Ar15performace.com is working on a new cartridge for the AR-15 platform that promises to deliver game changing performance. If your thinking that sounds like a 6.8SPC think again. The 270AR will deliver at 200FPS more velocity from any barrel length compared to 6.8SPC. That 200FPS boost pretty much over comes the advantage that the 6.5 Grendel has in long range over the 6.8SPC. In other words this new cartridge will threaten the argument for getting either cartridge. Not that the 6.8SPC and 6.5 Grendel shops will pack up and go home this is a wildcat cartridge and will only be for home hand loaders.
Hand loaders should be able to load from 85gr to 140gr bullets making the cartridge applicable for varmints to medium sized game such a hogs, deer, antelope and caribou. I would expect some of the more adventurous to go after Elk with 140gr Berger VLD's. I don't have velocities for a 140 gr but even if we assume 2700FPS which is a low estimate we are in the big game range for Elk according to
HITS. I know many traditional hunters think a .270 is to small for Elk but many Elk have been taken with a .270. Chuck Hawks tackles this subject
here saying the 270 is adequate in his opinion but acknowledge's many hunters consider it an ideal caliber. The 270AR though is not an equivalent to a 270 bolt. As much as the 270AR has on the 6.8SPC the 270 bolt has on the 270AR. Still expect to hear Elk stories in the future from 270AR hunters.
The parent brass will be 6.5 Lapua or 6.5 Creedmore. The 6.5 Lapua is the preferred brass because its thinner and will hold more powder. The 6.5 Creedmore will maybe have a 50 FPS drop in performance from the Lapua due to less powder capacity according to the designers estimates. Hand loaders will take these parent brass cases and cut them down and reshape them using a modified 6.5 lapua reshaping die. No complicated fire forming required. This process will be very similar to what hand loaders are doing now with 5.56mm brass to make it 300 Blk brass.
From a 18in barrel the Hornady 120gr SST is going at 2860FPS and the 130g Berger VLD is getting around 2800FPS from a 20in barrel. The designer estimates that a 110gr bullet should be at or close to 3000FPS. Typically a 6.5mm Grendel max powder capacity is around 29gr compared to around 39gr of powder for the 270AR. This added push out the barrel makes up for the higher BC that the 6.5mm enjoys giving the 270AR much lower drops over long distance shooting. I put together a chart to compare the Grendel to the 270AR shooting 130gr bullets. I couldn't find numbers of a 6.8SPC for the 130gr to do a comparison for this gr size. Be mindful of the barrel length in this comparison because the Grendel has a 4 in barrel length advantage in this data. Read more at the the parent thread over at the
6.8SPC forum. ar15performance.com will be selling the barrels and bolt combos for 400 bucks.
![[Linked Image]](https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/1013137_10151706894924520_2072853521_n.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-S03cYmq1Db4/UdieY-TfkgI/AAAAAAAANAo/OmIzueJAsf8/w524-h460-no/HITS.jpg)
Sooooo, like a 270 Redding?
Chuck Hawks and "H.I.T.S" graphs..
[bleep] awesome.
I'm sure Field and Stream is going to do an article about it. I can't wait..
Too bad they didn't make it a 6.5 or 7mm, on the same case.
I guess 270 is something the average beer belly understands.
Sooooo, like a 270 Redding?
No, the Redding is on a .308 case, right? This is based on the .250 AI or .300 Savage case, which would make it equivalent to the old .270 Titus.
270 Redding isn't going to fit in a AR-15 and 270AR is based on a 6.5 Creedmore and 6.5 Lapua which both fit a 308 bolt face. The 270AR has the same case capacity as the Remington 30AR.
Almost as good as the 6.5 Grendel or the 264 Baer; almost, but not quite.
If both tables were from the same barrel then the Grendel wouldn't even be close. I'm a grendel fan as well and own two but for hunting there really isn't a comparison. The 270AR handily beats it.
Make the slug .007" larger diameter and I'll take a look.
Make the slug .007" larger diameter and I'll take a look.
I'm not affiliated with ar15performace.com or the gun industry in any way. So tell them not me. I just summed up what i learned and ran the ballistics.
If both tables were from the same barrel then the Grendel wouldn't even be close. I'm a grendel fan as well and own two but for hunting there really isn't a comparison. The 270AR handily beats it.
So you've shot the 270AR?
You missed chuck hawks and the charts..
Sooooo, like a 270 Redding?
No, the Redding is on a .308 case, right? This is based on the .250 AI or .300 Savage case, which would make it equivalent to the old .270 Titus.
Knew it was "revolutionary"... put a plastic tip on that bullet and they'll sell a dozen of them
If both tables were from the same barrel then the Grendel wouldn't even be close. I'm a grendel fan as well and own two but for hunting there really isn't a comparison. The 270AR handily beats it.
So you've shot the 270AR?
No like i said i just compiled the info and but the numbers in a ballistic calculator.
But you said for hunting there isn't really a comparison?
So you are just guessing out your ass, surprising.
The cartridges that the 270AR is based on require .473 bolt faces. Is there enough meat on a standard size AR15 bolt head to accommodate the larger case head without shearing locking lugs? If the bolt head is larger will it run in a standard upper and bolt carrier? And what about mags- will it run in a .556, 6.8, or 6.5G mag? Or does it require a .270AR mag? Boosting the power in a AR15 can be desirable- there are a passel of existing cartridges that do that now. Thanks for the info.
But you said for hunting there isn't really a comparison?
So you are just guessing out your ass, surprising.
I'm not guessing i'm looking at the numbers. Its all physics. If the barrel velocity is correct then the comparison is pretty accurate subtle barrels differences not with standing. We know what a .277 bullet can do thats well known so no mystery there at all. If we know the muzzle velocity and the BC of the bullet the rest is just math.
If if's and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a Merry Christmas.
A 30AR beats them all.
The cartridges that the 270AR is based on require .473 bolt faces. Is there enough meat on a standard size AR15 bolt head to accommodate the larger case head without shearing locking lugs? If the bolt head is larger will it run in a standard upper and bolt carrier? And what about mags- will it run in a .556, 6.8, or 6.5G mag? Or does it require a .270AR mag? Boosting the power in a AR15 can be desirable- there are a passel of existing cartridges that do that now. Thanks for the info.
Its not a standard bolt its a 800 series bolt made with 9310 alloy and it will run in 6.8SPC PRI mags and yes will work in a standard upper.
But you said for hunting there isn't really a comparison?
So you are just guessing out your ass, surprising.
So, I guess Newton was "guessing" according to your intellectual way of "thinking".
Never seen a deer killed with a falling apple.
Bullets matter far more than headstamps, placement trumps charts.
I'll take a 223 over a 35 Whelen for deer hunting everyday of the week, but that's based on hunting use, not HIT charts and physics.
The cartridges that the 270AR is based on require .473 bolt faces. Is there enough meat on a standard size AR15 bolt head to accommodate the larger case head without shearing locking lugs? If the bolt head is larger will it run in a standard upper and bolt carrier? And what about mags- will it run in a .556, 6.8, or 6.5G mag? Or does it require a .270AR mag? Boosting the power in a AR15 can be desirable- there are a passel of existing cartridges that do that now. Thanks for the info.
Its not a standard bolt its a 800 series bolt made with 9310 alloy and it will run in 6.8SPC PRI mags and yes will work in a standard upper.
Since it has a 0.473 bolt face I'm guessing it shares the body dia of the 458 SOCOM, which feeds single stack from AR mags. This is where the added zip comes from. All this really obseletes is the WSSM uppers, and since brass for them was/is problematic this is a step forward. Basically turns your M4 into a four pound sniper rifle (added weight of the second upper) plus mags and ammo.
If if's and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a Merry Christmas.
A 30AR beats them all.
The 30AR is a great round but is not a standard AR-15 as in does not use standard AR-15 parts. I can't build it at home and they are in pretty low production and hard to find but still produced unlike what is commonly reported online and it forum chatter. I prefer a AR-15 i can build myself. This 270AR has the same powder capacity as the 30AR but fires a .277 bullet. The only difference from the 270AR from any other AR-15 is the bolt and barrel. No specialty uppers or lowers.
For hunting there really isn't a comparison, the 30AR trumps them all.
I've never used one, but I've read enough about it to know it is better.
Maybe Sir Isaac will chime in on his 30AR experience.
seems to me it solves a problem that doesn't exist but in folk's minds
Maybe Sir Isaac will chime in on his 30AR experience.
The 30AR really isn't an AR-15. I guess i should have been more specific though and say it beats mid caliber AR-15's.
Maybe Sir Isaac will chime in on his 30AR experience.
Damn you're dumb.
If both tables were from the same barrel then the Grendel wouldn't even be close. I'm a grendel fan as well and own two but for hunting there really isn't a comparison. The 270AR handily beats it.
''
So what is "handily"
At what distances in what winds? With how many foot pounds.
How much ACTUAL velocity are you getting? Vs what they proclaim?
Not saying it won't be a good round. But i hardly see anything 200 fps faster than an existing round( if it gets that much) in the arena of cartridges we are talking about as being as a "game changer"
Of course I'm also of the theory that while I have other rounds in the AR, and have shot ARs for years and probably logged more than the average AR shooter round wise, a 223 and tsx bullets do awful good to awful long distances for most folks.
Maybe Sir Isaac will chime in on his 30AR experience.
The 30AR really isn't an AR-15. I guess i should have been more specific though and say it beats mid caliber AR-15's.
Ok this post tells me a LOT.
I'd wait.
I'm a fan of ARPerformance for standard AR lowers but if I'm shoehorning the longest widest cartridge I'm using the longest, widest mag-well. LWRC promises to open source their enlarged mag-well Six8 so expect other manufacturers mag-wells to get bigger also.
The Six8 uses a poly Magpul 6.8 mag with interior OAL of 2.32". Now someones going to come along and build a steel or aluminum mag getting the most out of the new mag-well dimensions. Those dimensions have yet to be made public but for all we know .473 diameter brass might double-stack in such a mag, and the interior length without the poly could easily be in the 2.4" neighborhood.
I'm saving my pennies for a stretched AR10 in .338 Lapua.
And a Sharps .45-90
If both tables were from the same barrel then the Grendel wouldn't even be close. I'm a grendel fan as well and own two but for hunting there really isn't a comparison. The 270AR handily beats it.
''
So what is "handily"
At what distances in what winds? With how many foot pounds.
How much ACTUAL velocity are you getting? Vs what they proclaim?
Not saying it won't be a good round. But i hardly see anything 200 fps faster than an existing round( if it gets that much) in the arena of cartridges we are talking about as being as a "game changer"
Of course I'm also of the theory that while I have other rounds in the AR, and have shot ARs for years and probably logged more than the average AR shooter round wise, a 223 and tsx bullets do awful good to awful long distances for most folks.
The max loads typical with a 6.8 SPC are in the 27-29gr range. The 270AR is in the 39gr range and its shooting the exact same bullets. That should be a clue. The 200FPS jump is a very conservative polite estimate.
The Six8 uses a poly Magpul 6.8 mag with interior OAL of 2.32". Now someones going to come along and build a steel or aluminum mag getting the most out of the new mag-well dimensions. Those dimensions have yet to be made public but for all we know .473 diameter brass might double-stack in such a mag, and the interior length without the poly could easily be in the 2.4" neighborhood.
I thought that magwell and those mags looked bigger, I was in the sandbox and didn't have a dial caliper to measure them though.
Thread HiJack-
We got my buddy Jim this one 100 yards from the first one the next fall. Still one more there this year for me.
![[Linked Image]](http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z371/Weather223/JimsDeer.jpg)
Here's a chart comparing the 6.8SPC II to the 270AR SPR using the same bullet but the 270AR data is from a 2in shorter barrel. Both barrels are 1/11 twist. Its basically adding over 100yards of effectiveness. In other words its like shooting at a deer from over 100 yards closer every time (as far as impact) when using a 270AR. You can see it in the data. We would see an even larger difference if both data was from the same barrel length.
![[Linked Image]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-1bHAmhJzYbQ/UeOHtONWLoI/AAAAAAAANFI/rvVBV2JVx1g/w672-h562-no/120vs+120-18.jpg)
EDIT: Correction to the data. The 270AR is from a 18in barrel. I corrected the chart.
In other words its like shooting at a deer from over 100 yards closer every time when using a 270AR.
LOL
In other words its like shooting at a deer from over 100 yards closer every time when using a 270AR.
LOL
Well not for aim lol but as far as impact. You still need to get the bullet in the right spot. Yeah probably could have worded that better.
Sounds like something I would be interested in. The 223 is good for varmints but I would like something to use on bigger stuff.
Maybe Sir Isaac will chime in on his 30AR experience.
Damn you're dumb.
Figured you'd have nothing, you never do. Please carry on with Newton rifle hunting experience, I'm sure it trumps Salcal.
Compelling you are...
In other words its like shooting at a deer from over 100 yards closer every time when using a 270AR.
Hello Christ, you can't make up that kind of stupid. Maybe Tenballlicker will be along shortly to help.
In other words its like shooting at a deer from over 100 yards closer every time (as far as impact) when using a 270AR. You can see it in the data.
SanCal, how many deer have you killed?
If both tables were from the same barrel then the Grendel wouldn't even be close. I'm a grendel fan as well and own two but for hunting there really isn't a comparison. The 270AR handily beats it.
''
So what is "handily"
At what distances in what winds? With how many foot pounds.
How much ACTUAL velocity are you getting? Vs what they proclaim?
Not saying it won't be a good round. But i hardly see anything 200 fps faster than an existing round( if it gets that much) in the arena of cartridges we are talking about as being as a "game changer"
Of course I'm also of the theory that while I have other rounds in the AR, and have shot ARs for years and probably logged more than the average AR shooter round wise, a 223 and tsx bullets do awful good to awful long distances for most folks.
The max loads typical with a 6.8 SPC are in the 27-29gr range. The 270AR is in the 39gr range and its shooting the exact same bullets. That should be a clue. The 200FPS jump is a very conservative polite estimate.
So you don't have one? So there is no way of knowing what the speeds will actually be then. At least over a few years of watching new rounds come out, well more than a few really, its been my estimation I"ll believe it when I see it.
Some do it, and many don't.
So this thing is a 30 AR necked down to .277 from what I am reading then? Yet the 30 AR is not an AR round? But the 270 is?
So, I was thinking of getting one of these:
http://www.dtechuppers.com/ar-15-wssm-upper-receivers.htmlI absolutely love the .243 WSSM, but in a heavy varmint bolt rifle. The thing nails the little sage rats out to 350 yards and so far has done so while shooting groups in the low .2's to .3's, depending on me. In the Dtech upper the case can be necked up to 6.5, .308 or .358. Downside is that the brass is seasonally produced, but I have several thousand cases on hand. Just for fun I stuffed a few dummy .243 WSSM cartridges loaded with Barnes 62 grain Varmint Grenade bullets @ 2.240" AOL into a Colt magazine and they fit and functioned flawlessly, although in a single center stack.
![[Linked Image]](http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/243WSSMAR-15Mag_zpsb4725000.jpg)
The nominal OAL of the .243 WSSM is 2.360", drop that to 2,240" max and they should feed through the standard AR-15 magazine.
The velocity of the Barnes bullet is 3,587 fps out of my Brux 24" barrel. A 95/100 grain Nosler Partition can be driven up to 3,010 fps with Rl-15, or 3,222 fps with VV N165 in a 24" barrel. Now we have a .535" case head diameter and more powder capacity. In either case head diameter that capacity is going to be diminished by the need to seat heavier bullets deeper.
Sometimes we have great notions, but still the AR-15 was a compromise and not really the perfect platform for flexibility, yet for the tinkerer it offers hours of fun and frolic.
A 15 round 6.8SPC PRI Mag will fit 10 270SPC rounds.
The developer is going to take some pictures of loaded brass and post them on another forum. If he does ill share them here.
Well lets home it delivers 200 fps more than the doggy 6.8
If both tables were from the same barrel then the Grendel wouldn't even be close. I'm a grendel fan as well and own two but for hunting there really isn't a comparison. The 270AR handily beats it.
''
So what is "handily"
At what distances in what winds? With how many foot pounds.
How much ACTUAL velocity are you getting? Vs what they proclaim?
Not saying it won't be a good round. But i hardly see anything 200 fps faster than an existing round( if it gets that much) in the arena of cartridges we are talking about as being as a "game changer"
Of course I'm also of the theory that while I have other rounds in the AR, and have shot ARs for years and probably logged more than the average AR shooter round wise, a 223 and tsx bullets do awful good to awful long distances for most folks.
The max loads typical with a 6.8 SPC are in the 27-29gr range. The 270AR is in the 39gr range and its shooting the exact same bullets. That should be a clue. The 200FPS jump is a very conservative polite estimate.
So you don't have one? So there is no way of knowing what the speeds will actually be then. At least over a few years of watching new rounds come out, well more than a few really, its been my estimation I"ll believe it when I see it.
Some do it, and many don't.
So this thing is a 30 AR necked down to .277 from what I am reading then? Yet the 30 AR is not an AR round? But the 270 is?
Could you address this post please?
SanCal, how many deer have you killed?
SanCal, how many deer have you killed?
How many have you killed RL? Hell, while we're at it, how many PEOPLE have you killed?
9 deer, not enough to be an authority on killing them with certain cartridges, but experienced enough to know it don't take much to put them in a freezer.
As for killing people, don't be a dumb ass you stupid piece of [bleep]..
How's that for an answer, [bleep] for brains?
How many Tiger strips polar bears have you killed in Kansas? If none then how can you put a ballistic chart together? Seriously? Asking about someones hunting history in this thread about ballistics is just a sorry troll attempt to take this discussion off topic so we don't discuss hunting with AR's.
You're discussing killing deer with a theoretical cartridge. You're postulating on the superiority of a cartridge, when you have no first hand knowledge of its performance. Basically, you're talking out your ass.
Charts don't mean jack chit when the rubber meets the road.
"Its like shooting deer from 100 yards closer.."
I'm a grendel fan as well and own two but for hunting there really isn't a comparison. The 270AR handily beats it.
"How many people have you killed?"
This is well past the JeffO level of stupid, and he bends the needle on the stupid meter.
Rancho Loco Lets see your kills with pictures of you with the kills and if not then STFU.
AR15 kills, or just in general?
BTW, I've actually shot deer with an AR15.. plane Jane .223 one, at that.
SCPH,
YOU mentioned hunting. Just so we're clear, YOU mentioned it in your first post and even included a handy little chart about hunting different sized animals.
"How many people have you killed?"
This is well past the JeffO level of stupid, and he bends the needle on the stupid meter.
No, it is what Limbaugh refers to as "Using absurdity to demonstrate the absurd". The "absurd" being your postulation that having killed a deer(s) had a [bleep] thing to do with the topic being discussed in this thread, which of course, happens to be a special talent your ignorant CA ass has in spades.
Try to keep up, dumb [bleep].. read your butt boy's posts, and pull your head out off your ass.
"How many people have you killed?"
This is well past the JeffO level of stupid, and he bends the needle on the stupid meter.
No, it is what Limbaugh refers to as "Using absurdity to demonstrate the absurd". The "absurd" being your postulation that having killed a deer(s) had a [bleep] thing to do with the topic being discussed in this thread, which of course, happens to be a special talent your ignorant CA ass has in spades.
Awe I know this guy from a different forum where he uses a different handle and trolls there as well. Any time hunting with AR's comes up you can count the minutes before he jumps in and starts talking crap. I recognize his writing style.
More talking out your ass? What a surprise!
You're discussing killing deer with a theoretical cartridge. You're postulating on the superiority of a cartridge, when you have no first hand knowledge of its performance. Basically, you're talking out your ass.
Charts don't mean jack chit when the rubber meets the road.
+1
How many have you killed RL? Hell, while we're at it, how many PEOPLE have you killed?
Happen to see how your Kimber 7mm-08 is shooting these days?
I'm a grendel fan as well and own two but for hunting there really isn't a comparison. The 270AR handily beats it.
There is this, especially since he doesn't even own one yet...
I'm a grendel fan as well and own two but for hunting there really isn't a comparison. The 270AR handily beats it.
That's like saying a 30-06 is a much better killer than a 308. The guy who says this is either clueless and inexperienced at actual killing, or trying to sell something.
I'm a grendel fan as well and own two but for hunting there really isn't a comparison. The 270AR handily beats it.
That's like saying a 30-06 is a much better killer than a 308. The guy who says this is either clueless and inexperienced at actual killing, or trying to sell something.
Well, since you brought it up (in no particular context) I'll bite. If your intended quarry requires 200+ grain bullets, then the venerable 06 has a marked advantage. But then WTF does Col Cooper know anyway? I guess he was a 308 "hater" wasn't he?
I spent a bit of time this year walking around on 6.8 brass that an oil-sheik paid for. Not at all impressed with the cartridge. The Grendel launches a great projectile...pathetically slow. The WSSM's have brass consistency/availability issues. I for one am glad someone is trying to finally produce a single-stack round that'll launch a 6mm (ideal, IMO) or larger bullet as close as possible to 3000fps out of a 20in barrel. I thank the gentleman for posting about it.
Rancho GFY.
I'm a grendel fan as well and own two but for hunting there really isn't a comparison. The 270AR handily beats it.
That's like saying a 30-06 is a much better killer than a 308. The guy who says this is either clueless and inexperienced at actual killing, or trying to sell something.
It WOULD be like saying that if you OWNED and SHOT BOTH of them.
This is like saying you have a 308 and read about this new thign called an 06 and it kills WAY better than the 308. But you dont' own one yet and so on.
I'm a grendel fan as well and own two but for hunting there really isn't a comparison. The 270AR handily beats it.
That's like saying a 30-06 is a much better killer than a 308. The guy who says this is either clueless and inexperienced at actual killing, or trying to sell something.
It WOULD be like saying that if you OWNED and SHOT BOTH of them.
This is like saying you have a 308 and read about this new thign called an 06 and it kills WAY better than the 308. But you dont' own one yet and so on.
You're right, but anyone who has owned and killed with both would realize they are basically the same, especially when it comes down to deer sized game.
but it ultimately depends on how many people you've killed and a stupid graph..
"How many people have you killed?"
This is well past the JeffO level of stupid, and he bends the needle on the stupid meter.
No, it is what Limbaugh refers to as "Using absurdity to demonstrate the absurd". The "absurd" being your postulation that having killed a deer(s) had a [bleep] thing to do with the topic being discussed in this thread, which of course, happens to be a special talent your ignorant CA ass has in spades.
Awe I know this guy from a different forum where he uses a different handle and trolls there as well. Any time hunting with AR's comes up you can count the minutes before he jumps in and starts talking crap. I recognize his writing style.
but it ultimately depends on how many people you've killed and a stupid graph..
It depends on stupid alright, especially in your case, as you are quite stuck on it.
I'm a grendel fan as well and own two but for hunting there really isn't a comparison. The 270AR handily beats it.
That's like saying a 30-06 is a much better killer than a 308. The guy who says this is either clueless and inexperienced at actual killing, or trying to sell something.
Well, since you brought it up (in no particular context) I'll bite. If your intended quarry requires 200+ grain bullets, then the venerable 06 has a marked advantage. But then WTF does Col Cooper know anyway? I guess he was a 308 "hater" wasn't he?
I spent a bit of time this year walking around on 6.8 brass that an oil-sheik paid for. Not at all impressed with the cartridge. The Grendel launches a great projectile...pathetically slow. The WSSM's have brass consistency/availability issues. I for one am glad someone is trying to finally produce a single-stack round that'll launch a 6mm (ideal, IMO) or larger bullet as close as possible to 3000fps out of a 20in barrel. I thank the gentleman for posting about it.
Rancho GFY.
We aren't talking about heavy bullets and bears, we are discussing killing deer, remember?
How about that 7mm-08? Hard to take gun advice from a guy who bitched incessantly about how bad his rifle was, sold it, and with very little work became an awesome shooter.
How about that 7mm-08? Hard to take gun advice from a guy who bitched incessantly about how bad his rifle was, sold it, and with very little work became an awesome shooter.
Rolling, here..
I'm a grendel fan as well and own two but for hunting there really isn't a comparison. The 270AR handily beats it.
That's like saying a 30-06 is a much better killer than a 308. The guy who says this is either clueless and inexperienced at actual killing, or trying to sell something.
Well, since you brought it up (in no particular context) I'll bite. If your intended quarry requires 200+ grain bullets, then the venerable 06 has a marked advantage. But then WTF does Col Cooper know anyway? I guess he was a 308 "hater" wasn't he?
I spent a bit of time this year walking around on 6.8 brass that an oil-sheik paid for. Not at all impressed with the cartridge. The Grendel launches a great projectile...pathetically slow. The WSSM's have brass consistency/availability issues. I for one am glad someone is trying to finally produce a single-stack round that'll launch a 6mm (ideal, IMO) or larger bullet as close as possible to 3000fps out of a 20in barrel. I thank the gentleman for posting about it.
Rancho GFY.
We aren't talking about heavy bullets and bears, we are discussing killing deer, remember?
How about that 7mm-08? Hard to take gun advice from a guy who bitched incessantly about how bad his rifle was, sold it, and with very little work became an awesome shooter.
PG, FOAD mofo.
How about that 7mm-08? Hard to take gun advice from a guy who bitched incessantly about how bad his rifle was, sold it, and with very little work became an awesome shooter.
Rolling, here..
Quite possibly in your own drool/bodily fluids, or it may not be that late yet in your AO, but maybe you got an early start?
Lets ignore the trolls and talk calibers and ballistics.
Lets ignore the trolls and talk calibers and ballistics.
I agree. Why don't you address rost's post above that i quoted.
I think some of you guys went way off in left field. We are talking about ballistics and hitting power at various yardages. If you can't read a simple ballistic chart your in the wrong thread. You don't need any of these calibers or really need to have shot any of them to discuss a ballistic chart. If you think you do your in the wrong thread.
I think some of you guys went way off in left field. We are talking about ballistics and hitting power at various yardages. If you can't read a simple ballistic chart your in the wrong thread. You don't need any of these calibers or really need to have shot any of them to discuss a ballistic chart. If you think you do your in the wrong thread.
and has been pointed out claimed figures are often faster than real world figures, often cause they do all their testing for load work up in barrels longer than those found on production guns......so until someone actually puts the loads through a chrony from a production rifle its all speculation and the ballistic chart isnt worth the paper its not printed on.....
Lets ignore the trolls and talk calibers and ballistics.
OK.
What velocities have you chronographed with the new cartridge? What barrel length, powder and COAL length did you use to attain that velocity?
Lets ignore the trolls and talk calibers and ballistics.
When you shoot the new cartridge side by side with existing options how does the recoil compare? What buffer weight / spring combos have you tried? Is there a noticeable difference to the shooter in muzzle blast when compared to existing options, and what barrel lengths did you use to draw that conclusion?
I think some of you guys went way off in left field. We are talking about ballistics and hitting power at various yardages. If you can't read a simple ballistic chart your in the wrong thread. You don't need any of these calibers or really need to have shot any of them to discuss a ballistic chart. If you think you do your in the wrong thread.
Introducing a new cartridge and showing how it compares to other extant cartridges is one thing, allowing people to draw their own conclusions.
I've designed and had built a wildcat, and know for a fact that it didn't do anything existing cartridges already had well covered. I didn't go around harping on worthless ballistic charts (which mean diddly schit in the real world), claiming how much better my round was, especially before I had shot it.
Cartridges sometimes have issues, whether in feeding (as often happens with the minimum taper, sharp shouldered rounds) or with pressure spikes (such as with the 25 WSM). Until it's actually tested
in the real world, it's just a theory.
People's problem with you is in part because you come on and say how much better your round is, without any real proof. Guys that have shot and killed a bit know how little difference there truly is between cartridges. They know how useless comparisons of Foot Pounds of Energy or whatever kind of made up rating system you can come up with matters in the real world.
If your proof of how much better a round is than another comes from a chart, I suggest you need to do a lot more shooting and killing. You need to test both in the field, not simply on paper. Otherwise, your proof is meaningless.
This is all kinda interesting. I've got the parts to build a 6.8 SPC, in fact both a Bison and a Daniel Defense barrel.
But fall is coming, and a higher priority is to see if I can get 130's up to 3200 fps, out of a newfangled 6.8 x 64
I think some of you guys went way off in left field. We are talking about ballistics and hitting power at various yardages. If you can't read a simple ballistic chart your in the wrong thread. You don't need any of these calibers or really need to have shot any of them to discuss a ballistic chart. If you think you do your in the wrong thread.
and has been pointed out claimed figures are often faster than real world figures, often cause they do all their testing for load work up in barrels longer than those found on production guns......so until someone actually puts the loads through a chrony from a production rifle its all speculation and the ballistic chart isnt worth the paper its not printed on.....
He's using a 20in and 18in barrels with a 1/11 twist to test.
The rounds double stack in the mag by the way and are not single stacked as someone said.
I think some of you guys went way off in left field. We are talking about ballistics and hitting power at various yardages. If you can't read a simple ballistic chart your in the wrong thread. You don't need any of these calibers or really need to have shot any of them to discuss a ballistic chart. If you think you do your in the wrong thread.
Introducing a new cartridge and showing how it compares to other extant cartridges is one thing, allowing people to draw their own conclusions.
I've designed and had built a wildcat, and know for a fact that it didn't do anything existing cartridges already had well covered. I didn't go around harping on worthless ballistic charts (which mean diddly schit in the real world), claiming how much better my round was, especially before I had shot it.
Cartridges sometimes have issues, whether in feeding (as often happens with the minimum taper, sharp shouldered rounds) or with pressure spikes (such as with the 25 WSM). Until it's actually tested
in the real world, it's just a theory.
People's problem with you is in part because you come on and say how much better your round is, without any real proof. Guys that have shot and killed a bit know how little difference there truly is between cartridges. They know how useless comparisons of Foot Pounds of Energy or whatever kind of made up rating system you can come up with matters in the real world.
If your proof of how much better a round is than another comes from a chart, I suggest you need to do a lot more shooting and killing. You need to test both in the field, not simply on paper. Otherwise, your proof is meaningless.
Your really confused. I'm not designing nor affiliated with the designer or this round at all. I'm asking him questions on a couple different forum and relaying the information here. He's posting up the velocities with the exact powder loads as he's testing so you see his load development. I just took the numbers and did the math. Read my original post i think that was pretty clear. I link to the original thread in first post.
And so how does maybe a 100-200 fps just flat kill way better than anything else?
Once again, you have to have your foot in the reality world to come to conclusions.
I"ve done the math on some match stuff, and yet in the real world of competition, sometimes what the computer tells you with actual data, just doesn't jive. Some things work better than others.
Just exactly why short fat PPC type cases are more inherently accurate than many others boggles my mind, but its certainly proven...
The road goes on forever....
And so how does maybe a 100-200 fps just flat kill way better than anything else?
Once again, you have to have your foot in the reality world to come to conclusions.
I"ve done the math on some match stuff, and yet in the real world of competition, sometimes what the computer tells you with actual data, just doesn't jive. Some things work better than others.
Just exactly why short fat PPC type cases are more inherently accurate than many others boggles my mind, but its certainly proven...
The road goes on forever....
I'm not real sure what your talking about or how to respond to you. You seem to be arguing against a statement from someone else.
I'm not the confused one here.
You are trying to quantify killing power with numbers and charts. Numbers and charts mean dick in the real world when it comes to killing.
I'm not real sure what your talking about or how to respond to you. You seem to be arguing against a statement from someone else.
He's saying(like everyone else has) that data charts do not equal real world results or experience. You have no real world experience or results, and are only going by what the manufacturer has said so far.
And so how does maybe a 100-200 fps just flat kill way better than anything else?
Once again, you have to have your foot in the reality world to come to conclusions.
I"ve done the math on some match stuff, and yet in the real world of competition, sometimes what the computer tells you with actual data, just doesn't jive. Some things work better than others.
Just exactly why short fat PPC type cases are more inherently accurate than many others boggles my mind, but its certainly proven...
The road goes on forever....
I'm not real sure what your talking about or how to respond to you. You seem to be arguing against a statement from someone else.
if you cant keep up with this its prolly best you leave to ballistic postulating to someone else......
I think some of you guys went way off in left field. We are talking about ballistics and hitting power at various yardages. If you can't read a simple ballistic chart your in the wrong thread. You don't need any of these calibers or really need to have shot any of them to discuss a ballistic chart. If you think you do your in the wrong thread.
Okay...
You have produced a little chart that we are supposed to discuss with you. So let's discuss.
You don't have a rifle chambered for this cartridge yet do you?
So there is no way of knowing what the speeds will actually be then other than what your programs are spitting out. Have you been paying attention to the speculated velocities that have been spewed out the past decade and taken notes on which ones actually meet their advertised velocities? It's very few...
If you are proclaiming the ballistic superiority of this cartridge by referencing us to your little chart that you just again modified, why would you pick a .277" caliber for this cartridge when a .264" or .284" will be ballistically superior for the bullet weights you want to shoot and the cartridge's powder capacity?
Any interest in addressing these questions?
And so how does maybe a 100-200 fps just flat kill way better than anything else?
Once again, you have to have your foot in the reality world to come to conclusions.
I"ve done the math on some match stuff, and yet in the real world of competition, sometimes what the computer tells you with actual data, just doesn't jive. Some things work better than others.
Just exactly why short fat PPC type cases are more inherently accurate than many others boggles my mind, but its certainly proven...
The road goes on forever....
I'm not real sure what your talking about or how to respond to you. You seem to be arguing against a statement from someone else.
Pretty simple, until you use the cartridge later this fall or winter( your own statement says its this fall and not sooner) on targets and game and get some under your belt and then compare to the next slower cartridge, how game reacts, how quicker it dies etc...... you have NO clue how this thing will work.
Guess how they figured out rockets worked? Design, draw, build and launch. YOu can bet the first one that crumpled on launch the designers didnt' say, hey, this one will go up a few feet and then come apart and explode.....
Some folks still fall for the ocean front property thing too.
And as another noted, if you think there is huge difference between the 06 and 308 in killing power on deer, you have not shot both very much. Same thing here, but the horse has been beat to death long ago.
I'm saving my pennies for a stretched AR10 in .338 Lapua.
And a Sharps .45-90
Let me set ya up with a nice Barrett in 20-50 Anzio.
Gunner
The same protocol is used in the marketing of compound bows. I have never come close to advertised FPS using the minimum required real world arrow weight, hunting broad head , draw length when using a chronograph .
Simple way to solve this debacle is to load up the new round with standard barrel length , reasonable pressures, chrono and post results and accuracy of this new round. Be even better if it was windy or really hot or cold at the test range.
The guys on here that know their stuff do this and post results.
I think some of you guys went way off in left field. We are talking about ballistics and hitting power at various yardages. If you can't read a simple ballistic chart your in the wrong thread. You don't need any of these calibers or really need to have shot any of them to discuss a ballistic chart. If you think you do your in the wrong thread.
Okay...
You have produced a little chart that we are supposed to discuss with you. So let's discuss.
You don't have a rifle chambered for this cartridge yet do you?
So there is no way of knowing what the speeds will actually be then other than what your programs are spitting out. Have you been paying attention to the speculated velocities that have been spewed out the past decade and taken notes on which ones actually meet their advertised velocities? It's very few...
If you are proclaiming the ballistic superiority of this cartridge by referencing us to your little chart that you just again modified, why would you pick a .277" caliber for this cartridge when a .264" or .284" will be ballistically superior for the bullet weights you want to shoot and the cartridge's powder capacity?
Any interest in addressing these questions?
Once again i didn't pick the bullet i'm not the designer if you want to discuss why he picked what ask him the original thread is linked in my first post. I'm using his measurements hes posting up his measurements as hes doing load development so its pretty legit. When your using 10gr's more powder a 200fps jump over the 6.8spc is a conservative estimate. He has created a 6.5mm wildcat called the 6.5mm brx that had some pretty good numbers.
I'm not real sure what your talking about or how to respond to you. You seem to be arguing against a statement from someone else.
He's saying(like everyone else has) that data charts do not equal real world results or experience. You have no real world experience or results, and are only going by what the manufacturer has said so far.
Ballistics are controlled by physics and are pretty predictable as long as you know the barrel velocity, grain size and BC of the bullet you know its flight path in perfect conditions of course. The rules of the universe are fairly consistent
.
I'm not real sure what your talking about or how to respond to you. You seem to be arguing against a statement from someone else.
He's saying(like everyone else has) that data charts do not equal real world results or experience. You have no real world experience or results, and are only going by what the manufacturer has said so far.
Okay jackazz, I guess you choose to ignore bullet manufacturer's reccomendations regarding a minimum speed for a bullet to open and perform as designed. 200+fps is potentially huge, in a cartridge format with the restrictions that the AR mag has. Anyone not smart enough to understand that should STFU and go [bleep] on another thread.
The rules of the universe are fairly consistent
.
Not among many "intellectuals" here at the fire. The universe bends to their will.
Pretty easy to state a case though, I could shoot 10 deer in the guts with the SLOW 6.8 and then head or shoulder shoot 10 with the new wiz bang round that MIGHT make it to market and proclaim it to be a winner....
RE 200 fps being potentially huge is true. But its something that rarely is the case in the real world.
And if you think that some little things dont' make a difference, talk to some of the other grunts out there that were dealing with 5.56 in 62 grain and then got swapped to 77SMKs..... same gun, same round, even slower bullet, but performance turned WAY around.....
I'm not real sure what your talking about or how to respond to you. You seem to be arguing against a statement from someone else.
He's saying(like everyone else has) that data charts do not equal real world results or experience. You have no real world experience or results, and are only going by what the manufacturer has said so far.
Ballistics are controlled by physics and are pretty predictable as long as you know the barrel velocity, grain size and BC of the bullet you know its flight path in perfect conditions of course. The rules of the universe are fairly consistent
.
you really havent done much shooting over a chrony.....what you say is true when everything is perfect.....real world aint perfect and rounds often dont do what the computer program predicts.....especially when your talking not a huge difference between two rounds....
I'll address both of you dick [bleep] with this one post. Two stupid birds with one succinct stone as it were.
You are basing you're entire load of schit(charts and all) on numbers being put out by the originator of the cartridge. A person who has a vested interest in this cartridge for personal and financial reasons. It is not unheard or nor uncommon for those numbers to rather different than the real world results obtained by others with no vested interest in its success or failure.
And I'd bet if its actually "as advertised" it would very possibly be well accepted.
Of course its funny too how I shot deer for years with the 243 Win, and then had a 6.8 spc necked down to 6mm, IE a slow 243 if you will and have killed a LOT of stuff with it since. Cant' really tell the difference over the years. And its gotta be probably 300 plus FPS slower than 243 Win.
I'd surmise if someone looked at the numbers they'd scream the new round could NEVER do anything good.
Of course at 325 yards so far, a doe took one in the chest, a large mature one, and it exited the hindquarter and kept going. So even though the charts should say it sucks vs 243, its been a right handy little round.
That's the crux of this argument. I'm sure this new round will be effective and just fine. But when someone comes on and touts its vast superiority, especially without having tested it, that grinds my gears.
Sounds like it might be a little better than a 6.8 - if it feeds okay. I looked at AR15performance.com; barrels are not available until the fall of this year. So it may be an interesting project at some point in the future.
how old are you, I'm welling to bet pretty young otherwise you'd be able to comprehend what others here are trying to tell you.
Lets ignore the trolls and talk calibers and ballistics.
OK.
What velocities have you chronographed with the new cartridge? What barrel length, powder and COAL length did you use to attain that velocity?
Lets ignore the trolls and talk calibers and ballistics.
When you shoot the new cartridge side by side with existing options how does the recoil compare? What buffer weight / spring combos have you tried? Is there a noticeable difference to the shooter in muzzle blast when compared to existing options, and what barrel lengths did you use to draw that conclusion?
how old are you, I'm welling to bet pretty young otherwise you'd be able to comprehend what others here are trying to tell you.
how old are you, I'm welling to bet pretty young otherwise you'd be able to comprehend what others here are trying to tell you.
You got me i'm still wet behind the ears but you taught me well and i now know old crusty walmart beer belly hunters get better ballistics just because of experience. Blah hahaha....
You wanted to talk about calipers and ballistics. I asked you multiple questions about the cartridge and its ballistics.
But you won't answer me. That's because you don't have any answers that you can't read off of a chart.
You got im still wet behind the ears but you taught me well and i now know old crusty walmart beer belly hunters get better ballistics just because of experience. Blah hahaha....
Jesus SanCalPigPhucker are you this stupid in real life, or do you just play it on the internet?...
One more time and maybe you will understand it.
You have no personal experiences with the round you are talking about, and all your speculation is based on hype from the rounds creators. Which means exactly jack chit in real life.
Until there is some actual data and testing done by people who don't have a stake the success of the cartridge its no [bleep] game changer.
don't drink and i run all my hand loads over a chrono so i don't have to guess. i've killed hogs with everything from a 22 to my 300rum, lots with my AR shooting 223. bullet construction and shot placement trump velocity.
...or maybe just ask the folks over at ar15performance.com to chip and buy you a pair of these:
![[Linked Image]](http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/nickfury_66/ataboykneepads.jpg)
how old are you, I'm welling to bet pretty young otherwise you'd be able to comprehend what others here are trying to tell you.
how old are you, I'm welling to bet pretty young otherwise you'd be able to comprehend what others here are trying to tell you.
You got im still wet behind the ears but you taught me well and i now know old crusty walmart beer belly hunters get better ballistics just because of experience. Blah hahaha....
well, those of us who've been handloading for 30+ years have seen more than a few new wonder cartridges arrive with great fanfare. Some have stuck, some have faded away. New isn't necessarily bad, but it's not automatically good, either. Lots of super-duper wildcats have arrived with great performance numbers, until people realized they were loaded really, really, hot.
There's guys here who have killed deer with 6.8 SPC's; the military has issued it, so lots of real world data says it works as advertised. If it's going to be a few months before anyone even has barrels available for the 270AR, then a little skepticism is warranted, especially when like me I've already bought a 6.8 SPC bolt & barrel.
And us old timers also remember that a decrepit old round, the 6.8 x 64 (aka .270 Win) will drive 130's easily over 3100 fps, maybe as much as 3200 fps, just to put things in perspective
But hey I'm open minded, if someone wants to trade me a 270AR barrel & bolt for my 6.8 SPC parts, and let me be a Beta tester, I promise to be open minded
The 6.8SPC was produced by Remington from a request of a Special Forces Unit. All military requests to industry are outlined in what's referred to as "requirements". These requirements are detailed and force the contractor work with them. The 6.8SPC being for a military application had a requirement to hold a specific number of rounds in the magazine. This magazine requirement limited the brass size of each case. Remington needed to design a round within these limitations. The smaller brass size limited the amount of powder grains that could loaded and therefore the velocity of the projectile. Taking the same bullet the .277 (270) without the rounds per magazine limitation opens up the possibility for large case size and therefore more powder and higher velocity's. In other words nothing surprising about getting 200fps higher than the 6.8spc which is designed as a military round NOT A HUNTING cartridge. The wildcat case (based on the 6.5 lapua) will hold 10 more grains of powder and therefore 200fps improvement is a conservative number. There's no reason to believe that the developer is faking numbers but I think hes probably being conservative in his estimates.
I had not said it before, but after this post, maybe the forum you came from is a better place for you to be.
Hell this one even has an AR type specific subforum but here you are brand new and all, telling folks that have run the AR probably before you were born, how it all should and will be. Never mind actually having done it.
The 6.8SPC was produced by Remington from a request of a Special Forces Unit. All military requests to industry are outlined in what's referred to as "requirements". These requirements are detailed and force the contractor work with them. The 6.8SPC being for a military application had a requirement to hold a specific number of rounds in the magazine. This magazine requirement limited the brass size of each case. Remington needed to design a round within these limitations. The smaller brass size limited the amount of powder grains that could loaded and therefore the velocity of the projectile. Taking the same bullet the .277 (270) without the rounds per magazine limitation opens up the possibility for large case size and therefore more powder and higher velocity's. In other words nothing surprising about getting 200fps higher than the 6.8spc which is designed as a military round NOT A HUNTING cartridge. The wildcat case (based on the 6.5 lapua) will hold 10 more grains of powder and therefore 200fps improvement is a conservative number. There's no reason to believe that the developer is faking numbers but I think hes probably being conservative in his estimates.
According to Mule Deer's 1/4 rule, the 270 SPR should be capable of around 200 fps increase at similar pressure levels compared to the 6.8 SPC. This is using the case capacity figures you quoted.
According to Hodgdon 6.8 data, a 110 Vmax is capable of 2690 fps with a 24" barrel (with 30 grains of IMR 8208) . Conservatively estimating a 15 fps loss per inch, that will be around 2610 with an 18" barrel at similar pressure levels.
So if your round is capable of a 200 fps increase, we are looking at just over 2800 fps with 110s at similar pressure levels.
This is if everything goes according to plan. The increase in case capacity may bump up the best powder choice into a slower bracket, and IMR 8208 may not be ideal. In face, I'm betting it will be on the fast side when it comes to 130 grain bullets, but that's just a postulation.
You got im still wet behind the ears but you taught me well and i now know old crusty walmart beer belly hunters get better ballistics just because of experience. Blah hahaha....
Jesus SanCalPigPhucker are you this stupid in real life, or do you just play it on the internet?...
One more time and maybe you will understand it.
You have no personal experiences with the round you are talking about, and all your speculation is based on hype from the rounds creators. Which means exactly jack chit in real life.
Until there is some actual data and testing done by people who don't have a stake the success of the cartridge its no [bleep] game changer.
Read my above post and you will see its not hype and rather expected. Nothing surpriseing about getting 200FPS out of a AR shooting .277 cal bullets. Its about time someone did it. You just need a little fatter case that will hold more powder. its not a large capacity mag tactical type rifle but rather a AR-15 hunting rifle that will hold less bullets per magazine.
5.56, 264LBC/Grendel, 6.8x45GPC, 270AR, 6.5x47, 308
![[Linked Image]](http://m.b5z.net/i/u/6132121/i/6.8x45-270AR.jpg)
The bolt is a 800 serices bolt made from stronger alloy.
![[Linked Image]](http://m.b5z.net/zirw/345/i/u/6132121/i/6br_ezr.jpg)
200 fps gains me............what? More recoil/noise for my 8 year old son, great!
I understand that everyone has a different application for their hunting ARs. I'm not generally using mine (for deer) past 300, and that's not frequent. The 6.8 does the job with no fuss.
I'm good.......
George
Using another one of "The Rules" we see that an increase from the 110 to a 130 grain bullets, should result in a 9% decrease in velocity. At 2800 fps, that means a 254 fps decrease, when increasing from a 110 to a 130 grain bullet.
So going by a comparison with published 6.8 SPC data, you should see 2550 with a 130 in an 18" barrel with the 270 SPR. I'll be generous and say 2600, as you may run into a better suited powder.
Of course, if you jump the pressure, the sky is the limit....
200 fps gains me............what? More recoil/noise for my 8 year old son, great!
I understand that everyone has a different application for their hunting ARs. I'm not generally using mine (for deer) past 300, and that's not frequent. The 6.8 does the job with no fuss.
I'm good.......
George
Most hunting bullets require a velocity of 1800FPS to expand. Adding 200FPS makes the actual effective hunting range longer. Look at the graphs i posted keeping in mind the 1800fps impact rule and you'll see it gives you more than 100 yards more effective actual hunting range. In other words deer you had to let go are now in play. Deer that were already in range are now being hit with more energy than before.
200 fps gains me............what? More recoil/noise for my 8 year old son, great!
I understand that everyone has a different application for their hunting ARs. I'm not generally using mine (for deer) past 300, and that's not frequent. The 6.8 does the job with no fuss.
I'm good.......
George
Most hunting bullets require a velocity of 1800FPS to expand. Adding 200FPS makes the actual effective hunting range longer. Look at the graphs i posted keeping in mind the 1800fps impact rule and you'll see it gives you more than 100 yards more effective actual hunting range. In other words deer you had to let go are now in play. Deer that were already in range are now being hit with more energy than before.
you really havent done much actual hunting.....put down Field and Stream and actually get out in the field.....
Yeah, I have no problem grasping the theory of extra yardage and more energy at closer range. My point, again, is that IMO it isn't necessary.
The 6.8 has no issues with deer past 300. In my AO, I very rarely see shots like those. If I do, I can spin the extra with no worries. I'm certainly not letting Connor, my son, take those shots at this point so it's irrelevant there.
So, again, what does it offer me besides more recoil/noise for my boy to contend with?
Ok, just ran the 6.8 SPC through Quickload. At Max SAAMI pressure, it looks to fall just short of 2400 fps with a 130 Berger.
I noted that the data I quoted earlier fell a bit short of SAAMI max, so the 2600 with a 130 is probably in the ballpark for the 270 SPR.
Getting back to the quickload data....Add the 200 fps the 270 SPR is capable of, and we see around 2600 with a 130 in an 18" barrel. So I sorta confirmed the data I came up with using "The Rules". If I'm off on my math somewhere, someone please correct me, as I'm borderline retarded when it comes to math.
That is A LONG ways from the 2775 being quoted with a 20" barrel.Of course, if a guy was using "some guys" 6.8 SPC internet data, and not pressure tested data, it's probably doable.
I remember a guy on here a couple years ago who developed a super improved 25-06, and was disappointed when he couldn't beat the random person on the internet's data he had found on reloader's nest. For all he knew, the guy with the 3600 fps with a 100 grain bullet out of a 25-06 Ackley that he was trying to beat had sent the bolt back through his face the next pull of the trigger.
What I'm saying here, is that one must compare to published, pressure tested data, not internet pressures.
SanCal, will you answer any of my questions?
It seems like you're only wanting to argue.
Anytime Squats_To_Pee has your back, you're on the losing end.
Or the winning end for Salcalpig
This explains why the 270AR is the best
![[Linked Image]](http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/history/gravity.gif)
According to Mule Deer's 1/4 rule, the 270 SPR should be capable of around 200 fps increase at similar pressure levels compared to the 6.8 SPC. This is using the case capacity figures you quoted.
According to Hodgdon 6.8 data, a 110 Vmax is capable of 2690 fps with a 24" barrel (with 30 grains of IMR 8208) . Conservatively estimating a 15 fps loss per inch, that will be around 2610 with an 18" barrel at similar pressure levels.
So if your round is capable of a 200 fps increase, we are looking at just over 2800 fps with 110s at similar pressure levels.
This is if everything goes according to plan. The increase in case capacity may bump up the best powder choice into a slower bracket, and IMR 8208 may not be ideal. In face, I'm betting it will be on the fast side when it comes to 130 grain bullets, but that's just a postulation.
Try using the 270WIN as your base starting place and work down vs using the 6.8SPC and working up and lets see what that shows. I would but i don't have that QL software yet.
This is the best car going, it can drive itself, and gets 250 miles per gallon of gasoline. Beats any car by 100 years, should be out @2050.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.instablogsimages.com/1/2012/03/28/image_title_kuynb.jpg)
Seriously, its the new JeffO. This level of absolute stupidity doesn't come along very often, even in this sewer of stupid.
The west coast OWNS stupid it would seem....
Since most of you aren't reading the original thread i posted heres the developers load development notes.
Today- 18" barrel
37gr CFE223, not max pressure. 110gr HPBT=2855fps chrono did not read above 37gr. 40gr was not max pressure.
37gr CFE223, not max pressure. 120gr SST=2736
39gr CFE223, Max pressure 120gr SST=2860 primer starting to flatten, no cratering.
38gr CFE223, 130gr Berger=2692fps-no signs of pressure.
Just a swag here, the 110s should hit 3000 or close, 120s as shown 2850-2900 and the 130s 2750-2800 out of a 20".
85gr TSX 3300???
38gr CFE223, 130gr Berger=2692fps-no signs of pressure. That's a pretty serious long range load right there.
Just a swag here, the 110s should hit 3000 or close, 120s as shown 2850 more or less and the 130s 2700-2750.
85gr TSX 3300???
38gr CFE223, 130gr Berger=2692fps-no signs of pressure. That's a pretty serious long range load right there.
36gr 8208 130 Berger=2788fps Holy Flippin Moley! -Primers show light cratering here. I had 1 shot at 2855.
Either load is 260 Remington with a 24" barrel territory!
H335 turned out to be a little slow with the 85gr TSX 40gr =3139 with no signs of pressure-max case fill.
RE7 on the other hand worked out great-36gr RE7=3291 with no signs of pressure, could probably go to 37gr which is pretty close to max case fill.
RE7 For the light ones, 8208 and N530 for the 130s. 10x, H335 and x-term may work for the 100s.
While all powders may not produce the most velocity, everything from RE7 on the fast end to Varget and RE15 could be used with some bullets.
For those that asked about Varget. 35gr +2560fps. It wasn't near max pressure so it maybe possible to get 36gr in the case bumping the vel another 50-60ps. 2600 max IMO.
RE15 will likely be the same.
N530-35gr=2801fps max pressure not max fill.
Looks like he is using the flattened or cratered primers to test for max pressure? You gotta be joking me.
It would be step forward based on what I've read so far...
This is the best car going, it can drive itself, and gets 250 miles per gallon of gasoline. Beats any car by 100 years, should be out @2050.
Dude that is clearly a game changer.
Looks like he is using the flattened or cratered primers to test for max pressure? You gotta be joking me.
Hey, just use 270 win data and work down..
I'd go sideways with 260 Rem data.
Charlie Sisk once blew off the end of a 300 WM barrel. 5 inches worth IIRC and he didn't have any cratered primers AND he was running a legit pressure gauge. KNEW what he was doing for pressure - for sure.
Let's be really optimistic and just start with .270 Wby data and work down...
Yeah, I have no problem grasping the theory of extra yardage and more energy at closer range. My point, again, is that IMO it isn't necessary.
The 6.8 has no issues with deer past 300. In my AO, I very rarely see shots like those. If I do, I can spin the extra with no worries. I'm certainly not letting Connor, my son, take those shots at this point so it's irrelevant there.
So, again, what does it offer me besides more recoil/noise for my boy to contend with?
Oh stop. George. There arent any deer in NH
Yeah, I have no problem grasping the theory of extra yardage and more energy at closer range. My point, again, is that IMO it isn't necessary.
The 6.8 has no issues with deer past 300. In my AO, I very rarely see shots like those. If I do, I can spin the extra with no worries. I'm certainly not letting Connor, my son, take those shots at this point so it's irrelevant there.
So, again, what does it offer me besides more recoil/noise for my boy to contend with?
Oh stop. George. There arent any deer in NH
George uses 500 nitros for hogs, i think he is full of chit saying he uses a 6.8SPC for deer.....
Interesting. I ran Quickload for 270 Winchester with an 18" barrel and 55000 psi max. In other words, taking everything out of the equation except the case capacity. Ended up with around 2860 as max velocity with a 130 Berger with a number of powders (RE 25 showed another 20 fps, but there are a bunch right around 2850-2860).
Did the math (and keep in mind this is using the case capacities the OP gave us for the 270AR, so things could vary a bit in real life). Ended up with around 260 fps less than the 270 Winchester.......or 2600 fps.
Yeah, I think he just runs after 'em and catches them, myself
This is not a cartridge for everyone as a matter of fact it isn't for most. Most don't have any business with a wildcat. If someone is stupid enough to buy it and give it to the 8 year old like someone is forcing him well he deserves the dumb ass award.
No one here has any experience at all with this round, don't attempt to show how much you know if it is nothing.
Please leave this on forums where the members are more experienced.
Most don't have any business with a wildcat.
Especially the guys in charge of this one.
It's the "angel/devil" situation. I have Gunner on one shoulder telling me to go bigger/heavier and Scott on the other preaching small/fast. I can't quite bring myself to go to the .233 for deer (yet) but the 95ttsx is a good start
Our deer herd does, in fact, suck. That's why I travel!
George
Sont feel bad george. I dont shoot many deer from a duck boat either
I wouldn't listen much to that gunner punk.
If someone is stupid enough to buy it and give it to the 8 year old like someone is forcing him well he deserves the dumb ass award
I don't believe the thought ever crossed my mind. It was an example to show that, for my application, the 6.8 delivers all I need.
When I was doing my homework on the 6.8 (years ago) you provided a wealth of knowledge without the prissy attitude. Things change I guess.
This is not a cartridge for everyone as a matter of fact it isn't for most. Most don't have any business with a wildcat. If someone is stupid enough to buy it and give it to the 8 year old like someone is forcing him well he deserves the dumb ass award.
No one here has any experience at all with this round, don't attempt to show how much you know if it is nothing.
Please leave this on forums where the members are more experienced.
I'd put the collective experience with internal/external ballistics of this forum up against most. Particularly when you consider the experience of people like Howell, Barsness, Turpin, Timm, and others.
Quite honestly anyone developing wildcats and using such inaccurate indicators such as a slightly flattened primer as indications of pressure is incredibly foolhardy.
If you want to play and act like you're some sort of expert, comparing it to other cartridges which only makes sense at similar pressures - you need a pressure strain gauge. Anything else is just BS.
I'd put the collective experience with guessing/talking out their ass of this forum up against most too.........
Please leave this on forums where the members are more experienced.
Too [bleep] funny.
This forum HAS really gone into the toilet..
This thread is starting to remind me of another one...
...what was it? Something about snipers?
...hmmmm...
maybe gratuitous pictures are in order?
my current .270:
![[Linked Image]](http://i712.photobucket.com/albums/ww127/tex_n_cal/04c84a97.jpg)
and better yet?
![[Linked Image]](http://i712.photobucket.com/albums/ww127/tex_n_cal/april_vokey_steelie.jpg)
I think I read somewhere once that 270s are gay. Has anyone else heard this? I don't recall if it was just the 270 winchester or anything firing a .277 bullet. Anybody know?
I believe Ingwe will have to make the ruling on that.
Interestingly enough, Quickload has a wildcat with approx. the same case capacity as this round. Won't do even close to 2750 without getting into pressures too high for an AR (or at least one I'm shooting).
Interesting. I ran Quickload for 270 Winchester with an 18" barrel and 55000 psi max. In other words, taking everything out of the equation except the case capacity. Ended up with around 2860 as max velocity with a 130 Berger with a number of powders (RE 25 showed another 20 fps, but there are a bunch right around 2850-2860).
Did the math (and keep in mind this is using the case capacities the OP gave us for the 270AR, so things could vary a bit in real life). Ended up with around 260 fps less than the 270 Winchester.......or 2600 fps.
The developer said it has the same case capacity at the Remington 30AR.
Interestingly enough, Quickload has a wildcat with approx. the same case capacity as this round. Won't do even close to 2750 without getting into pressures too high for an AR (or at least one I'm shooting).
Keep in mind its not using a standard bolt.
Looks awful long. Special magazines? What's coal.?
Interestingly enough, Quickload has a wildcat with approx. the same case capacity as this round. Won't do even close to 2750 without getting into pressures too high for an AR (or at least one I'm shooting).
Keep in mind its not using a standard bolt.
So what kind of pressures can you run with this super bolt?
The Rem 30AR has a case capacity of 44
http://kwk.us/cases.html. Maybe that could be used as a reference?
So what kind of pressures can you run with this super bolt?
Um duh right up to the point when the primers begin to flatten or crater...
Interestingly enough, Quickload has a wildcat with approx. the same case capacity as this round. Won't do even close to 2750 without getting into pressures too high for an AR (or at least one I'm shooting).
Keep in mind its not using a standard bolt.
So what kind of pressures can you run with this super bolt?
I really don't know what they are getting.
http://www.ar15performance.com/_6br___800_series_bolts"The sets(only sold in sets) available currently use a standard thread .812-16TPI extension like most AR15s, The long extensions are not avail at this time. The bolt face allows the use of .473 or 308 rim sized cases in a AR15. The bolts fit any mil spec AR15/M16 carrier. The bottom 2 lugs are clearanced to pass over rounds in the mag. BR(308) diameter cases feed from 6.8 mags, either CPD or PRI mags allow loading to 2.295 OAL. 10 fit in a 15 round mag. 8/10/12"
![[Linked Image]](http://pm.b5z.net/i/u/6132121/i/6br_ezr.jpg)
I just love how it's .277" anything and we are talking about "long range"...
So, in other words......you have no idea what pressure levels would be reasonable considered safe with this "super" bolt....super thin walled bolt???
With QL, if I take the parent case 6.5x47 Lapua sideways, I can get 130gr bullet out at 2800.....at 63K psi.....
What's the H20 Capacity at overflow?
So, in other words......you have no idea what pressure levels would be reasonable considered safe with this "super" bolt....super thin walled bolt???
With QL, if I take the parent case 6.5x47 Lapua sideways, I can get 130gr bullet out at 2800.....at 63K psi.....
What's the H20 Capacity at overflow?
Don't forget the bottom two lugs that are "clearanced"...
That HAS to make them stronger right?
And H20 capacity?....
Um hello obvious uh right up to the case mouth.
I may be interested, waiting for verdict on the pending "gay/not gay"decision. Pighunter, can I order directly from you, or do I need to go through your website?
I'm not affiliated just posting up info for the trolls to insult me with;)
I'm not affiliated just posting up info for the trolls to insult me with;)
If you've got the info, what's the H2o capacity at overflow?
I'm not affiliated just posting up info for the trolls to insult me with;)
If you've got the info, what's the H2o capacity at overflow?
I don't have it but the developer said it was the same as the Remington 30AR so that should be on the net somewhere. I googled it and came up with the number 44 but not sure what to do with it.
To me, this whole AR-15 big game cartridge business is like trying to make a pickup truck out of a Pinto. Just buy a Damned pickup truck!
If I want to hunt big game with an AR (I don't) Give me an AR-10 in some kind of '08 based cartridge, most likely a 6.5/08. Even then I am not going to be really happy about it because to me, medium to big game cartridges all burn 70-90 grs of powder and push monolithic bullets with a good BC and SD out the snout at 3000fps or more and 3500 or more is better still.
Nothing that will run in an AR is ever going to be a 257WBY or a 7mm Mashburn Super or a 340 or a ......
And they are heavy for the amount of power you get, and ugly.
I have had a few, got a really nice one with a Schneider barrel and Jewel Trigger for sale right now and wen it sells I will probably will get another. But a proper big game rifle, they ain't.
QuickLoad database has case volume of the 30 Rem AR as 44.0gr.
Ran some quick calcs on QuickLoad based on edited 30 AR case. 20" bbl, 55k PSI, BL-C2.
Ballpark velocity predictions
130 Ballistic tip - 2650 fps
140 Accubond - 2550 fps
150gr Ballistic tip - 2450 fps.
Ran some quick calcs on QuickLoad based on edited 30 AR case. 20" bbl, 55k PSI, BL-C2.
Ballpark velocity predictions
130 Ballistic tip - 2650 fps
140 Accubond - 2550 fps
150gr Ballistic tip - 2450 fps.
Can you run some scenarios with more allowed PSI? Try using Accurate 2520 powder.
I can do that.
give me:
- max psi
- bullet
- powder
- barrel length
Those numbers are weaker than what the puny and obsolete 300 Savage brings to the table.
Hmmmm, 150grs at 2450.... sounds kinda like a 30/30 to me. Hard to get too riled up about a plastic stocked and homely 30/30 clone.
Ran some quick calculations based on this round compared to about any normal bolt action rifle round and it looks like this:
WEAK AND ANEMIC
- max psi 65,000
- bullet 130gr Hornady SST
- powder Accurate 2520 39gr
- barrel length 20in
Why are guys so horned up about utilizing the AR-15 for heavier duty cartridges? Buy a R-25 in 7-08 and go and wreck schit. I don't get all the fuss.
Looks like 2750-ish fps at 65K psi
Cartridge : .30 Rem AR, edited to .277 bore and bore square area
Bullet : .277, 130, Hornady SST InterLock 27302
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch or 57.40 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch or 508.0 mm
Powder : Accurate 2520
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.703% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-27.0 77 27.00 2031 1191 25234 6501 89.9 1.491
-24.3 80 28.00 2107 1281 27811 6805 91.7 1.433
-21.6 83 29.00 2182 1375 30620 7095 93.3 1.378
-18.9 86 30.00 2258 1472 33675 7367 94.8 1.325
-16.2 89 31.00 2334 1572 37035 7621 96.1 1.274
-13.5 91 32.00 2409 1676 40742 7852 97.2 1.219
-10.8 94 33.00 2485 1782 44836 8059 98.1 1.167
-08.1 97 34.00 2559 1891 49363 8240 98.9 1.117 ! Near Maximum !
-05.4 100 35.00 2634 2003 54376 8393 99.4 1.070 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-02.7 103 36.00 2708 2117 59940 8515 99.8 1.025 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0 106 37.00 2781 2233 66129 8605 100.0 0.983 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.7 109 38.00 2854 2351 73036 8667 100.0 0.942 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.4 111 39.00 2926 2472 80769 8720 100.0 0.904 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.1 114 40.00 2998 2594 89463 8765 100.0 0.867 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.8 117 41.00 3069 2720 99281 8802 100.0 0.832 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+13.5 120 42.00 3141 2848 110430 8829 100.0 0.798 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Why are guys so horned up about utilizing the AR-15 for heavier duty cartridges? Buy a R-25 in 7-08 and go and wreck schit. I don't get all the fuss.
Because thats no fun i can't build it with a 80% lower and all the rest of the fun stuff i enjoy. I want to build it and load it and develop loads for it and hunt with it.
Looks like 2750-ish fps at 65K psi
Cartridge : .30 Rem AR, edited to .277 bore and bore square area
Bullet : .277, 130, Hornady SST InterLock 27302
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch or 57.40 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch or 508.0 mm
Powder : Accurate 2520
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.703% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-27.0 77 27.00 2031 1191 25234 6501 89.9 1.491
-24.3 80 28.00 2107 1281 27811 6805 91.7 1.433
-21.6 83 29.00 2182 1375 30620 7095 93.3 1.378
-18.9 86 30.00 2258 1472 33675 7367 94.8 1.325
-16.2 89 31.00 2334 1572 37035 7621 96.1 1.274
-13.5 91 32.00 2409 1676 40742 7852 97.2 1.219
-10.8 94 33.00 2485 1782 44836 8059 98.1 1.167
-08.1 97 34.00 2559 1891 49363 8240 98.9 1.117 ! Near Maximum !
-05.4 100 35.00 2634 2003 54376 8393 99.4 1.070 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-02.7 103 36.00 2708 2117 59940 8515 99.8 1.025 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0 106 37.00 2781 2233 66129 8605 100.0 0.983 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.7 109 38.00 2854 2351 73036 8667 100.0 0.942 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.4 111 39.00 2926 2472 80769 8720 100.0 0.904 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.1 114 40.00 2998 2594 89463 8765 100.0 0.867 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.8 117 41.00 3069 2720 99281 8802 100.0 0.832 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+13.5 120 42.00 3141 2848 110430 8829 100.0 0.798 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Ok so its all about how much PSI his super bolt can handle. If its in the high 60's then his numbers are completely legit.
Modern bolt action rifles are generally rated at 65k.
With that in mind, do you want to chance it with his "super bolt" at 66k?
Modern bolt action rifles are generally rated at 65k.
With that in mind, do you want to chance it with his "super bolt" at 66k?
65K is about what numbers i have in my chart with a 2775fps for a 130gr.
Every time (and this goes back to the 1930's) a wildcatter dreams up and loads a cartridge that gets much higher velocity than the case capacity says should be possible, the price always has been and always will be excessive pressure.
The old ICL Grizzly made higher velocities than the 300WBY, with a case that was essentially the same. Until someone pressure tested the loads.... OOPS! Back to the old drawing board....
I love wildcatting, built and still hunt with one of my own that I call the 340 Tyrannosaur. But case capacity X and bore area Y and bullet weight Z is always going to get you to exactly the same place unless a new powder has been developed that is more dense and more progressive in its burn than what we have now, and we have a LOT of great powders now! And in this scenario, the other 8 or ten cartridges that look like yours are going to also benefit from that same powder development. My 340 Tyrannosaur gets 100fps more velocity that a 340 WBY not because its case capacity is a tiny bit more, it is because we now have Reloader 25 and IMR 7828SSC that were not even dreamt of when old Roy W breathed life into his big 33. Well, that and Molybdenum Disulfide coatings on my bullets with PTFE treatments in my hand lapped cut rifled barrel. And even all that got me a relatively meager 100-150fps. I am under no illusion that MY 'magic' .338 cartridge is really and truly any more effective than the mighty - and excellent by the way - 340 Weatherby. I love it because it is MINE
Modern bolt action rifles are generally rated at 65k.
With that in mind, do you want to chance it with his "super bolt" at 66k?
65K is about what numbers i have in my chart with a 2775fps for a 130gr.
Here's a hint: stick with factory AR pressures.
It's a free country and you are free to do what you want, including paying for reconstructive surgery after pieces of AR-15 tear through your face. I hear the eyepatch look is in.
"How many people have you killed?"
This is well past the JeffO level of stupid, and he bends the needle on the stupid meter.
No, it is what Limbaugh refers to as "Using absurdity to demonstrate the absurd". The "absurd" being your postulation that having killed a deer(s) had a [bleep] thing to do with the topic being discussed in this thread, which of course, happens to be a special talent your ignorant CA ass has in spades.
TAK..I was in the sandbox with 3rd ID...and as someone claiming you were there...it's absurd you even say something like that [bleep]. What was your MOS again? I can't believe anyone who was actually there talks like that....
I got an answer from the developer over on the 68forum.
60,000PSI max using QL. But the person running QL must know how to set it up. Most people in the AR world think cartridges are loaded to 2.26 while everyone here knows PRI mags allow loading to 2.295 or 2.3" The other thing is QL does not work so well with the 6.8 bore especially with 5R rifling. The engraving force is lower and the bore area is larger. Comparing the 11 twist 4 groove barrels we sold to the 5R barrels we sell the 5R barrels usually run 60-80fps faster, some 90-100fps faster.
I got an answer from the developer over on the 68forum.
60,000PSI max using QL. But the person running QL must know how to set it up. Most people in the AR world think cartridges are loaded to 2.26 while everyone here knows PRI mags allow loading to 2.295 or 2.3" The other thing is QL does not work so well with the 6.8 bore especially with 5R rifling. The engraving force is lower and the bore area is larger. Comparing the 11 twist 4 groove barrels we sold to the 5R barrels we sell the 5R barrels usually run 60-80fps faster, some 90-100fps faster.
If the barrels are running faster with the same loads, it's because they are generating more pressure.
For a guy who trumpets the physics of killing power, you sure seem to ignore the physics of pressure.
I dont understand all the hoopla in this thread, when they become available, chrono a box of factory loads, reload to that velocity and accept the little cartridge for what it is.
200 fps means nothing in the real world, would I like to be hit with a 110 gr TTSX at:
2800 fps.....NO
2600 fps.....NO
2400 fps.....NO
2200 fps.....NO
Gunner
I got an answer from the developer over on the 68forum.
60,000PSI max using QL. But the person running QL must know how to set it up. Most people in the AR world think cartridges are loaded to 2.26 while everyone here knows PRI mags allow loading to 2.295 or 2.3" The other thing is QL does not work so well with the 6.8 bore especially with 5R rifling. The engraving force is lower and the bore area is larger. Comparing the 11 twist 4 groove barrels we sold to the 5R barrels we sell the 5R barrels usually run 60-80fps faster, some 90-100fps faster.
If the barrels are running faster with the same loads, it's because they are generating more pressure.
For a guy who trumpets the physics of killing power, you sure seem to ignore the physics of pressure.
Are you addressing me as if i'm the developer again? Pressure is one part of the equation as so is resistance in the barrel caused by rifling type.
Have you shot the [bleep] thing? No, so STFU. Nice to tell folks about possible upcoming cartridges/changes etc etc. To pronounce said things that don't exist yet as better than, is a foolish endeavor
Facts trump guessing, always will.
I dont understand all the hoopla in this thread, when they become available, chrono a box of factory loads, reload to that velocity and accept the little cartridge for what it is.
200 fps means nothing in the real world, would I like to be hit with a 110 gr TTSX at:
2800 fps.....NO
2600 fps.....NO
2400 fps.....NO
2200 fps.....NO
Gunner
Look up what velocity those Barnes TTSX need to be going before they expand or instead create a pencil hole. Thats why i hope this round works out. I would like to hunt boar with a 120gr Barnes TTSX. I bought a couple of boxes for my grendel then looked at the reloadding guide and saw the velocities and compared them to the required impact velocity for the Barnes TTSX and shelved the boxes. Can't use them in the Grendel. They simply don't go fast enough.
I dont understand all the hoopla in this thread, when they become available, chrono a box of factory loads, reload to that velocity and accept the little cartridge for what it is.
200 fps means nothing in the real world, would I like to be hit with a 110 gr TTSX at:
2800 fps.....NO
2600 fps.....NO
2400 fps.....NO
2200 fps.....NO
Gunner
Look up what velocity those Barnes TTSX need to be going before they expand or instead create a pencil hole. Thats why i hope this round works out. I would like to hunt boar with a 120gr Barnes TTSX. I bought a couple of boxes for my grendel then looked at the reloadding guide and saw the velocities and compared them to the required impact velocity for the Barnes TTSX and shelved the boxes. Can't use them in the Grendel. They simply don't go fast enough.
Ok.
Gunner
I dont understand all the hoopla in this thread, when they become available, chrono a box of factory loads, reload to that velocity and accept the little cartridge for what it is.
200 fps means nothing in the real world, would I like to be hit with a 110 gr TTSX at:
2800 fps.....NO
2600 fps.....NO
2400 fps.....NO
2200 fps.....NO
Gunner
Look up what velocity those Barnes TTSX need to be going before they expand or instead create a pencil hole. Thats why i hope this round works out. I would like to hunt boar with a 120gr Barnes TTSX. I bought a couple of boxes for my grendel then looked at the reloadding guide and saw the velocities and compared them to the required impact velocity for the Barnes TTSX and shelved the boxes. Can't use them in the Grendel. They simply don't go fast enough.
Compelling, so again no first hand experience.
Look up what velocity those Barnes TTSX need to be going before they expand or instead create a pencil hole. Thats why i hope this round works out. I would like to hunt boar with a 120gr Barnes TTSX. I bought a couple of boxes for my grendel then looked at the reloadding guide and saw the velocities and compared them to the required impact velocity for the Barnes TTSX and shelved the boxes. Can't use them in the Grendel. They simply don't go fast enough.
Ok.
Gunner
[/quote]
I'm using 123gr SST rounds for boar know but i like the idea of a copper bullet instead. My son't using Hog Hammer 223 rounds in our 5.56mm carbine that are running the barnes copper.
Gunner
Look up what velocity those Barnes TTSX need to be going before they expand or instead create a pencil hole. Thats why i hope this round works out. I would like to hunt boar with a 120gr Barnes TTSX. I bought a couple of boxes for my grendel then looked at the reloadding guide and saw the velocities and compared them to the required impact velocity for the Barnes TTSX and shelved the boxes. Can't use them in the Grendel. They simply don't go fast enough.
I'm using 123gr SST rounds for boar now but i like the idea of a copper bullet instead. My son't using Hog Hammer 223 rounds in our 5.56mm carbine that are running the barnes copper.
Sorry for that. So you have used the 120 gr TTSX for hunting and killed something with it? Have you used the 110gr TTSX for hunting and killed something with it?
In that case, go and load ALL your questionable 6.8's with 85 gr TSX's, use them for crackheads/HD, go buy yourself an AR-10 in 308W, load the 130 gr TTSX's to 2800 fps and kill the hell outta anything.
Gunner
I got an answer from the developer over on the 68forum.
60,000PSI max using QL. But the person running QL must know how to set it up. Most people in the AR world think cartridges are loaded to 2.26 while everyone here knows PRI mags allow loading to 2.295 or 2.3" The other thing is QL does not work so well with the 6.8 bore especially with 5R rifling. The engraving force is lower and the bore area is larger. Comparing the 11 twist 4 groove barrels we sold to the 5R barrels we sell the 5R barrels usually run 60-80fps faster, some 90-100fps faster.
If the barrels are running faster with the same loads, it's because they are generating more pressure.
For a guy who trumpets the physics of killing power, you sure seem to ignore the physics of pressure.
Are you addressing me as if i'm the developer again? Pressure is one part of the equation as so is resistance in the barrel caused by rifling type.
Pig shooter, we are just trying to educate you so you have realistic expectations regarding what can, and cannot be done with a new wildcat.
We've seen the promises that never materialize, and know the tricks to maximize velocity.
Once you've lengthened the throat, lengthened the barrel, matched the most modern powder to the barrel length/bullet choice, and increased the case capacity, all that's left is to ramp up the pressure.
Since many of us on this forum own custom rifes and chronographs we've been testing what does, and does not work since the 80's. We are familiar with the effects of custom barrels and changes in OAL.
Oh by the way, if you increase OAL, which way does the pressure go?
SCPH, are you in a lead free zone? If not, there is also a 110gr Accubond, that several folks here have used on deer & pigs, out of 6.8's.
SCPH, are you in a lead free zone? If not, there is also a 110gr Accubond, that several folks here have used on deer & pigs, out of 6.8's.
If a bill passes in the house all cali will be a condor zone snd lead free.
I dont understand all the hoopla in this thread, when they become available, chrono a box of factory loads, reload to that velocity and accept the little cartridge for what it is.
200 fps means nothing in the real world, would I like to be hit with a 110 gr TTSX at:
2800 fps.....NO
2600 fps.....NO
2400 fps.....NO
2200 fps.....NO
Gunner
Look up what velocity those Barnes TTSX need to be going before they expand or instead create a pencil hole. Thats why i hope this round works out. I would like to hunt boar with a 120gr Barnes TTSX. I bought a couple of boxes for my grendel then looked at the reloadding guide and saw the velocities and compared them to the required impact velocity for the Barnes TTSX and shelved the boxes. Can't use them in the Grendel. They simply don't go fast enough.
Iv'e tried to back out of this idiocy.
But here you go, what Barnes says they need to be going not to pencil.
Rule of thumb and thats all. I've run a lot of barnes under what they claim impact speed has to be. Every last one has expanded. And I have seen pictures of some run faster than needed that did not...
phuggin computers are great though ain't they.
In that case, go and load ALL your questionable 6.8's with 85 gr TSX's, use them for crackheads/HD, go buy yourself an AR-10 in 308W, load the 130 gr TTSX's to 2800 fps and kill the hell outta anything.
Gunner
BINGO! Winning post, right there. And in 308, we can run them a bit faster than 2800 if we want to.
I dont understand all the hoopla in this thread, when they become available, chrono a box of factory loads, reload to that velocity and accept the little cartridge for what it is.
200 fps means nothing in the real world, would I like to be hit with a 110 gr TTSX at:
2800 fps.....NO
2600 fps.....NO
2400 fps.....NO
2200 fps.....NO
Gunner
Look up what velocity those Barnes TTSX need to be going before they expand or instead create a pencil hole. Thats why i hope this round works out. I would like to hunt boar with a 120gr Barnes TTSX. I bought a couple of boxes for my grendel then looked at the reloadding guide and saw the velocities and compared them to the required impact velocity for the Barnes TTSX and shelved the boxes. Can't use them in the Grendel. They simply don't go fast enough.
Iv'e tried to back out of this idiocy.
But here you go, what Barnes says they need to be going not to pencil.
Rule of thumb and thats all. I've run a lot of barnes under what they claim impact speed has to be. Every last one has expanded. And I have seen pictures of some run faster than needed that did not...
phuggin computers are great though ain't they.
Thanks for your experienced input. That said i'll stick with a manufactures recommendations vs what some anonymous person says on a forum post that can't be validated in anyway.
Thanks for your experienced input. That said i'll stick with a manufactures recommendations vs what some anonymous person says on a forum post that can't be validated in anyway.
Just wanted to point out the irony of this statement in the context of your prvious responses....
Sounds like an interesting cartridge to me.
That said, I'll wait for the dies to hit the RCBS standard list before I consider owning it.
I dont understand all the hoopla in this thread, when they become available, chrono a box of factory loads, reload to that velocity and accept the little cartridge for what it is.
200 fps means nothing in the real world, would I like to be hit with a 110 gr TTSX at:
2800 fps.....NO
2600 fps.....NO
2400 fps.....NO
2200 fps.....NO
Gunner
Look up what velocity those Barnes TTSX need to be going before they expand or instead create a pencil hole. Thats why i hope this round works out. I would like to hunt boar with a 120gr Barnes TTSX. I bought a couple of boxes for my grendel then looked at the reloadding guide and saw the velocities and compared them to the required impact velocity for the Barnes TTSX and shelved the boxes. Can't use them in the Grendel. They simply don't go fast enough.
Iv'e tried to back out of this idiocy.
But here you go, what Barnes says they need to be going not to pencil.
Rule of thumb and thats all. I've run a lot of barnes under what they claim impact speed has to be. Every last one has expanded. And I have seen pictures of some run faster than needed that did not...
phuggin computers are great though ain't they.
Thanks for your experienced input. That said i'll stick with a manufactures recommendations vs what some anonymous person says on a forum post that can't be validated in anyway.
More than welcome to. But I bring real world experience to this conversation, not some computer calculation.
I suspect I may have fired the AR a bit more than most excepting those in combat.
And I've a hair of deer shooting experience since we can shoot from 4 or 5 deer up to however many tags you want to pay for in certain areas.
But by all means go with what you read and calculate.
BTW how are you validating the data the designer is claiming RE this new soon to be out round? Only way you could validate is watch him shoot it or shoot your own over your own chronograph.
Not skeered of wildcats here. At last count I've formed cases for five of them, and have reformed others, when I had a specific reason to do so. Made .22-250's from small primer .308's once, without any special dies. They worked okay, just weren't worth the trouble.
Not skeered of wildcats here. At last count I've formed cases for five of them, and have reformed others, when I had a specific reason to do so. Made .22-250's from small primer .308's once, without any special dies. They worked okay, just weren't worth the trouble.
My list of wildcats is fairly extensive as well, including 22K Hornet, 22 Cheetah Mk 1 and MK ll, 22-250AI, 22/204, 6mmAI, 6/284, 250AI, 7mm Mashburn Super, 300 Belted Newton, 338/8mm RemMag, 348AI and I am sure a few others I am forgetting.
That said, I do NOT try to make or claim that an itty bitty little cartridge is remotely as good as a bigger one, or that it is even sufficient for game that is way above its pay grade.
Who here would have given a second look at a wildcat for a bolt action or lever action rifle that was a 30 Rem or 250 Savage or similar necked down to .277? The collective YAWN such a round would have garnered would be deafening. Yet because this pipsqueak round can be housed in a butt ugly plastic semi automatic rifle that looks sorta like the ones our guys are using in the sandbox, some folks get al giddy about it. Sheesh.....
Useable and interesting velocity's are not reachable ulness one drops down to very low SD bullets and / or plays rifle roulette with nutso pressures.
Just buy a damned hunting rifle, and leave the matchbox rifles for the purposes they are good at (and very good at those, BTW).
BTW how are you validating the data the designer is claiming RE this new soon to be out round? Only way you could validate is watch him shoot it or shoot your own over your own chronograph.
See that's different, because the designer is trying to sell something. No one would ever be led astray by someone trying to sell them something.
Who here would have given a second look at a wildcat for a bolt action or lever action rifle that was a 30 Rem or 250 Savage or similar necked down to .277? The collective YAWN such a round would have garnered would be deafening. Yet because this pipsqueak round can be housed in a butt ugly plastic semi automatic rifle that looks sorta like the ones our guys are using in the sandbox, some folks get al giddy about it. Sheesh.....
Bahahaha. But Mark, with this one you could pretend to be P.O. Ackley and play Navy Seals vs. The Taliban at the same time!
Glad you liked my analogy and drawing out of the comparison and folly.
I like my AR's, but I know what they are and are not. Just like my Harley ain't my pickup truck. When I need to do something big, I get the keys to the pickup and don't try to hitch a trailer to the bike, saying it can do it if I just run the RPMS at 6300 the whole way.
I like my AR's, but I know what they are and are not. Just like my Harley ain't my pickup truck. When I need to do something big, I get the keys to the pickup and don't try to hitch a trailer to the bike, saying it can do it if I just run the RPMS at 6300 the whole way.
That's a very good analogy; I agree.
Personally, when using a semi-auto, I have little interest in one chambered for a wildcat cartridge, and zero interest in one which uses expensive parent brass, due to the brass retrieval issue. It's just too easy to lose brass in a field shooting scenario.
Yeah...'cause what the world needs right now is another cartridge we can't get.
I like my AR's, but I know what they are and are not. Just like my Harley ain't my pickup truck. When I need to do something big, I get the keys to the pickup and don't try to hitch a trailer to the bike, saying it can do it if I just run the RPMS at 6300 the whole way.
That's a very good analogy; I agree.
Personally, when using a semi-auto, I have little interest in one chambered for a wildcat cartridge, and zero interest in one which uses expensive parent brass, due to the brass retrieval issue. It's just too easy to lose brass in a field shooting scenario.
Digging through a 3 foot snowbank for $1.10 a piece (plus time spent forming) brass sounds like lots of FUN.
They sell brass catcher gadgets, too.
I'd still love to pull up beside the feller plinking away with this little anemic prick and wail a 140 TTSX by way of a 7-08 R25 across a 600 yard stretch and biitch slap the gong at the other end.
I wouldn't think a 270 AR would exactly be anemic at 600 yards.
140 AB, 20" bbl, BL-C2, 59K psi, 2600 fps.
Tabular trajectory data at Non-Std. Atmosphere
Gunsite altitude : 4500 ft.
Air density : 0.061325 lb./ft�
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gun / Ammunition : .30 Rem AR, edited to 270 AR
Bullet : .277, 140, Nosler AccuBond 54765
Bullet weight : 140 grains or 9.07 Grams
Muzzle velocity : 2603 fps
Crosswind speed : 10 Mph
Ballistic Coefficient(s) (G1):
C1=0.496@V>0 fps;
Range Velo Time of Energy Path Deflection Total Sight correction Target
city flight to at crosswind drop for setting new lead
LOS of 10.0 Mph zero range 20 fps
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
�Yards fps s ft.lbs. in. in. MOA in. Clicks MOA yds �
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 0 2603 0.0000 2106 -2.0 0.0 ----- 0.0 ------ ----- 0.00
| 100 2463 0.1184 1885 +1.8 0.5 0.52 2.7 -5.1 -1.76 0.79
M 120 2435 0.1425 1843 +2.0 0.7 0.59 3.8 -4.5 -1.56 0.95
X 200 2327 0.2428 1682 0.0 2.2 1.04 11.0 0.0 0.00 1.62
P 246 2266 0.3031 1595 -3.0 3.4 1.34 16.9 +3.4 +1.16 2.02
| 300 2195 0.3761 1498 -8.4 5.3 1.70 25.8 +7.8 +2.67 2.51
| 400 2068 0.5173 1329 -24.0 9.9 2.37 47.9 +16.7 +5.73 3.45
| 500 1945 0.6655 1175 -47.4 15.7 3.00 77.8 +26.3 +9.05 4.44
| 600 1825 0.8238 1035 -79.9 23.3 3.70 116.8 +37.0 +12.72 5.49
I'd still love to pull up beside the feller plinking away with this little anemic prick and wail a 140 TTSX by way of a 7-08 R25 across a 600 yard stretch and biitch slap the gong at the other end.
Ya'd have to wait till I was otu of ammo for my 223 so the gong would quit moving with each hit though. But I'd humor ya at the end of a mag.
yep the louder and bigger you are the badder you are that is a known fact.
Wow another 6.8 caliber AR cartridge...so what. Second if I need more than a 5.56 I will use a bolt gun in one of 3 other calibers I own. I am down to 3 these days... So far 3 pigs and 1 10 point are dead in two years with the 5.56.
Pig shooter, we are just trying to educate you so you have realistic expectations regarding what can, and cannot be done with a new wildcat.
We've seen the promises that never materialize, and know the tricks to maximize velocity.
Once you've lengthened the throat, lengthened the barrel, matched the most modern powder to the barrel length/bullet choice, and increased the case capacity, all that's left is to ramp up the pressure.
Since many of us on this forum own custom rifes and chronographs we've been testing what does, and does not work since the 80's. We are familiar with the effects of custom barrels and changes in OAL.
Oh by the way, if you increase OAL, which way does the pressure go?
You forgot strengthen the bolt.
All to shoot a deer like its a hundred yards closer..
I wouldn't think a 270 AR would exactly be anemic at 600 yards.
140 AB, 20" bbl, BL-C2, 59K psi, 2600 fps.
Tabular trajectory data at Non-Std. Atmosphere
Gunsite altitude : 4500 ft.
Air density : 0.061325 lb./ft�
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gun / Ammunition : .30 Rem AR, edited to 270 AR
Bullet : .277, 140, Nosler AccuBond 54765
Bullet weight : 140 grains or 9.07 Grams
Muzzle velocity : 2603 fps
Crosswind speed : 10 Mph
Ballistic Coefficient(s) (G1):
C1=0.496@V>0 fps;
Range Velo Time of Energy Path Deflection Total Sight correction Target
city flight to at crosswind drop for setting new lead
LOS of 10.0 Mph zero range 20 fps
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
�Yards fps s ft.lbs. in. in. MOA in. Clicks MOA yds �
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 0 2603 0.0000 2106 -2.0 0.0 ----- 0.0 ------ ----- 0.00
| 100 2463 0.1184 1885 +1.8 0.5 0.52 2.7 -5.1 -1.76 0.79
M 120 2435 0.1425 1843 +2.0 0.7 0.59 3.8 -4.5 -1.56 0.95
X 200 2327 0.2428 1682 0.0 2.2 1.04 11.0 0.0 0.00 1.62
P 246 2266 0.3031 1595 -3.0 3.4 1.34 16.9 +3.4 +1.16 2.02
| 300 2195 0.3761 1498 -8.4 5.3 1.70 25.8 +7.8 +2.67 2.51
| 400 2068 0.5173 1329 -24.0 9.9 2.37 47.9 +16.7 +5.73 3.45
| 500 1945 0.6655 1175 -47.4 15.7 3.00 77.8 +26.3 +9.05 4.44
| 600 1825 0.8238 1035 -79.9 23.3 3.70 116.8 +37.0 +12.72 5.49
Are you saying it is or its not?
To some of us it's pretty anemic.
Your 400 yard energy is my 1000 yard energy
Trajectory
Input Data
Manufacturer: Nosler Description: Accubond� Spitzer
Caliber: 0.284 in Weight: 160.0 gr
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.531 G1 (ASM)
Muzzle Velocity: 3475.0 ft/s Distance to Chronograph: 10.0 ft
Sight Height: 1.50 in Sight Offset: 0.00 in
Zero Height: 0.00 in Zero Offset: 0.00 in
Windage: 0.000 MOA Elevation: 0.000 MOA
Line Of Sight Angle: 0.0 deg Cant Angle: 0.0 deg
Wind Speed: 10.0 mph Wind Angle: 90.0 deg
Target Speed: 10.0 mph Target Angle: 90.0 deg
Target Height: 12.0 in
Temperature: 40.2 �F Pressure: 24.64 in Hg
Humidity: 0 % Altitude: 5280.0 ft
Vital Zone Radius: 5.0 in
Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: Yes Pressure is Corrected: Yes
Zero at Max. Point Blank Range: No Target Relative Drops: Yes
Mark Sound Barrier Crossing: No Include Extra Rows: No
Column 1 Units: 1.00 in Column 2 Units: 1.00 MOA
Round Output to Whole Numbers: No
Output Data
Elevation: 2.850 MOA Windage: 0.000 MOA
Atmospheric Density: 0.06534 lb/ft� Speed of Sound: 1096.0 ft/s
Maximum PBR: 426 yd Maximum PBR Zero: 362 yd
Range of Maximum Height: 199 yd Energy at Maximum PBR: 2732.0 ft�lbs
Sectional Density: 0.283 lb/in�
Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft�lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 3481.0 3.176 4304.3 0.000 0.0 ***
100 -0.0 -0.0 0.4 0.4 3303.5 3.014 3876.5 0.088 15.6 14.9
200 -1.7 -0.8 1.6 0.8 3133.5 2.859 3487.8 0.182 32.0 15.3
300 -6.9 -2.2 3.8 1.2 2970.3 2.710 3133.9 0.280 49.3 15.7
400 -16.1 -3.8 6.9 1.6 2813.2 2.567 2811.2 0.384 67.6 16.1
500 -29.7 -5.7 11.0 2.1 2661.8 2.429 2516.7 0.493 86.9 16.6
600 -48.1 -7.7 16.3 2.6 2515.5 2.295 2247.6 0.609 107.3 17.1
700 -72.1 -9.8 22.7 3.1 2373.9 2.166 2001.8 0.732 128.9 17.6
800 -102.3 -12.2 30.4 3.6 2237.0 2.041 1777.5 0.862 151.8 18.1
900 -139.4 -14.8 39.6 4.2 2104.4 1.920 1573.1 1.001 176.1 18.7
1000 -184.3 -17.6 50.3 4.8 1976.4 1.803 1387.6 1.148 202.0 19.3
To some of us it's pretty anemic.
Your 400 yard energy is my 1000 yard energy
Trajectory
Input Data
Manufacturer: Nosler Description: Accubond� Spitzer
Caliber: 0.284 in Weight: 160.0 gr
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.531 G1 (ASM)
Muzzle Velocity: 3475.0 ft/s Distance to Chronograph: 10.0 ft
Sight Height: 1.50 in Sight Offset: 0.00 in
Zero Height: 0.00 in Zero Offset: 0.00 in
Windage: 0.000 MOA Elevation: 0.000 MOA
Line Of Sight Angle: 0.0 deg Cant Angle: 0.0 deg
Wind Speed: 10.0 mph Wind Angle: 90.0 deg
Target Speed: 10.0 mph Target Angle: 90.0 deg
Target Height: 12.0 in
Temperature: 40.2 �F Pressure: 24.64 in Hg
Humidity: 0 % Altitude: 5280.0 ft
Vital Zone Radius: 5.0 in
Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: Yes Pressure is Corrected: Yes
Zero at Max. Point Blank Range: No Target Relative Drops: Yes
Mark Sound Barrier Crossing: No Include Extra Rows: No
Column 1 Units: 1.00 in Column 2 Units: 1.00 MOA
Round Output to Whole Numbers: No
Output Data
Elevation: 2.850 MOA Windage: 0.000 MOA
Atmospheric Density: 0.06534 lb/ft� Speed of Sound: 1096.0 ft/s
Maximum PBR: 426 yd Maximum PBR Zero: 362 yd
Range of Maximum Height: 199 yd Energy at Maximum PBR: 2732.0 ft�lbs
Sectional Density: 0.283 lb/in�
Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft�lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 3481.0 3.176 4304.3 0.000 0.0 ***
100 -0.0 -0.0 0.4 0.4 3303.5 3.014 3876.5 0.088 15.6 14.9
200 -1.7 -0.8 1.6 0.8 3133.5 2.859 3487.8 0.182 32.0 15.3
300 -6.9 -2.2 3.8 1.2 2970.3 2.710 3133.9 0.280 49.3 15.7
400 -16.1 -3.8 6.9 1.6 2813.2 2.567 2811.2 0.384 67.6 16.1
500 -29.7 -5.7 11.0 2.1 2661.8 2.429 2516.7 0.493 86.9 16.6
600 -48.1 -7.7 16.3 2.6 2515.5 2.295 2247.6 0.609 107.3 17.1
700 -72.1 -9.8 22.7 3.1 2373.9 2.166 2001.8 0.732 128.9 17.6
800 -102.3 -12.2 30.4 3.6 2237.0 2.041 1777.5 0.862 151.8 18.1
900 -139.4 -14.8 39.6 4.2 2104.4 1.920 1573.1 1.001 176.1 18.7
1000 -184.3 -17.6 50.3 4.8 1976.4 1.803 1387.6 1.148 202.0 19.3
We shall see i'm hoping his measurements are on target
I wouldn't think a 270 AR would exactly be anemic at 600 yards.
140 AB, 20" bbl, BL-C2, 59K psi, 2600 fps.
Tabular trajectory data at Non-Std. Atmosphere
Gunsite altitude : 4500 ft.
Air density : 0.061325 lb./ft�
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gun / Ammunition : .30 Rem AR, edited to 270 AR
Bullet : .277, 140, Nosler AccuBond 54765
Bullet weight : 140 grains or 9.07 Grams
Muzzle velocity : 2603 fps
Crosswind speed : 10 Mph
Ballistic Coefficient(s) (G1):
C1=0.496@V>0 fps;
Range Velo Time of Energy Path Deflection Total Sight correction Target
city flight to at crosswind drop for setting new lead
LOS of 10.0 Mph zero range 20 fps
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
�Yards fps s ft.lbs. in. in. MOA in. Clicks MOA yds �
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 0 2603 0.0000 2106 -2.0 0.0 ----- 0.0 ------ ----- 0.00
| 100 2463 0.1184 1885 +1.8 0.5 0.52 2.7 -5.1 -1.76 0.79
M 120 2435 0.1425 1843 +2.0 0.7 0.59 3.8 -4.5 -1.56 0.95
X 200 2327 0.2428 1682 0.0 2.2 1.04 11.0 0.0 0.00 1.62
P 246 2266 0.3031 1595 -3.0 3.4 1.34 16.9 +3.4 +1.16 2.02
| 300 2195 0.3761 1498 -8.4 5.3 1.70 25.8 +7.8 +2.67 2.51
| 400 2068 0.5173 1329 -24.0 9.9 2.37 47.9 +16.7 +5.73 3.45
| 500 1945 0.6655 1175 -47.4 15.7 3.00 77.8 +26.3 +9.05 4.44
| 600 1825 0.8238 1035 -79.9 23.3 3.70 116.8 +37.0 +12.72 5.49
Are you saying it is or its not?
I'm saying it looks like it should be able to deliver very useful terminal ballistics at 600, from a 20" bbl, without red-lining pressure.
I wouldn't think a 270 AR would exactly be anemic at 600 yards.
140 AB, 20" bbl, BL-C2, 59K psi, 2600 fps.
Tabular trajectory data at Non-Std. Atmosphere
Gunsite altitude : 4500 ft.
Air density : 0.061325 lb./ft�
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gun / Ammunition : .30 Rem AR, edited to 270 AR
Bullet : .277, 140, Nosler AccuBond 54765
Bullet weight : 140 grains or 9.07 Grams
Muzzle velocity : 2603 fps
Crosswind speed : 10 Mph
Ballistic Coefficient(s) (G1):
C1=0.496@V>0 fps;
Range Velo Time of Energy Path Deflection Total Sight correction Target
city flight to at crosswind drop for setting new lead
LOS of 10.0 Mph zero range 20 fps
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
�Yards fps s ft.lbs. in. in. MOA in. Clicks MOA yds �
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 0 2603 0.0000 2106 -2.0 0.0 ----- 0.0 ------ ----- 0.00
| 100 2463 0.1184 1885 +1.8 0.5 0.52 2.7 -5.1 -1.76 0.79
M 120 2435 0.1425 1843 +2.0 0.7 0.59 3.8 -4.5 -1.56 0.95
X 200 2327 0.2428 1682 0.0 2.2 1.04 11.0 0.0 0.00 1.62
P 246 2266 0.3031 1595 -3.0 3.4 1.34 16.9 +3.4 +1.16 2.02
| 300 2195 0.3761 1498 -8.4 5.3 1.70 25.8 +7.8 +2.67 2.51
| 400 2068 0.5173 1329 -24.0 9.9 2.37 47.9 +16.7 +5.73 3.45
| 500 1945 0.6655 1175 -47.4 15.7 3.00 77.8 +26.3 +9.05 4.44
| 600 1825 0.8238 1035 -79.9 23.3 3.70 116.8 +37.0 +12.72 5.49
Are you saying it is or its not?
I'm saying it looks like it should be able to deliver very useful terminal ballistics at 600, from a 20" bbl, without red-lining pressure.
If his barrels are faster than QL predicts? Can you in put COL and barrel threading? I need to get a copy of this software!!
Actually, it does look pretty interesting, especially with all the .277 stuff I already have.
As someone else already mentioned, I would be more inclined toward the 110gr NAB's and see what I could do those at reasonable pressures.
I'd still love to pull up beside the feller plinking away with this little anemic prick and wail a 140 TTSX by way of a 7-08 R25 across a 600 yard stretch and biitch slap the gong at the other end.
Ya'd have to wait till I was otu of ammo for my 223 so the gong would quit moving with each hit though. But I'd humor ya at the end of a mag.
Never once said the 223 couldn't get schit done. My point was if you want more stomp than a 22 CF can deliver, bump up to a 6mm/7mm and leave the bastard child 27AR on the shelf to collect dust.
In the QL calcs, pushing up from 60K to 65K only seems to net about 50 fps at the muzzle. That difference only shrinks downrange.
Don't get too tied to the QL calcs anyway. They are only predictions. with all the variables out there, they are only ballpark predictors.
Its kind of curious the number of people pretending to not be interested in the 270AR but can't stop commenting on this thread. Also the evenings seem to be more productive when the slacker trolls aren't on here. I think theirs a group of trolls paid to disrupt threads discussing the topic of hunting with AR's. the same group have many different names on multiple forums.
Who's going to make the ammo every company around just wants to make 308 (7.62) and 223 (5.56) sounds cool but its hard to believe there will be a reliable source of ammo tell all the [bleep] blows over on the political field
That's just it. Rem introduced the 30 AR not so long ago, it seems to be stillborn.
That's just it. Rem introduced the 30 AR not so long ago, it seems to be stillborn.
They are back in stock and still produced unlike the internet forums rumors saying they stopped production. You can get one right now for 1030.
Looks like a 30ar necked down to 270.
Who's going to make the ammo every company around just wants to make 308 (7.62) and 223 (5.56) sounds cool but its hard to believe there will be a reliable source of ammo tell all the [bleep] blows over on the political field
You have to load your own no ones going to make ammo. That's understood going in. This isn't for the walmart crowd.
Its kind of curious the number of people pretending to not be interested in the 270AR but can't stop commenting on this thread. Also the evenings seem to be more productive when the slacker trolls aren't on here. I think theirs a group of trolls paid to disrupt threads discussing the topic of hunting with AR's. the same group have many different names on multiple forums.
Now this is just FASCINATING! I guy who joined all of 33 days ago and has 118 posts, calling some of us trolls. Wow, I only have one name, and only belong to this forum as it relates to firearms. Also an infrequent poster at the Harley Sporster XL forum, but that is it. No computer nerd here.
Just pointing out some rather obvious absurdities. And as I stated I LOVE wildcats and AR's. Have had more than a few of both and hope to have more of both. fast twist 22/6mmAI is calling my name... As is a 264STW
Its kind of curious the number of people pretending to not be interested in the 270AR but can't stop commenting on this thread. Also the evenings seem to be more productive when the slacker trolls aren't on here. I think theirs a group of trolls paid to disrupt threads discussing the topic of hunting with AR's. the same group have many different names on multiple forums.
Now this is just FASCINATING! I guy who joined all of 33 days ago and has 118 posts, calling some of us trolls. Wow, I only have one name, and only belong to this forum as it relates to firearms. Also an infrequent poster at the Harley Sporster XL forum, but that is it. No computer nerd here.
Just pointing out some rather obvious absurdities. And as I stated I LOVE wildcats and AR's. Have had more than a few of both and hope to have more of both. fast twist 22/6mmAI is calling my name... As is a 264STW
I didn't mention you feeling guilty?
If his barrels are faster than QL predicts? Can you in put COL and barrel threading? I need to get a copy of this software!!
Are you talking about TWIST rate.....? All through this (initially) interesting thread you've from time to time used some just flat out STRANGE terms. Let them ride, ARE you talking about twist rate ?
If not, what EARTHLY effect would shank thread specs have on pressures ?
FIW,.....You're getting a little off the wall with your "Troll" allegations, Bud.
....clean up yer' act, please.
GTC
Ballistics are controlled by physics and are pretty predictable as long as you know the barrel velocity, grain size and BC of the bullet you know its flight path in perfect conditions of course.
Is that supposed to mean MUZZLE VELOCITY ?
No offense, Bud,....is English your first language ?
"grain size" v WEIGHT ?
Your whole rap is stilted and studded with odd, and somewhat unusual vernacular.
GOOD GRIEF,......tell me you're not Vladimir Putin just [bleep]' around on the net between hunting trips.
GTC
Ballistics are controlled by physics and are pretty predictable as long as you know the barrel velocity, grain size and BC of the bullet you know its flight path in perfect conditions of course.
Is that supposed to mean MUZZLE VELOCITY ?
No offense, Bud,....is English your first language ?
"grain size" v WEIGHT ?
Your whole rap is stilted and studded with odd, and somewhat unusual vernacular.
GOOD GRIEF,......tell me you're not Vladimir Putin just [bleep]' around on the net between hunting trips.
GTC
Maybe he is referring to the velocity of the barrel when it blows off of the receiver and heads downrange after too many loads running pressures well above the 60K upper limit for us mere mortals. I suspect that such a barrel might be movin pretty quickly. With the right shank threads, perhaps the barrel can become a reasonably accurate projectile. NOW we have an interesting rifle concept!
SanCalPighunter,
I hope this funning and dissecting of a cartridge (and your language skills and terminology just a little) is not getting you too riled up. We do this to each other rather regularly, just like in a real hunting camp around the evening fires. I was on the brunt end of this when I first joined and posted pictures of a cape buffalo that I stated I had shot in a year that was yet to come! JJHack was the most brutal, and he is now among my closest friends in the whole world. Then there was my 'new' wildcat 22/204 that was not enough different from a 22 RemMag to really matter. See my signature line, this stuff is not worth getting any emotional ties wrapped up in.
And I am remiss in not having wished you a hearty
WELCOME TO 24 HOUR CAMPFIRE!
Hang around, post in some other forums and enjoy your stay.
MARK
PS I was born in Escondido, CA and lived for a while in the LA Basin then Northern California foothill cities like Auburn and surrounding. Hunted and shot lots of pigs and blacktailed deer in California before I escaped in 1993 into free America.
PS I was born in Escondido, CA and lived for a while in the LA Basin then Northern California foothill cities like Auburn and surrounding. Hunted and shot lots of pigs and blacktailed deer in California before I escaped in 1993 into free America.
We have a local San Diego pig population now but they are a real bitch to hunt. All up in the canyons and brush.
Ah yes, I spent many a miserable and dicey hour crawling through pig tunnels in the Manzanita and other nearly impenetrable brush. And usually in nasty heat, too. Always wanted a Ruger 44 Magnum Carbine for that duty but did not get one till I moved up here where they are about as useful as teets on a boarpig.
If the shoe size is correct? Greg has a point, the terms you use from time to time, indicate you certainly may not know NEAR as much as you THINK you know.
But Mark is right, welcome to the fire, we hash lots of things out here.
But as I"ve always said about accuracy, a chrono providing SD and ES does not always tell you what the most accurate load will be. Only holes in paper/animals answer questions.
The rest is all simply theory. Very possibly educated theory, but theory none the less.
yes Welcome and also "your gun sucks and your holding it wrong".
I still wonder why the 30 AR hasn't been more popular; it gets 300 Savage ballistics, and still fits in an AR15.
and yeah, necking it to .277 or .284 would be pretty interesting, as well.
Cute,....
but not really an answer to my questions, is it ?
And IF you can get worked up to the point where you're calling twist rate "Threading", you need to maybe relax just a bit, and quit trying to impress everybody so hard.
"Barrel Velocity (muzzle velocity ?)",......we'll just wait and wonder, on that one.
.......I've been involved with a ".450 Bushmaster" project, at and to some depth. That fat rebated rimmed abortion of a case is a cobbled up (most commonly unavailable)joke, looking for guns to blow up. The AR guys had to go to some sorta' unobtanium bolt for THAT cartridge, too.
Welcome, just knock off your finger pointing "Troll" chit muy pronto, would be my best advice
GTC
It's pretty clear he doesn't know what he's talking about. Any knowledge or factual evidence he has presented has been reprinted info from the designer.
I was following the thread with some interest initially. When you've been studiously pursuing the Accuracy /Velocity Muse, and dealt with pressure demons along the way for over 50 years, obviously a post like this is going to garner your attention. I've killed a LOT of game animals with the .270, and NEVER with a factory load.
At this point I'm wondering WTF the POINT of this post is, other than to start a new member off on the completely WRONG foot.
Hey,....[bleep] this "Troll Accusations" bit, and the lame horse it draggled in on.
GTC
I still wonder why the 30 AR hasn't been more popular; it gets 300 Savage ballistics, and still fits in an AR15.
and yeah, necking it to .277 or .284 would be pretty interesting, as well.
I still wonder why the 30 AR hasn't been more popular; it gets 300 Savage ballistics, and still fits in an AR15.
and yeah, necking it to .277 or .284 would be pretty interesting, as well.
I agree theres been a lot fud past around forums like this about the rifle including that its no longer made. They are on shelves right now actually. For me its a build issue. If i cant build it im not interested.
probably because in 30 cal the 7.62x39 is there to fill that bill, cheap (er) ammo etc....
I generally find that its nuts like myself that like the oddball calibers etc... not run of the mill folks.
And ammo has to be available as I always forget probably 90% of AR shooters do not reload.
I am very much so in the role your own crowd but the whole idea that this will eclipse the 6.8 the 300 black out or the Grendel ( lbc) is very small.
That would be assemble, not build. Unless you are getting barrel blanks, ordering a reamer, threading the barrel and installing the extension, drilling the gas port and reaming the chamber.
We have what are called "build" parties out here in cali where we "build" lowers in CNC machines. 2 of my 3 AR's i finished in a CNC machine from a 80% lower. We generally refer to assembling a rifle as building it.
Cool that you CNC that is actually doing some building work
The rest has always been assembling parts. Nothing more.
Cool that you CNC that is actually doing some building work
The rest has always been assembling parts. Nothing more.
Well its actually pretty easy. The shop charges a CNC rental and the rest is pretty simple. The local machine shop i use charges a 50 dollar fee to rent there CNC machine.
!0 rounds of a cartridge that almost rivals what I used to shoot in a Wichita Silhouette Pistol is not much of an incentive. Sounds just like another underpowered cartridge looking for an audience. But that's just me.
I'm a grendel fan as well and own two but for hunting there really isn't a comparison. The 270AR handily beats it.
That's like saying a 30-06 is a much better killer than a 308. The guy who says this is either clueless and inexperienced at actual killing, or trying to sell something.
Well, since you brought it up (in no particular context) I'll bite. If your intended quarry requires 200+ grain bullets, then the venerable 06 has a marked advantage. But then WTF does Col Cooper know anyway? I guess he was a 308 "hater" wasn't he?
I spent a bit of time this year walking around on 6.8 brass that an oil-sheik paid for. Not at all impressed with the cartridge. The Grendel launches a great projectile...pathetically slow.
The WSSM's have brass consistency/availability issues. I for one am glad someone is trying to finally produce a single-stack round that'll launch a 6mm (ideal, IMO) or larger bullet as close as possible to 3000fps out of a 20in barrel. I thank the gentleman for posting about it.
Rancho GFY.
Sadly, right now all brass has an availability problem, but as for the inconsistency in .243 WSSM brass, it ain't so. Some criticized the fact that it has thick necks that are inconsistent, yet in loading around 1K of my brass horde I found neck thickness to average .0007" with the max being .0015" by measurement. I tried neck turning and annealing but gave up as it produced no discernible advantage. Winchester's brass is about as good as it gets for any brass - including overrated Lapua - right out of the bag.
Back in 1964-65 the AR-15/M-16 was chosen over the AR-10 to allow a larger quantity of lighter ammunition to be carried into battle. I recall reading one critique where the bullets were found sticking in the pad of built up paper targets at 200 meters on military ranges. Yet I have seen it dispatch young feral pigs with a premium hunting bullet at ranges no greater than 150 yards - tasty. Of course you are reading comments from a guy that just built a custom bolt action upper with no gas system in .204 Ruger with a 24" Hart 1:9' twist barrel. The barrel has no gas port. So take everything I say with the appropriate grain of salt, because I'm a varmint hunter so deer get a free pass.
I dont understand all the hoopla in this thread, when they become available, chrono a box of factory loads, reload to that velocity and accept the little cartridge for what it is.
200 fps means nothing in the real world, would I like to be hit with a 110 gr TTSX at:
2800 fps.....NO
2600 fps.....NO
2400 fps.....NO
2200 fps.....NO
Gunner
Thats why i hope this round works out. I would like to hunt boar with a 120gr Barnes TTSX. I bought a couple of boxes for my grendel then looked at the reloadding guide and saw the velocities and compared them to the required impact velocity for the Barnes TTSX and shelved the boxes. Can't use them in the Grendel. They simply don't go fast enough.
Now there's something I do know a little about. Loaded up some Barns .257" 80 grain TTSX bullets in my .257 Roberts Ackley custom Remington 700, because of California's lead free zone. I expected they would punch a hole clear through a ground squirrel, but just the hydrostatic shock should do the job. My load drove these little bullets at 3,578 fps over the Oehler 35P. Here's the first hit at fairly close range about 50 yards:
![[Linked Image]](http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/Squirrel1.jpg)
More followed at between 150 and 200 yards, here's three in row:
![[Linked Image]](http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/Squirrel2.jpg)
The one pointed to in the photo above was about the smallest squirrel I ever hit at that range, his body was no longer than 4", not much resistence but a good splat anyway:
![[Linked Image]](http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/Squirrel4.jpg)
Good little bullet. Here's a 10 shot 100 yard group that shows I'm good for 8 out of 10 shots. That diamond is .5" on a side:
![[Linked Image]](http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/257Roberts80Barnes.jpg)
Wrote a note to Barnes and they said looks like the TTSX was opening earlier than they believed. If you can get it out of the muzzle at something around 3,200 fps it ought to do deer quite well, but they always shoot through after messing up a lot of tissue.
John, thanks for the first hand photographic evidence.
Nice prarie paintjob.
!0 rounds of a cartridge that almost rivals what I used to shoot in a Wichita Silhouette Pistol is not much of an incentive. Sounds just like another underpowered cartridge looking for an audience. But that's just me.
The 7mm IHMSA?
A shortened & necked .300 Savage? I was just thinking about that...
PH, great job showing your ignorance.
The 7mm IMHSA been around the competition circuts for about 30 years.
When introduced to something new, a respectful question will go alot further then a patranizing bunny pic.
!0 rounds of a cartridge that almost rivals what I used to shoot in a Wichita Silhouette Pistol is not much of an incentive. Sounds just like another underpowered cartridge looking for an audience. But that's just me.
A five-pound scoped upper that I can swap out in less than a minute on the AR shorty I'm holding that gives me 600yd "dick in the dirt//DRT" capability sounds like quite an incentive to me, but that's just me. A "Jovian thunderbolt" that'll fit in a racqetball case.
Hey, show some goddam respect.
The guy knows how to press a START button, and snap lego together.
GTC
You guys got no sense of humor. Wow wound up like a bunch of angry liberals.
![[Linked Image]](http://images.sodahead.com/profiles/0/0/2/4/1/7/1/2/3/angry-liberals-74704763192.jpeg)
Just a little explanation about this. SoCal kind of jumped the gun on this thing. He was new to 68forums got excited when he saw this but he didn't know how I do things. First off this 270AR is a wildcat, it will never be submitted to SAAMI and no factory will ever load ammo for it. It will never be advertised and it's only avail as a special project offer to 68forums members just like the 6 and 6.5 BRX's were. 55 barrels were made and are being Melonite treated now.
The object was to be able to use 130gr 277 bullets in an AR15 at a decent velocity for hunting. The 6.8 can't push 130s fast enough to get reliable expansion at longer hunting ranges 3-400yds. Some are using 130 and 140 Bergers in their 6.8 but only pushing them to 24-2500fps. One 130 Berger has a BC of .496, it will not work in the 6.8 because part of the ogive is back in the case mouth even when loaded to 2.3". The 270AR case is a little shorter than the 6.8 case so bullets with longer ogives can be used. When 6.5Creedmoor brass is used the capacity is 45.4 gr, Lapua 6.5x47 brass apx 44.7gr. The 30 Remington AR has a cap of 44gr. The problem with the RAR is it has a .492 rim not the standard .473 and it took Remington 3 years to get brass to the market.
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The BRXs when using Lapua brass has a cap of 42gr, I knew I could get a little more vel by using a longer case and still use 130gr bullets and no fireforming is needed like on the BRXs. The 6.5 BRX will push 123gr bullets to 2750-2800max out of a 20" barrel. The 6 BRX will push 95gr SMKs to 3200fps out of the 22" Krieger. The 270AR will push 130 Bergers to 2800fps max with 36gr 8208 out of a 20" barrrel. That is the max load with that powder. I have not tested all powder in the range. CFE will not hit 2800 but others like N530 or N540 may. I always push to find the max first then back down in .5 gr increments until I find the accuracy I want, usually 1/2MOA. That way I end up with the fastest accurate load.
I designed the 800 series bolts in 2009 and have been shooting a 6BRX since. During testing I pushed it hard enough to turn the Lapua case into belted magnums. Well over 60k. The bolt still hasn't broken.
The .800 series bolts are .800 in dia where a AR15 bolt is .750. The lugs at the root are wider than a AR10 bolt and they are made from 9310 where AR10 bolts are 8620. During the destruction lab test in 2009 the Armalite AR10 bolt broke before the 800 series did. The bottom lugs are clearanced because they stick down further than a AR15 bolt. If there wasn't .025" taken off the tips they would catch the 30 degree shoulder on the cartridge in the mag. Where the root of the lug attaches to the body of the bolt is where the strength is not out on the tip. The reason it is mentioned is so anyone seeing the flat spot on those 2 lugs may understand why it is there.
277? The company that does the deep hole drilling is running 3 shifts around the clock drilling 5.56 and 6.8 barrels. They do not want to stop and retool to drill 6.5 or 308 barrels. I've been waiting over a year for 300 264LBC barrels. All manufactures are running at max capacity with most having 18 month waits. I have production spots in line and can get 5.56 and 6.8 barrels in 4 months. The 277 bullets have better BC than the 308 or 7mms until the 7mm gets up to 160gr which is too heavy for a case this size. Same with the 308s by the time you get to a decent BC they are too heavy. The 155s ogives are too long so the case would need to be very short reducing case capacity and velocity. All in all this .277 will work in a AR and give those that want to shoot 130s the vehicle to do it.
It will push a 120gr to apx the same velocity as a 25 WSSM factory load out of the same length barrel. The problem with a wssm in an AR15 is a special receiver, carrier, extension, barrel and bolt must be used and a .550 dia case in a .980 dia barrel makes a very thin chamber wall. A .215" thick wall around a cartridge making 65000psi.
200 fps gains me............what? More recoil/noise for my 8 year old son, great!
I understand that everyone has a different application for their hunting ARs. I'm not generally using mine (for deer) past 300, and that's not frequent. The 6.8 does the job with no fuss.
I'm good.......
George
Good advice!
I hunt in the woods, will it kill a deer at 100 yards which is 25 yards further then I've ever killed one of the 30 or so deer I've killed.
Mike
the old 270 Savage from the P.O. Ackley days...
nothing new here...
SanCal, how many deer have you killed?
How many have you killed RL? Hell, while we're at it, how many PEOPLE have you killed?
This bears repeating. Only a mofo as dumb as locoweed could be silly enough to think that the number of deer a poster has killed (of unknown size) would be, in any way, applicable to the discussion on a new cartridges' ballistics. What a simpleton. Be advised montanans, this dumbass might build a YOUR house next.
You were pretty far in the bottle with that one.. Good job!
You guys got no sense of humor.
Wow wound up like a bunch of angry liberals. New here, aren't you...well have fun making new friends.
ps, and for what it is worth, cross' word is good.
Now YOU can stay, we could do with more posts from you.
FWIW an ogive inside the case neck is no big deal, UNLESS you can't get enough bullet and tension to hold it in place in the neck.
A bit OT but thought I"d toss that out there.
There are a few of us running 75 amax in 223 at 2.250 mag length... doesn't look right, but I"ve shot some snug groups, order of 1 inch give or take at 300 yards with such loaded...out of an AR.
What some of the curmudgeons are missing, is a round like this shouldn't be compared to your favorite bolt action round and dismissed as nothing new. It should be considered for the platform in which it is intended.
Kind of like comparing a 302 Ford to a 460, which wouldn't mean shyt if you're intending to slap it in a 4000lb truck. However, that 302 suddenly looks real good when the platform you're discussing is a 2800lb mustang, and the 460 won't fit without heavy modification and turning that nimble pony into a front heavy plow.
This 270AR is pushing the envelope of an unmodified AR-15. That is where it is of interest to those who are interested in getting everything out of an AR that they can. As Constructor said, it's just a wildcat, but wildcats are cool, especially when they are viewed within the constraints of the platform for which they are intended.
As Constructor said, it's just a wildcat, but wildcats are cool.
That they are, and free information from the fellow doing the work is always interesting.
270 Titus ballistics don't work on deer.
![[Linked Image]](http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z371/Weather223/deerhunt2013014_zps4beb3334.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z371/Weather223/DSC_0031.jpg)
yes Welcome and also "your gun sucks and your holding it wrong".
Jimmy P ,
if we would all just copy and paste that one, we could speed up about half of the threads on the Campfire. Thanks for the help!
and Thanks for the laugh!
Sycamore
SanCal, how many deer have you killed?
How many have you killed RL? Hell, while we're at it, how many PEOPLE have you killed?
This bears repeating. Only a mofo as dumb as locoweed could be silly enough to think that the number of deer a poster has killed (of unknown size) would be, in any way, applicable to the discussion on a new cartridges' ballistics. What a simpleton. Be advised montanans, this dumbass might build a YOUR house next.
This bears repeating. Only a mofo as dumb as TAK could be silly enough to think that the number of people a poster has killed (of any size) would be, in any way, applicable to any reasonable discussion on the Fire. What a simpleton.
SanCal, how many deer have you killed?
How many have you killed RL? Hell, while we're at it, how many PEOPLE have you killed?
This bears repeating. Only a mofo as dumb as locoweed could be silly enough to think that the number of deer a poster has killed (of unknown size) would be, in any way, applicable to the discussion on a new cartridges' ballistics. What a simpleton. Be advised montanans, this dumbass might build a YOUR house next.
This bears repeating. Only a mofo as dumb as TAK could be silly enough to think that the number of people a poster has killed (of any size) would be, in any way, applicable to any reasonable discussion on the Fire. What a simpleton.
Of COURSE it doesn't dumbazz, that is the entire point. Limbaugh's "Demonstrating absurdity by being absurd" is the teaching point, at least for those who can find their own azz with both hands. You are a "trained observer" huh?
As Constructor said, it's just a wildcat, but wildcats are cool.
That they are, and free information from the fellow doing the work is always interesting.
WRONG, everybody is supposed to take their lead from [bleep] like Headjob and Locoweed, and be a RUDE mofo and type all sorts of inane, impertinent [bleep] when he shows up.
You know you're stupid when you wish your AR was a .270.
Travis
This 270AR is pushing the envelope of an unmodified AR-15. That is where it is of interest to those who are interested in getting everything out of an AR that they can. As Constructor said, it's just a wildcat, but wildcats are cool, especially when they are viewed within the constraints of the platform for which they are intended.
Its not an unmodified AR15 either though...
The .800 series bolts are .800 in dia where a AR15 bolt is .750. The lugs at the root are wider than a AR10 bolt and they are made from 9310 where AR10 bolts are 8620. During the destruction lab test in 2009 the Armalite AR10 bolt broke before the 800 series did. The bottom lugs are clearanced because they stick down further than a AR15 bolt. If there wasn't .025" taken off the tips they would catch the 30 degree shoulder on the cartridge in the mag. Where the root of the lug attaches to the body of the bolt is where the strength is not out on the tip. The reason it is mentioned is so anyone seeing the flat spot on those 2 lugs may understand why it is there.
Its not an unmodified AR15 either though...
The .800 series bolts are .800 in dia where a AR15 bolt is .750. The lugs at the root are wider than a AR10 bolt and they are made from 9310 where AR10 bolts are 8620. During the destruction lab test in 2009 the Armalite AR10 bolt broke before the 800 series did. The bottom lugs are clearanced because they stick down further than a AR15 bolt. If there wasn't .025" taken off the tips they would catch the 30 degree shoulder on the cartridge in the mag. Where the root of the lug attaches to the body of the bolt is where the strength is not out on the tip. The reason it is mentioned is so anyone seeing the flat spot on those 2 lugs may understand why it is there.
Sure it is, only the bolt/barrel is different. It doesn't require a modified upper receiver like the .30 Rem AR or .458 SOCOM.
Instead, like the Grendel, 6.8spc, 7.62x40, .204Ruger, .300blk etc., you can just swap the barrel and/or bolt and have a completely different round using the same upper and lower receivers as a .223/5.56.
Sure it is, only the bolt/barrel is different. It doesn't require a modified upper receiver like the .30 Rem AR or .458 SOCOM.
Instead, like the Grendel, 6.8spc, 7.62x40, .204Ruger, .300blk etc., you can just swap the barrel and/or bolt and have a completely different round using the same upper and lower receivers as a .223/5.56.
Why on God's green earth would you trade a .223 for any of that crap?
Suppressed crowd excluded of course...
Travis
Sure it is, only the bolt/barrel is different. It doesn't require a modified upper receiver like the .30 Rem AR or .458 SOCOM.
Instead, like the Grendel, 6.8spc, 7.62x40, .204Ruger, .300blk etc., you can just swap the barrel and/or bolt and have a completely different round using the same upper and lower receivers as a .223/5.56.
Why on God's green earth would you trade a .223 for any of that crap?
Suppressed crowd excluded of course...
Travis
6.8 has become the hog rifle of choice in states with large hog populations.
And yeah, if you want to use a suppressor, .223 borders on worthless...... 6.8 or .300 Fireball/Blackout are your tools.
Those hogs must be tough little critters.
Travis
Those hogs must be tough little critters.
Travis
200-250lb is common. There is a big difference in how quick the hogs go down between a 5.56 and the 6.8. Many southern states consider them a nuisance, no limit, open season year around. When he guys are hunting hogs at night with night vision and thermal they want to hogs to drop quick. They use ARs because they can take a quick followup shot or shoot several hogs.
I can see a .223 being a little weak on a critter THAT big.
Travis
Someone should find that pic of the 3 hogs Ltpowell lined up and poleaxed with a single TSX...
I reckon they would have been
more deader with a 270 AR SPR
270 Titus ballistics don't work on deer.
Beautiful rifle fireball!!
Who did your stock?
Mike
Someone should find that pic of the 3 hogs Ltpowell lined up and poleaxed with a single TSX...
I reckon they would have been
more deader with a 270 AR SPR
Woman died from a single BB to the heart a few years ago. No need for 9mm or 5.56, we should arm our infantry with .17 caliber Crossman pellet guns.
I've killed hundreds of hogs with .223's, .44 mags, 30-06, .270win, 7mm-08 and 6.8spc.
They all kill them, just some work a little better when one isn't hanging their experience on internet tales and anecdotal 2nd hand evidence.
Most hog hunting in Florida is on the edge of palmettos and cypress heads. If you don't drop them right the $%#^ now, you likely won't find them until the buzzards bird dog em 2 days later.
Someone should find that pic of the 3 hogs Ltpowell lined up and poleaxed with a single TSX...
I reckon they would have been
more deader with a 270 AR SPR
Woman died from a single BB to the heart a few years ago. No need for 9mm or 5.56, we should arm our infantry with .17 caliber Crossman pellet guns.
I've killed hundreds of hogs with .223's, .44 mags, 30-06, .270win, 7mm-08 and 6.8spc.
They all kill them, just some work a little better when one isn't hanging their experience on internet tales and anecdotal 2nd hand evidence.
Most hog hunting in Florida is on the edge of palmettos and cypress heads. If you don't drop them right the $%#^ now, you likely won't find them until the buzzards bird dog em 2 days later.
Have hunted same areas IE swamps for deer and pigs more than a few times. With the AR in 223. Never had an issue. You shoot, go find the blood trail and follow it.
I have no clue why folks make a big deal of it.
If I want em DRT I don't rely on trying larger calibers, I just CNS them.
I know you love the .223, Rost.
You hunt with the cartridge of your choice and I'll hunt with mine.
Yeah, but neither of us has the definitive answer.
I've actually probably killed as many with Ruger MK1 22LR pistol as with the AR in 223....I"ve shot a few with 6mm WOA in the AR.
Bought a 50 beowulf for DRT. Have yet to do a DRT with that big round. Especially with pigs.
Hence choose a good bullet, put it where it needs to be is more important than caliber choice for many instances.
I killed a 100lb sow this past 4th of July night with a .223 FMJ, in shorts and top siders, in my back yard. Damn sow had been tearing up my yard at night for several days.
Anything will die with proper bullet placement. It all comes down to the tool you feel most confidant in using.
55gr FMJ, as long as its haulin' azz, works quite well, it'll most likely break at the cannelure and the top half will fragment. It just won't work reliably past 200yd or closer with a shorter barrel.
270 Titus ballistics don't work on deer.
Beautiful rifle fireball!!
Who did your stock?
Mike
I bought the rifle a few years ago from the man that consigned it's build about 20 years ago, so I don't know the builders name. I have some specifics on the gun, but not all and no information on the stock.
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