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Re: "All things work together for Good". [Re: antlers] #15197756 09/05/20
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Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by ctsmith
Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by ctsmith
I'm pissed.
Chill sometime. grin
Leading others to hell tends to upset me.
Aren’t the ones that end up in hell predestined to go there...?
grin



True, yes true. Chill. Deep breath.........

Actually you make a great point. Situations like this is what helped me see the light. I realized there's nothing that can be said or done to change a person's mind. God is the only one that can remove the scales.

BP-B2

Re: "All things work together for Good". [Re: ctsmith] #15197792 09/05/20
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Originally Posted by ctsmith
And BTW, I've got GAY friends.


Some folks at work tried to trap me by setting up a lunch with me and a new employed who happened to be a homo. At one point he mentioned he is a queer, trying to get some kind of rise out of me. I told him I didn't see any difference in his life style and a person who habitually ran stop signs. Both were sinful and both needed to be repented from. He, and the others who set me up, were surprised at my reaction to his claim.

God's Word is very clear, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." The first word recorded at the beginning of Jesus' ministry after Satan finished tempting Him was, "Repent." Matthew 4:17

According to Clark it's okay to not repent of some sins. What does Jesus say about that? It is better for a mill stone to be hung around their neck and they be town into the sea than to cause one to stumble. Scary.


"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
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Re: "All things work together for Good". [Re: wabigoon] #15197823 09/05/20
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I've been out of pocket today so please excuse me if my question/remark is impertinent to today's discussion but I've wondered if Judas was saved. I don't see how he could have been more sorry and repentant for what he did. He went back and told the ones who hired him how wrong he was, threw their money back at them, and then he was so distraught he went out and hung himself.


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Re: "All things work together for Good". [Re: Hastings] #15197830 09/05/20
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Originally Posted by Hastings
I've been out of pocket today so please excuse me if my question/remark is impertinent to today's discussion but I've wondered if Judas was saved. I don't see how he could have been more sorry and repentant for what he did. He went back and told the ones who hired him how wrong he was, threw their money back at them, and then he was so distraught he went out and hung himself.


Jesus said, “The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born” .

My logic is that it is better to be born, regardless, if the ending destination is heaven.

Re: "All things work together for Good". [Re: Hastings] #15197850 09/05/20
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I'd say no. Mark 14:21 is why I say this.


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Re: "All things work together for Good". [Re: wabigoon] #15197856 09/05/20
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Ctsmith beat me to it.


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Re: "All things work together for Good". [Re: antlers] #15197907 09/05/20
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Originally Posted by ctsmith
I encourage you to finish, you haven't made it to the meat. I'm not trying to persuade you to change your doctrine, but to know your opponent.
From Lecture 4 “...no one can come to Me unless it is given to him by the Father.” - John 6:65
He said no man, in and of himself, has the natural ability or desire to come to Jesus...‘unless’ it is granted by the Father.
And granted doesn’t just mean enticed-or wooed-it means compelled. He said that no man can come to Jesus unless the Father compels him to do it.
And he said the gracious work of God, through the Holy Spirit, makes people regenerate, and ‘that’ begins one’s justification. He says free will has nothing to do with it.
This is what I got, from this lecture, to be his beliefs regarding this subject matter.


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Re: "All things work together for Good". [Re: ctsmith] #15197945 09/05/20
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Originally Posted by ctsmith
Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by ctsmith
I'm pissed.
Chill sometime. grin


Leading others to hell tends to upset me.


The God of Love and Tender Mercy should be more understanding.

Re: "All things work together for Good". [Re: Ringman] #15198743 09/06/20
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Originally Posted by Ringman
Originally Posted by ctsmith
And BTW, I've got GAY friends.


Some folks at work tried to trap me by setting up a lunch with me and a new employed who happened to be a homo. At one point he mentioned he is a queer, trying to get some kind of rise out of me. I told him I didn't see any difference in his life style and a person who habitually ran stop signs. Both were sinful and both needed to be repented from. He, and the others who set me up, were surprised at my reaction to his claim.

God's Word is very clear, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." The first word recorded at the beginning of Jesus' ministry after Satan finished tempting Him was, "Repent." Matthew 4:17

According to Clark it's okay to not repent of some sins. What does Jesus say about that? It is better for a mill stone to be hung around their neck and they be town into the sea than to cause one to stumble. Scary.


I never said it was OK to not repent for sins.What I would say is that I don't have to be worried or even concerned that I have sinned or will in fact keep on sinning. I did all my repenting at the moment I was born again.

You like to quote the passage from Romans 3 "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" . You totally missed the 2 verses before however which say."Now, the righteousness of God, without obedience to the law, is manifested unto all,and upon all who believe." Paul goes on in verse 28 of Rom.3 to restate the conclusion. Verse 28,"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified without the deeds of the law."

The fact that you can skip over these most important verses and still teach people that their righteousness is based on their obeying scripture is simply astounding.

Re: "All things work together for Good". [Re: Ringman] #15198757 09/06/20
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Originally Posted by Ringman
Originally Posted by ctsmith
And BTW, I've got GAY friends.


Some folks at work tried to trap me by setting up a lunch with me and a new employed who happened to be a homo. At one point he mentioned he is a queer, trying to get some kind of rise out of me. I told him I didn't see any difference in his life style and a person who habitually ran stop signs. Both were sinful and both needed to be repented from. He, and the others who set me up, were surprised at my reaction to his claim.

God's Word is very clear, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." The first word recorded at the beginning of Jesus' ministry after Satan finished tempting Him was, "Repent." Matthew 4:17

According to Clark it's okay to not repent of some sins. What does Jesus say about that? It is better for a mill stone to be hung around their neck and they be town into the sea than to cause one to stumble. Scary.


Must have been one helluva professional setting if you were able to walk around preaching to everyone.

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Re: "All things work together for Good". [Re: ctsmith] #15198785 09/06/20
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Originally Posted by ctsmith
Originally Posted by R_H_Clark
Originally Posted by ctsmith
Originally Posted by R_H_Clark

Sorry for any false assumptions. I wouldn't phrase the question as "apart" from scripture. What I would say is that scripture,and not only that contained in the Christian bible, has enabled me to see in such a way that I wouldn't look to scripture for all my answers as I once did. If we are truly right now "Seated in heavenly places in Christ",as the scriptures tell us,then why look for answers in what Christ told a follower 2000 years ago as the final authority?

If you also thoughtfully consider how much of our interpretation of foundational scripture is skewed by culture,and always has been with the English Catholic being among the first, it becomes evident that scripture has always been manipulated. Possibly that's why God has a better way. The whole purpose of Jesus was so you can be ONE with God. That's what Jesus preached and if you preach that today you get the same legalistic reaction about "What scriptures do you obey and which ones do you break?" It doesn't matter at all because in HIM,I have obeyed them all. In me I broke them all. It doesn't matter though if I am trusting in HIM rather than in me. If I am always looking for things to do better or constantly guilty for not being good enough,I am still looking at me and will never be full and fulfilled until I stop that and start just looking at perfection,and I mean me as perfect,cause you can't separate us,one from the other.



This is how we end up with ordained openly gay pastors.

I guess being gay is about the worst sin you can think of. Just goes to show where your mind is. What would you think about having a self righteous pastor? Would that ever occur to you as a sin? I sort of doubt it. How about the difference between a pastor who is attracted to men and admits it is a sin and trying to overcome it verses a pastor who gets drunk occasionally and slaps his wife around? Hey, how about one who weighs 350 and is eating his self to death without a clue? Which sin is the greatest?



All sin is the same in God's eyes, but teachers of the word are held to higher standards by God.

A non repentant gay, drunk, adulterer, child molester, whatever, in the pattern of sin is headed straight to hell and leading a congregation to hell. This is so sad and makes me freaking angry. Its no different than a pastor being married, having girlfriends, and bringing them to Church, and the leadership approving of it. There is a special place in hell. Sorry, I'm pissed.







I had a bit of the smart ass rise up in me during this thread.I should be more graceful.

When I told you originally to seek TRUTH, what I meant was that every situation would have to be looked at by the people who are involved in it. I can't see any pastor involved openly in sin as being effective as a pastor. What does that really mean though? Does it really mean that pastors are sinning but just pretty good at hiding it? Sure they do. Everybody sins,and everybody justifies their own sins and condemns the sins of others. It's just the way humans try to feel good about themselves. We see some sins as horrible,and some as acceptable,but that says more about society than about God.

Another good question is why do we want to see our pastors as sinless? Does that mean we are placing too much importance on the pastor as if we can only be lead by a sinless man? If that's the case then we are certainly looking for the pastor to fulfill the role of Jesus.

I don't know that I could ever have a gay pastor. I really doubt it. It might be better though to have an honest gay pastor who shows his faults and is as honest about them as he can be,than to have a pastor who is stealing from the church,cheating on his wife with the secretary,and getting drunk on communion wine,but is just really good at covering everything up.

Re: "All things work together for Good". [Re: deflave] #15198786 09/06/20
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Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by Ringman
Originally Posted by ctsmith
And BTW, I've got GAY friends.


Some folks at work tried to trap me by setting up a lunch with me and a new employed who happened to be a homo. At one point he mentioned he is a queer, trying to get some kind of rise out of me. I told him I didn't see any difference in his life style and a person who habitually ran stop signs. Both were sinful and both needed to be repented from. He, and the others who set me up, were surprised at my reaction to his claim.

God's Word is very clear, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." The first word recorded at the beginning of Jesus' ministry after Satan finished tempting Him was, "Repent." Matthew 4:17

According to Clark it's okay to not repent of some sins. What does Jesus say about that? It is better for a mill stone to be hung around their neck and they be town into the sea than to cause one to stumble. Scary.


Must have been one helluva professional setting if you were able to walk around preaching to everyone.


Its terribly professional in his imagination time.

Re: "All things work together for Good". [Re: R_H_Clark] #15198828 09/06/20
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Originally Posted by R_H_Clark
Originally Posted by Ringman
Originally Posted by ctsmith
And BTW, I've got GAY friends.


Some folks at work tried to trap me by setting up a lunch with me and a new employed who happened to be a homo. At one point he mentioned he is a queer, trying to get some kind of rise out of me. I told him I didn't see any difference in his life style and a person who habitually ran stop signs. Both were sinful and both needed to be repented from. He, and the others who set me up, were surprised at my reaction to his claim.

God's Word is very clear, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." The first word recorded at the beginning of Jesus' ministry after Satan finished tempting Him was, "Repent." Matthew 4:17

According to Clark it's okay to not repent of some sins. What does Jesus say about that? It is better for a mill stone to be hung around their neck and they be town into the sea than to cause one to stumble. Scary.


I never said it was OK to not repent for sins.What I would say is that I don't have to be worried or even concerned that I have sinned or will in fact keep on sinning. I did all my repenting at the moment I was born again.

You like to quote the passage from Romans 3 "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" . You totally missed the 2 verses before however which say."Now, the righteousness of God, without obedience to the law, is manifested unto all,and upon all who believe." Paul goes on in verse 28 of Rom.3 to restate the conclusion. Verse 28,"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified without the deeds of the law."

The fact that you can skip over these most important verses and still teach people that their righteousness is based on their obeying scripture is simply astounding.


The fact you can skip over the New Testament instructions, which is Scripture is simply astounding. God's Word teaches us to grow in grace and knowledge. It does not tell us to continue in sin to grace may abound.


"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
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Re: "All things work together for Good". [Re: R_H_Clark] #15198846 09/06/20
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Originally Posted by R_H_Clark
Another good question is why do we want to see our pastors as sinless? Does that mean we are placing too much importance on the pastor as if we can only be lead by a sinless man?


The first answer is instinct. The second is a resounding, NO!

The Bible is very clear about church leaders.
"It is a trustworthy statement: If any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires. An overseer, then must be above reproach, the husband of one wife......" 1 Timothy 3:1-2


"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
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Re: "All things work together for Good". [Re: Ringman] #15198897 09/06/20
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Originally Posted by Ringman
Originally Posted by R_H_Clark
Originally Posted by Ringman
Originally Posted by ctsmith
And BTW, I've got GAY friends.


Some folks at work tried to trap me by setting up a lunch with me and a new employed who happened to be a homo. At one point he mentioned he is a queer, trying to get some kind of rise out of me. I told him I didn't see any difference in his life style and a person who habitually ran stop signs. Both were sinful and both needed to be repented from. He, and the others who set me up, were surprised at my reaction to his claim.

God's Word is very clear, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." The first word recorded at the beginning of Jesus' ministry after Satan finished tempting Him was, "Repent." Matthew 4:17

According to Clark it's okay to not repent of some sins. What does Jesus say about that? It is better for a mill stone to be hung around their neck and they be town into the sea than to cause one to stumble. Scary.


I never said it was OK to not repent for sins.What I would say is that I don't have to be worried or even concerned that I have sinned or will in fact keep on sinning. I did all my repenting at the moment I was born again.

You like to quote the passage from Romans 3 "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" . You totally missed the 2 verses before however which say."Now, the righteousness of God, without obedience to the law, is manifested unto all,and upon all who believe." Paul goes on in verse 28 of Rom.3 to restate the conclusion. Verse 28,"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified without the deeds of the law."

The fact that you can skip over these most important verses and still teach people that their righteousness is based on their obeying scripture is simply astounding.


The fact you can skip over the New Testament instructions, which is Scripture is simply astounding. God's Word teaches us to grow in grace and knowledge. It does not tell us to continue in sin to grace may abound.


When Paul said,"Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound," He wasn't admonishing everyone to give up sinning. He was responding the ridiculous question he kept being asked by legalistic minded people just like you. Paul preached Grace. Those like you couldn't believe that grace could come to those still sinning. Paul tells them that this is a ridiculous thing to even ask. Being born again means that you want to do what's right,not that you want an insurance policy where you can stay the same and still be OK. Paul's point is that if you are born again your "want to" changes. YOU CHANGE! It then becomes a stupid question to ask "shall we sin so grace may abound?" It's not a question a saved person needs answered because it's not what a saved person thinks. It's stupid because Paul just explained how sin is no longer king in your life.It's a question asked by people who are obsessed with sin rather than grace.

Re: "All things work together for Good". [Re: R_H_Clark] #15199146 09/06/20
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Originally Posted by R_H_Clark


. I did all my repenting at the moment I was born again.





But were they born again? The thousands at a Billy Graham revival that were "saved" and never thought another thing about it after they left the event. Their life and pattern of sin didnt change, were they born again?

Assume one is a thief. Friend gets him in church one day and by golly he sees the light. Does the Alter Call. Continues to rob from you and me. Never says a prayer. Never reads the Word. Looks like the same man, nothing changes. Has no inclination to stop and has no inclination to return our stuff (repent). Is he born again?

The new birth is just that, one does not resemble their old self. Paul clearly spells out the test.

Re: "All things work together for Good". [Re: ctsmith] #15199239 09/06/20
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Originally Posted by ctsmith
Originally Posted by R_H_Clark


. I did all my repenting at the moment I was born again.





But were they born again? The thousands at a Billy Graham revival that were "saved" and never thought another thing about it after they left the event. Their life and pattern of sin didnt change, were they born again?

Assume one is a thief. Friend gets him in church one day and by golly he sees the light. Does the Alter Call. Continues to rob from you and me. Never says a prayer. Never reads the Word. Looks like the same man, nothing changes. Has no inclination to stop and has no inclination to return our stuff (repent). Is he born again?

The new birth is just that, one does not resemble their old self. Paul clearly spells out the test.


I completely agree about a total change being necessary. That's the whole point of born again. You are not the same at all. We need to change our definition of saved to mean "changed" rather than "guilted into repeating a prayer". Christians need to learn however that change comes first on the inside and as it's cultivated,it just naturally shows on the outside for everyone to see. What a lot of Christians do is to make a show on the outside by proclaiming all the rules that must be followed,and you must do this,or act in this way only,and that's how you get your inside changed. God changes the inside,and then gives you the grace to change the outside. You are saved when the inside changes, but the more the outside looks the same the more you will suffer from whatever sins still have you in bondage.

When you have this "wanting to do what's right" inside you, you don't need to constantly look for answers by racking your brain to find scripture that leads or guides or comforts.Just by submitting to "doing what's right" you open yourself up to total self examination.You won't need the rule book to tell you what you need to do in your life. You will find that just by seeking to do what's right and looking for as much real TRUTH as you can learn about any situation, you will KNOW what to do.

It's infinitely better to be lead by the Spirit OF Truth who can advise you about the specifics of your life just like he advised Paul about the specifics of his life. The scriptures are incredibly valuable but they don't need to be read as if every word is God speaking to you. God can certainly speak through them,but the reason Jesus died was so he could speak directly to you,and much more than that also.



Last edited by R_H_Clark; 09/06/20.
Re: "All things work together for Good". [Re: wabigoon] #15199353 09/06/20
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It’s pretty common for some people to conclude that certain others are guilty of this or that before they have all the information. They have a limited amount of information about a person’s actions but they still jump to a conclusion that they are guilty. It’s a common reaction to some in our society because truth is rarely the goal. More often than not, condemnation is the goal.
That can be seen often on these spiritual and theological threads, where some doubt or question...or even flat-out deny...another persons salvation. And they seem to relish doing it.
But what they really mean is they're not liking the fact that you are not agreeing with them on these spiritual and theological matters.



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Re: "All things work together for Good". [Re: wabigoon] #15199606 09/06/20
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R H Clark

antlers would give specific examples of living by the means that you guys agree on.

That you fellas believe what you say is fairly evident since you’ve been saying it over and over for much of this thread. What you ask is that people believe you and your approach but you are very general and vague about the matter. I’m a natural skeptic and am not prone to being emotionally or psychologically manipulated. I’m sure that many here are very similar to me.

If I might, I’ll ask the question if you with Antlers refused to answer. What spiritual growth or knowledge have you gained through your internal (extra Biblical) experience? Please, I’m asking for specific things that you have accomplished not these vague theories on how others are not experiencing all that they can because they don’t believe as you do. If this is real it is reasonable that you can give us a significant list of accomplishments.

Re: "All things work together for Good". [Re: IZH27] #15199678 09/06/20
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Jesus came to offer us undeserved, unearned, unearnable favor. He leaned toward guilty people and sinners. It was a brand-new system that He came to invite us into. Grace...I truly believe it is the solution for just about everything. I truly believe that extending grace is the greatest opportunity that we’ll ever have, relationally, while we’re on this earth.


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