Originally Posted by 458 Lott
Originally Posted by SBTCO
Originally Posted by crossfireoops
It's difficult to discuss something this complex in off the shelf , cryptic sound bites, and vague generalizations.

Example:
Quote
All things being equal, its the heat treat that makes the difference.


not at all sure just what you're trying to say,...

GTC




You're right, I should have clarified. I'm on the side of high carbon tool steels used in knife making where heat treat makes or breaks the final product and forging is used as another means of forming the steel vs stock removal, which unfortunately has a certain following that thinks the forging process produces a superior steel/grain structure strictly by virtue of pounding the steel.

My guess is you are coming from the low carbon structural steel side where cold forge/forging those steels has its positives not as evident in knife making.

This guy has a lay men's explanation for the basics in forging and heat treat http://www.cashenblades.com/images/articles/lowdown.html for knife steels but I think still has validity in general terms for basic steels in general.

It really does come down to the type of steel and what it is going to be used for as to whether or not forging has a place in the production of the product.


Has anyone passed the ABS journeyman 90 degree bend test with a knife made from one of the Carpenter wonder steels that have been shaped by grinding and with a proper heat treat?


Many of the so-called "wonder steels" are not a good choice to forge in the traditional manner because of the complexity of the materials involved as well as the critical temps needed for proper heat treat and temper, not to mention hitting the right temp.( usually by eye) during forging.

It should also be mentioned that the ABS testing for journeymans cert. has more to do with proving temp. control over different areas of the steel and how it is applied in the forge, than building a knife that can be bent into a 90 deg. without breaking. As I recall small cracking in the bend is even allowed as long as it doesn't migrate past a certain point. Besides, a bent knife is a bent knife. It is now in a weakened state and straightening it out only adds to the issue.

The advantages of forging knives are in the artistic nature of the process, the ability to blend different steels together for the patterns visible after etching(the so-called Damascus steel look)and taking advantage of the strengths of two different steels and blending them into one blade, such as O1 for its edge holding and L6 for its toughness and tensile strength. Best of both worlds and looks beautiful too. However, if the forger is also heat treating in the forge as opposed to a computer controlled heat treat oven, he/she better have an accurate eye and know their steel, because if they don't hit their numbers spot on, the steel will not be hardened to its full potential and produce and inferior product.

Stock removal gives you a much larger pallet of steels to choose from, and with less complexity in the building process, since in most cases the steel comes to the knife maker in a clean, precision ground and pre-forged state from the foundry. With the use of a proper heat treat oven the stock removal maker can hit the required temp. numbers with extreme accuracy and bring out the best in the steel with superior control over that from a forge.



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