Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles 358 Win Pre-64 Fwt

I traded for a .243 Pre-64 that looked pretty good until I peeked down the barrel with the Hawkeye. Very clean, but lots of pitting..

Oh well, sometimes pitted guns shoot. Well, not this one and I loaded a series of known .243 accuracy loads. I don't need a 2" .243...

So, it's off to JES in Oregon for boring to .358 Winchester. The muzzle OD is .565" which when you subtract .358", leaves only .1" or so barrel wall thickness. Jes said that would be fine, so I'm sure it will be.

His cost is $250 which includes return postage. Postage on my end with $750 ins was around $35 or so, ground UPS, leaving this PM to get there Monday. And he says he can get it done in a week.

Now, that's pretty amazing. I've never heard of a gun he's done not shooting pretty well.

So, I'm excited about a new round at half the cost of a new barrel in a light, handy rifle.

Reason for going .35 cal, I don't have one. I have a 6.5 Creed, so don't need a .260. Have a 7-08, a 308, .a 338-06 so don't need to duplicate any of those calibers. That leaves the .358 by default, and wanting to leave the M-70 set up as a SA Fwt. in the original stock.

I've been reading up on the .358 Win and it seems pretty versatile. It'll shoot .38 pistol bullets on up to 225 gr. rifle bullets. I know, 250's, but I'm not going there.

And I have nearly every powder mentioned for that round.

Will report. It's like Christmas in Aug for a Loony.

I'm sure you guys understand...

DF

The M70 Fwt and the .358 go together like peas and carrots!

I'm about to send him something too after chatting on the phone today. He was very amenable to questions.

Just curious: did you send the whole thing or just the barreled action? Shipping seems like it would be much cheaper doing the latter.

What twist rate are you going with? I had my .358 done with a 1 in 12" so it would shoot the heavier bullets well. I shot 3 Hornady 250 gr Spirepoints into one single hole that we only about .380" edge to edge. Now that I have to use non-lead bullets here is CA, it shoots both the 225 gr and 200 gr TTSX bullets very well. I used John Barsness's loads with TAC that closely approximate .35 Whelen factory loads.

Most loading data for the .358 is kept low due to some lever actions like the Win 88 and Savage 99 being made in that chambering. A strong bolt action can go hotter. I used mine in Africa on plains game including kudu and Wildebeest.

Would that be like Jenny and Forrest?

I never asked about twist, guess he'll go with std twist, whatever that is.

I'm not trying to go heavy as those bullets are pretty slow, probably mostly shoot 180's and 200's.

BTW, what is the std. .358 Win twist?

DF


Edited to add, found this link

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5220834/

I'll need to find out what twists he does. I guess it's a choice between 12 and 14. We'll see what he says.

Just the barreled action.

And, you're right. Much cheaper.

DF

I have a standard grade M/70 that I had rebored by Randall Redman 25-30yrs. ago, for years 225gr. bullets were my whitetail load. Having had rotator cuff surgery on both shoulders I have been shooting 180 & 200gr. bullets. I found a Ken Waters load using Hornady Inter-lok 200gr. RN bullets and IMR 3031 that will cloverleaf 3 shots @ 100yds. I have used this load on the last three whitetails, the one bullet that I recovered was perfectly mushroomed and retained 66% of its original weight. If I were to have a Featherweight rebored to .358 I would definately stick to 180 & 200gr. bullets, in addition I added a Pachmyer Deceleator pad to my rifle which made it much more comfortable to shoot from the bench while developing loads.

Thanks. If you happened to take a photo before you sealed up and are willing to share, I'm interested in how you packed it. The trigger hanging there makes me nervous. But I'm also assuming he doesn't want to deal with tons of reassembly.

It's in a brown truck by now.

I cut a .223 case to make a tube long enough to support the rear action screw and the trigger guard. The Pre-64 doesn't have one piece bottom metal, it's in pieces. The attached bottom metal protects the trigger.

I had a double box from McM that a stock came in. I padded the barreled action in bubble wrap, wraped the bolt separately and put it in a small box inside the larger box.

Then dropped the inner box into the outer box. It should do well if UPS gorillas don't run over it with a truck..

Insure it and let it go.

DF

TAC and 200 -225 gr bullets. I like the 225 Woodleighs

DF, a 10 or 12 twist works real well with the .358’s. My two Whelens both shoot the 250’s fine even with the 16 twist but I’d prefer more RPMs myself, especially with the all copper bullets. I don’t believe the extra RPMs will go to waste assisting opening the copper bullets.

I have two 35 cal barrels waiting to find a donor like yours. Ones a 9.5 and the other a 10. No harm in getting extra and I’ve not seen any detriment to it.

I’m pretty jealous of the little 358 Featherweight you’re having made up. I’m betting he won’t stamp it unless you ask him to. I’ve sent a couple P64’s to him and he’s left them unstamped since he says a nicer stamp job could be found than his usual method.

I am looking forward to seeing what you do with the old rifle. I love breathing a little life into those old rifles and gettin a somewhat rare chambering is pretty fun as well.

Oh, the old P64 35 Remingtons were 1-16 twist along with the 358’s. At least I’m pretty sure on that.

The Browning BLRs are 1-12 or 1-14 I believe. Don’t hold me to it.

That's pretty cool. I believe you'll enjoy working with that one.

My .358 was rebored from .308.
It's shot about anything I've fed it reasonably well but with the 200 gr TTSX (and TAC), it turned into an exceptional shooter. Me, not so much.

An old friend and mentor had an original model 70 featherweight in 358 and used it almost exclusively as his elk rifle for 40+ years. He liked to still hunt them in the heavy timber and was quite successful at it. The bullet he used most was the Speer 250 grain spitzer. He often used the old cliche, "you could eat the bullet hole." Having used 250 grain bullets in a 35 Whelen to take a few caribou, I'd have to say the old cliche is accurate.

Lots of good bullet choices so go forth and make meat.

BLR .358 is twisted 1-12".

Nice project. Though not a Fwt, my 358 Win pre-64. The one in the middle.

Nice guns.

For you, as always.

And critters to show...

I guess I'll go 12 twist with mine, which is probably what he would have done, had I not mentioned it.

DF

The Fwt, now with even less barrel steel (weight) is gonna be pretty light.

How bad do these things kick? Mine has a brown, solid Decelerator pad, which should help some.

I'm re-cutting the checkering, will have the stock ready to glass bed when JES gets his part done.. I removed the old bedding.

DF

What is the minimum bore size that he will do? I thought I heard nothing smaller than .338....?
Just curious.....

This is gonna be a bad sumbitch.. Post pics

Gunswizard, did your bullets hit the ground at 100 yards? Be Well, RZ.

WTF kind of azzinine question is that ?

I love my BLR takedown 358. For white tails I shoot either 180 or 200 grain bullets for hogs I move up to 225 and 250 grain round noses. Both give DRT performance. Have yet to recover any of them so don’t know about retained weight or mushroom diameter. It does what I am looking for which is short copious blood trails. Very little if any bloodshot meat. I am jealous of your pre64 featherweight. Guess I’ll just have to keep using my BLR 😁

Recoil is about on a par with 30-06 shooting 180 grain bullets. My BLR has a nice soft sorbothane pad that soaks it up pretty well. With 250 grain bullets it is stout but I would say no worse than your 338-06 with 250 grains.

Apparently you don’t know RZ very well.

It isn't too darned bad. Recoil is so subjective, if the Fwt stock fits you okay then I would think it would be really easy on you. I've been stuck on 225 Partitions with 748 for 2450 FPS in my BLR. Should make a slick little killer once you have it done.

Appears the RZ is another of the forum's d ouchenozzles.

From another thread for those unfamiliar:

I don't think recoil is bad at all and I'm not particularly fond of recoil.
A gentleman above mentioned 30.06 with 180's - that's probably pretty close, maybe a smidge less IMO.

I originally had a Brown Precision stock on mine so it was pretty light - I guess it depends on weight of a projectile you want to shoot and stock fitment.

Never an issue for me with 225's and the 200's are a bit more pleasant.

The MJ meme cracked me up. LMAO

LOL, you're going to have a little handful of dynamite DF, cool stick, if you load it to full potential, it's going to buck a little.

my Ruger stainless syn 358 with 200gr TTSX's at 2700 is a hell of a thumper.

edit: RL-10 will take you all the way.

FFL sent from JES per my request for UPS.

I had already printed a copy of his web site, showed the UPS guy (who BTW knows me), told him it was a barrel being sent for a re-bore. He seemed OK with that.

Gun was already on a brown truck before I got the FFL, so I didn't need it. But you never know with those guys, which one shows up at the counter.

I replied to the JES email, said I'd go with 12 twist.

He gets the package Monday. I could have it back in a couple of weeks. Seems the UPS trip takes almost as long as the JES turn around time. We'll see.

DF

Just so happen to have RL-10 and TAC, getting 200's from several makers to try. Have a box of 180 Speer FP's used for a friend's 35 Remington. Bet those would make an impact bumped up to .358 speed. The .358, reportedly, does interesting things with pistol bullets. I have the 170 Gold Dot and the 180 XTP for my 10mm. May try those just for grins.

Another loony project.

I'm sure you understand...

DF

I'd bet those Swift A-Frames for a pistol would be wicked hard on a buck out to a fairly decent distance. Not likely to tear the bullets up and man, they'd plow a swath.

Congratulations on your .358. Back in the '80's I had a push feed Featheweight rebarreled with a .358 Shaw barrel, a #3 contour, the slimiest contour offered for a .358. Well, it isn't a Featherweight any longer but, balances nicely and I've shot deer and my last bull elk with it. I used a Speer 250 Hot Cor running 2353 fps on the elk for total penetration and he was down and dead in about 25 yards. It looked like 5 gallons of blood on the ground from where he was shot to where he fell.
I run a lot of cast bullets through it from 150 grains to 250 grains and the Lyman 358156 over 10 grains of Unique can't be matched for fun! Like shooting a big .22. Full power loads are similar to a .30'06 ie: not bad at all.

That’s a cool rig Joe. Looks like it sees a bunch of use.

Interesting, beretzs, will have to check that out.

Thanks, Joe. Great info and what I was wanting to know.

The .358 Win has been a sleeper. Seems a lot of .358 shooters are "coming out of the closet" so to speak, once it's mentioned...

Just kidding about the closet, but made the point

DF

Not a 358 shooter but I do have a 3 rifle fondness for the 9 X 57. They're often compared and in the old rifles that's probably about right. New rifles and handloads the extra 6mm of the 57mm case tells a different story. Be that as it my, if I was ignorant of the 9 X 57 the 358 would be on my list of those to own. I've really become fond of the 35's....or 9mm's.

I see stuff on line, shooting pistol bullets in the .358 Win.

I can see cast bullets, .358 diameter.

But some have data for 9mm bullets and jacketed .38 bullets. Those are usually sized .356, .357, less than .358. I wonder how accurate an undersized bullet will be in a .358 bore.

Just wondering, not planning to get that crazy.

May try 158 gr. .358 cast revolver bullets, which reportedly shoot pretty well. Evidently lot of powder options with those.

DF

If it is soft enough for the pistol I will guess it will obturate in the rifle. It has worked for me with heavily lubed 148 gr wadcutters crimped pretty well in the 358 neck. The loads were intended for small game in emergencies and not fired over 50 yards. Probably about 20 yards and subsonic loads with green dot or red dot. Be Well, RZ.

Gunswizard you have said the 358 Winchester is a short range round. Do you want a quote from the other assinine comment you made???????????????????????????????

You kinda hard on poor ole G-Wiz...

You actually got me feeling sorry for him...

DF

Awwww shucks. It's the gunwriters' fault. RZ. Too late to close the gate. Guess I don't play well with others. I would have said the same to his face. Working at a prison for 20+ years hasn't helped. Be Well, RZ.

RZ please feel free to GFY.

Name calling sounds childish doesn't it? Be Well, RZ.

Nice looking rifle!

I stopped by UPS to ask about sending a barreled action. They panicked and said I needed to call the main distribution center and take any gun stuff there. (Technically they're right for a receiver but not other parts.) I also need to ship some ammo, so asked about that. The desk kid almost cried. That made me think I didn't want to deal with them if something went wrong. The lady at USPS, on the other hand, was very cool about it. $40 with $600 insurance. Arrives Monday. Hard to argue with that.

I have been shipping using my local Fed Ex. Prices are all about the same and they've done well on the back and forth. Never a question, they weigh it, Stamp it, and send it.

I'm looking at a Mexican Mauser that the late Eric Ching had built. I am not sure of the price yet but I think they got the I will take it. As soon as it is in my hands I will show it to you guys. Even G-wizz. God Bless you all, RZ.

Dirtfarmer have any problems with Laura? We lost phone and electricity and had many limbs in the yard but no real damage. The wind was worse than with Katrina.

Dirt farmer, great choice on the 358. I've put away a lot of moose meat with one. A jes rebore sealed the deal on the two biggest bulls I've shot to date. A 250 grainer at 2400 fps. That's a recipe for penetration on the big stuff, with good range to 300 yds

Is there really a better combination in a hunting rifle that can literally do it all for NA big game? I’m working on a full stock version currently (picked up the barreled action that had the barrel cut back to 19.5” on here quite some time ago and have finally had the time to do some work on it - I’ll post some pictures one of these days) that handles like a dream.

Your going to really like that one DF!!

PennDog

Thank you Pat. And it shoots great also.

10 gr. of Unique should be the ticket in .358, I shoot 15 gr. in my Whelen with cast bullets from 200-225gr. it's a very accurate load.

IIRC, the pre-64 Winchester in .358 was 1 in 12" as are my Browning BLR and Savage M99. Ruger went with 1 in 16" in the M77. I have all the above mentioned except the pre64 Winny and note that the Browning and Savage out shoot the two Ruger M77s by a country mile.
Paul B.

About the same. Lines down all over Alexandria, CLECO power plant took a hit. So, it could be a while getting power back. Crews from everywhere here working long hours.

I'm running a 5KW Honda, which takes care of refrig (2), freezers (2), and fans, not big A/C. House has lots of French doors with screens, so we can get some hot ventilation... Generator runs computers, TV's etc.

I visited my son and family in Lafayette. Not much damage, he never lost power. While there, I filled up every fuel can I had regardless of what it had been used for. Got 30 gal Ethanol free gas which will run the Honda for about a week or so.

DF

Yeah without genny would have lost freezer and refrigerator. We threw away all of Mom's thawed food this morning. Not complaining...we have been blessed.

Don't limit yourself twist wise. Go 1:12. It will still do well with lighter bullets. That's what I had my gun smith do with my 9.3x62. I shoot 270 grain Speers in it for deer but if I want to shoot something heavier I'm confident it will stabilize them. If you want to shoot 180s-200s just make ot a .300 WSM or a .338 something. Otherwise you're missing the point of a .358.

Agree with 12 twist and that's what I told JES in an email. He gets the barreled action tomorrow.

DF

Had JeS do one for me last year. Rem 700 243 sps is now a 18.5 “ barreled 358. Duracoated the entire action, barrel and bolt. Anything east of the Mississippi it’s my go to. Out west where things might go longish it’s not my first choice but I wouldn’t just stay home is that was all I had.

MM

PS. It’s a shooter as per norm for the work JES does.

Great, enjoy your beautiful rifle.

I did a 1-10 9.3 and it shoots like crazy. No harm in turning them big devils.

I don't plan to use 250's in the .358 Win, as IMO, there are better options for that round. I think 250's would be a better choice for 35 Whelen, etc., rounds with more powder capacity.

I think 12 twist will spin 225's and lighter fast enough.

DF

For sure DF. We are all probably in nearly the same boat that we have 20 rifles for 20 different things we have in our brain. 12 will work excellent though.

Yep 12" twist will be gtg. My BLR is 12 and M70 is 14. 250 grain does fine in my 14" twist.

Thinking about loads for the .358 Win. I've had great results with the CEB Raptor bullets, esp. the 135 gr. out of my .308. See this link and my report. https://cuttingedgebullets.com/308-135gr-er-extended-range-raptor

What about pushing a CEB 150 gr. Raptor out of the .358 Win at really high speeds, like 3,000 fps +.?

Speer shows their 158 gr. JHP pistol bullet at 2,888 fps over 48 gr. RL-7 I think the tougher, more streamlined 150 gr. Raptor would be a screaming machine at hyper velocity.

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/338-150gr-er-extended-range-raptor

Then, there's the CEB 160 gr. .358, another choice. https://cuttingedgebullets.com/358-160gr-er-extended-range-raptor

CEB's are expensive, but how many does one actually shoot at game? Practice with cheaper stuff, save high priced bullets for critters.

More Loony stuff...

DF

I bet they’d be screamers!

The 178 Shock Hammer might be something as well for typical 358 sorta work.

May check those out.

Just no load data. I think one could start with 52 gr TAC, max 180 gr load, to try with 150 or 160 gr bullets, chrono. and adjust. I think 3 K fps and more should be obtainable without pressure signs.

Based on what I’ve seen CEB Raptors do, those loads should be dynamite on hogs and deer.

DF

I’d bet so. They’d have to be dynamite with all of that frontal area touching down.

I just read on line (makes it true, of course) that the JES 3 groove doesn't build pressure like conventional rifling, less friction. Reportedly it gives up to 100 fps extra. Now, that sounds pretty good. Too good? Hmmm...

Anyone with info to confirm or refute that claim?

It also seems that a couple of top powders are RL-10 and TAC. I have both, of course...

One poster said the 160 CEB Raptor can be driven 3K fps out of a 22" bbl. Claimed very broad and deep wounding, "almost too much for small deer and hogs"... His opinion, 200 SP and 225 NPT were the "sweet spots" for the .358 Win. Will check those out.

I'm excited about this round. It may be my most versatile round, handling cast and jacketed pistol bullets all the way up to serious heavies.

I have three scopes in the shop, all with Weaver rings. I'm thinking about having at least two, maybe all three sighted for different type loads, just swap them out instead of re-sighting for different type rounds. Two 4200 Bushnells, (3-9x40 and 2.5-10x50), a Leupold VX-3 1.5-5x20. Interesting possibilities. The 4200's tend to have shorter ER's, maybe not the best option for hard kicking rounds. Not sure how hard this rifle is gonna kick with heavy bullets. It will be relatively light weight, so we'll just have to see how it "shakes out".

DF

Not sure how well the 3 groove compares to the others but all of mine are 3 grooves and attain normal speeds with no fuss. They’ve been pretty easy barrels to get smoothed out as well DF. I’ve literally just shot them and once they hit around 50-75 rounds I’ll clean em down to steel and DBC them. After that life has been pretty easy.

I think you’d be hard pressed to find a Bullet that doesn’t work well in a 358 for deer. It just doesn’t have the juice to tear most of them apart like a Whelen or bigger magnum could. The lighter bullets seem pretty neat though. I wouldn’t mind trying a few thru my 358, just for grins.

I just sent an email to CEB, asking for info on terminal performance, their 150 and 160 Raptors in the .358 Win, quoting the source noted above regarding "almost too much for small deer and hogs". I reminded them about my review of their 135 gr. .308 ER Raptor with pictures.

I also asked if they had feedback from their customers regarding those two bullets in .358 Win and/or .35 Whelen.

We'll report any info they send.

DF

Good idea using multiple scopes. That's what I did for my BLR since I am using cast and jacketed so I don't have to resight when the mood strikes to change.

Loony issues:

Of the three scopes mentioned, I'm thinking one for high performance hunting loads with 200 and 225 SP's, 225 NPT's, then one for pistol bullet loads, maybe one for light, fast CEB 150 & 160 gr Raptors, 180 gr. Speers...

Matching scope per load category, the Leupold with longer ER for the kickers makes sense, but it won't pick up light like the 4200's, especially the 2.5-10x50, which would be hard to beat in dim light.

Hmmm... Maybe over thinking this, but what's new about that....

This is the Fire, after all...

DF

From CEB:

We have several customers using the 150gr and 160gr Raptors in their .35Cal rifles. We have a crew who took them moose hunting and fully expected them to fail. They performed well beyond what they could’ve ever imagined. Each member of the crew brought home a moose.
We have not received any of their personal load data but I attached here what we’ve sent to them in the past. All loads shown are MAX loads. Let me know if you have any other questions. Thanks!


Nikki Hampton Croasmun
Customer Service/Inside Sales Representative
75 Basin Run Road
Drifting, PA 16834
Office: (814)345-6690 ext 304
Cell: 814-592-6543
nikkicuttingedgebullets.com

They sent QL data for the 150 and 160 Raptors... The max was around 2,800 for both, in fact the 160 edged the 150. RL-7 at or near the top of the list.

If the 160 runs as fast as the 150, why go there?

DF

That sounds like you're going to have some fun DF! I'd bet your rifle is probably on it's way back to you by now.

Can't wait to see it all set up.

Cartridge : .358 Win.
Bullet : .358, 150, CutEdge-ER E150 RAPTOR
Useable Case Capaci: 43.557 grain H2O = 2.828 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.615 inch = 66.42 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 51397 psi, or 354 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 106 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
68 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 85%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Ramshot X-Terminator 106.0 45.6 2.95 2820 93.0 49780 5693 0.983
Alliant Reloder- 7 105.4 40.9 2.65 2801 97.9 51398 5276 0.987 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4227 100.3 36.9 2.39 2777 99.7 51398 4908 0.977 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 5744 92.5 34.7 2.25 2773 98.1 51398 5165 0.980 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 1680 93.3 40.3 2.61 2766 95.0 51398 5208 0.985 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2219 106.0 44.0 2.85 2763 92.0 47146 5566 1.003
Accurate 2200 104.9 42.8 2.77 2762 91.0 51398 5311 0.985 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4227 98.8 36.3 2.35 2747 99.2 51398 4829 0.983 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H335 106.0 46.4 3.01 2744 90.1 46419 5594 1.013
Hodgdon H4198 105.5 39.8 2.58 2729 93.2 51398 5006 0.988 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N120 106.0 38.9 2.52 2719 99.8 45381 4854 1.025
Vihtavuori N110 95.1 32.4 2.10 2697 100.0 51398 4166 1.001 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4198 106.0 38.2 2.47 2692 96.8 44714 5035 1.028
Alliant Reloder-10x 106.0 40.2 2.60 2662 94.6 39762 5338 1.081
Accurate 2230 106.0 45.6 2.96 2628 86.1 41724 5196 1.069
Ramshot TAC 106.0 45.6 2.95 2608 83.8 40593 5264 1.078
Hodgdon H322 106.0 41.3 2.68 2582 88.5 38131 5183 1.099

Cartridge : .35 Whelen
Bullet : .358, 160, CutEdge-ER E160 CU RAPTOR
Useable Case Capaci: 56.706 grain H2O = 3.682 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.084 inch = 78.33 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 50763 psi, or 350 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 100 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
77 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Hodgdon H335 98.5 56.2 3.64 2988 96.9 50763 6621 1.036 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot X-Terminator 96.0 53.7 3.48 2979 97.7 50763 6493 1.042 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-10x 100.0 49.3 3.20 2929 99.5 47997 6172 1.074
IMR 4198 99.9 46.8 3.03 2925 100.0 50763 5723 1.037 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2210 97.9 52.8 3.42 2916 95.0 50763 6249 1.051 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder- 7 94.5 47.8 3.10 2909 99.9 50763 5786 1.059 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot TAC 100.0 56.0 3.63 2906 93.0 46995 6518 1.074
Winchester 748 100.0 56.3 3.65 2891 93.0 44504 6611 1.090
Vihtavuori N120 98.1 46.8 3.03 2887 100.0 50763 5265 1.054 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4227 90.0 43.1 2.79 2872 100.0 50763 5288 1.048 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4198 95.5 46.9 3.04 2869 97.5 50763 5720 1.050 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H322 100.0 50.7 3.29 2867 96.5 44147 6275 1.095

Cartridge : .358 Win.
Bullet : .358, 160, CutEdge-ER E160 CU RAPTOR
Useable Case Capaci: 45.922 grain H2O = 2.982 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.614 inch = 66.40 mm
Barrel Length : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 55398 psi, or 381 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 105 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
92 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 85%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-7 104.2 42.7 2.77 2892 99.7 55398 4504 1.100 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2200 103.9 44.7 2.89 2874 95.1 55398 4705 1.096 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H335 105.0 48.5 3.14 2872 94.8 50223 4991 1.121 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 5744 90.0 36.5 2.36 2870 99.8 55398 4457 1.092 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N125 102.3 40.3 2.61 2869 100.0 55398 4084 1.097 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 1680 95.3 42.1 2.73 2869 98.0 55398 4541 1.097 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4227 99.4 38.5 2.49 2855 100.0 55398 4114 1.093 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4198 104.8 41.7 2.70 2834 96.7 55398 4397 1.100 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4227 98.1 38.0 2.46 2831 100.0 55398 4083 1.098 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N120 105.0 40.6 2.63 2801 100.0 49617 4041 1.140
IMR 4198 105.0 39.9 2.58 2789 99.2 48029 4339 1.145

You're in for a lot of ballistics laboratory testing fun DF, hope you put together a load and smack some deer this fall, pics to please.

Seems TAC and RL-10 are down the QL performance list for 150/160 Raptors. RL-7 is a bit faster and maybe a better choice for those light bullets.

I don't know why I'd want a 150, if the 160 shoots as fast, or maybe faster.

Interesting story from CEB about those moose hunters. I was scratching my head, why someone would go moose hunting with bullets they didn't expect to perform...Maybe CEB footed the bill to test their product. I know you or I wouldn't go on a moose hunt with bullets that we didn't have full confidence in.

At least they seemed to work well, which is no surprise to me from what I've observed with their products.

DF

Just reviewed .358 Win. Speer data, 2,888 fps with 158 gr. JHP pistol bullets over 48 gr. RL-7.

QL says 40.9 gr. RL-7 is near max with the 150 gr. CEB Raptor at 2,801 fps with just 51K psi.

Now, sometimes mono's are stiffer, have more friction/resistance down a bore. But 51K psi isn't a stretch for a .308 case in a Pre-64 action.

I'm thinking they may be leaving something on the table regarding how fast one could push a 150 Raptor out of a 22", 3 groove barrel. I was thinking closer to 3K fps. If 2,800 or such is max for the 150, don't think I need any, with 160's running around 2,892 fps @ 55K psi.

I still think Campfire velocities for those 150's could be way over 2,800. What does QL know...



DF

Follow up from CEB. I asked the tech about the difference between the .358 150 gr. and 160 gr. Raptors..

Answer:

The only real difference is the material. The 150gr is solid brass which is a little more brittle. The petals will snap off in almost a square shape. The 160gr is solid copper, which is softer, so the petals will almost peel back like a banana. Both will cause incredible damage and the copper is approved in areas that require lead free.

Curious why brass isn't Kosher in non-lead areas. Looked it up. Brass can have trace levels of Pb... Gotta really be nit picking to exclude brass from lead free zones. I don't see how there would hardly be enough to measure, must less cause damage. Bureaucrats, no doubt... Give'em an inch.....

DF

DF do you know what the lower velocity is for sure expansion on these bullets?

CEB says 1,500 fps for both the 150 and 160 Raptors.

The brass 150 frags, the copper 160 peels back and mushrooms.

The .308 135 ER Raptor fragged. Not too unlike a mono version of the Partition. Core blows on thru. Copper version more like a soft TTSX.

DF

I did a review of their 135 gr. .308 Raptor on their site with pictures. It was the kind that fragged. See what it did to a hog‘s chest. Check it out.

I think I like the brass version that frags.

DF

Why would someone just want 1 rifle in 358 Win ? You have to have 3 of them




Top - Model 7 SS which is my favorite carry
Middle - 700 Gloss in a McMillan
Bottom - Model 600 Gloss - Love the wood.

Ken

Those are nice, and you're right about that wood. If factory, someone won the Lottery...

What loads are you using?

DF

Loads are mostly the Factory Winchester 200gr SilverTips. These bullets really come apart. Hit a doe right in the front as she looked at me 80 yards away. It knocked her 10 feet backwards and she never got back up. For loads I use Speer 180gr FN, 220gr FN, Hornady 200gr RN, 200gr Rem corlok and Hornady 180gr single shot pistol #3505 and Hornady 200gr SP Interlock. None of the rifles are factory barreled. Favorite powder used is 748 and TAC. Shots are usually around 100 yards or less here NH. I also have a Custom shop Model 7 35 Remington so I never have to worry about running out of bullets. Haven't taken a deer with this rifle yet. 358 was a sleeper years ago but now more and more hunters are building them. It's one heck of a caliber as you can see by my 3 rifles.

Ken

Nice rifles Ken, and exceptional stick on the 600.
I would agree, owned a few myself, got the killin’ work done without nary a hitch

Was out in the shop, re-cutting the checkering on the pre-64 stock while JES is turning the barreled action into a .358 Win.

That beats getting eaten up by mosquitoes trying to clean up Laura debris in my yard.

My bud's hunting property on the Red River was devastated by the storm. Trees down everywhere, box stands smashed, food plots a mess, roads to food plots blocked by multiple downed trees. He as a track hoe working but not sure it'll be up and running for hunting season. No telling how long before he gets power. Sad state of affairs.

Dies, brass and bullets are ordered. May or may not get to deer hunt with it this year. We'll see.

Haven't ordered CEB yet. Will wait for now. Going with 180 Speer (already have for another bud's 35 Rem), 200 Horn SP and will try some pistol bullets. I have a selection of those for my .357's and 10mm's...

Three scope options.

DF

Recut pre-64 recut checkering.

Someone had recut the old checkering, but clogged it up with way too much finish, hadn't cut it deep enough..

Anyway, I didn't like it so I re-did it. One coat of Tru-Oil, all excess brushed out with a tooth brush.

I'll lightly sand the stock and after a couple of coats of Tru-Oil and it'll be done.

Not factory, but it wasn't factory when I got it.

DF