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After being around here for a while one takes note of people who are in favor of running turrets on big game rigs. I've spoken with SU and Scenar about it a fair bit and have a fair understanding of what they've done with them.

But, what I would like to hear from the rest of the folk who use them is about their real life experiences with turrets on big game at longish range.

For the sake of setting a range where long range begins I'm only really interested in hearing about kills on big game past 400 yds.

So, if you've personally taken big game past 400 yds using turrets please tells us about it. Theres lots of promoters of the concept so I would imagine that we'll have plenty of good stories to read about the animals they've taken with them etc.

Side note, I picked 400 yds as a starting point cause by my way of thinking it's incredibly easy to take game at least to 400 with most cals without turrets.

So tell us about it boys/galz

Thx

Dober

(ciao, I'm heading out for bruins)


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I run them on all my rifles, big and small. There is nothing like turrets on a fast twist .22-250 shooting 75 grain pills at 3,100 fps. I can't express how fun it is on prairie dogs out to 1,000 yards. Range, click, hit the switch, wait for spotter to confirm hit ;o).

I have all my turrets marked in 100 yard increments, so there is no counting clicks. Range, twist to appropriate mark, hit the switch, punch tag. All my scopes are Leupold 3x9's or 3.5x10's. They are nothing fancy, just no nonsense work horses. I have taken out numerous new hunters or hunters with no turret/long range hunting experience. I always have them practice until they have excellent trigger control. If you can squeeze the trigger, you can shoot long range with the right equipment.

I found a nice buck for the wife a couple of years ago. I ranged him at 556 yards. She was shooting a semi custom 7mm-08 with 120 grain Hornady HP bullets coming out at just over 3,000 fps. I dialed in 550 yard, told her to put the cross hairs on the front shoulder and squeeze. Bang....flop. She has never shot the far and IS NOT a shooter. She is a natural good shot, like most women are. She has done this the last few years with the same results. She just doesn't miss. I took both nephews out (mid 20's in age) and found them bucks at 450 and 400 yards. Same thing, dialed in 400 and 450 yards respectively. One shot each with the same 7mm-08, bang flops on both bucks. I can't even count the times I have done this out to 600 yards on antelope and deer. I seldom get shots under 400 yards in the areas I hunt. Everything is cross canyon shooting in very rugged country. I can't imagine hunting without turrets. I love the turrets.

All my buddies and nephews now have turrets on their scopes. They won't leave home without them either. Flinch


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If you can squeeze the trigger, you can shoot long range with the right equipment.


I'd need an experienced person to make the wind call for me.

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Flinch--good to hear from you, hope all is well your way.

What are your thoughts on the new CDS system?

Thx
Dober


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I cannot say anything negative about them. I do understand peoples concerns about using turrets, but IME if you get the concept behind them and have the slightest idea on how trajectory works they make your life a lot easier.

I started using them on hunting rifles about 6 years ago but had used them for plinking and such for quite a while before that. My first concern when starting to use them was much like anyone else will the turrets spin on accident, repeatability of adjustments, and so on. When those were finally put to rest and dialing in became second nature I started putting them on my hunting rifles, and none of the problems I made up in my head ever came to be.

Real life experience has been 5 deer beyond 400 yards three of them were around the 430-450 mark 1 was 485 and the one this year was 546. I put down the stick and string and picked up a rifle this year for elk to hunt with my younger brother who had never got an elk. I got him on an elk and he killed his first bull, which was all I really wanted to happen. Two days later I shot an bull at 1031 yards. All of these kills were 1 shot kills except the deer at 546 and the elk at 1031, both would have been had I let them be but, I shoot until they are out of sight or on the ground (personal preference). The deer had two bullets in through the lungs and the elk had 4.

I always try to close the gap as much as possible but situations and terrain and brush out here really limit the ability to spot and stalk. Most of the shot opportunities are cross canyon in reprod hemlock and doug fir, you can try and get closer if you want to but you might as well just call it exercise. Since I started using turrets I have been able to take better quality deer instead of settling for what ever I can find just to fill the freezer. Now the freezer is full and I can be picky if I am so inclined. I am sold on them and will likely use them until I do not have the ability to any more (I die).








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Hey Dober, a while back on here a fella started a thread on here called "Spinnin and Grinnin" he was shooting a plain ole almost forgotten .270 win (like the one I use every season). He did lots of load development and the works.

He brought home some "Longrange Venison". Its a good read.....

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The point that is oft times missed is using them so one can be dead nuts on at say 75 or 100 yards to thread a needle up close and then spinning for a bit further out.

3" high at 100 ain't something I want to screw with when throwing one into the brain pan of a critter going away.

Point being, nothing beats having the bullet go where the crosshairs are planted.


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Mark,

First off good point Steelhead. I did exactly that with my elk rig. When I was going into heavily wooded north facing slopes I'd twist the turret for a zero at 100. Back out to more open terrain back to my original setting for shots out to 300 yds. That is how I caught the M1 had moved. (see Bob's post on "I ran turrets")

Last year my heavy 7 rem mag was used by one friend on the opener for coues. We all sit and glass the opposite side of a canyon. Shots are 300-600 yds. Don got his "eater" at 480. Bi-pod, rear bean bag made by Jamison, target turrets on a 8.5-25 x 50 LR. Shot was 480 yds.

Later that same week Walt and I had been trying for a certain buck for him. The darn buck was never within Walt's comfort distance with his rifle. I suggested he use my 257 Roy with a turret. Walt's original rifle and this Roy are old tang safety M77 Rugers. The buck didn't show that day and Walt decided he really wanted to have some venison when that smaller buck showed at exactly 400 yds. I was right next to Walt and told him the MOA comeup. The buck did a Best of the West DRT. That 115 VLD stoned him, he never even twitched after he fell.

That is it so far Mark. I did elk hunt with one rifle last year that had a turret but the kill was around 80 yds and didn't require any adjusting.


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Only shot coyotes past 400. Agree with steely.

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Dober,
I shot an elk at 633 yards with a Leupy 2.5-8 and an M1 turret here in New Mexico a few years ago. Longest shot I have ever made on a big game animal. Just laid the rifle over my pack and popped him.

I am about to send a Leupy in to have a CDS turret installed in the next couple of weeks. I look forward to trying it out.

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I took a little bitty elk calf at a lasered 589 yards in 2008 running an M1 turret on a Leupold 3.5-10x. I was still breathing a bit heavy from the climb to get in position for a shot and saw my crosshairs rise up when the first shot broke. Held my breath for the second shot and it broke clean. Result was both shoulder bones perforated. It is nice to use a dead on hold for a difficult shot. I confirmed my clicks by actual shooting out to 600 yards and had increments marked on tape around the turret.


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after lots of range time with a ragged hole shooting recipe in my 338 rum, i ordered a custom turret from kenton industries.
10 minutes into colorado's elk season, we lasered 5 elk at 700 yards.
i picked out a big cow, dialed the numbered 7 on my leupold, held behind the shoulder and gently touch the trigger in the windless early morning hour.

the 3 guys who i hunt with had been watching the elk, and were shocked at the energy a 250 grain sierra gameking had on her.
staggered her back, and wobbled forward, taking a few steps, and started to roll down the hill.

2 years before i shot another cow on the same mountain side, but a different spot at 762 yards with a 300 rum and 150 tsx's.
i can tell you first hand a 150 will pass thru an elk at that distance and cause major damage to it's insides.
i can't remember what the clicks were, but somewhere around 60 comes to mind.
3600 plus fps out of the muzzle makes for .7 of a second to cover 762 yards.

now windy days are a different story. the elevation may be correct, but doping the wind is another story.
when in doubt aleays give a lil into the wind. an elk has a large kill area. a hit in the rear of the lungs is just as good as one in the front of the lungs if the estimate is not as much.
also a liver hit is a good one as well as hitting a shoulder.
figger on a typical elk there is about a 2 foot killing shot target area.

i just got back from running my 300 rum out to 800 yards this after noon.
trying 165 grain nosler solid bases at 3550 fps.
exbal is right on the money with the click value.


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Huntr-633 is one of my longer shots as well, muley doe, head shot with dotz and a 95 NBT out of my 6/06. A 95 NBT up the snout and out the back of the head tends to ruin there day...grin

As for close range shots, I've ran 3" high in the heavy Minnesota woods for close to 40 years and never had an issue. But....that aint what this thread is about. Perhaps we should start a thread on that kind of thing though.

Come on guyz, theres lots of proponents of the turrets on the Fire. Need to hear more about your shots on big game past 400 yds.

Steely, you're one of the biggest proponents of turrets here how about you and your long shots (past 400) on big game?

And other please chime in as I enjoy reading about them and it's snowing like a big dog here this morn...

Thx
Dober


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Mark, I use turrets but where I live not on big game.

And when I do hunt out west the majority of my hunting is archery....anyway this last year I was in AZ with my AR-15 (grim reaper) and was twisting turrets on jackrabbits.

Closest shot was 80 yds and longest was 729-749.....cant remember which, but I did miss the rabbit....by 10 inches. cry

My farthest kill was 580 and I averaged around 420.....anyway it wasnt big game but I was still twisting turrets.

This year if I dont get drawn for my Kaibab hunts I will buy a leftover Coues tag and hunt with Firstcoueswas80 with Carnivore and she wears turrets.

Also when I go to AZ in December I will be taking my 243 AI and it will also be wearing turrets.

I am a big proponent of them.


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Some of mine...

Bull Elk 855yrds 7.82 Warbird 6.5-20 Leupold 180 NAB
Bull Elk 825yrds 7.82 Warbird 6.5-20 Leupold 180 NAB
Bull Elk 504yrds 7.82 Warbird 4.5-14 Leupold 180 NPT

Buck Deer 476yrds 7mm STW 6-18 Nikon 162 AMAX
Buck Deer 490yrds 7.82 Warbird 4.5-14 Leupold 180 NAB
Buck Deer 502yrds 7.82 Warbird 6.5-20 Leupold 180 NAB

Black Bear 500yrds 7mm Rem Mag 4.5-14 Leupold 160 NAB

Some of my friends...(to the best of my recollection)

Bull Elk 840yrds 300 RUM 6-18 Leupold 200 NAB
Bull Elk 840yrds 300 RUM 6-18 Leupold 200 NAB
Bull Elk 815yrds 300 RUM 6-18 Leupold 200 NAB
Bull Elk 625yrds 300 RUM 6-18 Leupold 200 NAB
Bull Elk 625yrds 300 RUM 6-18 Leupold 200 NAB

Buck Deer 906yrds 270 WSM 6-18 Nikon 140 NAB

Black Bear 1032yrds 300 RUM 6-18 Leupold 200 NAB


These are just the ones that I can remember the majority of the details. But there have been probably another 10 or 12 animals taken using turrets.


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My good friend Alan with a good bull he killed in the Missouri Breaks with my GAP built Surgeon .308 at 447 meters(488 yards). We watched this bull bed down at dawn after a full moon night and waited for over 4 hours for him to stand up. When he did, Alan made good putting two 155gr. scenars through his ribcage. The bull never took a step. The two shots were only 1" apart. I have a 3-12 S&B PMII mil/mil scope on this setup. No wind that morning. 2.2 mils of elevation. We had the right rifle along that day. It was the second week of the season and the elk had been pressured pretty hard. Really good DIY hunt on public land.


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Nice bull Pat, bet that was a long....4 hours..grin

Side note Pat, last night I took a bit of a walk for Billy the Bruin. Saw some elk, some muley's and lots of White...should be good tracking snow tonight if I can get away.

Dober


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Dober,
I love the turrets, and would not have at least one rifle without them, however, I just don't understand the need to sport them on every rifle if I am able to make consistent hits out to 600 yards via a LRD. If a person practices (and I have the added blessing of shooting at a range with steel at regular intervals out to 800 yards) then that will cover 99% of my big game hunting. So, again, I know the turret only people go crazy when someone spouts using LRD's but, for me, they also work.


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723 meters(790 yards) with my GAP built Surgeon .338 Lapua and 250gr. scenar. Scope is a 5-25 S&B PMII mil/mil. 3.8 mils elevation. 5mph wind, right to left. Held off .5 mils.

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My brother in law with his first elk taken with my Surgeon .308 at 505 meters, one shot using Hornady's 208gr. AMAX....DRT. You can see the entry on the left front shoulder...bullet broke both front shoulders and left a golfball sized exit.


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Huntr--I have a 3-10 Leo on an 06 at this time, haven't been able to run it past 430 yds yet but will when I get a bit more time. (time going to Grandsons All Stars b-ball and of course work..).

At this time to 400 yds and change I see it as a waste of time (4 me), but am thinking once I go beyond 400 it will work out well.

I know Pat and SU have used the turrets to take a lot of game past 400 and I always enjoying cussing and discussing things like this with them. But I am waiting to hear from others. It doesn't take long to see that there are some strong supporters of turrets on the Fire and I want to hear how many of them have actually used them to take game past 400 yds.

Hope all is well your way!

Dober


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16 1/2" antelope buck I shot with a friends GAP .338 Lapua at 870 meters....dead calm that morning.


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Originally Posted by orwapitihunter
Some of mine...

Bull Elk 855yrds 7.82 Warbird 6.5-20 Leupold 180 NAB
Bull Elk 825yrds 7.82 Warbird 6.5-20 Leupold 180 NAB
Bull Elk 504yrds 7.82 Warbird 4.5-14 Leupold 180 NPT

Buck Deer 476yrds 7mm STW 6-18 Nikon 162 AMAX
Buck Deer 490yrds 7.82 Warbird 4.5-14 Leupold 180 NAB
Buck Deer 502yrds 7.82 Warbird 6.5-20 Leupold 180 NAB

Black Bear 500yrds 7mm Rem Mag 4.5-14 Leupold 160 NAB

Some of my friends...(to the best of my recollection)

Bull Elk 840yrds 300 RUM 6-18 Leupold 200 NAB
Bull Elk 840yrds 300 RUM 6-18 Leupold 200 NAB
Bull Elk 815yrds 300 RUM 6-18 Leupold 200 NAB
Bull Elk 625yrds 300 RUM 6-18 Leupold 200 NAB
Bull Elk 625yrds 300 RUM 6-18 Leupold 200 NAB

Buck Deer 906yrds 270 WSM 6-18 Nikon 140 NAB

Black Bear 1032yrds 300 RUM 6-18 Leupold 200 NAB


These are just the ones that I can remember the majority of the details. But there have been probably another 10 or 12 animals taken using turrets.


OMG!!! shocked Good work wapitihunter.


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bought a [bleep] T3...


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Sorry, but I don't approve. But I realize the proponents don't care what I think either, so we are even. I notice no one has missed or willing to admit it. There are some that are going to get caught up with this method, feel over confident and have bad results. Bragging rights has a strong appeal.
To be proficient at 600-800 yards on paper and steel is great. But to do the same on live game is asking for a nightmare. I'm sure to be flamed so have at it.


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I've found them useful on light kicking rifles the kids have been using. My daughters 260 shooting 140 accubonds is extremely accurate yet starts to drop a bit a longer ranges. I wanted to use it last fall and by using the turrets which we practiced with out to 550 yards, we were able to easily center punch game animals in the 350 range. Again, lot of drop, but no worries and no need for magnum recoil to flatten it out.

I will second Steelie's comments and add that I find it a huge advantage to not have to have the scope on max power to utilize the turrets effectiveness.

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Originally Posted by bigwhoop
Sorry, but I don't approve. But I realize the proponents don't care what I think either, so we are even. I notice no one has missed or willing to admit it. There are some that are going to get caught up with this method, feel over confident and have bad results. Bragging rights has a strong appeal.
To be proficient at 600-800 yards on paper and steel is great. But to do the same on live game is asking for a nightmare. I'm sure to be flamed so have at it.


Nice real life tale there. What do you think of the guys who take running shots at whitetails zig zagging through the brush with their 760 pumps? Thats probably OK because its not long range...


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I didn't see where 760 pumps was the topic. I don't approve either.


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How about string and stick?


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What about it?


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I'm all for whatever legal method when one is willing to put in the necessary investment of time and resources.

Shooting with turrets at long distance is one method that is at the very top of that investment requirement.
It's not easy, by far. But then most challenging and rewarding things in life are not.

The older I get, the more I realize my own weaknesses and inability to do what I once thought I was good at (think vision limitations and steadiness). Confidence is the deciding factor for me when LD shooting even at KD. One day it might take the bow out of my hand too.
Such is life.

But for those who can get the results they seek, go forth and take the challenge!

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Sorry, but I don't approve.


No need to apologize, we don't need your approval.



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Originally Posted by bigwhoop
I didn't see where 760 pumps was the topic. I don't approve either.


So where is your real life tale? Have you seen this system applied in the field? Or is your opinion based on speculation?


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I would rather see someone that know how to shoot take game at 700 and 800yds than some that don't at 50 and 100 yds...


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My lone clicking meat buck.
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Spotted him at 580 bedded down on a ridge top, thought about taking the shot, but had cover to navigate closer. Made it to around 285 before I got to the point where I couldn't get any closer without losing sight of him. Clicked a whopping 2.2moa and made a perfect lung shot on him while he was still bedded down. I could have just held 6" high and hit the lungs on him while bedded down, but using the turrets was just way cooler.

Honestly, my lightbulb moment was 2 seasons ago when I spotted (and they spotted me) 3 very large bucks across a bowl up in alpine, 500 yards. Had I been proficient with turrets and LR shooting, I would have gotten one of them, as they stopped several times to look at me, as they worked their way up a slide and into and endless sea of cover, never to be seen again. I ended up settling on a smaller 4x4 buck that trip, but that sure got me thinking about the advantages of being able to take a longer shot with confidence, in the field. The big mountain bucks up here that have survived a few alpine seasons and their share of mountain hunters didn't get big by being stupid, that's for sure. I've spent a considerable amount of time practicing for that 4-500yd shot with my lwt mountain rifles. Who knows, but it could pay off here this fall. Lord knows I'll be up on the mountains looking.

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dvdegeorge-seems to me you're a turret guy, tell us about your taking of big game past 400?

Also, Steely good to see you back on here, you're one of the strongest proponents of turrets so tell us about the big game you've taken past 400 as well?

Thx for chiming in Calvin, sounds to me like you've not taken big game past 400 with turrets though right? One of these days bring the boyz down and we can get after lopes...grin

Thx guyz, enjoy reading about it.

Dober


(still need to have FVA and wildswalker chime in, they're strong supporters of turrets as well)


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Have a turret on only my .257 Roy and have shot a grand total of 1 doe with it laser ranged at 419 yds....where I live and do most of my hunting it's slug gun only so not many stories to tell, when I hunt in the souther tier of NY,Pa and out of state I get to hunt with my rifles,Last hunt in TX only called for a 130yd shot so no spinning was needed.....a sample of only 1 so I didn't chime in


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Mark,

What's with the 400yd requirement? I'm going to go out on a limb and say that 400 yards might not be very far in Mt on flatish ground, but in the mountains, 400yds can be an hour hike away. And, if you misjudge a hold over, it could be another long hike to get to that animal that ran 100 + yards down the wrong side of the mountain. I say a turret is beneficial whenever a precision shot is required. Whether it be at 250yds or 600 yards, depending on what you decided is a good zero for your hunting. When I look at game shot in Montana in most of the dead animal pictures, I see wide open areas with short grass. I'm sure hold over at 400 is easy when they are standing around in a field giving nice broadside shots, but that's not a reality for the places some of us hunt.

I'll ask you.. If you put two good shooters side by side, one with turrets and one holding over, which one do you think would be able to consistently be able to make more perfect shots at 400 yards?

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the .22-250AI 1:8 twist I have arriving in a week or two will garner a scope with a turret also..


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Thx Dvdegeorge-I appreciate you chiming in. And that AI will be tons of fun, let us know if you need any help breaking it in..grin

Dober

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The thing that always got me with holdover is that I never knew how much to hold over, at different ranges. If I know I have 12" of hold over at 400 yds, how far do I hold over at 372 yards? 11"? How about 421 yards? 13"? Now, given I really am an imperfect guy, I'd venture when I pulled the trigger, I could actually be holding over anywhere in the range of 8-16", when looking at a deer at 400 yards. Where is that going to send the bullet?

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Calvin- I started @ 400 cause for me it's incredibly easy to hit big game to 400 using the old hold over method. And I had to start somewhere and being it's a thread I started I started with a # that made sense to me.

Past 400 yds I can see where dotz, turrets will help out. 400 yds and less IME I can day in and day out get it done without either.

There's a group of turret twisters on here that are staunch supporters of the concept. I know some of them (SU and Scenar) and I know what they've done past 400. So, I asked the question as I want to see how many people aside from the guyz I mentioned have actually used turrets to kill game past 400.

Now if someone wishes to use turrets, hold over or dotz I don't really care. But I am curious by nature and so that's why I asked the question.

People can chime in if they want and or don't if they don't want, matters lil to me. But I'd like to see the strong supporters of turrets chime in and tell us about their experiences.

As for the country in Mt, some of it's open, some of it's tough to get closer, some of it's very thick, some of it's steep and deep as well. And I'm sure it's the same as anywhere else, sometimes the critters give us the time to wait for a good broadside and sometimes they don't. Sometimes they give us time to LRF them and sometimes they don't.

As to your last question, if you take a good shooter with hold over and one with turrets on big game @ 400 yds I'd say that both will get the critters on the ground just fine as long as they're both practiced with their equipment. And, I'd say that the hold over guy will generally get it done quicker and some times time is of the essessence. As long as either gets their shot off I'm confident that the end result will be the same. A dead critter and a freezer full of food.

But, that's not why I started this thread, I started it to hear about real life experience at killing game past 400 yds with turrets.

Dober

(side note, bring Anthony done here one of these years and we'll let him loose on lopes, he'll love it)


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Dober, I think some of us aren't bothered by holdover(dots or not) because that's how we grew up shooting at 50 through +400 yards(calm wind). I can think of a few times where the reticle was a foot over hair and the critter died. Also a few times there was a miss which is why lung shots were the norm, miss low and you won't hit a leg.
These days with lasers and dots and handloads it almost seems like cheating. Also with practice(wind included) a guy learns his limitations as well as what he and the rifle are capable of at a given range.

I would like to save up and get a good scope with turrets but for now am pretty happy with dots(thanks to you) out to 450-500 max.

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I'd love to see a side by side contest between 2 shooters. One hold over, and one turret twister. Between 3-400 yards, with paper plate sized targets, at random ranges (like 324, 345, 371, 395) It would be interesting to see which method produced the most precise hits at those ranges. Perhaps if you and Scenar shooter have time to kill? It would also be interesting to see what the actual time difference was between the hold over guy and the turret twister.

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Calvin, I've been setting my targets up at odd ranges just to see how close I can come with the dots. Out to 450 using 6 and 10x scopes it's usually pretty easy to hit within 3 or 4" of the target center, wind of course is trickier.

In a week or two I plan on setting up steel and approaching the targets from different angles and moving the gongs around to keep things interesting. Trying to get practice as close to hunting type shots as possible, should be alot of fun.

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Originally Posted by SamOlson
Calvin, I always set my targets up at odd ranges just to see how close I can come with the dots. Out to 450 using 6 and 10x scopes it's usually pretty easy to hit within 3 or 4" of the target center, wind of course is trickier.

In a week or two I plan on setting up steel and approaching the targets from different angles and moving the gongs around to keep things interesting. Trying to get practice as close to hunting type shots as possible, should be alot of fun.


I'm curious which method is more precise, at the ranges that most of the hunting community considers "long". (3-400 yards). We all spend a ridiculous amount of time and money getting our rifles to shoot sub moa, I'd think that the masses would be interested in the most precise way to shoot at game.

Perhaps Mule Deer could write an article on the contest?

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I am enjoying the thread because many of the kills are beyond my skill and comfort zones.

So what size five shot group can you guys shoot from a good rest at 600 or 800 yards?

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Would think with some practice you can shrink those groups some wink


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scenar,
My applause, I have 3 rifles that will do MOA to 300 yds but only one @ 400. Of course the guy behind the trigger and/or doing the loads have a lot to do with it.
But I have been pondering sending a 300 WSM to GAP, maybe after the economic collapse eases up I will go for it.

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Pat, that is good shooting!

Your 600/700 meter groups are as good as my sporters will do at 400 meters. We'll have to get together and do some shooting this spring/summer.

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I am a die hard knob twister...that said, I have missed two animals because of failure to return to zero user errors.

I prefer to use a MOA reticule in conjunction with MOA dials for speed. I often dial part of the elevation in and hold the rest.


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Did you see me post about shooting big game past 400 yards yet with turrets Mark? Thinking there might be a reason.

There are other benefits besides shooting big game past 400 yards, but considering you can't get you head wrapped around doing away with hogs this might take awhile..........grin

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Sorry Mark, no over 400 yard "real life" shot stories from me.....have shot plenty of LR "real life" paper and steel though. I can recall several 500 yard targets of mine that looked like Shane's 1000 yard one! That boy can shoot.

After seeing this thread and Pat's groups, I'm thinking I need to give turrets a try.


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Dober,

I'll be picking up my 6.5-06 next week from the gunsmith. I've got a Leupold 4.5-14LR w/ the B&C reticle to put on top but I saw your question about the CDS scope. What did you find out about the CDS? I'm planning on shooting 140's out of my 6.5-06 at deer and antelope. Thanks. HP.

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Originally Posted by Calvin


I'll ask you.. If you put two good shooters side by side, one with turrets and one holding over, which one do you think would be able to consistently be able to make more perfect shots at 400 yards?


I shoot routinely with guys who use turrets,and reticles,pretty regularly.....we use similar cartridges that generate 3000 to 3200-3300 fps.Properly zeroed, such rifles/cartridges show 8"-12" of drop at the 400 yard line.This is not too difficult to deal with,either at the range or in the field.

I remember last year shooting with a buddy at 400 and 500 yards one afternoon;he shooting a 300RUM with turrets; I was shooting a 7RM with the 140 gr AB,and a 2.5-8xLeupold.He clicked,and I allowed for drop with that load;results were too similar to discuss as we both hit what we were aiming at...


We went to 500,where, of course things get trickier. He clicked up;I knew the load dropped about 25" from my zero at that distance,and also knew that POI coincided with the tip of the bottom post of the reticle when the scope was set at 6X. So I had some help which made it easy and this is really just a variation of using dots.

When we got to the butts to check targets my buddy noticed there was no difference in group size nor point of impact between the two targets;he asked how I did it,and I told him.

No one can rationally argue that turrets are not the tool for the job once distances get on the far side of 500 yards or so;or if you use a slower cartrdige with a more curved trajectory; that a reticle assist system of some sort will get you to 500-600 yards easier than holding up in thin air,because bullet drop becomes really excessive at those distances, a lot more so with some cartridges than with others.

I think most of the argument about these various systems comes into play at distances inside 500 yards;some seem to think they are essential at 200 to 400 yards; others have no need for them at these ranges.All seem to work depending on the proficiency of the user; one may or may not be slower or faster than the other but this varies with circumstances in the field.

In a hunting scenario at 400 yards, the turret folks are fond of saying to the holdover guys..."...well, you're holding in thin air...". No you aren't. You have frames of reference which you "know",or should,if you do any shooting/hunting and pay attention and shoot at those distances enough.

I know very little to nothing of turrets and their applications..I do know MPBR and holdover at distances to 400- 500 yards,both at the range and in the field,on live animals,(which are now dead animals smile For me, the turrets would be most useful on the far side of 400 yards;inside that distance,with the cartridges and loads I use to hunt BG, I don't need them for BG hunting.

Course shooting wood chucks and PD's is a different story;and a different ball game as well smile

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Originally Posted by gunnut308
Hey Dober, a while back on here a fella started a thread on here called "Spinnin and Grinnin" he was shooting a plain ole almost forgotten .270 win (like the one I use every season). He did lots of load development and the works.

He brought home some "Longrange Venison". Its a good read.....

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Hi gunnut,
The "Spinnin and Grinnin" thread that you speak of doesn't show up on my searches.. Do you remember who the author was.. Sounds like a thread that I would like to read having a .270 myself that I am just starting to reload for (when I find my dies blush, they havn't turned up on any of my searches either, double blush)
Thanks

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Shot my BIL's wounded cow elk at 475 with my 270TI with a 6x36 with turrets. that's the only time i've ever needed to shoot that far since i started using turrets. I shot a cow elk when was 16 at a guesstimated 600 (pre LRF days) with an 06 with hold over, it weren't pretty but got the job done.

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"Spinnin and Grinnin"

www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/3583069/Searchpage/2/Main/277603/Words/grinnin%2A/Search/true/Spinning_and_Grinning_turrets#Post3583069


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Thanks for that link Rick!
Now you don't happen to know where I put my .270 dies do you?. whistle



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No, but I have a spare set if you, being a good BC'er and all, need to borrow them. grin


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Only coyotes, crows and gophers for me using turrets. All my BG animals seem to show up at 350 yards or less grin

Used turrets to nail a few crows and several gophers at 400+ yards. My longest first shot hit to date was on a coyote on a calm morning. Ranged him at 942 yards, got a readout from my ballistic program, dialed it into my 3-9x40 Burris FFII Tactical, squeezed one off and hit him in the chest.

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Turrets look like fun, but also seem a bit out of place under 400 yards on BG. Also seem a touch more prone to Murphy and his problems. For BG under 600 yards I like dots, but for small targets I can see where turrets are the real deal. Might give them a spin one of these seasons (pun intended - grin).


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Hold over has it's advantages, so do turrets.

A well practiced hold over shooter can probably line up his victim and put the meat on the ground a little quicker. In low light, he has the advantage of not having to take the time to visually check the dial or count clicks, this does take more time.

However, if a buck is poking his head thru the brush at 300+ yds. at the edge of a field and that's all I have to shoot at, I want the turrets. A 3" or 4" mistake with holdover could cost you. I find myself in this type of situation far more because of the terrain I hunt in and that's why I run them on certain rifles.

In short, there are other benefits to turrets than just using them stictly for 500+ long range shooting. When one has to make a precise, mid-distanced shot at a very small target, they are hard to beat.

Disclaimer: I have never killed a big game animal past 350 yds. but I have shot a boat load of coyotes out to 600+ so I may not know what I am talking about. grin

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Used once on my friend's gun (who also happens to be my gunsmith) He dialed the scope for me. All I did was went prone and squeezed the trigger. Missed first shot, but the second one nailed her. 550+ yards. Hard to believe what 75 grainer Amax is capable of...

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Brad-I've got a 3-10 Leo with M1 on my 70/06 at this time. Been toting it this spring on most bruin jaunts and working it @ Logan. If you wish to work with it for a bit let me know and I'll drop it off.

JM-yotes @ 600 is a heck of a good shot! I've had more trouble grassing long range yotes than any other critter.

About your 300 yd head shot scenario I've not done it with BG but I did on a yote. My one and only tripple off the call. First two dogs hung up across a coulee so I held the 300 dotz (6/06 with Premier dotz) and got both. Third one ran in some brush and played peekaboo. I cranked up the scope to top end (6-20 Leo) and put the 300 dot on tween the running lights and dropped the hammer (and him).

My point about BG was I didn't wish to have a bunch of people say I shot targets past 400 with them, I wanted to see in the real world of BG hunting how many had and what they had done. And like I had said I knew what SU and Scenar had done but I wanted to hear from others as well. From the responses it doesn't appear that many (including the heavy backers of turrets) have used them past 400. And like I mentioned b4 the reason I picked 400 is cause to me that's when I can begin to see some use for them. And yeah I know that one can use them at less than 400 I get that.

Have a super day and shoot some hogs for me...grin

Dober


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And on another side note to all, I am in no way against turrets. I'll most likely use them more in the future. First time I started with them was back in the early 90's for chucks @ llong range with my 240 Page Souper Pooper.

If I get a 7/08 project that I'm on together by fall I'll most likely stick the 3-10 on it and rock on from Minne to Montana. I realize that one fall isn't much of a work out but with my wife, a friends son who'll be with us and several others I hunt with I'm sure it'll see more than a few tags punched..grin

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I may have forgotten to mention I missed more than a few that far as well. frown

Me not a great wind doper, that's why I started cheating and shooting a 160 gr. 7 mm bullets at them. blush
We hunted farm fields and would set up using the wind, so the yotes would come out on the far side from us.

Good thing is that past 500 yds. they usually gave me a 2nd chance. grin

Have a good one.

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I shot this morning at 430yds. I did both holdover and turrets, to see if there was really any difference between the two. according to JBM, 6.7moa on the turret, or 28-29 inch holdover. Same rifle for both. No wind at all. 162amax out of a 7saum.

My target was a smaller shoe box, that would hold kids shoes, with a piece of blue tape in the middle to give me something to aim at. I hit the shoe box on every single shot (shot a total of 12 times), with both my holdovers and using the turret. Because I'm not used to holding over, it took me twice as long to pull the trigger, as I was trying to get some sort of reference for 29" With a little practice though, it'd be nothing for me to speed up the process though.

My last 3 shots with the turret resulted in a sub 2" group, with 2 of the shots touching. I said enough, and put the rifle away for deer season.

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Jm-I totally hear you about missing them, I'd like to have a dollar for every yote I've missed past 300 yds, could take a few of us on a nice hunt most likely. I finally got to the point where I try hard to kill most of the sub 300 yd yotes and take the longer one as I can.

My fav yote rifles are my 6/06 with Premier reticle dotz with 95 NBT's and my 7 Mashburn Super with Premier dotz to 700 and 150 NBT's.

Dober


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Good report Calvin, next time set that 162 load 3" high @ 100, thinking the drop would be more like 15" and that'll make it easier. I've found that with hold over that the extra speed to flatten things out don't hurt.

You touched on one thing here and that's that it took you a bit longer to get it done cause you weren't used to the hold over thingy. Pretty sure we'd all find that we're quicker with the methods we've not been using for years. Point being, with hold over or dotz I'd get it done now, cause I've not used the turrets as much it'd take me an extra second or two to get it clicked in. Not much time mind you, I've been spinning a bit this spring and I could do it pretty darn quick. But for me it takes me a second or two more cause I have to think about it. If I new the clicks I had to turn in by heart then all it'd take me is the time it takes to reach up and turn it and then to get my hand back on the pistol grip.

Which brings me to another question for the turret turners. You're shooting right handed do you turn the turret with your right hand or your left?

Thx
Dober


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Mr. Dober,
My experiences thus far:

722 Remington .244, 85gr Nosler Partition @ 3400fps, M8 12X Leupold with Stoney Point Knob

Doe antelope 725 yards (broke offside shoulder!)
Buck antelope 625 yards (dropped on the shot)

Pre 64 Winchester 70 .264 Win. Mag, 130gr Scirocco @ 3150fps, M8 8X Leupold with Stoney Point Knob

Doe antelope 475 yards
Buck antelope 625 yards
Doe antelope 600 yards
Buck antelope 775 yards (5-10mph wind, ran 200 yards and dropped. Dropped one lung and quartered behind diaphragm)

CLR hybrid 7mm Rem. Mag, 168gr Berger @ 2950fps, Burris Short Mag 4.5-14X with Stoney Point Knob

Doe antelope 600 yards wounded, broke front leg @ base, follow up shot required @ 150 yards

I have missed a few shots, but only @ 800 to 900 yards, have not missed @ 400 to 775 yards. This reflects my experience at the range as well. Barring wind issues (which are real obviously), the 400 to 800 yard shots are pretty straight forward. Things change beyond 800 yards as the trajectory arc gets steeper (at least with my rifles/cartridges). You've really got to know your stuff and have optimal conditions. Just my two bits!

What has really impressed me is how quickly these animals go down, often bang flops or after staggering in place for a second or two.... lack of adrenaline maybe?



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Thx Lund, you from Minne by chance?

My first scope with a turret on it was a 12 leo, really like that scope. Also, I don't have a 8 Leo but do have a 7.5 Leo and love it as well. Probably one of my all time fav scopes.

Dober


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I have used turrets since 1999 on big game and longer than that on varmints. My longest shot using turrets was on a magpie that kept coming in to feed on a rockchuck I had killed earlier when I was closer. The dead chuck was at 750 yards now and after a few tries to figure out the wind I finally nailed the magpie. I was pretty stoked.

Back in 1999 I saw my first cougar. It was in August and at that time the season started on August 1st. When I first spotted it the range was 600 yards. I did some calling and brought it in to 500 yards. It was across a canyon and if it got much lower in the canyon I would not be able to see it again (brush as well as it was right at sunset). At the time I did not have my Stoney Point Target Knob yet attached to my Leupold VXIII 2.5-8 so I tried to judge the holdover of 23" (7mm Rem Mag shooting the blue Barnes 140 XLC with a 275 yard zero). I missed twice- I did go over to look and found no evidence of a hit. I figure I just mis judged the holdover. Mountain lions are not very deep back to brisket. Any way I was mighty bummed. Shortly after that I did get the target knob attached and practiced with it. Later that November I spotted a deer at 508 yards and got prone with my Kramer Snipepod and dialed up 19 clicks and fired one shot which dropped the deer DRT.

In early October of 2004 I shot a black bear at 540 yards with the same scope mounted on my 300 Win Mag. Later that same month I shot a deer at 455 yards across a canyon. I decided to go up the ridge I was on and drop off some stuff, including my rifle, back at my truck before heading up hill and down another ridge to get on the other side of the canyon where the deer was before dropping down to the deer. When I got down to it I found that a bear was wanting to lay claim to my deer. I was quite surprised that it did not run off when it first saw me. It was probably surprised that I did not run off too but dang it that was my deer and I had the foresight to pack along my hogleg (Ruger Bisley 45 Colt with handload consisting of Beartooth Bullets 345 grain Hard Cast thumper. I fired a round over the bear's head and it finally begrudgingly departed. Lucky for it that I had already filled my bear tag. I will tell you though that I was rather nervous as it got dark on me well before I was done converting the deer carcass into packable pieces.

In late November of 2005 my brother used my 300 Win Mag to take a deer at 480 yards after he dialed in the clicks as instructed by me at his side.

In Feb of 2006 I used the same setup to kill my second cougar (first one was taken in Jan of 2001 with my 7mm but I did not need to use the turret as it was only at 310 yards). I had tracked the lion for a couple hours through a couple canyon and ridges when I spotted it further up the canyon I was now in. It was slowly working its way up the slope on the opposite side of the canyon from me. It was 440 yards out and I dialed in the neccesary clicks and let out a meow at it to stop it. This worked and I fired. The cat ran back down into the bottom. I thought I had connected and proceeded up the canyon toward it. After a bit I saw it again going up the slope. I was now 400 yards from it so I adjusted the turret and got prone in the deep snow and fired after again stopping it with a call. This time I made a good hit. After finally working my way to it I discovered that my first shot had only grazed its hind leg (it was quartering away from me at that shot more than I realized). The second shot was a good chest hit).

Sometime in 2007 that 2.5-8 crapped out on me and I decided to have Leupold exchange it for a 3.5-10 with the B&C reticle so that is what I am now using. I thought the new scope would have the same adjustments as my old one and I had planned on installing the Stoney Point Target Knob so that I could use it as well as the B&C reticle but found out when it arrived that they had changed the adjustment knobs. I liked using the turrets but do wonder if all that dialing up and down wore things out. The B&C reticle seems to be a pretty good alternative for me (I really do not see much likelihood of me shooting at game beyond 600 yards).

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Dober,
Actually reside in Utah, but my Grandfather's family homesteaded in Abercrombie, ND about 40 miles south of Fargo. I lived in Fargo for one year back in 1991, really liked it and obviously developed an affinity for Lund boats while there! I spent a fair amount of time fishing over in the Detroit Lakes area. Some of the nicest people in the world live in that upper midwest area.

I love the M8 fixed scopes as well. I picked up a 7.5 as well but have not found a home for it. Went with the 8X because of the AO but probably not needed.

I was up in your country last week fishing around Quake Lake. Lots of rain so I took a trip to Ennis to check out Shed Horn Sports. Very nice! I see why you guys like that place. Ennis is'nt too bad either... never get tired of that country, rain or no rain. Fishing was'nt bad either.

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DL is the area I got older at (could say grew up but that wouldn't be quite true now would it...grin).

Next time you're up here give me a call. I hear they're hitting the Gulpers pretty well on the N shore of Hebgen right now. Quake has always given me fits when it comes to fishing, love the country but it hasn't treated me well in terms of catching fish. I was in Shedhorn last week as well. A fella brought in a M70 PF 7x57, wonder if it's still there?

Dober


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I recently dialed my .22LR in for 235 yards, with no wind. Missed a killdeer by 1" left, made the correction and the feathers really flew.

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Now that's what I should of been using all those years as a kid chasing those darn killdeera round with a stick and string. I'd get just about close enough and then move another 10 yds...

Dober


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You may want to refrain from that story. They are Federally protected.


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Dober,
Yes, the M70 7mm Mauser was still there and caught my eye! And so did the Winlite 300 Wby, the Model 61 .22's, the Savage 99's, and the...., and the....! I finally had to walk out... needed money to get home. Glad I'm not too close to that place.

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Originally Posted by Calvin
I shot this morning at 430yds. I did both holdover and turrets, to see if there was really any difference between the two. according to JBM, 6.7moa on the turret, or 28-29 inch holdover. Same rifle for both. No wind at all. 162amax out of a 7saum.

My target was a smaller shoe box, that would hold kids shoes, with a piece of blue tape in the middle to give me something to aim at. I hit the shoe box on every single shot (shot a total of 12 times), with both my holdovers and using the turret. Because I'm not used to holding over, it took me twice as long to pull the trigger, as I was trying to get some sort of reference for 29" With a little practice though, it'd be nothing for me to speed up the process though.

My last 3 shots with the turret resulted in a sub 2" group, with 2 of the shots touching. I said enough, and put the rifle away for deer season.


Calvin hit the nail squarely on the head with his comment on "some sort of reference".This is completely true dealing with a shoe box or some other small target at 430 yards;and the fact that he likely was zeroed lower than for example, I'd be likely to be zeroed with the same load,so had to deal with more drop.

The key issue with hold over is that,with a BG animal(anything from a pronghorn buck -15" through the chest;to a big northern deer of either species-18"-20" through the chest,to a bull elk,where I always used the figure of app 32" to figure this stuff out,the animal itself provides that frame of referencethat Calvin was looking for but had to sort of "guess at" with the shoe box.Which is why I have said before that you are not "holding in thin air" with the "holdover";you have a very definite point of reference on a BG animal,and gravity is constant.

Zeroed 3" high at 100 yards with a 7 mag and 160 gr bullet at 3100 or so,a guy is about 3.5" high at 200,dead on at 300 yards(similar loads from 270's and 300 mags behave about the same). At 400 yards such a load is down about 10".On a buck deer,a slight bit of daylight between top of back and crosshairs will give a center chest hit;on a bull elk a high shoulder hold will give about the same results.Point to this is that you always have this same point of reference,and why, to 400 yards on BG animals,this sort of system is fast and flexible.

Obviously if your target is a 4" dot at the same distance of 430 yards,a precisely zeroed scope with turrets will pull you right in;and ditto on a varmint rifle where the target is a woodchuck or some other small animal.But it's different when hunting BG animals.

Another point when hunting BG is that if you used a fixed 4X or 6X (say)for a lot of your BG hunting,and shot distances to 600 yards with it,you developed a very definite "feel"for how far away animals were because you were always dealing with one magnification,as opposed to being able to jump around as one can with a variable(this may not be as important now as it was for many of us prior to introduction of reliable rangefinders). You also had consistent reticle subtension that helped with bullet drop and ranging animals; this is good stuff to know if the rangefinder quits or it is otherwise impossible to get a reading, as happened to me last year at 340 yards.

Zeroed the way I suggested with a 7 mag,and a fixed 6X(or say a 2.5-8 set on 6X) Leupold,your 500 yard aiming point is the bottom post of the duplex; so even holdover guys use the reticles to help them,and is part of the reason some say the turrets are not needed to 400 yards or so.

This all becomes very intuitive after a lot of hunting and shooting,which is helpful at times.One big-bodied 5x5 bull elk was peeling through the oak brush,running from another hunter.I ran to get into the best possible position,plopped prone and a quick glance and a peek through the 4X told me I was dealing with 450-500 yards.(Even if LRF's had been available, there was no time to use it.)The bull stopped and turned, quartering on and I gave 18-20" of holdover(300 Win Mag-180 at 3125),hit point of the shoulder,which dumped him;his head was still up so I held slightly above the base of the antlers,and the second shot broke his neck.It was over in about 10-15 seconds because it had to be done in that time frame or not at all....like Dober says sometimes things happen fast up on the hill. grin

....a good guy with turrets would likely have pulled it off as quickly.I dunno; we didn't have them then.... smile

Today you can mix and match both systems to suit you.

Last edited by BobinNH; 06/15/10.



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Originally Posted by Mark R Dobrenski

(still need to have FVA and wildswalker chime in, they're strong supporters of turrets as well)


While you phrase the question nicely and even give a "Thx" I can't help but get the feeling the question doesn't match the intent.
I have and am a proponent of both aim point reticles and turrets and see the value and benefits of both. The quarry/range criteria make most of my experience not applicable.






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Holding off for the wind with holdover is what sucks.....with a center hold a guy has the reticle for hold off reference....and IMO the mildot reticle really shines for that application.

[Linked Image]

An example here....reticle is a GenII....scope is a S&B 4-16X50 PMII. Coyote was 340 meters, wind was 7 blowing right to left.(.5 mil holdoff, ele ^ 1.0 mils, 10 clicks)


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6X6 bull I passed on last fall in the Missouri Breaks. Showing a P3 standard mildot reticle. This bull was only 200 meters. Scope is a 3-12X50 S&B PMII.


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Originally Posted by scenarshooter
Holding off for the wind with holdover is what sucks.....with a center hold a guy has the reticle for hold off reference....and IMO the mildot reticle really shines for that application.

[Linked Image]

An example here....reticle is a GenII....scope is a S&B 4-16X50 PMII. Coyote was 340 meters, wind was 7 blowing right to left.(.5 mil holdoff, ele ^ 1.0 mils, 10 clicks)


Yep, holding for elevation or windage is one thing. Holding for both another.
Aim point reticles without windage marks are of limited use,IME. And Aim point reticles with them pretty specific to cartridge and in most cases magnification.
Turrets are without doubt more adaptable and require much less initial range work as well when switching a scope to a different rifle/cartridge combo.


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Mark,
I shoot deer often at ranges around 600 yards. I like to keep it to 600 or less because I feel extremely comfortable at this range. Past 600 variables really start showing their teeth. Remember in AL we get a doe per day for nearly 75 days so you can do a lot of practicing if so inclined. Could I stalk closer than 600, yes most of the time, but its for practice more than anything so that I'll be ready for when I might really need to be effective at longer ranges. A lot more so than deer, I bang 600 yard steel.

Case in point. I'm from AL and only within the last several years have I been able to afford western elk hunting. I've only killed two elk, both being nice bulls. One was at around 100 yards and the other was at 600 and moving away fast. It was the last day of the hunt and we spotted him at around 500 but he spotted us first. I quickly set up as he was cautiously moving away. As I settled in the elk stopped to assess the situation and gave me a broad side. My huning partner and spotter called 597. I felt all warm and fuzzy inside because most of my practice is at 600. I was ultra confident in the shot, which proved fatal.

To put it in a nutshell, turrents and practice was the difference in taking a bull and not taking a bull. This coming from a guy that has to pinch pennies for the chance to kill a bull in 5 days every couple of years.

I am a HUGE fan of turrets!

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Originally Posted by scenarshooter
Holding off for the wind with holdover is what sucks.....with a center hold a guy has the reticle for hold off reference....and IMO the mildot reticle really shines for that application.

[Linked Image]

An example here....reticle is a GenII....scope is a S&B 4-16X50 PMII. Coyote was 340 meters, wind was 7 blowing right to left.(.5 mil holdoff, ele ^ 1.0 mils, 10 clicks)


Pat: So here,you use the first dot down rather than put in the 10 clicks?




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The threads that get started when I'm offline for a few days [sheesh]

Mil-dots were effective as hell, even before S&B put the half mil hash marks in them. I usually ran Loopies when I played with "tactical" rifles.

I liked dialing up the elevation and using the dots for hold-off. You knew your high/low was good if the horizontal wire was over the taret. But like in Pat's pic, I'd do that if time didn't allow twisting turrets. Kent Gooch once said something along the lines of "An educated guess is better than pokin' and hopin'."

That having been said, I never saw the need for turrets or mils for killing game inside 400. Duplex reticles make pretty good range estimators, and you can dope hold-over pretty easy. At the end of the day it all comes down to the nut behind the buttplate. I'm comfortable with my method inside 400, and what I love about hunting is GETTING inside 400. Now varmints and rifle ranges are meant for pushing the envelope, and thats where we push ourselves to improve.


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Originally Posted by scenarshooter
Holding off for the wind with holdover is what sucks.....with a center hold a guy has the reticle for hold off reference....and IMO the mildot reticle really shines for that application.

[Linked Image]

An example here....reticle is a GenII....scope is a S&B 4-16X50 PMII. Coyote was 340 meters, wind was 7 blowing right to left.(.5 mil holdoff, ele ^ 1.0 mils, 10 clicks)


Hi scenar. That looks like a high hold for 370 yds. What cal/load were you shooting and what distance were you originally sighted for?

When a yote would face me, I would aim just under the black spot of his nose. grin

Good shooting,

JM

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JM,

That was just a through the scope pic....I put in elevation, waited for him to turn broadside, held off .5(1st hash mark left side) and took the shot.

Rifle is a 6XC shooting 105 scenars at 3100fps.


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Bob, I could have used the first dot under the crosshair as it is 1.0 mils....instead I adjusted and held the hash mark left of the crosshair(.5)for drift. This system is very effective for me. I have made quite a few shots using the mildots as aiming points if there is no wind and the range for said dot is exact. I never use the windage turret...

For example with the 6XC, first dot under is 340M, 2nd is 470M, 3rd is 580M, 4th is 680M.


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Pat,

As many pictures of dead critters you have posted, I'd say your shooting system works just fine!!!

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Thanks bro....hows that new .300 shooting? I'm picking up 2 brand new GAP rifles tomorrow in Miles City!!!!


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I understand Pat, Thanks for explaining. The mil dots make sense to me explained that way..




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The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Originally Posted by scenarshooter
Thanks bro....hows that new .300 shooting? I'm picking up 2 brand new GAP rifles tomorrow in Miles City!!!!




I'm jealous Pat





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I got a question for you Pat.

If you had any amount of money to buy a "tactical" scope, would it be a S&B?


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Also Pat, do you use any Leupold products with turrets on it?

Thx
Dober


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Originally Posted by DanAdair
Pat,
If you had any amount of money to buy a "tactical" scope, would it be a S&B?


And if you DIDN'T have $1800 to spend on a S&B, what would you get?


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""I'd love to see a side by side contest between 2 shooters. One hold over, and one turret twister. Between 3-400 yards, with paper plate sized targets, at random ranges (like 324, 345, 371, 395) It would be interesting to see which method produced the most precise hits at those ranges.""


Calvin,

On a monthly bais I shoot with a bunch of guys & girls who shoot sniper/tactical stuff. One of the events we shoot is basically what you describe. We shoot an 18" plate @ 200, 300, 400, 500 and 600 yds; timed. When I first started doing it, I twisted my NF turrets and it took me around the 50's in seconds. When I figured out how to run it with my NP-R1 reticle, holding over I cut my time down into the 30's. We a few guys who with their reticle run the 5 targets down into the mid teen's for seconds; their smokin!!!!

Hope this helps.

Alan

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Originally Posted by DanAdair
I got a question for you Pat.

If you had any amount of money to buy a "tactical" scope, would it be a S&B?


Dan, I've sure had good luck with them so far....I think there are many really good quality Tactical scopes out there, Leupold, NF, IOR, to name a few. Today I'm mounting up a Hensoldt 4-16X56 FF on a GAP .260. This is the first Hensoldt scope I've tried. I will compare it to the PMII's I'm running on other rifles.

Mark, I've never owned a Leupold tactical scope, but have several friends that run them and they seem to work great. All of my experiences with Leupold products over the years have been positive.

I'm working up this new .260 today and I'll try to get a range report and some pics up a bit later...


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No need Pat, its gonna be a one hole target anyway grin





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GSSP-when you hit those steel plates @ 200/300/400/500/600 was it any particular order or did you mix it up?

Thx
Dober


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My best shot had a lot of luck involved. Back in the early 80's, I only had a Range finder called a Ranging 1000. The Ranging 1000 was an optical unit where you moved two images together and read a crude dial.

We sighted in our 7 Mags with 168g Match kings to go on an Antelope hunt. Hunting rifle scopes with target turrents did not exist back then, so I was using a fixed 16x leupold target scope with it's limited travel, and had the target knob marked from actual shooting out to 600 yards.

When we went on the antelope hunt, we saw a good buck and hunted him for 3 days. Finally on the last day of the hunt, we saw him.
I rolled out a mat on the ground and pulled down the legs on my bi-pod, and ranged the buck.

The Crude ranging 1000 gets very touchy on reading the range after 500 yards, kinda like the side focus on a lot of scopes these days. Well, the range finder read 800 and a touch over 3 times, so I screwed the knobs to their limit at 600 and held over at an approximate guess.

The shot was so far, the 7 Mag had time to settle back down on the bi-pod when I saw the bullet hit. No doubt that the 168g Match King hit the ground about 75 yards directly in line with him, short....then I saw him just fall over! The bullet bounced right into him...now that is what I call luck!

That was the first time I had ever used target turrents in the field. I was given the idea one day at the range when I was shooting beside a guy named Mid Tompkins. He was screwing on the sights of a m1A as he went up and down on the range he was shooting. We got to talking about military snipers and now they screw up and down on their sights all the time.

The best shot that I have ever seen was not on big game. In 1976 a guy named Gary Bird with a Rem 700 BDL Varmint 223 and a 24x Tasco(unertl copy) with target knobs, shooting a load of 26g of H335 and a 55g Sierra Semi Point made the best shot that I have ever witnessed. We were shooting ground squirrels outside San Diego. Ground squirrels ranged from 350 yds to as far as you could see across a large field with giant rocks as large as your house. The ground squirrels would crawl up on the rocks and sun themselves. I was shooting a Rem 700 6 Rem Varmint and had a 6-18 Redfield. About 350 was as far as I could connect due to the amount of hold over reqired(I was sighted in at 200). Gary just kept clicking the Tasco up, walking the bullets into the squirrels.

I ranged a large rock at 700 yards with the Ranging 1000 that had 4 squirrels on it. Gary gave the dial a whirl, took a shot at a squirrel on the top of the giant rock, and the bullet hit 4' low. Gary put the cross hairs back on the squirrel and clicked the windage and elevation right to the bullet hole on the rock. Then the squirrel got squirrely and jumped off the rock and ran 100 yards to the shade. Gary was getting lined up on the squirrel after dialing in more elevation. Then squirrel jumped up on the side of the tree. Gary shot, then you saw the bark fly off the tree. The squirrel was left hanging from the tree by a right front foot toe nail....then fell, dead as an anvil. We walked off 820 large steps as the nats made a lunch out of us.

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Originally Posted by Mark R Dobrenski
GSSP-when you hit those steel plates @ 200/300/400/500/600 was it any particular order or did you mix it up?

Thx
Dober


Dober,

All three. Sometimes in, sometimes out, sometimes a hodge podge given to us by the range master.

Alan

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Originally Posted by scenarshooter
Originally Posted by DanAdair
I got a question for you Pat.

If you had any amount of money to buy a "tactical" scope, would it be a S&B?


Dan, I've sure had good luck with them so far....I think there are many really good quality Tactical scopes out there, Leupold, NF, IOR, to name a few. Today I'm mounting up a Hensoldt 4-16X56 FF on a GAP .260. This is the first Hensoldt scope I've tried. I will compare it to the PMII's I'm running on other rifles.

Mark, I've never owned a Leupold tactical scope, but have several friends that run them and they seem to work great. All of my experiences with Leupold products over the years have been positive.

I'm working up this new .260 today and I'll try to get a range report and some pics up a bit later...



I look forward to seeing the pictures of the .260


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Thx GSSP-that sounds like a lot of fun. I've mainly used my 7 Mashburn Super with dotz for work like this. Obviously I'd have a reload challenge but I'm thinking my times would be more than adequate.

Wish I could find a range fairly close that would have that kind of steel to give it a rip. We used to do something sort of like that except on the same gong. We'd load the gun down (not hot), then be told to hit it, we'd hit the ground and then triple tap the 430 yd gong. Under 10 seconds with the magnums was doable. When I was in sink with the gun I'd try to get the 2nd shot off b4 the sound of the first bullet striking the gong got back to me. Never could do that but it was fun to try...grin

Maybe this summer I'll get Brad and go out to his land and set out targets and give it a go. This is where it'd be nice to have a 308 or a 7/08 to work with, especially what I call a short fat.

Thx

Dober


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A couple pics of Crusader .260. Been shooting it and working on loads between rain storms all day..I'm happy so far.....grin!

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Last two 5 shot groups in some pretty lousy wind and rain...


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Thinking that's a darn good start! What kind of speed is that load running?

And how long you sposes it's gonna stay so green this summer? I was up in Jackson Crick this morn and yeepers is it ever gorgeous up there!

Dober


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The average velocity on those 10 shots was 2844fps. Easy bolt lift and nice round primers....I've got another 10 rounds loaded up 1/2 grain more(42.5 4350) ready to go. Waitng for the wind to go down a bit. Already blew over the screens once..thinking if I could get 2900fps with the 139 scenar with a BC of .615...well, that would be OK!!!!


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26"?

Dober


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26" Schneider 1-8"


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Nice, you had Schneiders b4?

Dober


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Nice rifle Pat!

And nice weather, I can't believe it!

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Originally Posted by Mark R Dobrenski
Nice, you had Schneiders b4?

Dober


A first for me....how else is a guy going to find out how good something is without trying it? I've always heard good things about them and figured it was time to give one a whirl..it broke in fast and is very smooth! I think its fast too!!

Sam, it is so green up here its almost unblievable...


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Pat,
That is a heck of a rifle, congrats.

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Pat,

that is a grand rig and some fine shooting.


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Pat-I've been around quite a few Schneiders, at this time I have a 4 wt on my 6/06, a 4.5 wt on my 7 Mashburn Super and a 5 wt on the my 375 Wby and almost forgot but a 4 weight on my 338 WSM. I've also had several others been around quite a few others.

To date, all have shot very well, broke in very well, clean up very well lived and their life cycles went very well.

The only wonky experience I had was with a 5 wt 10 Twist 257 Bee. It did everything very well the only fly in the oinment was it shot very very well....but only @ Roberts speeds. One of the weirder tubes I've ever been around for sure.

Shoot often and shoot straight.

Dober


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Pat,
That is a sweet machine and the scope looks pretty bad a$$.
Believe you mentioned you picked up two rifles. What was the other?


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Some of you guys use european scopes with the reticle in the wrong plane.
When you crank up the power, the reticle thickness increases a lot. What technique do you use when the reticle obliterates the target area of an animal at long range, do you use the top edge of the horizontal cross hair?

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Not to derail this one....

You must've used a reamer on that one that wasn't SAAMI? Or, you're jam seating them Scenars .030" or so? I'm betting thats a "Tactical 260" reamer that got used?




Also, give RL19 a whirl, if thats the longer throated reamer (with a gentler half cone angle) you should be allright up into 45.5-46 grains.

Last edited by DanAdair; 06/18/10. Reason: RL19

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Originally Posted by StrayDog
Some of you guys use european scopes with the reticle in the wrong plane.
When you crank up the power, the reticle thickness increases a lot. What technique do you use when the reticle obliterates the target area of an animal at long range, do you use the top edge of the horizontal cross hair?


Sounds like you are referring to a first focal plane reticle. While the reticle appears to get larger when you increase magnification, the subtension remains constant. The crosswire on my FFP subtends .2 moa at any power. That's only about 2" at 1000 yards.

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Originally Posted by DanAdair
Not to derail this one....

You must've used a reamer on that one that wasn't SAAMI? Or, you're jam seating them Scenars .030" or so? I'm betting thats a "Tactical 260" reamer that got used?




Also, give RL19 a whirl, if thats the longer throated reamer (with a gentler half cone angle) you should be allright up into 45.5-46 grains.


George built two .260's for me at the same time and I'm just waiting for a scope for the other one witch is a lightweight rifle, very simalar to my "Edge" stocked .308.
Both chambers were cut with minimum freebore...2.800 COAL is .010 off and 2.820 COAL is .010 in with both the 123gr scenar and the 139gr scenar. From looking at the throat with my borescope it is apparent he used a gentle slope angled reamer to finish the throat. That should allow me some peace of mind if I feel I need to get into the rifling. In almost all of the shooting I've done with various Lapua bullets,(scenars) I've found they shoot very well "jumped".


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One thing about hunting in Africa, it taught me was to travel light and quiet,get close,than a little closer..only thing I care to shoot beyound 300 yards is a groundhog...but that's just me.
I have a AO scope on a .264,that I still have questions about....rifle
Nice looking rigs,guys!

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Huh... I didn't think the Scenars would be that much longer (sharper) than the VLDs. But the fact that it shot them that well told me it wasn't a SAAMI reamer either way wink

And to ammed my earlier post, if you're only jumping them .005", I'd stay towards 45 grains of RL19 towards the top end (unless you're a moly junkie)

I used to do spooky things with 142 SMKs in my last 260 laugh


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Dan, How did those 142 SMK's work for killing critters? And what was your twist?

Weather cleared off here this morning so hopefully I can do some more testing asap...10K race at Fort Peck this morning.....ouch!!


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i haven't had much luck with 142s in anything twisted slower than 1:8.5" at .264 WM velocities.

never tried the 142s on game, but i can advise against the 120 SMK at warp speed.


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Pat, how is the Hensoldt scope comparing to your S & B units?


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Mark, you might also try searching some of "sscoyote"'s stuff on here and in other long range forums.

He's a good friend of my brother in Colorado and a ballistics and scope wunderkind. I'm way right brained and have a hard time keeping up with his math, but wish I could have about two weeks with him to learn his system using reticle subtensions, dots, mil-dots, etc. He uses a Leica bino/rangefinder does the math and gets hits very quickly without spinning turrets.

He's big on the single shot specialty pistols and making long range varmint shots with them, but shoots rifles a lot, too.

Last summer 40 miles east of Pueblo, he handed me his custom 26-in. AR in .223 AI with a Weaver V16 with some sort of custom dot system and told me how to hold on a PD I could not see with my naked eye and had a hard time finding with binos.

I trusted him, squeezed real careful and luckily slipped one thru the PD's noggin at 530 yards! I know such hits may be routine to a lot of y'all Westerners but that was the longest hit on a critter I've ever made.

Anyways, he could probably figure a way for you to make regular hits way beyond Ft. Mudge with your Mashburn.

P.S. I'm just gonna spend time trying to figure out how to twirl a Leupold 3.5-10X M1 dial on my LTR this summer.

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Originally Posted by scenarshooter
Dan, How did those 142 SMK's work for killing critters? And what was your twist?

Weather cleared off here this morning so hopefully I can do some more testing asap...10K race at Fort Peck this morning.....ouch!!


Never killed any game with them (unless varmints and coyotes count) and I ran them in a 1:8 twist. They'd group 5 into an inch at 100, and 200, and by 300 they'd open up to 1 3/4" laugh So I'm not thinking I had any issues with stability.

10K??? That doesn't sound fun at all frown Maybe I'll see you at the Grizzly Man next year.


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Another test target from just a few minutes ago....wind went down nice.

I shot better than I ran today!....grin! (3rd in my age group)


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Pat, fine shootin', 3rd sounds pretty good!

I just got in from shooting also, little breeze but pretty damn nice. [bleep] mosquito's are thick as thieves though, I'm sure you don't have any over on the Milk....(grin)

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300WSM(A7/6x42LR) and 175 Nosler CC's at 503 yards. Held about 4" to the right but it wasn't quite enough.

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Steel should show up next week, that's gonna be fun!
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Originally Posted by scenarshooter
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Another test target from just a few minutes ago....wind went down nice.

I shot better than I ran today!....grin! (3rd in my age group)
But they aren't centered... wink You keep this up and I'm gonna really be jonesing for a .260 even more than I already am. Very nice!! I'd be interested in any on critter reports with the 6.5 scenars.

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Well if they work like the 105's in 6MM, the 155's in .308 or the 250's and 300's in .338 they will be fine on antelope and deer sized animals.

I printed up some JBM charts last night and I'm heading out to try it at 600 meters.

Sam, good shooting there....looks like Roosevelt County.


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I can't imagine they wouldn't work, but IIRC some folks here reported some lack of expansion problems with the 123gr version years back. Heavy on the IIRC...

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Originally Posted by scenarshooter

I shot better than I ran today!....grin! (3rd in my age group)


If you run like you shoot Pat, you ought to turn pro.....

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Originally Posted by GSSP
""I'd love to see a side by side contest between 2 shooters. One hold over, and one turret twister. Between 3-400 yards, with paper plate sized targets, at random ranges (like 324, 345, 371, 395) It would be interesting to see which method produced the most precise hits at those ranges.""


Calvin,

On a monthly bais I shoot with a bunch of guys & girls who shoot sniper/tactical stuff. One of the events we shoot is basically what you describe. We shoot an 18" plate @ 200, 300, 400, 500 and 600 yds; timed. When I first started doing it, I twisted my NF turrets and it took me around the 50's in seconds. When I figured out how to run it with my NP-R1 reticle, holding over I cut my time down into the 30's. We a few guys who with their reticle run the 5 targets down into the mid teen's for seconds; their smokin!!!!

Hope this helps.

Alan



Got to the range, did time trial with a dirty bolt and rails. Shot @ 210, 330 and 434 (would of gone to 6 but 434 is as far as our range goes). Used my 7 Mashburn Super, off the ground, on a bipod (which is how I use it for long range work). The big 7 bounces me around a bit more than my 7/08 or 270 so it takes a few extra nano seconds to reaquire the targ. I ran it 3x and my times were tween 6-7 seconds all 3 times.

Pretty sure if I had the extra targs @ 500 and 600 that I'd be plus or minus 10 seconds with a gun that held 5 rounds. It might take me a skosh longer with my Mashburn as I'd have to stop to reload...something not too uncommon for me and the way I shoot though.. grin

Good morning at the range

Dober

(side note, took a dotz virgin to the range with me, he pounded the steel and is off to buy his first dotz scope as we speak...grin)


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