One of the nicest, cleanest pre 64 Model 70's I have seen in a long while, here is an extra clean FWT in 308. Original owner tells me this came from momma with this recoil pad and some books indicate that these did come that way at times. That said, I am NO expert on pre 64's except in the fact that I love how they work and are dead tough reliable. Whether factory or not, here it is and it is PRETTY. Bolt face looks nearly unfired, and the extractor blade looks uncycled. Blueing and stock finish are absolutely perfect, as you will see in the photos. Heck, even the sight HOOD is still there! Not at all common on these, as the hoods tend to go flying off when the rifle is fired.

I Can consider a partial trade for a Smith and Wesson 357, or a lightweight 44 revolver such as a Titanium Taurus, Smith 329PD, Charter arms Target bulldog etc and I would love to have another Kel Tec PMR30 as well. Description is accurate, and photos are many so all sales final.

$1195 shipped to your FFL or C&R, slightly less if purchased in conjunction with its littermate, a 1946 Transition model in 270 with a Malcolm Smith Model G scope, also listed here.














[img]http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a7/safariman416/38380054_zpsa03c220a.jpg[/img]

For the smart alecky types, no there is not a bipod or detachable magazine with it!

That is a very nice looking rifle. Good luck with the sale.

DOM?

What version of 357 Smith you looking for?

Stock has been chopped, pad added ? What is LOP?

I am not sure you are correct about that, I was told it was factory. I have not measured the LOP. Feels about like any other regular factory stock.

The recoil pad has me wondering as well... Everything I can find on the factory recoil pad option from Winchester involved their solid red recoil pad, that they used on their magnums. From what I read Winchester didn't use a honey comb recoil pad. Now if that recoil pad says Winchester mystery solved. Where are the Winchester experts at on this as well.

They're over on the Winchester Collectors Forum reading Mark's for sale add there before he post it here, on The Classified Forum...

"I am sincerely hoping that a member in good standing here at this forum will be able to stake a claim here and not make me offer these up to the classifieds only hawks at that forum.

Good luck gentlemen!



mark"

My FW 308 has aluminum butt plate

Yes, that is the earlier version.

Yes the featherweights came with a aluminum butt plate then in 58 I think they switched to plastic. I could be wrong on the year they switched to plastic in might have been 59.

The Checkering size & quality went to he!!,about the same time the plastic buttplates went on !
That looks to be the early Checkering ,A very nice piece,in great condition!

'59..

I'm not a Winchester expert, but let me tell you what stands out to me: You have a Type III variation II, which means it was most likely produced in '52. Serial # probably ranges from 206,000-240,xxx. Please correct me if I'm wrong. The stock is not original to the action since it has the small panel checkering which was produced after '59. The 308 fwt's never came with a recoil pad of any kind unless it was special ordered, but like I said the stock does not match the receiver. Mark, give us some more info on this rifle. You can post the first 3 #'s of the serial followed by "xxx" if you prefer, but give us something. The solid bolt knob is a tell tell hint as to when it was manufactured, unless this is a put together rifle. It's a nice fwt, but there are a couple things here that don't match up.

This is all good information, gentlemen. I am away from the home right now and cannot get a look at the rifle but surely will later today and get back with you.

I am not a Winchester expert, so all of this is helping me with my learning curve. No one at the Winchester Forums mentioned any of these possible discrepancies. I may have to revise my price on this one down to a good shooter grade price.

MARK

Open to offers and cash/trade ideas

A partial serial number would answer a lot of questions, plus a lop measurement. The pad appears to be an aftermarket modification.
Good luck out there.

in my opinion it is not an original pad, and is it me or does it look like it has been sanded and a light coat of varnish.....or maybe it is just my classified hawk eyes

Some more info from the fire:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...s/5779542/Re_Question_for_Winchester_exp

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5808057/1

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...s/6147189/Re_Winchester_M70_Pre_64_Fwt_3

How much you asking now, or is price the same?

Honest question, Mark. Given all of the information that has come out in this thread, would you have refunded a buyer who agreed to the purchase based on what you said and subsequently found out otherwise?

He clearly states that:

The phrase caveat emptor arises from the fact that buyers often have less information about the good or service they are purchasing, while the seller has more information. Defects in the good or service may be hidden from the buyer, and only known to the seller. Thus, the buyer should beware. This is called information asymmetry.

Mark clearly said a lot of things in that post. Some were accurate and others were not, so I'm asking how he would have handled the situation I described for my own future knowledge. As you said, caveat emptor.

I wouldn't buy ANY firearm sight unseen ( pix don't count. Especially crappy ones) without a three day inspection.

Mark, can't tell by the pics but it looks like a solid bolt knob, is this the case or does it have a hollow knob?

The recoil pad is a 325 Pachmayer and not well done.

Since the concensus is that the pad is not original, I am willing to negotiate downward on the price. I have not come up with a firm price yet, quite open to offers.

I may have commited a little too much to this rifle, not knowing enough about them, but am hoping to recoup at least the bulk of the investment.

Feel free to hit me with what you would consider a fair amount for this rifle. Stock aside, the metal is all in outstanding condition.

Often used as an easy out.

The floorplate appears scratched with some possible bluing wear, and the front action screw looks partially stripped.

Do screws count when describing outstanding condition? Floorplates? Didn't realize that.

After some reading BSA is spot on that stock is a 59 or newer. The recoil pad could be factory Winchester in 1959 switched to that style they were made by pachmyr and stamped Winchester. Also in 1959 Winchester changed their process for finishing stocks they appear to have a lacquer finish. BSA was spot on the checkering another indicator it was made after 1959 Winchester did not get the stock checkering machine online until mid 1960. When they did it resulted in reduction in pattern cover. So again I'm no expert but it looks like this rifle has newer pre 64 stock on it.

Many of these early FWT's had a solid knob not the later hollowed out knob.

Could be interested in the rifle but would like to know if the bolt knob is hollow, can't tell by the pictures. Also, does the magazine box have a spacer in it for short cartridges and does the action have the bolt stop for short cartridges?

Million dollar question it appears to be solid.. A sn would help.

True enough, but from what I see by the stock it should be a later rifle.

That would be nice.

Some of the very earliest Featherweights had solid knob.

A serial number would clear that up. (Along with a picture of the bolt showing electro pencilled matching serial number.)

The earlier stocks would have had the wrap over top metal (Aluminum) butt pad, not the one shown.

August '53 Featherweight Serial Number 266644

Sakoluvr,

When assessing the condition of a pre-'64 Winchester, yes, the condition of the screws and floorplate and everything else do count. In fact they even count when buying a rifle without the Model 70's reputation.

So far this one looks like a shooter grade, but even then overall condition counts.

Mark, don't it piss you off when the original owner told you all those lies about this rifle.. I would almost want to have a chat with him if I had been in your shoes.

Your description sucks, not revealing serial number range, not comparing the LOP with the other model 70 you have for sale just for information purposes as well to explain if the stock has been chopped, and posting pics that look worse than Mathew Brady's work from the Civil War..

Much could be cleared up by using fewer words and better pics.

The excuse about not knowing much about Model 70's just don't wash as you know the information to omit too well.

As Gen George Patton said, I read your book!

I was just being a smart ass.

The metal and bluing all look great Mark, plus it still has the original front hood. When you have the rifle in your hands, could you get us the first 3 digits of the serial #? Thanks buddy..

Yep, the first 308 fwt's (made in '52) had the solid knob. That carried thru till about the middle of '53, so we really need a serial # to know when this rifle was made. I sold a very nice all original first year fwt here last year for $1,200.00. It had the solid bolt knob, which was original to the rifle. These are actually more rare than the others with the hole in the knob, which actually brings the collector value up.

But he's Christian.

Time for another bowl of popcorn.

FWIW, no I am not upset with the other person, he told me what he knew, and I am doing the same. When I am back at home I will give the guns a closer look and report back a few more details.

If you don't like the description or gun, don't buy it! Simple as that.

Used to be considered pretty bad form at a minimum to dis a persons gun for sale, ads here or wares in the open forum.

I would have welcomed some well meaning intel or suggestions via PM's.

I notice it is the same dog piling troublemakers each time this happens, so it does not get to me. Tools will be tools.

As has already been asked�..What is the LOP? It's a very simple measurement.

When I am back at home, (And I think I reffered in this ad to being out of town this week, my apologies if I did not) I will get the LOP measured and look at the serial numbers and post both points of interest or query.

Thank you for an honest and sincere question. I am a little bit busy and distracted here. I WILL get those answers right away when I am in the same state as the guns.

Mine is an honest and sincere question as well that can easily be answered from anywhere in the world.

This is all good information, gentlemen. I am away from the home right now and cannot get a look at the rifle but surely will later today and get back with you.

That it is, and yes I would have. I have refunded a couple of guns over the years (rare instances where I have needed to do so) or added stuff into a deal to make it a more equitable trade or deal according to a buyer. One time even sending a whole nuther gun once, and a Walnut stock Rem 870 Magnum at that, to a person who was unhappy with a purchase to stay on the safe and happy side of the trade world.

To those who have offered insight regarding this rifle with no malice and an honest intent to inform, thank you. I genuinely appreciate the info and help. I will get more info on the rifle and get back with ya'll.

Thanks for the answer and explanation, Mark.

Thanks Mark. I understand.

Same here Mark, I probably couldn't swing it anyhow...

Ferreted out by the Classified Hawks again. No one has dissed your add or your gun... Just pointed out inaccuracies and omissions in your description.

Honesty goes a long way toward fixing a questionable, damaged reputation.

Good evening Mark,

Tough crowd. Looks like a few of you really know your Winchesters!

Just another saga in the life of a cheat and liar. My favorite part is the return policy, unless your money has already been spent, then it's PTFO.

And speaking of cheating and lying, did you ever make things right with those fellas you [bleep] on bullet trades? Seems there was more than one guy still waiting for the trade on your end to show up.

I sent PM's to them offering to make right any oversights, no rely so far. Quite happy to make right any wrongs once I know what they were. I was quite unaware that bullets had not been recieved by them until that old thread. When I send them, as I did, I have no way of knowing if the USPS destroys or loses a package unless someone tells me. I have had empty or nearly empty envelopes that were once full of bullets arrive here, too. But I do not call out the senders or call names of them when that happens.

Did you follow up and give the serial # like others had requested? Hate to say it but I'm also seeing a trend here . . .

I have no intent to "dis" your sale. But like others, have pointed out a couple key bits of info that would help clarify what you have, eg. s/n and lop.
Hope it sells quickly.

Won't have any opportunity to do so until I and the gun are in the same state, as I have said several times in this thread. I should have written down the serial numbers and a few other details before I left for the Cancer Treatment center (in Zion Illinois), but I had other things on my mind.

Thank you for a reasonable and well intentioned post. I will get those details posted as soon as I possibly can. Have to logg off in a few minutes and catch my airplanes home, but if the flights go well I should be able to update this thread with the requested details this evening if I am not too exhausted from the travels. Been a very long, trying week here in Illinois..... And I have to come back in a couple of weeks for a longer stay. Need to sell these rifles in between the two trips if at all possible so I will be adding in as many additional details as I can upon my return home.

Praying for you brother. Let me know if I can help you facilitate sales while you're tied up. Post photos, etc.

Maybe you can run to his house and get a serial #, OAL of the rifle and LOP for those that asked.

Serial number indicates a late version of the Featherweight, 1960 or so and LOP is only apx 13.50 without the pad so the stock definately was cut. LOP is about the normal 14.25 +/- (I have never been real sure of my LOP measurements) looks and feels about normal and standard to me, for most factory rifles.

I will try to post more tomorrow but tonight I have a RAGING headache, sharp, shooting pains in my eyes and left arm, and I am exhausted beyond any kind of reasonable function. Have to cash it in so as my pills (15 of them tonight, just now) and my ice bags give me some relief I can hopefully get to sleep.

On top of all that I have OTHER appointments I have to go to now in Sacramento starting with a Monday morning appointment. A freind from Church is driving me right after Sunday Services. I am in no condition to drive! And thankful for a true freind to drive me down there like Rattler did to get me to the hog hunt last year.

If I have a few minutes between church and leaving, I will check back in here and try to be a little more detailed, as well as answer any other questions that may come up.

Obviously, the rifle is not worth quite my original asking price with the slightly shortened stock so I am happy to hear of any offers whether all cash or cash plus one or more of the handguns I listed before as big time wants / needs of mine.

I will have my laptop in California and can pop in here between appointments as well as in the evening for a SHORT while. I will most likely be pretty wore out from my activities and tests etc.

Make an offer, if you care to, assuming the worst on anything I did not clear up here. Headed for the barn and now only hoping to recoup as much of my dollars commited to this fine little rifle as I can. It IS cute, and in nice condition sans the mods, which are admitedly a dirty rotten shame.

Talk to ya'll a little tomorrow, I hope.

Would like to see a better pic of the floorplate scratch and buggered up front action screw.

The only other unknown is that bolt, as indicated by others the solid bolt was only available in 52 they went to a hollow bolt in handle in 53. So if that is a 1960 featherweight it has the wrong bolt in it, cause it should have a hollow bolt handle. I hope like heck you didn't give a whole lot for it cause you might have got screwed on this one.

I understand you have to let everyone know about your health issues, but wouldn't it have been a whole lot easier and less time consuming to just answer the questions guys have asked? Like the first few digits of the serial number? "1960 or so", WTF does that mean? Find "Bolt Action Rifles" and "Model 70" here and punch in the number:

http://oldguns.net/sn_php/winmods.htm

Does the bolt have a matching serial number? Actual length of pull (not a guess)?

Priceless

Nice guy! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You must've forgot about selling me a "collector grade rifle" with bedding compound smeared on the bluing. How many others have you screwed? And you have the balls to hang around here needling people.

What a goat rope.. Good thing some poor sap didn't buy it at the original listing or they would be s.o.l. with all sales "final".

Hard to be that guy (health issues mentioned), but seen this same old song and dance many a time and agree it's not too hard to just state the facts like serial number, etc. yep, goat rope is appropriate.

Like to sell. As new. No idea wtf it is or if all original or not. How does $1350 shipped sound? All sales final, no returns........

Mark, I don't know you and am not trying to be rude. I'm not the "piling on" type. Just trying to make a point. I truly hope you take something of this experience as to save yourself future headaches........

Bingo!!...He still didn't give the first 3 digits of the serial # either did he??? OAL of the rifle will tell us more since I agree, the LOP measurement isn't as accurate. Mark says the LOP measured "13.5" inches, so that is in the ball park of an uncut 1960 stock that sported the composite butt plate. However, right now I'd be more concerned about the wrong bolt and whether that is a "pieced together" rifle he has..It's a nice looking rifle, but some things stand out like a sore thumb..

I haven't dog piled on any of these Safariman threads but damn dude.......you really need to step back from the classifieds for a while and rethink what the he'll you are doing here. The issues with the items you sell and the issues with the transactions after you sell stuff is like a broken record. And please stop telling everyone about your health issues, it's pretty clear that the sympathy factor has long since worn out.

I have been looking for a featherwieght and was seriously thinking on this one I did know enough about them that the recoil was not factory. But the other things I didn't know so I'm glad I held off.

79S, I wonder if the "original owner" has the correct bolt in his safe. Bolts do get mixed up sometimes. The bolt is definitely not period correct if that is a "1960" ish rifle as stated by the op. Even the std wt rifles had the .275" hole drilled in the bolt knob after around 1956. We really need a partial serial # (first 3 digits) to verify. Why haven't we gotten that info yet???? The flat bolt sleeve and solid bolt knob clearly shows that. If I were the OP, I'd be on the phone with the "original owner" and asking if he has a std wt rifle in his collection with a fwt bolt in it!! The recoil pad is definitely unoriginal to the rifle, as the original LOP would be 13 1/2-13 5/8".

The OP found time to make four posts over the last couple hours in other threads, but still no serial number.

Really, it was sold as "collectors grade"? And why don't you tell the audience exactly how much time had gone by before you started your whining; better than a year after you received the rifle, so it must've been a huge issue, right?

Where is MissouriEd?

It's a dead skunk...
in the middle......
dead skunk in the middle of the road...............

Are the bipods included????

I considered buying this rifle also as a shooter, still would, it's a nice looking gun but just can't bring myself to trust the seller after all the recent events and one other thing still bothers me is that there are some on this site who apparently think they are above the rest in as much as calling other folks classified hawks, WTF is wrong with looking and buying from this forum, a member is a member, what he does on this site or how much time he spends on it is no one else's business. We're all equal here or at least I thought we were and we seemed to treat each other with respect. I like it here because of that. I will still continue to buy whatever interest me and pre 64 model 70's are at the top of that list, guess I must be one of those "classified hawks" that this guy seems to look down on and for that reason would hate to give him a dime of my money, just my 2 cents worth

In my opinion, the OP is one of the most hawkish of classy fied hawks.
Or at least was til a while back.

Had to dig a ways back to find this one (2006), but here it is:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...Re_Sako_L461_Vixen_Deluxe_222#Post848301

Tell you what Bill, box it up and tell me where to send your refund and I'll have it in the mail tomorrow. Never should've sold that rifle in the first place.

Bumpola.

Good post.

He sends it back, I'll take it!

value has probably doubled since 2006

You know me, screwing people by selling them Sako Deluxe .222's for $975.00 shipped. Apparently a ding in the stock and scratch on the floor plate are listed in the Blue Book of Gun Values as "collectors grade".

I can't wait to get that rifle back.

If Bill N is a man of good character he should send that rifle back to you. I'm curious to see if he does..

I'll take it, that's a very rare flintlock pistol pizza cutter.

Gunner

Awaiting response to my PM asking where to send the refund and FFL. Can't wait to get that rifle back.

???

Same rifle?

+1

Bet he don't send it back !

Gotta be a Beretta. Being Italian and all, nobody else would need a pizza cutter...

Looks like a hemorrhoid trimmer to me..

The flint for cauterizing when the cutting is done?

Thank God for modern medicine.

The direction threads can go at times can be most humorous and entertaining.

This is way beyond daytime soap, that it isn't even funny...

Subscribed

+2; good post.

Here on the 'fire, it is all about reputation and honesty.

If there have been any misunderstandings in the past, it is all the more reason with classified ads to give concise descriptions and sharp pictures, along with prompt and clear answers to all questions. If you don't, regardless of your intent it appears that you are being, at best, evasive.

While obviously anyone can buy and sell here, I personally am a bit more leery of sellers who clearly churn equipment for a profit.

I don't mind someone turning a little profit, but dammit, be honest with us!!! When we ask for a LOP, give it to us. When we ask for a serial # for confirmation, give it to us!!!! When we ask for better pics, you know what this is leading to. Don't beat around the fn bush. That's what I have a problem with!!!

At the very least, leave the outright lies and pure made-up BS out of the ads.

I'm sorry pal, I know I bs too much...

bsa--I meant the ad, here. Your bs(a) is just fine.

I doubt anyone will ever see a legitimate sn.If you do see one it will be made up to match the original description,after the rifle is sold to an outside party.

VERY good point about laying off of all this stuff while I am so busy and until I can provide more details and maybe some beeter pictures.

Pulling this one off of the market here, might be stuch with it, not a bad thing entirely. could become a quite nifty 22/243ai OR 22/6MMai for my grandkids to use and hunt with.

This just keeps getting better! I truly hope you're not stuck with it, since you "spent money you didn't have to get them " and " need to sell them quick like". Good Lord man.

The drama continues. safariman, why do you continue digging a deeper hole? I know you are a nice guy but you need better marketing.

Lots of posts lately but nothing from the OP. ????

Look back 2 or 3 posts. I believe he pulled the rifle, it's no longer go sale.

Unfortunately, I didn�t notice the issue when I picked up the rifle. Whoever did the bedding did a pretty good job of cleaning it up but enough got on the barrel and action that it left a light haze on the bluing and there was a little stain on the stock at the front of the action. To be honest it was extremely hard to see unless you looked at it in direct light.

I put the gun in my safe and forgot about it for a while until I bought a Riihimaki Deluxe and decided to sell the Vixen. The guy who bought the Vixen from me noticed the compound and returned the gun to me. I contacted GW at that point and was told that too much time had gone by since the sale. I ended up selling the rifle at a loss.

Maybe it was an honest mistake but I didn�t appreciate the tone of the response. Now I notice that GW is part of the judge and jury team for the classified section � seems a little ironic to me.

That judge and jury team you mock is trying to police our own campfire classifieds to expose the serial liars and cheaters so it will be a safe place to shop.

Safariman

Just rewrite the Ad. Put pre-64 Model 70 Winchester FWT .308, AS IS, and your price.

Wow,
now the story is....

You never saw a problem with the gun after receiving it.
You later sold it.
Still no problem.
Someone else gets the gun (wondering here who was calling it collector grade now).
"Someone else" says they have an issue.....
Maybe "someone else" botched the bedding job and now sees a way "out", after ruining the "collector grade".
In this example A YEAR LATER, after A YEAR of you being happy,
and I find out you sold the gun anyway, I would not be interested in refunding your money either.

I think < 1 year return policy is ample. Your time ran out Bill.

Really not busting your balls, just chalk it up as a lesson learned. Take the rifle outside in daylight and look it over good. No need to call out the seller on a 2006 transaction. That rifle was probably still worth what you paid for it.

From this thread I have:

Learned some interesting details about Pre-64 fwt.

Found one member I would never buy from.

Found one member I would never sell to.

It's not much for the time in reading, but at least I have a little to show!

Let's not forget, it was more than a YEAR later when you contacted me. And if you sold it for $825.00 ($150.00 loss) as you indicate in your PM, you're a bigger moron than I originally thought.

I had to refund shipping both ways and pay another transfer fee. That was more than half of the total. And I never asked for or expected a refund after that length of time. I contacted you because I wanted to find out if you knew anything about it and frankly your response was kind of telling. You�re no better than these people you�re always calling out here. GFY hypocrite!

Ok, I'll GFM, Moron.

I know. Gives me a very bad feeling. And I'm not sure why I keep coming back to see what the next development is?? I guess it's kinda' like slowing down to check out a car accident�.hoping you can see some blood. I hate that side of me.

I have bought a fair amount of "stuff" on here and I really want to start a call out thread because they all seem to turn out so well for the call outer and generate lots of views for Rick.
Problem is, I've never had a bobble....dammit!

I'll keep trying though.



(sarcasm font inserted for the non-Mensa members)

If anyone is dying for an original
http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/micky_blue_8085/slideshow/Guns/M70%20308

shoot me a pm

What is so bad he bought two pre 64 and looks like he got burned real bad on them. I feel for the guy to a certain extent. He is out spending money he probably shouldn't be spending. I suspect he gave a lot more for that featherweight than what it is worth. The transition pre-64 if it is true that its a 1946 made one and one fella pointed it out the rear bridge was not drilled and tapped for scope mounts in 1946 that didn't come along until 1948 that's what one of the posters said. If that's the case I was always told $250 dollars a hole on the pre-64 so take $500 off the transition pre-64. He saw pre-64's possible quick turnaround and make a few bucks off the deal. In the end it looks like he got a featherweight with the wrong bolt in it, and transition pre-64 with two extra holes in it. Instead of making $2500 plus off the guns he might be lucky to get $1600-$1750 for the pair. He probably gave 2 grand for the both of them.

Holy smokes that is a nice one!

WOW! Now that's what I'm talking about.

Sending PM.

donsm70

Yes it is.

If he actually bought them..... and/or described them from the other sellers description, I wonder if he will check into the other sellers return policy......

I'd suggest he waits at least a year before contacting the seller...

Yeah, there was something kinda funny about him not being able to provide serial numbers. Almost like the rifles weren't in his possession.

That's right, it even has a built in non-removable bi-pod.

Gunner

While I have no dog in the fight, I have learned that any time you near the "couped up" tax time season and mix it with the mystery of classic winchester lore.....you can get a lot more views on a classifieds post than one expressing the loss of a wife, the first hunt with a child or a "look at me, I've lost 80 lbs today" post. You will fall short of a 1970's classic car revival thread though. As ugly as the thread got, he did manage to get nearly 10k views on a less than grand deal. ..m that is impressive in its own right.

Mark has been dealing guns quite a while so I doubt that he got suckered on either of them. He knows what he is doing.

If anybody would actually READ what he's been saying, they would know that he does not have access to the rifles at present as he's in CA at medical appointments while the rifles are at home in WA. It's not difficult to understand why he can't provide serial numbers/LOP, etc.

Uh, Dude...he was home yesterday morning and posting on the fire. Just not here in this thread, where he could open an eye, look at the number and type the first three on his reply.
Having read the thread, I ciphered he left his home yesterday afternoon.

That's the scary part, Bro.

What happened to the damn Ruger Charger?

This makes me wonder where Bricktop is?

That is what happens when you are trying to make money at something and you appear to know just enough to be dangerous, (especially to your self.)

Or are willing to bend over your "friends" for your benefit.

The classifieds here were not designed as a "for profit" scenerio, but as a place to sell a gun or two when you get bored with one boomstick, or have your eye on another.

I just picked up a Ruger No. 1 from a member here on the fire.

Beautiful rifle, in great condition, with great set of rings, well packaged, provided me with load data he had used with this rifle, selling it because he felt like it, not because his mortgage was late!!

Lesson to be learned by all. Some here are all about the profit, not about the fun of it.

If you want to pad your bank account, move your schiet to GunBroker and pay your fees.

JMO,

Mitch

No dog in this fight, but could never imagine this much nastiness over a matched pair of Woodwards. Just sayin. Wow.

I believe this is called szchitting where you eat/sleep.

Might be an accurate assessment too. Just watching.

According to the OP, he was home Saturday night through Sunday morning. Took the time to tell us all about his ailments, and make posts on other threads, but still no serial number.

I understand why no serial numbers are forth coming.
All it could possibly lead to is more criticism.

You really need to change your sig. I'm in west TX and every time I see that I'm left wanting!

Those are some nice Tall Pines

Don't be fooled. He knows exactly what he is doing. He knows what to post and what to not post, otherwise all questions would have answered long ago.

This ain't Safariman's first rodeo. He knows his guns. Don't believe the dumbass part he loves to play in these situations.

Ever eat a pine tree?

Sorry.

Memories....

Edited to add, that was posted on the 24th.

All side issues and agendas aside, this was bound to happen.
The Winchester Model 70 pre'64 market has become a cottage industry because it is so specialized. If anyone has spent anytime in the Rule book, you know that the 27 year manufacturing
history is complicated. Why people were clamoring for the serial number is that it represents the "dob" for the rifle. That month and date represent an era in the manufacturing history that indicates what the rifle should "look like". There probably is no other rifle out there where the serial number means so much!

The cottage industry I spoke of means that there are people who not only specialize in this Model as a legitimate seller, but those who alter rifles to put them in another era of higher value. Not all rifles can be altered, but certain variants can be tweaked into something else and something many times their original value. Because there is money to be made, there will be those willing to counterfeit.
This does not mean to impugn the integrity of this seller!

It is not all that uncommon that someone trying to sell a rifle, is actually peddling a counterfeit variation and truly doesn't know it! Neither he or the eventual buyer realizes they have an altered Model 70. Some of these guys can be really talented.

The bottom line is that Model 70 collectors will always scrutinize a sale with a suspicious eye and a skeptical attitude. That trait came out here and spooked the seller who could have easily settled any concern with two bits of information. Good luck to all of us.

Approaching 11K views, can't understand why those three little words have not been typed yet.

Good post Bigwhoop, but Mark has brought most of this on himself in the past few months. Every time he "speaks", he just digs the hole a little deeper.

He got me several months back with a .270 Weatherby that wasn't worth nearly what he claimed. I know he had my trade "sold" before it ever got to him. Rather than piss and moan, I sent it off to a local auction and took my lumps. I would have been embarrassed to have my hunting buddies see me with the Weatherby.

IMHO, desperate people do desperate things.

donsm70

This place is starting to resemble a used car lot, just shortly after a huge flood.

Insurance sales, right?

What pisses me off is when someone is trying to sell something that they don't have yet. I had the same issue with ar33c9. That dude tried selling me a custom folder knife with a picture and description. After a few questions, he admitted he didn't have it yet, but trusted the guy sending it to him. GFY ar33c9.

ar33c9 is strictly on the classifieds. I don't care how many folks were happy dealing knives with him, but he tried to bullshit me until I started asking a few extra questions. He should have been up front first, or waited to sell the knife when he actually had the damn thing in hand.

Here is the ad:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...038/Re_John_Lloyd_Stag_Knife#Post8302038

John Lloyd Stag

There are some very minute scratches on the right side (have to turn the knife just right in the sun to see them) and a few spots of discoloration near the tip on the right side as well.

I tried to capture them with the camera, not sure they'll show up though.

Overall length is about 6 1/4" with a 2 7/8" blade (from tip to front of bolster)

Beautiful knife with a very affordable price. $195 shipped, Reduced $180 shipped paypal as goods or USPS Money order, first I'll take it.

I really got pissed when he said: I tried to capture them with the camera, not sure they'll show up though. He didn't even take the [bleep] picture!

I suspect safari sells a lot of stuff without having them in hand, and it's time to clean house of the bulshitters.

This quote by Don sums it up well.

Some people will f*ck there own Mother to make a buck.

just don't be f*cking my mama

That pretty much sums it up.

Man... schit show at best!

I had thoughts of listing a pretty nice pre-64 Fwt 243 here soon, but I'm a little scared now!

Does it include the factory bipod?

No need to be scared. Be upfront and forthright with a nice array of photos.If someone asks a question, answer the question.

How much??

I'm surprised that the subject of BATFE's definition of an "unlicensed dealer" has not come up in this thread or the Ruger Charger thread. IMO, there is not enough money to be made buying & selling guns to take that risk, especially if you are pissing people off in the process.

Richard,

Regretfully no on the bipod. Fortunately, it does have the factory compass in the buttstock though!

Jason... that's one of two questions I'm still wrestling with. The other one is if I should get rid of it!

I'm sure that was a rare (probably non-cataloged) option, and should increase the value at least $500. It'd be worth even more if it still had the factory picatinny rails...

No chit. No reason to be "scared" unless you are trying to hide something. There are plenty of guys here that know the ins and outs of the pre 64 model 70's, so that can actually be a blessing in disguise. It helps to keep everyone honest...

That's no problem, just update it with a garmin and you'll be in business.

Most here are just selling their personal firearms, perhaps to get something else that they just have to have. Others are what I call "flippers" perhaps in the business perhaps just addicted. I always look at these as suspect. Many times they are either over priced or not quite what was described, or both. I have enough trouble supporting my own addictions, I will not support someone else's.

Well, there are "flippers" and then there are those in the business of selling guns and who advertise as "like new" a gun that has obviously been modified and appears to have been assembled from various parts lots.

Personally I'm happy these conversations go on here - I know of a gun Mark sold to a good standing member here that was screwed up- needed a new mag box to function, and the buyer has been polite enough to keep quiet through all of this. I pride myself as do many others here of being stand up guys who will stand behind anything they sell and can afford to buy it back if need be. Makes the honest guys here look even better when this crap goes on.

Well said Killer, and I agree.

I see this in a lot of the items I sell here. Many come back up for sale at higher prices than I sold them for. Its all good I guess. It burns me a bit sometimes as I have been naive enough to believe that this site is here to avoid places like gunbroker and other rip off sites , but lately it seems to have changed more to a making money site , lots of good folks and info here , but the op in this thread seems to be running a suspect track record in the least.

Ladies and Gentlemen:

Caveat emptor ("Let the buyer beware." - Black's Law Dictionary, 1984, page 202) applies here:

http://insurance.oregon.gov/admin_actions/actions_2011/producer_2011/10-02-005.pdf

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

A "No Return" policy should be a HUGE red flag!!! In online sales you are buying based on the sellers word and his ability and willingness to capture decent photos which is NOTHING like having the gun in hand. Especially when dealing with Collectables and Relics!
I'd take back any gun I've ever sold on here because I sold them at a very fair price.

Wow! I guess where there's smoke.....

Well, that pretty well nails it in my mind....

Exactly. It really doesn't help when the seller skirts around basic questions, and constantly comes up with excuses. Terrible pictures aren't helping the cause, either.



Very interesting....

Yallie,
I can't help but notice how many of the sheep piling on
Safari (needs new tires) man are the same mindless sheep that supported him to the death back on about 04-20-13.
You had him pegged then, as did I.
Cisco

http://insurance.oregon.gov/admin_actions/actions_2011/producer_2011/10-02-005.pdf



Gulp.

Any of these sound familiar?

On 10/27/11, the director received from the party an e-mail reasserting the
party�s previous exceptions and urging the director to not revoke his expired license,
but merely allow his license to remain expired. The party argued that the party (1)
has not been transacting insurance in Oregon for some time, (2) is not licensed in
Oregon, (3) does not represent Bankers Life and Casualty Company, the insurer
that he represented in the course of engaging in the misconduct, (4) is planning to
move from Walla Walla Washington to Elko Nevada, and (5) has poor health which
may prevent him from working anywhere again.

Note to self: Never screw anyone over or piss someone off here at the Campfire.

I also had bad dealings with Mark, should have kept my 2K+ in my hands when he told me no return, giving him the benefit of the doubt, when he is looking at something and describing the condition over the phone, you would think he would mention the extensive rust and pitting on the barrels, but like everyone said
"buyer beware" Jim

Dam.. The list keeps growing.

Just curious as to why you gentlemen that have had bad, and misrepresented dealings with Mark didn't come out previously and make this known to the campfire community?

My guess is the ones that have tried ( earlier) dam near got hung by everyone that defended him.

Yea. Call-outs typically aren't well received here.

Because the "No Return" policy is a preemptive strike on your right to call out the dishonest seller.

I'd say his card is punched. Sometimes justice is a bit slow, but I'd say the sun is shining pretty brightly now.

Fosteology,
Read how YALIE was ripped on 04-20-13.
Like I said big flock of futzzin' sheep here.
No balls, just internet anonymous courage.
All for a goofball seller. That needs new tires.
Cisco

You are correct and I agree most are BS, but I also believe SM used this to his advantage.

Shazam!!!!!!

I shied away from dealing with mark when he tried selling me a 99 in 250-3000 with a paragraph of description and a $1500 price tag. When I asked for pics he produced 2 or 3 pics that were lousy and said he had been too sick to take more. Also, when someone continually preaches about the great things they do and how awesome they are, I tend to take notice and realize they are probably hiding something. I still think he was in cahoots with the 15 year old!

Here is a link... Read all responses.. or as many as you can stomach.

Would seem some members posting on that thread owe other members an apology.

After reading all this crap, I need a shower, a very hot shower.

im one of em', yallie is owed an apology from my end.

+1.

I just had to go and read 18 pages to see how big of an arse I would feel like....thankfully, I excersised my 5th on that thread.....that said, I have dealt with mark in person and he drove to meet me on a pistol deal. the deal went well, although he was late by an hour or two, I used some of the cash that i brought to make the deal to buy myself and my guest dinner. when he showed, i felt like a heel because I shied him on the price we agreed upon to buy my dinners.....we are talking $30 on a $750 deal. he was noticeably dissapointed.....but understood. we had some dialog about life and how his divorce was treating him...yada yada.

that was my one actual transaction with him. in the time since then.....and this was many moons ago, I have recieved many PM's from him asking about my own well being and offering an ear during my own divorce. we have spoke about hunting, kids and many life trials and mark has offered to help me out without payment....I can easily assume that I am not alone in that he has warmed up to some members here, I am not a wealthy man, especially at the time he nad I met, I was driving a wore out toyota at the time and had just come off a 12 hour shift welding and took on a 100 mile drive to meet him.....so I know money wasnt his motivation to be kind to me.........that said,

I am truly sad for those whom have been dog piled on here, I can see how easy it would be to defend someone who has treated them well. I actually feel very sorry for mark, this place has been that last little bit of his dream, where reality can be altered just a fuzz to fit better into ones tolerance. I believe that he has had a pretty charmed life that was revoked and sent him back to the realization that life is not certain and wealth earned overnight can be lost equally as quickly. I know the money I handed hime was to buy a new washer and dryer, hardly a romantic yarn about an african safari as I expected, just a humble answer.....and in the time since then, life has likely handed slightly less every day to the personaly wealth pit than it used to, age has taken some of the last bits of mobility and reality of being someones grandpa who lives on a low to mediocre income has been his own personal fight. I can see how, understand how and feel sympathy twards....but I cannot defend it.

Mark, you have earned respect from me in the past based on your actions. the evidence is mounting against you and if you cant come up with some compelling retort, may I suggest a sincere apology and lock yourself out of the classifieds untill you can get a grip on the fact that we are all men who value another mans word.....for in the end, we will only be remembered for the work we did and the word we kept.

good luck with life, it appears you have some repairs to make.
Greg

.......and I need spell check. wow that was gramatically disgusting.

I saw SACTOLLER post here, I dont know a thing about the guy other than, I posted up a bag of 7mmSAUM brass that was pretty tough to get at the time, I was asking fair yet inflated market value for it, but the ad requested that the check sent to me be made out to St. Lukes hospital. he bought the brass and the check was not made out to the hospital, it was made to me and it was for ALOT more than the asking price. I would go to bat for this guy based on his selfless actions.

Mark Doberinski is another who on their own dime elected to send me some bullets because I had asked about the performance of the said bullet. it amounted to basically 25 of every weight and diameter berger that mark owned. I would defend this guy to and eat my hat if I were wrong....all based on one simple selfless action.

I felt like this thread was headed right into the schitter, and I wanted to re introduce a thank you in hopes of seeing the humanity that the fire' was faomous for during my indoctrination.

Greg
A very good post on Mark's behalf, I can only hope that Mark will follow up on your request.

Tim

I am surprised the Ruger Charger fiasco did not end his selling days here on the Fire.....

I doubt even THIS will.

That's some funny [bleep]! Some guys are real slow learners. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it ain't a Christian!

What's bad all those guys piled on Yalie, I'm surprised he stuck around after that bashing he took.

I just wanted to know the sn and a better picture of that bolt. But he ran off said gun was not for sale any longer... I'm far from being mr money bags I wanted to know something's on this rifle. Before I committed but he left us all hanging when some questions were asked.

Yea, and another pile on thread for "The Chosen One"

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/7687084/1

I was a dirty rotten bastud for my perhaps overspoken response to lil Mark and his continuous pot stirring chit! Even received a PM from a gent in WA insisting that I owe 24hr members an apology for my 'rant'! When I refused he then told me I had mental issues and needed some soul searching and "anger management"! I wasn't overly polite on my response to that PM so he then told me I was immature and had temper tantrums like his 6yr old grandson. I said some things I probably shouldn't have but kinda torqued when someone who knew lil Mark as well as me was defending him for whatever reason. He then asked if I was in the area someday to "call him and he would teach me some manners"! Guess 'anger mangement' only goes one way? Well, I have had some arse kickings and cannot remember one I wanted a do over on so told him I surely wouldn't drive 1200 miles or whatever so he could 'have his way with me'!!! Always kinda questioned why someone would say "hey, drive across the country to my house and I will kick your arse". Guess that is the way tough guys do it on the net eh??

On his Charger fiasco he invited me in with his cheap shot about me showing up to call him a narcissist so I considered that an invitation that would please him?

I think I had/have him pretty well pegged in both instances, a thief and a liar! Personally wouldn't piss down his throat if his guts were on fire!

Felt Yallie damn sure didn't deserve how he was treated etc from the Marky Fan Boy Club!! Doubt though that many will apologize cause it just tain't cool, specially on 'the net'!!

Don't be a douche defending someone you have never met or had a deal or two with on the net. I have to know someone in person for a considerable length of time before I will jeopardize my honor, integrity and word!! Kinda like cosigning for a coworker after a couple months.

Anyone can "say they are a Christian"! However, it is when you actually 'act' like one that really matters! Me thinks there is some fibbing going on with a certain individual that frequents here and throws it in others face. He stated a "church member" was driving him to CA? Wonder if he took his laptop and let that fella read these threads concerning his behavior on the way down?? NOT

Read some of that Safariman experience thread and you will see why.
Call outs get reamed.
Sometimes it's justified.......this one, well........

Guys who lead off with the whole "I'm a God fearing Christian" bit are a lot like guys who tell you they were Navy Seals........they usually aren't, and they usually have an agenda.

Im going to call out 'slave some day.

I'm going to call out myself. I'm an assshole...don't deal with me.

Read a couple linked "pile on" threads. WoW...

Lot of folks on that 71 thread who were 180 degrees wrong. Including a lot of high post count guys. Wonder how crow tastes?

Wonder how many people got hosed on insurance and annuities to pay for safaris back in the day. At least the judge didn't buy his line of crap.

Bring it Jose.....
I will take you down.......to Chinatown.





P.S. It's pretty wild down there.....we'll have fun.

+1.

i went back and read Yalie's original thread. he got DESTROYED
for his actions. seems like he was right, after all.

seems he might be due more than a few apologies.

ked

funny how dogpiles work isn't it. Real easy to jump on board and slam somebody when that's what all the cool kids are doing. Don't hold your breath on those apologies.

It very well might be that when Yalie had issues Safariman it was the beginning of the end. Prior to that he might have been the stand up guy everyone thought.Not condoning what he has gone on but circumstance might have brought on these changes. They say desperate people do desperate things.

I hate to say it but its true. He sat at the top of a hill in TN yesterday, put out a camo stop sign and then filmed people crash their cars for an hour while posting to Facebook. The videos were clearer than Mark's Winchester pics. What a prick!

Got a link?

Yes Sir,
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...red_today_so_I_m_filming_car#Post8521287

HaHaHa! I thought you were kidding about taping people sliding.

Ladies and Gentlemen:

I appreciate your responses, but I did not post that link to address my stopped check last year.

I posted the link, so that anyone who does business in the future with this guy has his or her eyes wide open.

My next question is: Where's the FFL? If you are going to purchase and then immediately re-sell rifles from someone else's estate, then don't you need an FFL?

"Next up is a Model 70 FWT 308. According to the original owner, this recoil pad came on the gun new. Blue Book of gun values bears this out as a true factory option. BOTH of these guns are from a single one owner local farm estate, whomever buys these will be exactly the SECOND owner of each, period (not counting me as a very short term, as in a couple of days only, middleman). Bolt face and bluing on the extractor are just absolutely perfect and shiny like showroom new. Same on the wood. Never re finished, not needed! Price for this jewel is only $1295 shipped and insured! Good time to add that I CAN consider some kind of a lightweight 44 Magnum or Special as well as a PMR30:" - Mark Claiborne from Winchester Collector's forum.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

We should take slg' and his camera.

That would be some Good Schit. I'm down.

Bumpola

What's up BGG?

Not much. Cold as a witch's teat here today. Got some fresh snow.

Love the avatar BTW. Story?

It's just my two dogs.
Yellow is gone.
Chocolate feeble.
Me? Who knows...

Just playing around with my avatar.

Killed him 5 years ago(?)

He could have been B&C if he was a lot bigger.

You need a black one to complete the ensemble.

Metaphor much?

I've had a couple.
They die too.
Dogs dying sucks.

Indeed. Still better than cats.

Don't go menstra on us.

Put my wifes boxer down Monday. My old mut is following her closely.

Old Ojos?

Don't want to sidetrack the thread........
But I would agree.

Sidecar Slave!

Hello Gruff and SLiM.

Still miss Dahveed...

Live strong, Bone Long, boys.
No guarantees.

Interesting read from another buyer

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/8533393/1

No sch*t. . . . . . .go back and read this entire thread.

Hint!

Some sellers just hate informed/knowledged buyers.

Then, some sellers quickly change their terms to 'no returns, all sales final'.