One of the better highlights I've seen. Well worth watching.



Brian.

Good one. Not sure you can even have a top 50 without a single Ali knockout, but that's just me.

Thanks!! +1 on The Rock

Foreman/Frazier is missing....

Would have liked to see Foreman-Frazier, Foreman-Moorer and Ali-Foreman on there. But as someone who makes highlight videos in his spare time, I know that you can't put EVERYTHING in there, either due to space or availablity of footage.

Brian.

Old Floyd damn sure put the hurt on the Swede with that Lhook.

I would have to include Hearns knocking out Cuevas, and Hagler putting Hearn's lights out.

Just watched the Pacman interview on 60 Minutes. The Manny �Pacman� Pacquiao vs. Antonio �Tijuana Tornado� Margarito at Dallas Stadium should be a good one. He really believes he is the greatest boxer of all time.

Michael Spinks use to have a wicked left hook.

That Hearns and Hagler fight is my all time favorite. Good post WB, thanks.

OT, I know, but the Marvelous Marvin Hagler v. Sugar Ray Leonard battle is a must-see for any boxing fan. Unreal. And count me as one who still contends that MMH got robbed.

Sugar Ray did NOT win that fight. Not by a long shot. Those judges were complete donks.

Brian.

I missed the interview, but Pacman is going to whoop up on Margarito in a bad, bad way. Margarito is horribly slow and Pacquiao is one of the fastest in the sport.

Brian.

Pretty suprising, considering the savage beating Johannson gave Floyd in their first fight.

Brian.

Brian.

always good stuff you post on the fight game Brian,


I sure appreciate it

I remember reading that the doctor visited Hagler's corner to inspect his cut and the blood flow into his eyes..

Doctor-"Marvin, can you see alright?"

Hagler- Why, am I missing him?"

Marvelous Marvin was a bad mother [bleep], no two ways about it.



Brian.

Well, since you can't have a boxing thread without a little of "The Greatest", here you go.





Brian.

How about some Smokin Joe?



Brian.

This one NEVER gets old.



Brian.

Brian.

For those of you who enjoy kickboxing.



Brian.

Brian.

I seen a young Philp Jackson on ESPN score a heck of KO,cannot remember who it was.Like to see that thing again!!!

The only videos I can find of Phil Jackson are of him getting beat up by Lennox Lewis and Wladimir Klitschko.


Brian.

Concur.

thanks for sharing; it's always fun to watch some of those memorable fights. I remember seeing a special on Tyson's first 25 fights; most of those fights ended in the first round, and many were lights out. I never liked the guy, in fact I think he's an animal, but he was unstoppable when he was young.

Mike Tyson was a fantastic, fantastic boxer. Good technique, very fast, superb power. After Cus D'Mato died, he lost all his focus, started partying all the time, and believed his own press clippings. Plus, his style - which relied heavily on being faster than his opponents - didn't transfer over well as he aged. He didn't have a style like Archie Moore or Bernard Hopkins where he could outsmart guys and beat them on technqiue alone. As soon as he started slowing down, guys started catching up to him in a big way.

Brian.

I think it was in the first couple of years into his career. Thanks for looking tough.

No problem my friend.

Brian.

You are right,that pretty boy Morrison and Mercer fight never gets old. Dropped him like bad habit.

Brian.

Morrison is slime, so it was awesome to see him put down in such a violent manner.

Brian.

Brian.

Dempsey chopped Willard down like redwood tree.

Some Mike Tyson for ya'll.







Brian.

Chopping down a redwood tree takes time and paitence. Dempsey blew the tree down with TNT.

Brian.

Manny Pacquiao on last night's 60 Minutes.



Brian.

That announcer more idiotic metaphors than Cossell.

History has been kind to Howard Cossell, even though he was horrible.

Brian.

One of my personal favorites.



Brian.

I'll tell you another tough knockout, Gerry Conney getting Norton trapped in the corner..I thought Conney was going to kill him while the ropes held him up. Kenny Norton took a lot of bad beats.

Because no boxing thread would be complete without some Big George.





Brian.

Ken Norton was a fantastic boxer, one of the very best of his generation, but he just couldn't fight backing up. Big punchers who could get him moving backwards - Foreman, Shavers, Cooney - always had his number. But technical fighters like Ali and Holmes? Norton gave those guys hell.

Brian.

Two of the best middleweights in MMA, Anderson Silva and Vitor Belfort (who will be fighting Super Bowl weekend), do a little boxing earlier in their careers.





A little taste of Vitor doing his thing in MMA.



Brian.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcAZ7gnRh4o

Unreal. True spirit of boxing, AFAIC. I've seen these fights a hundred times, and it still gives me the goosebumps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Iuq2m4dW-E

Those videos pretty much sum it up - Ray ran away and only fought the last 30 seconds (more like the last 10 seconds) of every round, and two of the idiot judges thought that was enough to give him the fight.

Brian.

Brian.

Brian.

Brian,

As a boxing fan, I want to say thanks for the memories!!

But less we forget:

That round is MONEY!

There is a movie coming out next month based on the lives of Mickey Ward and his half brother Dickie Eklund. Looks pretty good.



Brian.

Brian.

Brian.

Norton vs Holyfield both at the the top of the game would have been something to see.

Norton would have given him a war. Holyfield was the type of guy that Norton did well against, traditionaly.

Brian.

Prediction?

Brian.

Brian.

Moore got blasted!!

Got any Alex Stewart fights? Lost to Foreman.but sure tuned Big George face into a mess.

Here's one of my favorite heavyweight fights.







Brian.

Brian.

Moore could hit damn hard for a ex lightheavy. Thanks for all these fights Brian

Has more to do with proper technique than power. A lot of lighter guys move up and find success mainly because heavyweight is such a shallow division and frankly, most heavyweights just aren't that good.

For crying out loud, a 300 year old James Toney ate enough cheeseburgers to make heavyweight, and he aquitted himself fairly well.

Brian.

True, Brian

Brian.

I just got Ken Norton's autobiography "Going The Distance" in the mail today. Good stuff so far. Supposedly Norton could run the 180 yard hurdles in 19.8 seconds.

Brian.

Good Deal!! keep me posted on the book. Norton would have been one heck of a football player.

Norton actualy was a heck of a football player - he got over 90 scholarship offers to different schools to play college ball.

His college football career got derailed after he saw his girlfriend drive by his house with another man. He jumped in his car and chased them down and got them boxed into a cul de sac. He jumped out of his car and slammed the door, intending to put a good beating on the other man. The other guy was a bit smarter than Ken though, and he just floored his car and ran Ken right over. Ken went up over the windshield, and when he hit the pavement he broke his colarbone. He didn't get it set correctly, and it bothered him for quite some time and really effected his college football career. He got tired of struggling with the pain, and when his coach gave him a hard time about something on the field, he just walked away.

He ended up joining the Marines after that, and found out if he played a sport for them that he got better food and was allowed to sleep in. They only had two athletic programs there, football and boxing. While he was a fan of boxing, he wasn't too interested in competing, saying he didn't want to mess up his "pretty face". He went to the football coach and told him his credentials, and the guy almost passed out from joy. The coach couldn't believe his good luck in having an animal like Norton on his team. Then Norton told him he played half back, and the coach just looked sad. He told him that another player had kind of taken over that position, but Norton could go head to head with the guy and try out for the position. Norton ran rings around the other guy, but he ended up pulling rank on Norton and kept his position. Norton ended up playing some other position, and he started to get real tired of this other guy treating him like crap. So one day they were playing, and Norton was making a hard run for someone to tackle, when this guy steps out in front of him. Norton said, "Oh, screw it" and ran right at him. The guy turned, locked eyes with Norton, and Norton just smiled and put his head down and knocked the guy about 10 feet in the air. The guy got up, ran up to Norton and said "So you think you're real hot chit, huh n***er?". Norton told him where he could shove his rank, and took his helmet off and walk away. As he walked back to the barrack, he passed the boxing coach. He asked Norton what was wrong. Norton told him and he said, "Well, you're welcome to come and box if you'd like." Norton said, "I guess I could", and the rest is history. Norton said he had ZERO interest in boxing, but couldn't pass up having the better food and being allowed to sleep in.

It's a pretty dang interesting book. The part where Foreman and his crew screwed over Norton in Venezuela is pretty darn interesting. I think Foreman would have beaten Norton one way or the other (just due to the style matchup), but they had Norton mentally shot by the time he entered the ring. It was some pretty seedy stuff even by boxing standards.

Brian.

Norton claims this was the best performance of his entire career.





Brian.

What about a Norton vs Lyle? Who would have took that one? Quarry just came along 10years to late.Of course he would have to have dealt with Liston tough.

According to the book, they offered Norton the Lyle fight after he lost to Cooney and had retired for good. They offered him a lot of money for the fight (so did several other promoters trying to put together other fights) but he had zero interest in boxing after the Cooney fight. The doctors told him he was 4 seconds from death against Cooney, and he wasn't interested in being put in that position again. Also, he had slowed down considerably by that stage in his career, and was having trouble with guys like Scott LeDoux and Tex Cobb - the kind of fighters he ran over just three or four years before.

As for how Norton and Lyle would have matched up in their primes, I would have to favor Norton. Lyle in his prime always had trouble with the better guys that he fought - Quarry, Young, Ali and Foreman. I would expect Norton at the very least to win on points and possibly even stop him.

Jerry Quarry was a good fighter who just didn't have the defensive skills to beat the best guys. I would have favored him to beat Liston though, who wasn't nearly as good as people crack him up to be.

Brian.

Foreman vs Lenox Lewis both at the top of game?

Hard to say. Stylisticly, Lewis dummies Big George in a bad, bad way. Then again, in his prime Lewis was put away by Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman. It wouldn't be shocking if Foreman landed a huge shot and knocked him on his ass, particularly when you realize that Foreman in his athletic prime was ultra agressive. I don't know if Lewis' jaw would be able to stand up to that kind of power - then again, his losses to McCall and Rahman were predicated on Lewis having zero respect for either of those guys and getting sloppy out there. He beat the dog crap out of both of those guys in their respective rematches. I have the feeling that Lewis wouldn't underestimate a guy like George Foreman.

I would favor Lewis on points, but wouldn't be horribly shocked if Foreman flattened him. That would be a damn good fight.

Also, you're a daisy if you don't watch Margarito get his ass handed to him by Pacquiao tomorrow night.

Brian.

Finished the Norton book this afternoon. It's a DAMN good read. Norton went back and watched all his fights on film and did a blow by blow analysis of every single round and scored his own fights in a very open and honest way. His scoring of his third fight with Ali exactly mirrored my own scoring of the fight.

The book is WELL worth reading and I recomend it to anyone who is a fan of boxing or just combat sports in general. It delves into his personal life and even talks about his difficulties with his son Ken Jr. (a star NFL player at the time). You can get the book used for next to nothing on Amazon.com - I think I paid more for shipping on the book than I did for the book itself.

Next up is Archie Moore's autobiography, "Any Boy Can". My copy arrived today, and much to my suprise there was a personal letter inside the front cover dating from 1971. It was from the book publisher to a journalist, talking about how they should read the book and have Archie on their TV show to promote it. Apparantly my book was an advanced copy sent to this journalist.

The book so far has been interesting - it was written during the civil rights movement, and apparantly Archie had a BIG problem with millitant blacks. Archie believed the best way to bring the races together was through love, good will and compassion for your fellow man, regardless of color. He had a youth program that he used to help teach children of all races the importance of respect, honor, and hard work.

Archie was a cool cat, for certain.

Brian.

I once heard Archie was told to take it easy on the Rock,truth or fiction?

I don't know if he was told that or not, but there is no way Archie took it easy on him. He wanted that heavyweight title more than anything in the world.

Brian.

Rock vs Dempsey?

Whoever landed harder and cleaner first. Neither guy were great technicians, but they both had sick power and decent chins. Both were pretty much cut out of the same mold. Would favor Rocky since 1920's boxing was lightyears behind what it was 30 years later.

Brian.

your opinion on the fight tonight? pac man is going to have a tough fight with Margarito's size

I am not familiar with Margarito so I went to YT and watched some of his clips...he looks way too slow for Manny, but we'll see. What struck me I picked up through watching clips were two things.

First, Margarito wanted the Philippine fighter to come to CA too fight, but Manny refused, stating the CA taxes were to high. Good for Manny!

Second, Margarito can barely speak English, despite being born in CA...nice.

Ehhh, the reason the fight is in Texas instead of California is due to Margarito's failure to get licensed there. Margarito got caught loading his handwraps against Shane Mosley last year, and he's had his license pulled pretty much everywhere. Texas, with it's rather lax athletic commision, was the only state that would license Margarito.

As for the fight - Margarito is MUCH bigger than Manny, but Margarito is also glacialy slow. Margarito had serious problems with the speed of a rather old and shopworn Shane Mosley, and got beat up and stopped in that fight. I'd expect Manny to hit Margarito early and often and stop him somewhere around the 8 round mark. Wouldn't be shocked if he got Margarito out of there with a quickness though. If Margarito somehow survives until the final bell, he's going to lose a pretty lopsided decision. I like Manny in this fight and I like him in a big, big way.

As for Margarito not being able to speak English - he's not exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer, so that's not suprising. Pacquiao speaks better English than Margarito.

Brian.

Archie Moore vs Matt Franklin aka Saad Muhamid

Interesting, was listening to Bert Sugar the other day, he disagrees, he said that due to taxes Many said he would only fight in Nevada, Florida, or TX and refused CA. I had heard about the hand wraps but was going by what Bert Sugar stated.

He is a funny interview, he was talking about some of the dumbest questions he had ever heard reporters ask..a couple that come to mind..

After Don Larson threw the perfect game in the World Series, a reporter asked "is this the best game you have ever thrown?"

After Tyson knocked out Peter McNeely in about 15 seconds, a reporter asked the promoter "will there be a rematch?".

Well, Bert Sugar could very well be right about Manny not wanting to fight in California due to taxes (Manny hasn't fought in California for 4 years), but they couldn't fight in the state anyway since Margarito can't get a license there. Hence, it's a moot point. That was the biggest factor in the fight getting placed in Texas, as they were the only state that would license Margarito. If Texas had not licensed Margarito (and they shouldn't have), they would have fought out of the country all together.

Brian.

I wonder how that happened in the first place? A boxer always has a rep in the opponent's dressing room to observe the hand wrapping, I wonder how that slipped by?

It didn't slip by. They caught him before he went to the ring. He had a peice of Plaster of Paris over the knuckles of each hand, hiddin in the wraps. They made him cut the wraps off and rewrap his hands. Then, after the fight, the Athletic commision took him to school.

Turns out that the plaster left some weird stains on his gloves. An investigation turned up photos of the same kind of stains on Margarito's gloves when he fought Miguel Cotto a few months before. So he had done it at least once before, if not more often.

Brian.

The main reason Margarito can't get a license is due to the fact that he went to his CSAC appeal and acted like loading his wraps was no biggie. He's continued to hold the attitude of "Oh tee hee, I guess I got caught on that one huh?" in the press since day one. Doesn't care that he might have killed someone with loaded wraps.

This is the same guy who made fun of Freddie Roach's parkinson's disease the other day. Like I said, not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Brian.

Thanks for the clarification. From the clips I watched, Margarito seems like a dirtbag, I hope Manny puts a beatdown on him.

Very rarely do I make judgements on the personalities of fighters, but Margarito is scum.

And you will most likely get your wish, unless Margarito lands the greatest punch of his entire career or Manny gets instantly old overnight. The whole point of the match in the first place was so people could see Margarito get his ass kicked for what he had done, although Shane Mosley kinda did that already. I seriously doubt that Manny fails to disapoint.

Brian.

well I'm headed out to the doc's to watch the fight. hopefully if it don't last long he'll have a few dancers from the palace over for entertainment

You got it brother, one of these days if I'm up that way we'll have to split the cost of the pay-for-view, and watch us a fight. I know this much, if I lived in the northern part of the state, I wouldn't come down central way either.

That would be fun!

And yes, I avoid going south of Ukiah at all costs. Too bad everyone is getting the hint and moving here from down south. The traffic is getting ridiculous here.

Brian.

PLEASE tell me that I just happen to be watching a stream of this fight from England, and that's why I have English commentators coming out of my speakers. Hopefully those of you watching on PPV are hearing Jim Lampley and crew.

Brian.

Want to know why boxing is failing? I know NO ONE on this undercard, and the fights are blah. I'll be lucky if I don't fall asleep before the main event comes on.

Brian.

Good Lord, John Schorle is reffing a fight on the undercard. If he is the ref for the main event, expect some horrible-ness. Hopefully no one dies tonight.

Brian.

I'm sure when Bob Arum and Co. put this undercard together, they thought "Hey! We'll put a two time Olympic gold medalist on here in a 12 round interim title fight. That should be entertaining!"

This is quite possibly the most boring boxing match I've ever seen. It seems like these two just want to quit fighting and go cherry picking together.

Brian.

A plump Roberto Duran gets more of a pop out of the crowd than the decision for this fight. They read out the scorecards and all you could hear is crickets in Cowboy Stadium.

Brian.

This glasses comercial with around 100 women running in bikini's was better than the entire 12 round interim super bantamweight championship. Props to the broadcast team for calling it what it was - boring as hell.

Brian.

All I want to hear is Margarito spit his mouthpiece, and bit his tongue before he hit the canvas.

Oh God, ANOTHER undercard title fight. Shoot me now.

Brian.

Please Lord, let this fight be violent and quick.

Brian.

Mike Jones just landed like a 57 punch combonation on this Mexican cat. I'm not even joking.

Brian.

The problem with throwing a 57 punch combonation? It makes your arms tired........really tired. Mike Jones now looking insanely pedestrian as this Mexican boxer I can't even name is putting the screws to him.

Brian.

They just showed Freddie Roach watching Margarito getting his hands wrapped. Margarito wasn't making fun of him to his face, shockingly.

Brian.

I heard about that, you have a link to it?

This Mexican cat (Jesus Soto-Karas) is beating a gassed Mike Jones like a redheaded step child. What's awesome is that Soto-Karas is rocking body shots on a very tired man. Good stuff.

Brian.

Check your PM's my friend.

Brian.

Well, that was a pretty clear cut fight for Jesus Soto-Karas. I scored it 6 rounds to 4 for him. Let's see what the donk judges say.

Brian.

And.........Mike Jones wins a majority decision. The crowd boo's him roundly.

That's some hot garbage right there, ladies and gents.

Brian.

It's now time for the main event, Manny Paciquao vs. Antonio Margarito. Get hyped.

Brian.

Remember Iniz Saines (sp?) the hot Mexican reporter who got Mark Sanchez and crew in trouble? Yup, she's interviewing Antonio Margarito right now. It's as epic as you think it is.


Brian.

Interesting, they sing the national anthems of the fighter's countries........while both guys are still backstage.

Brian.

The idiot Mexican fans in the crowd boo the beautiful Phillipino girl singing the Phillipine national anthem. Thankfully, Manny will knock out their man in style tonight to pay them back for that slight.

Brian.

Oh God. Three Cowboy's Cheerleaders are going to sing the American National Anthem.

Brian.

Suprisingly, they don't sound half bad. And they have nice waists. That's always a plus.

Brian.

That was actually pretty good. The fact they were all smoking hot didn't hurt any, obviously.

Brian.

Oh no........Nelly is out there singing his new single. What.....The.....[bleep]? Is this a concert or a fight card? Not only is the song horrible, I've been sitting here almost 3 hours to see this fight. I don't want to hear Nelly right now (or ever), thank you.

Brian.

Now he's singing another song. Somebody shoot me, please.

Brian.

This is so awful that I'm sitting here laughing my ass off. Nelly trying to sing is always funny though.

Brian.

I'd pay anything to see Pacquiao and Margarito come out and stomp the crap out of Nelly right now. I'd rather see that than the fight right now, infact.

Brian.

This pre-fight video package showing Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Foreman, and Ali is MONEY.

Brian.

Here comes Margarito, walking out with his family. How does such a sleezy guy have such a good looking family? Beats me. Obviously his wife has awful tastes......or likes money. Or both.

And he's coming out to Mariachi music, because no self respecting Mexican can come out to a fight to anything else.

Brian.

And here comes Pacman.

Brian.

And.....I miss the second half of the first round due to technical difficulties.

Beautiful.

Brian.

Pacquiao having some difficulty with Margarito's reach, but every time he gets inside he lands a 4 or 5 punch combo.

Brian.

Pacquiao is finding his range. He's catching all of Margarito's one-twos on his gloves and lighting him up like a Christmas tree from the inside.

Brian.

My stream is down. Might be a bit before I can see anymore of the fight, which sucks.

Brian.

Margarito just had Pacquiao backpeddling in a BIG way from some body shots, although it seemed that more than a few strayed low.

Brian.

Margarito is a tough SOB. He's taking his beating like a man.

Brian.

Margaito's left eye is a MESS.

Brian.

At the end of the 10th round, Pacquiao hurt Margarito in a BIG way. Don't know how much longer Margarito is going to be able to hang around. His face is a mess.

Brian.

Pacquiao just wiped his boots off on Margarito in the 11th round. I don't know how Margarito is going to last another 3 minutes. He doesn't even resemble himself at this point.

Brian.

Margarito survives to go the distance. Emphisis on "survive". That was a great fight and a wicked, wicked ass kicking.

Brian.

Manny Pacquiao wins a lopsided unanimous decision. One judge gave him every round, one gave him 11 rounds, another gave him 10 rounds. Pure asskickery right there.

Brian.

But I have to admit, although outgunned Margarito kept coming. Only the weight difference saved him from an early knockout.

If Manny was the same size as Margarito, he would have stopped him with a quickness.

Brian.

It'll be a crime if Mayweather doesn't step up, it will always be a black mark on him if he doesn't

Well, Mayweather is probably going to prison here pretty quick. So at least he's got an excuse now.

Brian.

This says it all right here.



Brian.

Mayweather has always feared Pacquiao that's why there wasn't a fight. That was too much money for anyone with balls to pass up.



At least now we know Floyd is tough enough to beat up his girl friend.

How many times will Margarito be mocking Manny Pacquiao's trainer Freddie Roach, who has Parkinson's disease this week? Karma got his miserable ass.

Thanks for the blow by blow,better than the radio.

Pretty much. I mean c'mon, Josh Clottey knew he wasn't going to beat Pacquiao, but he went in there and got a paycheck anyway. Floyd doesn't think like that though - he thinks that risking putting a loss on his undefeated record would somehow lower his self worth and his place in history. He'd rather fight an old worn out Shane Mosley that he knows he can beat than fight someone like Pacquiao who's going to give him a war and a half and make them both a lot of money. Mayweather has ZERO interest in fighting Pacquiao, and unless the situation arrises that he needs the money, it's never going to happen.



I wonder if he threw two jabs and ran away? Old habits are hard to break, you know.



I don't think Margarito is going to talk about much of anything in the next week. I think he's more worried about the next meal he's going to be drinking through a straw. That fight took 10 years off his life. I can't believe the corner didn't stop that after the 10th round.

Brian.

My pleasure. Glad you enjoyed it.

Brian.

Apparantly Margarito's orbital bone is broken.

In the tenth round, Pacquiao outlanded Margarito by 57 to 9. How the corner didn't throw the towel in after that round is beyond me.

Brian.

Margarito is going in for surgery on his face later this week.

Brian.

good fight. had a good time watching it last night

One of the better "big" fights I've seen in some time.

Brian.

Figured after the 60 Minutes interview Pacman was for real. Several Trainers and Managers said the same. There was also talk about him running for the highest of office in his homeland. He really seems to care and packs a punch like a sledge hammer.

Antonio Margarito's broken orbital bone.


Manny Pacquiao had this to say-



Brian.

Fourth video from the top is where it starts.

Brian.

Pacman vs Duran both in the prime?

Manny must see in slow motion.

An tonio weighed 150 3 pounds over limit, what gives?

Looks like his face did.

Antonio weighed in as jr middleweight, was some kind of waiver in place? Pacman 144

The fight was at 154, but according to the contract Margarito wasn't allowed to weight more than 151. He cut the weight and came into the ring at between 165 and 168. Manny is tiny for that weight class and only weighted 144 without cutting.

Brian.

Pacquiao by murder.

Brian.

LMAO!

Not at 135....Pacman would have met his better.

WCB doesn't believe in the older fighters. It would have been good, Roberto would have closed the distance, but that is as far as I'm willing to go.

He would have closed Pacman's eyes.....Duran was a great boxer, defensive skills outstanding and he had power and stamina. And he's the bigger dude.

No way Pacman wins against Duran. (Sugar Ray couldn't outbox Duran)

Hands of stone hung in with Marvin past his prime and at middle weight.

But didn't hang so well with Hearns..go figure.

Got caught at the very end of a Hearns full extended straight right. Lights Out!!!

You're talking to someone who thinks Ali, Frazier and Norton are Gods.

But don't try to tell me that Sugar Ray Robinson or Roberto Duran or whoever from 20, 40 or 70 years ago is going to beat an elite modern fighter. Go watch some tape on Duran and then watch some tape on Pacquiao and tell me how Duran is going to beat him up.

Brian.

Elite? It's all in the temperament and work ethic, mortals are mortal, 147 is 147. One of the reasons you think the three named fighters are gods, is becasue the heavyweights have sucked for so long. One reason? Average heavy went 190 to 210 years ago, now they are all 230-250 with no stamina or skill.

I just don't now anyone can discount a Ray Robinson against ANY fighter of the same weight.

If you think Fraizer and Ali were gods, does this mean you believe they could take today's modern heavy? What does that say about your argument?

It's all in the technique.

Brian.

Heavyweight has sucked for a long, long time. Ali in his prime would have cleaned up today's division, yesterday's divison, or any heavyweight division. He had the tools.

Brian.

Floyd gonna fight Pacman?

Nope.

Unless he gets in a financial or contractual bind, no.

Brian.

Speed trumps technique, Ali can tell you that.

We debated this before, this old timer had Robinson at 126-1 when he fought Lamotta the third time. 2:20 into the clip

This chit again? He was 41-1 at that point. Read his record.

Brian,

Watching those clips now.

THAT, is boxing.

You are not listening, that was after Lamotta beat him the first time, that he went to 41-1.. then he ran his record to 126-1 until losing again to Randy Turpin in 1951

I got a box of bullets with your name on them.

I get the Lomatta fights confused, but the point I'm making is that at one point he was 126-1, do you dispute that?

Man he was something,

on Feb 5 1943 he lost to Lamotta.

On Feb 19 1943 he beat a fighter named Jackie Wilson.

Then on Feb 26 1943 he fought Lamotta again and beat him..three fights in a month!

Robinson was 85-0 as an amateur with 69 of those victories coming by way of knockout, 40 in the first round.

He turned professional in 1940 at the age of 19 and by 1951 had a professional record of 128-1-2 with 84 knockouts.

Robinson held the world welterweight title from 1946 to 1951, and won the world middleweight title in the later year. He retired in 1952, only to come back two and a half years later and regain the middleweight title in 1955.

He then became the first boxer in history to win a divisional world championship five times, a feat he accomplished by defeating Carmen Basilio in 1958 to regain the middleweight championship. Robinson was named "fighter of the year" twice: first for his performances in 1942, then nine years and over 90 fights later, for his efforts in 1951.

He defeated other Hall of Fame fighters such as Jake LaMotta, Carmen Basilio, Gene Fullmer, Carl 'Bobo' Olson, Henry Armstrong, Rocky Graziano and Kid Gavilan. Robinson engaged in 200 pro bouts, and his professional career lasted nearly 26 years.

You said he was 126-1 when he fought Lomatta the third time, which is false. I corrected you. Now you're moving the goal posts.

If you're not counting draws and No Contests, I wouldn't be suprised if he went 126-1 at one time or another. He was on the bum of the week program there for a few years and was racking up wins left and right. He didn't have much of a choice back then because boxers weren't paid like they are now. He most likely never made more than $100 a fight for long stretches of his career, hence the reason he fought so often. Archie Moore did the same thing. Hence the gigantic record.

Brian.

So what, what was it then, the fourth or fifth time he fought Lamotta he was 126-1? You get my point. 126-1, whether is was the third time they met or the fifth. All I can tell you is you are about the only one who knows boxing who will not put Ray Robinson in the top five of all time in any weight class.

I mean google top ten boxers of all time, can they all be wrong?

He'd be somewhere in there, along with Ali, Moore, Louis, ect.

If I ever said otherwise, I must have been in a mood to jerk your chain.

Brian.

[bleep]

I've been called worse, and deserved it.

Brian.

Pushing Pacman vs Robinson isn't doable.....Robinson was a welterweight/middleweight fighter. Pacman is smaller. In other words, Robinson would have slaughtered him at 147.

Duran vs Pacman at 135 would simply add to the Duran legend and cement his place in history as the greatest lighweight ever. 7 years as lightweight champ during the 70's is unbelieveable....

Lets Get It On !!!!

If Lamotta had a big punch to go along with his style he might not have ever lost a fight.

You mean something like this guy??

Marciano accomplished a lot for his size. I read somewhere, after he knocked out an aging Louis he went back to the dressing room and cried instead of celebrating.

Maybe the best ever at under 190 pounds

.......because Robinson has been dead for 21 years.

Brian.

I wonder why this comes to mind every time I open this thread?



Brian.

Brian.

Robinson was just to big for Pacman. Duran was to physical. Both would win against Pacman. Armstrong, too for that matter. Bad dudes.

I can remember the first time I ever saw Manny fight, I kept thinking, he's in trouble when he tires out, which surely he will.

Well, we'll never know if he could go 15, will we?

Would Jack Johnson beat Manny Pacquiao? How about Abe Lincoln? Teddy Roosevelt?

Brian.

I guess these new super duper high 'technique' fighters got it made, 12 rounds max. I reckon we need to not go to the top of the list that could whip Pacman.....Boom Boom Mancini could have put it on him.

Nooo, now you have gone too far. I liked Mancini, but pac-man would have chewed him up

Boom-Boom was another fighter that had the heart but not the punch.

Ah, don't overlook the 'Boom Boom'. Had a good chin, too. Killing the Korean Kim changed his life.....Mancini vs Pacman would have been a war.

Jesus Christ, it's like I'm living in the twilight zone.

Brian.

Tell that to Duk Koo Kim.

Brian.

You left out a word.....'it's like I'm living in the BOXING twilight zone.'



You Pacmanites are a tight group! Maybe some day he'll fight a fighter that is ranked somewhere in the top 100 (Mancini isn't). Until then, he's living in the same world Holmes and Tyson did. Although it is impressive moving between the weight divisions. If you can name one champion he's beaten that would have beat Robinson/Duran, or even Leonard I'd like to hear it.

It took many punches to kill Kim-13 rounds worth. You got punchers and you got guys that beat u up with many punches.Duran puncher at 135,not so much at `147-154.

I believe it was Muhammad Ali that said, "You can only try to be the best in your time." Pacquiao is that, in spades.

Brian.

[sarcasm]Yeah, the punch that nearly knocked Kim completley out of the ring and ultimatley killed him was weak. [/sarcasm]

Brian.

Sorry, just trying to make a point.

Fair enough, but the next time you try to point to someone as being pillow fisted, try not to pick the guy who beat another man to death inside the ring. Kinda pokes a hole in your whole argument.

Brian.

We have no argument here.....

The greatest champions could take a punch and come back to deliver one....granite jaws are mandatory.

Muhammad Ali had a granite jaw and look where it got him. Sometimes being too durable can come back to bite you in the ass in a big, big way.

Brian.

That's true, but if you're a fighter and want a championship you need to be able to take a punch.....Jerry Quarry's injuries were worse than Ali's.

Well, Jerry Quarry took a LOT of shots in his prime and later became a punching bag for whoever needed a leg up in the division for the last 5 years or so of his career.

On the other hand, George Chuvalo took some of the worst beatings in combat sports history, and if you watch him talk you'd never guess this guy was ever a boxer. He talks just fine and is healthier than most men his age. I think God took it easy on him after what happened to his family, to be honest.

Brian.

Have you heard Hearns lately?

What happened to his family?

Nothing done in the last 10 years or so.

Why? I hope he's well.

Brian.

Chuvalo lost three sons - one to suicide, two to drugs. After their second son died, his wife commited suicide as well.

Brian.

I remember watching that fight.

Sick, on many levels.

Kim left a note in his hotel room before the fight that said "live or die".

Korean prize fighters are a unique bunch. They either want to win, or die trying.

It should be noted that the ref commited suicide after the fight. He felt Kim's blood was on his hands.

Brian.

Punch drunk.

He damned well should have, as he had it there.

Me too, that fight should have been stopped by Kim's corner long before Kim was knocked out.....it certainly changed boxing. Championships aren't the same at 12 rounds vs 15.

Damn!!!

Kim was no glass jaw, he took a lot of punishment. It could actually be said his granite jaw is what did him in.

Mancini didn't handle it so well either.

He was a warrior. Sorry to hear that he's in a bad way.

Hagler is a bit mush mouthed as well these days. Duran looks like an old woman. Ray Leonard is the only guy out of that class that is still in one peice.

Brian.

That's one of the things I really don't like about boxing. In MMA most times, if you're in a bad way, the ref will have ZERO hesitation at stepping in. If anything, the referees are almost too protectionist at times. It's just the opposit in boxing. Unless you're getting knocked down every 30 seconds, or you're just covering up and getting teed off on, the ref isn't going to stop it. Look at what happened in the Pacquiao vs. Margarito fight. As long as Margarito could see out of his eye (or claim to), the ref wasn't going to stop that fight. And he didn't. Now Margarito has to have major surgery and likely docked 10 years off his life expectancy.

Brian.

The sad thing is that Kim's death had nothing to do with it being a 15 round fight. It had to do with the ref and Kim's corner not stopping the fight when they should have. But Kim kept marching forward and swinging haymakers that missed by three feet so hey, he must be fine to keep fighting. Idiots.

Brian.

If Kim had a glass jaw, he would have been fine. Would have been put down and out within a couple rounds, and would have lived to fight another day.

Being insanely tough is what got him killed, sadly.

Brian.

That was essentially the end of his career, for all intents and purposes. Never looked the same after that.

Probably for the best though. He seems to be in good health and does a lot of bit parts in movies and TV these days. I've seen a few interviews with him and he's a real sweetheart.

Brian.

I think he eventually came to terms with it. I saw a very good documentary on the whole thing, it was very interesting.

A couple of memories of the show..

Before the fight Ray was in the locker room, and Kim was in another, separated by only a wall. Kim was so fired up before the fight, he was pounding on the lockers, yelling and screaming his ass off, banging away. Ray said he could hear the commotion through the wall, and years later during the documentary, admitted it scared the hell out of him. He said to his manager, "this guy isn't going to go easy, I'm going to have to hit him a lot".(sic)

He talked about having to sit down with his kids and watch the fight so they could understand how and what happened. They continuously came home from school asking Dad why other kids were calling their father a murderer and killer.

After the death of Kim, Mancini traveled to Korea to meet with Kim's wife, and made sure she was financially cared for.

Years later when that movie about Kim came out, dignitaries in Korea invited Mancini to the opening. When Ray walked in to sit down and watch the movie, the crowd erupted in a standing ovation. It seems they had been moved by Mancini's actions since the death if Kim.

That is much of what I remember of the documentary, maybe it can be found on Youtube.

Really, none of what happened was Mancini's fault. When you're a prize fighter, it's not in your job description to go out and look after the other guy's well being. That's the ref and the corner's job. You go out and fight from the first bell to the last bell. Taking it easy on a guy out of compassion is a one way ticket to getting hurt. So you go out there and try to get him out of the ring ASAP.

And honestly, it's hard for a fighter to tell in the heat of battle what exactly is going on. Look at how often a fighter misguages the extent he has his oppenet hurt. A lot of times a guy will go for the kill thinking he's got his opponent hurt; other times, he'll hurt a guy and be the only one in the arena to not notice.

But I'm glad to hear Mancini took care of Kim's widow. Max Baer did the same thing after he killed a man in the ring, despite what that "Cinderella Man" movie would lead you to believe. It bothered Baer the rest of his life.

Brian.

I just rewatched "Tyson" tonight. If you haven't seen it, do yourself a favor and check it out (if you use Netflix, you can watch it for free online).

Mike Tyson is an interesting character study. It's fascinating to watch him evolve from the brash young man who first won the title, to the unstable savage who bit off a chunk of Holyfield's ear, to the guy who lost all interest in fighting and just showed up to get beat up and cash a paycheck.

Brian.

I would like to see a true movie about Max.

I watched a PBS special on the second Joe vs. Max fight. They spent 90 minutes painting Max as some sort of sadistic Nazi SOB, and then in the last thirty seconds of the program they go, "Oh yeah, he helped some Jews escape capture."

There's nothing I hate worse than the abandonment of facts in favor of following a narrative.

Brian.

What about a true movie about Max Baer?

Ahhh, I got my Max's mixed up.

That would be nice. Baer certainly deserves such treatment after the hatchet job they pulled on his reputation after "Cinderella Man".

I don't know if he deserves it on any other basis than that though. He only had three historically signifigant fights - against Primo Carnera, Jim Braddock, and Joe Louis, and he lost two of those fights. He's more interesting from the angle that he was one of the first boxers to get serious attention from Hollywood, and played in a few movies.

Nice guy though and certainly not the heartless killer he was portrayed as in "Cinderella Man". If anything, the guy was a huge teddy bear and wasn't agressive enough to be one of the best fighters out there. He gave his belt away to Braddock by being insanely passive.

Brian.

It's looking like Manny Pacquiao's next fight is going to be with........wait for it..........Shane Mosley.

Looks like we're going to get to see Manny pitch another 12 round shut out. Can't say I'm horribly excited, as Shane Mosley is long past being a top fighter. He barely held Sergio Mora to a draw a couple months back. Don't think he's got much left in the tank for Manny.

Brian.

When is Holyfield gonna retire?

I don't think Mosely will win, but he is much better equipped than Margarito. Quicker, hits harder, if he stuns Manny he has the tools to keep him hurt. Manny was able to spin away from Margarito much too easy. Downside is, that if Mosely is getting the worst of the exchanges, he won't keep pressing the fight as did Margarito...could turn out to be a real bore of a fight.

When they stop licensing him.

Which should have happened a long, long time ago.

Brian.

The Mosley of a few years ago would have been a challenging fight for Pacquiao. The Mosley of today is just going to stand around and do nothing while Manny outpoints him.

Brian.

i would like to see manny fight marquez again

Sugar Shane was one fast guy in his day. Another fighter takeing to many punches for a payday.

Unless Marquez puts on some weight, I don't think we'll ever see that happen.

Brian.

Shane Mosley is a lot like Mike Tyson and Roy Jones, in that they all relied on speed and athletism as their main weapons. And when they got old and slowed down, they were screwed. They don't have a style like Bernard Hopkins which relies purely on technique and ring savvy.

Brian.

Think Mike will try again?

Paul Williams knocked the [bleep] out by Sergio Martinez. damn thats going to be the punch of the year

If he needs the money. He's got no business being in there though. He's just going to get beat up. Last time out they put him in there with a complete bum and he still got his ass kicked.

Brian.

I heard about that. Need to hunt down a video. Suprised Williams got blown out of the water.

Brian.

Wow.



Brian.

Hello!!

The Williams vs. Martinez KO.



Brian.

man that was a pretty punch. my doctor buddy that i watch the fights with is from Argentina so I'll be hearing about that punch for sometime to come

I liked how he faked out Williams by turning away and throwing the punch from outside Williams' peripheral visison. Williams never saw the punch coming, hence the reason it knocked him cold.

Brian.

yep you could see him trying to set that punch up in round one as well

I guess Martinez is now the lineal middleweight champion?

A fight with Pacquiao would be oh so appropriate, but that's never going to happen. Gotta fight Margarito and Mosley and make that paper, dontchaknow.

Brian.

there's been talk of Martinez coming down to 154 to make that fight with manny

I would be so down for that fight.

Brian.

Pick?

Pacquiao on points.

Brian.

Brian , What ever happened to that young middleweight 20-25 years ago that went to jail for rape?

the one from San Antonio? can't remember his name but he got out and within a couple yrs was convected of another rape

You just described a large portion of boxing, sadly. That's like asking, "Whatever became of that football player who shot someone accidently?"

Brian.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=1848311

Updated: July 28, 2004, 10:40 PM ET
Boxer previously served 16 years for rape

* Email
* Print

Associated Press

SAN ANTONIO -- Boxer Tony Ayala, known as "El Torito," was sentenced to 10 years in prison Wednesday for violating terms of his probation.

State District Judge Maria Teresa Herr handed down the sentence to Ayala for speeding near Woodlawn Lake earlier this month and possessing drug paraphernalia. Ayala refused to submit to a drug test.

Ayala, 41, was on probation from a 2001 conviction for burglary with intent to commit aggravated assault after he broke into a San Antonio home. He was shot once in the shoulder during the incident.

"We're really despondent," Jimmy Parks, the boxer's attorney, said in a story in Wednesday's online edition of the San Antonio Express-News. "We're really down about what happened. The probation conditions he faced were more onerous than they would have been for anybody else."

The boxer has had several other brushes with the law since returning to San Antonio in 1999 after serving a 16-year prison sentence in New Jersey on a rape conviction. He had a promising boxing career before he entered jail at age 20, and he resumed the sport again with mixed results after his release.

In December 2002, he was jailed on accusations of assaulting a 14-year-old girl. A motion to revoke his probation was withdrawn after the girl admitted she lied.

In November 2003, Ayala was jailed again for speeding. At the time of the traffic stop, he had four outstanding traffic warrants.


Copyright 2004 by The Associated Press

Sounds like a real winner.

Brian.

Ayala?

Never mind, I see somebody answered. Didn't he rape his old teacher first go around?

That is the pos I was thinking of. Thanks! Think he was called babby bull.

What a [bleep] peice of work.



Dude got a slap on the wrist for breaking into the home of a woman and getting shot. WTF? What did they think he broke in to do, ask for a cup of sugar? Too bad she didn't hit him between the eyes instead of in the shoulder.

Brian.

The sound of Roy's head bouncing off the canvas is mildly disturbing, to say the least.



Brian.

Brian.

Here's more of the Ayala story. As a baby his father (and trainer) would tickle him until laughing, then would pinch him until he cried. Raised to be a bad azz and in the ring he was....I mean he was going to be great. Awesome power and speed. Tough dude, but screwed up early by a father that was a major flake.

Brian.

Maybe he will stay in jail for life .

He's destined for a short life.

You need to learn why he's become what he is, it's one hail of a story. I've got my 18 month old grand baby with me and I can't imagine teaching her what baby Tony Ayala was taught......several family members and 'friends' of Tony deserve life behind bars.

Family of monsters!

Mayorga, another punk. Only fighter I have ever seen enter the ring smoking a cigarette.

Smokin and half drunk.

That's his shtick.

If you want to think he's a punk, please do so for legitmate reasons. Don't worry, there's plenty of them.

Brian.

Lots of people have chitty childhoods, and they don't turn into rapists. This whole, "Well he had a bad childhood, that's why he turned out the way he did" really grates my nerves. He did what he did because he was a horny little bastard who thought he could take what he wanted by force.

Brian.

You obviously read sympathy for Ayala in what I posted and you just as obviously missed what I said.....if you want to guarantee a monster start training early. You'll have one. I suppose I do have sympathy for babies exposed to such.

You haven't heard about the abuse or the heroin he grew up in, did you know he kicked Welterweight Pipino Cuevas's azz at age 15 while sparring the much older Cuevas?......Ayala is a San Antone legend.

Ayala could have had it all, but he earned jail. He was in the same class as Hearns, Leornard, Hagler and even Duran. One of those once in a generation fighters maybe. I think he would have kicked Hagler's azz. To bad he's as dangerous out of the ring as he was in it......

He would have had some real work kickin Haglar's azz.

Didn't read all the posts, but no clips on the number 1 KO champ, Archie Moore. Great video.

Brian.

Brian.

If he ever gets out of jail he will be back in again no doudt.No woman is safe around this guy.

real dirt bag blamed everyone and everything for his problems but himself

Wheelchairbandit, thanks for the Archie Moore video. I think he was the greatest of all time.

I understand that, only a punk would set such an example.

Drank a 40 in between rounds a guy told me.

Why does a boxer have to set an example? He's a prize fighter for crying out loud. He ain't the Pope.

Brian.

One of the greatest. The guy lost to a lot of bums in his career, mostly due to the fact that he fought 3 to 4 times a month for years and had some off nights.

Great fighter though and a swell guy out of the ring. A very good coach as well.

Brian.

Think Floyd would have beat Archie in his prime?

Yes. Archie shouldn't have been fighting at heavyweight to begin with. He had trouble with the power of a lot of light heavies.

Brian.

juan manuel marquez and michael katsidis rematch

Aren't they fighting for the first time tonight?

Brian.

yeah your right i misread the fight description

I favor Marquez on points.

Brian.

should be a good fight

looks like it might be three good fights. i gotta go with Marquez also but i think he might take katsidis out with a tko since he has a problems with cuts

I'm watching this on a stream from Brazil.

Brian.

Well, apparantly I'm watching the Andre Berto - Freddie Hernandez fight. Please tell me this is the co-main to the Marquez fight.

Brian.

glad they didn't steal the fight from on that first bout

yep first fight was good 13-1 underdog won. main event after this fight

Welp, that didn't last long. Berto gets him out of there in the first round.

Brian.

Man, Berto threw that right hand from his Grandma's house.

Brian.

Berto wants to fight Pacquiao, Cotto and Margarito. What a shock that is!

Brian.

If Katsidis knew what he looked like in this getup, he wouldn't wear it.

Brian.

A Mariachi band live in the arena? Sure, why not.

Brian.

First round for Marquez.

Brian.

Second round for Marquez. Katsidis isn't going to make it the distance if he keeps fighting like this.

Brian.

Katsidis knocks down Marquez! It's a fight now. Katsidis wins the third round.

Brian.

damn i like to watch Marquez fight

Fourth round is close. Favor Katsidis for that one.

Brian.

He's blood and guts, for certain.

Brian.

Missed the last 30 seconds of the 5th, but favor Marquez there.

Brian.

6th round is too close to call. Even.

Brian.

Another close, competitive round. Marquez landed the cleaner, harder punches though, so I'll give it to him. Would hate to be a judge for this fight.

Brian.

8th round for Marquez. Katsidis is starting to slow down some.

Brian.

The ref waves off the fight in the 9th round in the middle of a complete ass kicking. Marquez wins by TKO late in the 9th.

Brian.

Katsidis slowed down in a big way, and when Marquez turned it on, he didn't have a way to defend himself.

Brian.

i would like to see marquez and manny fight again

The offical time is 2:14 of the 9th round.

Brian.

Marquez is 37 years old. He just went life and death with Katsidis. Probably in Marquez's best interest to stay at 135 and make a few more big paydays before he hangs it up.

Brian.

Larry Merchant bores me to death.

Brian.

Larry should have retired years ago. Along with his two co-horts.

I like Jim Lampley. All the other old bastards like Merchant, Bernstein and that crew need to go suck on a cigar and leave boxing.

I still can't believe Ferdie Pacheco got a job as a boxing commentator. What a joke.

Brian.

Jim still has not recovered from all the money he lost on Liston Clay fights.

You sure you don't mean Larry? Jim would have just been a kid for the Clay-Liston fights.

Jim Lampley is a flaming lib, but I still enjoy his work.

Brian.

Jim lost money paying off his ex girlfriend he was beating up on

I never heard this story.

Brian.

about a yr back he was arrested for domestic violence

Went looking, found this.



Old rich guy with a young beauty queen. Not really suprised it fell apart in epic fashion.

Brian.

wow didn't realize it had been that long since it happened

Larry is the guy ,sorry Larry Merchant. I think Smokkin Joe said he put a pile of cash on his fights as well.

Really? I have never been able to stand the guy. I find myself many times asking, "well then why don't you get in there Lampley, show us how it's done?".

One of my favorite fights was Iran Barkley and Duran. Do you remember Danny "Little Red" Lopez? He thought getting knocked down a time or two was a prerequisite for winning. Tough kid I think he was a featherweight.

What about Salvador Sanjez?Damn !Duran fought from ltwt to lthvy,what a fighter.

He writes for Huffington Post from time to time.

And, a commentator's job is to commentate. That involves critique. Don't go all Roy Jones on me and pull the "well you don't fight, so you can't say they're doing it wrong" card. If the guy is making a blatant technical error and getting punished for it, it doesn't take someone of the craft to point it out.

Brian.

He got inducted into the International Boxing Hall of Fame this year.

Brian.

Guys who think they know a lot about fighting sometimes bet a lot of money on fights. More often than not, they lose their ass.

Also, anyone who would have bet Liston in either of the Clay fights would have to be a blithering idiot. Liston was a huge favorite in both fights, and you would have had to put a lot of money on the line to get a rather small return if Liston had won.

Brian.

boxing is one sport i will not bet on

I would never bet on a combat sport. Not only can ANYTHING happen (like a fluke injury), but you have incompetent state employees judging the fights.

Brian.

The only fight I ever bet on was Tyson vs Douglas,I took the odds.

Did you play it cool like you really know boxing, or jump up and down screaming "I won, I won!"

Was watching a documentary late last night, and it turns out that Larry Merchant was one of the first investors in Cloverlay, which was Frazier's backing firm.

Brian.

Larry got kinda jerky in the Joe and Oscar fights.

Damn near passed out from those odds 50-1,all I had was A c-note to put down.

As he should have.

Brian.

Holmes vs Holyfield, both at the top of the game?

That would be hard to call. It would probably look like Holmes vs. Norton and be very close to call. Would favor Holyfield on points simply because he pushed a harder pace and was a bit busier than Holmes, but it would be a coin flip type fight.

Brian.

young Tyson vs young Frazier?

Train wreck.

Do not blink on that one.

It would look something like the first Foreman vs. Frazier fight. Joe Frazier was a horribly slow started who usually took 5 rounds before he could find his groove. Tyson was a very fast starter with sick power.

Not a good combo for Smokin Joe.

Brian.

Brian, Well said! Joe kinda like a slow steady pull.

Not sure who would have won, but either outcome wouldn't have surprised me. Fraizer was tailor made for Foreman, the perfect height for a 6'4" fighter who throws power from his hip.


In his prime, Tyson never faced anyone with Joe's head and upper body movement, hell Ali missed him more than he hit him.

Joe Frazier usually did nothing but eat solid shots from guys for the first 5 rounds. For crying out loud, he went life and death with Oscar Bonavena and got dropped twice in the second round.

Tyson would finish him in the first few rounds of the fight. That's absolutley the worst style matchup possible for Frazier. Foreman took advantage of Frazier both times they fought due to the fact that Foreman is a fast starter with serious power. It had nothing to do with his height, and had everything to do with both men's tendancies as a fighter.

Brian.

Shavers vs Frazier

Amazing how we can't agree on a damned thing about boxing. Answer me this, up until Buster Douglas, who ever hit Tyson with a good shot, the caliber of which Fraizer would be able to deliver?

A lot of Tyson success was via intimidation, something he lost the night the lights went out in Tokyo. Fraizer was not the kind to be intimidated. We learned after Douglass that Tyson had little heart, and less chin.

Like most things sports related, a fantastic offense will cover your ass for having a poor defense about 70% of the time.



It had more to do with Tyson not taking training seriously after Cus D'Mato died than some sort of great exposure into his style. Tyson's entire style is predicated on being a faster, stronger athlete than his opponent. When Tyson no longer took training seriously and spent most of his time getting high and screwing, he ceased to be a better athlete than his contemporaries. He took away his best tools by not hitting the gym as hard.

Brian.

Jesus Christ, do you have a hard on for seeing Frazier get flattened?

Power punchers who came out swinging were Frazier's achilles heel. Boxers like Ali or brawlers like Chuvalo, Frazier chewed up and spit out. He always struggled against guys who came right after him and who had serious power.

Kind of the same problem that Norton had, although Frazier was durable enough to survive against everyone but Foreman. Norton wasn't.

Brian.

We both like watching it, and we both like talking about it. Ain't that enough?

Brian.

Enough for me,that is why I keep firing ? Cooney vs Morrison

Two guys with serious power and very, very average chins. Whoever lands first. Would favor Morrison by a hair simply because he had a bit better technique and a serious left hook. Either guy could get lamped in that matchup though.

Brian.

Cooney hit ole George harder then most folks realize. Wonder sometimes if Cooney did not try very hard against Spink tough.

Cooney popped George with a good shot, but then George has never been hard to hit.

Cooney's problem is that he reacted very poorly to being hit. Spinks was no great knockout artist, but he made Cooney fall apart once he started landing on him.

Brian.

Why do the white guys do so well in the cage fights and not as well in in the boxing ring?

blacks and mexicans have harder heads

Because MMA is more grappling based at heart, and lots of white American males come from a wrestling background.

Brian.

LMAO!!

Most whites don't/won't spend the time or energy getting their azzes kicked boxing for a living......even when you win you lose.

But they have no issues about getting beat up in MMA?

Brian.

I'd rather lose a wrestling match (choke hold) than get my brains beat out (boxing).....

You can get your brains beat out in MMA too.

Worse, it can happen when you're pinned on your back. Not a fun feeling.

Brian.

You bet, but in boxing it's every fight and the number of punches over a few fights are much more punishing.....I've never seen a punch drunk cage fighter.

Apparantly you haven't seen a recent interview with Chuck Liddell....

Brian.

No, I havent' and he would make....one punch drunk cage fighter. Brief, short fights with a few heavy punches landing all over the body is not the same as professional boxing with the head the main target.

I think white guys give up on boxing early, or they have parents that persuade them it ain't the smartest thing to do. They'd rather play golf, or baseball. Me, too. Unless there's a ghetto story.....

You're forgetting it's four ounce gloves in MMA, and the vast amount of shots landed are power shots to the head.

I can run off a list a mile long of punch drunk MMA fighters - Liddell, Gary Goodridge, Kazushi Sakuraba, Wanderlei Silva, Don Frye, Matt Lindland, and Jens Pulver all immediatley come to mind.

The reason boxing has more punch drunk fighters is due to the length of time boxing has been a major sport. MMA has only been around in a sanctioned form for 10 years, and has only been popular for 5 years.

Brian.

I don't see how it's possible for cage fighters to have the head injuries boxers do....they wrestle more than punch.

Apparantly, you don't watch much MMA.

Brian.

I really can't stand it.

Let's keep it that way.

Brian.

I can see why some would like to watch the unathletic wrestle on the ground like high school kids.....some just can't box.

HeHe. Would that be non-athletic?

Yeah, every time I watch Georges St. Pierre nail a superman jab to leg kick combo, I think "Man, this guy isn't athletic at all."

Brian.

What was that athletic Japanese dude that fought Ali on his back....sort of sums it all up.

Antonio Inoki, who wasn't a fighter but a pro wrestler.

That was supposed to be a pro wrestling match, but a bunch of boxing scribes got on Ali for defaming the good name of boxing by doing pro wrestling when he was still heavyweight champion, so he made serious rule changes literaly hours before the event. The fight would be real, only Inoki couldn't go for any takedowns, and could only kick while one knee was on the ground. They thought it would force Inoki into a boxing match. They were wrong.

Brian.

Well, I think that farce was more exciting than today's cage fights.....of course, Ali was involved.

When the goal is who can get to the ground the quickest it loses the appeal of a skilled sport. Trip, fall and have someone jump on you ain't skill.....boxing gets a count, or standing 8 and the fight resumes on your feet.

Dempsey would be a champion cage fighter.

No. Not even close.



You should stop talking about MMA, because you obviously don't know jack about it, and it's beginning to become embarrasing.



Well, he was one of the earliest proponents of cross training in multiple martial arts, and even wrote a book on the subject.

Brian.

I know enough about it to know it's boring.....unless you're a wrestling fan. Maybe if they start jumping from the top rope...er, pole...I'd watch.

How much do those top MMA fighters make per fight?

This thread is the sad reality of boxing; the sport is dead. As soon as you bring up boxing, the discussion immediately turns to MMA. America has spoken and MMA is the fighting sport. Boxing will always have a devoted following (me) and MMA is the fighting sport of the future like it or not (and I don't care for it).

Well, of course you're wrong....we need a couple of great fighters in heavy divisions. Pacman can't carry the sport....a great heavyweight can.

Depends on the fighter. A big star like Georges St. Pierre or Brock Lesnar is going to bring in around $500,000 as their base pay, and then on top of that they get a cut of the pay per view (usually $2-$4 per purchase over a certain buyrate level). Then they get sponsorships, which sometimes can add up to be more than their base pay.

But your average guy just breaking into the big show is going to make between 5 and 5 ($5,000 to show, $5,000 to win) to 12 and 12, depending on what kind of resume and name value they bring. Your kind of mid-tier guy is going to make around 30 and 30. You can double that if he's a promising heavyweight.

Brian.

Actually, MMA has kept boxing alive. People like me who never would have watched boxing otherwise, suddenly became interested because I started watching MMA and enjoyed the striking aspect of it. So I started watching boxing and kick boxing. I know a LOT of other MMA fans who now follow both those sports closely.

It's all fight sport and one supports the other. Heck, MMA has kept scholastic wrestling alive.

Brian.

I'd rather watch Pacman than any heavyweight.

Period.

Brian.

On a boxing note, last night I watched the replay of last Saturday night's Khan-Maidana fight. Quite entertaining; Maidana was just one punch shy of winning it, and it's too bad he couldn't find that last good one. He was a warrior, and Khan will be hurting for a month.

I didn't catch that fight due to the Georges St. Pierre vs. Josh Koscheck card being on, but I heard it was a war and a half. I'll need to check it out online.

Lotta fight of the year talk floating around after that fight.

Brian.

Well, that's what I mean....there aren't any heavyweights worth watching now.

There's the Klitschko brothers and David Haye, none of whom will fight each other.

Other than that, there hasn't been a relevant fight at heavyweight since Lennox Lewis retired.

Brian.

Are you gonna watch the new movie The Fighter?

If I'm not still sick tomorrow, I'm going to go see it. Otherwise I'll see it next week.

Brian.

Yeah, that cagefighting. So boring.



Brian.

Sick? Flu?

It's either some form of the flu, or I'm having a terrible reaction to one of my medications.

Nothing I haven't dealt with before, but it's a PIA when you want to go do stuff.

Brian.

Get well fast!!

Thank you. I shall try.

Brian.

Looks like a Russian ballet.....is it a Russian ballet?

When they start kicking people in the head in a Russian ballet, I'll start watching it.

Brian.

Just got back from "The Fighter". Solid movie, and don't be suprised if Christian Bale gets an Oscar for best supporting actor.

The movie is more about Mickey Ward's screwed up white trash family than his boxing career, but never the less it's a good movie. They don't include the Gatti fights, which is a shame, but it's still worth watching.

Brian.

No Gatti Fights? Damn!!

Ageless Hopkins stalks a historic win
Kevin Iole


Nearly every time he speaks in public prior to a fight these days, Bernard Hopkins is asked about his age more than he is about his opponent.

Whether he�s facing an in-his-prime Jean Pascal, as he is on Saturday in a Showtime-televised bout for the World Boxing Council light heavyweight title in Quebec City, or if he�s facing a long-in-the-tooth Roy Jones Jr., as he did in April, the subject matter never changes: Why, he�s asked, are you fighting at your age and when do you plan to retire?

It may seem like a logical question. If Hopkins defeats Pascal on Saturday, he�ll become the oldest world champion in the history of boxing. Hopkins turns 46 on Jan. 15, less than a month after Saturday�s championship bout.
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Unlike most fighters in their 40s, Bernard Hopkins is doing things on his terms.
(Getty Images)

It makes sense to ask those questions of Erik Morales, a 34-year-old who has taken tremendous punishment during his career.

And someone should ask them of 30-year-old Paul Malignaggi, a popgun puncher whose quickness is now gone and who can�t avoid the heavy blows he once deftly slipped.

But Hopkins?

No.

Hopkins may be 45, but he�s got the body of a 30-year-old and the mind of a 20-year-old. He�s as sharp as ever mentally and there have been few craftier men in any profession than Bernard Hopkins.

He didn�t look particularly good in his April win over Jones, and even his close friend, business partner and promoter, Richard Schaefer of Golden Boy Promotions, suggested he had reached the end of the line.

But Hopkins wasn�t getting beaten up. He may not be the most television-friendly fighter at this stage of his career, though in truth, he never was. He was never the kind of fighter who relished slugfests and was never willing to take two punches to deliver one. In those regards, he was the antithesis of the late Arturo Gatti. He has used his mind when he�s fought and, because of that, he still has his mind to use, fully functioning, fully capable.

It�s a point he stressed repeatedly when, invariably, question after question on a recent media conference call addressed his age.

�Boxers don�t retire from the ring,� Hopkins said. �Whether it�s good or bad, the ring has to retire the fighter from the boxing ring. � I�ve got to be probably � without anybody on this phone ever taking a punch in their lives � in better shape than 90 percent of the people on this phone. I don�t know who�s listening to this phone call, but if you�re honest with yourself, take the person on the phone to the side and I�ve got 24 years of boxing and over 60 fights. No one on this phone ever had to write that I got my ass handed to me in any fight out of 60 fights. That�s not bragging. That�s the facts. That�s because I�m protected by somebody bigger than anybody that writes for any big network or any newspaper. It�s bigger than me. It�s bigger than you.�

Whether it�s divine intervention or simply his ability to sense what punches are coming and how to avoid them that�s allowed him to survive a lengthy career intact can be saved for another debate.

What�s not for debate is that Hopkins is still of his right mind and is at no greater risk today than he was when he first won the middleweight title in 1995.

After excruciatingly close back-to-back losses to Jermain Taylor in middleweight championship fights in 2005 � bouts that many believe Hopkins deserved to win � he took a 2006 bout with Antonio Tarver at light heavyweight in what he said would be his final match.

Hopkins walked to the ring before that bout in Atlantic City, N.J., to the strains of Frank Sinatra crooning, �My Way.� Hopkins� way has been very different from 99.99 percent of his peers, but it�s impossible to deny its effectiveness. In his latter years, Hopkins has used psychological warfare to his advantage and, much like the 1990s vintage Mike Tyson did, won fights before the first bell ever sounded by winning the mind game.

Hopkins would go on and on about his age before a fight and it seemed to have an impact on his opponents, who didn�t seem ready for how good this � pick your age � 41-, 42-, 43- or 44-year-old man would turn out to be. Ask Tarver, a huge favorite who lost 10 of 12 rounds. Ask Kelly Pavlik, another monstrous favorite who lost 11 of 12 rounds. Ask Winky Wright, a big favorite who lost nine of 12 rounds.

Pascal is clearly falling into the trap. He called Hopkins a dummy and his trainer, Marc Ramsay, referred to Hopkins as a jalopy.

�Be ready to see my athlete,� Ramsay said of the 28-year-old Pascal. �He is ready like a powerful F-1 car. When the fight starts, you will see a jalopy on the other side of the ring and my F-1 will run him over.�

Perhaps.

But in fashioning a 51-5-1 record with 32 knockouts and a no-contest, Hopkins has never been run over. More importantly, he�s never been remotely close to being run over.

And on Saturday, Hopkins will wear his age proudly on the back of his robe, a subliminal reminder to Pascal that he�s facing a man who won his first world title when Pascal was just 13.

�Everybody knows how old I am, but let�s write about it when I make history (on Saturday),� Hopkins said. �� On the back of my robe, it�s going to be like a football jersey. It�s going to have, �45 years old,� and, �Sexy,� at the bottom. Yes. Trust me.�

If you know Hopkins even a little, you know he�s serious. He thinks things through like few in the game ever have.

If he were a shell of himself, if he weren�t able to compete at the highest level, he wouldn�t be in the ring no matter how many zeroes are at the end of his paycheck. He�s far too astute to give up a normal life for the sake of a boxing match.

That�s not to say he�ll win on Saturday; Pascal is a talented guy who is 26-1 and blew out the highly regarded Chad Dawson in August. But win or lose, Hopkins won�t look out of place.

More than anyone, he knows the risks of his job and he�ll bail as soon as he knows the odds are no longer in his favor. Until then, he�ll keep collecting paychecks and title belts and talking about his advancing years. It�s only four years, 28 days until he can get his AARP card, after all.

�I�m not here because I can�t get away and walk away,� Hopkins said. �I�m here because my body still can do it. I�m here because I did the things that I was supposed to do early to be able to be here now. Making history, (surpassing) George Foreman, being the oldest champion, making, breaking and shattering records, to me, that�s one of the reasons I�m in this game. Richard said it starting off: This is what I like doing. I like making history.

�I must say, the naysayers, I thank them, because they have been a big part of me proving that I can do it. Because sometimes when you did it all and you won all of the titles and you�ve been pound-for-pound and you push the envelope to the point where people are still scratching their head, you do look around since you don�t have anything else to be motivated by. You�re fighting for the wrong reasons and that�s when you get caught. History is something that can�t be made by any athlete at any time.�

You don�t get a chance to see history made all that often. So, as Hopkins says, whether you love him or loathe him, watch. At this stage, everything he does is historic.

�I�ve been blessed and spoiled at the same time to be able to be in a position to make history at this late stage of my career without making a mockery of myself, wrestling on a mat in some kind of other sport, making a mockery of my legacy,� he said. �This is a great thing. This is a blessing. So sit back and enjoy it, because when it�s over with, who else are you going to ask a question of for two seconds and get a 10-minute answer?�

No one, Bernard. No one.

I�ll admit it. I�ll miss you when you�re gone.

Outstanding movie, would not be surprised to see "mom" get a nomination for best supporting actress, she had white trash nailed.

I had to come home and watch the Ekland vs. Leonard fight...push down.

When I was searching out that fight I stumbled upon this Ekland fight, man he had some power and speed, and obviously a killer instinct. too bad he didn't cut loose on Ray.

You can sure hear the drugs in Dicky. I bet he surprised a few dudes in the bar.

Remember when Bernard Hopkins was the "Executioner" and was knockin fools out left and right?

Oh, the good old days.

Brian.

She was so convincing that I forgot she was acting.

Speaking of which, was I the only one who thought Christian Bale made Mark Wahlberg look bad? Bale was doing brilliant acting, while Wahlberg was just acting like Mark Wahlberg.





Funny how one rather minor moment can define a guy for the rest of his life.




I wouldn't tangle with him.

Brian.

that was the best hopkins fight i've watched last night. to bad he was robbed. he won that fight

I missed the fight, but I heard Bernard won at least 9 rounds of that figt. Not really shocked they screwed him though, and there's pretty much zero chance for a rematch from what I've read.

Brian.

Hopkins has got to be the best fighter at his age ever.

That was a very good fight for Hopkins. A few observations, Hopkins had his opponent intimidated, his opponent ran most of the fight, and what a clinic on body punching by Hopkins. At the end, the 45yr old was the fresher of the two.

Well, the only real comparison would be George Foreman, who other than landing a big punch on a really chinny Michael Moore didn't do much on his comeback tour.

Hopkins is more than holding his own with the best in the world at his ripe old age. His style isn't predicated upon raw athletic ability (like say Roy Jones), so he's able to fight to a much older age than the average fighter.

Brian.

Speaking of George, Alex Stewart sure made a mess of his face in that fight.

I was surprised at how quick Hopkins still looks at age 45..he is still damned fast..what a gift.

Well, George never had much head movement to begin with. He was essentially a sitting duck for anyone willing to engage with him. He almost got decapitated by Ron Lyle for crying out loud.

Brian.

The only thing I'm afraid of is Hopkins getting old overnight. One day he's just going to step into the ring, and he won't have it anymore. That's not going to be pretty.

Hopefully he knows when to hang them up.

Brian.

From what I have heard is that he has been as smart with his money, as he is smart in the ring, that is what produces the Hollyfield-Ali typ of ass whoopins. He might have to take one, to know when.

He said something in an interview that addressed that, and is was pretty observant, Hopkins said "nobody retires from the ring, the ring retires you. What you have left after that, is what counts". If that is what he believes, then he'll have to take one good one, to know that it is time...and hell there isn't anything wrong with taking one.

Holyfield gonna end up walkin around in a drunk daze.

I think he already arrived. Give him a few more years for that frontal lobe to finish deteriorating, you won't be able to understand a word he says. Too bad, he was a real warrior in his day, he just wasn't smart with the $.

He already is, sadly.

Brian.

Having 72 kids didn't help any either.

Brian.

Damn!! I thought he had that many in Atlanta alone.

Tell me 72 is an exaggeration. :0

Sad but true,guess who helps take care of them?

I know of 11. The real number is much, much higher than that supposedly.

Evander spread his seed, that's for certain.

Brian.

Brian.