There’s more than one way to skin a cat.

If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking. George S. Patton

How much experience do any of them have shooting meat?

You beat me to the post but I can forgive you because you're right LOL

Interesting, I thought there would have more 1911's and 45's.

I can't get past the idea that clueful might be an actual word.

...this might be the perfect definition/example of the word 'Groupthink'...

Guess I'm clueless, because I'm still carrying a concealed J-frame, same as I carried before I retired. Glad I made it out alive.
Bob

Clueful or clueless. More p or all the p. If you ask me standard p is enough p. My head hurts just watching this drivel.

I think the guy in that video is TRH...

“They want a gun that is super reliable, and they want a gun that goes bang every time they pull the trigger, that has simple controls, and is shootable and controllable…”

He left out “cheap”.

The Real Hawkeye: The answer to your question is "GLOCK"!
Don't need to see video.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Hard to argue the credibility of a guy w/ a high dollar film set like his, complete w/ uber green screen. He looks like he needs to start mixing some gym time w/ his range time.

Tom Givens' instructor class credentials do carry more weight than the NRA paper, this in an industry w/ few license standards.


mike r

It's been a little over 25 years since I attended, but NRA's Police Firearms Instructor Development School was operated on the premise that a FTO should be a top shooter in any venue they were instructing. There were still a few humping to pass the course when I left on the 5th day.

Sarge, you would soil yourself if you saw what passes for pistol and self defense instructor standards today w/ the NRA.


mike r

Sounds like it. Makes me want to remain blissfully ignorant of them, too.

Heck, I was an NRA Certified Instructor in Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun, Personal Protection and Home Firearms Safety for about 15 years. Basically, I took the courses through our sportsman's club and passed the tests. Kept up my certifications by sending in something like $15 every year, didn't have to retake any tests.

Guess that makes me full of clues.

I carry a glock am I clueless?

I watched the whole video. Here are my thoughts/reactions:

1. I wanted to dislike this guy for his patronizing and glib presentation. But..I kind of liked him. I believe he is sincere in trying to get people to carry the best option for them.

2. The fact that a group of people tended to carry the same gun/ammo isn't surprising. All groups will follow their leader--whether they realize or not that there is, in fact, a leader. The question is whether the leader has led the sheeple to water. In this case, I don't disagree that the modern 9mm is easily "enough gun" for self defense when loaded with HST's or Gold Dots. And, most 9mm's provide for more ammo capacity than a .40 or .45.

3. This group carries Glocks. That makes sense since an external safety is just another opportunity for a victim to remain a victim instead of turning the tables on a bad guy. I'd bet the group of instructors shuns revolvers on the basis of ammo capacity and sight radius. "No man in a gunfight wishes he had a smaller gun and fewer bullets." But...if you train with your 1911, draw it well, hit the safety off the draw, and hit what you're aiming at, I think even this group wouldn't say you've made a "bad" decision.

4. I'd really like to know how many in this group had night sights on their guns. Given that bad things often happen in the dark, I'd bet it was a pretty high percentage.

5. While this video is not the gospel as to what we should be carrying, it should certainly make us stop and think. Do what's best for you, but in making that decision, why choose non-night sights? Why choose a tiny gun? Why opt for an external safety? Why carry with a cold chamber? Why prefer 8 or 9 rounds over 16 or 18? Again, do what's best for you, but make an informed choice.

Seriously!

Why not just say "informed" or "knowledgable?"

Like I said earlier, I was surprised there weren't more 1911's.

That suggests to me they must be a younger crowd, a generational thing perhaps. It would of been nice if he threw in the average age.

What I find interesting is that anybody cares to listen to this fat neckbeard. The guy has zero real world experience that I know of. No LE experience, no military time as a trigger puller. Nada.

He is simply another ewetube goober with a camera and an opinion. He threw up a green sheet in his basement and hit the record button, and people tune into him like he is some sort of subject matter expert.

It certainly goes to show that you don't have to have any personal subject matter expertise about anything, just sound and act like you do, and the gullible and clueless will follow.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

OK I watched it. I can not fault him for finding out that Glock and M&P are popular choices. I have not figured out the Springfield XD bias.

Take any of the striker fired poly guns apart, turn them upside down and they all look the same. Surprise.

Honestly I carry mostly a G19. Not because everyone recommends it, but because it is the perfect size and weight, has enough capacity and works pretty much all the time. I have even played pick up hockey wearing it. I also carried a XD for many years, have a Kel Tec as a shorts gun, sometimes tote the CZ scorpion (kidding).

I teach concealed carry classes, and while the state (Illinois) doesn't specify this, I tell my students if they are going to carry a firearm they should have a flashlight that gets carried every time the handgun does. National stats indicate 80% of shootings occur in low light to dark. If you can't identify it, and it's not shooting at you, you better be able to articulate why you shot if you hit someone. If all you can see is a silhouette, you can't determine if your adversary (IF that's your adversary) has dropped the gun, is no longer pointing a weapon at you, or is still pointing his weapon at you. You need a flashlight if you're going to carry.

I would like to beat that guy to death with a frozen turkey.



Happy Thanksgiving,
Travis

I get tired of both pretty quick and I commend you for killing two birds with one bird.

Two...wait. What happened?




Clark

Isn't h3 the same goober that shot himself in the leg on youtube?

Apparently I’m not very well armed, at least according to this bozo. I will still wager that I’ve shot more living tissue with my carry pistol than he has combined with the rest of his “experts”.

I think everybody here agrees that a flashlight is standard equipment. It goes with you during the day and on the nightstand when you go to bed.

Flash light will give away your position.

I don't understand the social media gun "community"

Guys carrying glocks with upgraded triggers and factory sights that are worthless at night that they shoot once a month.

Guys that have no experience giving advice.

And the list of retardation goes on and on.

My factory sights are largely worthless day or night anymore. I can kind of see them...

The turkey (which would be unfit for consumption after the fact) and Neckbeard Hipster.

Part of my standard equipment, for sure.

Where's the "Like" button?

This! How many of us have experienced having lead flung their way or been in a gunfight?(not me) and I’m sure not one of those 51 people at the convention. I know a few one of them being my brother and his partners that I have met over the years during the 80s and 90s NYPD. A few things that Have always stuck with me from listening to them is not necessarily caliber or the platform which it is carried in but basically, Proficiency situational awareness profiling accessibility to firearm which Hopefully :-) will give you the upper hand. I have never experienced anything close to what they have and some members on this forum. I do not speak out of experience. I listen to people that of been there.

Wisdom! There is nothing really more significant than beating this turkey with a frozen turkey, I don’t always carry a 9mm or 40SW glock but when I carry a gun it’s always a 9mm or 40SW glock.

What amuses me to no end about the Glock Youtubers is that they preach "Glock perfection" while recommending several hundred dollars in after market parts that are "necessary" to make a Glock work--new trigger, new sights, etc.

A Glock is a wonderful pistol to spend no more than $500 on. Beyond that, you're better off buying a pistol built right from the factory.

As for this particular Youtuber, his use of the portmanteau "clueful" is enough to discredit him.

Gotta say I'd much prefer to listen to your opinions any day. Carry on.

I always carry a 9mm unless I'm carrying a 357, J frame on top of that.

Most of my guns have night sights but standard sights work just fine with a flashlight. I've yet to see any tritium sights not turn black when a flashlight was used.

If I heard him correctly, this youtube oper8tor says he doesn't carry a Glock.

Yeah, he says he carries an H&K.

Gotta decide if stopping a person from advancing farther into your home, and toward your loved ones, who are too scattered throughout the house to herd into a "safe room", is worth the risk of identifying him with your flashlight then shooting him IF he poses an imminent threat of serious bodily injury or death to you or one of your loved ones. You should always identify your target. I don't own night vision goggles, or you can bet they would be right beside my pistol and electronic ear muffs. I can hear MUCH better with my expensive electronic muffs due to hearing loss from shooting too many rounds w/out hearing protection.

There's a $3 word for ya, had to google it, lol.

So will gunshots that miss, and stubbed toes, and any of a litany of things that happen in the dark without light.

I attended the NRA Police Firearm Instructor Development School in 1991. The classroom portion was one week, and it came first. The shooting part was the last week. We all came in wanting to shoot. By the time we were done I really didn't care if I ever shot again. The qualification was substantially more difficult than anything I had encountered to that point. I got over it, and was ready to get back to my agency and start suggesting changes to our qualifications. Little did I know...

LOL yup, stepping on legos barefoot, tripping over the coffee table, or stepping on the cat, etc. Although throwing the cat might be a useful distraction, and entertaining too.

Anyway, point being that blanket statements like that above about flashlights don't do anybody much good. Learn how and when to use the tools at hand, and when not to.

Where was a blanket statement that “flashlights don’t do anybody any good”?

I could not talk to 51 instructors without getting a headache.

I don't carry a flashlight.





Dave

Gunshots? Anyone that turns a light on to avoid stubs toes in the home has just lost any advantage he had. If you live in a home you should know it in the dark, the intruder will not. Flashlights have there place but searching for an intruder with one will get you shot just as it did recently the home owner in Ohio.

Powerful flashlights are so small nowadays, that you might as well. I just clip a tiny tactical flashlight into my right front pocket when I put my wallet, keys, etc., on in the morning. Never give it a thought till it's needed. I use it several times a day for various mundane purposes. Most recently, I used it to verify that the turkey carcass was empty, i.e., no more packages to remove before cooking. On my way back from an evening walk, I routinely use it to light up the car port (anti-ambush) as I reenter my property.

Topeka?

Texas Department of Public Safety headquarters in Austin, Texas.

My shoulder rig on the right side where the two magazine pouches are, I hang a 1000 Lumen Streamlight. Very small and handy. Will blind a perp. Or use the strobe function. But the gun is the primary defense of coarse. I practice using the light with the gun occasionally. With my eyes the way they are, night sights reduce the target visibility in low light.

You don't spit into the wind

You don't pull the mask off that old Lone Ranger

And you don't mess around with Dave

The only flashlight I carry regularly is a wore-slick Maglite Solitare that lives on my key chain. I've got a couple of good, bright rechargeables but they are too big for EDC and are relegated to pickup/farm duty. We keep a few cheap, bright LED flasghlights stashed around the house, primarily for power failures,

When doing building searches, I ran a light as little as possible. I have also been known to throw a $150 department owned flashlight (mine or the other guy's, if the dumbass lit us up too much) into the next walled corridor or enclosure. I'd be behind cover where I could see into the doorway, usually with a shotgun trained on it.

Yeah, I'd stay out of the doorway and lay my streamlight on the ground and roll it. It rolled in an arc and would pretty much light up the whole room while I and my partner stayed out of the doorway. We all carried SL-20s or SL-35s so no one was willing to throw their light. We'd roll, but not throw those high dollar Streamlights. I did have one of those plastic bodied lights that we attached traffic direction cones to. If I knew we were going in for a building search in a dark building I'd grab it too because I didn't mind tossing it into a room or down the hallway.

Good grief.

Y'all should start a YouTube channel on clueful building searches.

We had to fumble along the best we could Blue, as we didn't have an internet oracle to show us The Way.

Question here for all you clueful folks:

Have you found a good true pocket 9mm pistol? The Glock 43 is a tad big for inside the pocket but can be made to work. So anything smaller that the cluefuls like?

You just need bigger pockets!

Probably so.

I don't pocket carry, so I won't guess as to what a "good true pocket 9mm pistol" is. As for the smallest 9mm auto, I did go on that journey a few years ago.

I carry a Kahr PM9 a lot. It is very small. It's shorter by a smidge than a Diamondback DB9, and a little thinner than a Sig 938. However, having owned or tested a lot of micro-9's during my search, I can't really say that a Kahr PM9/CM9 (they're the same size) is noticeably smaller than any of the others. The differences are so minute that I'd say get the one with the features you like best that you shoot the best. I went with the Kahr, because it was so small, and I liked the long trigger. I didn't want a single action trigger.

But, as a pocket pistol, I wouldn't say it's "the answer" for you if a G43 is too big. The Kahr is a little shorter in length, and a little shorter top to bottom, but again, the differences are slight. I shot a G43 and my Kahr PM9 side by side. Frankly I liked the feel of the G43 better, but not enough to go buy one. I already have night sights on my Kahr, 5 or 6 mags, and a holster. I like the setup. Admittedly, I should carry a bigger gun more than I do, but that is an entirely different conversation.

So, I guess this post is a long way of saying that if you want a 9mm auto for a pocket pistol, you could could save about .6" in length and about .25" in height by switching to a Kahr. If that is enough difference to be of help to you, go for it. Good luck in your search!

I was hoping to see more geniusness posted about the “tactical” flashlight.

What about the Ruger LCP? Mine's been reliable and it's about as compact as they come.

I carried a G17 loaded with Golden Sabres. I had a little Coast brand flashlight too while I was out and about. The area we where in felt and looked like Dubia, New Delhi, Peking and Mexico City all in one (outlet malls in RoundRock).

If I didn't watch that video, I might have carried a 1911 Tacops. LOL

I agree
Very much with this

Just dont realize how handy till you carry one

We were in a movie theater in Johnstown PA at the flood muesum and we dropped something in the dark my Son in Law pulled his pocket light no problem retrieved in a moment at that point I seen the light (pardon the pun)

Hank

They're great little pistols and way more accurate, in deliberate shooting, than I expected. I've carried them as a duty backup but since retiring, have kinda gotten away from them. With greater wardrobe flexibility I carry a G22 nearly all the time.

Though I make no claim as being 'clueful'.

John, go on the websites of the flashlight manufactures. They all have imbedded videos. They must be clueful experts. They sell flashlights. What other motive would they have. (sarcasm)

As a duty tool looking for bad guys, maybe. As a defensive tool by us civilians defending ourselves and family members, not so much. The carry gun is the tool of choice.

Thanks for the responses to my question. You all certainly are 'clueful'! --That might turn into some high usage word.

I'll look at those suggested pistols. I do like Glock for reliability and like the 43 but just want something a little smaller for when 'in the pocket' is necessary.

TRH would post the video.

Nor do I. The guy who produced that video must have a little hipster in him to come up with that one.

The way we searched buildings probably has a lot more in common with how you do it than you'd ever admit. Basic SWAT tactics for the time...we even still called them what they were, SWAT teams. Then the PC police caught up and forced name changes for the very same group of guys who didn't vary their tactics unless the situation dictated it.

I'll admit whatever you're talking about. Except for naming SWAT, I didn't follow any of that.

SWAT originally stood for Special Weapons Attack Team.

Special Weapons And Tactics (SWAT) were renamed to things like Emergency Response Teams (ERT) so they were more "friendly" sounding than "SWAT" teams. Purely another piece of PC rebadging a police group. They just renamed the team; they did not alter the way the team operated. We had to get away from anything that had "weapon" in the name. Pursuit driving was changed to Emergency Vehicle Operations Course (EVOC).

With all due respect to sensitive folks, this pc stuff is just incredible.

Yeah, I'm aware of all that. I don't know what it has to do with rolling flashlights around on the ground.

👍🏻

When possible, why not just turn on lights.

Tried to watch the video.........

Chaz Bono without pom poms rattling about 9mms

Ok. I don't believe even for a second that you can't imagine what a flashlight rolling in a dark room does...but it ain't worth arguing about.

This is the same guy who thought XD's were crap isn't it?

Thumping him with a frozen turkey seems like a good option.

Just watched the video.

That guy has some pretty limp wrists.

With all the percentages Chaz was throwing around, more than 94% of the clueful didn't carry what he did. I submit that makes him unclued, disclued even.

JOG, I think you nailed it.

Chaz just needs a little better understanding of statistics.

Looks like a video from an insecure type of guy who wants to make sure everyone thinks he's cool/smart/knowledgable about his carry choices.

What you carry is FAR LESS important than what you can do with it.

Guess I'll never make the cut carrying my 1911's, pretty sure accurate hits with sights on target faster than ASAP has to count for something, I can point and fire no other handgun as fast or accurate, Les Baer 45 ACP with 185 gr TAC-HP's at 1125, DW 10mm with 200 gr XTP's at 1244, and a favorite hot weather carry Colt LW Commander in 38 Super with 125 TAC-HP's at 1341 will just have to do.

I’ve become fond of 185’s @1300+ fps our if the 45 Super and the 230’s @ 1100+ fps.

Actually, he doesn't carry what he says most "clueful" people do.

The hell....???

Anti Ambush?

"Clueful": Word Origin
opposite of clueless
(Webster's disagrees, but Oxford agrees it is a word.)
Dictionary.com's 21st Century Lexicon
Copyright © 2003-2014 Dictionary.com, LLC
Cite This Source

Well, it seems to be a real word. (For those who deny it. )
As for a flashlight, I have 2 on me most of the time. 1 larger and magnetic for hands free work, and a small one for close up work, clenched in my teeth. I do need to get some night sights though. What sights would you recommend for a CCW Taurus millinium pt111g2?

Could be, but primarily so you can identify what you are shooting at if the lights are low or out.

Dang, gunner, me too. And just as I was really enjoying how much easier it is to carry that Springfield 1911 A1 that Wilson Combat had customized than a boxy Glock.

I don't claim to have any special clues, but I carry a Kahr for the same reason he said most of those guys are carrying Glocks.

Farm Duty
Delta Elite mostly. Colt Gold Cup Trophy .460 Rowland. Or Colt Special Combat Government .38 Super. Or any .45 I feel like carrying that day.

Urban (small town mostly).
Lightweight Commander, Browning Hi-Power or the Special Combat . Plus the truck gun which could be anything that day.


I can't point or hit anything with any of these outdated metal guns. But I'm trying to get better at my misses.

The majority of home invasion robberies (and robberies in general) are accomplished by ambush. If you're not familiar with the definition, I suppose they still print dictionaries. Also, you could Google it.

Does it work? Can you hit with it? If yes to those two questions; you're good to go!

I knew an old Captain at the Sheriff's Department that used to carry a Colt Sheriff's model Peacemaker as an off duty weapon. He told me he carried it mostly to piss off his boss (Sheriff was a drunk, and an arsehole). But I'm here to tell you... You just don't want to make waves with that man while he has access to ANY firearm. He could hit a man sized target 5 for 5 at 100 yards with that Sheriff's model, and could put 5 on target at shorter range in a very short period of time.

He also carried a Renaissance Hi Power when he wasn't feeling the need to piss his boss off.

I'm thinking the little 45 cal. 185 XTP may be a real sleeper as far as SD bullets go, bet it's a tough customer with that smaller hp opening, it may really like the extra speed ;]

LOL, that Springer sounds nice, especially after the Wilson spit shine.

, that will get it all done and then some Gibby ;]

On any given day I carry exactly what I wanna.

The clueful may assume that I can use and hit with what I carry...

I understand what an ambush is, and even an anti ambush. I'm still picturing you sneaking up on your car...

The Instructors that gave the concealed carry class I took were generally intelligent and logical guys. They did, however insist that anyone who carries concealed immediately inform law enforcement whenever they drew their carry weapon. Town guys, one and all...

I drew my carry weapon 2wice this past weekend. Got my first 9mm possum and my first 9mm squirl...
A bit proud of the squirrel shot. He was running full tilt on the bank of a spring ditch...

I'm liking the p320 compact...

That would get you arrested in Ohio. Concealed pistol permit rules do not allow for ANY hunting purpose. Only exception is in self defense.

Damn, a little touchy up that way, I saw a doe deer with a broken back hung up in the fence at the power plant up in Shady Point, turned on my flashers, got out and shot her in the head with my 45 ACP, got back in my truck, called 1411 for info, called the power plant guard shack and told em what I did, they said good, we'll take care of it, heard later someone got her and took her to a butcher, all good, couldn't leave her laying there bawling like that.

I am having trouble with the 230gr at 1300fps with any .45 Hollow point in the Rowland. They just aren't built for that speed.

Sheet, I bet so, you need hardcast flat nosed!

I dunno about everywhere, but Illinois has always allowed a coat, jacket or shirt tail to cover a pistol carried while hunting. The exception is deer hunting where only deer legal firearms may be carried.

I'm not sure that concealed carry laws apply on private property anywhere.

I’m useing XTP’s, but they change overtime so who knows if they’ll work as well with the next batch. Of course the Rowland is even faster than the Super.

Gibby may want to opt for a 185 gr Barnes, with the petals blown back near flat he'll still have a penetrating solid of around .475 dia.

I googled around a bit and believe you can find load data for the 250 grain XTP in the Rowland at roughly 1050 fps or maybe a shade faster. While I haven't used that bullet in the Rowland, I do load it in 45 Colt and it works pretty well at that general velocity range,

The 250gr XTP is good and the 240gr magnum XTP can be made to work. It is the .452 in that thick Rowland case that poses a problem. I have not tried sizing a jacketed bullet yet. The new XTP's for the .460 S&W same deal, (.452). The heavy .452 bullets gets in to the internal taper of the case. I have gone to using hard cast and HAP bullets. The 230 Hornady FMJ Match Flat nose works well and is very accurate.

I did try the 185gr XTP in the Rowland. Can't remember without my notes what load and what velocity. It was high. In the mud bank I always use to test bullets, I shot several. All went close to an inch and broke up some. They still would work at longer ranges on animals no bigger than deer I think. The 225gr hard cast works well on the hogs.

a few times in the past i've used the Hornady 250 gr XTP in .45 ACP, just to see how it would perform. (have also done so with the 250 gr Nosler in .45 ACP, firing those in a HK USP).

the Hornady XTP .452 diameter bullet can cause issues in .45 ACP, as it reaches farther down into the case where the taper of the case wall thickens, creating a bulge, and subsequently, it may not feed at times. therefore, i abandoned that bullet for usage in the auto .45's, and only use it in .45 Long Colt, and also in practice loads in the .454 Casull.

the Speer 260 gr HP in .451 diameter is one of the pills i just began using in the .45 super, and can get velocities of 1025--1050 fps. they bill it as a hollow point, but in my mind, it is nearly a soft point, as the slightly conical indentation in the nose is almost nil. they also bill it as a "Plinker" bullet, but it appears to me to be an electro-plated bullet, much like the gold dot, and might be tougher than the title indicates--can't say yet as i've not tested and recovered any of these pills at this time...

They tested the 260gr Speer here.

https://www.realguns.com/loads/460Rowland.htm/

(no cast bullets listed here)



I like using Longshot powder in the .460 Rowland myself.


The velocities go way down with the heavies. The case and OAL is only so much.

200gr to 230gr seem to be the sweat spot.

My go to load for jacketed 230gr XTP and 225 Hard Cast is 10.7gr of LongShot. Federal LP Match primers. Below maximum, but very accurate. Feels Good and the compensator works very well.

Note: The Colt Gold Cup Trophy I use for the conversion does better than their gun. Using my Ransom Rest will top their groups at 50 yards instead of 50 feet, shooting 7 rounds.
In less than four minutes later, you can go back to shooting your .45 ACP or Super Loads and vice versa.

All of that,..but I was alluding to the simplicity of the pistol's operation. Neither the Glock or the Kahr have any extraneous safety geegaws to occupy one's mind during a high stress situation.

The day I went shopping for a dedicated carry pistol I wasn't concerned with the price. (within reason) But Bud's had the Kahr CT9's for under $300 at that time and I couldn't see how it could be improved on regardless of how much money one wanted to spend.

I bought the Kahr and two cases of Federal 9mm 115 fmj's for the price of the Glock.

I have nothing against Glocks. But the Kahr is just as effective for much less money.

Kahr's are good pistols.

They are. More prone to putting out the occasional lemon than is Glock, for example, but most Kahr pistols are reliable, and the design is excellent.

I'm curious Bristoe, did you have any "learning curve" issues with the long trigger reset? Short-stroking follow up shots in rapid fire seems to be an issue for me when I try shooting my wife's Kahr. Since she's become enamored with the Shield, she rarely shoots the Kahr anymore which is a bad thing.

No. Maybe I overcompensate on the trigger release. But trigger reset has never been an issue with me for any firearm. I have no way of knowing for sure, but I think people who experience trigger reset problems on a DAO pistol have spent a lot of time shooting conventional double action auto pistols.

Pretty much my thought process on why I chose the Ruger LC9s pro as a carry gun, though I also ordered a second one for my wife and a glock 17 to have a full size 9. A decent striker fired auto just makes too much sense as a carry gun.

When you are transitioning from a double action revolver to the Kahr, short stroking isn't an issue.

Shooting a Kahr "slowly" (for lack of a better word) to try to get the best groups can lead to short stroking when you then switch to a more self defense oriented style of shooting. When I got my first Kahr I naturally wanted to see how it did from a bench and then off the bench I fired with a slow, careful trigger pull to determine POI from a standing position.

But then when I tried to shoot quickly and accurately my trigger pull was often only about 3/4 of what was needed to fire the pistol. It didn't take long to learn to use a smooth but quick, deliberate pull through just like one uses with a DA revolver. That doesn't produce the best bragging groups but that's not the point.


Added: which is kind of interesting because in my experience with four Kahrs, they are among the most accurate pistols you can find. When bench rested those little guns have outshot a few of my full size pistols including a Beretta 92 and a Ruger SR1911.

These folk's are good people.

https://bhspringsolutions.com/

They have some new products that might interest you. Some new stuff for Glocks.



Get two free recoil springs by using " 2FreeRecoilSprings" in the voucher code box at check out. Start out at FREE RECOIL SPRING tab.

You can also use another voucher code "BHVet10" at checkout to save an additional 10%. If you are a Vet.

Their springs are better than Wolf. Check them out.

I have no affiliation to them. But I like their products.

Just an fyi: Palmetto State Armory has the LCP2 on sale at $!99.99 plus shipping- which should be about -$15-$20.

Wow! That's a great deal on the LCP 2. I've been carrying my old LCP 380 as a BUG for years. Might be a good time to update.

That is a good clue. I'm feeling a little more Clueful

I'm feeling a bit more clueful myself since I got my 1911 10mm back from my 'Smith three weeks ago, I can't put it down or carry anything else, he put a really nice Cadillac custom front strap checkering job on it for me.

I've read and saw u-tube videos of 'experts' proclaiming the 10mm and any 1911 to be terrible for SD, I don't get it?????

If I'm gripping the gun to fire the thumb safety is off, it has no choice as I close my right hand grip to fire, it's where I park my right thumb, the 10mm in a 5" all steel gun is a pleasure to shoot, even with 200 grains at 1240 fps, not to mention the Lehigh Defense 140 gr extreme penetrators at 1450.

Only today’s younger generation has problems with safety’s!

Gotta be, the experts say you cant train past the thumb safety, would one of them want to test that theory?

Kahrs are good pistols but in the tiny 380's they are more prone to problems than the others. I have had 3 of their micro 380's out of 3 only one has run completely trouble free. In more than 2 dozen glocks of all calibers and generations over many years exactly one a used model 30 ever had a problem of failure to close on a cartridge. Yes they suck, dont fit my hand, dont point right, cheap plastic sights, no pride of ownership, inaccurate POS guns, which fire with great regularity and hit with acceptable accuracy.

Agreed. Assuming you only train with a 1911, and have established a 100% solid motor memory as you describe, a 1911 is an excellent self-defense tool. Otherwise, not so much.

It's still an extra step that's necessary before it can be deployed, and if you are depending, even a tiny bit, on any level of presence of mind in the midst of a life and death struggle, there is a chance (no matter how small) that when you squeeze the trigger you will feel an immovable object behind your trigger finger, rather than a breaking sear.

That said, this argument can also be made against a pump shotgun, a Model 94 Winchester, and AR-15, and on and on, and none of these are bad choices at all for defending your life (They are very good choices, in fact). When one points out the contrasts between a 1911 and a striker fired handgun, one is not saying that one is bad and the other good. One is just somewhat better. But when it comes to making a choice for a carry gun, somewhat better can sometimes amount to the difference between life and death.

Almost bought a Fancy Talo Glock 17 a while back. I am standing at the gun counter fiddling around with the mag release, racking the slide and releasing the slide. Over and Over. After a while the salesman asks "what are you doing". I just gave the gun back to him. Told him it did not fit my hands. I have big hands, but had to contort my hand to much to go though the moves.

I am still Glockless. But I did try.

Agreed and understood TRH, but, in my case, pulling, and DA fast firing my Sig 226 40 I can't hit a damn barn door with a handful of shelled corn, the single action trigger caress from a 1911 is where it will have to remain for me, now, having the opportunity to thumb back and SA fire my Sig 226 is an all together different matter, it's a fine gun, accurate, with plenty of capacity.

LOL, one of my nephews brought out his Glock 17 and 19 to the farm last spring, I knew then how damn old I was getting ;]

I have a kimber ultra carry that I've used for years. Recently I picked up a M&P shield .45 I'm starting to really like. Whatever you like that goes bang is probably fine. Unless I'm in town I usually open carry or OTWB under my jacket. People get too wrapped up in what's the best when the reality is there has probably been more folks shot with a hipoint than a glock 43 .

Is it true that Hi Points are only sold on Saturday Nights at a discount? I am clueless on that information.

Maybe so. Good enough is almost always good enough. But then what would we talk about here at the Fire?

Some people just can't exchange a quarter for a jawbreaker from a simple vending machine.
The 1911/1911A1 safety is less complex than brushing one's teeth.

That's the way I see it WTM.

When practice shooting, involve the safety manipulation in the process. Over and over. It becomes second nature. Locked and loaded is no big deal. Being able to manipulate the safety without having to change your grip to shoot is. The web of your shooting hand can be trained to do this with the narrow grip frame of the 1911. It was designed that way. Hundreds of men tried and tested the design working with John Browning. It is not a Luger grip by design for any other reason. The design points like no other to boot.

My burn-in process for that was to never disengage the safety if the pistol was below 45 degrees and to always disengage it when the pistol was raised higher. Worked for me, might not work for somebody else.

there are a whole lot of people out there that are talented beyond your wildest imagination, shooting aspirens out of the air in the blink of an eye with their trusty 45’s. Yet because there are so many dufus types in the military, much of competition shooting, and law enforcement those agencies and competitions have had to switch over to striker fired guns of plastic and other low quality materials. It’s a sad world we live in.

jimmyp, cost is THE much bigger factor when choosing issued sidearms. That's the real reason behind the changes. Even when cost is not a factor changes can move the scale towards simplicity. Example, the Marines most recent 1911A1 choice and issue...

Any type of action (single, DA/SA, striker fired, DAO, LEM, etc...) can be taught and used successfully. The proof is there in both military and gov't/local LE results. Most often systems that work just fine get changed because of simple cost and logistics.

But there are more issues for a civilian to consider than "shootability" in a personally owned CCW piece. We all travel that road.

And... I can't stomach to watch that video in the OP.

Cost is and was a factor.

It was cheaper to produce a M1 Carbine than a 1911 back then.

Geometry was never my thing.

The military chose a thumb safety.

Easy enough to get a jawbreaker with a quarter at the store, brush your teeth by yourself in the bathroom or swipe a safety at the range.

All those activities become 1000 times more difficult when you find yourself fighting for your life, perhaps in the middle of the night when you're half awake and your vision is compromised.

I have no intention of putting myself in a fight for my life to discover if I've mastered the safety or not when I can simply and safely eliminate it.

Maybe I'm in the presence of master gunfighters and will have to bow to your expertise.

Well said. No way, if John Browning were alive today, he'd look at a Glock and say, "That thing is only missing a thumb safety to be perfect." He'd likely see the genius in a design that eliminates the need for one.

Of course, once the fight is on things can go against plan. Never found a 1911A1 or M9 safety to be a problem getting into action. Not afraid of the Glock trigger at all. But I have never relied on a mechanical safety as a crutch against proper handling either.

I prefer my old classic Sig P220 DA/SA now. I have a good one that is just fine in DA, awesome in SA. Firing it is totally intentional, never accidental.

It is an individual choice. Those who choose the 1911 platform find themselves in good company, so do Glock owners.

If I just woke up and grabbed a Glock, I'd probably shoot myself in the foot. That is only if I was pointing the damn thing in the correct direction. Without coffee first.

Fixed that for you...

Actually he might like elements of the design, but he'd rework them to fit the human hand...

A beagle going nuts in the middle of the night wakes me up as well and thoroughly as coffee.

If I woke up in the night and all I had was a Glock I'd likely wanna shoot myself...

You need to develop the motor memory of keeping the index finger along the slide till ready to shoot. That's the manual safety on a Glock.

LMAO

Any safety that requires you to put your finger on the trigger to disengage it, is not a safety at all. It's a safe with no dial at all and only the grab handle for security.

If you ever watch "Cop" episodes or reruns, nearly every perp they arrest with a gun has a Frickin Hi Point! I schitt you not!

You do realize that a striker fired pistol is essentially the same as a DA revolver? Hence to fire the gun the trigger safety has to be depressed, then the trigger has to be pulled to both cock the striker and release the striker to fire the gun?

Anyone who considers a DA revolver safe, which has no safety, should be capable of considering a Glock at least as safe if not safer.

The only danger with a Glock is somebody who can't keep their finger off the trigger until they are going to squeeze the trigger, a danger shared with every firearm no matter the safety system.

If you want to make an inherently dangerous shooter safe, take their gun away.

Because, in this generation illiterate people just make up words as seems right to them. I have heard people make up words like "musicality" or "physicality". What is that about? Recently I heard some idiot news personality say "unreasonableness."

People are so flawed, they just dont get that the 1911 designed 106 years ago still to this very day far outshoots and outclasses all of these plastic guns. We need to see some tests that show how fast from draw to first hit for the 1911 vs something like the glock! Why I bet a guy with a G19 would be seconds slower than a good 1911 operator. Also I am wondering if the upkeep on the Glocks weights into the equation regards departmental purchases as 1911’s have shown themselves to be far more robust, just no convincing some people.

From what I just read here, shooting double action is the modern way to do things. I always did better shooting my double action revolvers starting with the first shot single action. If only a gun was made that shot single action all the time.



Oh wait........

If you're going to play the nostalgia game why turn the clock back a mere 106 years when you can turn it back 144 years? We can have a much safer revolver that uses "holy black", cast bullets and you don't have to worry about one of those new fangled magazines dropping out or worrying about whether you can rely on it to feed or eject? If you can't finish a gunfight with five shots you just have no business carrying a gun.

You want class, this is class

If you were to practice shooting double action, you'd be at least as accurate and possibly more accurate with the first and following shots. Your hand is in tension when shooting DA and a hand that is in tension is more stable than a relaxed hand.

That's right. That little dingus on the trigger is nearly worthless. The only real manual safety on the Glock is your index finger not being in the trigger guard till you're ready to shoot.

Amen brother so much more class✔️

I didn't say a Glock was dangerous... carried them and taught their use as a duty pistol for years. Must have done OK at it because none of those people shot anybody or anything that didn't need shooting. Glock's drop safety is a good thing. The trigger safety is still sailboat fuel.

If the length AND weight of pull were more or less the same that would seem to be a good point. But is that really the case? I'd love to see a table with a bunch of stats to compare but I don't recall ever coming across one.

It is the let off of tension that causes the problem with striker fired pistols. Your loaded muscles and tendons all the way back to the palm of your hand. Though minor, it is there. A good grip on the 1911 (or other) single actions just requires a straight pull of the #1 pad of the trigger finger. I do practice double action. That is how I know. Plus a little knowledge of anatomy and physiology.

Bullseye shooters shooting double action?

Benchrest, long range shooters shooting double action?

Single or double set triggers set up to shoot double action?

People wanting a heavier trigger pull over a lighter one?

No, I'd say the Glock isn't nearly as carefree to keep in a ready to shoot condition outside of a proper holster as would be a double action revolver. The difference is the shortness of the movement of the trigger and the pounds of pressure required. Both are a good bit less on the Glock. So if I chose to sleep with a handgun under my pillow, or some such, I'd go with a double action revolver before a Glock.

With better sights, one would be well armed with this.

I can look at that gun all night.

The 'memory' thing works for thumb safeties also. I'm continually surprised that such a basic level of competency can be so confounding to some. Who hits the mag release when it comes time for a reload? Who inserts the mag? Is the Glock a crew-served weapon to you fumblers?

I don't know how I will react in the stress of a gun fight. I do know it is not unusual for people to forget simple basic tasks when under the stress of do or die. I figure any step that I can eliminate might give me the edge to survive. If the ugliest simplest to operate gun lets me live to stroke my pretty guns at home, I'll take ugly every time. I'd rather not have somebody opine at my funeral, "Well he have got is brains blown out, but he sure went out in style."

I don't know how I will react in the stress of a gun fight. I do know it is not unusual for people to forget simple basic tasks when under the stress of do or die. I figure any step that I can eliminate might give me the edge to survive. If the ugliest simplest to operate gun lets me live to stroke my pretty guns at home, I'll take ugly every time. I'd rather not have somebody opine at my funeral, "Well he have got is brains blown out, but he sure went out in style."

So I carry an ugly double action revolver when concerned about large 4 legged miscreants, and an ugly striker fired self shucker when concerned about 2 legged miscreants. I like to keep things simple.

Has a single person here suggested that the thumb safety on a 1911 was in any way confounding? I must have missed that.

If I'm reading you wrong and you have complete faith in your ability to flip a thumb safety then so be it. 1911? I never mentioned one.

Here's a "clue"; thumb safeties suck and 9mm is the universal caliber.

Flipping the safety down on a 1911 is as natural clicking a pen. And I am a Glock guy.

I have said before. During my practice sessions, I incorporate disengaging the safety.

Depending on the gun I carry, the holster and the cloths I wear, I run through my mind what the steps are to get ready to fire. Every time I pack. I continue to run through my head from time to time while I am packing. Always being aware that I am packing and what steps to take. It is not that tough to do.

I like thumb break holsters. If I am using one at the time, that goes through my mental exercises also.

Acceptance of the well documented reality that, for all human beings, muscle memory and fine motor coordination can be adversely affected by sudden and unexpected deadly threats, is a million miles away from saying that the person stating that fact is confounded by how a thumb safety operates.

I have a nice 1911. I have various revolvers. I've shot them all fairly extensively. The Kahr is my primary defense handgun because I can shoot it double action better than I can shoot my revolvers double action. Also, it's light, flat, and conceals well.

The 1911 would be better for knockin' somebody in the head with. But other than that, the Kahr is a much better personal defense tool.

Agreed. It's well positioned to maximize the naturalness of the motion, thus minimizing the chance of flubbing it, even when muscle memory and fine motor coordination are adversely affected by sudden emergency. It lends itself well to intuitive operation. Minimizing isn't eliminating, though. Better, then, not to have that additional step between drawing the gun and having a functioning trigger. You can argue that safety concerns outweigh this benefit, but you can't reasonably argue that an additional step between draw and fire doesn't increase the chance of a screw up at times when fine motor coordination and muscle memory have a tendency to go out the window.

Call it what you want, but when you squeeze the trigger and feel that immovable object behind your trigger finger I'll call you confounded.

I'm not the one twisting words here.

For trh, there’s a chance a meteor will fall through your house 🏡 it’s happened.

If your draw has an “additional step” to manipulate the thumb safety, your draw is wrong.

Of course, I’ve said this before, and posted pics demonstrating why, but he’s not going to listen.

Some people just can't get past the argument against manual safeties.

It simply is not true for a seasoned 1911 shooter that practices proper methods. You can make up all the excuses you want to propagate that plastic gun. The reasons are getting ridiculous. How many times do we have to hear this bu!!$h!t ?

I can't count the number of young shooters that touted the same lame excuses, that after years of shooting they got them a 1911 of some kind. The used gun counters are full of plastic guns.

I bought the 1911 first.

I'm quite sure I could embark on a prolonged practice session which encompassed months of training and several hundred dollars worth of ammunition and learn to shoot the 1911 as well as I could shoot the Kahr first time out.

But the 1911 would still feel like I was carrying a brick on my hip everywhere I went.

I don't have anything against plastic guns - I'm considering a M&P Compact 2.0, and if I go that route, it will probably have a thumb safety. I don't have any reservations about a thumb safety and having one allows me to do whatever I can to improve the trigger.

This. If I could have a lightweight, reliable 13-14 shot .40 with great ergos, a top-notch trigger and a 1911 style safety, I'd consider it an all around farm/woods/carry gun. I carried a 1911 for years so thumbing off a safety is practically autopilot for me.

You're speaking of training philosophy. The physical reality, however, remains that if that safety isn't flipped off between the initiation of draw and the squeezing of the trigger, it ain't going bang. No way around this by reference to training philosophy talking points.

If you like a thumb safety for some reason, and it makes you feel comfortable to believe it's possible to train such as to 100% eliminate any possibility of flubbing it under extreme stress, please be my guest and retain that fiction.

PS As I always say, there's nothing wrong with a thumb safety on a defensive sidearm. It's just that there are better, and more certain, options out there nowadays.

The trigger is an open question, but 13+1, 25.3 oz:

Bless your heart.

Does anyone foresee the day when active safeties are removed from AR's, bolt rifles, shotguns, etc?

There is no such thing as muscle memory, it's a figment of the imagination. You either train sufficiently, or you don't.

At the very least, a safety on a trigger cocker brings an extra level of safety for re-holstering; which is where many incidents happen.

No because they aren't carried in a holster to cover the trigger nor are those shooters likely to tolerate a DA only trigger pull.

How and why I use a self defense handgun is different than how and why I use handguns and rifles for hunting and range use. Hence I'm willing to make concessions and compromises for a self defense guns that are different than the concessions and compromises I use for hunting and range guns.

I've spent over 20 years engineering industrial life safety systems and studying fatal industrial accidents, prior to that I spent five years in manufacturing. What is absolutely clear to me from both an engineering and operations standpoint is the simpler you make a piece of equipment, procedure, process, action etc, the more reliable and safer it is when the chit hits the fan.

Back atcha, slick.

No, and for the simple reason that they are not carried in such a way as to preclude unintended engagement of the trigger, i.e., they aren't carried in a holster where the trigger is covered. With a handgun carried in a holster, we have the luxury of not needing a manual thumb safety for the purpose of preventing the trigger being unintentionally engaged during routine carry.

It's a term that means what you state, i.e., that you've trained enough so that it becomes second nature (and please don't object that there is only one nature, so there can't be a second one ... it's a figure of speech like, oh, let's see, what's a good example ... oh yes, like muscle memory). No one is proposing that muscles have brains. Please get serious.

I see you beat me to it.

Place your foot on the brake before putting your truck/car in gear without thinking about it. Even when you are in a hurry.You ever mess up?

No, it never happens.

Maybe if you had two many cocktails.

I had similar feelings when I watched the initial video. The guy was annoying and certainly will never be the on-line eye-candy for the tactical crowd. However, one guy that I have deep respect for is Tom Given. On another web site he posted the following:

"At the Rangemaster Instructor Reunion & Conference we recently held in Shawnee, Oklahoma, John Correia presented an outstanding lecture on what he has observed in watching 12,000 gunfights on video. That’s right, 12,000. Surveillance cameras are everywhere now, and that fact brings us many, many videotaped violent incidents to study.

Noted trainer Karl Rehn (KR Training, near Austin, TX), attended the conference and he has written up his thoughts on John’s presentation. You can see them at http://blog.krtraining.com/even-more...or-conference/"

I guess that the guy sits around watching videos of gunfights all day and draws conclusions from what he's observed----some are probably bs but some are just statistical realities, i.e. less than 8 times out of over 12,000 observations was a reload ever performed during the action that had any effect on the outcome. Interesting. I found the link worth watching---not sure I'm up to putting up with watching Correia's youtube channel yet, but he might have some stuff there worth watching also.
JMO-YMMV

Seems to me the first step would be to get some instruction and become "clueful" for yourself, before worrying about whether or not you're packing the cool gun.

Are you on drugs? Who are you talking to?

Yes, that is CLASS!

They may have been wearing off...when I typed that...or were they kicking in...I can never tell

Good grief it ain’t that difficult to flick a frickin thumb safety off.

I'll let Mark Wahlberg's brother straighten you out.

What... This was a serious thread by the OP?

I don’t need straightening out I’ve been flicking that thumb safety since 1974 and never once hand a single solitary problem.

Don’t have a problem with any type of safety

During my tenure as a Deputy Sheriff, I carried a Para Ordnance P-14 for two years. I drew down on 4 people (4 separate incidents) who were holding firearms. My pistol was out, thumb safety off, finger along the frame before I realized I had drawn my duty gun. Thankfully, I have been shot at only once, and the chances were slim that the shooter was going to hit us. He was an MHMR patient off of his meds. He had run his entire family out of the house by waving a pistol around and firing recklessly. When we pulled up I bailed out of my car, having placed the engine block between me and him (hopefully) because he was shooting from inside the house in our general direction. I found I was holding my P-14, thumb safety off, finger along side the frame, sights aligned in general with the front of the house, again...before I realized I had done it. No one was shot so it was a happy outcome. If you want to carry a 1911 platform you have to practice practice practice. I spent my own time and money to attend semi-automatic transition schools. I estimate that we drew and fired, from the secured holster, over 1000 times during each of the schools. We not only worked on getting safeties off, etc., we also cleared malfunctions until we were sick of it. Time crunches supplied some of the stress, and an overload of competitive testosterone supplied the rest of the stress.

Try using a Lightweight Commander. You might like. Many do.

.....and that is the reason for the additional grip safety on a 1911.

Cluefull people can actually work the controls on any pistol.

Very true

It's as simple as that.

Been there, done that. I was on the other side of this argument for many years, and gave all the same responses you guys are giving. I was a devotee of Jeff Cooper, read his books, and gobbled up his regular commentary. I also had it down to nearly reflex to take the safety off my 1911 as part of the draw and shooting stroke. This, even to the point where when I switched to a Glock, my thumb looked for the nonexistent safety reflexively upon the draw. Regardless, if there’s a thumb safety on the gun, swiping it off is still an additional thing that has to happen before the trigger can be engaged, which step is dependent on human action, no matter how well conditioned. If you are devoted to the 1911, you accept this, don’t dwell too much on it, and move on. But what I really can’t understand is the rationale behind choosing to have a thumb safety on a handgun whose design doesn’t require it.

Does the word “safety” ring a bell?

One can indeed engage the trigger first and then swipe the safety and the gun fires, one can engage the trigger and safety at the same time and the gun fires or as you say one can flick the safety off and then engage the trigger and the gun fires.
They all work. For me I don’t have problems moving from a thumb safety to a revolver or semi auto pistol without a safety, or a shotgun with safety or a rifle with a safety no matter where it is located.

I struggle to figure out how some create a problem with this.

On a single action carried fully cocked, sure. Otherwise, not.

Figures. Striker fired benifit just as much.

No safeties on any of my revolvers, either.

When a striker fired pistol has the same length and weight of trigger pull then your arguement would make sense, now not so much.

Active safeties (not passive safeties like firing pin blocks) are like exposed-trigger holsters vs covered-trigger holsters and shotgun chokes---they exist to compensate for the ineptness of the operator----they don't make the mechanism "safer"---they attempt to lower the probability of unintended consequences by dumbing down the mechanism, occasionally to the point of inefficiency of the mechanism.

Of course, JMO-YMMV

Looky here Buckwheat... you can deride pistols and holsters all you want but don't be talkin' no smack about the greatest firearm innovation ever- the fixed and perfectly regulated Modified choke of my Belgian Light Twelve

You just described the Glock pistol.

Agreed,

I used to compete in 3 different classes in the same day. 1911 for open class, Beretta 92 for stock class, and a 686 for revolver class (Occasionally a Webley Mk IV), all in the same day; can't recall EVER having a problem under pressure when switching handguns. Gotta always have your brain 100% in the game.

This thread has boiled down to clueful people and people who choose to remain clueless.

Some people see and read, but do not listen.

You tell 'em Sarge!!

….you're exactly right!! When you design something for the masses, you have to compromise in a number of places----that dumbing down is part of the reason that striker fired guns are the easiest mechanisms to train newbies on.

Sarge, I don't know if you're into Sporting Clays and know who Gil Ash is, but he puts out a pretty good argument that Modified (in either conical or parallel form) is the perfect choke.

I'd say it's boiled down to a contest of egos who absolutely "have" to be right, with occasional voices of reason crying out in the dark.

Damned straight.

Being the voice of reason is sometimes difficult, but I'm glad to have provided said service for this thread.

How do you collate being the voice of reason, and starting a thread like this?

And we really appreciate that.

Nobody has an opinion on the grip safety of the 1911?

It would better if it weren't there, but they tend to work without any intention or training (other than for proper grip), so it's no great big deal. Cooper pinned his in place, thus making them as if they weren't there.

The old time TX Rangers used to pin their grip safety's on their 1911's. Some of them even tied them off with a piece of string, before gunsmiths figured out how to pin them.

I haven't been there in years, but at the TX Rangers Museum in Waco, they used to have some on display that had been modified. A few of them had even ground off the front of the trigger guard for easier access to the trigger, while drawing their weapon.

With our overly litigious society I wouldn't disable a safety on any firearm I planned to use for self defense.

http://www.sightm1911.com/1911pix/historic/Texas_Ranger_1911.htm

The holster thing is one of the talking points that the 'no safety' crowd uses, but it's of no consequence to me since my handguns are designed to be carried in-hand.

You just walk anywhere and everywhere with your gun in your hand?

Novak Sights used to sell "The Answer" which was a one-piece beavertail and mainspring housing that disabled the grip safety. I still see one occasionally.

When it matters, yes.

I know for a fact that under pressure I revert to whatever I have been shooting the most.

Right after I got to Ft Lewis my unit was hosting a Canadian unit and had a 3 gun match (using issue gear)as part of it. Up till then almost all of my pistol shooting had been on my own time with a 1911. To make a long story short on the pistol stage on the very first target I drew my M9 and swiped the safety on.

The pressure was all self induced since it was just a competition, but it was enough to cause me an issue. I went and bought a 92 and haven't shot my 45 since then.

Our Safariland 6004 holsters would cause me issues every once in a while too when I'd forget to close the hood. I'd start the draw and when my thumb didn't find the hood where it was supposed to be it would cause a moments hesitation.

dodgefan...you just described exactly what I have observed for the last 25 years of teaching...

Shooters who have the "gun of the month" attitude think they are just fine mixing and matching guns of all types. They do just fine shooting or doing drills but put them under the pressure of a blind scenario or a real life incident and they often fall apart. This is especially true of people who usually shoot a revolver or striker fired semi when they throw a semi in the mix that had a manual safety. Can't tell you how many times I've en these people come out of the holster and pull the trigger to have nothing happen...

Bob

No, just to the end of the concrete slab on the back porch after dark.

Good idea.

I thought this thread was about concealed carry. My Bad.

Your talking about your big gun now. I see.

In honor of our discussion, I took one of my 1911s to the range.



Shot the little fellow, too.

I'd like to carry one of them Springfield 1911's....to the range, or in the glovebox, or out in the woods, or around the house.

But it'd be close to my last choice for concealed carry.

What would be your top last choice Newby?








Welcome to the 'Fire

Thanks Gibby.
Probably something lighter and more concealable.
You see, where I come from it's cornbread and chicken...I meant it's pretty warm, or some might say stifling, for a good part of the year. And I'm not a really big guy that can easily conceal a 1911 when wearing cargo shorts and a t-shirt.
Now in the winter time, on a few of the colder days when a coat is required, I could probably hide a 1911 or a double stack plastigun.
But I'd say if I felt the need to carry everywhere I went, that something like a CW9 would get a good bit of use. And an LCP might find itself in a pocket here and there. And I'd probably have to include a snubnose .38 in the mix.

Not the most powerful sidearms I know. But even a PMR30 could put a world of hurt in the right spot.

I sure do admire a 1911 though.

Not the top of my list for concealed carry these days, but believe it or not, I carried one very much like it for several years IWB. It’s not actually as uncomfortable or hard to conceal as you might think.

Two words:

Forty Five

Looks like Colin Flaherty doesn't like this guy very much either.

Ruger LCP with crimson trace laser and DeSantis pocket holster, loaded with 90 gr Gold Dot at 1100 fps.

It weighs 10 ounces loaded, 6 ounces unloaded, recoil is painful.

It will not fit in the shirt pocket with the holster. So it is in the inside pocket of my jacket, over my heart.

Lately it has been 2 airweight J frames. 1 in pants pocket and 1 in my jacket pocket. If my hand is in the jacket pocket, I'm holding the gun.

Hi all the answers are wrong except the Phoenix Arms 25 ACP. The bone crushing power of this cartridge has to be witnesed to be believed.

It doesn't hit like a brick through a plate glass window like the .32 ACP.

The 25 ACP is easily lethal and can cause terrible injuries. No joke.

Within its useful range of 6 feet and closer...and no leather jackets and other winter clothing to penetrate.

I have some 25 acp handloads I made, with recoil so painful, you can only shoot a few shots.

In a 25acp work up, the good ones stop when the primer pocket enlarges. The beat up 100 year old Spanish 25acps may have a primer pierce before the primer pocket gives up.

I did know a guy with a pawn shop in Crystal springs FL that was run through by a customer with a samurai sword. [that might be where they got the plot for Pulp Fiction] He killed the guy with a 25acp, and got out of the pawn shop biz. My friend died 15 or 20 years ago of natural causes.

Paul Harrel claims he carries a little .25 auto. I think the guy in the video is that fellow from Cold Steel.

Colt Wiley Clapp CCO, .45 acp in a Simply Rugged Cuda holster and 1 spare magazine in Simply Rugged mag carrier.

Bond carried a 25, James Bond

It was taken from him pretty early on and replaced with the .32 ACP Walther PPK, because "the CIA swears by it."

I worked with an old guy, down in Fla.I belive he was from the New York, we drove beer trucks, he carried a 25acp in each front pocket. He was a former Boxer, boy he had some stories!

I had a cousin who was shot with a .25 in a bar. He went to jail for the beating he gave the guy after he shot him. Bullet stopped in his breastplate.

That settles it... no guessing what the next FBI service cartridge will be

When my brother was in the 77 precinct 80’s he had a 14-year-old Spanish kid shot in the stomach with a 25, he rode in the ambulance to the hospital with him to try to find out who shot him. ( which he did )That kid bled to death15 minutes After he was shot,In that ambulance.

Sounds like self defense

Went by my 'smiths today, he installed a beautiful high blue polish magwell on my 1911 Les Baer 45 ACP, got a set of trijicon night sights coming for my DW Razorback 10mm, damn I love adding personal touches to 1911's.

Gonna have him checker the front strap on my LWC in 38 Super next.

Kind of like the old days with tinkering with muscle cars.

About the only thing I change on a CC 1911 would be to remove the oversized safety levers that come on a lot of models now days. Smaller is better with my holsters I use.

My guess is that most of the folks this guy queried re their choice for EDC also carry loaded chamber. Good for them. My choice is empty chamber unless I'm going into an area or environment I consider sketchy - which I try to avoid.

My current EDC gun is a S&W Shield in .40 S&W. Before I tuned the trigger it was not really suitable for EDC.

Before the Shield I spent some time with a Walther PPK/s .380 as my EDC weapon. Because the slide was difficult to operate I decided it was not worthy of such use, either.

My Kimber Compact .45 replaced my Browning BDM 9mm as my EDC weapon back in 1999. At the time I just felt the .45 would be better if needed than the 9mm, in spite of the 15-round capacity for the 9mm. Both, IMHO, were eminently well qualified for EDC.

On rare occasion I carry a pre-safety Beretta 950 in .25ACP. Pretty much limited to when I'm wearing a suit - weddings, funerals, nice dinner out with the wife, etc., but even then I have something 'better' in the car while traveling to and from.

What's a 'Glock'?

When did you emerge from your fallout shelter?

But what about the 22 short?

Well, I'm done with hickock45......... I've found my new innanet gun guru.

I am sorry I guess I will never understand empty chamber in a carry pistol.

It's foolishness.

Thinking a gun with an empty chamber needs a trigger job is what’s crazy.

I would venture the same, "polishing a turd".

Dad isn't carrying with chambered round gets himself and son killed.

http://www.alloutdoor.com/2017/04/12/dad-isnt-carrying-round-chambered-gets-self-son-killed-video/

That's OK, I don't understand why some people (Big Brother included) are so adamant that 'cocked and locked' is the only sane way. Even on those occasions when I chamber a round it is very rare that I cock and safe my hammer guns, whether they are SA or SA/DA.

With an empty chamber, my Kimber 1911, Browning BDM, S&W Shield, Walther PPK/s and Beretta 950 all have the same manual of arms when it comes to putting them into play and I don't have to think about safety up or safety down to fire.

Every method of carry has its particular advantages and disadvantages. Big Brother had a thumb slip one day and his car got ventilated from the inside.

The main thing is that we have a gun when needed. I hunt most of the time with an empty chamber as well and have been excoriated more than once for doing so - but the fact remains an empty chamber has never cost me a an animal.

This week I screwed up and had to donate my knife to the TSA. Now I'm running around NJ defenseless. A pistol with an empty chamber and full mag would be a vast improvement.

Why? You never shoot your guns at the range? Never take multiple shots when doing so? Don't find that a good trigger helps you shoot more accurately?

My Browning BDM 9mm came with a trigger pull that was literally off the trigger scale at the gunsmith shop. No one who tried could shoot it well consistently in DA mode. Hell, no one could shoot it well, period. A professional trigger job turned it into a great shooter. My .40 Shield also shoots much better after I tuned it up.

While we may disagree on the necessity of loaded chamber or 'cocked and locked', I think we both agree that if shooting is necessary, a gun that shoots well is to be preferred over one that does not.

There are HUGE differences between the situation in the video and how I carry.

The store owner knew that trouble was possible or even probable at some point in time, yet he carried empty chamber. In that situation I would have a loaded chamber.

When I'm walking through downtown Denver or driving though some areas of it, or in environs where I think I might be singled out, I carry with a loaded chamber. Those events are rare, though, because I do my best to avoid them. When near my home turf, in the small local towns or any number of other generally benign and uncrowded environs where use is much less likely, empty chamber is my preferred way. Some people, Big Brother included, carry Condition One even at home. I have house guns handy but don't bother with carrying them.

Carry in whatever mode you are comfortable using and I'll do the same.

When I lived with a duty belt my gun stayed fully loaded in it. Now that I'm free of it, the carry gun is cleared and the mag reinserted when at home. But if I leave the house with a holstered gun, it's fully loaded.

Like most things in life this is about making choices and playing the odds against potential consequences. If you're going to pack Condition Three, at least explore some methods for getting the gun hot PDQ,

http://www.thesixgunjournal.net/a-brief-exercise-with-the-mossad-draw/

What I do. A favorite BHP is chamber-empty in the casa. My carry gun (usually a J-frame .38 revolver) goes with me fully loaded when I leave the house. When I did my Iraq tour I carried a 1911A1 chamber-empty on patrol in a shoulder rig. C3 was totally appropriate. There are times when a chamber empty pistol is the way to go. It all depends on what you're doing.
Bob

In my simple mind, if there's a scenario where I feel the need to carry a sidearm for protection, I can't imagine it not being ready to go, minus pulling the hammer back anyway. Watched the Godfather 3 today. Assassin shows up at the theater with his rifle wrapped in a towel and unassembled. He had to assemble his rifle in the balcony before he could off Al Pacino. He missed his opportunity. My little brain says, "Huh, that's kinda dumb. Why would you suffer all that exposure and inconvenience when all he had to do was smuggle it in assembled?". What do I know, I'm not an assassin nor do I play one in the movies.

Maybe I should go back and read all 15 pages and see what this is all about.

1911 Lightweight Commander, loaded chamber, cocked and locked, no ambidextrous safety, no extended safety and an extra power firing pin spring, Titanium firing pin with the correct holsters designed for such.

... in .45 ACP , extra full magazine or two .

Lots of practice.

I like loaded guns, even have a few in the house.
Guns are like buying insurance, get the least possible to feel good, or, go a little farther to be truly protected.

That applies to quality as well as chamber conditions.

They aren’t carry a 25 and they aren’t carring cold.

Your comfort with how you carry a pistol aside I won't argue what is right or wrong for you in your mind because I cannot fathom your point of view, it is as alien to me as fried grasshoppers would be at an English Tea.

I told a friend of mine who recently got his carry permit but had never owned a gun or shot before a couple of years ago to sign up and spend some money on shooting lessons that focused on producing the gun from a holster and shooting multiple targets and moving etc. He is still uncomfortable with the pistol so he carries without a round in the chamber. In front of his wife I told him "I just hope your carry decision does not get you or your wife killed one day because of the false confidence it gives you". He was not happy that I insulted his manhood in this fashion and has not spoken to me since then.

I think he fancies himself pretty slick with producing the pistol from the holster and putting a round in the chamber.

If you need to draw a gun, you need it to be ready to fire. Otherwise, it’s nearly useless.

jimmyp –

While I understand your argument for Condition one (I get it all the time from Big Brother), I disagree with the premises and therefore the need to carry that way all the time.

The fact is that some environs are much safer than others many situations are slow to develop. Big Brother lives in town and carries Condition One all the time, even when inside his home. We live in the country and I never carry unless leaving the homestead. Very different environs, different threat levels, different carry needs.

When I go into the small, local towns (Franktown, Castle Rock, Parker, Elizabeth, Kiowa) we have a fully loaded .38 revolver in the console if in my wife’s car, plus the Condition 3 .40 Shield on my hip. If in my car we have just the .40 Shield. Our time in these towns is mostly limited to daylight hours in places where I’m not aware of any crimes having been committed. Again, pretty low threat environs.

The roads we drive to those towns (to Parker, in this case) have only had one shootout that I know of in the 28 years we’ve lived at our current residence. That incident involved a Franktown bar, a drunken patron, a road chase and a Sheriff’s deputy. A slow developing situation, to be sure, but not something I’m likely to get involved in - especially since my wife and I don’t go to bars. To my knowledge, the remaining millions of vehicles using those roads in the last 28 years have traversed them safely. Seems like a pretty low threat environ to me and I’m comfortable with a Condition 3 carry while on those roads as a result.

When I drive to the airport I have no gun at all because I don’t want to leave on in the car while it is parked for a week, especially since I valet park off-site. And, of course, when I fly (weekly), I have no gun at all at my destination. On the rare (3-4 times a year) occasions when I have to go to the office in Boulder, I use I-25 to get through Denver or E-470 to go around it. Can’t carry in the office yet the threat level there was once high enough that an individual had to be terminated. That guy worked in the cubical next to mine.

Such accounts for about 99% of my life. We actively avoid crowds and environs we believe have elevated threat levels. When such environs are unavoidable I’m happy to go to Condition One or Two, depending on the situation and the weapon I’m carrying. Those situations, though, are rare because we take active measures to avoid them.

The facts are that accidents happen even to the best trained and experienced people and that negligent/accidental discharges often occur when administratively loading or unloading a weapon or transitioning to or from Condition One. By carrying in Condition Three most of the time, I eliminate thousands of opportunities for such discharges. I’ve had one such discharge when shooting one of my Marlin lever guns at the range and had a thumb slip while lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber. Fortunately, the rifle was pointed downrange and the bullet impacted the berm. Big Brother has carried condition One for 30 years or so and has had a thumb slip as well. That event ventilated the floorboards of his car.

Some people would suggest that if you’re not going to carry Condition One you might as well carry a rock. Those people aren’t thinking.

CH, perhaps we can start by hearing what possible justification you could have for ever carrying an unloaded firearm.

OK, you beat me to it. You carry unloaded firearms because you don’t trust your skill level to safely handle a loaded firearm. OK. Got it.

I'm carrying loaded semiauto 9mil, with a thumb safety engaged. That is how I practice from IWB and from pocket carry inside my jacket. You can do as you like, but I experience no difficulty slipping the safety off as I'm ready to fire.

If there’s a round in the chamber, it’s loaded. If you’ve trained to always swipe off the safety, it’s likely (though not certain) that you will do so when needed. That’s far more justifiable than carrying an unloaded handgun.

I too live in a rural setting, just north of you a couple of hours. It's a gated, fenced subdivided ranch with a herd of wild horses so the fencing and electric entry gates are well maintained. It's easy for me to get lulled into the belief that I live in one of the safest places on earth…..if fact, I live in a place that should some conflict take place there is NO ONE that will hear or see the commotion and NO ONE that will come to help. In reality rural environments like mine (and perhaps yours) are a happy-meal for a well equipped miscreant. Seeing as almost all home invasions happen AT HOME, I carry at all times around the house. I would respectfully disagree with your comment that "some environs are much safer than others." The "bad part of town" was safe once---until it wasn't……if you consider the "mass shootings" that took place in your area (Columbine, the Aurora theater, the Church in CO SP)---those were all "safe environs," not ghetto alleys. The fact in today's world is that there is no safe environ---including your home.


When threat assessment is reduced to history it ignores a couple of key issues…….I read an interesting book on probability called "A Drunkards Walk, How Randomness Rules Your Life" (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2272880.The_Drunkard_s_Walk)…..since crime is a function of human volition the concept of randomness makes the standard rules of probability (like what percentage of time flipping a coin will result in a "head" vs "tail") almost irrelevant. i.e. 100% of the people that were murdered last year had never been murdered before. The probability arguments can get pretty silly.


Perhaps you've attended a John Farnum class---he's one of the old time original defensive shooting instructors and lives near Ft. Collins. He's big on avoidance and frequently refers to "places to avoid." Good advice. His bottom line however is that just as you "take active measures to avoid them," we should realize that those environs can and do come to us with increasing frequency……ie. Muslim bombings/truck assaults…..who ever thought that someday assaults would be spurred by such lofty concepts as Civil War Statues and Bathroom designations?

Well, CH, it's obvious that you've spent considerable time thinking about it and your general level of mental preparedness is high. As long as you're comfortable, it's all good……just want to challenge you not to rely on the fact that since something hasn't or rarely has happened, it won't happen again. As Ayoob has said, "it's not about the probability, it's about the consequences."

JMO-YMMV

The whole "thing" to me is like the difference between driving an automatic vs a manual transmission where the clutch of the manual transmission is the "safety".

The extra clutch pedal is not a hinderance at all... unless you don't know how to drive a stick

I go seamlessly between the two.

The fact that you think you know ahead of time when you need to load your pistol and when you don’t Is ridiculous. The people sitting in church in a good part of town though they were safe also, yet a shooter walked in and slaughtered many of them. When the shooting starts I want to shoot back immediately, not need to load.

When your life is threatened, as many extra steps as possible needed to preserve it will be eliminated, should you get a second chance.

I would agree with you in concept, but that particular example does not work. The first shots came blind through the side of the church. By the time he came inside, it wouldn't have made any diffrence if the bullets were loose in your pockets. Those folks were sitting ducks.

How can you claim it would have made no difference? Loaded you are ready to respond, unloaded you are not ready to respond. But the point that I was/am making is “that you will not know ahead of time if you will need your firearm.

And I agree with your point, but shooting back through a blind wall, is Stupid and irresponsible. By the time there was a clear target (when he came indoors)enough time had already passed to load if needed. I would never carry an empty gun, even with loaded mags in a pocket, but it could have been done in that case. There was no immediate target.
In my opinion, an empty gun is just an excuse to get shot.

I consider "empty chamber" and "unloaded" to be two very different things. To me, "unloaded" is empty chamber and empty or removed magazine.

If you ever have a thumb slip I hope you remember what you wrote above. No one is immune to accidents. I've been safely handling handguns and long guns since I was about 8. One thumb slip in the intervening 59 (in March) years is not a perfect record but it isn't bad, either.

As long as you know where your target is you shoot, that should be easy to comprehend.

Coyote, my carry guns are Glocks, and they are loaded when carried, and generally when not.

Don't really care how you carry your gun but this is at least the third time you said this. I'm curious how you pulled a trigger with your thumb?

I'd like the scoop on the disdain for XD's. I guess I don't get "it".

So, how are you chambering a round without cocking the hammer?

Oh - I guess you mean you lower the hammer after chambering a round - right?



Seems to me that what you haven't learned is that you actually introduce more opportunities for such discharges.

.....But I'm not one of the "clueful people" the OP talks about, so what do I know?

Who in the hell is Lynn Thompson?

As long as you know where your target is you shoot, that should be easy to comprehend.
[/quote]
"Your target, and beyond. " (so....You are ok with losing a busload of hostage nuns and orphans, because you returned fire through a blind wall?) Got it
(If you can't identify your target. You have no business shooting at all. )

"Your target, and beyond. " (so....You are ok with losing a busload of hostage nuns and orphans, because you returned fire through a blind wall?) Got it
(If you can't identify your target. You have no business shooting at all. )[/quote]

You are OK with allowing a killer to continue to kill because he is behind cover, OK got it.

You are adding a “bus load of hostage nuns and orphans” I guess you pulled that out of left field.

All the handguns in my safe are loaded with one in the chamber. It eliminates guesswork and wondering.

George

I’ve no doubt I could walk into areas in Denver where I would need my gun before the day or night is over. Some places are definitely safer than others.

The cases you mention – Columbine, the Aurora theater and the Church in CO SP – were all rather long events where there was plenty of time to load an empty chamber unless you were one of the first people to be shot.



Yes, they can. If we ignore “history” we might conclude certain streets or areas of Chicago, where murder is a daily event, are no more dangerous than the street I live on or the area surrounding it. But no murder has ever occurred on my street or, that I’m aware of, in the immediate area. Coming to such a conclusion would indeed be “pretty silly”.



Never attended a Farnum class but am familiar with him. And I agree with Ayoob that it’s about the consequences. I’m also aware that history is far from perfect predictor of the future.

At home we have multiple DA revolvers, fully loaded. The fact that we have not needed them in 28 years of living there does not mean we won’t need them in the future – which is why they are there. When driving down the Interstate I generally feel pretty safe, but once went to Condition One due to the actions of another driver. Another time I had no gun and used my knife to deter an aggressor half my age. (That incident was what finally convinced me to carry full time when I can rather than just on occasion.)

The one incident of a shooting on Parker Road, a couple miles from the house, does not lead me to believe that another is imminent, even though another is probable. The fact that one such an event happened on one day out of over 10,000 that we’ve lived in the area, while millions of vehicles traversed the road safely, does not decrease the likelihood of another such event, it just suggests that the likelihood of such an event on any given day is very slight. By contrast, the likelihood of such an event on any given day on certain streets of Chicago approach 100%. Some areas are indeed safer than others.

Lastly, I would like to thank you for the reasoned and mature tone of your post. We may not agree on everything but I think we respect each other’s position.

+1

Get a Glock dude, no more thumb slip problems. Secondly it’s your life not mine.

You are OK with allowing a killer to continue to kill because he is behind cover, OK got it.

You are adding a “bus load of hostage nuns and orphans” I guess you pulled that out of left field. [/quote]
I'm saying you do not yet KNOW what the heck you are shooting back at. Whoever is shooting may have hostages, human shields, explosives, you have no idea. And there is a big difference between shooting through cover, and shooting blind.
Personally, I can accept my own death, easier than I can accept my killing some innocent kid, while shooting with no clue to what is on the other side of a wall.

Heck, I frequently do not carry. Yep, I said that.
But when I do, its fully loaded. An empty chambered gun is like a limp dick,
It is useful for some things, but will leave you and your loved one disappointed at the main event.

I dam near choked on my chew. That's pure logic right there. LOL

I'm saying you do not yet KNOW what the heck you are shooting back at. Whoever is shooting may have hostages, human shields, explosives, you have no idea. And there is a big difference between shooting through cover, and shooting blind.
Personally, I can accept my own death, easier than I can accept my killing some innocent kid, while shooting with no clue to what is on the other side of a wall. [/quote]

I never said anything about shooting blindly, that is a figment of your imagination.

I never said anything about shooting blindly, that is a figment of your imagination.
[/quote]
If you are returning fire through a blank wall (which is how the church shooting started) you ARE shooting blind.

Reasonable question. And yes, when I load the chamber I've usually dropped the hammer. My S&W Shield is striker-fired so no hammer to drop. That one would get safed but I've never gone to loaded chamber with it except at the range. The others have hammers.



The most likely time for an AD/ND is when transitioning to/from a loaded chamber. In the 15 or so years I've had my CCW, the number of times I've gone to Condition One or Two can be counted on my fingers and toes, probably just my fingers. Given that I've been carrying daily for about 10 years (3,650+ days), I'm guessing I've made the transition far fewer times than most people who carry in Condition One or Two as a matter of course.

My Beretta 950 (.25ACP) is SA with a pop-up barrel and the chamber can be loaded and unloaded cocked or not. No need to risk a thumb slip on a loaded chamber. No safety, so even if I carried loaded chamber the hammer would be down. Like my Shield, though, I've never had cause to load the chamber while carrying it.

My Browning BDM 9mm and Walther PPK/s .380 are both DA/SA with hammer-drop safeties. When safeing them I also use my off hand to help lower the hammer gently. The PPK/s models had a recall because they could fire if the hammer was dropped with the safety and the chamber was loaded. Mine has the fix but I see no reason to fully trust any hammer-drop safety. Condition One carry is not possible with these two guns. Even if my thumb slipped on these, the hammer-drop safeties should protect against an AD/ND. I know I've loaded the chamber on the Browning a few times (it was my EDC weapon more years than all the others combined). Not sure about the Walther but never carried it much and don't recall ever loading the chamber except at the range.

The Shield is my current EDC weapon. No hammer so a thumb-slip AD/ND isn't possible. That doesn't rule out finger-in-the-trigger-guard AD/ND opportunities, but so far, as noted above, I've never had reason to load the chamber when carrying it.

A thumb slip on my Kimber 1911 could easily lead to an AD/ND when the chamber is loaded. It got carried a few times before I started daily carry, but very rarely since. There were occasions when I was in Denver that I loaded the chamber and dropped the hammer to go to Condition Two. I'll bet I could count those times on one hand, even if it was missing finger or two.

Has my carrying empty chamber mostly and only rarely going to a loaded chamber condition really introduced more opportunities for an AD/ND? I think not.

Cocked and locked on a gun that was designed to do so . I see no problem.

For people that have flipped the safeties from "safe to fire position" all their life on every gun they own before shooting. Whether is be on all your rifles, shotguns or pistols.

Pistols that use inertia firing pins with firing pin springs are generally safe.

Safeties built into the trigger scares the $h!t out of me. I do not like de-cockers either.

Being clueful is knowing your gun and it's limitations.

...and not having butter on your thumb.



No different than a revolver with a cocked hammer and you decide not to shoot. You lower the hammer. Correct?

Okay, I'll ask again now that you've said it four times at least. How are you pulling the trigger with your thumb? Just curious.

FN 5.7 is the best carry gun ever made.

Letting the hammer down with his thumb whilst pulling the trigger with his finger. Ever handled a 1911?

BS, I said as long as you know where the shooter is you fire, that keeps his head down and saves lives. These type people are going to shoot innocent people unless someone intervenes.

No. Never. But I heard they have something on the side called a safety? (So you can carry it with a round in the chamber, or so they say.)

Intervene when you can identity your target. Innocents can be on both sides of the wall. Get yourself to where you can see what you are shooting at first. He didn't care who he hit, his target wasn't even there, but you must care who you hit, or you are no less dangerous than he is.

I question why anyone would be letting the hammer down to begin with on a 1911. It is my understanding that it is not designed to be carried with the hammer down on a live round. Put one in the chamber, put it on safety, put it in your holster carry on. The thumb slip should never have happened and it is my opinion that it happened because someone was operating the weapon in a manner it was not intended to be operated in. It's his life and his business and there is no reason for us to castigate him over his wrongful decision based upon a fallacious assumption that resulted from the improper handling of a weapon.

When I pocket carry my LCP II there is no round in the chamber. When I go to a restaurant, theater, meeting, party etc. where I will pocket carry, my chamber is empty. Why? Unlike when/where I carry it in a belt holster, when you sit down with a pistol in your pocket the barrel is likely going to be pointing at other people. I would not feel comfortable sitting in a theater if the guy behind me was pointing a fully loaded gun at my head. I don't care how safe he was or how unlikely it was for that gun to go off. I suspect most people here would not be comfortable either. When that pistol is in my pocket, the barrel is pointing at the head or back of the person sitting in front of me. That's unacceptable to me.

I carry to the theater because it is in a rough town and neighborhood and it's often dark when I walk to my car. I could leave it home, as some feel it's useless if there's not one in the chamber, but if I need a gun, it's closer than it would be in my night stand drawer. I pocket carry when I need that level of deep concealment due to the clothes I'm wearing.

It's ok to decide how to carry on a case by case basis, due to the exact circumstances and evaluating risk vs benefits. How/where/when you decide to carry a firearm is YOUR call. You will have to live with whatever consequences result from that decision. Inform yourself and make your decision and it's not up to me tell you what or how to do it or you to tell me how to do it. But, I would hope that the guy sitting behind me in a theater or restaurant is not carrying such that he is pointing a loaded gun at me, whether I can see it or not.

You dumb azz that’s what I said “once you know where the shooter is you engage. These type of shooters shoot innocent defenseless people. If others are where he is he will shoot them.

You are extremely obtuse.

Ridiculousness persists.....Why dont you just stop pocket carrying if it scares you so badly? Why dont you carry a different gun, if the quality or design of the LCP is such that it makes you feel that it might go off without any outside influence?


but if thats the theory you are going to hang your hat on, then I am glad you dont have anything in the pipe.

People complained about the original LCP trigger but it was perfect for a pocket gun,

Once again, you don't get to decide for me how, when, what or why I carry. "I'm a grown azz man." Is any gun safe enough that you would want someone pointing a loaded gun at you for a couple hours? Regardless of how safe the gun is or how disciplined/safe is the person carrying it, I would not be comfortable. Go to a range and start pointing your safe but loaded gun (even if it's unloaded) at people and just say "it's ok, I'm a safe guy and my finger isn't on the trigger, nothing can happen" and see what the reaction would be. Since I wouldn't want anyone sitting behind me with a loaded pocket pistol pointing at my head, I won't do that to some unknowing person. That's my decision, and I don't give a flip if you think it's ridiculous or not.

Is this a serious question? Have you never transitioned a revolver, 1911 or other hammer gun from loaded chamber and cocked to loaded chamber and uncocked?

My thumb is used to drop the hammer gently. In addition, I generally place my other thumb between the hammer and the frame so that a thumb slip would cause nothing more than a pinch.

Agreed.

You also said this, numnuts.:

"
The fact that you think you know ahead of time when you need to load your pistol and when you don’t Is ridiculous. The people sitting in church in a good part of town though they were safe also, yet a shooter walked in and slaughtered many of them. When the shooting starts I want to shoot back immediately, not need to load"

Which would have been BLIND. You obviously can't count time.

Yes it was a serious question. Thanks for answering. Why don't you just use the safety?

My Kimber 1911 (and many other 1911s) have inertial firing pins - when the hammer is fully down two things are true:

1. The firing pin is not in contact with the primer.
2. The hammer cannot drive the firing pin into the primer unless it is driven forward with such force that it destroys the slide.

They are perfectly safe to carry hammer down on a live round (Condition Two) and there is no mechanical reason not to do so.

Assuming an attack would commence exactly like a particular past incident is kind of silly. You two are engaged in a ridiculous argument, because that shooter could just as easily have walked into the building before he started shooting. He would have entered the room from behind where most of us would be sitting. Now how much time do you have?

Smith Wesson 642

>>When the shooting starts I want to shoot back immediately, not need to load" <<

Then that is what you should do. Why do people here think that when someone states what THEY do that they are somehow saying that is what YOU should do? A discussion among grown peers shouldn't devolve into peer pressure, or ridicule. We should be able to discuss what we do and why without it turning personal. I'm interested in hearing what other people do and how they think about things like this. Ridicule and peer pressure will make it less likely for people to share. That benefits no one. It's perfectly fine to point out what and why you do differently. Is it possible to respectfully discuss something here like grown men?

If I thought like that,and I'm not criticizing your reasoning, I would not carry a semi auto. I would put a hamerless airweight in my pocket,in a pocket holster and just leave the one in line with the barrel empty. I'm of the opinion that when you really need a pistol,you might not even have time to get one out of your pocket,let alone chamber a round. I don't care how fast you can do it in practice, when someone comes in the convenience store you are in with a shotgun and shoots the first guy,your dexterity will go to hell. You would probably jam it if you tried to chamber one.

….You must be new to the Handgun Forum….. :-)

Let's dispense with all the description of various pistols that I am fully aware of and cut to the chase...



Many years ago, I had an AD at the range (gun pointed downrange - no harm) while lowering the hammer in the first SA auto I ever owned (because somebody told me I should). Sweaty thumb slip. I have seen the same thing happen with a lever action rifle. (admittedly, not directly related to the discussion, since it had no safety other than half-cock)

I have never seen any way that a proper 1911 can AD when left C&L - without something depressing the grip safety and the trigger - which isn't going to happen while carrying it in a good holster. Hence - my view is that lowering the hammer on a live chamber offers more chance of an AD than simply leaving it C&L.

As for the rest of it - the need to chamber a round or thumb a hammer back just introduces one more opportunity for a bobble under pressure - at the most critical time. If it's worth that risk to you, go with it if you like.

Yeah, where's the fun in that?

The leather holster for my 1911 has a thumb break strap that fits between the hammer and slide, while cocked and locked. That adds even an additional level of safety comfort. For those not comfortable carrying cocked and locked, it's something to think about.

Jeeesus Christ?



You must have one.

FreeMe and cooper57m, you are both correct.

I stated that in this particular event, there would have been time to load. It is not what I would have done, but it could have been done, due to the wall acting as concealment (not cover). I said this was a bad example of why it had to be ready to fire at the instant. (It could not have been used instantly.) By the time you could get to a vantage point and able to find your target, there was plenty of time to insert a mag and rack a round. (Again, not my method).

If he had entered the church first, the responder would be a dead man.

Now, I'm done arguing with someone who can't understand timing. I can run a split second shot clock for a radio station and make it sound natural, (dead air is a career killer). You have to think ahead, and muscle memory plays a big role. But you can't do things in the wrong sequence, or it is completely wrong. Timing matters.

In this particular event, there was time to load, without effecting the outcome.

If you are not comfortable carrying cocked and locked, you should not have a 1911 to begin with.

Yes, Kellory - except for this...



Maybe - maybe not. If he was dead, it makes no difference. But if he wasn't among the first few shots or if he was only wounded, there might have been time to react effectively. We can speculate all day on the "ifs" - but adding an another step to deploying the pistol does what it does.

Actually, if you go on Galco's website and look at Q&A's, they will tell you not to do that. Additionally, they say using a holster without a retention strap to go by your gun manufacture's recommendation. With Colt, that means cocked and locked is okay.

I have no idea why they recommend that. They will not tell why either. I have asked them.

I think you have missed my point. The defender, with an empty gun, would be useless if the attacker came straight into the church. Only because the attack started from outside and shielded, was there time to load.

I use the safeties on my 1911 and other carry weapons when target shooting. For Condition 3 carry, the safeties are worse than superfluous - safety on in Condition Three is counter productive.

As I've stated before, Carrying in Condition Three allows me to use the same procedures for any of my autoloaders. No need to think about safety up or safety down (or no safety at all, as is the case with my Beretta), no possibility that an extended safety will catch and move into the off position, no fumbling with a small flat safety.

Every condition of carry has its advantages and disadvantages. There has never been an AD/ND with a gun in Condition Three, while there have been many with Condition One. I've made the determination that Three is adequate for more than 99% of my carry time and it comes with the advantage of much higher safety during that time.

Thanks again. I just wasn't clear up front what the thumb had to do with anything.

Outside of Israel (because it's the law), you're typically not going to find much love for C3 carry. Sure it's safety foolproof, especially if you have your gun taken away, but it's unnecessarily slow and complex. Still, if that's what you're comfortable with, then it's a whole lot better than being unarmed. Train well, be safe, and let's hope none of us ever need it.

And all this is why I like a double action or at least a double action-like striker fired for most self defense situations. Just pull the trigger with some degree of force, that force likely go unnoticed in a situation where it needed to be pulled.
But not likely to go off by a oops I touched the trigger while deholstering or the trigger caught on the inside of my pocket and went off. I know this never happens though, right...

I remember the first time I handled a shield, I thought, dang that trigger sure is light.
To me it would almost be like carrying condition 1 in a single action with the safety off. Which for me is usually only common practice when hunting with a rifle or shotgun in my hands and not slung over my shoulder.

I like a single action for hunting or target shooting though. And I think a striker fired pistol with a light short trigger is probably safer for open carry than it is for concealed, for me. Because I like one in the chamber unless it's in storage.

Instead of loading your gun, that should have been loaded to begin with one should use that time to access the situation.

Another worthless comment.

You'd be more believable if you'd just admit that you aren't confident and comfortable with condition 1 and leave it at that. The mental gymnastics that you take to rationalize C3 are just so much confirmation bias. What you are talking about makes about as much sense as carrying a DA revolver with the first-up chamber (as opposed to chamber under the hammer) empty to avoid an AD.

No one has seen fit to answer my question about XD yet, but no matter. This thing has turned ridiculous, with a bunch of guys claiming a"right" and "wrong" way for another guy to carry his gun. Are you people retarded? How many different pairs of pants do you have (the answer better be one)? How many jackets (again, correct answer is one). There is only one set of conditions, and we are all exactly the same, so there is only ONE RIGHT ANSWER. Idiots. Why do I even bother?

Apparently DeSantis doesn't see it that way.

Link failed. Midway shows a DeSantis Thumb Break Mad Max holster for the 1911 with the thumb break employed as I described.

I didn't think I was crazy or scared of Condition 1 carry. Read link below.

https://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/ad_tb.htm

The one I see accusing people of being idiots here is you.

There is no reason why any of us shouldn't discuss our reasons for what we do or think others should consider. Disagreement makes people think. Thinking people often change their minds through lively debate. Like many of us here, I am not afraid to have my assumptions challenged by logical thought. If debate scares you, this ain't a safe place to be.

I'd answer you XD question if I had an answer - but I don't know much specifically about the XD, and don't even remember the question.

I know.

I am unclueful why Galco states that. CYA maybe.

I’d say he is spot on.

Oh, I don't know, maybe someone could have one not for carry but for range work or home defense where it is not being carried. These days there are a lot of pistols better suited for CC.

Perhaps you could be more specific; what disdain?

Agreed, there are better uses of that time, but the church shooting was put forward as an example of why all guns should loaded and ready for instant use. But, as you will see in my FIRST post on this subject, in this particular case. It would have made little difference, due to how the attack unfurled.
"The fact that you think you know ahead of time when you need to load your pistol and when you don’t Is ridiculous. The people sitting in church in a good part of town though they were safe also, yet a shooter walked in and slaughtered many of them. When the shooting starts I want to shoot back immediately, not need to load.
I would agree with you in concept, but that particular example
does not work. The first shots came blind through the side of the church. By the time he came inside, it wouldn't have made any diffrence if the bullets were loose in your pockets. Those folks were sitting ducks."


There are many better examples of the need to be ready, not almost ready. However, the church shooting was not a good example. It would have made little diffrence to the outcome ,loaded, or unloaded.

No one knows anything ahead of time, that’s why prepaid for the worst and hope for the best.

If I was more comfortable with Condition One than Condition Three, I'd use it more often.

Happy now?

I thought it was pretty obvious people carry with the mode they are most comfortable using.

Much of my adult life has been spent fixing failed electro-mechanical stuff. Some have been pretty bizarre failures, things that in theory should never happen. If you want to fully trust a mechanical safety, go for it. After all, no one has ever had an AD/ND using Condition One, right? I choose not to.

I don't think so. Not a lot.

Just one example mentioned before:

1911 Lightweight Commander, loaded chamber, cocked and locked, no ambidextrous safety, no extended safety and an extra power firing pin spring, Titanium firing pin with the correct holsters designed for such. With a flush fitting metal bottom magazine.

... in .45 ACP , extra full magazine or two .



It takes time for some to understand.

Others, it is drilled into them. Over and over and over again.

We are talking about a true battle gun are we not?

Or just some modern assembly marketed as such with no history.

Triple Tap that Jack!

Are you saying C3 is amune to AD/ND?

Condition Three is empty chamber, loaded mag, hammer down.

None of my firearms will fire - intentionally or otherwise - with an empty chamber. So yes, I'm saying Condition Three is immune to AD/ND.

In order to have an AD/ND they must first be made to leave Condition Three.

"Prepare for the worst and work for the best" is something I've been teaching my girls for years.

I've also taught them that asking themselves "What is the worst that could happen?" when making decisions can save a lot of grief.

.

That really takes the fun out of it.....

Don't cross the street you might get run over.

This thread has turned into nothing but an argument. Some people read but some do not listen.

It has included "forgetting to snap your safety off under duress" to being able to use both your hands to rack your slide and then shoot. What is the bad guy doing while your using both hands to get ready to shoot?

"Hold on a minute boy, let me get my gun ready to shoot you at arms length".

I am sure the bad guy will oblige.

CH and I have a simple difference of opinion. I don’t hate him because he does not carry a round in the chamber. It’s his life and his decision. My goal was to provide my opinion and post a few examples of failures with this mode of carry.

Agreed. We have both made assessments of our environments, come to different conclusions as to the threat levels we face and thus made different decisions as to the best method of carry for our purposes.

I was not talking specifically about you two alone.

We all have something to learn from each other. If we think about things said.




I tend to think a CC incident as a "battle scenario" .



.....and me winning.

I can't do some of the things I could do when I was younger. But I still feel comfortable in my abilities.

I'll just say it before someone else.....

That guy's a little slow on the trigger.

No, it makes a good point.

Hardly. It just spouts an opinion, not fact. And not a particularly well-reasoned opinion at that - in my opinion.

Yeah, in your opinion.

I gotta admit, if you're carrying a 1911 and it's not cocked and locked you might as well be carrying an empty chamber.

Oh wait...

Practice, practice, practice


http://1807801.mediaspace.kaltura.c...25+Colt+Target+Video/0_8gru3pc7/47337722

If at arms length. Optional ways to use your weapon ----

1)Full length grip frame metal frame gun with flush fitting metal bottom magazine. Makes for a good downward motion weapon to the head. (hit with the butt of the gun)

2) 1911 with the safety on. Makes for a good jab weapon to the head/face or sternum. (even better if the gun has a full length guide rod)


Both especially good if you live in a "one up" state like I do. Sometimes you don't have to shoot.



Note: Better if your gun has Front Strap Checkering for sure grip.

What a completely stupid thread.

MM

The thread has a lot of different scenarios. Just like real life.