so it appears they are adapting.

Moose also tend to be loners, except of course cows with a calf or two, and as a result they're more susceptible to wolf predation.

Do some of you really not see that the Wolf intro is but an arm of the Deep State Swamp ?

From here it looks to be the opening salvo in the push to minimise hunting and the popularity of firearms.

But who knows, maybe wolves really are cuddly and wholesome and not really the mongrel creatures I think they are.

Call it what you will but the goal is obvious...for the predators to do population control on the game, and make all those nasty old hunters stay home cause we don't need them anymore.

Wolves were reintroduced under the obligation of the Endangered Species Act. Funny thing is the non native wolf they brought here killed the last few of the original native wolf populations. I think it is more a case of do gooders and the laws of unintended consequences.

seeing more elk the last few years over here....paradise valley...…..bob

…


no schidt…..bob

In Oregon we can’t legally hunt them, yet....AK, MT, WY and ID have hunting seasons for them...Has that helped reduce and manage wolf numbers or are the wolves protected boundaries so large, you rarely see any while hunting the small areas open for taking a wolf?
😎

Ifurbar…….to be honest the 20,000 elk was probably to much for carrying capacity anyway.....but the wolves got busy in a hurry.

the ranches around here are where a lot of elk hang out.....a lot....also in my 30 years here.....some places let you hunt....but not that many.

have seen quite a few elk riding in pickups this year......lot of deer in the valley also......bob

There's so many theories, thoughts and misinformation out there...I have no idea how to make heads or tails of it all.

I do think this map of Idaho's elk objectives does paint a picture....as the areas below objective are close to where the reintroduction in '95 occurred and where the packs are still largely concentrated.



I also have it on good authority that IDFG lowered their elk number objectives somewhat recently....so areas that are now meeting objectives were below objective just a few years ago...why they did that can be theorized to fit both "sides" of the argument, I guess.

As law abiding hunters, we are allowed to hunt animals, that are deemed surplus....to the overall game population. Wolves hunt year round and literally "eat" into these surplus numbers. This ratio changes from year to year, but the constant remains.......human hunters are managed due to population trends, wolves are not.

I moved to Idaho in 1995, the same year the first wolves were introduced, and things have changed greatly because of them, especially after 2000, when the wolf numbers were high enough to really impact moose, elk, and deer populations.

I have a copy of the 1995 hunting regs, from when I moved to Idaho, that I keep in my truck. When people say things haven't changed that much, I let them review the old regs, and have them compare "then" vs "now", in their favorite area, for their favorite game animal. That ALWAYS leave them quiet and pondering the changes that have occurred, without further discussion. It's amazing how quickly we forget how "things were", pre wolf introduction.

Andy3

I agree Bob, hopefully things will find a balance and improve.... not many people trapping and hunting predators anymore, so I have limited expectations.
As far as hunting access that is another whole can of worms.... think I will sit that discussion out...

Most all of ID and MT have no areas closed to hunting wolf during their seasons (other than national parks and the like)...though some areas have quotas. The vast majority of WY classifies wolves as predators, and can be shot at any time of the year in any number. WY does have a few areas where they're classified as a game animal where a tag is needed and both a season and a quota is in place.

That said they're tough to hunt and I have seen no indication that those shot by sport hunters or trapped (or aerial gunned/poisoned) has had any overall effect. When the gov does take an entire pack out I am sure it does alleviate the pressure on deer/elk/moose/cattle, but only until another pack moves in to that area.

Beav, my corner of the state has no boundaries and I can buy up to 5 wolf tags. Filling them is the trick. A few savvy trappers limit out, but my best guess you could count them on one hand.

Some things no one has mentioned:

How did the moose and elk survive before the white man got here and the elk and moose had no "protection"?

Was the number of Elk and Moose "when I used to hunt them" the right number, or just the number that was there?

What does the browse/graze look like now that there are fewer herbivores?

Are any of you hunters younger and do any of you hunt harder than you did in the good old days?

Kind of. In my area, it does lead to a decrease in population but also changes the deer behavior when wolf population increases. Deer are much less likely to frequent roads, beaches, and larger openings when wolves are around. So, the traditional methods of finding deer doesn’t work well in a higher wolf abundance and people cry wolf.

1. The elk and moose were not confined by highways subdivisions etc.... back then they could relocate to another area, until the wolves showed up, they kept moving.
2, Don't know.... it was a more productive endeavor back then
3. Fewer herbivores? as many cattle as ever for modern times... people gotta eat
4. I can only speak for myself and I don't hunt near as hard as I used to. Also seems the younger generation finds it too hard. And with fewer animals it is harder. They need some success to stay engaged.
The anti's plan is working perfectly. But you being a lib cannot connect any of those dots

That is interesting Calvin, around here it seems to push them into civilization. Adapt and survive

Hunting hard? 😎

Damn flatlanders.....

Sycamore wouldn't know a Roosevelt from a Holstein.....

TI,
I hoped you’d come along...I’ve always felt your background, hunting abilities and willingness to shape the information from F&G back into a realistic and truthful model of what’s actually taking place insightful. Thanks....😎

Or a mountain from a mole hill....LMAO 😎

The mosse are having a hell of a hard time in MN but not sure it is due to the expanding wolf population. Yes. Minnesota has always had wolves but there are far more than there were 40 years ago when I started tramping around northern MN.

No problem Beav...always willing to share what I have learned and observed...

Way back in 2009 I was hunting Montana elk for (I believe) the 31st or 32nd day, when I happen across the first two elk I had seen that year...when this guy came running out after them.


I never did see another elk that season. I have seen a couple elk in that same area since, so maybe that area is "balancing"....if one believes in such a thing. I've called a few wolves in since, goofed up on some other incidental opportunities, plus had a guy I was with shoot another big male that I called in, but I haven't killed one since. I don't particularly care for them, but they're here to stay so I've learned to tolerate them and see them as another critter to hunt.

Awesome trophy Ti.....

No wolves were harmed in my pic...... notice woof howler.... I tried

It seems Lewis and Clark had to eat 190 dogs and a dozen horses while traveling through pristine wolf country and at that almost starved.

Disagree , when unintended consequences turn into areas of wiped out game animals , ranchers losing large sums of money , folks pets killed , hunters hounds killed , do-gooders would except that there are enough wolves . But no they fight every step of the way and spend untold amounts of money to protect the wolves above all else .

I use to keep up with the wolf stuff - hunted them a lot when i lived in Idaho 07-08 .

There have been wolves in many of the places that just now States are admitting they're there .
A wolf from the Boise pack was killed by a vehicle south of Pendleton , OR. in 2006 , there were pics of wolves in central Washington state around the same time .
There was a confirmed wolf in colorado about that time period also .
Thread on LRHunting - people see and hear wolves in missouri , my younger brother Tony & I saw a wolf in sw Arkansas in 1979 - plain as day . It crossed the road in front of us and when i slowed to look at it - it stopped and stared back at us from a pasture maybe 80 yards away , got a good long look at it .
SW Idaho corner to NE California corner is only a couple of hundred miles distance - there were wolves in the Ohyhees desert in 2007 I saw a desert mule deer kill with fresh tracks as big as my hand . Ranchers in the area told me - there had always been wolves down there , skip and a hop from Nevada . How long would take a wolf or wolves to scout out that distance ?
There are a lot more wolves in a lot more places that only the people who have seen them know about .

They certainly don’t help. Though locally I put more damage on the deer population to black bears. Bears are crafty at catching those fresh dropped fawns.

Oh and the road guys shooting does and then wondering why they don’t see deer on the roads anymore.

Hastings,

That part of Lewis and Clark's journey was along a major Indian route over the Rockies. There were few game animals not because of wolves, but because of Indians, who constantly traveled the route during late spring, summer and early fall. They not only hunted along the route, but the horses they rode (and used to pack their gear and game), grazed the hell out of it. I've read various versions of the L&C journals several times, and cannot remember them seeing many (if any) wolves in that area.

Meanwhile, they had no difficulty living off wild game when they journeyed up and down the Missouri River through the plains--where they saw plenty of wolves near the very abundant bison herds. Along with buffalo, they also saw and ate plenty of deer and elk. However, some of today's anthropologists and historians suspect the abundant plains game was partially due to recent epidemics that killed off thousands of the major predators of the plains, the members of various tribes.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if wolves have already reached the washing/oregon 'wetside' a lot of cover to sneak around in there . They're confirmed in Northern California - so why wouldn't they be ?

Another wolf expert chimes in

Do the wolves in Alaska push the deer , elk and moose and caribou from the back country down to private ranches and sub divisions like in the lower 48? Can you hunt, trap a wolves in Alaska? Can you hunt wolves in Oregon or Washington or Minnesota?

Comparing Alaska to states like Washington,human pop 7.5 million or Michigan population over 10 million is a bit ridiculous. Maybe sycamore, who zero experience with wolves, can chime in

Mike,
2 years ago while deer hunting on the Oregon Coast I spotted what I initially thought was a large coyote at 200 or so yards. I got my glass on it, and aside from a heavy, thick coat, which isn’t uncommon for our coyotes to be sporting in late October, I could tell this animal looked different than any coyote I have seen across multiple states I’ve hunted them.

This animal was tall from the ground to its shoulders, I guess based on the small Christmas Tree in the background to be something in the neighborhood of 2.5-3’ft tall...It’s snout was broader and blocked, not long and sharp, and ears were short compared to any coyote I’ve seen or shot.

I actually thought I was looking at someone’s pet husky dog. Coloration was a mixed coat of light brown with grayish white. I watched it as it stood looking at something for a couple minutes before it disappeared into cover.

If it was a coyote, it was the biggest, strangest looking dog I’ve ever seen...😎

Oregon is a no on wolf hunting...😎

Beaver10: Be careful with this topic.
I will say this after Hunting Montana every year (for both Big Game and Varmints!) since the late 1960's the Wolves (and other predators like Cougars, Coyotes, Black bear and Grizzled Bears!) have "affected" the Big Game herds immensely in the last 16 - 18 years.
The "predators" have changed the habits and haunts of Elk SEVERELY - don't let anyone tell you they haven't!
The Elk though are smart and they have of recent taken up residence, for much of each year, on private ranches - I surmise this affords the Elk SOME protection from the marauding transplanted Canadian Wolves and other predators!
Sadly the Bighorn Sheep, Mule Deer and Moose populations were/are unable to attain this protection.
Our Moose here in SW Montana have been absolutely decimated!
I Hunted a particular mountain ranges foothills for well over 20 years and would see 150 to 400 Mule Deer in a late season day - introduce more predators and the same mountain ranges foothills are now "special draw tags" and its rare to see even 10 Mule Deer in these same traditional haunts!
Sad.
There are simply WAY to many predators in Montana - PERIOD!
And I could give a Grizzly crap less what any outdoor writer or "game department official" burps up about this issue.
Yeah there are lots of Elk still in some areas but they have taken refuge for the most part on private (non-Huntable!) land in western Montana!
As long as the fish, wildlife and parks liberals are protecting predators I don't see this situation improving for the traditional public lands Hunters.
Another example for your consideration - I also Hunt Elk during the rut in SW and western Montana - and have done so for MANY decades.
I had a secret area in Montana (that Dwight Shue and Larry Jones also Hunted on occasion!) for years I would see 2 to 10 mature Bulls A DAY during the height of the rut - the transplanted Wolves became so abundant (active) in this area that the Elk literally disappeared from it!
Last time I Hunted there for 8 straight days I never saw an ELK! Not one, not a cow not a calf not a spike bull!
Since then I have traveled there numerous times to double check my unbelievable new reality - still haven't seen a Bull there!
BUT... lots of Wolf sign.
We (as Hunters!) worked long and paid hard and dearly to rebuild our Moose, Bighorn Sheep and Elk herds only to have their numbers dramatically affected and Hunting opportunities diminished by transplanted Canadian Wolves.
I say this to the liberal feds and the liberal game department administrators who brought us even MORE predators from Canada - "thanks for nothing and doublephuck YOU"!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Shortly after re-introduction, when a thread such as this was started they would call us bar stool experts, kooks, lazy bad hunters etc.....

Now we have the advantage of hindsight and other states are experiencing wolves... with the same results, VG you are absolutely correct and never trust people with agenda's, they make a living off of this stuff.

Grizzly bears have had a small army of government biologist, experts etc... making a good living off the issue... wolves no different

Thanks, I've never actually read any L&C journals. But I wonder if the Indian population along the trail over the Rockies hadn't also been decimated by epidemics thereby reducing their impact on the game. And from what I can tell at Yellowstone it seems bison are not much affected by wolves, I'm guessing they put up too much of a fight, but the elk population seems to have been worked over. And even though the journals didn't mention wolves much if any don't you think there were as many there as the habitat could support. And also didn't the deer and elk population show up in pretty substantial numbers between the demise of the wolves (and Indians) and the reintroduction of the wolves. Of course I imagine game management policies of the 1900s helped a bunch. Having never hunted up there I am just asking because I don't know. We do travel and sight see a good bit in Montana and Idaho but I never wanted to have to deal with hauling a bunch of fresh meat back to Louisiana.

Here is a good read

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/h...mise_wolves_coronation_island_alaska.pdf

Bears get in the neighborhood of 40% of the fawns in multiple studies.

Always interesting to see what happens to critter populations when someone really lays into wolves on a particular island. Night and day really. Get even 5 or 6 wolves on an island and deer populations plummet. We have the luxury of watching it happen. Those year that we had a tiny wolf quota killed us.

Thanks Calvin that was an interesting read.... the conclusion wolves and deer cannot both survive on an island.....
In the lower 48 we aren't on an island and when the wolves wipe out a local population they are free to move on... and they do.
Then the destruction starts all over ..... and around it goes.
Before freeways and subdivisions etc..... the animals had a chance to flee. The brilliant biologist failed to foresee this unintended consequence....

In my state we have spent millions of taxpayer dollars on the " Red Wolf" which is factually a Wolf / Coyote hybrid, however the feds and local goonies say it is an endangered species. Hail, we have a 5000 sq foot modern brick building called the SeeWee Red Wolf Exhibit where touristas can come look at them , provide charity blah blah.

Further in the last 15 years the coyote has made it to the same coastal forests where this so called wolf was released. Now we have yotes that touch 45 lbs and have coats like NGs.

Our deer and turkey population started a very evident down trend about one year after the yote gained its foot hold and then dropped to an all time low in the last five years and is still suffering. USFS, USFW and SCNDR biologist call this reaching a balance. F that balance. Where will conservation be when there are no hunters because there is no game?

Fed and state agencies response : Nah can't be the yotes fault, you need to learn to live with them.

A buddy of mine out west looses stock weekly. He says this is his only resort during calving season, dip a chicken thigh hang on a low hanging branch or carve a point on low hanging limb and push thigh onto limb about 4' off the ground. Keeps his personal dogs locked up for several weeks after. Freaking sad when it comes to that for sure.

https://store.doyourownpestcontrol....mmTtYJ2_nwulmQ5KkCWi-a2dILUaAjcCEALw_wcB

In my humble opinion, the introduction of the Canadian Timberwolf in 95 was the worst example of "those that make the rules don't have to live under them" I have ever seen. The Elk and Deer populations hadn't seen a wolf in close to a century. Then, a 100 pound appetite with feet shows up and discovers a smorgasboard that doesn't run away soon enough.

Ok, let’s look at why our forefathers found it necessary to annihilate the wolves? Without bleeding into bison killing for army consumption and profiteering off the skins as a way to sidetrack this conversation. Or, wholisticly discussing market hunting that hurt game animals of fur and feather before hunting seasons and regulations were put in place.

What were the wolves doing that caused them to become public enemy #1...Dare say the same thing they’re doing currently?

Personally, I’m a believer that man screws shît up consistently with both good intentions and with deceptive means designed to appease people and organizations where money is contributed.

I worked with the “Free Willy foundation” on a cabling infrastructure construction project...I happened to meet a couple of the fishes biologists who worked the tank with Willy...They both said this fish is dead once it would be released because the “Non-Profit” organizers were raking in millions in donations, paying out huge salaries to the top runners of the Free Willy organization and there was no way the fish could not be released.

Both biologist said the campaign should have been Save Willy and keep him in captivity...The fish was found dead shortly after being released...Hey, but some made a lot of money collecting donations. 😎

Can't help but notice BuzzH hasn't shown up......
In other threads he loves to brag on how much money he makes......

I don't know about that, ladies.

My front porch is at 7000 feet, which kind of makes you girls the flatlanders.

I do yard work at higher elevation than you hunt!

Kind of a double-whammy on fubes, being a born and bred prune-picker on top of that.

Around here, the impacts I see are from increased population of humans, hunting in groups (2-3 permits, 10 people in camp, and UTVs up and down every road.

Long term drought is not helping wildlife or cows either.

this year was a long, wet winter, one of the best in years, followed by one of the driest summers ever. Cool season grasses rebounded, warm season grasses almost disappeared.

Good hunters are still finding the animals.

Syc,
Weather has and always will play a role in animal movement during hunting hours. Changing up tactics to improve odds of success can be done over a quick strategy meeting amongst the crew knowing there’s animals available requiring only a change of hunting techniques...

Our crew just had to do this finding uncommonly warm, dry weather for a 2nd year in a row. We should have had 2 bulls down in 4 days of hunting instead of only one. It was a mistake a pard made. The key is animals in the area to hunt.

I wouldn’t say someone is a poor hunter, if the hunting grounds they’ve spent much of their life scouting and hunting becomes a barren landscape for furred animals after an increase of wolf presence in the area...Further, you take an area that had historically held an abundance of game and now doesn’t. How do you expect a hunter to change tactics on non-existent animals, or move to another hunting ground, especially when hunting a boundary unit that prevents you from pulling stakes and moving 30-40 miles into a new area?

You can’t...You’re stuck hunting the unit. Over the years I’ve had to make several changes in hunting tactics, mostly to follow the animals, but also to get away from the increase in hunting pressure from individuals who lack area knowledge and screw up a well planned hunt for myself and crew....

But this conversation is about the impact of wolves, and to a degree the added pairs of teeth they bring to some areas already holding predators that enjoy dining on ungulates. They certainly don’t make it any easier, and without living within or nearby the hunting grounds you plan to hunt. It can be very disappointing to arrive days before the opener only to discover wolf tracks and no game.

Lastly, living at 7k elevation would be difficult for me to hunt being I spend most of my life at sea level. Congratulations to you running your weed eater without getting winded. I would hire my yard work out, so I could concentrate on working a heavy pack running up and down your mountains to be ready to hunt...😎