Rock Chuck,
So that's what good guides do!
I've guided and been guided, and been around plenty of guided hunters. Most guides do try to get within sure range, but some clients don't want to get close, partly due to the recent long-range trend. When I talked to that Colorado elk outfitter, one of his recent elk clients told the guide he was good out to 600 yards. First, the guy completely missed one elk at a little under 500, then wounded another at around 400, which they had to chase around for a while and shoot some more. That was with a 7mm Remington Magnum.
Then there are the clients who can't shoot worth a damn even at 100 yards. About 15 years ago I went on a multi-species horseback hunt in British Columbia, and one of the other guys in camp couldn't keep shots from his brand-new .300 Winchester Magnum in a 1-foot circle at 100 yards, from a benchrest. He'd bought the .300 rather than bring his long-time hunting rifle, a .280, because he was hunting elk and moose and thought the .280 wouldn't be enough. His guide was not happy with the benchrest results, so tried get the client as close as possible to a moose, elk and caribou, but the clients still took around 20 shots to kill the three animals.
Then there are the clients who shoot fine at the scope-checking target but get excited in the field. A long-time brown bear guide in Alaska was very happy when one of his clients shot the scope-check, but the guy absolutely fell apart when they stalked within "sure" range of a big bear. He wounded it and the guide had to go into the brush and shoot the charging bear--and no, he did not allow the client to accompany him. But the same guide has had a number of clients make clean kills on big bears with .270's, 7mm Remington Magnums and .30-06's. He's happy to take them, because they usually shoot well.
His experience, and that of other long-time guides and outfitters I've known, plus my own guiding experience, is that clients almost never wound animals by being under-gunned, whether they're hunting deer, elk, moose or brown bears. Instead over 90% of the time the problem is being over-gunned to the point of flinching. This apparently never happens to Campfire members, but the consensus is that somewhere around the .300 magnum level the majority of guided clients start flinching. One close outfitter friend, who's been guiding mule deer hunters in eastern Montana for over 40 years, says only 20% of his clients who bring a .300 magnum of some sort can cleanly kill deer at 200 yards.
Oh, and the Colorado elk outfitter said one guy who brought a .257 Weatherby Magnum made a clean kill at 400 yards. That outfitter's also had far more problems with guys shooting magnum cartridges from .300 up than people who brought rifles chambered for cartridges like the .270 Winchester.
My general experience is that outfitters who have a "cartridge" minimum generally don't know much about bullets. Among my acquaintances (I can't really call them friends) is a Colorado couple who've been guiding elk hunters on private land for over 30 years. Their minimum is the 7mm Remington Magnum, apparently because that's what both husband and wife shoot. They won't allow .270's in their camp. If you try to discuss bullets with them, they start talking bullet weights rather than brands.
Have encountered the same thing in Texas a number of times, where aoudad and nilgai outfitters strongly suggest a minimum of .300 magnum, or even .338's or .375's. Yet on a nilgai hunt some years ago, when the .270 WSM was brand-new, a party of 15 hunters used 140-grain Fail Safes to take 15 bulls and 15 cows. By the end of the hunt the guides and outfitter were declaring the .270 WSM one of the best nilgai cartridges they'd ever seen. Some this was due to good shooting, some to the bullets, and some to the guides--but when 30 nilgai are taken, some of the shots aren't going to be on unalarmed animals standing perfectly broadside inside 200 yards. And neither are all shots when guiding clients to 30 elk a year in Colorado.
My son guided some elk hunts in Wyoming his first year out of school. When I visited with him he told me about a hunter who showed up with a 30-378 Weatherby Mag, said it was one of the most beautiful and impressive rifles he had ever seen and he intended on getting one. I asked, how well did the rifle kill the elk? My sons reply, the man shot at 3 different elk and couldn't hit any of them. I then asked, do you by chance remember the quickest kill of the hunt and what cartridge was being used? His reply, there was a man useing a 6.5X55 swede who dropped his elk in its tracks and the elk was dead. I said, don't forget that!
Trystan
