John, I am spending the morning doing some reading and have been catching up on some of these threads. In the above anecdotes, and I am sure on countless other occasions, you have encountered shooters taking a torturous path to getting their guns sighted in. You are ever the polite professor here on the forum, often taking time to share your knowledge and experience and correcting errant thinking. In the above instances, you just let the shooters go on doing their thing rather than nurturing them along. Is that because your experience tells you that it is hopeless to try to do anything about it?