Originally Posted by FreeMe
Originally Posted by BufordBoone
Originally Posted by Cheyenne
Originally Posted by FreeMe
The *hoax* was the narrative that the FBI, post Orlando, needed an "upgrade" in pistol caliber. That was really only needed as a diversion from the sorry fact of bad training, among other things.

While I believe that this is true, the 115 grain cup and core bullets the police were carrying back then were not as good as the bonded and heavier bullets on the market today. Those were the result of a lot of R&D. The .40 S&W offered better performance with the bullets of the era in which it was invented and became popular.


"Post Orlando"? What happened in Orlando and when was it?

Sorry. Miami, not Orlando. Excuse the senior moment.

I figured you had made a slip but then nobody corrected you and I wondered what I had missed.

There was no "Hoax". The people that ran that program, at that time, seriously looked for a better solution. Who could have known that it was really a failure of a bullet design as opposed to caliber? (BTW, I am not claiming that was the only failure that day).

Additionally, caliber was not the only thing the FBI changed as a result of that incident.

The most significant thing to come out of that incident and the FBIs response to it was a scientifically repeatable method of comparing projectile performance. This led to ammunition manufacturers making better bullets.

The "best" bullets of today are a far cry better than the "best" bullets of the late 80s (like FreeMe mentioned).

I think all of us that are interested in firearms have benefited from the advancements that the FBI and its testing drove forward.

To the point of the thread, the .40 S&W is a fine cartridge that, in my opinion, is too much for most people to handle when loaded to capacity. Even among those that can handle it, many of them are more efficient and effective with a 9mm.

If one were to pick the best terminally performing loads in 9, .40 and .45 Auto, it would be difficult (perhaps impossible) to scientifically rank one as better than another.

I like to remind people who say "LE is switching back to 9mm" that LE is actually "Switching forward to good 9mms".

Somewhere I recall a report from the late 80s that said something to the effect of "Expect this protocol to result in better performing bullets in all calibers. Expect the 9mm to gain more than the .45 because it has more growing to do".

I recall someone saying "Hate the bullet, don't hate the caliber" and "If not for the bullet, nobody would fear the gun".