Interesting post from Ilya Koshkin about Formidilosus over on snipershide from 2022... might be old news to you guys but I thought it was interesting.
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I talked to the gentleman in question a couple of years ago. He seemed like a perfectly personable guy, but his results do not jive with mine. I also have the advantage of knowing the return statistics of several manufacturers. What he says about scopes sounds plausible, but does not jive with with what I have seen and what I know about the statistics of this. It also does not jive with the experience of a couple of fairly large armories I interact with for my dayjob.
I have not read everything he wrote over the years, but enough to think a lot of it is at least embellished (hunting stories) or out right silly nonsense (some of the scope tests). He does a good job of making them sound scientific, but it is really too uncontrolled of an experiment to make conclusions out of. I've been involved in designing equipment for durability testing of this stuff and I can tell you right off hand that the way he does it I can make any scope fail or any scope pass. It is as simple as that.
Beyond that, he clearly has a beef with Vortex. I do not know the origin of it, but he has never managed to find a Vortex scope that works. Not once. That's one hell of a lucky streak. He also has never managed to find a Nightforce scope that wasn't flawless, indestructible, etc. Is he a Nightforce shill? Perhaps, but he also likes older LOW designs like the SWFA SS HD and Bushnell LRHS/LRTS. I know with good amount of certainty that he does not have any personal relationship with the folks at SWFA. In other words, I have no idea where his bias comes from, but I know he hates Vortex with a passion.
He either does or did work for the military. Sometimes, he talks about it all the time and other times he goes all secret squirrel about it. I did not bother to check whether that is true or not, but he does like to sound mysterious.
He goes from forum to forum and bashes companies he does not like in more or less the same way. I know that on at least a couple of forums he got paid to stick around, presumably because he spins a nice sounding story and attracts an audience. Since it is always some form of the same nonsense, I sorta stopped paying attention to him a couple of years ago.
In case you were wondering why Form doesn't post here anymore, it looks like Rokslide is probably paying him to post over there.
Thanks for finding that again mcclure. I vaguely remember that post from Koshkin. I started questioning Form's validity when I mentioned the scopes I've used to cull whitetails and hogs. The majority of those failed his tests in spite of them performing well for me. Then he gets into this "I kill game too, thousands (plural) of them over the years. His ego won't allow me to believe a whole lot of what he says. I asked him over on RS not too long ago why he quit posting over here, and his reply was that nobody on 24HCF was interested in learning anything.
Interestingly enough, I just listened to a podcast that Form was on with the Shoot to Hunt guys (Avery owns Rokslide) from a year ago or so, where he emphatically stated that he has never received a single dollar from any firearm industry forum, and was clear that he isn't paid by Rokslide.
Did talk about a bunch of industry guys being butthurt about their scopes being evaluated though. And people being butthurt when their favorite brand doesn't do well. Which, that sounds pretty legit give how the optics forum goes around here.
Thanks for finding that again mcclure. I vaguely remember that post from Koshkin. I started questioning Form's validity when I mentioned the scopes I've used to cull whitetails and hogs. The majority of those failed his tests in spite of them performing well for me. Then he gets into this "I kill game too, thousands (plural) of them over the years. His ego won't allow me to believe a whole lot of what he says. I asked him over on RS not too long ago why he quit posting over here, and his reply was that nobody on 24HCF was interested in learning anything.
Years ago, I met an older guy when I was learning to shoot small bore silhouette. Real pleasant guy, taught me a BUNCH about shooting, and how to reload. The first time he showed me how to get started to reload at his home, I remember being absolutely shocked at the number of rifles he had in the basement. They were everywhere. Hundreds of rifles. Leaning against every wall, in cabinets, on hooks, stacked in pyramids in the corners. I asked him about how he came to have that many rifles (and he had some HIGH class stuff). He'd said before in passing, that he'd killed enough deer, he didn't need to kill one, just to kill one.
As I got to know him better over the years, he talked about the years he'd spent in New Zealand culling deer, and shooting for meat in a few different countries. New Zealand in particular, where he'd shoot 5-20 deer a day, with the only day off he took was Christmas.
I did the math on that once... Made me realize that there are people out there with experience levels that I can't even fully comprehend when it comes to on game bullet performance.
Interestingly enough, I just listened to a podcast that Form was on with the Shoot to Hunt guys (Avery owns Rokslide) from a year ago or so, where he emphatically stated that he has never received a single dollar from any firearm industry forum, and was clear that he isn't paid by Rokslide.
Did talk about a bunch of industry guys being butthurt about their scopes being evaluated though. And people being butthurt when their favorite brand doesn't do well. Which, that sounds pretty legit give how the optics forum goes around here.
Formy (Chuck) lies about his testing and everything else.
Everyone who knows understands he just a liar about everything from scope testing to hunting experience.
It's easy to see for the Players but some of the Fans get sucked in.
The Maven tests are clear examples of his fake testing and bias.
To be clear I like and use Maven scopes and can smile at how Formy had to quit lying on Rokslide about how the Maven scopes performed.
I asked him about how he came to have that many rifles (and he had some HIGH class stuff). He'd said before in passing, that he'd killed enough deer, he didn't need to kill one, just to kill one.
Just as we were about to find out how and why he owned so many rifles….deer hunting. Zing, right turn
I asked him about how he came to have that many rifles (and he had some HIGH class stuff). He'd said before in passing, that he'd killed enough deer, he didn't need to kill one, just to kill one.
Just as we were about to find out how and why he owned so many rifles….deer hunting. Zing, right turn
I said this at the time. Guess what the mob here made fun of me and attacked me personally instead of addressing exactly what they felt I said was incorrect. Form talked about shooting 100k rounds through rifles with a specific scope. Then all he ever showed was pics of tikkas with factory barrels still on them.
A lot of people swallowed everything he said with baited breath.
One of the most surprising revelations in all of these “tests” is that so many can’t smell the BS. On his Tract test, the testing was so bad the only thing “learned” was that the Tract’s reps couldn’t look at his process and see how bad it was.
When somebody uses the POI in unknown conditions as if it’s irrefutable proof of the scopes POA, it’s BS. Example; Al’s pictures of when his scope failed was shot in measured/flagged conditions by a skilled guy who’s shot thousands of rounds in measured conditions. If a bullet falls out, or completely scatters he’s pretty sure it wasn’t him.
When someone else just shoots in “seemed calm” conditions or “consistently shoots in the twos”, they’re full of schidt. Guns that shoot in the twos only do that when you monitor the conditions or steer them. Tests without flags or someone who knows how to shoot with flags——you don’t know if you’re seeing a shifting POA, or a weather report. When they cite their credentials to fill in the gaps, it doesn’t say much for the test, or the credentials.
I asked him about how he came to have that many rifles (and he had some HIGH class stuff). He'd said before in passing, that he'd killed enough deer, he didn't need to kill one, just to kill one.
Just as we were about to find out how and why he owned so many rifles….deer hunting. Zing, right turn
Thought I’d put that in there. Sorry. He was shooting deer for the meat market. Paid by the pound.
Interestingly enough, I just listened to a podcast that Form was on with the Shoot to Hunt guys (Avery owns Rokslide) from a year ago or so, where he emphatically stated that he has never received a single dollar from any firearm industry forum, and was clear that he isn't paid by Rokslide.
Did talk about a bunch of industry guys being butthurt about their scopes being evaluated though. And people being butthurt when their favorite brand doesn't do well. Which, that sounds pretty legit give how the optics forum goes around here.
I own SWFA scopes and Tikka rifles. Plenty of what Form says makes sense. I'd be shocked if he didn't have a financial arrangement with Rokslide, whatever he says. Probably a few other financial arrangements as well. I don't hold it against him.
Interestingly enough, I just listened to a podcast that Form was on with the Shoot to Hunt guys (Avery owns Rokslide) from a year ago or so, where he emphatically stated that he has never received a single dollar from any firearm industry forum, and was clear that he isn't paid by Rokslide.
Did talk about a bunch of industry guys being butthurt about their scopes being evaluated though. And people being butthurt when their favorite brand doesn't do well. Which, that sounds pretty legit give how the optics forum goes around here.
Formy (Chuck) lies about his testing and everything else.
Everyone who knows understands he just a liar about everything from scope testing to hunting experience.
It's easy to see for the Players but some of the Fans get sucked in.
The Maven tests are clear examples of his fake testing and bias.
To be clear I like and use Maven scopes and can smile at how Formy had to quit lying on Rokslide about how the Maven scopes performed.
You left out that you have a business relationship/financial interest in Maven.
I said this at the time. Guess what the mob here made fun of me and attacked me personally instead of addressing exactly what they felt I said was incorrect. Form talked about shooting 100k rounds through rifles with a specific scope. Then all he ever showed was pics of tikkas with factory barrels still on them.
A lot of people swallowed everything he said with baited breath.
He got plenty of members here to start throwing their rifles on the ground to test their scopes.
Interestingly enough, I just listened to a podcast that Form was on with the Shoot to Hunt guys (Avery owns Rokslide) from a year ago or so, where he emphatically stated that he has never received a single dollar from any firearm industry forum, and was clear that he isn't paid by Rokslide.
Did talk about a bunch of industry guys being butthurt about their scopes being evaluated though. And people being butthurt when their favorite brand doesn't do well. Which, that sounds pretty legit give how the optics forum goes around here.
Formy (Chuck) lies about his testing and everything else.
Everyone who knows understands he just a liar about everything from scope testing to hunting experience.
It's easy to see for the Players but some of the Fans get sucked in.
The Maven tests are clear examples of his fake testing and bias.
To be clear I like and use Maven scopes and can smile at how Formy had to quit lying on Rokslide about how the Maven scopes performed.
You left out that you have a business relationship/financial interest in Maven.
Blindly trusting any anonymous online user doesn’t seem like a good practice.
With this, I agree.
I'm no guru of optics or firearms expert, I have no bias from any company/sponsor/etc. I play with a lot of scopes and a lot of rifles, it's what I enjoy. Looking at my first hand use and experience with an unbiased approach, it lines up with results Formidilosus reports. I haven't played with all that he has and I don't shoot as much as he does...my sample is limited. I haven't had issues with one brand he had fail...but I've also not used it hard. I've had one model, of one brand he favors, fail miserably that he didn't in his test. In many cases, it doesn't require a drop test to see it. It simply shows up when sighting in and checking zero.
I shouldn't say I'm unbiased. There are certain scopes I want to work, I'm pulling for them, but if they don't adjust correctly or have a wondering zero, I just have to go by what I see. Overall, what I see in my use lines up with what he reports.
Why not just trust yourself and your experience? Works for me..
Works for me, too.
Trust but verify is how I regard most information. Too many people, especially on the internet, have a financial or other interest in what others use.
And some don't know enough to be giving advice - there's a minimally known gun writer who frequently uses a gun range where I meet up with a couple of buddies a few times a year. Have ran into this dude on several occasions, and the majority of what he passes off as expertise to anyone within earshot is minimally correct or outright BS. We just shake our heads and feel bad for the guys who get sucked in and follow his advice.
Blindly trusting any anonymous online user doesn’t seem like a good practice.
With this, I agree.
I'm no guru of optics or firearms expert, I have no bias from any company/sponsor/etc. I play with a lot of scopes and a lot of rifles, it's what I enjoy. Looking at my first hand use and experience with an unbiased approach, it lines up with results Formidilosus reports. I haven't played with all that he has and I don't shoot as much as he does...my sample is limited. I haven't had issues with one brand he had fail...but I've also not used it hard. I've had one model, of one brand he favors, fail miserably that he didn't in his test. In many cases, it doesn't require a drop test to see it. It simply shows up when sighting in and checking zero.
I shouldn't say I'm unbiased. There are certain scopes I want to work, I'm pulling for them, but if they don't adjust correctly or have a wondering zero, I just have to go by what I see. Overall, what I see in my use lines up with what he reports.
Why not just trust yourself and your experience? Works for me..
Originally Posted by Starbuck
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Why not just trust yourself and your experience? Works for me..
Works for me, too.
Trust but verify is how I regard most information. Too many people, especially on the internet, have a financial or other interest in what others use.
And some don't know enough to be giving advice - there's a minimally known gun writer who frequently uses a gun range where I meet up with a couple of buddies a few times a year. Have ran into this dude on several occasions, and the majority of what he passes off as expertise to anyone within earshot is minimally correct or outright BS. We just shake our heads and feel bad for the guys who get sucked in and follow his advice.
Originally Posted by JGRaider
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Why not just trust yourself and your experience? Works for me..
The only way to fly IMO.
This thread is quite the witch hunt.
Most forum members wouldn’t be here if they weren’t interested in perspectives beyond their own limited experience set. That’s really the value that forums like this one provide. Most all of us are interested in data/info from other users, and Form’s stories and results are simply another data point. Some data are more useful than others, and some data sources are more credible and authoritative than others. IMO, it makes sense to take the data on the internet for what it is worth, consider the source, and weight the data accordingly.
Blindly trusting any anonymous online user doesn’t seem like a good practice.
This really sums it up. I wouldn’t buy or use anything I have read about on the campfire for the endorsement it gets here. It doesn’t take more than 4 posts on any subject before it is bashed and destroyed by someone that knows more or less…
Why not just trust yourself and your experience? Works for me..
Originally Posted by Starbuck
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Why not just trust yourself and your experience? Works for me..
Works for me, too.
Trust but verify is how I regard most information. Too many people, especially on the internet, have a financial or other interest in what others use.
And some don't know enough to be giving advice - there's a minimally known gun writer who frequently uses a gun range where I meet up with a couple of buddies a few times a year. Have ran into this dude on several occasions, and the majority of what he passes off as expertise to anyone within earshot is minimally correct or outright BS. We just shake our heads and feel bad for the guys who get sucked in and follow his advice.
Originally Posted by JGRaider
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Why not just trust yourself and your experience? Works for me..
The only way to fly IMO.
This thread is quite the witch hunt.
Most forum members wouldn’t be here if they weren’t interested in perspectives beyond their own limited experience set. That’s really the value that forums like this one provide. Most all of us are interested in data/info from other users, and Form’s stories and results are simply another data point. Some data are more useful than others, and some data sources are more credible and authoritative than others. IMO, it makes sense to take the data on the internet for what it is worth, consider the source, and weight the data accordingly.
Jordan:
So, basically, trust but verify?
I'd call it more of a which hunt, as in which information do you take into consideration and which information do you disregard.
Why not just trust yourself and your experience? Works for me..
Originally Posted by Starbuck
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Why not just trust yourself and your experience? Works for me..
Works for me, too.
Trust but verify is how I regard most information. Too many people, especially on the internet, have a financial or other interest in what others use.
And some don't know enough to be giving advice - there's a minimally known gun writer who frequently uses a gun range where I meet up with a couple of buddies a few times a year. Have ran into this dude on several occasions, and the majority of what he passes off as expertise to anyone within earshot is minimally correct or outright BS. We just shake our heads and feel bad for the guys who get sucked in and follow his advice.
Originally Posted by JGRaider
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Why not just trust yourself and your experience? Works for me..
The only way to fly IMO.
This thread is quite the witch hunt.
Most forum members wouldn’t be here if they weren’t interested in perspectives beyond their own limited experience set. That’s really the value that forums like this one provide. Most all of us are interested in data/info from other users, and Form’s stories and results are simply another data point. Some data are more useful than others, and some data sources are more credible and authoritative than others. IMO, it makes sense to take the data on the internet for what it is worth, consider the source, and weight the data accordingly.
It entirely depends on who the source is. You're obviously good to go, but many loudmouths here are not. That's why I find a source I trust, buy it myself, try it myself, use it myself, and form my own opinion. I've done it with the Tract Toric when they first came out, currently the arken EP4's, VX6, Athlon Ares BTR, Meopta scopes and binos when they first started marketing them under their own name, etc.
This really sums it up. I wouldn’t buy or use anything I have read about on the campfire for the endorsement it gets here. It doesn’t take more than 4 posts on any subject before it is bashed and destroyed by someone that knows more or less…
Yup. I've moved on to other sources, as here it seems to be "all" fail or "all" are always perfect, which is the sure sign of a shill.
I've done it with the Tract Toric when they first came out, currently the arken EP4's, VX6, Athlon Ares BTR, Meopta scopes and binos when they first started marketing them under their own name, etc.
Check out the Ares ETR UHD line if you like the BTR. I'm impressed with the one we put on my son's .22. WAAAAAAY better glass than the Helos line.
Why not just trust yourself and your experience? Works for me..
Originally Posted by Starbuck
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Why not just trust yourself and your experience? Works for me..
Works for me, too.
Trust but verify is how I regard most information. Too many people, especially on the internet, have a financial or other interest in what others use.
And some don't know enough to be giving advice - there's a minimally known gun writer who frequently uses a gun range where I meet up with a couple of buddies a few times a year. Have ran into this dude on several occasions, and the majority of what he passes off as expertise to anyone within earshot is minimally correct or outright BS. We just shake our heads and feel bad for the guys who get sucked in and follow his advice.
Originally Posted by JGRaider
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Why not just trust yourself and your experience? Works for me..
The only way to fly IMO.
This thread is quite the witch hunt.
Most forum members wouldn’t be here if they weren’t interested in perspectives beyond their own limited experience set. That’s really the value that forums like this one provide. Most all of us are interested in data/info from other users, and Form’s stories and results are simply another data point. Some data are more useful than others, and some data sources are more credible and authoritative than others. IMO, it makes sense to take the data on the internet for what it is worth, consider the source, and weight the data accordingly.
Jordan:
So, basically, trust but verify?
I'd call it more of a which hunt, as in which information do you take into consideration and which information do you disregard.
Pretty much, though as I mentioned, the amount of trust should be weighted according to the credibility/authority of the source. Which is another way of describing your “which hunt.”
Why not just trust yourself and your experience? Works for me..
Originally Posted by Starbuck
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Why not just trust yourself and your experience? Works for me..
Works for me, too.
Trust but verify is how I regard most information. Too many people, especially on the internet, have a financial or other interest in what others use.
And some don't know enough to be giving advice - there's a minimally known gun writer who frequently uses a gun range where I meet up with a couple of buddies a few times a year. Have ran into this dude on several occasions, and the majority of what he passes off as expertise to anyone within earshot is minimally correct or outright BS. We just shake our heads and feel bad for the guys who get sucked in and follow his advice.
Originally Posted by JGRaider
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Why not just trust yourself and your experience? Works for me..
The only way to fly IMO.
This thread is quite the witch hunt.
Most forum members wouldn’t be here if they weren’t interested in perspectives beyond their own limited experience set. That’s really the value that forums like this one provide. Most all of us are interested in data/info from other users, and Form’s stories and results are simply another data point. Some data are more useful than others, and some data sources are more credible and authoritative than others. IMO, it makes sense to take the data on the internet for what it is worth, consider the source, and weight the data accordingly.
It entirely depends on who the source is. You're obviously good to go, but many loudmouths here are not. That's why I find a source I trust, buy it myself, try it myself, use it myself, and form my own opinion. I've done it with the Tract Toric when they first came out, currently the arken EP4's, VX6, Athlon Ares BTR, Meopta scopes and binos when they first started marketing them under their own name, etc.
Right on, JG. My last sentence and your first one are essentially saying the same thing.
And I'd like to think I give credit where credit is due when something works as advertised. You and GregW rec'd the LRHS's to me a few years ago and you were 100% correct about it's reliability and usefuleness and still are for that matter.
I said this at the time. Guess what the mob here made fun of me and attacked me personally instead of addressing exactly what they felt I said was incorrect. Form talked about shooting 100k rounds through rifles with a specific scope. Then all he ever showed was pics of tikkas with factory barrels still on them.
A lot of people swallowed everything he said with baited breath.
It's been some time, but wasn't your longstanding beef with him derived from an argument over how many shots he got out of a barrel, wherein he was referring to total shots through an action and you misread it as shots through one barrel? Seems I read several posts from you in various threads that referenced Form's infamous barrel.
I said this at the time. Guess what the mob here made fun of me and attacked me personally instead of addressing exactly what they felt I said was incorrect. Form talked about shooting 100k rounds through rifles with a specific scope. Then all he ever showed was pics of tikkas with factory barrels still on them.
A lot of people swallowed everything he said with baited breath.
It's been some time, but wasn't your longstanding beef with him derived from an argument over how many shots he got out of a barrel, wherein he was referring to total shots through an action and you misread it as shots through one barrel? Seems I read several posts from you in various threads that referenced Form's infamous barrel.
It was more a lack of reading comprehension. The claim advanced (bullshít or not) was that a scope had seen 6 figures shot under it. Never was it claimed to be from the same rifle; but this bit was elusive for some.
Engineering is the study of other people's failures, and creating policies, processes and procedures to avoid repeating mistakes.
Half of the fun of this site is seeing what didn't work for whom and for why, and avoiding those failures.
The thing is, there are so many out there who can't separate belief from knowledge and are all too willing to reach a conclusion when they shouldn't conclude anything at all.
"I've used [insert brand name here] and owned dozens of them and never had that happen to me." (therefore, it did not happen to you)
"I bought a [insert brand name here] and it failed within a week" (therefore, they ALL fail within a week)
"I missed a good buck when I used a [insert brand name here]." (I take no responsibility fir the miss)
"My 1-in-12 twist .22-250 won't shoot 50-grain Ballistic Tips but my 1-in-9 twist .22-250 will, so obviously you need a 1-in-9 twist for that bullet."
_________________________
It's the freekin internet. Everybody is now a gunwriter, no qualifications needed.
About 10-15 yards above the sheer drop off, the rocks gave way and I flipped on my back tossing the rifle, knowing that I was about to go off and hoping that if I went feet first I would just break my legs... It was around a 60 foot drop and I watched rifle flip end over end until it dropped over the ledge. I was on my back sliding fast trying to grab anything to stop. The first two bushes just tore away doing nothing to slow me down. I was able to snatch the last small tree right above the drop off and it held. When it stopped me my right foot was dangling over the edge. I was still only holding on by my left hand and used my right to hit the quick releases on the pack. It broke away and shot off the cliff, taking what seemed like forever to hit.
I'm a Form skeptic but I trust his opinion more than that of many of his haters.
Yep, same here. All I know is if a guy has Burns, JGRaider, and cumminscowboy saying he’s doing something wrong, he should continue as he’s doing as that bunch is the antithesis of right.
About 10-15 yards above the sheer drop off, the rocks gave way and I flipped on my back tossing the rifle, knowing that I was about to go off and hoping that if I went feet first I would just break my legs... It was around a 60 foot drop and I watched rifle flip end over end until it dropped over the ledge. I was on my back sliding fast trying to grab anything to stop. The first two bushes just tore away doing nothing to slow me down. I was able to snatch the last small tree right above the drop off and it held. When it stopped me my right foot was dangling over the edge. I was still only holding on by my left hand and used my right to hit the quick releases on the pack. It broke away and shot off the cliff, taking what seemed like forever to hit.
About 10-15 yards above the sheer drop off, the rocks gave way and I flipped on my back tossing the rifle, knowing that I was about to go off and hoping that if I went feet first I would just break my legs... It was around a 60 foot drop and I watched rifle flip end over end until it dropped over the ledge. I was on my back sliding fast trying to grab anything to stop. The first two bushes just tore away doing nothing to slow me down. I was able to snatch the last small tree right above the drop off and it held. When it stopped me my right foot was dangling over the edge. I was still only holding on by my left hand and used my right to hit the quick releases on the pack. It broke away and shot off the cliff, taking what seemed like forever to hit.
Sounds like a scene out of Mission Impossible with Tom Cruise
It's never been difficult to discern who shoots and who don't. Hint.
It's funnier than fhuqk,just how many of the Dont's are Professional Victims,steeped in Hurt Feeler Reports. Hint.................
It's also not difficult to know who won't post any pics of his "always shoots in the 0.2's" testing setup.
It's funnier than fhuqk,that a Brokedick Whining CLUELESS Kchunt Professional Victim,is always in a constant state of AMAZEMENT,due her "means","abilities" and "comprehension". That which is IMPOSSIBLE for you and INCREDIBLE,is simply called "Friday" here and rather blasse'. Hint.
Keep The Hurt Feeler Reports coming and pardon wares that exist. Hint.
I'm a Form skeptic but I trust his opinion more than that of many of his haters.
Yep, same here. All I know is if a guy has Burns, JGRaider, and cumminscowboy saying he’s doing something wrong, he should continue as he’s doing as that bunch is the antithesis of right.
Bingo. Those clowns are contra indicators.
Illya is a paid vortex pimp. Says so himself. Not gonna shyt where he eats.
Form called out the hater bytches with a $$$ offer. No takers.
It’s easy to see who is full of shyt, when $$$ comes up.
I'm a Form skeptic but I trust his opinion more than that of many of his haters.
Yep, same here. All I know is if a guy has Burns, JGRaider, and cumminscowboy saying he’s doing something wrong, he should continue as he’s doing as that bunch is the antithesis of right.
Guess again hoss. I never said he was doing something wrong anyway. I said half the time I think he's FOS. BTW, seeing this qwk loser is on your team it has much to say about you.
Formidilosus once sent me a Nightforce scope just to play with for a couple weeks. He paid the postage to me and I paid postage back. Nice guy as far as I am concerned. BTW I didn't ask for the scope loan he offered when I was asking about that model on a thread.
been on quite a few forums and rokslide is #1 for product bashing to promote another, it was obvious from many years ago, kifaru was the only way to fly, bought one of those pos's and it dang near killed me on my first pack out, they've come a long ways since kifaru or bust days lol, I do see some posters here that do the same dang thing but overall this forum keeps things in check as too many ask questions and it's not as reigned in...a little more 1st amendment here so to speak, which always allows the truth to get to the top eventually
I've caught Form a couple times making rational sense but it did contradict his most repeated words. 1. Was around target shooting disciplines, how to come up with better for 'hunting' than say prs, he actually confirmed the prs and the rigs don't cross over to hunting and could be set up better, but most of the time he recommends getting into it to become a better shooter. When he did call out all he saw wrong with it from the targets themselves etc. he was thorough and detailed as usual and made perfect sense...just a rarity to catch him contradicting himself like that, usually he bangs on about prs ffp/mil as much as you possibly can lol.
and 2. I saw him admit despite all the gear and training available and that by his witness of countless top dog killers etc. that only a moderate amount of people will be consistent killers to 450 yards and very few to 600. Which mirrored my own journey and application afield, it also mirrors a great many and when polled (rokslide prs guys included) it seems to mirror the majority halve the distances they compete at when hunting (most saying 500-600 tops for hunting). Which then confirms what zee fack is all this banging on about prs ffp/mil about then? A brief instance of clarity and honesty came out from time to time...must have got in the way of the business plan, tough to always stay on agenda.
connecting all the dots from this thread and the linked it seems I was right in my assumption, that this is more about having a latest trend/fad to sell gear, it boils down to dollars, the American way...the entire prs ffp/mil thing is as I've said...just warming up after where hunting including long range hunting ends...so for the hunters why waste your time with the target disciplines that are unnatural and not fine tuned for 0-600 yard work on animals?
anyway, that's gonna generate plenty of hurt feelers
in the end I don't mind him, very detailed student imo, seems to be a sponge, had interesting chats re; terminal ballistics with him but I had theories people hadn't been talking about yet and he seemed stuck on only what you could already pre-learn from others work, he didn't seem very open to anything new presented by a forum member, struck me as a bit of ego
Guess again hoss. I never said he was doing something wrong anyway. I said half the time I think he's FOS. BTW, seeing this qwk loser is on your team it has much to say about you.
Time to put up or stfu. The shyt you tout doesn’t work for continued use. You won’t cause you’re a lyin bytch.
Interesting post from Ilya Koshkin about Formidilosus over on snipershide from 2022... might be old news to you guys but I thought it was interesting.
Quote
I talked to the gentleman in question a couple of years ago. He seemed like a perfectly personable guy, but his results do not jive with mine. I also have the advantage of knowing the return statistics of several manufacturers. What he says about scopes sounds plausible, but does not jive with with what I have seen and what I know about the statistics of this. It also does not jive with the experience of a couple of fairly large armories I interact with for my dayjob.
I have not read everything he wrote over the years, but enough to think a lot of it is at least embellished (hunting stories) or out right silly nonsense (some of the scope tests). He does a good job of making them sound scientific, but it is really too uncontrolled of an experiment to make conclusions out of. I've been involved in designing equipment for durability testing of this stuff and I can tell you right off hand that the way he does it I can make any scope fail or any scope pass. It is as simple as that.
Beyond that, he clearly has a beef with Vortex. I do not know the origin of it, but he has never managed to find a Vortex scope that works. Not once. That's one hell of a lucky streak. He also has never managed to find a Nightforce scope that wasn't flawless, indestructible, etc. Is he a Nightforce shill? Perhaps, but he also likes older LOW designs like the SWFA SS HD and Bushnell LRHS/LRTS. I know with good amount of certainty that he does not have any personal relationship with the folks at SWFA. In other words, I have no idea where his bias comes from, but I know he hates Vortex with a passion.
He either does or did work for the military. Sometimes, he talks about it all the time and other times he goes all secret squirrel about it. I did not bother to check whether that is true or not, but he does like to sound mysterious.
He goes from forum to forum and bashes companies he does not like in more or less the same way. I know that on at least a couple of forums he got paid to stick around, presumably because he spins a nice sounding story and attracts an audience. Since it is always some form of the same nonsense, I sorta stopped paying attention to him a couple of years ago.
In case you were wondering why Form doesn't post here anymore, it looks like Rokslide is probably paying him to post over there.
It's easy to see for the Players but some of the Fans get sucked in.
You might honestly be the biggest douche bag on earth.
Congratulations?
The earth is pretty big. There’s at least a 50/50 chance that somewhere there’s a bigger douchebag than Burns.
Yeah, but someone IS the biggest. And I haven’t run into anyone who comes close to Burns so far.
Until I meet him, Burns has the title.
I have a lot of respect for Burns’ and Rick’s experience. I’m not a fan of all the sh*t talking and name calling. I tune most of that out. At the end of the day I look for information that I feel has value.
It's easy to see for the Players but some of the Fans get sucked in.
You might honestly be the biggest douche bag on earth.
Congratulations?
The earth is pretty big. There’s at least a 50/50 chance that somewhere there’s a bigger douchebag than Burns.
Yeah, but someone IS the biggest. And I haven’t run into anyone who comes close to Burns so far.
Until I meet him, Burns has the title.
I have a lot of respect for Burns’ and Rick’s experience. I’m not a fan of all the sh*t talking and name calling. I tune most of that out. At the end of the day I look for information that I feel has value.
I have a lot of respect for burns' stock. Hauling that fat dumb f uck around would be no easy task. Also his shirt buttons. Those thing must be sewn on with piano wire. If they ever fail, someone's going to lose an eye....
been on quite a few forums and rokslide is #1 for product bashing to promote another
What was your previous name here?
this is my only handle here or there, why...what is your assumption?
Oh, just that nobody believes you've been all over the internet on other gun forums for years and just joined here for the first time recently.
Alberta Outdoorsman, look up my handle, I'm banned, explained that was trying to save everyone from covid shots etc., a lot of us were banned. Anyhow, registered since 2007 there.
Rokslide, haven't been there in awhile but same thing, you'll see I've been there since 2013.
I was on predator masters ages ago, mid to late 2000's but can't remember my handle there.
On Canadian Gunnutz since 2005 as blakeyboy, any of my old handles from that era may have been like that blakeinator etc. at some point after killing and skinning a bunch of coyotes my handle theme morphed to the oxymoron it is now.
There are plenty of members here who've seen me in those other places.
oh yeah, same handle on 6.5 Grendel forums, been there since 2017 when I got first grendel and started killing exclusively with it for 6 seasons with my kids as they came of age...
love this '24hr Campfire' is the center of the universe type questioning though...good luck with that, I might be new to you....lucky you
smokepole came at me like this already, you didn't see that thread? I'm old hat lol
oh crap I bet I spent time on rimfirecentral also, are these not thee forums? it'll be 3 emails ago I was on a few of them back then and couldn't remember handles, but the last part of this century I tried to keep it consistent across the board with the stinkycoyote
come to think of it, I bet I signed up here way back when also, maybe a mod could look it up somehow, would guess a blakeinator related type handle...but it was so long I didn't come here, and a couple email addresses later, when I came back I just came as stinkycoyote, and I don't do the consistency for you...I do it for me so I remember sign in and log ins easier lol, probably had the same passwords for all of them too haha
now that we've covered that...who the fack are you to question me?
It's easy to see for the Players but some of the Fans get sucked in.
You might honestly be the biggest douche bag on earth.
Congratulations?
The earth is pretty big. There’s at least a 50/50 chance that somewhere there’s a bigger douchebag than Burns.
Yeah, but someone IS the biggest. And I haven’t run into anyone who comes close to Burns so far.
Until I meet him, Burns has the title.
I have a lot of respect for Burns’ and Rick’s experience. I’m not a fan of all the sh*t talking and name calling. I tune most of that out. At the end of the day I look for information that I feel has value.
In case you haven’t noticed, Burns and Rick are two of the biggest sht talkers around.
And, you can be knowledgeable and still be a giant douche. They are not mutually exclusive. But don’t let that stop you. It’s a free country.
It's easy to see for the Players but some of the Fans get sucked in.
You might honestly be the biggest douche bag on earth.
Congratulations?
The earth is pretty big. There’s at least a 50/50 chance that somewhere there’s a bigger douchebag than Burns.
Yeah, but someone IS the biggest. And I haven’t run into anyone who comes close to Burns so far.
Until I meet him, Burns has the title.
I have a lot of respect for Burns’ and Rick’s experience. I’m not a fan of all the sh*t talking and name calling. I tune most of that out. At the end of the day I look for information that I feel has value.
I have a lot of respect for burns' stock. Hauling that fat dumb f uck around would be no easy task. Also his shirt buttons. Those thing must be sewn on with piano wire. If they ever fail, someone's going to lose an eye....
I have a lot of respect for the sheep Burns keeps around. They put in a lot of time between visits from Rcamuglia
About 10-15 yards above the sheer drop off, the rocks gave way and I flipped on my back tossing the rifle, knowing that I was about to go off and hoping that if I went feet first I would just break my legs... It was around a 60 foot drop and I watched rifle flip end over end until it dropped over the ledge. I was on my back sliding fast trying to grab anything to stop. The first two bushes just tore away doing nothing to slow me down. I was able to snatch the last small tree right above the drop off and it held. When it stopped me my right foot was dangling over the edge. I was still only holding on by my left hand and used my right to hit the quick releases on the pack. It broke away and shot off the cliff, taking what seemed like forever to hit.
God damn, the suckassery by grown ladies in that thread are gross. Only thing I remember about formidphonyfuck, was when I called his bullshiit, beavercunt called me chickenshit, and I got texts from a couple wannabes stating “oh he’s legit jud” , “he’s the real deal”. Funny stuff
That elk hunt to me revealed who form really was and wasn’t to me. I did admire that he just sent it and went for it with little to no experience with that particular hunt. But the details gave him away.
Ok I gotta say it 2 guys here who were the most taken by forms “wisdom” here. Jordan smith. And god I gotta say it and I like you! jG raider. 😂😂
I still remember pointing out the 100k rounds and tikka factory barrels still on the guns. People flamed the living crap outta me and swore I was wrong.
Another guy I think that’s over rated. Koskin Let the flame show start on that. But I was the only one that went toe to toe with form and suggested otherwise despite the withering assault on my character
About 10-15 yards above the sheer drop off, the rocks gave way and I flipped on my back tossing the rifle, knowing that I was about to go off and hoping that if I went feet first I would just break my legs... It was around a 60 foot drop and I watched rifle flip end over end until it dropped over the ledge. I was on my back sliding fast trying to grab anything to stop. The first two bushes just tore away doing nothing to slow me down. I was able to snatch the last small tree right above the drop off and it held. When it stopped me my right foot was dangling over the edge. I was still only holding on by my left hand and used my right to hit the quick releases on the pack. It broke away and shot off the cliff, taking what seemed like forever to hit.
God damn, the suckassery by grown ladies in that thread are gross. Only thing I remember about formidphonyfuck, was when I called his bullshiit, beavercunt called me chickenshit, and I got texts from a couple wannabes stating “oh he’s legit jud” , “he’s the real deal”. Funny stuff
Ok I gotta say it 2 guys here who were the most taken by forms “wisdom” here. Jordan smith. And god I gotta say it and I like you! jG raider. 😂😂
I still remember pointing out the 100k rounds and tikka factory barrels still on the guns. People flamed the living crap outta me and swore I was wrong.
The fact is, the majority of Form's opinions, statements, and results aligned with my own experience.
And you're still not getting that you were jumping the gun in crying foul over the 100k-round scope. Factory barrels make no difference if the scope has ridden on 20-50 different rifles. I'm not saying it did, just that it's entirely possible for a scope to ride on rifles for 100k rounds, and for some of the rifles it rode on to have factory barrels.
Ok I gotta say it 2 guys here who were the most taken by forms “wisdom” here. Jordan smith. And god I gotta say it and I like you! jG raider. 😂😂
I still remember pointing out the 100k rounds and tikka factory barrels still on the guns. People flamed the living crap outta me and swore I was wrong.
The fact is, the majority of Form's opinions, statements, and results aligned with my own experience.
And you're still not getting that you were jumping the gun in crying foul over the 100k-round scope. Factory barrels make no difference if the scope has ridden on 20-50 different rifles. I'm not saying it did, just that it's entirely possible for a scope to ride on rifles for 100k rounds, and for some of the rifles it rode on to have factory barrels.
About 10-15 yards above the sheer drop off, the rocks gave way and I flipped on my back tossing the rifle, knowing that I was about to go off and hoping that if I went feet first I would just break my legs... It was around a 60 foot drop and I watched rifle flip end over end until it dropped over the ledge. I was on my back sliding fast trying to grab anything to stop. The first two bushes just tore away doing nothing to slow me down. I was able to snatch the last small tree right above the drop off and it held. When it stopped me my right foot was dangling over the edge. I was still only holding on by my left hand and used my right to hit the quick releases on the pack. It broke away and shot off the cliff, taking what seemed like forever to hit.
God damn, the suckassery by grown ladies in that thread are gross. Only thing I remember about formidphonyfuck, was when I called his bullshiit, beavercunt called me chickenshit, and I got texts from a couple wannabes stating “oh he’s legit jud” , “he’s the real deal”. Funny stuff
I find this conversation interesting. I recall Forms elk hunt. If you look at that thread you'll see I called him out. That post was a bit hard to beleive. I've elk hunted a time or 6.........
As to his posts over on Rokslide on scopes - it's a data point folks - that's it. I use it just like Sticks posts, and a number of others. I've also PM'd with folks I view as knowledgeable and w/o a biased viewpoint. A number of folks on this thread provide very solid, unbiased data points. And I trust them.
I am, however, very suspect when posters go completely black and white on gear/equipment/opinions. I've been here since 2003 - 21 years. I've morphed my views over the years on many things hunting related. I've made some mistakes, made some good calls, and experimented alot with gear/techniques/tactics. It is those posters that have arrived at Nirvana that are most fooled - by themselves. Technology changes folks, and in the shooting and hunting world were better for it mostly - still not a fan of guys running 10000 game cameras but if it's legal and they want to, fine. I could go on a 4wheeler rant as well.
At the end of the day, the drama displayed here is part of the entertainment for some. I tend to wade through the dick measuring contests, personal threats, and other similar BS and find solid nuggets of information. To those that provide solid info without wallowing in the BS - thank you! And please continue to post.
Holy sh_t! I haven’t heard this much gossip since I gathered eggs in my hen house yesterday evening. Amazing how we bash folks we’ve never even talked to on the phone, let alone met. Wow. No wonder great folks like Pat Sinclair are no longer on this forum.
I find this conversation interesting. I recall Forms elk hunt. If you look at that thread you'll see I called him out. That post was a bit hard to beleive. I've elk hunted a time or 6.........
As to his posts over on Rokslide on scopes - it's a data point folks - that's it. I use it just like Sticks posts, and a number of others. I've also PM'd with folks I view as knowledgeable and w/o a biased viewpoint. A number of folks on this thread provide very solid, unbiased data points. And I trust them.
I am, however, very suspect when posters go completely black and white on gear/equipment/opinions. I've been here since 2003 - 21 years. I've morphed my views over the years on many things hunting related. I've made some mistakes, made some good calls, and experimented alot with gear/techniques/tactics. It is those posters that have arrived at Nirvana that are most fooled - by themselves. Technology changes folks, and in the shooting and hunting world were better for it mostly - still not a fan of guys running 10000 game cameras but if it's legal and they want to, fine. I could go on a 4wheeler rant as well.
At the end of the day, the drama displayed here is part of the entertainment for some. I tend to wade through the dick measuring contests, personal threats, and other similar BS and find solid nuggets of information. To those that provide solid info without wallowing in the BS - thank you! And please continue to post.
Well said. A lot of good info here if you’re looking and can listen to what others are saying.
People don't like Form because he is objective and he doesn't care about yer feelers, just the facts.
The Illya guy is just projecting.
Hate to break it too you, but an agenda is an agenda, and both have one.
If Vortex scope sucked half as bad and were half as fragile as he says, they wouldn't be on the rifles of top shooters in high numbers.
It is what it is, but anyone saying 100% of X scopes are good or 100% are bad is full of it and has an agenda. Whether said agenda is based on money or feelings doesn't really matter
People don't like Form because he is objective and he doesn't care about yer feelers, just the facts.
The Illya guy is just projecting.
Hate to break it too you, but an agenda is an agenda, and both have one.
If Vortex scope sucked half as bad and were half as fragile as he says, they wouldn't be on the rifles of top shooters in high numbers.
It is what it is, but anyone saying 100% of X scopes are good or 100% are bad is full of it and has an agenda. Whether said agenda is based on money or feelings doesn't really matter
Sure they would. Money talks.
Facts are facts. Vortex is garbage. Just because you're emotionally invested in Vortex does not change facts.
So because you love vortex, you hate Form. Pretty funny.
I like Vortex and I especially love that they are the only scopes I've ever had that I've never had to clean the lens. They go back for warranty before that.
People don't like Form because he is objective and he doesn't care about yer feelers, just the facts.
The Illya guy is just projecting.
Hate to break it too you, but an agenda is an agenda, and both have one.
If Vortex scope sucked half as bad and were half as fragile as he says, they wouldn't be on the rifles of top shooters in high numbers.
It is what it is, but anyone saying 100% of X scopes are good or 100% are bad is full of it and has an agenda. Whether said agenda is based on money or feelings doesn't really matter
If the “top shooters” are getting sponsored….
The same criticism of Form (paid shill?) applies to any of the Vortex freaks.
As Jordan said, Form’s scope testing aligns with my personal experiences, so I’m inclined to believe his advice.
I think it is certainly possible to thoroughly and accurately assess a scope and then drive across the country and hunt elk like a total goober. YMMV.
"The Illya guy" has been in the optics business for decades, both as an engineer and an executive in charge of various aspects from engineering to manufacturing, working for various companies. He's also a very avid shooter, who knows scopes both inside and outside, in the field.
"The Illya guy" has been in the optics business for decades, both as an engineer and an executive in charge of various aspects from engineering to manufacturing. He's also a very avid shooter. He knows scopes both inside and outside, in the field.
I don't thing logic and reason are allowed in the optics forum.
And, sponsored athletes/shooters don't use gear that hinders their performance. Of course, Razor =/=Crossfire, but we should lump "Vortex" (or any other scope company's top line and bubble pack tier line) as one homogenous unit.........
"The Illya guy" has been in the optics business for decades, both as an engineer and an executive in charge of various aspects from engineering to manufacturing, working for various companies. He's also a very avid shooter, who knows scopes both inside and outside, in the field.
Definitely not being paid by anyone. Purely voluntary service, unlike evil form lol lol
Facts are facts. Vortex is garbage. Just because you're emotionally invested in Vortex does not change facts.
So because you love vortex, you hate Form. Pretty funny.
See, this right here is what I'm talking about. But, hey, feel free to guess what percentage of my optics are currently Vortex. 😉
Edit: since you edited, I take what both say with a grain of salt. One gets paid by the company the other has an obvious beef with the company.
Form's drop test says the Helos gen2 2-12 is hot garbage. Doesn't seem to stop people here from using them without a huge percentage of issues.
Funny how that works.....
I don't care if you give two s hits about what I post. You are a f ucking clown that is married to a company because you bought something from them.
Even with a 40% discount vortex is still over priced garbage.
BTW still waiting for anyone to provide any actual proof Form is being paid by an optic company for his evaluations.
Um, I don't have any Vortex scopes right now. I'm just not an intellectually sophomoric retard that thinks the logical fallacy of the false dichotomy is a great way to look at things. 😉
anyone saying 100% of X scopes are good or 100% are bad is full of it and has an agenda.
Where did Form or Ilya say that?
Form's never met a Vortex he likes. But I want only referring to them. 😉
That’s different from claiming that 100% of them are bad. One is a statement about a limited sample, and the other is a claim about the entire population of scopes.
People don't like Form because he is objective and he doesn't care about yer feelers, just the facts.
The Illya guy is just projecting.
Hate to break it too you, but an agenda is an agenda, and both have one.
If Vortex scope sucked half as bad and were half as fragile as he says, they wouldn't be on the rifles of top shooters in high numbers.
It is what it is, but anyone saying 100% of X scopes are good or 100% are bad is full of it and has an agenda. Whether said agenda is based on money or feelings doesn't really matter
If the “top shooters” are getting sponsored….
The same criticism of Form (paid shill?) applies to any of the Vortex freaks.
As Jordan said, Form’s scope testing aligns with my personal experiences, so I’m inclined to believe his advice.
I think it is certainly possible to thoroughly and accurately assess a scope and then drive across the country and hunt elk like a total goober. YMMV.
Do you believe a "top shooter" would take a sponsorship that made him lose over providing his own scope he can win with?
People don't like Form because he is objective and he doesn't care about yer feelers, just the facts.
The Illya guy is just projecting.
Hate to break it too you, but an agenda is an agenda, and both have one.
If Vortex scope sucked half as bad and were half as fragile as he says, they wouldn't be on the rifles of top shooters in high numbers.
It is what it is, but anyone saying 100% of X scopes are good or 100% are bad is full of it and has an agenda. Whether said agenda is based on money or feelings doesn't really matter
If the “top shooters” are getting sponsored….
The same criticism of Form (paid shill?) applies to any of the Vortex freaks.
As Jordan said, Form’s scope testing aligns with my personal experiences, so I’m inclined to believe his advice.
I think it is certainly possible to thoroughly and accurately assess a scope and then drive across the country and hunt elk like a total goober. YMMV.
Do you believe a "top shooter" would take a sponsorship that made him lose over providing his own scope he can win with?
Depends on how much the sponsorship is. As for competitions, surely they check and double check their zero prior to a course of fire? That could mitigate the vortex wandering zero.
The Real test would be zero the gun before the competition and leave it alone for the entire match. Wonder how many do that..
People don't like Form because he is objective and he doesn't care about yer feelers, just the facts.
The Illya guy is just projecting.
Hate to break it too you, but an agenda is an agenda, and both have one.
If Vortex scope sucked half as bad and were half as fragile as he says, they wouldn't be on the rifles of top shooters in high numbers.
It is what it is, but anyone saying 100% of X scopes are good or 100% are bad is full of it and has an agenda. Whether said agenda is based on money or feelings doesn't really matter
If the “top shooters” are getting sponsored….
The same criticism of Form (paid shill?) applies to any of the Vortex freaks.
As Jordan said, Form’s scope testing aligns with my personal experiences, so I’m inclined to believe his advice.
I think it is certainly possible to thoroughly and accurately assess a scope and then drive across the country and hunt elk like a total goober. YMMV.
Do you believe a "top shooter" would take a sponsorship that made him lose over providing his own scope he can win with?
Depends on how much the sponsorship is. As for competitions, surely they check and double check their zero prior to a course of fire? That could mitigate the vortex wandering zero.
So you haven't done much competition shooting.
Well, for starters, for PRS you may fire up to a couple hundred rounds over the course of two or three days. You will dial up and down dozens of times. There is sometimes a zero-range set-up the day before to confirm zero, but that's just about it. PRS rifles get knocked around more in one match than you do in ten years of hunting. They have to hold zero and track. No, they aren't making compromises on gear because of a "sponsorship" that really doesn't amount to much more than discounted or free optics.
People don't like Form because he is objective and he doesn't care about yer feelers, just the facts.
The Illya guy is just projecting.
Hate to break it too you, but an agenda is an agenda, and both have one.
If Vortex scope sucked half as bad and were half as fragile as he says, they wouldn't be on the rifles of top shooters in high numbers.
It is what it is, but anyone saying 100% of X scopes are good or 100% are bad is full of it and has an agenda. Whether said agenda is based on money or feelings doesn't really matter
If the “top shooters” are getting sponsored….
The same criticism of Form (paid shill?) applies to any of the Vortex freaks.
As Jordan said, Form’s scope testing aligns with my personal experiences, so I’m inclined to believe his advice.
I think it is certainly possible to thoroughly and accurately assess a scope and then drive across the country and hunt elk like a total goober. YMMV.
Do you believe a "top shooter" would take a sponsorship that made him lose over providing his own scope he can win with?
Depends on how much the sponsorship is. As for competitions, surely they check and double check their zero prior to a course of fire? That could mitigate the vortex wandering zero.
So you haven't done much competition shooting.
Well, for starters, for PRS you may fire up to a couple hundred rounds over the course of two or three days. You will dial up and down dozens of times. There is sometimes a zero-range set-up the day before to confirm zero, but that's just about it. PRS rifles get knocked around more in one match than you do in ten years of hunting. They have to hold zero and track. No, they aren't making compromises on gear because of a "sponsorship" that really doesn't amount to much more than discounted or free optics.
Lol hard-core competitions...guns getting "knocked around".... There's zero chance a competition guy doesn't check his zero if he dropped his 20lb gun during a stage.
Plus this isn't a competition discussion, it's a call out thread based off of innuendo and assumptions because a guy actually evaluates and provides objective information that makes people butthurt..lol
"The Illya guy" has been in the optics business for decades, both as an engineer and an executive in charge of various aspects from engineering to manufacturing, working for various companies. He's also a very avid shooter, who knows scopes both inside and outside, in the field.
That’s not my impression frankly at all. I have watched several videos of his and discussed some things via PM. The attitude was very ego like. And actually not based in actual shooting and field use. Like everything including things you, yes you say. Verify for yourself, isn’t that why we come here? To learn and be better.
Jordan, Do you actually think form is moving a scope to 20 different rifles? And even if he did each one would need 5000 rounds each put through it. He also never discusses the context of needing to shoot that much. I agree much of forms experience matches yours and mine too actually. For example I am not a vortex guy either and only think their Japanese stuff passes muster. But that is the key to forms forum following. He says things lots of people agree with and inserts his own motives to that spin. Those motives may not be what people think they are, nor is his level of experience and knowledge but may be just recycling forum bs and group think
Forums like this are notorious for group think and pack mentality.
"The Illya guy" has been in the optics business for decades, both as an engineer and an executive in charge of various aspects from engineering to manufacturing, working for various companies. He's also a very avid shooter, who knows scopes both inside and outside, in the field.
That’s not my impression frankly at all. I have watched several videos of his and discussed some things via PM. The attitude was very ego like. And actually not based in actual shooting and field use. Like everything including things you, yes you say. Verify for yourself, isn’t that why we come here? To learn and be better.
Jordan, Do you actually think form is moving a scope to 20 different rifles? And even if he did each one would need 5000 rounds each put through it. He also never discusses the context of needing to shoot that much. I agree much of forms experience matches yours and mine too actually. For example I am not a vortex guy either and only think their Japanese stuff passes muster. But that is the key to forms forum following. He says things lots of people agree with and inserts his own motives to that spin. Those motives may not be what people think they are, nor is his level of experience and knowledge but may be just recycling forum bs and group think
Forums like this are notorious for group think and pack mentality.
You are the galactic dumb f uck that STILL can't comprehend he said THE SCOPE had "x" amount of rounds on it.
People don't like Form because he is objective and he doesn't care about yer feelers, just the facts.
The Illya guy is just projecting.
Hate to break it too you, but an agenda is an agenda, and both have one.
If Vortex scope sucked half as bad and were half as fragile as he says, they wouldn't be on the rifles of top shooters in high numbers.
It is what it is, but anyone saying 100% of X scopes are good or 100% are bad is full of it and has an agenda. Whether said agenda is based on money or feelings doesn't really matter
If the “top shooters” are getting sponsored….
The same criticism of Form (paid shill?) applies to any of the Vortex freaks.
As Jordan said, Form’s scope testing aligns with my personal experiences, so I’m inclined to believe his advice.
I think it is certainly possible to thoroughly and accurately assess a scope and then drive across the country and hunt elk like a total goober. YMMV.
Do you believe a "top shooter" would take a sponsorship that made him lose over providing his own scope he can win with?
Depends on how much the sponsorship is. As for competitions, surely they check and double check their zero prior to a course of fire? That could mitigate the vortex wandering zero.
So you haven't done much competition shooting.
Well, for starters, for PRS you may fire up to a couple hundred rounds over the course of two or three days. You will dial up and down dozens of times. There is sometimes a zero-range set-up the day before to confirm zero, but that's just about it. PRS rifles get knocked around more in one match than you do in ten years of hunting. They have to hold zero and track. No, they aren't making compromises on gear because of a "sponsorship" that really doesn't amount to much more than discounted or free optics.
Lol hard-core competitions...guns getting "knocked around".... There's zero chance a competition guy doesn't check his zero if he dropped his 20lb gun during a stage.
Plus this isn't a competition discussion, it's a call out thread based off of innuendo and assumptions because a guy actually evaluates and provides objective information that makes people butthurt..lol
So you're absolutely clueless.
No, you don't get to stop the match to go check your gun. When your number is up, you shoot or take a zero. There usually is no zeroing range after the match starts because PRS matches take a lot of property and a lot of moving parts to fit all the stages in.
If you have zero experience about a subject, you should bow out rather than prove your ignorance.
People don't like Form because he is objective and he doesn't care about yer feelers, just the facts.
The Illya guy is just projecting.
Hate to break it too you, but an agenda is an agenda, and both have one.
If Vortex scope sucked half as bad and were half as fragile as he says, they wouldn't be on the rifles of top shooters in high numbers.
It is what it is, but anyone saying 100% of X scopes are good or 100% are bad is full of it and has an agenda. Whether said agenda is based on money or feelings doesn't really matter
If the “top shooters” are getting sponsored….
The same criticism of Form (paid shill?) applies to any of the Vortex freaks.
As Jordan said, Form’s scope testing aligns with my personal experiences, so I’m inclined to believe his advice.
I think it is certainly possible to thoroughly and accurately assess a scope and then drive across the country and hunt elk like a total goober. YMMV.
Do you believe a "top shooter" would take a sponsorship that made him lose over providing his own scope he can win with?
Depends on how much the sponsorship is. As for competitions, surely they check and double check their zero prior to a course of fire? That could mitigate the vortex wandering zero.
So you haven't done much competition shooting.
Well, for starters, for PRS you may fire up to a couple hundred rounds over the course of two or three days. You will dial up and down dozens of times. There is sometimes a zero-range set-up the day before to confirm zero, but that's just about it. PRS rifles get knocked around more in one match than you do in ten years of hunting. They have to hold zero and track. No, they aren't making compromises on gear because of a "sponsorship" that really doesn't amount to much more than discounted or free optics.
Lol hard-core competitions...guns getting "knocked around".... There's zero chance a competition guy doesn't check his zero if he dropped his 20lb gun during a stage.
Plus this isn't a competition discussion, it's a call out thread based off of innuendo and assumptions because a guy actually evaluates and provides objective information that makes people butthurt..lol
So you're absolutely clueless.
No, you don't get to stop the match to go check your gun. If you have zero experience about a subject, you should bow out rather than prove your ignorance.
Well the discussion isn't about competitions. Retards that larp on the weekends try desperately to steer every discussion towards their larping, however that's not what the thread is about. The thread is a call out thread because butthurt b itches don't like someone.
Nobody cares about your love of competitions and vortex.
Well the discussion isn't about competitions. Retards that larp on the weekends try desperately to steer every discussion towards their larping, however that's not what the thread is about. The thread is a call out thread because butthurt b itches don't like someone.
Nobody cares about your love of competitions and vortex.
I made no claim about love of competition or of Vortex. I said you've got no idea.
You're a [bleep] idiot. People are successful with certain brands in competition. You claimed it was because they are paid to use it, get to baby the gear, and get to re-zero. You have no clue about scopes, no clue about competition, or reality. You made claims you can't back up.
Maybe you should ask yourself how so many people can be successful with the gear you don't like, but you're too stupid to figure out.
People are successful with certain brands in competition. You claimed it was because they are paid to use it, get to baby the gear, and get to re-zero. .
That's correct.
But again, this discussion has zero to do with competitions, no matter how desperately you want it to be.
People are successful with certain brands in competition. You claimed it was because they are paid to use it, get to baby the gear, and get to re-zero. .
That's correct.
But again, this discussion has zero to do with competitions, no matter how desperately you want it to be.
Vortex sucks. Now go cry about it..
Show me on the doll where you were hurt by people addressing the point YOU made.
You see, you're a dumbass, and I'll post whatever I damn well please, boy.
People are successful with certain brands in competition. You claimed it was because they are paid to use it, get to baby the gear, and get to re-zero. .
That's correct.
But again, this discussion has zero to do with competitions, no matter how desperately you want it to be.
"The Illya guy" has been in the optics business for decades, both as an engineer and an executive in charge of various aspects from engineering to manufacturing, working for various companies. He's also a very avid shooter, who knows scopes both inside and outside, in the field.
People are successful with certain brands in competition. You claimed it was because they are paid to use it, get to baby the gear, and get to re-zero. .
That's correct.
But again, this discussion has zero to do with competitions, no matter how desperately you want it to be.
People are successful with certain brands in competition. You claimed it was because they are paid to use it, get to baby the gear, and get to re-zero. .
That's correct.
But again, this discussion has zero to do with competitions, no matter how desperately you want it to be.
Vortex sucks. Now go cry about it..
Show me on the doll where you were hurt by people addressing the point YOU made.
You see, you're a dumbass, and I'll post whatever I damn well please, boy.
Awwww somebody got their feelers hurt. Yes it's just reality, nobody cares about your competitions or vortex. Such outrage over games.
People are successful with certain brands in competition. You claimed it was because they are paid to use it, get to baby the gear, and get to re-zero. .
That's correct.
But again, this discussion has zero to do with competitions, no matter how desperately you want it to be.
Vortex sucks. Now go cry about it..
Show me on the doll where you were hurt by people addressing the point YOU made.
You see, you're a dumbass, and I'll post whatever I damn well please, boy.
Awwww somebody got their feelers hurt. Yes it's just reality, nobody cares about your competitions or vortex. Such outrage over games.
Go cry more.
Not at all, just here to watch you prove to the world how stupid you are.
Some advice for you: when you find yourself trapped in a hole, stop digging.
People are successful with certain brands in competition. You claimed it was because they are paid to use it, get to baby the gear, and get to re-zero. .
That's correct.
But again, this discussion has zero to do with competitions, no matter how desperately you want it to be.
Vortex sucks. Now go cry about it..
Jacksonhandjob.
Solid entry to the 24hr Dumbfuqk Hall of Fame
😆
Here comes the larping brigade...
Like you do every day being on this forum. You don't shoot, you don't hunt, you just run your cock-holster.
People are successful with certain brands in competition. You claimed it was because they are paid to use it, get to baby the gear, and get to re-zero. .
That's correct.
But again, this discussion has zero to do with competitions, no matter how desperately you want it to be.
Vortex sucks. Now go cry about it..
Jacksonhandjob.
Solid entry to the 24hr Dumbfuqk Hall of Fame
😆
Here comes the larping brigade...
Like you do every day being on this forum. You don't shoot, you don't hunt, you just run your cock-holster.
I guarantee I hunt more than you think about hunting...and not from a heated box blind. Probably shoot more too.
Be outraged.
People hate form because he dare push back against the fuddlore wives tales do-nothing-betas live by. Just like you.
People are successful with certain brands in competition. You claimed it was because they are paid to use it, get to baby the gear, and get to re-zero. .
That's correct.
But again, this discussion has zero to do with competitions, no matter how desperately you want it to be.
Vortex sucks. Now go cry about it..
Jacksonhandjob.
Solid entry to the 24hr Dumbfuqk Hall of Fame
😆
Here comes the larping brigade...
Like you do every day being on this forum. You don't shoot, you don't hunt, you just run your cock-holster.
I guarantee I hunt more than you think about hunting...and not from a heated box blind. Probably shoot more too.
Be outraged.
Outraged at a little piss-ant on the internet, telling lies as spilling his ignorance? Hardly. You're a laughing stock to anybody that knows anything.
People are successful with certain brands in competition. You claimed it was because they are paid to use it, get to baby the gear, and get to re-zero. .
That's correct.
But again, this discussion has zero to do with competitions, no matter how desperately you want it to be.
Vortex sucks. Now go cry about it..
Jacksonhandjob.
Solid entry to the 24hr Dumbfuqk Hall of Fame
😆
Here comes the larping brigade...
Like you do every day being on this forum. You don't shoot, you don't hunt, you just run your cock-holster.
I guarantee I hunt more than you think about hunting...and not from a heated box blind. Probably shoot more too.
Be outraged.
Outraged at a little piss-ant on the internet, telling lies as spilling his ignorance? Hardly. You're a laughing stock to anybody that knows anything.
Awwww you poor poor thing....
Was it the heated blind part that hit home? Lol what a b itch
Something struck a nerve with the handy-giver. At first I thought you were upset you're too stupid to understand how to use a scope, but giving handys is your forte.
It was Form...you gave him the handy, didn't you? I bet it made you feel real useful. That's why you're white knighting. He's your boyfriend. You make such a cute couple. We know you're the reciever.
Something struck a nerve with the handy-giver. At first I thought you were upset you're too stupid to understand how to use a scope, but giving handys is your forte.
Your emotional outrage is telling lol
What a crybaby b itch. Tell a guy nobody cares about his adult games and he loses it.
It was Form...you gave him the handy, didn't you? I bet it made you feel real useful. That's why you're white knighting. He's your boyfriend. You make such a cute couple. We know you're the reciever.
Do you have a picture of the shoot house you're so emotional about? Is there a recliner?
Did form make a mess on you? I bet you slurped it all up, like a good white knight.
Now you're delving into your sexual fantasies, instead of your competition fantasies. Very revealing that you jump immediately to homo-erotic fantasies when confronted with facts that make you upset.
I guess now we know what you're really doing in your deer blind instead of "hunting".........
"The Illya guy" has been in the optics business for decades, both as an engineer and an executive in charge of various aspects from engineering to manufacturing, working for various companies. He's also a very avid shooter, who knows scopes both inside and outside, in the field.
If you think all of one brand is bad, or all of one brand is good, you're a fool.
Guys that are good at shooting and are winning aren't accepting endorsements and using scopes that don't work. That's just not how it works.
Lots of folks having problems with NF Comps lately and selling them.
That's rich.
The topic isn't competitions lol but yet that's all you post about.
His evaluations are what they are. He's never said they reflect what can be expected from every single scope from X manufacturer. But if 5 out of 5 show issues, the probability is high the sixth will too. That's it.
Just don't listen if it triggers you so much. It's real simple.
Something else interesting is that the competition shooter can make a scope track, it is receiving a much harder life atop a high-round count rifle than in any hunting scenario. It hurts peoples' feelings, but its true.
Some little girls really do get triggered about hearing about things that crush their notions about things. If they had experience, they would know. But instead they look for internet randos and clutch their pearls at their tests.
Something else interesting is that the competition shooter can make a scope track, it is receiving a much harder life atop a high-round count rifle than in any hunting scenario. It hurts peoples' feelings, but its true.
Your version of "hunting", I'm sure. Some of us don't get out of the pickup, walk 5yds to the condo blind. Lol lol
Prs is more strenuous than hunting? Lol lol lol lol lol what a clueless tard
"The Illya guy" has been in the optics business for decades, both as an engineer and an executive in charge of various aspects from engineering to manufacturing, working for various companies. He's also a very avid shooter, who knows scopes both inside and outside, in the field.
Pardon the pissing match for a second. Who is this "Illya guy"
Aww, the Handy-giver fires hundreds of rounds trying to kill an animal when she hunts.
In preparation? Absolutely. Several hundreds actually.
You are asserting that the act of hunting is less strenuous on a weapon system merely because it's fired more? That's an extremely one sided thought process.
Gently placing a rifle on a sand bag is harder on a rifle than hunting? Lol Lol ok. You are a sheltered fool. The f ucking vehicle ride to the trailhead is worse than that most hunts lol
"The Illya guy" has been in the optics business for decades, both as an engineer and an executive in charge of various aspects from engineering to manufacturing, working for various companies. He's also a very avid shooter, who knows scopes both inside and outside, in the field.
Pardon the pissing match for a second. Who is this "Illya guy"
A guy that definitely isn't paid by optic companies to evaluate their products.
Interestingly enough, I just listened to a podcast that Form was on with the Shoot to Hunt guys (Avery owns Rokslide) from a year ago or so, where he emphatically stated that he has never received a single dollar from any firearm industry forum, and was clear that he isn't paid by Rokslide.
Did talk about a bunch of industry guys being butthurt about their scopes being evaluated though. And people being butthurt when their favorite brand doesn't do well. Which, that sounds pretty legit give how the optics forum goes around here.
You two do realize you're arguing apples to oranges, concerning the whole 'hunting' vs 'PRS' thing right?
Nevermind that question. I won't believe either of you two are dumb enough to NOT realize it. You just both have too big of egos and are too ignorant to admit it, like many others on this board.
Aww, the Handy-giver fires hundreds of rounds trying to kill an animal when she hunts.
In preparation? Absolutely. Several hundreds actually.
You are asserting that the act of hunting is less strenuous on a weapon system merely because it's fired more? That's an extremely one sided thought process.
Gently placing a rifle on a sand bag is harder on a rifle than hunting? Lol Lol ok. You are a sheltered fool. The f ucking vehicle ride to the trailhead is worse than that most hunts lol
Again, you've never been to a match and don't know a thing about it. You don't know anything about it. You think a thirty second clip from a manicured match is the totality? Nope. But if I had to carry hundreds of rounds to the field to kill one animal like you do, I'd be embarrassed. I guess that's why you took to giving Handys to [bleep] you white-knight for.
You two do realize you're arguing apples to oranges, concerning the whole 'hunting' vs 'PRS' thing right?
Nevermind that question. I won't believe either of you two are dumb enough to NOT realize it. You just both have too big of egos and are too ignorant to admit it, like many others on this board.
Carry on.
Of course I know. I also know this thread wasn't ever about competitions.
Aww, the Handy-giver fires hundreds of rounds trying to kill an animal when she hunts.
In preparation? Absolutely. Several hundreds actually.
You are asserting that the act of hunting is less strenuous on a weapon system merely because it's fired more? That's an extremely one sided thought process.
Gently placing a rifle on a sand bag is harder on a rifle than hunting? Lol Lol ok. You are a sheltered fool. The f ucking vehicle ride to the trailhead is worse than that most hunts lol
Again, you've never been to a match and don't know a thing about it. You don't know anything about it. You think a thirty second clip from a manicured match is the totality? Nope. But if I had to carry hundreds of rounds to the field to kill one animal like you do, I'd be embarrassed. I guess that's why you took to giving Handys to [bleep] you white-knight for.
It's OK that all you do is play games and never hunt. But unfortunately this thread was never about competitions.
I get it, hunting out of a box blind is less demanding on a weapon system in comparison to your games. That's cool.
But for folks that actually hunt, there's no comparison. Zero. Nada. Zilch.
Interestingly enough, I just listened to a podcast that Form was on with the Shoot to Hunt guys (Avery owns Rokslide) from a year ago or so, where he emphatically stated that he has never received a single dollar from any firearm industry forum, and was clear that he isn't paid by Rokslide.
Did talk about a bunch of industry guys being butthurt about their scopes being evaluated though. And people being butthurt when their favorite brand doesn't do well. Which, that sounds pretty legit give how the optics forum goes around here.
Do you have a link for that podcast?
I was going to send it via pm, but you are a beta b itch and blocked me. But because I'm a nice guy and know you are waaaay to dumb to find it for yourself.....here ya go.
We don't understand how you can type one-handed so well. Must be all the handy practice. You're a joke.
You literally have not made a post in this thread that was on topic. Your posts in this thread are primarily trying to convince people that competitions are relevant (because you like them). Ok.
Now do you or anyone else have evidence Form is paid by optic companies?
Blindly trusting any anonymous online user doesn’t seem like a good practice.
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Why not just trust yourself and your experience? Works for me..
My thoughts also.
I get entertainment out of the personalities on here and have learned tidbits from most of them. I tend to question the fanboys of any of them. Be your own person.
Ultimately, you have to sort through all the information presented. Take into account egos, financial interests, then make your own decision. Continue evaluating based on your experience and move forward.
I am fortunate enough to have a friend that builds accurate rifles, shoots a lot and has no personal agenda except putting bullet where intended and offering assistance if asked. If it works, he uses it. If it doesn't he moves on.
Have respect for those on here that offer help, without the drama.
The world is full of knowledgeable people, the nice thing is... You can decide who to learn from.
"The Illya guy" has been in the optics business for decades, both as an engineer and an executive in charge of various aspects from engineering to manufacturing, working for various companies. He's also a very avid shooter, who knows scopes both inside and outside, in the field.
Pardon the pissing match for a second. Who is this "Illya guy"
Yeah I had to go back a bit. It’s a guy on snipers hide who said that form had outlandish stories and had an ax to grind with vortex.
Yep, because his name in Ilya (not "Illya") Koshkin. But he doesn't post much here anymore (only 16 times in 2023, and none so far in 2024), probably because he got tired of the Campfire optics forum BS.
Met him at the SHOT Show around 20 years ago, after we'd corresponded some.
I guarantee I hunt more than you think about hunting...and not from a heated box blind. Probably shoot more too.
Be outraged.
People hate form because he dare push back against the fuddlore wives tales do-nothing-betas live by. Just like you.
I only hunted about two months in total days...so you're right, you probably sat in your climate controlled blind far more than I hunted this yr.
J_H,
What species in what AO's did you hunt those two months? Would love to see success pics and equipment data...thanks!
Species? Elk, antelope, huns, and chukar. Equipment data??
Equipment data like rifles (action/stock/chamberings/bullets), optics(ie this thread!): scopes, binocs, spotters...that stuff. And AO's.
That's why a lot of us come here. To learn that stuff...
That's not the topic of this thread.
Sorry, didn't mean to veer off topic. I have one of the lowest post:years here ratios of active users on the site.
What WOULD be the appropriate thread to learn such?
Give up trying to have a productive conversation with them. They are a drama queen with a pissy disposition.
Gotcha. Thanks, Paul. Again, I'm an obvious few times a year poster...
It's easy to fool a fool, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. Jman post your preferred culling device. I googled all you mentioned and it seems like you have a dream job. Pictures would be appreciated.
PS form is full of [bleep] but I'd take him over a guy that hunts, owns guns and votes democrat.
Yeah, I hadn't got caught up that far in the thread yet. I was being polite and answering Paul's question before I carried on reading the rest of this train wreck...
I welcome someone testing equipment to see how robust it is. And like to read their findings. I don't want to buy equipment that won't work when I spend hours and days sitting in the cold waiting for my shot. I don't like spending my money on unreliable equipment. I have with a brand that was pumped up for years as being good. It used to be and now it isn't anymore. I like to have information so I can make a choice.
FWIW, I trust my own experience but I also enjoy learning from others. It just so happens that the most scope problems Ive had have been from cheap Vortex, Leupolds, and Swaros, so I don’t use them anymore. Those also happen to be Forms most common whipping boys. I listen to what Form says when it makes logical sense (like larger shot groups) and I tune out other times when it doesn’t (like never cleaning a barrel). I listen, but I don’t take everything as gospel. If anything, he brought the importance of zero retention to light as something the consumer should demand and I think scopes are or will be built better as a result.
As for Illya, I don’t place much stock in many of his thoughts because he doesn’t hunt, and that’s all I care about. And he’s on the Vortex take. And he seems weird.
One of life’s important skills these days is being able to separate the wheat from the chaff on the internet. If you can’t you’re gonna get suckered.
I guarantee I hunt more than you think about hunting...and not from a heated box blind. Probably shoot more too.
Be outraged.
People hate form because he dare push back against the fuddlore wives tales do-nothing-betas live by. Just like you.
I only hunted about two months in total days...so you're right, you probably sat in your climate controlled blind far more than I hunted this yr.
J_H,
What species in what AO's did you hunt those two months? Would love to see success pics and equipment data...thanks!
Species? Elk, antelope, huns, and chukar. Equipment data??
Do you have any evidence Form gets paid by nightforce or forums?
What kind of scope you using on those birds?
He asked me what I hunted this year. And I used a 20ga over/under.
Nice. I'm sure humping those high and dry plains is hell on gear. Hopefully that O/U didn't get scratched too bad, and I'd hate to know what torture your scopes got put through chasing antelopes.
"The Illya guy" has been in the optics business for decades, both as an engineer and an executive in charge of various aspects from engineering to manufacturing, working for various companies. He's also a very avid shooter, who knows scopes both inside and outside, in the field.
Pardon the pissing match for a second. Who is this "Illya guy"
I guarantee I hunt more than you think about hunting...and not from a heated box blind. Probably shoot more too.
Be outraged.
People hate form because he dare push back against the fuddlore wives tales do-nothing-betas live by. Just like you.
I only hunted about two months in total days...so you're right, you probably sat in your climate controlled blind far more than I hunted this yr.
J_H,
What species in what AO's did you hunt those two months? Would love to see success pics and equipment data...thanks!
Species? Elk, antelope, huns, and chukar. Equipment data??
Do you have any evidence Form gets paid by nightforce or forums?
What kind of scope you using on those birds?
He asked me what I hunted this year. And I used a 20ga over/under.
Nice. I'm sure humping those high and dry plains is hell on gear. Hopefully that O/U didn't get scratched too bad, and I'd hate to know what torture your scopes got put through chasing antelopes.
Nice. I'm sure you do way more hard-core stuff. Feel free to enlighten us.
Ps do you have any evidence Form gets paid by nightforce or forums?
Interesting post from Ilya Koshkin about Formidilosus over on snipershide from 2022... might be old news to you guys but I thought it was interesting.
Quote
He goes from forum to forum and bashes companies ….. I know that on at least a couple of forums he got paid to stick around, presumably because he spins a nice sounding story and attracts an audience.
In case you were wondering why Form doesn't post here anymore, it looks like Rokslide is probably paying him to post over there.
Interesting post from Ilya Koshkin about Formidilosus over on snipershide from 2022... might be old news to you guys but I thought it was interesting.
Quote
He goes from forum to forum and bashes companies ….. I know that on at least a couple of forums he got paid to stick around, presumably because he spins a nice sounding story and attracts an audience.
In case you were wondering why Form doesn't post here anymore, it looks like Rokslide is probably paying him to post over there.
And he has denied that, as can be heard in episode 34 on the shoot2hunt podcast.
Is there any evidence other than someone saying "they know"? Like how do they know, who told them? Who paid him? I think we'd all like to know.
Koshkin talking about another guy being a paid shill. Lol That's rich.
I quit taking him seriously a long time ago when he rated a Vortex Diamondback as better than a Burris Fullfield II. When I tried both, the Diamondback wasn't even close.
My personal experience is much closer to Form's. I've had better luck with Tasco than I have with Vortex. Meanwhile my SWFA SS have all been very durable. Not the best glass, but very durable.
People don't like Form because he is objective and he doesn't care about yer feelers, just the facts.
The Illya guy is just projecting.
Hate to break it too you, but an agenda is an agenda, and both have one.
If Vortex scope sucked half as bad and were half as fragile as he says, they wouldn't be on the rifles of top shooters in high numbers.
It is what it is, but anyone saying 100% of X scopes are good or 100% are bad is full of it and has an agenda. Whether said agenda is based on money or feelings doesn't really matter
If the “top shooters” are getting sponsored….
The same criticism of Form (paid shill?) applies to any of the Vortex freaks.
As Jordan said, Form’s scope testing aligns with my personal experiences, so I’m inclined to believe his advice.
I think it is certainly possible to thoroughly and accurately assess a scope and then drive across the country and hunt elk like a total goober. YMMV.
Do you believe a "top shooter" would take a sponsorship that made him lose over providing his own scope he can win with?
I think a top shooter might have to send scopes back for defects or repairs often and not disclose it to the public.
One of life’s important skills these days is being able to separate the wheat from the chaff on the internet. If you can’t you’re gonna get suckered.
The dumbest animal on earth has to be the American mindless sheep. They’ll believe a guy that cant sell more than 50 AR’s a year during the greatest gun buying period in history. Believe a guy that buys a restaurant for $500k in 90’s money, complete with roaches. But they won’t believe someone who is willing to give them an all expense paid trip, complete with multiple new, scopes(worth over a grand each), if they pass a simple test. clown world.
Watched portions of a few of those PRS matches a couple pages back. Having never been to a PRS match, it doesn't look like as much fun as I had pictured in my mind. Too much hopping around for my taste. I suppose they're trying to simulate more than just hunting type shooting. My experience hunting wide open country almost exclusively is that you take a position that allows you to room for follow-up shots on single targets (big game or called varmints), or you take a position that allows you to shoot extended periods at multiple targets from one spot (gophers/prairie-dogs).
I suppose not much different than any other disciplines, there will be folks who favor one over the other. I really enjoy shooting skeet, 5-stand, and sporting clays. I won't shoot trap. I worked @ the local trap club for 2 or 3 summers from 13-15 and basically surmised that "serious" trap shooters were almost all prissy A-Holes.
As to the OP, none of us will really know who's paid to do what on a given forum just by rumor and innuendo. I don't really find it all that difficult to discern bias pro/con from posters either, most fit a few fairly broad categories:
1. Sponsored by or has a business relationship with a manufacturer.
2. Has a personal "axe" to grind with a given manufacturer
3. Reads too much and shoots too little
4. Is on their own dime and lays out their results. Some do this with strong opinions regarding their perception of the results, some lay out their results with little to no opinion added
What all this bickering does is make one not believe what ANYBODY says about the optical stuff on here. After a few pages of shock value it just gets boring to us outsiders.
What all this bickering does is make one not believe what ANYBODY says about the optical stuff on here. After a few pages of shock value it just gets boring to us outsiders.
You don’t believe all you read about here about Leupold scopes?
Why not just trust yourself and your experience? Works for me..
If I did that, I wouldn't know what junk Leupold scopes are, or that I'd be better off if the safety locked down the bolt on all my rifles.
Well, at least you're half right. Pro tip: when EVERY bolt action rifle (save one, who also went bankrupt, has an entire cottage industry to "improve" the marque) safeties lock the bolt and yours doesn't , you might want to reconside, although I did see that Meateater guy use a rubber band (classy) to lock the bolt on his 700 once..
What all this bickering does is make one not believe what ANYBODY says about the optical stuff on here. After a few pages of shock value it just gets boring to us outsiders.
Wasn't this the guy that drove 40 hours to Montana to hunt elk, almost slid off a cliff a few times. JUMPED off one cliff into a tree 50 or 60 feet down and kept jumping into lower trees for about 600 feet to the bottom?
T_Inman posted the link recently. It's a good read but very, very far fetched.
People don't like Form because he is objective and he doesn't care about yer feelers, just the facts.
The Illya guy is just projecting.
Hate to break it too you, but an agenda is an agenda, and both have one.
If Vortex scope sucked half as bad and were half as fragile as he says, they wouldn't be on the rifles of top shooters in high numbers.
It is what it is, but anyone saying 100% of X scopes are good or 100% are bad is full of it and has an agenda. Whether said agenda is based on money or feelings doesn't really matter
If the “top shooters” are getting sponsored….
The same criticism of Form (paid shill?) applies to any of the Vortex freaks.
As Jordan said, Form’s scope testing aligns with my personal experiences, so I’m inclined to believe his advice.
I think it is certainly possible to thoroughly and accurately assess a scope and then drive across the country and hunt elk like a total goober. YMMV.
Do you believe a "top shooter" would take a sponsorship that made him lose over providing his own scope he can win with?
I think a top shooter might have to send scopes back for defects or repairs often and not disclose it to the public.
Won't stay a top shooter very long if your scope won't track or hold zero.
We don't understand how you can type one-handed so well. Must be all the handy practice. You're a joke.
You literally have not made a post in this thread that was on topic. Your posts in this thread are primarily trying to convince people that competitions are relevant (because you like them). Ok.
Now do you or anyone else have evidence Form is paid by optic companies?
The answer is no.
Wrong again. I responded to a post belly made, then you responded. Don't like it, cry big alligator tears there, handy-giver.
We don't understand how you can type one-handed so well. Must be all the handy practice. You're a joke.
You literally have not made a post in this thread that was on topic. Your posts in this thread are primarily trying to convince people that competitions are relevant (because you like them). Ok.
Now do you or anyone else have evidence Form is paid by optic companies?
The answer is no.
Wrong again. I responded to a post belly made, then you responded. Don't like it, cry big alligator tears there, handy-giver.
You threw a temper tantrum when I dare poke fun at yer box blind. Life must be hard for you being such a soft b itch.
This thread was over about competitions....yet here you b itch...
FWIW, I trust my own experience but I also enjoy learning from others. It just so happens that the most scope problems Ive had have been from cheap Vortex, Leupolds, and Swaros, so I don’t use them anymore. Those also happen to be Forms most common whipping boys. I listen to what Form says when it makes logical sense (like larger shot groups) and I tune out other times when it doesn’t (like never cleaning a barrel). I listen, but I don’t take everything as gospel. If anything, he brought the importance of zero retention to light as something the consumer should demand and I think scopes are or will be built better as a result.
As for Illya, I don’t place much stock in many of his thoughts because he doesn’t hunt, and that’s all I care about. And he’s on the Vortex take. And he seems weird.
One of life’s important skills these days is being able to separate the wheat from the chaff on the internet. If you can’t you’re gonna get suckered.
How do you know Ilya doesn't hunt?
As I posted previously on this thread, I first met him in 2004, when he had not only hunted varmints for a while, but was also starting to hunt big game. This was when he was working as an optical engineer for a company in California. Which may be why he eventually got a job with a company in Texas, where it's obviously easier to hunt bigger game.
He doesn't get to hunt as much as he wants, partly because he gets paid a lot to work for optical companies--and NOT as a "paid shill" but as an engineer and engineer supervisor. As I mentioned earlier, he's worked for various optics companies, so doesn't have any "agenda" for promoting one company.
As for Illya, I don’t place much stock in many of his thoughts because he doesn’t hunt, and that’s all I care about.
Hilarious
You give more weight to opinions about scopes to those who fire one shot on a hunt than those who shoot hundreds of rounds, abusing their equipment, dialing for 200 rounds a weekend
As for Illya, I don’t place much stock in many of his thoughts because he doesn’t hunt, and that’s all I care about.
Hilarious
You give more weight to opinions about scopes to those who fire one shot on a hunt than those who shoot hundreds of rounds, abusing their equipment, dialing for 200 rounds a weekend
The campfire is deranged
Actually, yes. Because when it all comes down to making that one shot, and 20 + years worth of points and applications are on the line, your system better be flawless. Only a hunter knows that feeling.
Actually, yes. Because when it all comes down to making that one shot, and 20 + years worth of points and applications are on the line, your system better be flawless. Only a hunter knows that feeling.
As for Illya, I don’t place much stock in many of his thoughts because he doesn’t hunt, and that’s all I care about.
Hilarious
You give more weight to opinions about scopes to those who fire one shot on a hunt than those who shoot hundreds of rounds, abusing their equipment, dialing for 200 rounds a weekend
A few thoughts from reading some (several) of the posts on this thread.
1. We benefit from reading as much as we can from industry experts and also reading between the lines. Sometimes hints are dropped that at the time can't, for a variety of reasons, be said by that person more obviously.
2. Yes, critical thinking demands examining what others say in light of your own experiences and the experiences of people you trust. Blindly trusting someone on the internet who you don't really know doesn't qualify as critical analysis. We often don't know the nature of relationships of people we don't know very well, particularly on the internet. People can be talking up or talking down a product for a variety of reasons.
3. For any product, product design, manufacturing process design, manufacturing techniques, worker training and motivation, and QA/QC are all important factors in the quality of any particular individual example of that product.
From what I've gathered from multiple sources, QA/QC in Communist China can be spotty at best. One person may not have any problems with a Chicom produced scope, but don't be surprised if a lot of other people have problems with that same model.
Same might be said for a very large and popular American scope company whose management apparently decided several years ago that quality wasn't as important as it had previously been deemed there.
There's been more than enough written on this forum over the years about a particular European optics company to know not to expect the "waterproofing" or durability to match the stunning quality of their glass.
The benefit of the internet is that a lot of info is available from a lot of sources. The challenge is to sift the wheat from the chaff and always be vigilant to critically evaluate each data point. The vast majority of us wouldn't know nearly as much as we do about optics without the internet.
Bottom line: When people share their experiences, evaluate the source, critically assess what they are saying in light of your own experiences and what other people you trust have said, and make your best choice based on your priorities and your assessment of all the available information.
If he does hunt, I stand corrected. Has he put out much material or scope reviews as it relates to the needs of big game hunters?
I don't know Koshkin from Adam, but given his credential as spelled out by MD, I'm betting he knows more about it than most anyone/everyone here whether it's competition, hunting, or some sort of ridiculous drop testing.
If he does hunt, I stand corrected. Has he put out much material or scope reviews as it relates to the needs of big game hunters?
I don't know Koshkin from Adam, but given his credential as spelled out by MD, I'm betting he knows more about it than most anyone/everyone here whether it's competition, hunting, or some sort of ridiculous drop testing.
Which scopes has he designed that we can judge his qualifications off of?
Which scopes has he designed that we can judge his qualifications off of?
This may be the most "24HC" thing ever. "I shoot more than everyone so I know it all" is accepted, and not an appeal to authority logical fallacy, but "Here's my engineering degree, and 20+ years working for scope companies" sure as heck isn't worth listening to.
The real question is... why do optics evoke such passionate opinions? everybody seems to separate into tribes and feel the need to fight the other tribe... crazy stuff
The real question is... why do optics evoke such passionate opinions? everybody seems to separate into tribes and feel the need to fight the other tribe... crazy stuff
The fun part is most of those with passionate opinions haven't done enough shooting/hunting to warrant them. At all.
belly, not sure who "we" is but why don't you ask him? I'm sure he pays great attention to what a bunch on internet experts think.
I’m not the one putting him forward as some kind of expert on the subject.
Originally Posted by goalie
Originally Posted by bellydeep
Which scopes has he designed that we can judge his qualifications off of?
This may be the most "24HC" thing ever. "I shoot more than everyone so I know it all" is accepted, and not an appeal to authority logical fallacy, but "Here's my engineering degree, and 20+ years working for scope companies" sure as heck isn't worth listening to.
God I hope the optics forum here never changes.
Blind trust/worship of the “experts” is total boomer b.s.
I’d venture to guess that the VAST majority of scopes are engineered by someone with similar credentials. We all know scopes are not created equal.
I’m not going to swallow anything just because an “expert” tells me to. Learned that lesson long ago.
Which scopes has he designed that we can judge his qualifications off of?
This may be the most "24HC" thing ever. "I shoot more than everyone so I know it all" is accepted, and not an appeal to authority logical fallacy, but "Here's my engineering degree, and 20+ years working for scope companies" sure as heck isn't worth listening to.
God I hope the optics forum here never changes.
Kind of like “brand or model X scope is mechanically reliable because here’s an animal I shot using mine.”
Which scopes has he designed that we can judge his qualifications off of?
This may be the most "24HC" thing ever. "I shoot more than everyone so I know it all" is accepted, and not an appeal to authority logical fallacy, but "Here's my engineering degree, and 20+ years working for scope companies" sure as heck isn't worth listening to.
God I hope the optics forum here never changes.
Kind of like “brand or model X scope is mechanically reliable because here’s an animal I shot using mine.”
You're not wrong. EVERY mechanical device can fail. All brands and models of scopes have failures.
But I'm laughing more at how one specific appeal to authority is "good" while another is "bad" here on the 24HC. Watching people use the exact same logical fallacy that they're attacking others for using won't ever stop being amusing.
Which scopes has he designed that we can judge his qualifications off of?
This may be the most "24HC" thing ever. "I shoot more than everyone so I know it all" is accepted, and not an appeal to authority logical fallacy, but "Here's my engineering degree, and 20+ years working for scope companies" sure as heck isn't worth listening to.
God I hope the optics forum here never changes.
Kind of like “brand or model X scope is mechanically reliable because here’s an animal I shot using mine.”
How many animals does a guy have to kill with brand/model x before it's deemed reliable?
The real question is... why do optics evoke such passionate opinions? everybody seems to separate into tribes and feel the need to fight the other tribe... crazy stuff
Same debate as Ford VS Chevy VS Dodge VS Cybertruck 🤣
Which scopes has he designed that we can judge his qualifications off of?
This may be the most "24HC" thing ever. "I shoot more than everyone so I know it all" is accepted, and not an appeal to authority logical fallacy, but "Here's my engineering degree, and 20+ years working for scope companies" sure as heck isn't worth listening to.
God I hope the optics forum here never changes.
Kind of like “brand or model X scope is mechanically reliable because here’s an animal I shot using mine.”
How many animals does a guy have to kill with brand/model x before it's deemed reliable?
Killing big animals and a scope's mechanical performance are not perfectly correlated, and they are certainly not causally related as is the implication in that type of claim. First, you have to quantify what you mean by "reliable." Does that mean that the scope can dial throughout its erector range and RTZ with less than 1% error at any point in the process, and that it can endure 100,000 impact events of 10+ Gs along any axis? Or, does it mean that the scope can be used to kill 20+ critters? I think we would agree that Tasco and Barska have proven the latter to be a poor metric of a scope's mechanical reliability. There are much better metrics to assess the mechanical reliability of a scope than pictures of dead animals.
Which scopes has he designed that we can judge his qualifications off of?
This may be the most "24HC" thing ever. "I shoot more than everyone so I know it all" is accepted, and not an appeal to authority logical fallacy, but "Here's my engineering degree, and 20+ years working for scope companies" sure as heck isn't worth listening to.
God I hope the optics forum here never changes.
Kind of like “brand or model X scope is mechanically reliable because here’s an animal I shot using mine.”
You're not wrong. EVERY mechanical device can fail. All brands and models of scopes have failures.
Indeed, but how do the failure rates compare? Kind of like saying that all car and truck brands and models have failures. Yet, even without having access to failure rates, I think most people have a good sense of how the reliability of different car brands and models compare. Range Rover versus Toyota, for example.
Originally Posted by goalie
But I'm laughing more at how one specific appeal to authority is "good" while another is "bad" here on the 24HC. Watching people use the exact same logical fallacy that they're attacking others for using won't ever stop being amusing.
Which scopes has he designed that we can judge his qualifications off of?
This may be the most "24HC" thing ever. "I shoot more than everyone so I know it all" is accepted, and not an appeal to authority logical fallacy, but "Here's my engineering degree, and 20+ years working for scope companies" sure as heck isn't worth listening to.
God I hope the optics forum here never changes.
Kind of like “brand or model X scope is mechanically reliable because here’s an animal I shot using mine.”
How many animals does a guy have to kill with brand/model x before it's deemed reliable?
Killing big animals and a scope's mechanical performance are not perfectly correlated, and they are certainly not causally related as is the implication in that type of claim. First, you have to quantify what you mean by "reliable." Does that mean that the scope can dial throughout its erector range and RTZ with less than 1% error at any point in the process, and that it can endure 100,000 impact events of 10+ Gs along any axis? Or, does it mean that the scope can be used to kill 20+ critters? I think we would agree that Tasco and Barska have proven the latter to be a poor metric of a scope's mechanical reliability. There are much better metrics to assess the mechanical reliability of a scope than pictures of dead animals.
What if it's a non dialer? and holds POI? Does it still need to go through getting the crap beat out of it and spinning the dials to be reliable?
Which scopes has he designed that we can judge his qualifications off of?
This may be the most "24HC" thing ever. "I shoot more than everyone so I know it all" is accepted, and not an appeal to authority logical fallacy, but "Here's my engineering degree, and 20+ years working for scope companies" sure as heck isn't worth listening to.
God I hope the optics forum here never changes.
Kind of like “brand or model X scope is mechanically reliable because here’s an animal I shot using mine.”
How many animals does a guy have to kill with brand/model x before it's deemed reliable?
Killing big animals and a scope's mechanical performance are not perfectly correlated, and they are certainly not causally related as is the implication in that type of claim. First, you have to quantify what you mean by "reliable." Does that mean that the scope can dial throughout its erector range and RTZ with less than 1% error at any point in the process, and that it can endure 100,000 impact events of 10+ Gs along any axis? Or, does it mean that the scope can be used to kill 20+ critters? I think we would agree that Tasco and Barska have proven the latter to be a poor metric of a scope's mechanical reliability. There are much better metrics to assess the mechanical reliability of a scope than pictures of dead animals.
What if it's a non dialer? and holds POI? Does it still need to go through getting the crap beat out of it and spinning the dials to be reliable?
If you're only interested in the zero retention aspect of mechanical reliability for a particular scope, then you define mechanical reliability accordingly. But I think we would all agree that number of critters killed is a pretty indirect way of assessing mechanical reliability compared to other metrics, including the hotly debated drop test.
There is a difference between a scope that is mechanically reliable and one that can be used to kill things. Sometimes the two scope qualities overlap, but not always, and they are conflated by the “brand or model X scope is mechanically reliable because here’s an animal I shot using mine” mentality.
I paid attention to a couple of "experts" on here Mac Sage and Atse and bought a 308 Tikka T3 light and a SS 3-9 hd. 6500 rounds later I am still happy.
Which scopes has he designed that we can judge his qualifications off of?
This may be the most "24HC" thing ever. "I shoot more than everyone so I know it all" is accepted, and not an appeal to authority logical fallacy, but "Here's my engineering degree, and 20+ years working for scope companies" sure as heck isn't worth listening to.
God I hope the optics forum here never changes.
Kind of like “brand or model X scope is mechanically reliable because here’s an animal I shot using mine.”
How many animals does a guy have to kill with brand/model x before it's deemed reliable?
Killing big animals and a scope's mechanical performance are not perfectly correlated, and they are certainly not causally related as is the implication in that type of claim. First, you have to quantify what you mean by "reliable." Does that mean that the scope can dial throughout its erector range and RTZ with less than 1% error at any point in the process, and that it can endure 100,000 impact events of 10+ Gs along any axis? Or, does it mean that the scope can be used to kill 20+ critters? I think we would agree that Tasco and Barska have proven the latter to be a poor metric of a scope's mechanical reliability. There are much better metrics to assess the mechanical reliability of a scope than pictures of dead animals.
What if it's a non dialer? and holds POI? Does it still need to go through getting the crap beat out of it and spinning the dials to be reliable?
If you're only interested in the zero retention aspect of mechanical reliability for a particular scope, then you define mechanical reliability accordingly. But I think we would all agree that number of critters killed is a pretty indirect way of assessing mechanical reliability compared to other metrics, including the hotly debated drop test.
There is a difference between a scope that is mechanically reliable and one that can be used to kill things. Sometimes the two scope qualities overlap, but not always, and they are conflated by the “brand or model X scope is mechanically reliable because here’s an animal I shot using mine” mentality.
Not necessarily. Shrapnel's killed hundreds upon hundreds of gophers and prarie dogs. Shrap uses a Swaro something or other that diehard dialers and flat brimmers pronounce as unreliable. I find that laughable. My buddy up in Oklahoma is a gov't animal control shooter who uses an Arken on one of his customs, another "unreliable" scope as deemed by the drop test brigade. His has performed perfectly on a wide variety of hundreds of animals. I find that "unreliable" description laughable as well.
If you're only interested in the zero retention aspect of mechanical reliability for a particular scope, then you define mechanical reliability accordingly. But I think we would all agree that number of critters killed is a pretty indirect way of assessing mechanical reliability compared to other metrics, including the hotly debated drop test.
There is a difference between a scope that is mechanically reliable and one that can be used to kill things. Sometimes the two scope qualities overlap, but not always, and they are conflated by the “brand or model X scope is mechanically reliable because here’s an animal I shot using mine” mentality.
Not necessarily. Shrapnel's killed hundreds upon hundreds of gophers and prarie dogs. Shrap uses a Swaro something or other that diehard dialers and flat brimmers pronounce as unreliable. I find that laughable. My buddy up in Oklahoma is a gov't animal control shooter who uses an Arken on one of his customs, another "unreliable" scope as deemed by the drop test brigade. His has performed perfectly on a wide variety of hundreds of animals. I find that "unreliable" description laughable as well.
Again, that depends on how you define "reliable." Killing hundreds of prairie dogs or BG critters says little about how well the scope retained zero or how well it dialed. Typically, "mechanical reliability" means that the scope performs all intended functions correctly and repeatably. Since all modern scopes are designed to adjust the erector, people often include the ability to dial and RTZ in the general definition of "mechanically reliable." But even if you only consider the ability to retain zero, killing gophers and big game does not mean that the scope retains zero perfectly. Even if the scope shifts 1 MOA between shots, the average hunter would never know, based on the distance and target size inherent in 95% of big game kills. Even when talking about killing gophers - and I've killed thousands and thousands of gophers, as well, so I am familiar with the rifle and scope requirements - a 0.5-1 MOA shift between shots would still result in many dead gophers, and the misses would likely be blamed on the shooter.
"Mechanically unreliable" does not mean that the scope can't be used to kill critters effectively. It all depends on the requirements, and how you define "reliable enough."
So a scope can be a proven, reliable killer while at the same time still not be reliable?
Absolutely, depending on what the bolded word means.
You said it, "reliable killer" is not necessarily the same thing as "reliable dialer" or "reliable zero holder," etc. And certainly, just because one sample of model X is "mechanically reliable," or even a "reliable killer," does not mean that the entire population of model X scopes is.
Agree 100% with everything Jordan posted in the above posts.
Would also add, a "drop test" will likely provide more helpful data for a guy who's backpacking in the mountains than a guy who walks to a deer stand or shoots gophers next to a pickup truck (both of which are supremely satisfying pursuits).
Also, if an erector sucks, it doesn't matter if the scope is used for dialing or is just a set and forget BDC reticle.
Like I said somewhere else, I currently have 14 (maybe more) Leupold scopes. But I've known for a long time what a half-assed erector system they have - long before I read Form's comments. His, and others, observations only reinforced what I'd already seen myself. I'd also add, his scope mounting is EXACTLY how I've mounted scopes for the last 35 years. Apparently we think about mechanical things similarly.
I want Leupold to be better than they are, but they aren't. Probably good enough for what I do or will do in the future, but if I were serious about dialing I'd be 100% in with NF, SWFA, Trijicon, or a couple others.
Which scopes has he designed that we can judge his qualifications off of?
This may be the most "24HC" thing ever. "I shoot more than everyone so I know it all" is accepted, and not an appeal to authority logical fallacy, but "Here's my engineering degree, and 20+ years working for scope companies" sure as heck isn't worth listening to.
God I hope the optics forum here never changes.
Kind of like “brand or model X scope is mechanically reliable because here’s an animal I shot using mine.”
How many animals does a guy have to kill with brand/model x before it's deemed reliable?
Killing big animals and a scope's mechanical performance are not perfectly correlated, and they are certainly not causally related as is the implication in that type of claim. First, you have to quantify what you mean by "reliable." Does that mean that the scope can dial throughout its erector range and RTZ with less than 1% error at any point in the process, and that it can endure 100,000 impact events of 10+ Gs along any axis? Or, does it mean that the scope can be used to kill 20+ critters? I think we would agree that Tasco and Barska have proven the latter to be a poor metric of a scope's mechanical reliability. There are much better metrics to assess the mechanical reliability of a scope than pictures of dead animals.
What if it's a non dialer? and holds POI? Does it still need to go through getting the crap beat out of it and spinning the dials to be reliable?
If you're only interested in the zero retention aspect of mechanical reliability for a particular scope, then you define mechanical reliability accordingly. But I think we would all agree that number of critters killed is a pretty indirect way of assessing mechanical reliability compared to other metrics, including the hotly debated drop test.
There is a difference between a scope that is mechanically reliable and one that can be used to kill things. Sometimes the two scope qualities overlap, but not always, and they are conflated by the “brand or model X scope is mechanically reliable because here’s an animal I shot using mine” mentality.
Not necessarily. Shrapnel's killed hundreds upon hundreds of gophers and prarie dogs. Shrap uses a Swaro something or other that diehard dialers and flat brimmers pronounce as unreliable. I find that laughable. My buddy up in Oklahoma is a gov't animal control shooter who uses an Arken on one of his customs, another "unreliable" scope as deemed by the drop test brigade. His has performed perfectly on a wide variety of hundreds of animals. I find that "unreliable" description laughable as well.
On a good day hundreds and hundreds sometimes won't get us much past lunch time.
So a scope can be a proven, reliable killer while at the same time still not be reliable?
Absolutely, depending on what the bolded word means.
You said it, "reliable killer" is not necessarily the same thing as "reliable dialer" or "reliable zero holder," etc. And certainly, just because one sample of model X is "mechanically reliable," or even a "reliable killer," does not mean that the entire population of model X scopes is.
So a scope can be a proven, reliable killer while at the same time still not be reliable?
Absolutely, depending on what the bolded word means.
You said it, "reliable killer" is not necessarily the same thing as "reliable dialer" or "reliable zero holder," etc. And certainly, just because one sample of model X is "mechanically reliable," or even a "reliable killer," does not mean that the entire population of model X scopes is.
Just funnin' around a little, hope you know that.
You bet, JG. We're all here because we enjoy cussing and discussing this stuff.
Ugh...really? This is the ‘hunting optics’ forum right?
People can read, and some even know what section they’re reading in. You prs pansies can bugger off to some prs pansy sub forum. None of your horsesh1t matters here.
Agree 100% with everything Jordan posted in the above posts.
Would also add, a "drop test" will likely provide more helpful data for a guy who's backpacking in the mountains than a guy who walks to a deer stand or shoots gophers next to a pickup truck (both of which are supremely satisfying pursuits).
Also, if an erector sucks, it doesn't matter if the scope is used for dialing or is just a set and forget BDC reticle.
Like I said somewhere else, I currently have 14 (maybe more) Leupold scopes. But I've known for a long time what a half-assed erector system they have - long before I read Form's comments. His, and others, observations only reinforced what I'd already seen myself. I'd also add, his scope mounting is EXACTLY how I've mounted scopes for the last 35 years. Apparently we think about mechanical things similarly.
I want Leupold to be better than they are, but they aren't. Probably good enough for what I do or will do in the future, but if I were serious about dialing I'd be 100% in with NF, SWFA, Trijicon, or a couple others.
Not necessarily. Shrapnel's killed hundreds upon hundreds of gophers and prarie dogs. Shrap uses a Swaro something or other that diehard dialers and flat brimmers pronounce as unreliable. I find that laughable. My buddy up in Oklahoma is a gov't animal control shooter who uses an Arken on one of his customs, another "unreliable" scope as deemed by the drop ll.
Again, that depends on how you define "reliable." Killing hundreds of prairie dogs or BG critters says little about how well the scope retained zero or how well it dialed. Typically, "mechanical reliability" means that the scope performs all intended functions correctly and repeatably. Since all modern scopes are designed to adjust the erector, people often include the ability to dial and RTZ in the general definition of "mechanically reliable." But even if you only consider the ability to retain zero, killing gophers and big game does not mean that the scope retains zero perfectly. Even if the scope shifts 1 MOA between shots, the average hunter would never know, based on the distance and target size inherent in 95% of big game kills. Even when talking about killing gophers - and I've killed thousands and thousands of gophers, as well, so I am familiar with the rifle and scope requirements - a 0.5-1 MOA shift between shots would still result in many dead gophers, and the misses would likely be blamed on the shooter.
"Mechanically unreliable" does not mean that the scope can't be used to kill critters effectively. It all depends on the requirements, and how you define "reliable enough."
Just perusing this thread early in the morning... I've got a couple of old Tasco 4 x 16 scopes on top of a few rifles, that I use for shooting sage rats. They have sent rounds down range and have killed thousands upon thousands of sage rats, reliably out to and pass 200 yds. Does that mean these scopes pass all these varying tests? Does it mean they are excellent scopes? Especially considering they were bought with prices being between $69 and $75 bucks?
If it does the job you desire out of a scope, does that count at all, or do we all need the most expensive scope on top, to do the job or to impress the crowds? Me having a $2000 scope on top of a rifle, would be like me putting 100 octane fuel, in the old VWs I use to drive back in my college days...wouldn't get me there any faster, or get me any better gas mileage.
If it does what I want, and I can see out of it, with my less than perfect eye sight, does what I need to do...and at least for me...I don't require that nice Night Force on top to impress anyone. Maybe if I had perfect eye sight still... but since I don't.
Agree 100% with everything Jordan posted in the above posts.
Would also add, a "drop test" will likely provide more helpful data for a guy who's backpacking in the mountains than a guy who walks to a deer stand or shoots gophers next to a pickup truck (both of which are supremely satisfying pursuits).
Also, if an erector sucks, it doesn't matter if the scope is used for dialing or is just a set and forget BDC reticle.
Like I said somewhere else, I currently have 14 (maybe more) Leupold scopes. But I've known for a long time what a half-assed erector system they have - long before I read Form's comments. His, and others, observations only reinforced what I'd already seen myself. I'd also add, his scope mounting is EXACTLY how I've mounted scopes for the last 35 years. Apparently we think about mechanical things similarly.
I want Leupold to be better than they are, but they aren't. Probably good enough for what I do or will do in the future, but if I were serious about dialing I'd be 100% in with NF, SWFA, Trijicon, or a couple others.
Boy that was pretty level headed with no emotion.
You sure this belongs in this section
Brad should be banned from the Optics forum. There's only so much Rick can let slide...
Agree 100% with everything Jordan posted in the above posts.
Would also add, a "drop test" will likely provide more helpful data for a guy who's backpacking in the mountains than a guy who walks to a deer stand or shoots gophers next to a pickup truck (both of which are supremely satisfying pursuits).
Also, if an erector sucks, it doesn't matter if the scope is used for dialing or is just a set and forget BDC reticle.
Like I said somewhere else, I currently have 14 (maybe more) Leupold scopes. But I've known for a long time what a half-assed erector system they have - long before I read Form's comments. His, and others, observations only reinforced what I'd already seen myself. I'd also add, his scope mounting is EXACTLY how I've mounted scopes for the last 35 years. Apparently we think about mechanical things similarly.
I want Leupold to be better than they are, but they aren't. Probably good enough for what I do or will do in the future, but if I were serious about dialing I'd be 100% in with NF, SWFA, Trijicon, or a couple others.
Boy that was pretty level headed with no emotion.
You sure this belongs in this section
Brad should be banned from the Optics forum. There's only so much Rick can let slide...
I’m with you, that honest and concise rhetoric won’t be tolerated for long.
So a scope can be a proven, reliable killer while at the same time still not be reliable?
I've had several scopes that were reliable killers and reliably bad. They may have dialed OK, but they still sucked. For instance, I had an Athlon that looked OK, seemed to dial OK, but had 3 MOA of parallax that couldn't be adjusted out. Would it have killed OK? Yeah, if you could put your head in the same spot every time.
Other scopes that wouldn't dial for schitt but were reliable killers. Just keep your paws off the dials.
Ugh...really? This is the ‘hunting optics’ forum right?
People can read, and some even know what section they’re reading in. You prs pansies can bugger off to some prs pansy sub forum. None of your horsesh1t matters here.
Killers for the win.
Just cussin and discussin.
Who you talking to? I’ve never shot a prs thing in my life. I don’t even know or care what prs is. All I do is hunt. But I also know when I read something sensible from an intelligent person.
Agree 100% with everything Jordan posted in the above posts.
Would also add, a "drop test" will likely provide more helpful data for a guy who's backpacking in the mountains than a guy who walks to a deer stand or shoots gophers next to a pickup truck (both of which are supremely satisfying pursuits).
Also, if an erector sucks, it doesn't matter if the scope is used for dialing or is just a set and forget BDC reticle.
Like I said somewhere else, I currently have 14 (maybe more) Leupold scopes. But I've known for a long time what a half-assed erector system they have - long before I read Form's comments. His, and others, observations only reinforced what I'd already seen myself. I'd also add, his scope mounting is EXACTLY how I've mounted scopes for the last 35 years. Apparently we think about mechanical things similarly.
I want Leupold to be better than they are, but they aren't. Probably good enough for what I do or will do in the future, but if I were serious about dialing I'd be 100% in with NF, SWFA, Trijicon, or a couple others.
Boy that was pretty level headed with no emotion.
You sure this belongs in this section
Brad should be banned from the Optics forum. There's only so much Rick can let slide...
I’m with you, that honest and concise rhetoric won’t be tolerated for long.
We need to talk to Rick. This whole reasonable rhetoric cannot be tolerated any further.
For backcountry hunting, a lot of guys are using a scabbard or a padded scope protector.
I would like to see drop tests with a padded scope protector.
I use a scabbard made by a member here. Very light and good. Good insurance.
Come on now Calvin. That's just silly. A real man drags his equipment through the muck and brush, and smears his hands with Crisco to make sure it slips periodically.
From a sensible hunter? Or prs pansy? You sure you’re getting the appropriate perspective for subject at hand?
We get it. You got embarrassed at the local outlaw match, so now you have an axe to grind with competitive shooters. It's gonna be just fine.
Lol, me at a match?
Hunt only, I like gear, and trialling, in field, my own gongs, my own 3d targets...then hunting, or fishing. Not playing touch willy at some match doing a bunch of the wrong kind of practice. But hey, if you’re bored and shoot is what your hobby is then giver. Hunt is mine. They still don’t make a match proper for hunting. 3d archery is close but where is that for the bang sticks? 200 rounds, sighters, little square plates (great on target reference...not), sighters, teams, much of it past real hunting distances, requiring unrealistic gear and methods. Don’t worry, even if they did get it right I’d still be hunting or fishing instead lol and prs pansies can tell my walls and my freezer how amazing ffp/mil Hubble tank is for filling both. 200 rounds...lmfao. The latest f-class.
I had this go round on rokslide and a guy who dove right in admitted he was so wrapped up in it his walls and freezer were empty. Guess some of you need to figure out what’s more important. Trying to be some rockstar to other dudes in matches or just out there doing it without giving a flying fack if anyone knows about it. And this these threads in hunting optics sections going on and on about all this useless sh1t.
Lol...we will right this ship. People will wake up and we will find ourselves a new trend to turn into a big ole money factory. Prs is a dandy right now but we will come full circle and focus on what’s fastest simplest toughest and best for 0-600 yards HUNTING prep, including a competition lol. And it won’t have square targets and it won’t be 200 rounds and it won’t have guns over 10 lbs, save your ‘but but nrl’ arguments, same wrong with it, not enough right. 1/2 to 3/4 sec time of flights like 3d, where killin happens, animals with flappers, solo, custom and reload, and factory including ammo, a box of shells a day.
Like I said, drag this crap into the prs pansy touch willy sub forums where it belongs. I get to be rude like this here lol, it’s great. So many lost in the weeds, can’t see the forest. 😉
Agree 100% with everything Jordan posted in the above posts.
Would also add, a "drop test" will likely provide more helpful data for a guy who's backpacking in the mountains than a guy who walks to a deer stand or shoots gophers next to a pickup truck (both of which are supremely satisfying pursuits).
Also, if an erector sucks, it doesn't matter if the scope is used for dialing or is just a set and forget BDC reticle.
Like I said somewhere else, I currently have 14 (maybe more) Leupold scopes. But I've known for a long time what a half-assed erector system they have - long before I read Form's comments. His, and others, observations only reinforced what I'd already seen myself. I'd also add, his scope mounting is EXACTLY how I've mounted scopes for the last 35 years. Apparently we think about mechanical things similarly.
I want Leupold to be better than they are, but they aren't. Probably good enough for what I do or will do in the future, but if I were serious about dialing I'd be 100% in with NF, SWFA, Trijicon, or a couple others.
bbbut, I backpack hunt, with a M700 (and the bolt locks down), with a Leupold.
Worse yet, I did have a horse fall and slide down a hill on the scabbard side, with a different M700 (the bolt locks down on that one too), with the same model of Leupold. Next day killed an elk at ~200yds. When I got home and checked the scope still held zero.
But worst of all, I use blue tape to line the inside of my scope rings (not Talley LWT’s), been doing it for years.
From a sensible hunter? Or prs pansy? You sure you’re getting the appropriate perspective for subject at hand?
We get it. You got embarrassed at the local outlaw match, so now you have an axe to grind with competitive shooters. It's gonna be just fine.
Lol, me at a match?
Hunt only, I like gear, and trialling, in field, my own gongs, my own 3d targets...then hunting, or fishing. Not playing touch willy at some match doing a bunch of the wrong kind of practice. But hey, if you’re bored and shoot is what your hobby is then giver. Hunt is mine. They still don’t make a match proper for hunting. 3d archery is close but where is that for the bang sticks? 200 rounds, sighters, little square plates (great on target reference...not), sighters, teams, much of it past real hunting distances, requiring unrealistic gear and methods. Don’t worry, even if they did get it right I’d still be hunting or fishing instead lol and prs pansies can tell my walls and my freezer how amazing ffp/mil Hubble tank is for filling both. 200 rounds...lmfao. The latest f-class.
I had this go round on rokslide and a guy who dove right in admitted he was so wrapped up in it his walls and freezer were empty. Guess some of you need to figure out what’s more important. Trying to be some rockstar to other dudes in matches or just out there doing it without giving a flying fack if anyone knows about it. And this these threads in hunting optics sections going on and on about all this useless sh1t.
Lol...we will right this ship. People will wake up and we will find ourselves a new trend to turn into a big ole money factory. Prs is a dandy right now but we will come full circle and focus on what’s fastest simplest toughest and best for 0-600 yards HUNTING prep, including a competition lol. And it won’t have square targets and it won’t be 200 rounds and it won’t have guns over 10 lbs, save your ‘but but nrl’ arguments, same wrong with it, not enough right. 1/2 to 3/4 sec time of flights like 3d, where killin happens, animals with flappers, solo, custom and reload, and factory including ammo, a box of shells a day.
Like I said, drag this crap into the prs pansy touch willy sub forums where it belongs. I get to be rude like this here lol, it’s great. So many lost in the weeds, can’t see the forest. 😉
Man, talk about hurt feelings. Show us on the doll where the PRS shooters touched you after kicking your ass all over the course.....
Have the Form haters listened to the Shoot2hunt podcast #34? I think it provides context and clarification.
Not a hater but I made it about six minutes and that was all I could take.
Two + hours, not a chance.
The first minute was them giggling like middle school girls at a slumber party when absolutely nothing funny was said. I can't stomach that crap.
You mean the intro? Are you aware you can actually skip past the intro? Probably not, because you are stupid.
I will help your dumbazz out once more...Paul spoonfed Barnard. Go to one minute forty-one seconds. Form clearly states he does not get paid by Rokslide or nightforce and never has. Kinda contradicts the bs in the OP.
Have the Form haters listened to the Shoot2hunt podcast #34? I think it provides context and clarification.
Not a hater but I made it about six minutes and that was all I could take.
Two + hours, not a chance.
The first minute was them giggling like middle school girls at a slumber party when absolutely nothing funny was said. I can't stomach that crap.
You mean the intro? Are you aware you can actually skip past the intro? Probably not, because you are stupid.
I will help your dumbazz out once more...Paul spoonfed Barnard. Go to one minute forty-one seconds. Form clearly states he does not get paid by Rokslide or nightforce and never has. Kinda contradicts the bs in the OP.
But facts are irrelevant with the clueless
Not going to listen to the 2 hrs of torture, but who is footing the bill for the scopes, the rifles, and the [bleep]-ton of ammo he says he burns up?
I did listen long enough to hear him say something I agree with. That Nightforce does not make a reticle that is good for hunting.
Have the Form haters listened to the Shoot2hunt podcast #34? I think it provides context and clarification.
Not a hater but I made it about six minutes and that was all I could take.
Two + hours, not a chance.
The first minute was them giggling like middle school girls at a slumber party when absolutely nothing funny was said. I can't stomach that crap.
You mean the intro? Are you aware you can actually skip past the intro? Probably not, because you are stupid.
I will help your dumbazz out once more...Paul spoonfed Barnard. Go to one minute forty-one seconds. Form clearly states he does not get paid by Rokslide or nightforce and never has. Kinda contradicts the bs in the OP.
But facts are irrelevant with the clueless
Not going to listen to the 2 hrs of torture, but who is footing the bill for the scopes, the rifles, and the [bleep]-ton of ammo he says he burns up?
I did listen long enough to hear him say something I agree with. That Nightforce does not make a reticle that is good for hunting.
The answer to your question is literally covered in the podcast.
Have the Form haters listened to the Shoot2hunt podcast #34? I think it provides context and clarification.
Not a hater but I made it about six minutes and that was all I could take.
Two + hours, not a chance.
The first minute was them giggling like middle school girls at a slumber party when absolutely nothing funny was said. I can't stomach that crap.
You mean the intro? Are you aware you can actually skip past the intro? Probably not, because you are stupid.
I will help your dumbazz out once more...Paul spoonfed Barnard. Go to one minute forty-one seconds. Form clearly states he does not get paid by Rokslide or nightforce and never has. Kinda contradicts the bs in the OP.
But facts are irrelevant with the clueless
Not going to listen to the 2 hrs of torture, but who is footing the bill for the scopes, the rifles, and the [bleep]-ton of ammo he says he burns up?
I did listen long enough to hear him say something I agree with. That Nightforce does not make a reticle that is good for hunting.
The answer to your question is literally covered in the podcast.
Have the Form haters listened to the Shoot2hunt podcast #34? I think it provides context and clarification.
Not a hater but I made it about six minutes and that was all I could take.
Two + hours, not a chance.
The first minute was them giggling like middle school girls at a slumber party when absolutely nothing funny was said. I can't stomach that crap.
You mean the intro? Are you aware you can actually skip past the intro? Probably not, because you are stupid.
I will help your dumbazz out once more...Paul spoonfed Barnard. Go to one minute forty-one seconds. Form clearly states he does not get paid by Rokslide or nightforce and never has. Kinda contradicts the bs in the OP.
But facts are irrelevant with the clueless
Not going to listen to the 2 hrs of torture, but who is footing the bill for the scopes, the rifles, and the [bleep]-ton of ammo he says he burns up?
I did listen long enough to hear him say something I agree with. That Nightforce does not make a reticle that is good for hunting.
The answer to your question is literally covered in the podcast.
Have the Form haters listened to the Shoot2hunt podcast #34? I think it provides context and clarification.
Not a hater but I made it about six minutes and that was all I could take.
Two + hours, not a chance.
The first minute was them giggling like middle school girls at a slumber party when absolutely nothing funny was said. I can't stomach that crap.
You mean the intro? Are you aware you can actually skip past the intro? Probably not, because you are stupid.
I will help your dumbazz out once more...Paul spoonfed Barnard. Go to one minute forty-one seconds. Form clearly states he does not get paid by Rokslide or nightforce and never has. Kinda contradicts the bs in the OP.
But facts are irrelevant with the clueless
I listened to the first 1/4 or so at lunch and he says he’s not and has never been paid by any gun industry company. I didn’t hear him say he wasn’t paid by RS. Maybe he does later in the show.
Doesn’t make a hill of [bleep] to me. I tested the TMK after reading his recommendation and they’re awesome for my uses. He probably doesn’t like my scope choices and they may not pass his tests. But in my particular instances I beat the piss out of them banging around on the floorboard of the truck and knocking around out in the weeds and they hold zero close enough for my needs so I’ll continue to use them until they don’t or I want to try something else. I don’t shoot matches or game at ranges requiring me to dial, my standards might be higher if I did.
Nothing at all wrong with gleaning info from forums. Whether scopes, bullets, barrels, boots, food, whatever. In the end it’s up to you to test it and see if it works for YOU, under your required conditions and go from there.
Most guys across the hobby, here, RS, Bubba’s guns and free coffee shop, wherever. Would be much better served to shoot and hunt more and pontificate on minutia on the internet way less.
he says he’s not and has never been paid by any gun industry company. I didn’t hear him say he wasn’t paid by RS. Maybe he does later in the show.
Correct, as per your usual. At the 1:42 mark anyhow, Form says: “I’ve never made a single cent from any gun company or optics company, zero, period”.
Right before that, Form specifically called out not being paid by Shoot2Hunt nor Nightforce. There was never any confirmation one way or the other about Rokslide.
Just prior to all that at 1:08 when asked about his tests, he does specifically say: “for Rokslide, was last winter”, which indicates to me that he does get some sort of benefit from Rokslide for doing his tests.
The whole thing makes no difference to me either…I have never paid attention to his tests nor his results. I am too poor for a Nightforce anyhow. I am just passing along what he says in the beginning of the podcast.
Just prior to all that at 1:08 when asked about his tests, he does specifically say: “for Rokslide, was last winter”, which indicates to me that he does get some sort of benefit from Rokslide for doing his tests.
Just prior to all that at 1:08 when asked about his tests, he does specifically say: “for Rokslide, was last winter”, which indicates to me that he does get some sort of benefit from Rokslide for doing his tests.
That seems tenuous to me.
You very well could be right. 🤷♂️
Aside from (very) slight curiosity, I am unconcerned either way.
Just prior to all that at 1:08 when asked about his tests, he does specifically say: “for Rokslide, was last winter”, which indicates to me that he does get some sort of benefit from Rokslide for doing his tests.
That seems tenuous to me.
Even if true, I don’t know why that would matter. Rokslide is an Internet forum, not an optics company.
Form is a moderator there. I wouldn’t be surprised not offended if he was paid.
It’s pretty fhuqking easy to shoot on your own nickle and simply relate the findings. Hint…………
Not that I don't enjoy reading about all the justifications that routinely pop up for crowning gear without actually taking it out to use by oneself, but my thought since reading about all these tests years ago is if one is dubious of someone's reported issues with something and/or not sure who or how much to believe on the interwebs, just test your own gear to whatever level leaves you confident in it for your uses. Why let someone else have all the fun?
Certainly, I enjoy reading reports of others' successes and failures, and I'm always looking for data points that substantiate trends, but I tend to put more stock in my own experiences.
Just prior to all that at 1:08 when asked about his tests, he does specifically say: “for Rokslide, was last winter”, which indicates to me that he does get some sort of benefit from Rokslide for doing his tests.
That seems tenuous to me.
You very well could be right. 🤷♂️
Aside from (very) slight curiosity, I am unconcerned either way.
Same feelings.
And like BS mentioned, if you care enough about something, grab one and see if it suits ya. Although I do appreciate others experiences as well.
It’s pretty fhuqking easy to shoot on your own nickle and simply relate the findings. Hint…………
Not that I don't enjoy reading about all the justifications that routinely pop up for crowning gear without actually taking it out to use by oneself, but my thought since reading about all these tests years ago is if one is dubious of someone's reported issues with something and/or not sure who or how much to believe on the interwebs, just test your own gear to whatever level leaves you confident in it for your uses. Why let someone else have all the fun?
Certainly, I enjoy reading reports of others' successes and failures, and I'm always looking for data points that substantiate trends, but I tend to put more stock in my own experiences.
Scopes fhuqk a LOT of folks up,because the MOST important part of them,is the schit you can't see. Hint.
Rugged Reliability,is factored by guts and very fhuqking few test same,if only obviously. Hell...most are scared to fhuqking death of a "scratch",or anything resembling "weather". Hint.
Rather than make fhuqking excuses for Tender Wares,one should be scratching that schit OFF the fhuqking List. Hint.
Not that I don't enjoy reading about all the justifications that routinely pop up for crowning gear without actually taking it out to use by oneself, but my thought since reading about all these tests years ago is if one is dubious of someone's reported issues with something and/or not sure who or how much to believe on the interwebs, just test your own gear to whatever level leaves you confident in it for your uses. Why let someone else have all the fun?
Certainly, I enjoy reading reports of others' successes and failures, and I'm always looking for data points that substantiate trends, but I tend to put more stock in my own experiences.
Scopes fhuqk a LOT of folks up,because the MOST important part of them,is the schit you can't see. Hint.
Rugged Reliability,is factored by guts and very fhuqking few test same,if only obviously. Hell...most are scared to fhuqking death of a "scratch",or anything resembling "weather". Hint.
Rather than make fhuqking excuses for Tender Wares,one should be scratching that schit OFF the fhuqking List. Hint.
Just sayin'.............
You should post up some pictures of "weather" and success on game, skip fishies.
It'll be fun. But we all know those pictures will always have have Golden Rings.
I’m quoting as close as I can remember. Episode 34 as stated before It’s at 1:30 mark
Ryan Avery asks. Do I pay you, or does Nightforce pay you
The answer was: NO
Threads over.
If he said it, it must be true, right? I think he'd be smart to be demanding payment from the forums where he generates so much content and traffic. They're literally marketing their new Tikka stock as "Form approved." So even if Avery doesn't sign the checks for Form, I highly doubt they're not in some sort of business deal together. It's not a bad thing really.
Another explanation for why he totally dropped off the face of the earth here and went to Rokslide exclusively is that people are a lot more combative here... there he has a cult following - guys who sell all their rifles and scopes to get Formidilosus approved setups.
The fact is we have no idea who he is. Makes it really hard to gauge how seriously to take him. He presents himself as an expert on practically everything (I've even seen him give parenting advice) - but when you ask why you should believe him he and his supporters get really defensive about it.
At this point, the only reason I can think of to stay anonymous is that if people knew who he was it would hurt rather than enhance his credibility.
I think the podcast he goes on sometimes is pretty good. One of the better hunting and shooting podcasts. Covers a lot of basics that a lot of guys could benefit from learning.
So is Form going to be working for free at the shooting/hunting class that rokslide/shoot2hunt is charging $3k for and advertising him as the instructor?
Not that I have a problem with making money, good for him. Things probably just changed since the whole I don’t get paid by any one statement.
I also think a large percentage of the rokslide members are pretty young new to hunting types. Or least new to out west hunting as they like to say. The whole bragging about DIY public land hunt is one clue. They want a hero.
Jumping off ice cliffs to kill a rag horn and expecting us to believe it is another clue.
So is Form going to be working for free at the shooting/hunting class that rokslide/shoot2hunt is charging $3k for and advertising him as the instructor?
.
Only a novice or an uninformed moron would sign up
So is Form going to be working for free at the shooting/hunting class that rokslide/shoot2hunt is charging $3k for and advertising him as the instructor?
.
Only a novice or an uninformed moron would sign up
I’m sure the HandJob was first in line
🤣
Go show them how it's done, you could run the "how to play second fiddle to a fat drunk" portion of training lol
The thing I found interesting from Form was the data he had on scopes, mounting systems and rifles. Like failure rates, sample sizes etc. He said he managed a marksmanship training program for some type of DOD organization and everything was tracked there. So when he claimed scopes having seen tens of thousands of rounds, it was from the scopes being continuously used in training by trainees and mounted on multiple rifles over time.
I obviously have no idea if any of it is true but seems plausible and definitely interesting to read about.
For the flatbill Sitka wearing cuunts. The grandson loves when paw paw comes and kills bucks. Ruger 7 rsaum I dunno if it’s a vari x 1 or vx1, it do hammer shiit. ADG brass, 4350 and 120 bt’s,
For the flatbill Sitka wearing cuunts. The grandson loves when paw paw comes and kills bucks. Ruger 7 rsaum I dunno if it’s a vari x 1 or vx1, it do hammer shiit. ADG brass, 4350 and 120 bt’s,
Nice one!
Note to self:
Always have a 3 year old hold your deer to make it look huge
Geez, he’s 4. Don’t be too hard on me buddy, I don’t run flatbills, Sitka for kifaru packs🤦♂️
I’m an ass shootin shiity shot, don’t know what I’m talking about, can’t draw a limited tag, but I’m trying. You’ll notice the tall turrets, tape everywhere, “the grind is real”!!! lol
Within the same day, same shootin iron, main huntin patner for 30 years. He doesn’t know what model either, doesn’t wear Sitka, flatbills or run kifaru bitch packs. Copious amounts of tape and very tall turrets used here. Haha
Is formacunt get paid for pretending to hunt? He’s the real deal!!! Haha
While I think that there is some exaggeration in a lot of the accounts of the story, I really don't thing Formid is making up stories about his hunt.
The only things I know about Formid are what I can glean from his posts here on the 'fire. Most of his input is thoughtful and accurate. I think he's a quality dude.
My my my how time changes people's opinions lol
I guess at that point he hadn't discussed how leupolds don't retain zero.
From a sensible hunter? Or prs pansy? You sure you’re getting the appropriate perspective for subject at hand?
We get it. You got embarrassed at the local outlaw match, so now you have an axe to grind with competitive shooters. It's gonna be just fine.
Lol, me at a match?
Hunt only, I like gear, and trialling, in field, my own gongs, my own 3d targets...then hunting, or fishing. Not playing touch willy at some match doing a bunch of the wrong kind of practice. But hey, if you’re bored and shoot is what your hobby is then giver. Hunt is mine. They still don’t make a match proper for hunting. 3d archery is close but where is that for the bang sticks? 200 rounds, sighters, little square plates (great on target reference...not), sighters, teams, much of it past real hunting distances, requiring unrealistic gear and methods. Don’t worry, even if they did get it right I’d still be hunting or fishing instead lol and prs pansies can tell my walls and my freezer how amazing ffp/mil Hubble tank is for filling both. 200 rounds...lmfao. The latest f-class.
I had this go round on rokslide and a guy who dove right in admitted he was so wrapped up in it his walls and freezer were empty. Guess some of you need to figure out what’s more important. Trying to be some rockstar to other dudes in matches or just out there doing it without giving a flying fack if anyone knows about it. And this these threads in hunting optics sections going on and on about all this useless sh1t.
Lol...we will right this ship. People will wake up and we will find ourselves a new trend to turn into a big ole money factory. Prs is a dandy right now but we will come full circle and focus on what’s fastest simplest toughest and best for 0-600 yards HUNTING prep, including a competition lol. And it won’t have square targets and it won’t be 200 rounds and it won’t have guns over 10 lbs, save your ‘but but nrl’ arguments, same wrong with it, not enough right. 1/2 to 3/4 sec time of flights like 3d, where killin happens, animals with flappers, solo, custom and reload, and factory including ammo, a box of shells a day.
Like I said, drag this crap into the prs pansy touch willy sub forums where it belongs. I get to be rude like this here lol, it’s great. So many lost in the weeds, can’t see the forest. 😉
If you scared, say you scared. Plenty of folks do both.
If this mounting job comes from the self-proclaimed “wwweerrllld claaaawwwsss” optics expert, it should make your spidey senses go off. If it does not, you have much to learn.
Nope, but your wife rolled over on it once. That was certainly worse than any horse could do.
Do you believe Form has been paid by Nightforce or any other optic companies?
Do you believe Form is 100% honest and without bias and follows a scientific method?
I believe he does his test to the best of his ability, and reports his findings. It's just data. Take it for what it's worth....which is free.
That's the funny part, nobody makes you read them.
I answered your question, but you don't have the balls to answer mine.
Call him out. Show up and prove he's full of s hit.
I can't answer a question which I have no information on. Neither you, nor I, knows if he's paid. I do, however, know he has a [bleep] "testing" methodology and plenty bias.
Poor stick mounts a scope wrong, and he just can't help it. He thinks people cares about his opinion and believes people are jealous of him. He definitely protects his little ego best he can.
Newsflash, showing pictures of a rifle doesn't somehow make you an expert or lend you credibility.
Nope, but your wife rolled over on it once. That was certainly worse than any horse could do.
Do you believe Form has been paid by Nightforce or any other optic companies?
Do you believe Form is 100% honest and without bias and follows a scientific method?
I believe he does his test to the best of his ability, and reports his findings. It's just data. Take it for what it's worth....which is free.
That's the funny part, nobody makes you read them.
I answered your question, but you don't have the balls to answer mine.
Call him out. Show up and prove he's full of s hit.
I can't answer a question which I have no information on. Neither you, nor I, knows if he's paid. I do, however, know he has a [bleep] "testing" methodology and plenty bias.
Go prove he's wrong then. Or just stop being a beta b itch and crying about it.
P.s. your answer is "I don't know" or "i have no proof".
Nope, but your wife rolled over on it once. That was certainly worse than any horse could do.
Do you believe Form has been paid by Nightforce or any other optic companies?
Do you believe Form is 100% honest and without bias and follows a scientific method?
I believe he does his test to the best of his ability, and reports his findings. It's just data. Take it for what it's worth....which is free.
That's the funny part, nobody makes you read them.
I answered your question, but you don't have the balls to answer mine.
Call him out. Show up and prove he's full of s hit.
I can't answer a question which I have no information on. Neither you, nor I, knows if he's paid. I do, however, know he has a [bleep] "testing" methodology and plenty bias.
Go prove he's wrong then. Or just stop being a beta b itch and crying about it.
P.s. your answer is "I don't know" or "i have no proof".
Meanwhile, you are taking him at his word, when you know he has a history of…not telling the truth. Go give him another handy.
Nope, but your wife rolled over on it once. That was certainly worse than any horse could do.
Do you believe Form has been paid by Nightforce or any other optic companies?
Do you believe Form is 100% honest and without bias and follows a scientific method?
I believe he does his test to the best of his ability, and reports his findings. It's just data. Take it for what it's worth....which is free.
That's the funny part, nobody makes you read them.
I answered your question, but you don't have the balls to answer mine.
Call him out. Show up and prove he's full of s hit.
I can't answer a question which I have no information on. Neither you, nor I, knows if he's paid. I do, however, know he has a [bleep] "testing" methodology and plenty bias.
Go prove he's wrong then. Or just stop being a beta b itch and crying about it.
P.s. your answer is "I don't know" or "i have no proof".
Meanwhile, you are taking him at his word, when you know he has a history of…not telling the truth. Go give him another handy.
Boo-f ucking-hoo lol
Crying about s hit nobody is forcing you to read lol
Again, GFY. Maybe if you had spent half the time parenting that you spent trying to impress people here you could spend time with your son and you'd still have a wife.
But you can't, because you're a POS parent, husband, and an overall loser at life.
Crying about s hit nobody is forcing you to read lol
You did that the whole thread, genius.
All I'm asking for is evidence to prove the claims in the op.
You came into the thread dragging yer puzzy crying about s hit nobody is making you read and blathering on about competitions, which have nothing to do with the OP.
Crying about s hit nobody is forcing you to read lol
You did that the whole thread, genius.
All I'm asking for is evidence to prove the claims in the op.
You came into the thread dragging yer puzzy crying about s hit nobody is making you read and blathering on about competitions, which have nothing to do with the OP.
Now go back to clutching your pearls and weeping.
Your pussy hurts. Its ok. You don't like what is being said, you're free to leave.
Crying about s hit nobody is forcing you to read lol
You did that the whole thread, genius.
All I'm asking for is evidence to prove the claims in the op.
You came into the thread dragging yer puzzy crying about s hit nobody is making you read and blathering on about competitions, which have nothing to do with the OP.
Now go back to clutching your pearls and weeping.
Your pussy hurts. Its ok. You don't like what is being said, you're free to leave.
Good lord, you can't even talk s hit worth a dam.
Throw some sugar on yer prolapsed azzole, crybaby b itch. An old veterinarian trick should work for you...
New so not sure what the history of all this is however in what world would a guy on line saying something you know is wrong, hurt enough to make you post while enjoying a day with your son. This forum is gun guys hating on each other over what guns/scope is the best while letting democrats post and not even challenging them. On this thread alone there are two if not three guys that should be considered the enemy. That said the stick guy has a missing piece that he will never find and you can't fix, just let it go.
Crying about s hit nobody is forcing you to read lol
You did that the whole thread, genius.
All I'm asking for is evidence to prove the claims in the op.
You came into the thread dragging yer puzzy crying about s hit nobody is making you read and blathering on about competitions, which have nothing to do with the OP.
Now go back to clutching your pearls and weeping.
Your pussy hurts. Its ok. You don't like what is being said, you're free to leave.
Good lord, you can't even talk s hit worth a dam.
Throw some sugar on yer prolapsed azzole, crybaby b itch. An old veterinarian trick should work for you...
This forum is gun guys hating on each other over what guns/scope is the best while letting democrats post and not even challenging them. On this thread alone there are two if not three guys that should be considered the enemy. That said the stick guy has a missing piece that he will never find and you can't fix, just let it go.
This forum is gun guys hating on each other over what guns/scope is the best while letting democrats post and not even challenging them. On this thread alone there are two if not three guys that should be considered the enemy. That said the stick guy has a missing piece that he will never find and you can't fix, just let it go.
Rent free my biitch, you musta been dreaming about me once again. Hopefully I’m the last thing you think about when you finally send a bullet through your jealous envy fueled brain.
Nows where you swing for the fence, talk about early retirement and how you wasted it drinking daily and bitching on the www. Congratulations?
Rent free my biitch, you musta been dreaming about me once again. Hopefully I’m the last thing you think about when you finally send a bullet through your jealous envy fueled brain.
Nows where you swing for the fence, talk about early retirement and how you wasted it drinking daily and bitching on the www. Congratulations?
It was a simple question Justin... why so angry and triggered? maybe anger management would help you?
My biitch, I’m not angry nor triggered. I thought we had a deal couple weeks ago, but you can’t help yourself. Why don’t ya go look for sheds, throw some trail cams up, go wolf huntin? The more ya learn the country the better your chances will be killin next year. Hint
FYI, I’m an independent, never was good at being led around by a group being told what to do, how to vote, or what to think/believe. Being able to think for yourself is really scary!! Almost as scary as going to Mexico hunting or fishing!!😘
My biitch, I’m not angry nor triggered. I thought we had a deal couple weeks ago, but you can’t help yourself. Why don’t ya go look for sheds, throw some trail cams up, go wolf huntin? The more ya learn the country the better your chances will be killin next year. Hint
FYI, I’m an independent, never was good at being led around by a group being told what to do, how to vote, or what to think/believe. Being able to think for yourself is really scary!! Almost as scary as going to Mexico hunting or fishing!!😘
I understand you want me to quit calling out your dumbfuckery.... but that would be like telling a wolf to quit eating the elk....
Oh gotcha👍 if what I do is “dumbfuckery “, I’ll take another helping.
Ever notice you’re in most controversial threads? Because you’re a miserable prick of misery. When you sober up check out your posts. Put the bottle down, get off the www and go do some scoutin, maybe you’d wouldn’t suck so bad at your hobbies.
Oh gotcha👍 if what I do is “dumbfuckery “, I’ll take another helping.
Ever notice you’re in most controversial threads? Because you’re a miserable prick of misery. When you sober up check out your posts. Put the bottle down, get off the www and go do some scoutin, maybe you’d wouldn’t suck so bad at your hobbies.
I guess you completely forgot about all the years you spent busting Sticks ball's ?
Yes, 80% of my posts were fuuckin with your boy stick, that’s not yapping, at every fuucking controversial post in the main forum talking shiit and acting like I’m better than folks that don’t see eye to eye with me.
I’ve already got a couple good Blacktail bucks spotted, “carrying bone later than usual”, deposit send in on Mexico coues, “ which btw is unfuckingbelivable”, tying up/ordering riggin for springers. It’s amazing what $25,000 will net ya!!😘
Again if you don’t wanna suck at your hobbies, scout, prepare, get the fuuck off the www, put the bottle down and get after it!! Vari x 1 or vx1 for the win, still don’t know which it is, but it do shwaack shiit!!👊🏻
seems we are close to tied.... maybe you should step away from the computer also... now consider I have been retired since 2011 and you have been working full time, so that tells me you have spent all your spare time posting.... me, I have all day and night to post..... hahahahahhahaha suck it libtard
Look at bitching/whinning vs fuuckin with stick posts my bitch Brian.
Perhaps you could hang some doe pics of you and Defag with some does and sunglasses on? No wonder why dummy’s can’t kill shiit!! 😆
You wonder why you don’t have any huntin buds, naw, your way to lazy, you’d rather text, pm on the www and biiitch and moan. Seems to be a connection between you beaverbitch, and Defag. I’m starting to think you have daddy issues. Was she ever in your life? Is that why you suck at “manly” hobbies? I got to take mine to your home state, he killed his best muley on day 1, at 74 he had a great time. And yes crying Karen, he had a tag..😘
It's hardly a "Secret",that I consume sooooooo many lives. Hint.
I'm fhuqking LAUGHING at "The Political Powers" bestowed. Hint.
I poke 20% in my 401K in January,hit the ceiling well before Summer,the Company tosses 7% per annum and my pay checks get bigger. Company investments are fhuqking obscene and splendors are a NICE "problem" to have(over 100K last year). Hint.
Keep thinking about me ladies,as you fall short. Hint.
It's hardly a "Secret",that I consume sooooooo many lives. Hint.
I'm fhuqking LAUGHING at "The Political Powers" bestowed. Hint.
I poke 20% in my 401K in January,hit the ceiling well before Summer,the Company tosses 7% per annum and my pay checks get bigger. Company investments are fhuqking obscene and splendors are a NICE "problem" to have(over 100K last year). Hint.
Keep thinking about me ladies,as you fall short. Hint.
It's hardly a "Secret",that I consume sooooooo many lives. Hint.
I'm fhuqking LAUGHING at "The Political Powers" bestowed. Hint.
I poke 20% in my 401K in January,hit the ceiling well before Summer,the Company tosses 7% per annum and my pay checks get bigger. Company investments are fhuqking obscene and splendors are a NICE "problem" to have(over 100K last year). Hint.
Keep thinking about me ladies,as you fall short. Hint.
Fhuqking LAUGHING!.................
Oh and Mr. Stick , one more question if I may.... can you spend this 401k money or do you need the government's blessing? 100k is alotta cashola....
Stupid/dumb is; telling someone how many deer they’ve poached the first time they met a guy that brought them a free box of 142 nosler bullets
Dumb is running your yap at the ADNA grocery store about sneaking in private property to kill a cow with a musket
Dumb, and stupider than [bleep] is taking out a 2nd mortgage to hunt Cape buffalo, which you didn’t do
Dumb is not going to the father in law’s place in Kona free of charge at least 2x a year.
Dumb is being a government worker and bitching about democrats.
Got it Fred?
Sounds like a dumb bunch of things to do. Wish for a Hawaii vacation for years. But 115 in the summer is good enough for me. Clearly you are one of the liberals here. Enjoy being a dipshit.
It's hardly a "Secret",that I consume sooooooo many lives. Hint.
I'm fhuqking LAUGHING at "The Political Powers" bestowed. Hint.
I poke 20% in my 401K in January,hit the ceiling well before Summer,the Company tosses 7% per annum and my pay checks get bigger. Company investments are fhuqking obscene and splendors are a NICE "problem" to have(over 100K last year). Hint.
Keep thinking about me ladies,as you fall short. Hint.
Fhuqking LAUGHING!.................
That is a great match my employer only puts half of 3%.
I find it interesting,that a Lying Piece Of Fhuqking Schit is same. Hint.
The Company typically gives 50,75 and 100K bonuses to all 3300+ folks. Hint.
Last year was nice and wellllllllll over 100K. Hint...............
I hear it's very expensive to live in Alaska
Ircunt, now is when you post a pic of your house, and tell everyone what you don’t do, and everyone that is more successful than is a poacher😂
Justin, The sooner you realize nobody can make you appear an azz but you, the better off you will be. Seems obvious to me as the evening goes on and deeper you get into the bottle or bong the more unhinged you become. But you keep on being you for everyone to see.... I will enjoy the show, just like last time.... Emotional meltdown in 3,2,1, hahahahhahahahahahahahahahhahahaha
Stupid/dumb is; telling someone how many deer they’ve poached the first time they met a guy that brought them a free box of 142 nosler bullets
Dumb is running your yap at the ADNA grocery store about sneaking in private property to kill a cow with a musket
Dumb, and stupider than [bleep] is taking out a 2nd mortgage to hunt Cape buffalo, which you didn’t do
Dumb is not going to the father in law’s place in Kona free of charge at least 2x a year.
Dumb is being a government worker and bitching about democrats.
Got it Fred?
Sounds like a dumb bunch of things to do. Wish for a Hawaii vacation for years. But 115 in the summer is good enough for me. Clearly you are one of the liberals here. Enjoy being a dipshit.
Tend to your kids, time well spent. 👊🏻
Girls shouldn’t wrestle, but your boy should. Hint
My bitch, Brian Russel, I had more fun/killin the first 18 years of my life, than you at 60, I’m sorry.
I had a great Ol man. Tell the www about yours. Was he a child molester? Was he a woman abusing sonafabitch? Did he make you suck your thumb and beg for momma? Enjoy your worthless retirement fishing for pike!!! Haha
justin, You have never met me, you don't know anyone who has ever met me. You know me by what I post here , same as everyone else. The demented narrative you are attempting to paint of me is based on nothing but your imagination. And that ain't pretty, you are a dark soul. And you are putting that on display for everyone to see....
justin, You have never met me, you don't know anyone who has ever met me. You know me by what I post here , same as everyone else. The demented narrative you are attempting to paint of me is based on nothing but your imagination. And that ain't pretty, you are a dark soul. And you are putting that on display for everyone to see....
My biitch Brian, pay your taxes. Are you sure you’ve never smudged a bit? Like, oh this is a write off and such. Don’t lie now.😂
My bitch Brian, tell the www about your dad. I’m sure she was a great girl, to raise a whinning cuunt like you, she was a bad bitch!!!
Now snitch to the warden, um Justin kills way bigger bucks than me….
Ummm sorry bitch boy Brian, Justin pays big $$$ anually to come hunt here. You’re such a jealous worthless biitch.😂 it’s actually funny!! Haha
Take your dumb offshore boat and go kill another 8” goat you stupid fuuck!!😆
You go girl.... hahahahahahhahahahahahahaha
Tell the www about your dad, while you lie about scopes and formy. You and your crew thought that stupid fuucker was the “real deal “, remember??
I can tell you and the other faags here, I grew up with he who’s who, you won’t find them posting or looking here. Hint
Maybe you can show us a Blacktail or Roosevelt elk since you spent years in Oregon, but now as a transplant in one of montanas only democrat counties, you must hate life. Hahs
My bitch, Brian Russel, I had more fun/killin the first 18 years of my life, than you at 60, I’m sorry.
I had a great Ol man. Tell the www about yours. Was he a child molester? Was he a woman abusing sonafabitch? Did he make you suck your thumb and beg for momma? Enjoy your worthless retirement fishing for pike!!! Haha
My bitch Brian, tell the www about your dad. I’m sure she was a great girl, to raise a whinning cuunt like you, she was a bad bitch!!!
Now snitch to the warden, um Justin kills way bigger bucks than me….
Ummm sorry bitch boy Brian, Justin pays big $$$ anually to come hunt here. You’re such a jealous worthless biitch.😂 it’s actually funny!! Haha
Take your dumb offshore boat and go kill another 8” goat you stupid fuuck!!😆
You go girl.... hahahahahahhahahahahahahaha
Tell the www about your dad, while you lie about scopes and formy. You and your crew thought that stupid fuucker was the “real deal “, remember??
I can tell you and the other faags here, I grew up with he who’s who, you won’t find them posting or looking here. Hint
Maybe you can show us a Blacktail or Roosevelt elk since you spent years in Oregon, but now as a transplant in one of montanas only democrat counties, you must hate life. Hahs
Guys , don't be to hard on Justin, he is having an episode again..... hahahahahhahahahaha
Who’s “guys” you speak of? Your crew sung their swan song, the gossip ship has sailed. Your crew/sourses are cuunts, you cut em long ago. They ducked a mean ass, but that’s what I love Ike about me, I don’t need “online buddies”. Obviously 😂
Justin, Maybe it's time to step away, take a break from the fire... you obviously are having a breakdown.... you can thank me later, or maybe your wife can thank me.... bet it's not pretty at the judman household about now
Guys , don't be to hard on Justin, he is having an episode again..... hahahahahhahahahaha
Who’s “guys” you speak of? Your crew sung their swan song, the gossip ship has sailed. Your crew/sourses are cuunts, you cut em long ago. They ducked a mean ass, but that’s what I love Ike about me, I don’t need “online buddies”. Obviously 😂
Well Justin, as enlightening as this latest meltdown was , time for me to call it an evening..... maybe you should go pass out and please don't take it out on your wife!
Well Justin, as enlightening as this latest meltdown was , time for me to call it an evening..... maybe you should go pass out and please don't take it out on your wife!
I’ll take it out on your wife, a you’ve never satisfied her, old red faced gin drinkin cuunt couldn’t get hard.
It's hardly a "Secret",that I consume sooooooo many lives. Hint.
I'm fhuqking LAUGHING at "The Political Powers" bestowed. Hint.
I poke 20% in my 401K in January,hit the ceiling well before Summer,the Company tosses 7% per annum and my pay checks get bigger. Company investments are fhuqking obscene and splendors are a NICE "problem" to have(over 100K last year). Hint.
Keep thinking about me ladies,as you fall short. Hint.
I find it interesting,that a Lying Piece Of Fhuqking Schit is same. Hint.
The Company typically gives 50,75 and 100K bonuses to all 3300+ folks. Hint.
Last year was nice and wellllllllll over 100K. Hint...............
Can you buy your son back?
That’s a really low blow.
The thing is, Stick is gonna Stick, if you know what I mean. It’s pretty easy to avoid, so I don’t feel bad for anyone who elects to get their feelers hurt over getting a good laugh out of his posts. It’d be pretty boring around the fire if we didn’t have all of the personalities, including Stick. And he’s got good info too if you can decipher what he’s saying.
I have asked Stick five or six direct question and every thing he has recommended has worked perfectly.
This is a forum, that’s it. Some of you need a breathalyzer attached to your keyboards. The words don’t disappear into the wind, they are here for quite some time for others to read.
I have asked Stick five or six direct question and every thing he has recommended has worked perfectly.
This is a forum, that’s it. Some of you need a breathalyzer attached to your keyboards. The words don’t disappear into the wind, they are here for quite some time for others to read.
Judman is known for epic meltdowns... some of the campfires best actually... your point is well taken and Judmans family and friends can read this , I would be embarrassed for him, but considering he is a leftist from a communist state he can drown in his own schit for all I care! What you saw displayed in his post in classic "projecting" leftist are master of it. Once you realize what it is and recognize it, it gives you a window into a twisted mind, a sick mind, a leftist mind.....
As for Stick, his ebonics do suck and his ego is oversized but at least he is interesting.... ok not really...
This is a forum, that’s it. Some of you need a breathalyzer attached to your keyboards.
Lol. This place would collapse if guys couldn’t post drunk.
That's pretty sad. Probably true, but sad and pathetic.
You asked if someone could “buy” their deceased child back, post pics of your neighbors nicer home and claim it’s yours, start 2000 “stick hurt my feelings” threads, brag about how much money you have in your 401k and that your homes are paid off to total strangers, but this is what you find sad and pathetic? JFC…..
You asked if someone could “buy” their deceased child back, post pics of your neighbors nicer home and claim it’s yours, start 2000 “stick hurt my feelings” threads, brag about how much money you have in your 401k and that your homes are paid off to total strangers, but this is what you find sad and pathetic? JFC…..
And every time, you come running to open your cock holster. Every. Time.
Take your selective outrage and GFY.
Edit: I'll bet you can't quote me saying my neighbor's place is mine, or me saying how much I have in a 401k.
If you can, I'll donate a rifle to someone's kid from this site. If you can't, you STFU and MYOB. You on?
You asked if someone could “buy” their deceased child back, post pics of your neighbors nicer home and claim it’s yours, start 2000 “stick hurt my feelings” threads, brag about how much money you have in your 401k and that your homes are paid off to total strangers, but this is what you find sad and pathetic? JFC…..
And every time, you come running to open your cock holster. Every. Time.
Take your selective outrage and GFY.
This warms my heart since I can't stand either one of you braggadocious ass holes.. At least jackwagon is likely intoxicated most of the time when he gets on a roll since the inbred, cross eyed, cousin fuggin hillbilly ass hole is a habitual drunkard.
This thread is truly a microcosm of this entire forum. Tangents to the nth degree. Apples to oranges. Rational discussions. Profanity and aggression to prove one is correct. Typical assertions and accusations of self flagellation and having girly parts. Heck it even has some reasoned and logical responses included which appeared to be backed by knowledge and learning. Look at this stupid post I just made. It has absolutely nothing to do with either the thread topic or the sub-topics contained herein.
I have asked Stick five or six direct question and every thing he has recommended has worked perfectly.
This is a forum, that’s it. Some of you need a breathalyzer attached to your keyboards. The words don’t disappear into the wind, they are here for quite some time for others to read.
Judman is known for epic meltdowns... some of the campfires best actually... your point is well taken and Judmans family and friends can read this , I would be embarrassed for him, but considering he is a leftist from a communist state he can drown in his own schit for all I care! What you saw displayed in his post in classic "projecting" leftist are master of it. Once you realize what it is and recognize it, it gives you a window into a twisted mind, a sick mind, a leftist mind.....
As for Stick, his ebonics do suck and his ego is oversized but at least he is interesting.... ok not really...
How many swan songs you gonna sing me? Again no meltdown, just showing the what an absolute emotional wreck you are. Drink up gin liver, Super Bowl Sunday, you’ve got an excuse to start lying and runnin your yap . 😘
Nope, just the “real life” gene, lotsa miserable jealous lying fuucks out there, just like yourself.
This must be “ the epic meltdown “ you keep accusing me of? Haha
Shut your trap, keep my name outta your mouth and move on my biitch Brian, that simple. Plenty of controversy in the main forum you can interject yourself into. Just a thought, and you know what that’s worth
Nope, just the “real life” gene, lotsa miserable jealous lying fuucks out there, just like yourself.
This must be “ the epic meltdown “ you keep accusing me of? Haha
Shut your trap, keep my name outta your mouth and move on my biitch Brian, that simple. Plenty of controversy in the main forum you can interject yourself into. Just a thought, and you know what that’s worth
Hey it's your reputation to ruin... I simply lob a slow ball over the plate and you hit the home run....
Nope, just the “real life” gene, lotsa miserable jealous lying fuucks out there, just like yourself.
This must be “ the epic meltdown “ you keep accusing me of? Haha
Shut your trap, keep my name outta your mouth and move on my biitch Brian, that simple. Plenty of controversy in the main forum you can interject yourself into. Just a thought, and you know what that’s worth
Hey it's your reputation to ruin... I simply lob a slow ball over the plate and you hit the home run....
Have another swig and a deer steak from the 2 year old buck you shot and just call it a day.
Nope, just the “real life” gene, lotsa miserable jealous lying fuucks out there, just like yourself.
This must be “ the epic meltdown “ you keep accusing me of? Haha
Shut your trap, keep my name outta your mouth and move on my biitch Brian, that simple. Plenty of controversy in the main forum you can interject yourself into. Just a thought, and you know what that’s worth
Hey it's your reputation to ruin... I simply lob a slow ball over the plate and you hit the home run....
That’s all you’re worried about? Shallow fuuck, online lookin for “friends”. What a miserable old drunk you are. You don’t “lob” shiit, you stalk people, talk shiit, lie, gossip and rumor monger. Great early retirement you got goin here. 👊🏻😘
This warms my heart since I can't stand either one of you braggadocious ass holes.. At least jackwagon is likely intoxicated most of the time when he gets on a roll since the inbred, cross eyed, cousin fuggin hillbilly ass hole is a habitual drunkard.
This got rather pathetic. Not a good look for those involved, and really reflects poorly on the 24hcf site.
I must say I agree. I also take responsibility for my post. Thing is the campfire has a long history of self regulating so to speak. Bullshitters , liars and fakes are called out and exposed on a regular basis. This seems unique to the campfire as we are allowed free speech. Free speech includes uncomfortable speech and truths.... Some do their best to crush free speech, intimidate, lie, belittle and generally really poor behavior.... this thread illustrates all of that . We can't and shouldn't control what others say. We certainly can control what we say, well some of us anyway... I myself have participated in my share of poo flinging here. I try not too, but at times it's difficult in the face of such lies and disgusting accusations. If anyone thinks I am out of line exercise your free speech rights and let me know and I will consider your position. No guarantee I will accept it. For example Judman has displayed his opinions are basically garbage.
This got rather pathetic. Not a good look for those involved, and really reflects poorly on the 24hcf site.
I must say I agree. I also take responsibility for my post. Thing is the campfire has a long history of self regulating so to speak. Bullshitters , liars and fakes are called out and exposed on a regular basis. This seems unique to the campfire as we are allowed free speech. Free speech includes uncomfortable speech and truths.... Some do their best to crush free speech, intimidate, lie, belittle and generally really poor behavior.... this thread illustrates all of that . We can't and shouldn't control what others say. We certainly can control what we say, well some of us anyway... I myself have participated in my share of poo flinging here. I try not too, but at times it's difficult in the face of such lies and disgusting accusations. If anyone thinks I am out of line exercise your free speech rights and let me know and I will consider your position. No guarantee I will accept it. For example Judman has displayed his opinions are basically garbage.
There probably isn’t too many people that care what think, are probably fewer that care if you “accept it”. God damn you really think you’re something don’t ya? Tuck your boo boo lip in, realize you’re nothing special and move on Karen.
I must say I agree. I also take responsibility for my post. Thing is the campfire has a long history of self regulating so to speak. Bullshitters , liars and fakes are called out and exposed on a regular basis. This seems unique to the campfire as we are allowed free speech. Free speech includes uncomfortable speech and truths.... Some do their best to crush free speech, intimidate, lie, belittle and generally really poor behavior.... this thread illustrates all of that . We can't and shouldn't control what others say. We certainly can control what we say, well some of us anyway... I myself have participated in my share of poo flinging here. I try not too, but at times it's difficult in the face of such lies and disgusting accusations. If anyone thinks I am out of line exercise your free speech rights and let me know and I will consider your position. No guarantee I will accept it. For example Judman has displayed his opinions are basically garbage.
I must say I agree. I also take responsibility for my post. Thing is the campfire has a long history of self regulating so to speak. Bullshitters , liars and fakes are called out and exposed on a regular basis. This seems unique to the campfire as we are allowed free speech. Free speech includes uncomfortable speech and truths.... Some do their best to crush free speech, intimidate, lie, belittle and generally really poor behavior.... this thread illustrates all of that . We can't and shouldn't control what others say. We certainly can control what we say, well some of us anyway... I myself have participated in my share of poo flinging here. I try not too, but at times it's difficult in the face of such lies and disgusting accusations. If anyone thinks I am out of line exercise your free speech rights and let me know and I will consider your position. No guarantee I will accept it. For example Judman has displayed his opinions are basically garbage.
His last meltdown exposed his TDS and was found so unfavorable he had to go into time out for many months...
To Juds credit he did learn to avoid that trap this go around... he did step in every other trap though....
He thought the coast was clear with Beav and Flave gone and he could pop his commie head up, but the game of whacka mole continues... lol
Good lord you are a dense sonafabitch. That musta been a hard decision for you, what side to pick? Anyway, typical chickenshit do nothing boomer, where’s my buddies when I need them. Have a drink Ol red face. The clock’s ticking
More in the middle, not left or right. Remember I explained thst to you yesterday. Didja forget during your gin fueled rage last night. The sheep thst get told how to vote, what to believe etc hate folks that think for themselves.
Stupid/dumb is; telling someone how many deer they’ve poached the first time they met a guy that brought them a free box of 142 nosler bullets
Dumb is running your yap at the ADNA grocery store about sneaking in private property to kill a cow with a musket
Dumb, and stupider than [bleep] is taking out a 2nd mortgage to hunt Cape buffalo, which you didn’t do
Dumb is not going to the father in law’s place in Kona free of charge at least 2x a year.
Dumb is being a government worker and bitching about democrats.
Got it Fred?
Sounds like a dumb bunch of things to do. Wish for a Hawaii vacation for years. But 115 in the summer is good enough for me. Clearly you are one of the liberals here. Enjoy being a dipshit.
Tend to your kids, time well spent. 👊🏻
Girls shouldn’t wrestle, but your boy should. Hint
Be odd for a grown adult to take up wrestling but I'll be sure to let her know.
24hourcampfire is the unmoderated dumping grounds of the gun forums. Most places don't have three or four anti gun democrats drunk making wild accusations on a regular basis trashing up the topics. This place has that on most threads that go over 10 posts. If calling attention to them wasn't so easy and necessary I'd just read the paper for fun.
It wasn't long ago doxing was considered a major taboo around here.... yet Judman does it over and over and everyone is silent? He even PM'd Buzz my info and Buzz did a deep dive and found out everything about me... looking for dirt i guess?
It wasn't long ago doxing was considered a major taboo around here.... yet Judman does it over and over and everyone is silent? He even PM'd Buzz my info and Buzz did a deep dive and found out everything about me... looking for dirt i guess?
It wasn't long ago doxing was considered a major taboo around here.... yet Judman does it over and over and everyone is silent? He even PM'd Buzz my info and Buzz did a deep dive and found out everything about me... looking for dirt i guess?
Are you stomping around the house with a quivering lip right now. Full on hissy fit, I love it!! Haha
It wasn't long ago doxing was considered a major taboo around here.... yet Judman does it over and over and everyone is silent? He even PM'd Buzz my info and Buzz did a deep dive and found out everything about me... looking for dirt i guess?
Buzz and Judman.... a match made in heaven... hell they are both so desperate for "pards" Just so everyone is aware, Buzz's boy, John Tester voted for the latest border bill..... hahahhahahahahahhahahahah
Bet Judman voted for a Democrat in his state that is doing just that on a state level . You know the Washington state reps will vote for that on a national level in a heartbeat
I have asked Stick five or six direct question and every thing he has recommended has worked perfectly.
This is a forum, that’s it. Some of you need a breathalyzer attached to your keyboards. The words don’t disappear into the wind, they are here for quite some time for others to read.
Judman is known for epic meltdowns... some of the campfires best actually... your point is well taken and Judmans family and friends can read this , I would be embarrassed for him, but considering he is a leftist from a communist state he can drown in his own schit for all I care! What you saw displayed in his post in classic "projecting" leftist are master of it. Once you realize what it is and recognize it, it gives you a window into a twisted mind, a sick mind, a leftist mind.....
As for Stick, his ebonics do suck and his ego is oversized but at least he is interesting.... ok not really...
Who was the poster that told us judman was a bad as$ because he beat up juveniles in prison?
I have asked Stick five or six direct question and every thing he has recommended has worked perfectly.
This is a forum, that’s it. Some of you need a breathalyzer attached to your keyboards. The words don’t disappear into the wind, they are here for quite some time for others to read.
Judman is known for epic meltdowns... some of the campfires best actually... your point is well taken and Judmans family and friends can read this , I would be embarrassed for him, but considering he is a leftist from a communist state he can drown in his own schit for all I care! What you saw displayed in his post in classic "projecting" leftist are master of it. Once you realize what it is and recognize it, it gives you a window into a twisted mind, a sick mind, a leftist mind.....
As for Stick, his ebonics do suck and his ego is oversized but at least he is interesting.... ok not really...
Who was the poster that told us judman was a bad as$ because he beat up juveniles in prison?
I doubt that is true, Judman seems like such a nice , level headed well rounded person..... I will pretend his threats of violence towards me didn't happen..... hahahahhahahahahah
Kudos to the gals who don't shoot,reinforcing why they don't shoot and why it hurts their TENDER Feelers when folks do,so they can bombard with Very WELL Founded Hurt Feeler Reports and minimize conjencture of same...the "lucky" kchunts. Hint. Congratulations?!?
Professional Victims are fhuqking HILARIOUS!. Hint.
You asked if someone could “buy” their deceased child back, post pics of your neighbors nicer home and claim it’s yours, start 2000 “stick hurt my feelings” threads, brag about how much money you have in your 401k and that your homes are paid off to total strangers, but this is what you find sad and pathetic? JFC…..
And every time, you come running to open your cock holster. Every. Time.
Take your selective outrage and GFY.
Edit: I'll bet you can't quote me saying my neighbor's place is mine, or me saying how much I have in a 401k.
If you can, I'll donate a rifle to someone's kid from this site. If you can't, you STFU and MYOB. You on?
So either you did say it, or you’ll argue that you never came out and said it directly which makes you an even bigger POS for implying it leading everyone on. You know, like you did posting pics of your kids on paddle boards in front of the neighbors house and never correcting folks that said wow what a nice lake house you have. Now go buy someone’s kid a rifle and STFU or start making your retarded argument how you set everyone up again. Make it someone else’s kid though, mine wouldn’t slum that Bergera POS with Chinese glass.
So either you did say it, or you’ll argue that you never came out and said it directly which makes you an even bigger POS for implying it leading everyone on. You know, like you did posting pics of your kids on paddle boards in front of the neighbors house and never correcting folks that said wow what a nice lake house you have. Now go buy someone’s kid a rifle and STFU or start making your retarded argument how you set everyone up again. Make it someone else’s kid though, mine wouldn’t slum that Bergera POS with Chinese glass.
You asked if someone could “buy” their deceased child back, post pics of your neighbors nicer home and claim it’s yours, start 2000 “stick hurt my feelings” threads, brag about how much money you have in your 401k and that your homes are paid off to total strangers, but this is what you find sad and pathetic? JFC…..
And every time, you come running to open your cock holster. Every. Time.
Take your selective outrage and GFY.
Edit: I'll bet you can't quote me saying my neighbor's place is mine, or me saying how much I have in a 401k.
If you can, I'll donate a rifle to someone's kid from this site. If you can't, you STFU and MYOB. You on?
Can you highlight the part where I stated my retirement fund(s) balance?
So either you did say it, or you’ll argue that you never came out and said it directly which makes you an even bigger POS for implying it leading everyone on. You know, like you did posting pics of your kids on paddle boards in front of the neighbors house and never correcting folks that said wow what a nice lake house you have. Now go buy someone’s kid a rifle and STFU or start making your retarded argument how you set everyone up again. Make it someone else’s kid though, mine wouldn’t slum that Bergera POS with Chinese glass.
You had Rene fooled good, sadly. All the secret back channel PM’s convincing him you were setting a trap for a stalker. I call B.S. on anyone calling your work. I wouldn’t believe anything your lying ass posts.
Still waiting on you to post where I stated my retirement balance(s) because talking about a million being not enough to retire isn't it.
GFY
Million got you $30k 7 figures saved by fifty is no big deal Can’t retire on a million and live the way you want…. Once? Maybe not Twice? Ehhhhhh Three times? Nah, you’re full of scheit.
Seriously, [bleep] off. You can go read a poster threaten to do it through his VA "connections" and you know it's happened to others here as well. It's not ever rare or surprising anymore.
Acting like this place doesn't have doxing losers is BS and you damn well know it.
Seriously, [bleep] off. You can go read a poster threaten to do it through his VA "connections" and you know it's happened to others here as well. It's not ever rare or surprising anymore.
Acting like this place doesn't have doxing losers is BS and you damn well know it.
Poster made threats, it never happened though. You’re full of scheit.
You buying someone on here’s kid a rifle or was that just another lie?
Seriously, [bleep] off. You can go read a poster threaten to do it through his VA "connections" and you know it's happened to others here as well. It's not ever rare or surprising anymore.
Acting like this place doesn't have doxing losers is BS and you damn well know it.
Poster made threats, it never happened though. You’re full of scheit.
You buying someone on here’s kid a rifle or was that just another lie?
Jackwagon going the extra mile to solidify the fact that’s he’s a complete Fuqking piece of schidt moron
The board congratulates you
🏆🏆🏆
Little ricky came back to boo-hoo lol
Let us not forget...
Originally Posted by rcamuglia
While I think that there is some exaggeration in a lot of the accounts of the story, I really don't thing Formid is making up stories about his hunt.
The only things I know about Formid are what I can glean from his posts here on the 'fire. Most of his input is thoughtful and accurate. I think he's a quality dude.
Jackwagon going the extra mile to solidify the fact that’s he’s a complete Fuqking piece of schidt moron
The board congratulates you
🏆🏆🏆
Little ricky came back to boo-hoo lol
Let us not forget...
Originally Posted by rcamuglia
While I think that there is some exaggeration in a lot of the accounts of the story, I really don't thing Formid is making up stories about his hunt.
The only things I know about Formid are what I can glean from his posts here on the 'fire. Most of his input is thoughtful and accurate. I think he's a quality dude.
Jackwagon going the extra mile to solidify the fact that’s he’s a complete Fuqking piece of schidt moron
The board congratulates you
🏆🏆🏆
Guy jealous that someone makes more $$ than him, asks if they can “buy their kid back” simply because he got his feelings hurt on here and I’m a POS for calling his constant BS out? Ok.
Jackwagon going the extra mile to solidify the fact that’s he’s a complete Fuqking piece of schidt moron
The board congratulates you
🏆🏆🏆
Little ricky came back to boo-hoo lol
Let us not forget...
Originally Posted by rcamuglia
While I think that there is some exaggeration in a lot of the accounts of the story, I really don't thing Formid is making up stories about his hunt.
The only things I know about Formid are what I can glean from his posts here on the 'fire. Most of his input is thoughtful and accurate. I think he's a quality dude.
Do you disagree with that?
Just pointing out the interesting dichotomy from then to now....perhaps it was prior to your obsession with the obese drunkard.
Yet you are the one that fails to recognise that there is not a lot of animosity here, as it is mostly blokes just taking the opportunity to entertain themselves by irritating others as the occasion allows.
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