Gitano--
Please explain the big advantages of the .308 over the 7x57. I have used both cartridges a lot and have a hard time seeing any difference in field results, recoil, etc.
I can appreciate that the .308 has more factory loads available, at somewhat higher velocities. Also that it is generally slightly more accurate, which I believe is mostly due to more consistent throat dimensions. We could also argue that it fits in a short action, saving us maybe a 1/4 of a pound.
But on big game they work the same. (Emphasis mine.)
MD
And
and why would that be? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
I think it first needs to be said that I have no intention of engaging in an
arguement about the relative virtues of the 7x57 vs the .308 Win. There's no "discussion" there... I won't convince you, and you won't convince me. Second, I've no interest in challenging or joining a praise-fest of JOC. He's already been sainted, and who am I to suggest he isn't one. (It's a rhetorical question if course... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)
That said, I'll offer the first-hand experiences I've had with both carridges. If you don't agree... well, that's what horse races are made of. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Above, Mule Deer make's my case in several areas of comparison, so without belaboring those points, I'll go straight to big game "performance" about which Mule Deer asserts "they work the same".
As I said in my initial post, enamored with JOC as a youth, when it came time to make a rifle for my wife, I chose the the cartridge OConnor chose for his wife, the 7x57 Mauser. I waffled back and forth a bit between the .308 Win. and 7x57, but in the end OConnor's influence won out, so she got a custom 7x57 built on a Ruger M77 action. She, armed with the 7x57 and me with a variety of 7mms, wandered the alpine tundra and plains of Montana after caribou, pronghorns and mule deer. Over the course of about 15 years, I got to see quite a few kills made with the 7x57.
It is probably appropriate here to mention another perspective of mine. Doing so will shed
a little more light on my
attitude about "performance". It will also provide further proof that my heresy is not limited simply to failure to worship OConnor and the 7x57 (or even -gasp, dare I say it - the .270 Win.) but extends far beyond that to reject even more sacred mythologies. (Heresy alert! All you high SD folks better have a seat.)
Specifically, except for calibers larger than .40, I prefer light-for-caliber bullets. That preference is based on almost 5 decades of hunting
in Alaska, supposedly where"big", "manly", bullets are called for more often than not. For example, I shoot ONLY the Speer 115 grain HP in every form of 7mm I own EXCEPT the 7x57. There are two reasons: first, it is the most precise bullet from those rifles, and second, it flies like a laser, and hits like a sledge hammer. (The 7x57 case however, simply can't drive that bullet to velocities that result in the type of kills I prefer, except at ranges too close for most caribou shots - about 100 yds.) Sectional Density was a relevant bullet characteristic only until we started to have available to the average hunter, choronographs and an understnding of the physics of external ballistics. Today, to put it as nicely as I can, SD is a distraction and really nothing more than a ballistic paper tiger. If you're serious about discussing a bullet's potential for penetration, then the most reliable
and appropriate measurement is momentum. (I would be happy discuss this specific point at some length, but I've digressed far enough already.)
In side-by-side kills on caribou, numbering well in excess of 20, I have NEVER seen the 7x57 put one down in it's tracks. NEVER. NOT ONCE. At the same time, while the .308 Win has not accomplished "bang-flops" EVERY time, it has for more than half of them. Let me ralate a specific instance in which the 7x57 performed what would be called "perfectly" by the heavy-for-caliber/high SD crowd.
We had completed a long and exciting stalk on two caribou bulls, and they had no clue to our presence. I positioned my wife to take the closest one but that position didn't allow me to see "my" bull clearly. As a consequence, I had to move to a slightly different spot. From my shooting position, I could see neither my wife or her bull. I told her to shoot when she was ready, and I would follow her shot. My bull was 211 paces away, hers about 100. At her shot and after shooting mine, I leapt to my feet. I saw her caribou high-tailing it straight away from us. Every step that caribou took, was two I would have to carry it. My wife, a novice hunter, wasn't certain she had hit the bull, AND she couldn't reacquire it in her 'scope. I watched that bull run approximately 100 yds, wanting to give my wife every opportunity to shoot it again before I shot it. (Chivalry was paramount, but issues about "food" were a VERY close second. This was a meat hunt, and dinner was running away. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) Just as I was about to shoot her bull, he started to slow down, and shortly, he stopped. When he did, he had that staddle-legged stance that most experienced hunters recognize as "dead on their feet". As I looked at him closely through my 'scope, I could see "steam" coming out of both his sides. He was indeed "dead on his feet". In a moment, he rolled.
When we got to him, I saw that Susan had made a textbook, broadside shot. The 139 Hornady had gone right behind the shoulder on the right side, trashed both lungs, and exited out the left side, again behind the shoulder. I seriously doubt we "lost" an ounce of meat from that bull. My bull was a different matter. He had been quartering toward me with his head down when I shot. The point of his shoulder was a perfect aimpoint, and the 7mm 115 Speer HP in front of the necked-down 300 Weatherby case, hit precisely where I aimed. At a stepped off 211 paces, the bull folded like a wet rag. I suspect he was unconscious before he hit the ground. HOWEVER, that bullet, hitting exacty where I aimed, did its job well. When we took my bull apart, I couldn't find a piece of bone bigger than my thumbnail within 6" of the point of impact - the shoulder joint. We lost about
two pounds of meat from that bull.
"Wait a minute!" you say. "What's that got to do with a comparison to the .308 Win?" Patience is a virtue. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I relate the story to present an example of the "performance" of the 7x57 that illustrates why I don't like
it, not to suggest anything about the
relative performance of the .308 Win. That comes next. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (Also, I have to admit, I try not to pass up the slightest opportunity to tell a hunting story. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />)
The above after-the-shot behaviour of that caribou bull exemplifies the after-the-shot behaviour of almost every caribou I have ever seen shot with the 7x57. They ALWAYS run away SOME distance. Do they also always die? Absolutely. "So", you say. "What's the big deal? Dead is dead." Very true. But you know as well as I do that "dead is dead" is
not the point
on several levels. (A minor point is that the 7x57 is consistently extolled as "almost magic" in its "lethality". I don't consider animals consistently running around after being shot as conclusive evidence that a particular cartridge's terminal performance is "almost magic".) But there is really a much more relevant point, and it's unrelated to whether a particular cartridge is "sanctified" or not. Regardles of the number of my wife's kills, she was and still is, a "novice" hunter. This is a non-trivial point UNRELATED to her shooting skills, which are excellent. Instead it is an issue of the Hunting
experience. I could go on considerably (as you may now realize) about the the internal, external and terminal ballistic performance in the above example, but that's really just fodder for internet and campfire "discussions". What was important about the above example was what my wife
felt about the experience, and what role the 7x57 played in shaping that experience.
As we watched the caribou run away, first, my wife doubted her shot. Then, because she was inexperienced, she couldn't re-acquire the bull quickly in her 'scope. More stress. The competitor in her didn't want the outcome to be that I had to shoot her caribou "for her" because she either missed or couldn't "get back on it" in time. Finally, maybe it was only wounded and getting away! None of the above thoughts and emotions are present when an animal falls within a body length or so. And there's my 'rub' with the 7x57 Mauser.
Is the 7x57 an excellent cartridge? You betcha. Is it "up to the task" for caribou and a whole host of other big game? You betcha. Is it the better choice for a novice hunter,
with excellent shooting skills, than the .308 Win?
No.
And multiple "bang-flops" from the .308 Win. on caribou , mule deer and pronghorn antelope (using a 130 grain HP <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) are "proof" enough for me to make that assertion.
Paul
