http://www.breitbart.com/california...tm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social

Will it take out southern Cali.

Damn! I hope everybody gets out in time.

Had to laugh at one of the comments......

"Patch the holes with love and multiculturalism"

Pound sand.

officials initially assured the public that evacuations would not be necessary, because the damage to the normal spillway appeared limited. They repeated those assurances on Saturday as the emergency spillway was used for the first time since the dam’s construction in 1968.

Now, however, local ABC News affiliate KRCR reports that state officials warn

I'm shocked to my very heart and soul that the "Officials" could not be trusted,.....

Anyhow,...OBEY OFFICIALS, it's the California way

kidding aside, prayers for those in harms way.

....a POX on politically motivated "Officials", and their puppet masters, as well.

GTC

Oroville is in Northern California!!! A lot of farmers around there. Rice, walnuts, almonds, etc. Not to mention innocent children.

Pretty ignorant statement "Well Bye".

[b][color:#3333FF]Live Coverage[/color][/b] .

Maybe it'll wash a few Million libs out of Sacramento and San Fran to the sea..

Prayers for the folks out there from N.C.

Hope RCBS stays safe and dry.

Wholly insensitive, but appropriate.

As much as I despise the politics of Liberal Californians, I pray there will be no loss of life with this disaster.

Mother Nature can be a real bitch.

Ed

Shows once again just how ill-prepared the government is to engineer and maintain something as basic as a dam.
When it breaches and causes loss of life and property I'm sure "climate change" will be at the heart of the cause.
Never mind democrats in charge of the State most likely didn't maintain its structural integrity.
Good luck to 'em.

Global Warming legislation is being drawn up in Sacramento as we speak, you can bet on that..

Look pal, they got high-speed cho-choo trains to Bakersfield to build, ya know!

Ha! Hopefully they increase the carbon tax and catch all those leaving town burning fossil fuel.

Maybe i am missing something but why did they not repair the damaged spillway when they diverted the water to the other one.

They have ways to make concrete set very fast.

Hope no one gets hurt.

Poor Cali, they can't catch a break. Its either too hot, too cold, too dry, too wet, too much mud, too much fire and too much San Andreas activity. Just not enough illegals to vote in more democrats.

This will be a colossal mis-management that will result in loss of life, property and numerous "class action" lawsuits.

That sinkhole in the main spillway isn't a crater from a bomb hit, it's a COLLAPSE of the sub-grade. For a collapse of that scale to transpire, there has to be a LOT of water making it's way from out from under that dam already,....DEEP underneath.

The implications of a potential "blowout" right down at or below the reservoirs bottom are not at all good IMHO.

GTC

They better get Peelosi, Maxine Waters and Feinstein out there to start filling sandbags.

This will end up being a "dam version" of a nuclear meltdown.

You definitely ARE missing something, both spillways are running a raging torrent,....you have concrete that'll "set" under that ?

GTC

I think the spillway was in good shape until the water started to spill over and erode the base away. First time the spillway had ever been used.

I hope CA kept the original sales receipt..

You be missing something too. They completely shut off the main spillway yesterday to inspect the damage. I suppose that's when he is talking about.

The least of which is the immediate aftermath, an entire regions water supply sits behind that dam. Implications are dire in a worst case scenario.

Sounds like a good time for Trump to negotiate that sanctuary thingy.....

Read about the Johnstown flood. It will put these things in perspective.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnstown_Flood

I think the spillway was in good shape until the water started to spill over and erode the base away. First time the spillway had ever been used.

Translation to non P.C. American English,
....The spillway was a poorly built product of lousy engineering, a true POS.
It's bloody well not the first time we've seen this kinda' rodeo, either.
Leaves me thinking back to the collapse of the freeway in Oakland, and wondering how much re-bar money went into the pockets of the pols, v. the actual concrete that's now failed.

GTC

News updates are calling the situation as being "uncontrollable". Looks like Mother Nature may win another one.

Inundation map:

From what I've read and seen video of, replacing the spillway isn't going to be a quick patch job, more like years of work and huge money. If the entire dam lets go, it could end up being one of the biggest disasters in modern history.

Not a civil engineer, but guessing that any new concrete that would have been poured would have scoured away in minutes. Massive quantities of fast water is pretty powerful stuff.

Progression map:

Cross,what i am getting at is the damage did not happen overnight.

It had to be going on for a while before they found it.

The way the so-called news read was that they had shut down the regular spillway down because of fears that it would wash out.

Just seems to me that if they did shut it down some type of damage control could have been done.
That's all.

What? Never a test run?

Are you under the impression that a fleet of heavy skycranes, the buckets from which to airdrop that much concrete, and that much concrete are kept somewhere, "Just in case ?".

Get real, this is COMPLETELY indefensible.

GTC

I can imagine the level of finger pointing will be "big league". Certainly it will be blamed on some level of Republican intransigence to deny proper funding for upkeep and repair.

I'm not saying they could have patched it. Just that yesterday it was completely shut off. No water was coming down it. The pictures I saw showed severe erosion underneath it, along the sides of it, and a hole you could have put several dump trucks in.

It's not going to fail, they have been predicting within the hour for the last three hours..they are just CYA

It's the emergency spillway. The one you have but never expect to use. This is the first time the water has been high enough to go over it.

Water has never got high enough, it's not a water release, it's an overflow.

Well good luck to 'em, its time to sign off.

Im sure the bureaucrats in charge of its maintenance and its saliency to prevent a crisis of this magnitude squandered and pilferred for self service.

[bleep] happens, but it seems like liberal rule is downright dangerous. It reminds one of New Orleans...

I hope of no loss of life, just that blame and repercussions might finally effect the asswholes who foment this [bleep]; but I'll bet it gets "washed away".....

They'll TRY to keep this under wraps, but I'll predict not that what actually appears on the original prints for that spillway for mat and grid rebar and wire denstity is NOT what they are going to find,....this kinda' schiddt's been ENDEMIC in that state,....

Well organized graft, theft, and abuse with ties right to the very top in most cases.

GTC

Let the salmon run!

Not interested in anyone getting fugged up. Head for higher ground - vote right.

This is a picture of the main spillway yesterday. Not the emergency spillway that is predicted to fail. They closed the main spillway which allowed more water over the emergency spillway that is eroding it's base. This image is actually reversed for some reason.



Another look that better shows the size of the spillway:

I have no idea where you get that from, but no that is not even close to my impression. My post was pointing to the long term implications of an entire region void of a reliable water supply should a catastrophic failure occur.

Oh no not the liberal utopia!

The era of its construction was not good for earthen dams...


Teton_Dam
The Teton Dam was an earthen dam on the Teton River in Idaho, United States. It was built by the Bureau of Reclamation, one of eight federal agencies authorized to construct dams.[3] Located in the eastern part of the state, between Fremont and Madison counties, it suffered a catastrophic failure on June 5, 1976, as it was filling for the first time.

The collapse of the dam resulted in the deaths of 11 people[4] and 13,000 cattle. The dam cost about $100 million to build, and the federal government paid over $300 million in claims related to its failure. Total damage estimates have ranged up to $2 billion.[5] The dam has not been rebuilt.

Contents [hide]
1 History and geology
2 Filling
3 Collapse and flood
4 Cause
5 Deaths, damage and property claims
6 References
7 External links
History and geology[edit]
There had been interest in building a dam in the eastern Snake River Plain for many years to control spring runoff and provide a more constant water supply in the summer. The area had suffered a severe drought in 1961, followed by serious flooding in 1962. The Bureau of Reclamation (USBR) proposed the Teton Dam in 1963, and Congress passed without opposition an authorizing bill the following year. The planned dam was to be an earthen structure 310 feet (94 m) high and 0.6 miles (1.0 km) long and create a reservoir 17 miles (27 km) in length. The impounded water would be used to generate hydroelectric power. An environmental impact statement was issued for the dam in 1971, but it did not raise the possibility of a collapse.[3]

The primary contractor for the dam was Morrison-Knudsen Co. of Boise, assisted by Peter Kiewit Sons Co. of Omaha, Nebraska. The $39 million contract was awarded in December 1971 and work began in 1972.[1]

The eastern Snake River Plain is almost entirely underlain by basalt erupted from large shield volcanos on top of rhyolitic ash-flow tuff and ignimbrites.[6] The tuff, a late-Cenozoic volcanic rock is 1.9 million years old. The dam site is composed of basalt and rhyolite, both of which are considered unsuitable for dam construction because of their high permeability. This was confirmed by long term pump-in tests at rates of 165 to 460 US gallons (620 to 1,740 litres) per minute.[7] Test cores, drilled by engineers and geologists employed by the Bureau of Reclamation, showed that the rock at the dam site is highly fissured and unstable, particularly on the right side of the canyon. The widest fissures were determined to be 1.7 inches (4.3 cm) wide. The Bureau planned to seal these fissures by injecting grout into the rock under high pressure to create a grout curtain in the rock.

In addition, an investigation of the area by geologists of the U.S. Geologic Survey indicated that it was seismically active: five earthquakes had occurred within 30 miles (50 km) of the dam site in the previous five years, two of which had been of significant magnitude. This information was provided to the Bureau of Reclamation in a memorandum, but the geologists' concerns were considerably watered down in the six-month re-drafting process before the USGS sent the final version of the memo to the USBR in July 1973.[3]

In 1973, when the dam was only half-built, but almost $5 million had already been spent on the project, large open fissures were encountered during excavation of the key trench near the right end of the dam, about 700 feet (210 m) from the canyon wall. The two largest, near-vertical fissures trend generally east-west and extend more than 100 feet (30 m) below the bottom of the key trench. Some of the fissures are lined by calcite, and rubble fills others. Several voids, as much as 6 inches (15 cm) wide, were encountered 60 to 85 feet (18 to 26 m) below the ground surface beyond the right end of the dam and grout curtain.[7] The largest fissures were actually enterable caves. One of them was eleven feet (3.4 m) wide and a hundred feet (30 m) long. Another one was nine feet (2.7 m) wide in places and 190 feet (60 m) long. These were not grouted because they were beyond the keyway trench and beyond the area where the Bureau had decided grouting was required.[8] This necessitated using twice as much grouting as had been originally anticipated – 118,000 linear feet were used in total. Later, the report of a committee of the House of Representatives which investigated the dam's collapse felt that the discovery of the caves should have been sufficient for the Bureau of Reclamation to doubt its ability to fill them in with grout, but this did not happen: the Bureau continued to insist, even after the dam had failed, that the grouting was appropriate.[3]

Filling[edit]
The dam was completed in November 1975, and filling the reservoir began at the standard rate of 1 foot (0.30 m) a day. However, snows were heavy that winter, and five months later the project's construction engineer requested permission to double the filling rate in order to deal with the additional spring run-off, while continuing to inspect for leaks and monitor the groundwater. A month later, even though monitoring showed that groundwater was flowing a thousand times faster than had been originally anticipated, the filling rate was doubled again, to 4 feet (1.2 m) a day.[3]

On June 3 and 4, 1976, three small springs were discovered downstream of the dam, although the water running through the leaks was clear, and such leaks are not unexpected for an earthen dam. At the time, the reservoir was almost at capacity, with a maximum depth of 240 feet (73 m). The only structure that had been initially prepared for releasing water was the emergency outlet works, which could carry just 850 cubic feet per second (24 m3/s). The main outlet works and spillway gates were not yet in service: the gates were cordoned off by steel walls while they were being painted.

Collapse and flood[edit]
Breach of Teton Dam, June 5, 1976

The dark brown streak on the dam face near the gray bedrock in the left half of the photo is a leak that formed on the morning of June 5. The speck above the leak near the top of the dam is a D-9 bulldozer that is heading down to the leak to push dirt into it.


Large amounts of mud are now spilling down the face of the dam, unchecked by the efforts of the bulldozer operators. The outlet works at the foot of the dam are flooding with muddy water.


The dam is now breached and muddy water flows violently over the dam face.


The breach has now widened to nearly its full extent. The outlet works are completely inundated with muddy water.
On Saturday, June 5, 1976, at 7:30 a.m. Mountain Daylight Time (MDT), a muddy leak appeared, suggesting sediment was in the water, but engineers did not believe there was a problem. By 9:30 a.m. the downstream face of the dam had developed a wet spot which began to discharge water at 20 to 30 cubic feet per second (0.57 to 0.85 m3/s) and the embankment material began to wash out. Crews with bulldozers were sent to plug the leak, but were unsuccessful. Local media appeared at the site, and at 11:15 officials told the county sheriff's office to evacuate downstream residents. Work crews were forced to flee on foot as the widening gap, now larger than a swimming pool, swallowed their equipment. The operators of two bulldozers caught in the eroding embankment were pulled to safety with ropes.

At 11:55 a.m. MDT (UTC-17:55), the crest of the dam sagged and collapsed into the reservoir; two minutes later the remainder of the right-bank third of the main dam wall disintegrated. Over 2,000,000 cubic feet per second (57,000 m3/s) of sediment-filled water emptied through the breach into the remaining 6 miles (10 km) of the Teton River canyon, after which the flood spread out and shallowed on the Snake River Plain. By 8:00 p.m. that evening, the reservoir had completely emptied, although over two-thirds of the dam wall remained standing.

Cause[edit]
Study of the dam's environment and structure[9] placed blame for the collapse on the permeable loess soil used in the core and on fissured (cracked) rhyolite in the abutments of the dam that allowed water to seep around and through the earth fill dam. The permeable loess was found to be cracked. It is postulated that the combination of these flaws allowed water to seep through the dam and led to internal erosion, called piping, that eventually caused the dam's collapse.

An investigating panel had quickly identified piping as the most probable cause of the failure, then focused its efforts on determining how the piping started. Two mechanisms were possible. The first was the flow of water under highly erodible and unprotected fill, through joints in unsealed rock beneath the grout cap, and development of an erosion tunnel. The second was "cracking caused by differential strains or hydraulic fracturing of the core material." The panel was unable to determine whether one or the other mechanism occurred, or a combination:

The fundamental cause of failure may be regarded as a combination of geological factors and design decisions that, taken together, permitted the failure to develop.

A wide-ranging controversy ensued from the dam's collapse. According to the Bureau of Reclamation, BOR engineers assess all Reclamation dams under strict criteria established by the Safety of Dams program. Each structure is periodically reviewed for resistance to seismic stability, internal faults and physical deterioration.[4] The dam safety program identified two other dangerous dams – Fontenelle, which very nearly failed like the Teton Dam when it was filled and again in May 1985 and the Jackson Lake Dam which would have failed during an earthquake on the nearby Teton Fault.

Deaths, damage and property claims[edit]

Teton Dam ruins in 2004
Teton Canyon ends approximately six miles below the dam site, where the river flows onto the Snake River Plain. When the dam failed, the flood struck several communities immediately downstream, particularly Wilford at the terminus of the canyon, Sugar City, Salem, Hibbard, and Rexburg. Thousands of homes and businesses were destroyed. The small agricultural communities of Wilford and Sugar City were wiped from the river bank. Five of the fourteen deaths attributed to the flood occurred in Wilford. The similar community of Teton, on the south bank of the river, is on a modest bench and was largely spared.[10] One Teton resident was fishing on the river at the time of the dam failure and was drowned. An elderly woman living in the city of Teton died as a result of the evacuation.[11]

One estimate placed damage to Hibbard and Rexburg area, with a population of about 10,000, at 80 percent of existing structures. The Teton River flows through the industrial, commercial and residential districts of north Rexburg. A significant reason for the massive damage in the community was the location of a lumber yard directly upstream. When the flood waters hit, thousands of logs were washed into town. Dozens of them hit a bulk gasoline storage tank a few hundred yards away. The gasoline ignited and sent flaming slicks adrift on the racing water.[12] The force of the logs and cut lumber, and the subsequent fires, practically destroyed the city.

The flood waters traveled west along the route of the Henry's fork of the Snake River, around both sides of the Menan Buttes, significantly damaging the community of Roberts. The city of Idaho Falls, even further down on the flood plain, had time to prepare. At the older American Falls Dam downstream, engineers increased discharge by less than 5% before the flood arrived.[13] That dam held, and the flood was effectively over, but tens of thousands of acres of land near the river were stripped of fertile topsoil.[5]

The force of the failure destroyed the lower part of the Teton River, washing away riparian zones and reducing the canyon walls. This seriously damaged the stream's ecology and impacted the native Yellowstone cutthroat trout population. The force of the water and excessive sediment also damaged stream habitat in the Snake River and some tributaries, as far downstream as the Fort Hall bottoms.

After the dam's collapse, debris clean-up began immediately and took the remainder of the summer. Rebuilding of damaged property continued for several years. Within a week after the disaster, President Gerald Ford requested a $200 million appropriation for initial payments for damages, without assigning responsibility for Teton Dam’s failure.[14]

The Bureau of Reclamation set up claims offices in Rexburg, Idaho Falls, and Blackfoot. By January 4, 1977, disaster victims filed over 4,800 claims totalling $194 million. By that date, the federal government paid 3,813 of those claims, $93.5 million. Originally scheduled to end in July 1978, the claims program continued into the 1980s. At the end of the claims program in January 1987, the federal government had paid 7,563 claims for a total amount of $322 million.

No plans have been made for rebuilding the Teton Dam, but its reconstruction has been brought up on at least one occasion.[citation needed]

link to wiki above...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teton_Dam

Perhaps the link would have been enough. Now I gotta scroll past that schit every time I click on this thread.

might have been some cavitation in the flow, micro bubbles of vapor forming and collapsing that create roughness in a spot, progressively eats away at the concrete. Not unheard of in large dam spillways. look up water hammer, cavitation, glen canyon dam.

from wiki tonight:

where you getting these?

Couple of points here.
The area in question is in Northern CA, and is as conservative a place as there is. Logging and lumber country, till the greenies decimated that industry, and this region. They don't need any more problems.
The "emergency spillway" that is failing is the "rim of the bathtub" The bathtub is overflowing.
The concrete spillway that failed earlier in the week is not the one that we are concerned about today. The only reason that the concrete spillway is relevant, is that flows were throttled back to prevent erosion adjacent to the failed spillway.
Difficult to test the emergency spillway, as it would take 900+ feet of water to get to it.
As to repairing the concrete spillway, the lake is dumping 65,000 CFS of water, or very close to 30,000,000 gallons per minute. That makes for a tough band aid.

Toured that in high school while there for a national envirithon competition. I was impressed by it then and still am today.

I have no idea where you got the idea I was addressing you,....I wasn't.

GTC

Gov. Moonbeam will fly Phil Swift in with some Flex Seal, not a problem.

I assume that California will ask for an emergency declaration from the Trump administration that will provide federal dollars to help with repairs.

lol that's typically why people quote a post but looking back I get it now. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

There are a lot of innocents who are going to have their lives turned upside down. I hate that Americans are being put through this.

Not to sound insensitive, but from my perch here in North Central Wyoming , I say, Huh and move on to local news. I agree that California is in some trouble, and they do never seem to have the right amount of moisture or anything else....but ,What can I do that the Engineers in charge should have done.

I was talking to a friend today and he said to also watch Shasta Lake. He said that it was about 30' above "full".

No harm no foul, just saving a little bandwidth and using the "reply function" instead of "stacking it like cordwood".

Greg

And he can tell them to get with the program on immigration or pound sand. That's what some are saying. Harsh, but defying the feds has consequences right?

It should...

Reagan was the governor when this dam was finished.

Sycamore

You got that dead straight!....and by the mid to late 80s we were madly scrambling to keep up with the incipient failures of the damned things, which had been scattered around like a mad woman's schiddt on both sides of the Medicine Line. You would not BELIEVE the miserable pile of mud they had protecting the town of Canmore Alta.

Ya' cant teach these "Civil Engineers" jack, ...by the late 80s they actually thought that they were going to modify the path of the "Mighty Bow",...and proceeded to try......that lasted, what, less than 25 years, and the whole bloody mess washed away ?

GTC

Thanks, Syc,....I'll remember to cast an evil glance at his signed pic on my wall when I walk past this evening,

....azzwhole

GTC

My daughter is evacuating. She just called wanting advice.
I am worried.

Here, they are looking at the "Pebble Mine" disaster in waiting... they want to build a dam encompassing three mountains for a "settling pond" which will make the Seven Gorges Dam either the second third or fourth biggest dam in the World, depending on how you count it.

But the Pebble deal will be built on 3,500' of tundra sponge... no way it could undercut, right?

But enganeers done figgered it out and plan to dewater an area bigger than several states down to that 3500' depth so it will squash down in there nicely. Of course there are a number of World Class rainbow fisheries there that will be completely dewatered in the process, but what could that hurt, right?

The Teton washout is exactly what I predict will happen if they decide to pull that stunt...

I'd love to see that. The idiot sycophants haven't lifted the drought emergency yet.....

My daughter is a few miles north, in Chico. That;s where the are sending evacuees.

Tell her ain't nothing physical worth dying for and get on the road to high ground, stat!

you were the one beaking off about graft and corruption going straight to the top.

you can get $22 for the pic on ebay, if you run low on hooch.

Sycamore

thanks, that pic helps show what is going on.

Sycamore

KCRA Live
Just said tens of thousands are evacuating, yet coverage sounds encouraging,,,as always before maybe disasters.

https://youtu.be/cdOGPBnfoKE

We can put her up for the night if she needs somewhere to go.

Dam.




Travis

the difference here is the Teton Dam failed from within the actual fill/ There was seepage along one abutment, saturation of the fill, and the ds face of the dam gave way.

Oroville Dam has an auxiliary spillway problem. I have read worst case scenario (which is pretty bad) thirty feet deep breach may form to bedrock. losing 30 feet of water off the top of that reservoir is going to be a lot of water downstream.

Nothing like losing the 700 feet of the main embankment.

Sycamore

Need to study your geography. That area is Californias heartland. The liberals are in San Francisco and Los Angeles and will likely not have any effect.

Trump will deny, as Moonbeam will want to use mojado labor.
Might get them off the welfare rolls, though.

And it was under construction for how many years before he took office. The dam was fully operational in 1968 1 year into his term.

You really are a disingenuous bastard aren't you? ESAD

Yep, looks bad for the 16k folks in Oroville, my friends and their kids are evacuating north with the rest of the evacuation. My Nephew from Sac county Rangers district is being sent to Oroville to assist the evacuation, and I suspect keep an eye on the vacant houses, Cal fire is also deploying there, not sure what their duties will be.

I am far enough south the water effects won't get here for several days, we are still recovering from last week's rain. Our ground is saturated, most of the local dry canals have overflowed into our Vineyards and wheat fields. Another day or so and the water should stop flowing "downhill", being at the lowest point is bad. Highway 99 south of Sacramento has been partially closed due to floodwater.

I visited Pardee dam today. From a relative who works for EBMUD who control the flows, it was 3' above overflow stage yesterday and 1.5' today and they expect it to drop below the spillway tomorrow, but thursday another 2 or 3 day storm is expected.

Oroville actually has the destinction, maybe overtaken by SF now, but they were the Welfare hub of northern California 6+ years ago, the last time I visited Buzz and the staff at Huntington's store.

It's time to saddle the horses and get the hell outa Dodge!! Just doesn't pay to live in low lying areas! Ask the good ole boys in South Louisiana about that!!

Geography and political studies for all... No liberals in Sacramento? Seriously?

Oh ye of little faith !

He's damned sure not one to EVER pass up the opportunity for a cheap shot.
Parrot, too,....I taught him to say "Beaking Off" years ago.
.....'nother dumb bird, that's all.

GTC

A friend with family beating feet out of Oroville are stuck in a traffic jam,....as of about 1/2 hour ago.

GTC

My wife's cousin lives in Redding and we were there last week. Just after we left last Tuesday they got hit by a warm rain that washed a lot of the snow down. This morning he said Shasta is full and they are releasing water. He didn't seem to have any concerns right now.

Agreed. Wishing a catastrophe on ANY US population is childish, in bad taste, and shows one's true colors. But beyond that, Deerwhacker's comments shows extreme ignorance.

I was born and raised 30 minutes north in Chico, Ca. Let me tell you what's in the path of a potential flood:

- Some of the richest almond and walnut orchards in the country.
- Some of the most prolific rice fields in the country
- Destruction of Feather River corridor, rich in wildlife and diversity
- Damage to many Northern Sacramento Valley communities (many of those, conservative areas)
- Some of the premier waterfowl stopover habitat in the Pacific flyway, and at least a half dozen critical National Wildlife Refuges plus some of the last decent pheasant habitat in the state
- Loss of property and human life

Quite a few classless replies on this post. Some of 24HCF's bottom feeders are in full force tonight...

The Dam is not the problem, the two spillways are.

Do you have any reason to believe the problem was graft and corruption that went straight to the top? Like your buddy Cross?

Infrastructure has been decaying in this country since it was built, most places have money for new stuff, but not for repair, maintenance, or testing.

The simplest explanation is often the correct one. You don't need graft for infrastructure to fail, you just need to not maintain it for 40-50 years.

Sycamore

RCBS address sounds like they are right in the middle of this

RCBS
605 Oro Dam Boulevard East
Oroville, CA 95965

+1

I'm no fan of California, but I also hate to see people's lives ruined or lost at the expense of the idiots in charge. Kind of like the fugged up state where I live. I'll keep my fingers crossed for a good outcome.

Oroville is a welfare chithole, the armpit of norcal.

Yuba city and Marysville just down stream aren't much better.

Lake Oroville hasn't flowed over the spillway in years.

They were aware of cracks in the spillway and did nothing to repair them.

My guess is they spent all the money on welfare, illegals and fat pensions for government workers.

Now moonbeam Brown is asking the fed for assistance, [bleep] em.

Trump is right we have neglected the infrastructure for to long.

Higbean will have a front row seat if it blows.

Calfire will be there for water rescues. We can't have them laying around on their union asses during something this big now can we?

Oroville is a welfare Chithole because of a bunch of enviro wackos, shutting down the mills and logging.
The good residents certainly didn't make that decision.

Oroville Dam contract was actually let with the main construction occurring during the reign of the super left wing Democrat, Governor Pat Brown. Although the dam was completed in 1968 while Reagan was governor, he had nothing to do with the construction or contracts.

Calif. is a total cesspool of corrupt officials, top to bottom, and most are Democrats. It was then and is now. Let's not forget that the present governor is Jerry "Moonbeam" Brown, the extreme left wing liberal son of former Gov. Pat Brown. Peas in a pod.

FWIW.

L.W.

I agree, it's not the peoples fault, I blame the bloated inefficient government, as usual the people will suffer and they don't deserve it.

I just got a PM from another "fire" member offering a place for her to stay. Unbelievably nice of him.
She was already on a freeway headed to a friends house that is safe.

You got me, count Excremento in as a lberal chit hole. It is a lot different further north and up river.

My retired Platoon Sergeant and dear friend is in the path of this. He suffered a catastrophic car accident that shattered his hip and broke his shoulder and knee cap just before Christmas. He is the toughest 68 year old I know but he is still just hobbling around.

I just got through to him and he is packing up his house and going to Beale AFB until further. I offered to go get him and his wife (and dogs, Moose and Bear) until it's over, but he is too proud to accept help.

The area affected by this does not have any liberals. Only farmers and tweakers. The liberals in the cities sneer at these "country folk" and curse them for living where tax dollars might go to somebody not as "cool" as themselves.

There are a lot of homeless along the Sacramento river that are going to be washed away tonight.

2 1/4 miles downstream

Well in this case the further it flows the lefter it gets. Truly some non-sense posted here tonight. The good the bad and the ugly.

Update (8:30 p.m. PST): Officials are moving construction equipment into position in preparation for a daring operation to plug the hole in the emergency spillway by using rocks, which are to be dropped from helicopters.

Meanwhile, there are unconfirmed reports of looting in the largely-empty town of Oroville.

If Pelosi, Boxer, the Browns, and Feinstein were all stuffed into the hole, all the people of Cali would be saved from a lot more harm.
It may not help the flooding, but the aftermath will be a LOT better.

The cutting potential of water is amazing...

. Best plan yet ...as dense as they are....

roger that.

shear stress from water in an open channel is a function of the depth and the velocity. should be plenty of both. good news is the aux spillway is off to one side, so there is bedrock down only 30 feet.

Sycamore

[quote=MtnBoomer]Update (8:30 p.m. PST): Officials are moving construction equipment into position in preparation for a daring operation to plug the hole in the emergency spillway by using rocks, which are to be dropped from helicopters.

Rocks from a chopper ????? Wtf ...a little math would tell that ain't going to work !!!! Good lord.....

Water flowing at 7 mph has the equivalent force per unit area as air blowing at EF5 tornado wind ....Water moving at 25 mph has the pressure equivalent of wind blowing at 790 mph, faster than the speed of sound....(weather channel)

Maybe they can drop a few loads of those solar reflecting "spheres" to plug the holes....

When those rocks roll into homes 30 miles downstream there will be repercussions...

Big heavy skycranes are used a lot, in setting Gabien baskets at difficult to access locales.REAL common further south in the mudslide after wildfire belt.

Given the counter rotor resonance they are KNOWN to set up in semi elastic formations below, I'm surprised they're considering their use as an option.

....when all you've got is a hammer,....

GTC

My brother was on a crew that dumped loads of rocks into the cowlitz river during the 07 flood at the bridge to try and save it. These were two rocks per dump truck. They backed up to the rail dumped them and they could hear the rocks rolling down river. They better bring some big rocks.

New meaning to Clean Energy.

Why do you say "bedrock down 30 feet?"

Undermining of the auxiliary spillway was why they have increased the main spillway flow to over 100,000 CFS attempting to lower water levels below the auxiliary.

Has is washed out yet or is there still hope?

Oroville weather.

Yes Ted, RCBS and Huntington's are just off the freeway, on the road to the dam, at least the way I have gone when Camping/ fishing at Oroville about 20 years ago. When the Huntington's sold to Blount, I believe, they kept the store and sold the manufacturing business.

The way Buzz Huntington told us, Oroville became the welfare city and scum from all over moved there, not that hard working Loggers who lost jobs to "save the owls" caused the scum. I am sure hard working folks moved to cities with work, not became scum.

Yep, plenty of Liberals in Sacramento. And good post on the farmland and waterfowl land that might become underwater for awhile. Our Dairy/ grain/ corn farming relatives have had hay fields under water, dried up for 2 weeks and back to underwater probably for another week, it should recover if not covered in silt. Grapes and tree's that aren't pushed over will also survive, the worst here around Sacramento's 60 mile radius are the tree's that have saturated rootballs and have fallen, and erosion to roads. With road closures around me the diverted traffic is still crossing country roads with 4" or less "creeks" flowing over them, and those roads are suffering the extra loads of trucks and more traffic on the waterlogged roadbase. Lots of potholes are being created, but that isn't fixable or stuff to worry about. I never knew how many big rigs deliver to one of my close big wineries until they were routed by my Dad's house. I spent 4 hours yesterday morning moving water around his house and saw more trucks than I ever imagined driving by his place.

For those who are well-wishers, thanks. California gets hammered here, but we Conservatives have grown thick skin, or we would have moved like some here keep suggesting we should do. I live on land my family has owned since 1903, and my grandkids will live here too if my kid's raise them right. Rant over

I feel your pain. This chithole is controlled by Portland, Salem, Eugene. Outside of that, there a lot of conservatives.

My daughter and my grandkids (and friends as well) are pretty much at ground zero. They are in the middle of evac.

Looks like all you CA haters might have your wishes partly fulfilled. Hey, with a little luck, we might have a massive earthquake to go along with it, you'd all be thrilled.

GO F UCK YOURSELVES!

Just an aside. Waterfowl can deal with flooding pretty dammed well.

I assume you're referring to my post...

Severe flooding can destroy levee's, weirs, and flood control structures that CREATE that habitat.

Since you really don't know what you're talking about........... FOAD.

PM incoming.

FOAD? Yah, you are a quality individual. There's truly no need to worry about the waterfowl.... They'll be fine.

Oh the walnuts! OMG the walnuts!

It's a $1.4 BILLION dollar industry for California and supports tens of thousands of jobs.

You really, truly have no idea what you're talking about and probably should shut up before it becomes clear how ignorant you really are.

The family has 1000 acres of Walnuts outside Yuba city and 1000 acres of rice in live Oak. OMG the walnuts is right. But I'm more concerned about those that live in the path of a flood than our trees at this time. Hope we all survive this event with no loss of life or property.

Just a reply to duckguy. You're all pissy at me because I truly think the waterfowl will be just fine... Seriously. Like the Pacific Flyway is in danger because of a flood? Come on. Seriously?

Craigster, I hope your family make it out of there safe and sound. My parents have a vacation home in CA 86 miles from Oroville dam...

Just a reply to Mtnoomer. I kinda thought you were a worthless POS f uck wad. Now I know you are.

You guy's will biotch over the silliest stuff....

Nobody in particular, just funny how the importance of folk's being evacuated turns into a " I know more than you do", LOFL

And I do think the tree's will survive just like most of my Grape farmers and small walnut farms around me, the tree's are dormant, if the soil is still there and the tree's are not pushed over by swift waterflow, mother nature will prosper this spring. I was surprised 2 weeks ago when the one hay field's water receded, the crop was still there, a little yellow in a few spots, but still 8-12" tall.It is again under water.

Craigster,

Many folks here don't realize what they associate with "California" predominately lies South of the Golden Gate and west of the Sierra Nevada's.

The rest of California is filled with many great people who produce many of the products we enjoy.

Good luck to your family. I hope they make it to high ground soon.

I agree this was outrageous of me to say?????????????????

I'd rather be concerned with my sis down stream then the fucqking ducks. LOL

Not outrageous at all. But it doesn't change the fact that you're a worthless POS f uck wad.

Ok then... I'm just not seeing it. Might be that your ill mood could be better directed toward those that were wishing ill upon ya'll... As I didn't. Just pointing out the FACT that the waterfowl will be fine...
The walnut comment was a jab though..

Any updates?

Update (8:36 p.m. PST): The Butte County Sheriff announces that county jails are being evacuated to other prison facilities; shelters are being opened for displaced residents; and Butte College facilities and buses will be shut down on Monday. A statement on Facebook indicates the situation at the dam is precarious: “The next several hours will be crucial in determining whether the concrete structure at the head of the auxiliary spillway remains intact and prevents larger, uncontrolled flows.”

Update (8:48 PST): Mark Finan of local NBC affiliate KCRA reports that the level of the lake has dropped to near 100% capacity — just over 901 feet above sea level — such that flow has effectively ended over the emergency spillway.

Thank you for your kind thoughts.

Yep, I just read that too. Seems like the water has stopped running over the spillway for now.

That's good.

Prayers lifted for our friends in California.

G

lot of water

Unfortunately, to paraphrase Johnny Cash, "Looks like y'all are gonna be blessed with a little more rain"

How High's the Water, Momma?"

Are the adrenaline junkies riding kayaks and boogie-boards down the spillway yet?

Even if the situation remains stable for the next day or two, rain, and lots of it, is predicted to arrive again late Wednesday and continue for several days.

This very dangerous situation could continue to play out for a couple of weeks.

There are now over 100,000 people evacuating, as of 11:00 pm.

There is a hole in the emergency spillway that they are trying to fill with rocks, and bags of rocks, dropped from helicopters. The hole is slowly growing and eroding. If that portion of the emergency spillway gives way, it is expected to lose the 30' of dirt down to bedrock. The presumption is that the bedrock would hold. In that case a 30' wall of water would be released. If the bedrock at the 30' level doesn't hold, then all bets are off.

The Sheriff is reporting that the rumors of looting in Oroville are false, and were started when an individual was caught breaking into a business, that was not related to the evacuations. That was an isolated incident like what happens any day.

I dropped in at Huntingtons on Oro Dam Blvd a few days ago on my way to the Campfire get-together in Tonto Basin, Arizona. Little did I know that those folks would so soon be in peril. My hopes and prayers go out to all those affected by this dangerous situation.

The news is currently reporting that the water is no longer running over the top of the emergency spillway, but is still leaking through the hole that is lower down in that area.

They are letting water out of the main spillway at the maximum rate they can, which is currently letting water out of the lake faster than it is inflowing into the lake.

Whether they can keep up this higher outflow may depend on the continuing damage and erosion that is occurring on the main spillway. They are in a race with time to lower the water level before the next storms arrive on late Wednesday. The spokesman says the ideal target would be to get the level down 50' from the top. This will be an ongoing story.

Sounds like a really shiddy situation with the main spillway and the emergency spillway both compromised.

I guess using the damaged main spillway is the best option for now.

"They" say that as of now, the main dam itself is not compromised. However, if the main spillway area becomes too eroded, then, theoretically the main dam might become compromised.

If they have to reduce the output to prevent compromising the main dam while new storms add more input, the emergency spillway will be overflowing again.

The max outflow that is occurring now is already flooding some low areas and putting a lot of stress on many levees. If levees start giving away much property damage will occur even if the dam and the spillways remain secure.

Half of the purpose of a dam is to provide flood control. The minute a dam reaches full capacity, there is no more control.

The news just reported that many of the roads in Butte County are very jammed with vehicles trying to evacuate. It is also a good bet that there are lines at the gas stations as people who constantly run around with their tanks near empty learn a good life lesson.

Trump should use this as a sledgehammer to set the stage for his infrastructure spending plan.

Better get the hell out

Prayers lifted for the safe evacuation of all of the families affected. Prayers lifted for all of the emergency responders who are involved.

Time to fix the problem at hand. There will be plenty of time for blame game after the fact...

All that tax revenue and this is the best the idiots could do

They seem to have spent a good amount on floating plastic balls. Different reservoir.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/los-angeles-reservoir-covered-96-million-shade-balls/story?id=33038319

Indeed.

Gotta love how the liberal puke news and weather people make everything "the worst it's ever been" now from snow to ice to heat always predict stupidity!! Supposed to be the worst ice storm here ever didn't even rain!! just a bunch of fear mongering idiots!!!!!!!!

How long after this breaks, does the left wait to blame Trump?

Yeah, what he said. I have in-laws in southern CA, good people, but basically clueless about everything. Not liberal, just friggin' clueless.

They would not be effected by this, but I'd hate for anyone to get flooded out. Seen a lot of that during the '93 floods along the Missouri/Mississippi river drainage. I saw dead deer carcasses 30 feet up in the forks of tree limbs. Not a good thing for anyone, ever.

A guy could get a lot of ducks in that hole.

Read back a ways,....this is all Ronald Reagan's "Fault".
....at least according to one well known lib here.

GTC

Given the absolutely SUPERB levels of material strengths and properties of materials available during construction, THAT is one PISS POOR piece of work there, my friend.
The SOB did not "fail from lack of infrastructure maintenance" as proposed by one little cheap shot sniper hiding in the weeds. Well engineered and executed structural concrete's supposed to get STRONGER for it's first century,....and epoxy coated, high tensile re-bar was an accomplished FACT of that day.

That structure was a POS the day they cut the ribbon and headed back for the whorehouse.

GTC

There is at least one idiot already calling for Trumps impeachment on Youtube! LMAO.

I haven't read the whole thread, but when it's man against nature, nature will always win, in the long run.

As anyone from Louisiana knows, water is one the most destructive forces in nature. As long as you can keep the flow rate down, it's just nasty. When the flow rate goes up, it get destructive, very fast. With the amount of flow they had, its a wonder it didn't do more damage.

I don't see ANY rebar. Am I missing it or is it not there?

I work in this industry daily. There are a lot of things wrong with this picture.

Given the extraordinary volumes expected, what's the current perspective on the Mississippi's readiness to handle the Spring Thaw ?

It would be GREAT to see some actual close ups, wouldn't it ?

No remains of normal grouted in "bolts" angled down into bedrock, either.

GTC

This morning the number of evacuees has been raised to 188,000.

The water level in the lake was lowered a bit over a foot overnight.

The bad news is that the Weather Service prediction for the Feather River watershed that runs into the lake is for as much as a foot of rain over the next ten days. They probably can't let water out fast enough to keep it from overflowing again in the coming two weeks.

The helicopters are flying now, dropping bags of rocks to try to strengthen the weak area around the emergency spillway.

They just announced that a train south of Roseville derailed due to water over the tracks. Many trains are now being rerouted out of the area that is or may be affected by this Oroville Dam situation.

Same "California Engineering" that gave us parking lots that are conjoined, but you can't drive from one to the other without getting back on the crowded public roads and sitting through red lights...

Actually, this is a clusterfugg caused by man...the main spillway has been damaged for a while and DWR people were well aware of it....there was never any danger of the dam nor the main spillway failing....BUT the high flows into the lake AND the damage to the lower section of the main spillway, gave them an opportunity and EXCUSE to TEST the auxiliary (EMERGENCY) spillway...

I'm sure a hummingbird egg leftover from last year caused the maintenance to be postponed...

I doubt that "they" deliberately created an emergency to test the emergency spillway.

I never thought to test-fire the ejection seat in my A-4 to see if it would work if I needed it to.

People who run dams love being in control. To ensure their careers they tend to be too conservative. We have always complained that the people running Shasta Dam never want the lake within 30 feet of the top, in case big, late Spring rain totals occur. They almost never happen, then we wind up looking at a big dirt ring around the lake all summer, and their isn't enough cool water for the salmon in the river downstream during the later part of the summer.

People who love being in control don't want to lose control, which is what happens when dams overflow.

I saw the damaged spillway on TV. Given its location (close to the dam itself), the depth of the hole and, the velocity of the water, I think the dam could possibly collapse due to scowering of the rest of the spillway up to the dam supports. I do think the evacuation is a prudent move, give the catastrophe that will result if it collapses.

Some pics. To show scale or whatever.

Ah, so this picture makes more sense to me. The main spillway had damage. The emergency spillway then cut into the main spillway exacerbating the damage.

That's bad...really bad.



The California Department of Water Resources stopped the spillway flow on Thursday morning to allow engineers to evaluate the integrity of the structure after water had been released at 20,000 cubic feet per second through the night. (Courtesy of the California Department of Water Resources).

Bad indeed.. Yikes..


Only thing I ever saw close to that was back in the '70s when a town south of me got 7" of rain in about an hour.. A 2 block section of an entire STREET (sidewalk-to-sidewalk and 20+ feet deep) washed into the Mississippi..

It was incredible - but nothing like the size of the damage above.. Those residents beneath are lucky that thing didn't fail..

Can't happen....it rests on bedrock. and the damaged part of the spillway is a LONG ways away from not only the Dam, but the spillway gates themselves.

That pic is of another damned dam. LOL Dammm that's a hole!

THANKS RNOVI sorry for the dumphucqktitudeness. MB

MB,.....THANKS for putting up all the good diagrams and photos !

GTC

No, the emergency spillway is routed through a ravine quite a ways away from the main spillway...

If the quality of the "grout curtain" along said bedrock is anywhere's near as poor as the concrete work on that spillway, your faith in the integrity of the whole show may be a wee bit misplaced.

GTC

It's anyone guess. First they will open the gates at Simsport and let more water down the Atchafalaya.

Then the Bonnet Carrie Spillway will be opened. This is above NO, on the river and lets fresh water into Lake Pontchatrain. Oyster fishermen hate this. Keeps NO from flooding, unless it gets really bad.

Last, if needed, they will open the gates at Morganza and flood the Atchafalaya Basin. This has only happened 2 times.

After these 3 things, you are 'out of luck'. One of these days, those things will not be enough and when it happens, 1/4 of La. will flood. It happened in '27, before the present levee system was finished. My Granddad told me about it.

Wonder why dumbF%^k jim cantori from the weather channel isn't standing in the center of it yelling and flailing his arms, in horrible danger of his life too tell people!!! fugging shaved head P O S

Hopin things work out ok for folks in that area

Ma nature, like most women doesn't always respond well to being manipulated

Good luck, maybe with a bit of that they can get some repairs made

The dam isn't leaking...it isn't that I have "faith in the integrity of the whole show", because this pic shows they were well aware of the damage a LONG time ago...the thing is, this was caused by the operators of the dam...they never needed to slow the releases from the main spillway...they chose instead to let the lake rise to the EMERGENCY spillway and it probably over stressed its design capabilities....notice how quickly they've lowered the level???

You're welcome. Have not found any info on the work that was reported being done last night, dropping stones from the air. Hopefully they kept it carbon neutral.

Actually, that's the current damage to the Oroville Spillway.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/12/us/california-oroville-dam-failure/index.html

Scroll down about halfway on the Cartoon News Network...it shows the comparison pix.

Holey hell dammm Sorry man! Chit - that looks badder!

They better fill the sandbags with them. It would be so fitting and the only thing they are good for.

There should be no SCOWS anywhere near either spillway.

That was some major h20 overflowing this past night or 2. How can the entire underside not be compromised now?? I'm surprised the whole slab didn't go.

Bet they have to darn near rebuild the whole thing.

No doubt it will be blamed on Trump!!

Godspeed recovery to those effected.

I thought CA was a very "environmentally conscious" state? There is probably an agency that would have a problem with folks throwing chit like that in the water.....

I think you're really confused about what's actually going on, mate.

GTC

...not sayin I ain't, either.

GTC

Prayers sent for those living in the vicinity.

Looks like much will have to be done to restore the dam, whether it was long overdue or not.

The money that was earmarked for dam maintenance is instead being spent to hire Eric Holder to combat President Trump's new policies to safeguard our nation.

Sure left a clean hole.Never seen concrete demo that clean.Where is the gnarly rebar with concrete chunks.

Right click, View image.

Close up you can see where the rebar was pulled right out of the concrete.Damn.

Fill it with epoxy.

MM, I believe you are mistaken... Read this!

The initial damage to the spillway occurred Tuesday, about 3,000 feet downstream from where water enters from the lake. The water flowing out of the hole quickly turned brown with mud as it consumed trees and soil before rejoining the main channel below in a massive confluence wave that sent up clouds of mist in the tree-lined canyon.

The lake was rising at a half-foot per hour Thursday as the inflow peaked at 121,000 cubic feet per second, officials said at a news conference about a mile from the spillway. They were releasing water at about 40,000 cubic feet per second.

That’s not enough to keep the lake from continuing to rise, officials said, but is expected to keep them from having to use a nearby emergency spillway that has never been used since the dam was dedicated in 1968.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/oroville-dam-emergency-spillway-california-runoff/

Well, they were wrong and had to use the emergency spillway. Now the emergency spillway has failed and they are forced to close it to prevent possible flooding. That is why the evacuation is in order.

They have decided to open the main spillway and let the damage there continue. But opening the main spillway has lowered the water level and saved the emergency dam/spillway, for now.

At least that is my understanding.

Most of those pictures of damage are from Friday or Saturday when they closed the main spillway, as was already posted in this thread yesterday. The main spillway was never the issue. The erosion of the emergency spillway is the issue. That's not what's in those pictures. You can bet the main spillway is far more damaged now than what those pictures show.

Not to worry. They are entirely composed of rank and stale hot air and nothing as valuable as chit which can grow tomatoes.

Main spillway. Couple of days ago v. today.

Min spillway erosion.

Yeah. As bad as that looks that's not even the worst problem. The hole they are worried about is on the emergency spillway.

This video shows some of the damage at the emergency spillway:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/helicopters-to-drop-in-boulders-to-try-and-stabilize-orville-dam%e2%80%99s-emergency-spillway/vi-AAmTC8U

It's abundantly clear that the failure began at a seam in the concrete, where I would bet anything that the seal had been lost and water intrusion has been allowing the rebar to rust.

Years ago, I was involved in a whistleblower event regarding a bridge that was on the verge of collapsing. My voiced concern was blown off by the controlling authority initially, with explanation that fractures in concrete were not a problem unless rebar was rusting - and rusting rebar would have to be evidenced by rust stains streaking the concrete. My follow-up photos showing the rust streaks, along with threat to go public when the bridge fails, drew immediate and dramatic positive response.



I'd bet that the photo posted above from 2013 shows when crews were out there looking at rust stains. Makes me wonder what else might not have been reported or dealt with.

That's bunch of angry water!!! And more rains OTW. Ominous!!!

A guy might tinpan at the bottom of that and do some good. Might have turned up a few new nuggets.

Just speaking out my ass, but I'd bet someone in charge thought, "Big deal, we're in a permanent drought now and we'll never use that spillway again".

I thought of that, the first I heard of this.

Back in, I think it was '86, there was a flash flood event on the Feather River above Oroville. It washed out roads and stretches of railroad track, and even topped over some of the smaller dams upstream of Oroville lake. That spurred a gold rush that lasted at least a couple years there, IIRC. I don't know if any placer miners struck it rich, but judging from all the new equipment I saw in use, the prospecting equipment makers and sellers must have enjoyed a bonus.

Probably right - especially if you add "...in my career, if not my lifetime".

Looks like it may have failed from undermining. Percolation from the earthen dam created voids under the slabs.

That's not from today. The main spillway hasn't stopped flowing since Friday.

It cut a path back to the main spillway.

1986 Yuba river Levee "broke" in Linda Ca. Some believe it was blown on purpose to save Yuba City.

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/02/...officials-ignored-warnings-12-years-ago/

These arseholes really dropped the ball with the release of information. Water started flowing over the emergency spillway at approximately 8am saturday morning. Local news agencies and "officials" covered the first hour of it then looped the same morning video of it all Saturday and into Sunday. You had to rely on people live stream from the damn to get an idea of what was really going on. You would think that if there was even a slight possibility of the emergency spillway being used(which the officials decided Thursday and Friday wasn't going to happen) for the first time EVER that they would have started to get the word out to start moving away. Instead they start running around with their f ucking heads cut off shouting it's going to fail in an hour, get out of town! Talk about a Cluster f U.K. To the umptenth degree. Heads need to roll. Piss poor management. Piss poor delivery of news. A lot of people got lucky last night.

I think you underestimate the power of moving water. I think that a lot of other people who are responsible do too.

The opening kick-off of the blame game. I knew it wouldn't take long.

Corrugated metal culverts are the places to look

About 120,000 from what I read. Something like 60k made it out. Could be wrong.

Either way God Bless and save them all!!

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/13/us/california-oroville-dam-spillway-failure/

Good shots and info.



As an aside, since that worked so well last night.

Here's how Butte County CA voted 2016.



PRESIDENT/VICE PRESIDENT
Total
Number of Precincts 141
Precincts Reporting 141 100.0 %
Vote For 1
Times Counted 98879/129286 76.5 %
Total Votes 97002
Times Blank Voted 1727
Times Over Voted 150
Number Of Under Votes 0
TRUMP/PENCE 45144 46.54%
CLINTON/KAINE 41567 42.85%
JOHNSON/WELD 4625 4.77%
STEIN/BARAKA 2594 2.67%
LA RIVA/BANKS 501 0.52%
Write-in Votes 2571 2.65%

*Most* merchants have made more money than *most* miners.

Safe for now, I heard there was more rain headed that way.

God help them.

I hope everyone is getting out of the way, knowing people, some wont.

Did you see the some of the faulting lines in the over thrust in the formation immediately below that hole ?
Percolation dittos, with a probable grout curtain problem contiguous.

GTC

So, is it going to fail right now?
Or is the danger over until more storms?

Ho Li Phuoc, what a mess!

Somebody sure 'nuff screwed up while traveling down the design/construction/maintenance highway.

For what it might be worth to curious minds:

100,000 cfs = ~750,000 gallons/second

This is the principal behind "Digger Dams", which I will be using on my hunting property hopefully this spring. Cut and leveled tree trunks, set into the slope, cause the cascading water to dig out the downhill side. This creates ponds. I hope to have 4 or 5 in series in the same gulley. This will privide standing water for game, where there is now only watershed.

Yes, that is probably what made the big hole. But my point was more about how that hole didn't need to be there for hydraulic forces to rip away the concrete skirt once the rebar had failed.

I've yet to SEE any rebar, myself.

You ?

GTC

Looks like plain concrete slope paving. Probably has wire mesh...
Done quite a few channel linings that way.

In fairness, once subgrade was lost, not much would stay. Probably not normally reinforced concrete. It looks to be a fairly thin section, probably, from appearances, around 8"

Couldn't find it in English.

Oroville Faux spillway. Must have been done by liberals. Just a feel good spillway. NO real substance.

It's there. You have to remeber the pics you see are from a helicopter. Find some pics with the workers inside of the wash out in the spillway and maybe you will understand the size of the hole and why you don't see rebar.

Your a f u kin idiot. 8" you say?? Lmao.

Hilarious, with no real substance.

Well ! fester you seem to know? What are the spec's on the spillway?

Did you look at the video I just posted a link too?
The concrete section is thinner than the guard rail.

So, fester, you have more accurate info, or is your "instinct" talking.

Seriously, 8" of concrete? Lmao

I just happen to live right down the road from the dam and have been there many times.

The original hole was 100 yards across and 40' feet deep. 8" concrete lmao.

That's a [bleep] sidewalk below the emergency spillway.

Pretty sure it's 8 inches - that's what she hoped... Damm that's a big hole. That's what I said...

Here's some more shots. Rebar can be seen in the bottom pic on the chunk to the right. OR SOMEWHERE. TOOMANYPICS

This whole incident reminds me of bear attacks.

Everybody that wasn't there deserves to not die.




Travis

Thanks for the photos Mtnboom

Sure sure. Maybe this one. Yes this shows it but gotta zoom in. The rebar is fubar.

it all wound up in Sacramento!!

Whatever else, they've got one big expensive problem.

BIG asss hole. Can't wait to see what the damage is once the stop dropping water down the spillway.

Wow... Didn't know there were so many structural engineers and groundwater hydrologists here... I'm learning a LOT!

So everybody here deserves to die?

Refugees without access to their EBT card! Dayammm, when I think of California babes - it ain't that...


Rebar fubar

Slabs for everyone.

Cross there was one picture that when viewed up close you could see the rust lines where the rebar was.

It did not have any pieces hanging out but it looked like the concrete delamanited or something.

Seems they need to redo their inspection process some.

Lol. Between funding ebt, tranny bathrooms and Eric holder there is no money for infrastructure repairs.

Don't forget the wildlife bios and ag economists... And Political wizzers and conspirists...

Darn, I did forget those...

And, the "BA's" in "Environmental Science"....Gawd, that [bleep] cracks me up!!!

and boycott mavens!!!

Not good ones.

To me it looks like it should be a "tub" instead of two walls poured with the spillway poured after. It leaves a lot less room for error.

We done just use da leftsover chain link fence, that's all da governer would gib us. Don'ts needs no spilzway nohows tain't rained cents fo'three..










Two minutes I'll not get back.

Lol. The link fence reinforcement looks reusable! Quikrete dumped in the hole should cure before the next storm. F ucking engineers no dik.

The average man's hand stretched out spans about 10 inches. Look at the top photo. That slab is a bit more than 8 inches.

How thick? 30"?



It's a big un.

FAKE NEWS WARNING
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/02/09/ororville-dam-spillway-collapse-may-be-due-to-missing-rebar/

.....

If REBAR was present, we likely would not see such a dramatic collapse as it would have prevented water pressure cavitation from eroding more and more concrete. Concrete is a material that is very strong in compression, but relatively weak in tension. To compensate for this imbalance in concrete’s behavior, rebar is cast into it to carry the tensile loads. This means concrete pulls apart much easier than it is crushable, but with REBAR the tensile force required to pull the concrete apart is greatly increased.

One wonders if that lack of REBAR on the spillway was by design, accident, negligence, or some cost-cutting measure like the lack of life-boats and cheap steel on the Titanic. REBAR in concrete was invented in 1849. It seems incredible to me that it seems to be missing from this very important structure.

It is a might thicker than 8", thanks for the better pictures.
Appears to be slab and beam? More substantial then the video I saw, for sure.

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2017...roville-dam-spillway-previously-patched/


Problems at the Oroville spillway were known.

A picture shot by Lois Cameron from 2013 shows crews examining an issue around the area of the current hole.

“There were some patches needed and so we made repairs and everything checked out,” said Kevin Dossey, a Senior Civil Engineer with the Department of Water Resources. “It looked like it would be able to hold, be able to pass water.”

Dossey says this sort of thing is routine.

“It’s common for spillways to develop a void because of the drainage systems under them,” said Dossey.

While everything may have appeared normal back in 2013, 2014, and 2015; what happened Tuesday when the earth gave way, is anything but.

“There wasn’t any evidence that anything more needed to be done,” said Dossey, “repairs were smooth and looked like they were good and secure.”



http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2017...roville-dam-spillway-previously-patched/

Complete ignorance on the location, but will snow melt affect that water shed?

Yes

Part of th problem was rain melting snow

They have a good snow pack this year too, correct?

Big time.

Well said, that's exactly what I was thinking today while I was at work....

Biggest winter in 22 years I read somewhere.

Looking at the weather it looks like they have about 7 days of rain coming starting on Thursday.

What a mess.

Somebody should tell this guy.......rust never sleeps.

We are screwed for the foreseeable future. Snow pack, warm rain, spring melt off....... its going to be interesting.

Farmers always say that you should never complain about rain.

I read that 188,000+ people have evacuated, that is an amazing amount of folks.

+10... And there is a LOT of snow yet to melt .

Crazy, hope and pray for the best, prepare for the worst.

A lotta dam experts.

Please...how 'bout y'all who are spouting sh1t out your AZZES provide some data whereby we engineers and scientists can crunch the numbers and contribute our opinions...which are surely less valid than ignorant stupid f'ing hysteria... amazing...

Ooops.

We were posting at the same time...

YEP! DAM(n) experts!!!

As in:

Ex is a hasbeen...
Pert is a drip under pressure...

What do you want to know about groundwater hydrology?

Even the dams in CA are weak and gay.




Travis

What happens when too much water hits a wall of gayness?





Dave

It make's a rainbow.

Not much, since I minored in hydrology because of a similar event to this that happened when I was in high school and decimated part of MY world...:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teton_Dam

[bleep] it...never mind all of the above. This was the best site for hunters on the web a decade ago...now it is a forum for the cool kids...

Sad...

Travis/Deflave/Clark is not a cool kid.

He is a high functioning alcoholic who has a soiled pillow.

There is a difference

The videos of that dam failing were unreal.

7025Jack,

This thread needs to be high jacked.

There is some value to this sight. I called every pawn shop and gun store in Medford, Central Point, and Grants Pass, Oregon this morning looking for a used Weatherby Mark V six lug action. Finally I decided to try here. Someone posted one a little before noon. The caliber was not too important. Tomorrow I will be sending the money.

But generally I agree with you. The number of posters on ignore is getting so big when there is a political post half the poster are on ignore.

just need to get off the campfire forum and visit the other forums....right back to a site for hunters

[/quote]
The average man's hand stretched out spans about 10 inches. Look at the top photo. That slab is a bit more than 8 inches. [/quote]

OK, well, I just HAD to go and measure mine... I am 8.5. I feel so, inadequate now..

finally, someone that really does know about the subject.

Read it again, Pelosi.




Dave

There is another engineer on here all the time that knows everything. Somebody said he's on vacation but I'm sure he will be along sooner or later and remedy the situation. My personal expertise in this area is limited and crunching #s gets old.

But since you wanted some data to chew on, here you go.

According to Digital Dan, 100,000 cfs = ~750,000 gallons/second. From this simple conversion please determine the size and number of bags needed to haul big rocks into the dam. I don't have specs on the bags such as knots per inch, etc. , but I'm guessing they need to be extra-heavy duty.

Next up we will determine if 223AI is really enough to dislodge said rocks from quarry. I feel a quarter bore would be the minimum, but with these new bullets and powders...

Hey - I'm right in there with ya at 9.25". 40 years ago I was closer to average, but now, not so much.

Whats the Status on the Dam today? I am not seeing much on the news.....

Drain and repair. They have decided to sacrifice the main spillway in order to allow repair to the auxiliary spillway.

Water level is down as they await rain onThursday

Oh, then you majored in sarchasm?

Not so sure they decided to sacrifice the main spillway, they have no choice.
If they didn't open it the emergency spillway would fail.

The main spillway is eroding it's way up towards the gates. If it reaches the gates a massive failure will happen.

If you look at photos of when the sinkhole first appeared on the main spillway and compare it to recent pic's you will see it's working it's way up towards the gates.

I am sure they core drilled the entire ridge before they built the dam and know exactly where and how deep the bedrock is.


Keep in mind the storms aren't over and the spring run off hasen't even started.

This is not over by a long shot.

I guess you need to open your cum dumpster again and clarify your comment.

Thinking 'flave is missing that "here" means something different to you. And maybe vice-versa.

An instant classic, this.

A FAAABULOUS rainbow.

Oh....



http://www.trbimg.com/img-589e75ec/turbine/la-me-lake-oroville-spillway-pictures-019/600/600x338

Every dam one of them apparently.

Um...

Yeah

Are the almost 200,000 people still being kept away? I'm guessing it will not be the last time this spring.

As of this morning, they've canceled the evac order for now.

Yep - it's definitely a fluid situation.

Good read (s),....and the BEST pics yet

Link: http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidbr...ations-on-the-oroville-dam/#6ea5a5c91925

Link: http://blogs.agu.org/landslideblog/2017/02/14/oroville-dam-site/

Some Geological Observations On The Oroville Dam


David Bressan , CONTRIBUTOR
I deal with the rocky road to our modern understanding of earth

Opinions expressed by Forbes Contributors are their own.
After copious amounts of rainfall in California in the last weeks, the artificial lake of the Oroville Dam is now filled far above its normal capacity. To hold the lake level at a maximum of 20 feet below the crest of the dam, the additional water can be discharged by a main spillway and an emergency spillway. Last week, cracks and a 300 feet wide hole suddentlyopened in the concrete of the main spillway. After a first inspection of the damage, a discharge test to lower the water level in the lake was undertaken, which caused more damage to the spillway. Reducing the discharge slowed down the damage done to the main spillway. However, Lake Oroville has been rising in response to the reduced outflow at the rate of about half a foot per hour in the last week.

Discharge test February 11, 2017 at the Oroville Dam. In the background the concrete weir and the emergency spillway are visible. The main spillway is already damaged and running water started to erode the left bank of the spillway. Image by William Croyle, California Department of Water Resource, work is in the public domain.
Discharge test February 11 at the Oroville Dam. In the background the concrete weir and the emergency spillway are visible. The main spillway is already damaged and running water started to erode the left bank of the spillway. Image by William Croyle, California Department of Water Resource, work is in the public domain.

As planned, as the lake level rises, the water pours over a concrete weir into the emergency spillway, which is parallel to the main spillway and has a capacity of 15,000 cubic feet per second. However, the actual inflow into the lake is still twice as much as the limited outflow. The unforeseen amount of water (the emergency spillway had never been used since the dam was completed in 1968) started to erode an area of earth downhill the weir.

Discharge test February 11, 2017 at the Oroville Dam. In the background the concrete weir and the emergency spillway are visible. The main spillway is already damaged and running water started to erode the left bank of the spillway. Image by William Croyle, California Department of Water Resource, work is in the public domain.
Discharge test February 11 at the Oroville Dam. In the background the damage done by erosion in the emergency spillway is visible. Image by William Croyle, California Department of Water Resource, work is in the public domain.

The actual danger here is that the headward erosion will erode the slope up to the base of the weir, causing the collapse of the concrete wall of the emergency spillway. (The Oroville Dam itself is at no risk of spillover or even collapse, however). This worst-case scenario would send a 30-foot-wall of water down the Feather River, a tributary to the Sacramento, flooding areas along the Feather and Sacramento River.

According to available geological maps, the Oroville Dam is build on the Smartville ophiolite, consisting of dark grey, steeply-dipping and strongly foliated metamorphic rocks. Once of volcanic origin, erupted in an ancient sea, the rocks were uplifted and metamorphosed during the formation of the Sierra Nevada.

Geological map of Lake Oroville with the Oroville Dam in the lower left corner and geologic legend. Rocks of the Smartville ophiolite in green, tectonic faults are depicted as black lines. California Department of Water Resource, work is in the public domain. Thanks to user @may_gun for the links.

This description seems to match the rocks visible in published photos of the main spillway damage. Some comments have also suggested that the first hole in the main spillway developed above an altered zone of rock, as its more brownish coloration would suggest. Altered rock is more permeable and prone to erosion than massive rock. It's possible that water infiltrated below the concrete of the spillway, eroding the weakened rock until the concrete collapsed into the forming sinkhole. Which means that now running water can directly erode the bedrock, causing more damage (this possible explanation can however only be confirmed by a direct investigation of the exposed rocks).

Metamorphic rocks often cause engineering problems, as such rocks are often folded, resulting in tectonized/fractured areas in an otherwise stable rock mass. Also, the particular structure (the geological correct term is texture) of such rocks poses a problem. Metamorphic foliation forms when elongated or plate-shaped minerals (like micas) are forced by tectonic pressure into a same alignment. Between the minerals the parallel surfaces of the foliation form weak zones, prone to break. If such surfaces are tilted entire packets of rock can easily slip and be washed away by water.

With the emergency spillway the problem is similar, even if the erosion mechanism is not quite the same. The ground around the weir consists of rammed earth (soil consolidated with heavy construction machinery), but the ground of the emergency spillway consists of backfilled soil. This is a cheap and effective method to build dams, but it's also prone to erosion by fast flowing water, especially if the soil becomes soaked with it. Thus, the running water of the spillover is washing away soil, earth and rocks, forming deep gullies. The erosion front is creeping upslope as water flows down the slope.

The great problem now is that neither of the spillways can be used to control the water level in the lake without increasing erosion and damage in one of the spillways. During this storm, using the spillways as much as possible while trying to limit the discharge as much as necessary to slow down the ongoing erosion, the lake level was lowered by 8 feet a day and areas downhill the dam were evacuated as a precautionary measure.

If only the internet had been around at the time the Oroville Dam had been built. Them stupid engineers coulda just came on the fire and asked ol' Crossfire which way is up.

thank you for that admission.

Sycamore

If you're suggesting that the crowd of buffoons that put their "stamps' on the pathetic, miserable piles of schiddt that their work represented when that abortion was commissioned, you're dead right.

GTC

I see what you did there.

I'd venture that a rapid loss of the record snowpacks ( say by WARM rains) are going to verify the bolded.

The question of the day being, can the gates / turbine inlets at the dam,cranked wide open, in synch with the main spillway weirs keep the level of that lake BELOW the level of the headwall that comprises the auxilliary spilloff area. I call that a spilloff area cuz' calling it a "spillway" is a phoucin' joke,....and has been a source of confusion in defining WTH is going on up there from the get go.

GTC

Musta' been bothering you no end.
Hope you're sleeping better now.

Now tell us that you've got the BEST handle on what's gone on over there, and go back to sticking pins in your Ronald Reagan doll.



GTC

Evacuation is changed to a warning -- down from an order

They can go home

Crossfire,

I have read they had to shut the flow off through the turbines because the debris and flow down the main spillway has reversed the the flow in the river below the dam and the generators will be damaged because the water cant flow out?

Not sure if this is true and I have no knowledge about such things, just passing on what I read.

This is Higbeans back yard maybe he has more and better info?

Definitely wonder WTF will happen. This is plenty bad enough already - don't need to go full-on third World. Getting very little confidence from the bags of pebbles in the wake...

I would like to point out, AS AN ASIDE, that I have a KOM Railroader hat...

Given what that last post regarding the geo-morphology of the "bedrock" posits,....IF that lake starts running over that spill wall, bags of pebbles aren't gonna' mean jack diddly schidt, and we'll likely see a very bad situation.

Unseasonably cold and DRY weather would be welcomed.

GTC

This evening I finally returned to my friend's home that I've been staying with for the last two months. I'm currently about a mile away from the Feather River in Gridley California.

SCARY SCHIT !!!

Especially since my buddy's wife works for the DFG and has friends that work for the DWR. There's a whole nother story about what occurred that hasn't been told ... yet.

FWIW, it was psycho getting out of here on Sunday.

WOW - Tell us something juicy!

And the "whole nother story" is what ?

Basically, more damage that what's being reported and how close to the schit being spattered all over N Ca it really was.

I heard things today that made my skin crawl.

That's all I have to say about that.

Was it Masons?

Russians...

Thanks, Forrest!

That doesn't seem to make sense. The water going into the turbines comes in far below the level of the spillway, and IIRC the intake is screened. If they've had to shut down the turbines, there must be something else to it.

It's been several decades since I toured the interior of the facility and can't remember - isn't there a bypass?

I read the same thing; elevated river levels compromising the discharge flow from the plant.

Is that 60 minutes up yet?

Longest 60 min ever!

Well, this is starting to make some sense,....

A.) The backwash / reverse flow / elevated river level from the main spillway hydraulically stalling the turbines ( the discharges of which are not screened ?)
B.) Mandatory use of failing main spillway now dictated by bogus emergency / auxiliary spillway's incipient failure ...
C.) If the weirs feeding the main SW won't handle lake's recharge rate, the emergency / auxiliary SW WILL run ......

....so all this media gas about how the "Manager" were "Controlling" the flows was nothing but more hype,.....

Sounds from here as though Ma nature's taken control of this mess.

All you folks out there have my prayers.

GTC

.

No !!!

[quote][/quote]Russians ?

NO !!!!!

Ronald Reagan plotted alla' this.

OK.

I'll give you this.

The flood gates on the main spillway were in danger of being compromised.

This is what made my skin crawl.

... meanwhile, Gov Jerry Brown has been throwing temper tantrums over the election results and wasting money on 'socially conscious causes' rather than known infrastructure issues.

The Oroville dam was constructed during Pat Brown tenure as governor.
Pat Brown is Moonbeams father. Pat was governor from 1959 to 1967.
The dam was completed in 1968, Reagan was just there for the opening ceremony.

So as usual Sycamore is misleading us inferring it was Reagan's fault.

Pat Brown was before my time but he had a bad reputation and he spawned moonbeam!

Wouldn't surprise me one bit if there was corruption during construction etc....

Studying this:



And This:



After reading this:


FINALLY gives one the idea of what's in play here,....after days of listening to distorted sound bytes, and listening to talking heads blither mutilated notes provided by panic stricken "Water managers"

GTC

....probably as poorly designed / maintained as the rest of that big pile of schidt.

GTC

Gee, Sycamore being a lying POS again. What were the odds....



http://jaytaylormedia.com/who-will-be-blamed-if-the-oroville-dam-fails/





"In a lengthy analysis of the political battle to win approval for the dam, historian Marc Reisner recounted how Governor Pat Brown — father of the current governor — repeatedly fabricated numbers about the dam’s true cost in order to hoodwink the voters into approving the enormously expensive project through a bond issue in 1959.

Reisner showed that honest estimates concluded the dam would cost approximately 3 billion dollars — more than 20 billion in 2016 dollars — so Brown simply invented a number of 1.75 billion. Reisner concluded that Brown knew that “not one” state would vote for such a huge bond issue, so Brown hid the real cost. To get it passed, Brown did what politicians always do — he engaged in fear-mongering and suggested to Southern California voters that they’d run out of water without the new dam.

But even these methods nearly failed to get the dam approved. 48 of 50 counties in the state voted against the dam. The measure only passed because southern Californians, long used to cheap, subsidized water, were happy to see the rest of the state go into debt to pay for even more water."

Just added a pic / drawing to a post above, sorry I didn't put it there first go round,....I THINK that what we're seeing in that hole immediately below that spill wall IS the actual core structure of the "impervious wall".
The minimalist philosophy that defines the engineering of "Earth Filled Dams" DICTATES that that core structure has to have massive weight (overburden) bearing on it from above,.....
....washing it all away is not a very bright idea, and one has to ask, WTF else did they EXPECT that overburden to do ?

GTC

So we have to ask why Kalifornia has spent so many billions of dollars on funding illegal invading aliens and "Social justice causes", and let their infrastructure decay. If the state government had spent 1/10 as much of their tax moneys on improvements and maintenance over the last 30 years as they have spent on funding invaders, I'd bet these things would not be nearly as threatening as they are.

Just a guess....but worth looking at.

Would that help now?
NO! You can't change the past.

But in the near future, about 200,000 displaced people might be a formidable coalition to start to fix their communist government for the better.

Few things will make people get interested in politics as much as loosing their homes and lifetime investments--- because of political agendas they formerly didn't resist or pay attention to.

Crossfire,
I believe the diagram you gave was of the construction of the dam itself.

The question at this point is the construction of the primary and secondary spillways?

I assume both those structures sit on bedrock.

The report you cited indicates the bedrock is of poor integrity. I believe that's the issue?

The real problem is the DWR filled the lakes too fast and too full. Lake Shasta is also way too full for this time of year The Sacramento River is at flood stage even after days of no rain. I drove past it yesterday and it's as high as I've ever seen it in Redding. At Hamilton City the Sac is only 4 to 6 feet from overflowing the levee.

The DWR phooked up BIG TIME.

This near catastrophe never should have happened.

BTW cross, you've been nailing it.

I am not a smart man, but I do know what flood is.

The lib's in Calif. believed in global warming and thought the new normal in Calif. was perpetual drought.

They didn't believe the reservoir would ever fill again.
FOOLS

That nails it. They totally bought into the GW BS. Ooops.

All across the crown of that very poor quality "bedrock", their SHOULD be a blasted out 2-3 stories deep excavation that was filled with reinforced concrete tied to the bedrock with grouted in anchors, ....in front of it, on the sloped surface of the "face" ( the lake side) should lie a reinforced deep mat of reinforced concrete. The area onto which these back alley "engineers and water managers" foresaw emergency runoff ? Crap, that should be a MASSIVE slope of Gabien baskets and rip rap, ....anchored and bolted to the
bedrock, as well.
Alla' this WAS out on the table years ago, and was patently ignored, apparently.
GTC

Crossfire,

I believe you have a pretty good handle on how to go about such things.

Whats amazing to me is how the wizards of smart are consistently wrong !

Liberals are plain dangerous, whether it's our infrastructure our economy or foreign policy.

Thanks, .....damn sure took a while to figure the thing out, though.
Just grabbed this phoucen jewel off a news site



DEFINES the root of this problem,....these idiots actually THINK they have "authority" over this, and other primordially forced events.
Us ?.....mushrooms, ....feed 'em schidt and keep em' in the dark.
GTC

I'll be dammed! THNX

I have to admit I am a bit puzzled by the authorities there letting some of the residents return to the area?
Maybe I'm missing something?

I DO believe that the flat red oxide colored surface visible in the lower right central portion of the pic IS the core / headwall of whatever the hell that's supposed to be.
....a "spillway", emergency or otherwise, it sure as hell AIN'T,....

GTC

infrastructures dont VOTE!

Greg,
It looks more like a giant sinkhole to me. God help those people.

Just a "quick reply"...not to anybody in particular...I'll make a prediction,...... that once the waters recede, we'll see that not only wasn't the main spillway ever in danger of being compromised, but the "emergency" spillway wasn't either...that the erosion we're seeing from the emergency spillway was expected and a concrete apron for the runoff had been proposed years ago. I'm seeing so much misinformation about this it blows my mind....earlier in this thread someone even suggested the laws of physics were reversing the flow of water into the river below and clogging turbines....crazy schitt...

Crossfire, that red oxide you are looking at is soil.
The area has red soil.

Condensed version



yes, there certainly is some crazy schitt audible this AM

And the waterfowl?

Have the mallards gotten the green light yet?

They really lucked out with the break in the weather.

FLAT perfectly sloped soil after a torrent carved that hole,...nope, the triangular shaped sloped material is a CONCRETE structure, mate. looks to be where it ends,
...that or some of it's GONE.

TC

.....Ok...I'll bump this thread back up after the waters recede whether I'm right or wrong....I MAY be wrong, but I don't think so...You gotta admit though....that gem about water and debris flowing back upstream to clog the turbines was pretty funny....

Funny ?
You really ARE a bit lost as regards some pretty BASIC hydraulics, aren't you.

You ever seen the bouyed "chain curtains" that are hung in front of the turbine discharges at MOST hydro dams ?
Worked on them during emergency shutdowns to clear logs that made it over a spillway
.....and then were SUCKED back up stream by the vortices ?
soaked to the bloody bone and freezing your nuts off while trying to wield a heavy exothermic torch ?

I doubt it,.....

Maybe you oughta' grab your stash and head for Oroville to calm everybody with your nonsense, it's not going to sell well here, Bud.

GTC

Yeah, if he thinks sheit can't go back the other way, he ain't been around water much.

An entire army of degreed engineers isn't worth what one man with common sense AND intelligence, that knows how and why things work the way they do.

That application of common sense and intelligence ought to be the most important part of an engineer's license test.

But, it's a hard thing to put into an examination.

Well, you of all people would have a damn good feel for that.

Dealing with the off the wall crap that turns up on these threads is truly a character development exercise.

I just get sorely PISSED at having third grade level child-speak thrown at me by these "media" types,....as noted the distillation of complete gibberish handed them by factotums that are paid , VERY well paid to behave and speak as scientists,.....not a herd of azz covering political bag lickers.
This all becomes REALLY important , now that we begin looking inward at our infrastructure,....a "test case" as it were.
The original prints for the contracts let on this dam reside somewhere,....let's hope they don't get "destroyed by mildew and mold" the way the ones for the Nimitz Freeway so conveniently were.

GTC

The counties in trouble voted red. Hell most of Northern California above sac and the gay area is red.

Probably a regional thing but you should know that most men don't use their mouths for that.

Be sure to floss.



Thanks,
Dave

Yeah, I'll give it to Butte county, Brown didn't even win there.

Unfortunately, they know what the rest of the flyover states know.

I've lost track - which photo are you speaking of?

What everybody will eventually find out is how close to the equivalent of a friggin' nuclear bomb going off that it really was. I'm not a religious man but Thank God the worst didn't occur.

The Sheriff of Butte County did the right thing in issuing the mandatory evacuation order.

IMHO, it won't be all clear until they get the lake down another hundred feet plus. Odds are we're safe enough for now though.

I'm not gonna start hurling insults, but the way I understood that post had nothing at all to do "buoyed" steel curtains in front of turbines....it was the suggestion that somehow the river level below the dam was high enough to force water and debris back up into the turbines and back uphill into the lake....it's IMPOSSIBLE for that to happen...

Interesting that Pat Brown resided over the planning, financing and construction over the dam.

And his son Jerry Brown resided over the maintenance, and both appeared to have failed.

No one said anything about back to Lake level... it is about stalling turbines due to erratic flow and compromised outlets. Plenty enough to get crap back into the turbines.

I totally agree with this part...but it was also a situation that was caused by the DWR operators who made the bad decision to reduce the flows enough to allow water over the emergency spillway in the first place...there are reports from a LONG ways back that address the erosion that would happen from the emergency spillway and a concrete "apron" had been proposed YEARS ago.

Honest question here....

The intakes for the turbines are two giant "tubes" running down the slope on the south side of the reservoir. They're screened on top, and, IIRC, have gates to choose at which level the water is allowed in. They can therefore take water from a much higher pressure than the water backing up at the discharge. How can that stall the turbines?

Not impossible at all! The main spillway discharge enters the river channel at a 90deg. angle, easy to see how it could flow both ways with enough volume.

It will never back up to lake level, but could back up enough to affect the turbines discharge.

I haven't heard anything, from the inside skinny, about the turbines being affected but if happened I should find out in the next few days.

Oh - this photo?...



How about another angle?



That ain't no core.

What "eratic flow"??? You'd need either a lid on the lake creating a vacuum or giant whirlpools sucking air before anything like that could happen.... And you can compromise the outlet as much as you want....the hydro pressure from above will not allow a backflow....like I said, it's against the laws of physics...

Ooh. Burn.

You didn't clarify your comment, c ock gobbler.

That's an access road below the emergency spillway...

Read what Steelhead posted
....include my dittos
Your initial post was pretty damned rude and insulting, and you're getting nothing more back than that sorta' stupid wise azzed nonsense deserves.

it's a picture of a different part of that abortion, somewhat far removed, I believe.

GTC

So far removed that it isn't part of the actual structure. And by that, I mean where material was moved and built up. It's just a road on the ridge under the lip of the concrete apron that is the emergency spillway - which goes over the existing ridge.

Yup, the increased back pressure starts STALLING the turbines, and computer controlled respond by increasing the excitation voltages,....bad electrical catastrophes ensue. In the case of debris actually being inducted, the almost incalculable forces involved can break the shafts / gear trains
......the equivalent of a powerful bomb going off.

GTC

Greg,
I think I 'misspoke'. I should have said that your photo reminded me of a giant sinkhole. Didn't mean it in the literal sense.

OK, so WHAT is pictured in the first pic I posted this AM ? It damn sure isn't that "different angle" schidt.

DIFFERENT SPOT, and your call out on being lost is a good one.

Look it all over again, carefully this time, you should see what we mean.

GTC

I wouldn't call it a sinkhole, so much as a washout,....but that's a small beer at this point.

The point being is that the WEIGHT of the missing strata is what HOLDS the grout curtain and sub wall in place against the forces being applied on the lake side.

a shisttitic formation capped with schidty engineering.

GTC

I'm just seeing a LOT of misinformation and outright speculation being put forth as FACT posted here....kind of like what the MSM is putting out, and most of it is BS hyperbole....

Well this is a high stakes dilemma. The authorities are giving out misinformation and that fuels speculation.

Wish I had more confidence in the wizards of smart.

So now I am really scratching my head. That was not the first photo you posted this AM? I can't find another earlier. And yes - that one and the one I posted below it are the exact same spot.

So, if that is all correct, I take it simply that fluctuating backpressure is a very bad thing - and that makes sense. Still, for some reason, I had thought I remembered there being a way to let water pass through without spinning the turbines - but as I said, it was a long time ago when I saw it all close up.

It doesn't appear as though the spillway is part of the actual dam itself but is instead part of the surrounding landscape?

Snakeriver,
Correct the spillways are on an adjacent ridge, separate from the dam.

And not only that, a lot of people (not necessarily pointing at anyone here) are assuming the the structure and the ridge below the waterline are essentially vertical, which, of course is far from the truth.

That is not to say that a catastrophic failure is impossible, but it would be an (admittedly huge and accelerated) erosion event - not a collapse, as so many seem to fear.

And for good reason. As bad as the damage looks to the primary spill way there is no threat from it to the main dam structure.
I have seen another image that shows an emergency spill way to the left of the damaged one. Over nothing but raw terrain. That seems to be a Hail Mary situation to save the main dam structure. There is a lot of stuff that can be controled at this point, but how much water ends up coming down that water shed is NOT one of them.

Nope,....LOOK at the photos posted WAY back,....two different washouts.

Begging mercy here. Help a fella out and point the photo out please.

The geometry I'm seeing, and the repeated call out of "30 feet" indicates that that spill wall over the un clad "ridge" is 30 feet in height, and the sucker sure looks like it could blow out.

Hope not.

ALL predicated on the two OTHER routes of drainage being able to carry the high volume runoff anticipated.

GTC

The spillway is part of the dam

The turbines use most of that head up doing work turning the generator. The discharge is at a much lower pressure.

Yup,....and THANKS for pointing this out.

GTC

At the top, it is.

Cross - what I have read is that core samples showed that bedrock begins 30' below the emergency spillway. It is expected that erosion would undercut the concrete apron to that point in short order, but then stop or be significantly slowed.

The upper photo in YOUR post is the one I first posted this AM,....get it ?

It is NOT the same area as your "different angle" photo below,...

sorry you can't see that.

GTC