Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by Tyrone
Originally Posted by VarmintGuy
I have been seeing of late (last 2 years) a bumper sticker that reads "BORN OK THE FIRST TIME"!
I "heard" that this is a refutation of Christianity and the owners of those bumper stickers are atheist's.
Not everyone is "born again" in the sense that most of us think of. If you read any lives of saints you'll find a large number of them were raised in devotion and never had a need to experience conversion.
Were they not born into a sinful nature, as Christian theology teaches that we ‘all’ are...? Were these “saints” exceptions to that...?
Serious questions.
Everyone sins at one time or another. But it is a matter of degree. Some people REALLY ARE better than others. But that's getting off in the weeds from the real issue.

What is popularly defined as being "born again" is really just the realization that Jesus is The Way, The Truth and The Life and the acceptance of that reality. When this reality hits, it can't help but be accompanied by repentance. There are people who never go through that. They were baptized and raised in faith and they, seemingly naturally, are repentant and faithful from the earliest of ages. From the time they were toddlers even.

That is why you don't hear the Catholic Church speak about being "born again" in the same sense a Baptist would. That's not to say there isn't a tremendous outpouring of grace when someone "comes to Jesus". The more informed can correct me if I'm wrong about this, but the Catholic Church associates that outpouring of grace more with the act, the sacrament of confession that is a part of that in the Catholic tradition. For instance, St. Dismas, the repentant thief, received such an outpouring of grace when he confessed his sins to Jesus on the cross that he went to Heaven that day. (He also received a "baptism of desire" with that act. Specifically "Jesus remember me when you come into your kingdom.")

I believe that what enabled so many of the saints to live lives of holiness from the earliest times of childhood is the fact that they were baptized. The sacrament of baptism confers the spirit and therefore is "a baptism of water and spirit". Baptism is the Catholic "born again". Remember the definition of a sacrament - "An outward sign of an inward reality, instituted by Christ to give grace". Grace is the reception of The Spirit.

I'll avoid all the intricacies of what happens when someone decides to come to Jesus, but gets killed in an accident before they make it to confession or even baptism. We all know it's going to be OK for that person. smile

And let's not confuse this with the Pentecostal baptism of spirit. CMIIW on this, it is generally something that happens after one has been "born again" although they *can* happen at the same time.

Is that rambling enough for you? laugh Sometimes it's tough straining those gnats. laugh


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