A young man whose mother is a good friend of my wife was seriously injured last month at the range. He was firing a Model 70 Winchester in 7mm Remington Magnum. He fired one round with no problems, then jacked in the next round and when he fired, the rifle completely blew up on him. He lost an eye and has had two eye surgeries since then. He was using factory ammunition, not reloads. The family asked me to bring it to this forum and see if anybody with expertise had any theories or insight into what happened. This young man is not a firearms neophyte, having served two hitches in the Marine Corps and been a lifelong hunter.
Since he fired the first round without incident, it is hard to visualize some kind of barrel obstruction, yet amazingly high pressure must have ensued.
Ideas?[
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No helpful information on the rifle side, but I’m very sorry to hear of this incident for the young man’s sake.
I'd be having the remaining ammunition analyzed in an independent lab.
Maybe the first round was primed only or had very little charge and lodged a bullet in the barrel then the next normal load fired caused a pressure spike?
I'd be having the remaining ammunition analyzed in an independent lab.
+1
I hope the young man recovers and is ok.
Maybe the first round was primed only or had very little charge and lodged a bullet in the barrel then the next normal load fired caused a pressure spike?
I've never had a round lodge, but wouldn't it have be obvious if this were case. There would be no gas discharged and the sound would be way off, no?
Maybe the first round was primed only or had very little charge and lodged a bullet in the barrel then the next normal load fired caused a pressure spike?
I've never had a round lodge, but wouldn't it have be obvious if this were case. There would be no gas discharged and the sound would be way off, no?
Don't know jut the only thing that comes to mind.
Is the barrel obstructed now?
If so, nobody is about to re-use the bbl so one could either use a mill to essentially create a "cut-away" bbl exposing the contents, or, decide where the obstruction is, use a cleaning rod and a hammer to drive out the obstruction to whichever end it's closest to.
He was firing a Model 70 Winchester in 7mm Remington Magnum.
A sad affair for sure. The ammo is certainly the place to start.
Custom rifle? The stock and rear sight do not look like a standard or a super grade M70. Has he had it long?
He inherited the rifle from his grandfather. It has been in the family for many years. I don't know if it had been customized in any way, but has had many years of normal use.
Look at the barrel.
It looks undamaged except from the rear closeup.
Obstructed barrels usually peel like a banana.
Kind of weird how the action split, but the barrel inside it didn't seem fazed.
That's about the 8th one I have heard of, shot with Federal ammo in the last 10 years.
One was a handgun. Federal 158 grain round nose 38 Special. The shooter was me. Gun blew up in my hand. I was only cut lightly on my right thumb, but the gun was a total loss.
The others were all rifles and all but one were shot with Federal Premium Ammo. The one exception was a 243, an old Herders J9 rifle and was shot with the "blue box" ammo.
I saw one blow at the Shoshoni Range. Shooter was injured but come out OK. He had some deep cuts on his left hand and and blood from his face, but his eyes were ok. That was a Remington M700 in 270 Winchester caliber. That was the 1st one in fact, about 10 years ago. He was from Iowa and came to Wyoming for an antelope hunt. Poor guy, when I talking to him he was saying he was just going to drive back home the following day.
The others were guns I was shown or told about.
So this is a problem Federal is obviously not paying the needed level of attention to.
The gun and ammo should be analyzed by a competent independent forensic lab. A barrel obstruction would be easy to determine and usually happens further up the tube. A very sad event.
That's about the 8th one I have heard of, shot with Federal ammo in the last 10 years.
One was a handgun. Federal 158 grain round nose 38 Special. The shooter was me. Gun blew up in my hand. I was only cut lightly on my right thumb, but the gun was a total loss.
The others were all rifles and all but one were shot with Federal Premium Ammo. The one exception was a 243, an old Herders J9 rifle and was shot with the "blue box" ammo.
I saw one blow at the Shoshoni Range. Shooter was injured but come out OK. He had some deep cuts on his left hand and and blood from his face, but his eyes were ok. That was a Remington M700 in 270 Winchester caliber. That was the 1st one in fact, about 10 years ago. He was from Iowa and came to Wyoming for an antelope hunt. Poor guy, when I talking to him he was saying he was just going to drive back home the following day.
The others were guns I was shown or told about.
So this is a problem Federal is obviously not paying the needed level of attention to.
That's what lawyers are for.
Ammo could have been tampered with.. by someone with an axe to grind.
That's about the 8th one I have heard of, shot with Federal ammo in the last 10 years.
One was a handgun. Federal 158 grain round nose 38 Special. The shooter was me. Gun blew up in my hand. I was only cut lightly on my right thumb, but the gun was a total loss.
The others were all rifles and all but one were shot with Federal Premium Ammo. The one exception was a 243, an old Herders J9 rifle and was shot with the "blue box" ammo.
I saw one blow at the Shoshoni Range. Shooter was injured but come out OK. He had some deep cuts on his left hand and and blood from his face, but his eyes were ok. That was a Remington M700 in 270 Winchester caliber. That was the 1st one in fact, about 10 years ago. He was from Iowa and came to Wyoming for an antelope hunt. Poor guy, when I talking to him he was saying he was just going to drive back home the following day.
The others were guns I was shown or told about.
So this is a problem Federal is obviously not paying the needed level of attention to.
Was the cause of your ‘accident’ ever determined?
That's about the 8th one I have heard of, shot with Federal ammo in the last 10 years.
One was a handgun. Federal 158 grain round nose 38 Special. The shooter was me. Gun blew up in my hand. I was only cut lightly on my right thumb, but the gun was a total loss.
The others were all rifles and all but one were shot with Federal Premium Ammo. The one exception was a 243, an old Herders J9 rifle and was shot with the "blue box" ammo.
I saw one blow at the Shoshoni Range. Shooter was injured but come out OK. He had some deep cuts on his left hand and and blood from his face, but his eyes were ok. That was a Remington M700 in 270 Winchester caliber. That was the 1st one in fact, about 10 years ago. He was from Iowa and came to Wyoming for an antelope hunt. Poor guy, when I talking to him he was saying he was just going to drive back home the following day.
The others were guns I was shown or told about.
So this is a problem Federal is obviously not paying the needed level of attention to.
I've had some very hot Federal Premium loads. Most recently a box .300RUM trophy bonded 180 grain that was 200 fps over the velocity on the box, stuck the bolt, and blew a primer. Also had one in .300 WSM that flattened a primer and bolt was sticky. Both were fired on hot days but the ammo was in the shade.
Ive never had a rifle blow up but isnt it odd that there doesnt seem to be any damage to the barrel? I remember a few years ago hearing about some Tikka's self destructing. I think the problem was traced to inferior metal. That shouldnt apply here though. Certainly hope they can figure it out.
Gotta ask if the shooter was wearing eye protection.
PSA that you really should wear something when shooting. Eyes are nearly impossible to replace.
May not have helped with the way that action came apart, but just the same.
From what I can tell, that's a pre-64 model... I can see half of the spent case sitting in the chamber.. Barrel appears mostly undamaged - just the receiver blew, right at the area where the base of the case is/was, so I kinda doubt the previous round obstructed the bore or else it would have 'peeled' - as another poster mentioned above.. I'm also thinking it may have been ammo-related and not the rifle..
I'm so sorry to hear of the injuries to the shooter.. Dang..
That is one HELL of a detonation. I think a barrel obstruction would have manifested itself differently , but this most definitively needs to be looked at by professionals.
Ammo could have been tampered with.. by someone with an axe to grind.
No doubt. I have seen people opening ammo boxes and looking at ???? at stores that have them on the shelf. When I was guiding elk clients, twice I caught a hunter comparing ammo and fiddling with stuff, and returned them to the wrong box. I had a rule after that , no ammo was to handled while doing anything but hunting. This was especially hazardous as a few of us had wildcat calibers using some parent brass that was head stamped incorrectly for the wildcat caliber. I quit wildcats after that. One client fired a 30-06 in a 308 Norma Magnum. Blew the extractor off and locked up the bolt.
Where was the factory ammo purchased?
One thing that doesn't seem quiet right with the rifle is the area where the bolt lug shoulders on the action that is sheared away.
When you close the bolt the bolt lugs are up and down (top & bottom), so I expected to see a bunch of white raw metal where it was sheared away provided that the bolt was closed.
But here I see blue color ? Maybe there was a crack in the lug area that let the bolt move back to where the shell was unsupported and blew.
The area I'm describing is here.
![[Linked Image]](https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/gallery/80/full/146763.png)
Ammo could have been tampered with.. by someone with an axe to grind.
Based upon the way the action blew apart yet the barrel looks “fine” makes me think the same thing. Either Federal screwed the pooch big time or some cock sucker intentionally sabotaged the box of ammo. A 7mm case full or half full of pistol powder could cause a hell of a lot of damage.
I’m sorry to hear of the damage done to the shooter. It would seem that he didn’t do anything wrong and wasn’t careless which makes it a sad situation for him. There by the grace of God...
One thing that doesn't seem quiet right with the rifle
I'd guess burned powder covered the metal edges that tore open leaving a blackened appearance, but I had wondered about prior cracks as well.
Does the remaining headstamp of the case in the barrel match those in the box? Is any of the caliber headstamp remaining? Are all the remaining cartridges identical?
Bruce
Sad that this guy got so badly injured through apparantly no fault of his own.
Hope this might be a lesson to all , wear that eye protection any time you are shooting or are around shooting
Side question: under the same circumstances, would the Mauser design have possibly prevented loss of the eye?
Hard to say. Headspace issue? Maybe a long piece of brass snuck through during manufacturing. One of the lugs appears to be sheared off the bolt.
One thing that doesn't seem quiet right with the rifle ]
Been 30 years since I listened to Quiet Riot
Snow, water, mud? Fire in the normal fashion or detonate as one was taking the bolt home?
From what I can tell, that's a pre-64 model... I can see half of the spent case sitting in the chamber.. Barrel appears mostly undamaged - just the receiver blew, right at the area where the base of the case is/was, so I kinda doubt the previous round obstructed the bore or else it would have 'peeled' - as another poster mentioned above.. I'm also thinking it may have been ammo-related and not the rifle..
I'm so sorry to hear of the injuries to the shooter.. Dang..
I agree the action kind of looks like a pre-64 but the barrel does not. That and I'm pretty certain 7mm Rem Mags were never offered in the pre-64s Model 70s.
OP... any details on when and if the rifle has been recently re-barreled? Any other recent work done to it?
Are you people suggesting that either mud dauber wasps built a nest in between rounds at the range, or that snow water or mud otherwise accumulated in the barrel during that time?
A second look it appears to be a problem in the barrel thread area. Wrong thread or torque.
Looks like it was not properly locked up. Or somehow fired out of battery? I had a barrel obstruction once. In a Enfield P-17. Action was fine. But peeled the barrel back about halfway. Replaced the barrel checked headspace and it was good to go.
I was expecting to see a blown up barrel as is usually the case when we see these kind of threads. I’ve never seen one blow up at the base of the case chamber and action before. The way it blew up the stock and scope along with it. It must have been one heck of a pressure spike. I’d like to hear what the cause was when it’s discovered.
Prayers for the shooter.
Maybe the first round was primed only or had very little charge and lodged a bullet in the barrel then the next normal load fired caused a pressure spike?
I've never had a round lodge, but wouldn't it have be obvious if this were case. There would be no gas discharged and the sound would be way off, no?
I've had it happen before. There is no sound but the "click" of the firing pin falling when a bullet lodges in the barrel.
The amount of brass missing, the way the brass is melted/blown back, the undamaged barrel all indicate that the bullet is probably still in the throat or first couple of inches of rifling. That barrel is telling me that the bullet didn't move very far before it took the receiver apart relieving pressure.
Does not look like a case full of bullseye or some such.
Does look like a wrong diameter bullet in the case and maybe something like a 30 cal of some sort was touched off in the rifle. People playing with boxes of ammo in the store have been the cause of stuff like this before.
Were it me I would find out if the shooter had other 30 cal ammo in his possession that would chamber in a 7 mag before I spent much money on an attorney, because when that brass is recovered out of the chamber, there is in my mind a very high probability it will not be 7 mag brass. I have seen an "experienced shooter" try to fire 308 win ammo in a 270 before
From what I can tell, that's a pre-64 model... I can see half of the spent case sitting in the chamber.. Barrel appears mostly undamaged - just the receiver blew, right at the area where the base of the case is/was, so I kinda doubt the previous round obstructed the bore or else it would have 'peeled' - as another poster mentioned above.. I'm also thinking it may have been ammo-related and not the rifle..
I'm so sorry to hear of the injuries to the shooter.. Dang..
I agree the action kind of looks like a pre-64 but the barrel does not. That and I'm pretty certain 7mm Rem Mags were never offered in the pre-64s Model 70s.
You're correct - and I should have mentioned that earlier... It sure looks like a custom rifle - if for no other reason than the pic of that stock..
I was expecting to see a blown up barrel as is usually the case when we see these kind of threads. I’ve never seen one blow up at the base of the case chamber and action before. The way it blew up the stock and scope along with it. It must have been one heck of a pressure spike. I’d like to hear what the cause was when it’s discovered.
Prayers for the shooter.
x2. I'd really like to know as well. That thing looks like a pipe bomb having gone off.
I'm thinking it's an ammo issue. Three years ago my brother had an eerily similar incident that happened while shooting at a mule deer buck. The rifle was a trusted 300 Winchester Mag. Mod.70 (circa 1990's) the ammo was Federal Trophy Bonded 300 Win. Mag. The rifle was damaged but not destroyed. Nevertheless, he also suffered an eye injury, but there was no permanent damage. The cause of the mishap was then and still is a mystery. I said then it looked like an ammo issue and I still believe that.
The amount of brass missing, the way the brass is melted/blown back, the undamaged barrel all indicate that the bullet is probably still in the throat or first couple of inches of rifling. That barrel is telling me that the bullet didn't move very far before it took the receiver apart relieving pressure.
Does not look like a case full of bullseye or some such.
Does look like a wrong diameter bullet in the case and maybe something like a 30 cal of some sort was touched off in the rifle. People playing with boxes of ammo in the store have been the cause of stuff like this before.
Were it me I would find out if the shooter had other 30 cal ammo in his possession that would chamber in a 7 mag before I spent much money on an attorney, because when that brass is recovered out of the chamber, there is in my mind a very high probability it will not be 7 mag brass. I have seen an "experienced shooter" try to fire 308 win ammo in a 270 before
Good analysis. The bullet was able to squeeze just past the free bore area and then got “stuck” when it made contact with the rifling.
The amount of brass missing, the way the brass is melted/blown back, the undamaged barrel all indicate that the bullet is probably still in the throat or first couple of inches of rifling. That barrel is telling me that the bullet didn't move very far before it took the receiver apart relieving pressure.
Does not look like a case full of bullseye or some such.
Does look like a wrong diameter bullet in the case and maybe something like a 30 cal of some sort was touched off in the rifle. People playing with boxes of ammo in the store have been the cause of stuff like this before.
Were it me I would find out if the shooter had other 30 cal ammo in his possession that would chamber in a 7 mag before I spent much money on an attorney, because when that brass is recovered out of the chamber, there is in my mind a very high probability it will not be 7 mag brass. I have seen an "experienced shooter" try to fire 308 win ammo in a 270 before
Good analysis. The bullet was able to squeeze just past the free bore area and then got “stuck” when it made contact with the rifling.
I've never tried, but, can a person chamber a 338Win in a 7Rem mag?
Update:
Pulled the firing pin from a SS M70 Classic in 7Rem Mag, and gave it a whirl. I couldn't chamber blue-box Federal 225's in 338Win.
Wrong ammo is a possibility.
I would look at the grain structure in the thread area. Make sure that there is no case of hydrogen embrittlement. That part of the design should have been 10x in strength.
I saw a BAR 7mm Rem Mag sold off w an undisclosed 7mm 08 round in it.
Chamber end looked empty. No light through bore.
Cleaning rod popped it right out
The amount of brass missing, the way the brass is melted/blown back, the undamaged barrel all indicate that the bullet is probably still in the throat or first couple of inches of rifling. That barrel is telling me that the bullet didn't move very far before it took the receiver apart relieving pressure.
Does not look like a case full of bullseye or some such.
Does look like a wrong diameter bullet in the case and maybe something like a 30 cal of some sort was touched off in the rifle. People playing with boxes of ammo in the store have been the cause of stuff like this before.
Were it me I would find out if the shooter had other 30 cal ammo in his possession that would chamber in a 7 mag before I spent much money on an attorney, because when that brass is recovered out of the chamber, there is in my mind a very high probability it will not be 7 mag brass. I have seen an "experienced shooter" try to fire 308 win ammo in a 270 before
Good analysis. The bullet was able to squeeze just past the free bore area and then got “stuck” when it made contact with the rifling.
Yeah... or some dick in the store may have swapped a couple of cartridges between boxes of different types of ammo. I see a spent case in one of the pics but I'm guessing that wasn't the problematic cartridge. Recovering the problematic case, if still around, may shed a lot of light.
The amount of brass missing, the way the brass is melted/blown back, the undamaged barrel all indicate that the bullet is probably still in the throat or first couple of inches of rifling. That barrel is telling me that the bullet didn't move very far before it took the receiver apart relieving pressure.
Does not look like a case full of bullseye or some such.
Does look like a wrong diameter bullet in the case and maybe something like a 30 cal of some sort was touched off in the rifle. People playing with boxes of ammo in the store have been the cause of stuff like this before.
Were it me I would find out if the shooter had other 30 cal ammo in his possession that would chamber in a 7 mag before I spent much money on an attorney, because when that brass is recovered out of the chamber, there is in my mind a very high probability it will not be 7 mag brass. I have seen an "experienced shooter" try to fire 308 win ammo in a 270 before
Good analysis. The bullet was able to squeeze just past the free bore area and then got “stuck” when it made contact with the rifling.
A 7mm Mag with .024"+ neck clearance???
I don't know where the ammo was purchased. I can ask them.
What possible wrong combination of ammo could have caused this?
Was the rifle in question ever involved in a house-fire? I don't know anything more about hardening and tempering metal than what I've seen on "Forged in Fire". Which is to say, I know less than nothing because I don't even know what I don't know......
I would guess there was a crack under the sheared lug. A lot of hot rounds over the years. I would expect the barrel to split if there had been an obstruction.
That's about the 8th one I have heard of, shot with Federal ammo in the last 10 years.
One was a handgun. Federal 158 grain round nose 38 Special. The shooter was me. Gun blew up in my hand. I was only cut lightly on my right thumb, but the gun was a total loss.
The others were all rifles and all but one were shot with Federal Premium Ammo. The one exception was a 243, an old Herders J9 rifle and was shot with the "blue box" ammo.
I saw one blow at the Shoshoni Range. Shooter was injured but come out OK. He had some deep cuts on his left hand and and blood from his face, but his eyes were ok. That was a Remington M700 in 270 Winchester caliber. That was the 1st one in fact, about 10 years ago. He was from Iowa and came to Wyoming for an antelope hunt. Poor guy, when I talking to him he was saying he was just going to drive back home the following day.
The others were guns I was shown or told about.
So this is a problem Federal is obviously not paying the needed level of attention to.
I certainly would not be passing that ammo back to Federal for its examination. No sirree.
He was firing a Model 70 Winchester in 7mm Remington Magnum.
A sad affair for sure. The ammo is certainly the place to start.
Custom rifle? The stock and rear sight do not look like a standard or a super grade M70. Has he had it long?
I wonder how long the screws are for the rear sight?
That rear sight base looks strange for a winchester.
Usually flip up rear sights are dove tailed in the barrel
The taper of the chamber area into the barrel's length profile is also unusual looking for a winchester.
Rebarreled action like others have said in relation to 7mm rem mag not being made in pre 64,s
Someone mentioned barrel threads and torque also.
wrong caliber ammo for that 2nd round is the big suspect.
1st round went downrange with no hint of a squib.
Sound/ recoil wise 1st round was fine.
OP Said rifle has been used incident free for years.
No sign of bulge, bannana or side blow out in barrel.
Big question.
Where other rifles and calibers being used that day also.
And was everything on the bench or platform being used.
Shooter
1 rifle
1 caliber
On the bench at a time is a good rule to follow .
Where their several shooters and several rifles and calibers all sharing the bench.
Just speculating how the person mighta possibly chambered a different caliber.
Hope he recovers....
One thing that doesn't seem quiet right with the rifle is the area where the bolt lug shoulders on the action that is sheared away.
When you close the bolt the bolt lugs are up and down (top & bottom), so I expected to see a bunch of white raw metal where it was sheared away provided that the bolt was closed.
But here I see blue color ? Maybe there was a crack in the lug area that let the bolt move back to where the shell was unsupported and blew.
The area I'm describing is here.
Front action screw too long, file back-side of starboard side lug until it cleared causing the lug to headspace on the front side of the front action screw? When it finally let go it pulls the screw and lug back through the feed ramp?
At about 11:30 on this pic, there looks to be the number 35. Maybe optical illusion.
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/gallery/80/full/146621.jpg
Overtightening of a non-factory, replacement barrel is sometimes the cause of a cracked receiver ring on pre64 M70 actions. Have heard that the crack develops between the front of the receiver and the foremost of the two factory d&t holes on the receiver ring which would have been underneath the scope mount on this rifle. Appears to be where this one let go and a scenario that merits consideration.
I also find it odd that the stock snapped off at the rear grip. If the receiver / barrel failed with correct ammo, I'd think that would still not result in that level of carnage.
You have better eyes than me. I couldn’t make out squat.
I’d guess an ammo problem, that action flat blew apart due to a heck of a pressure spike. Out of battery or barrel obstruction would look a lot different. Wrong ammo or a bad round full of fast burning powder.
Almost like it fire while out of battery.
It appears the entire explosion was from the chamber back.
Could be anything but it appears (1) it's not an original Model 70 from the Winchester factory and (b) it's likely an ammo problem.
I would (1) take many more photographs, from many different angles, (2) see if the bore is clear, (3) check the fired case, and (4) get a competent gunsmith to look at it. If one of these steps shows you CLEARLY why it happened, then you know whom to sue. If none of them do, see a lawyer. The first consultation will be free and the lawyer will recommend a good lab to analyze it further.
I think there are a handful of questions you should take back to the family, that if can be answered, could narrow things down, rule things in / out, etc.
1. Was the problematic case recovered? If so, what does the headstamp say?
2. Examine the box of ammo. Specifically, check all the headstamps to ensure they're 7mm Rem Mag.
3. Also, if this is a brand new box of ammo, you said he fired a total of two rounds... are there 18 remaining (or 19)? 19 would obviously imply he picked up a stray round.
4. The rifle has been rebarreled. When and by whom was that done? Is the origin or manufacturer of the barrel known?
5. Check for obstructions in the barrel.
6. Maybe a dumb question but might want to validate that the rifle is in fact, a 7mm Rem Mag.
Is the barrel obstructed now?
If so, nobody is about to re-use the bbl so one could either use a mill to essentially create a "cut-away" bbl exposing the contents, or, decide where the obstruction is, use a cleaning rod and a hammer to drive out the obstruction to whichever end it's closest to.
N O !!!
Send everything to the attorney who will no doubt be handling the young man's case, and log all the chain of custody. DON'T screw around with anything.
Overtightening of a non-factory, replacement barrel is sometimes the cause of a cracked receiver ring on pre64 M70 actions. Have heard that the crack develops between the front of the receiver and the foremost of the two factory d&t holes on the receiver ring which would have been underneath the scope mount on this rifle. Appears to be where this one let go and a scenario that merits consideration.
Looking at the pics.
And what you posted.
The exact area you are talking about forward scope base mount area on top of receiver.
That part of the front receiver is still attatched to the front of the one peice base.
It blew upwards 1st I bet and then the rest happened
In another pic the side of the peeled back receiver has rust in the threads and in other places along that line on its upperside
And the bottom of that area is bright and shiney from newly shreared metal.
Like a puzzle it all fits back together.
I think you might have nailed it dude.
Rifle was a ticking time bomb from a badly installed replacement barrel.
Mentions made in thread of threads and torque also.
Was just a matter of time....
And a guy lost an eye cause of it.
JFC.......
Did the first round land on target? Just wondering.
Could it have been a stuck firing pin? I in my youth had a Montgomery Ward 12 ga pump shotgun and was showing a friend how the shells cycle into the chamber and when I did, there was an explosion that sent material out the side of the chamber and into the ground and also some out the barrel. Turns out the firing pin was partially stuck out and fired the round prematurely.
Let us know what is found out down the line.
With it being a suspect customized rifle.
Federal is more than likely off the hook if that is the case.
Sucks that dude lost an eye.
Possibly due to a job not done right gawd knows how many yrs ago.
JMO....
I would guess there was a crack under the sheared lug. A lot of hot rounds over the years. I would expect the barrel to split if there had been an obstruction.
I agree. It looks to me as the receiver failed as pointed out by spotshooter. I may not be seeing clearly but I see no shearing of the bolt lugs. So...the bottom lug fails but the upper lug holds preventing the bolt from imbedding itself in the shooters face, and that's a positive. But the receiver becomes shrapnel...negative. I could surely be wrong, though.
Good eye. I dont see the 5 but it certainly looks like a 3.
I'm waiting for a picture showing missile contrails.
From what I can tell, that's a pre-64 model... I can see half of the spent case sitting in the chamber.. Barrel appears mostly undamaged - just the receiver blew, right at the area where the base of the case is/was, so I kinda doubt the previous round obstructed the bore or else it would have 'peeled' - as another poster mentioned above.. I'm also thinking it may have been ammo-related and not the rifle..
I'm so sorry to hear of the injuries to the shooter.. Dang..
Wouldn't a pre-'64 Winchester 70 barrel have the rear sight mounted via a dovetailed barrel boss?
After the speculations offered here, and given the region that let loose, I'm guessing maybe a shorter 30 or + caliber round that would chamber but have difficultly running the barrel. Have seen a pic in the past of a 308 round exploding a 270. I've also heard of 30 caliber slug actually making it through a 270, but there was still accompanying damage.
Do put something up please if definitive facts surface.
One thing that doesn't seem quiet right with the rifle is the area where the bolt lug shoulders on the action that is sheared away.
When you close the bolt the bolt lugs are up and down (top & bottom), so I expected to see a bunch of white raw metal where it was sheared away provided that the bolt was closed.
But here I see blue color ? Maybe there was a crack in the lug area that let the bolt move back to where the shell was unsupported and blew.
The area I'm describing is here.
Front action screw too long, file back-side of starboard side lug until it cleared causing the lug to headspace on the front side of the front action screw? When it finally let go it pulls the screw and lug back through the feed ramp?
Prayers for the shooter -
I thought the same - somehow both raceways failed and the bolt lugs passed through then pushed the bolt back, and after which blowing the extractor and brass up it pushed the bolt back until enough case wall was exposed, otherwise it would have stayed up in the front section more, and not blow the scope and rear part of the scope mount base in half. But the bolt lugs are in mostly in tact so one hell of an explosion would be required, but if the lugs held it would have been much more forward than getting back to the scope area.
It would be interesting to look at the sheared off remaining bolt lug race to see if that was carbon or if it was cracked and blueing had gotten into the crack.
The top lug didn’t look to be messed too much compared to how short the bottom lug (right side) is.
Sucks either way, ... I wouldn’t expect this unless you combined a wrong round & a bad bolt race.
Was the action reworked / trued or is it a factory action ?
Again - prayers for the shooter.
sorry to hear about this,hope the young man gets much better too. myself i feel the cause is a poorly installed barrel ,maybe this used barrel was rechambered poorly too ? the barrel threading and the reciever what`s left of it look good ,so was this barrel not really attached /screwed in right ? something just don`t add up ? i don`t think it was the ammo unless some how had a wrong cartridge ? maybe the reciever went thru a fire ? that stock and that barrel are not pre-64 either. i am kinda leaning action/receiver went thru a fire then some garage type gunsmith put a used barrel and a stock and made a rifle with a weak link barrel-reciever and it finally blew apart. very very sad situation with a young man hurt .
Factory ammo?
First thing, he needs the best attorney he can find.
I would not touch that rifle anymore.
Almost like it fire while out of battery.
It appears the entire explosion was from the chamber back.
That was my thoughts too. but I am far from an expert
Non-expert thoughts.
Not caused by wrong case:
Cartridge obviously chambered - so not too long.
A short case would separate, but I'd expect the rear half would seal the chamber and why would the back of the case head blow off unless the locked bolt slipped back.
An over-size bullet would likely bulge or split the barrel.
Can these rifles fire out of battery? and if so, wouldn't the bolt have shot out the back?
Cracked receiver or extreme overcharge seems likely to me.
I cannot begin to determine a cause without close examination if the rifle. Even then, there is some guesswork involved. If there is a lawyer involved, he should contact someone who is experienced in this sort of thing. GD
I wonder if a larger cartridge of the same case family, i.e. 7mm Mag and 338 Mag, was slammed forward by the bolt, would it drive the bullet deeper into the case, allowing the round to be chambered?
7mm mag in a .264? It definitely looks like a custom or semi custom rifle.
Broken firing pin?
Try to slam the bolt home with a protruding firing pin.
A good lawyer will get that rifle examined by a qualified expert.
As someone already posted, don't send the remaining cartridges to the manufacturer; make sure the lawyer gets them examined independently.
I'm gonna say...it's the Leupold.
I've seen lodged rounds. The barrel splits like a peeled banana along the grooves.
Looks like the round discharged out of battery.
I'm gonna say...it's the Leupold.
Thinkin that's covered under the lifetime warranty?
Factory ammo but that case only got less than a full charge of slow burning powder when the charge was dropped. Remember powder in factory ammo is dispensed not weighted. I strongly suspect S.E.E. Some years back there was an article in Handloader Magazine where the writer was able to repeat the detonations.
http://www.africanxmag.com/secondary_explosion_effect.htm#:~:text=Secondary%20Explosion%20Effect%2C%20or%20S.E.E.,burn%20at%20the%20prescribed%20rate.&text=The%20most%20interesting%20call%20was%20from%20a%20powder%20company%20ballistics%20laboratory%20technician.
"Secondary Explosion Effect, or S.E.E. seems to occur when a "slow" powder is used and the powder charge reduced to below 15% of max. This will cause the powder to detonate rather that burn at the prescribed rate."
Those threads are rusty, water seeping in through a crack in the receiver?
A good lawyer will get that rifle examined by a qualified expert.
As someone already posted, don't send the remaining cartridges to the manufacturer; make sure the lawyer gets them examined independently.
This ^^
BE SURE to document the complete chain of custody and don't mess with anything.
A good lawyer will get that rifle examined by a qualified expert.
As someone already posted, don't send the remaining cartridges to the manufacturer; make sure the lawyer gets them examined independently.
Agree, but if the remaining ammo checks out to be in spec, then what ? Lawyer fees and ammo lab test fees. Sure won't do the injured shooter any good, just hope he recovers the best he can. And other than an issue with the ammo, I really doubt a qualified expert would be able to pinpoint the exact cause of the destruction.
I’ve rode this ride, almost exactly to a T except I lost all my front teeth and part of my jawbone instead of an eye.
Details are eerily similar, Pre 64, magnum cartridge, second round out of a new box. Barrel in my case was down range about 20 feet but looked fine aside from the separated case lodged in it. Results looked pretty much identical as well.
Laboratory testing in my case showed that the boutique ammo manufacturer had mistakenly used R15 in place of R25. Lab stated pressures likely in excess of 150k PSI.
Box of ammo purchased. One round had bullet pulled and powder dumped. Powder replaced with C4 and bullet reseated. Return to gun shop. Exchange one round in a box of identical ammo. Trap set by urban terrorist for the next gun owner buying that box of ammo. No individual targeted but the shooting public in general.
A good lawyer will get that rifle examined by a qualified expert.
As someone already posted, don't send the remaining cartridges to the manufacturer; make sure the lawyer gets them examined independently.
Agree, but if the remaining ammo checks out to be in spec, then what ? Lawyer fees and ammo lab test fees. Sure won't do the injured shooter any good, just hope he recovers the best he can. And other than an issue with the ammo, I really doubt a qualified expert would be able to pinpoint the exact cause of the destruction.
Some good (and knowledgeable) lawyers would take a case like on a contingency and advance the costs of testing. So not out of pocket money for the client.
Also, the evidentiary standard in this type of case is "preponderance of the evidence", i.e. that the accident was "more likely than not" caused by the defendant e.g.; the ammo maker, rifle manufacturer, etc.
Another good reason to handload.
Box of ammo purchased. One round had bullet pulled and powder dumped. Powder replaced with C4 and bullet reseated. Return to gun shop. Exchange one round in a box of identical ammo. Trap set by urban terrorist for the next gun owner buying that box of ammo. No individual targeted but the shooting public in general.
Not at all out of the realm of possibility. But most, if not all. shops will not take purchased ammo back. Maybe an exception was made.
A good lawyer will get that rifle examined by a qualified expert.
As someone already posted, don't send the remaining cartridges to the manufacturer; make sure the lawyer gets them examined independently.
Agree, but if the remaining ammo checks out to be in spec, then what ? Lawyer fees and ammo lab test fees. Sure won't do the injured shooter any good, just hope he recovers the best he can. And other than an issue with the ammo, I really doubt a qualified expert would be able to pinpoint the exact cause of the destruction.
Some good (and knowledgeable) lawyers would take a case like on a contingency and advance the costs of testing. So not out of pocket money for the client.
Yes it might work out if the ammo was at fault. Otherwise...
Didn't take it back.. bullet replaced by removing one from a new box on the shelf and switching bullets on the sly.
Jesus... your story and TheKid's story scare the chit out of me. Makes me think twice about my backcountry elk hunts all by my lonesome.
I won't guess on the why, but pre-64s were chambered for 264WM. In those days the 264WM was overbore and a bit of a problem so rebarreling to a much less troublesome 7mm RM wasn't unheard of..
A good lawyer will get that rifle examined by a qualified expert.
As someone already posted, don't send the remaining cartridges to the manufacturer; make sure the lawyer gets them examined independently.
Agree, but if the remaining ammo checks out to be in spec, then what ? Lawyer fees and ammo lab test fees. Sure won't do the injured shooter any good, just hope he recovers the best he can. And other than an issue with the ammo, I really doubt a qualified expert would be able to pinpoint the exact cause of the destruction.
You might be surprised at what a good expert in failure analysis can tell from the pieces. Fracture surfaces, for example, can very quickly tell you whether there was a pre-existing crack, or whether the material was brittle, for example, as well as telling you where the failure started and the direction of propagation.
You can't really tell too much from the photos, but it strikes me that barrel obstruction is unlikely, given what appears to be no damage to the barrel. It would be worth checking though, and if very close to the chamber (in the reinforce) you could see case head failure and damage to the receiver without much external sign on the barrel. You'd almost certainly see evidence inside the barrel though
The receiver ring appears to have lacked ductility, but a really good closeup of the fracture surfaces would tell more, and I do note the plastic deformation of the side rail is not consistent with brittleness - and usually if the receiver ring is brittle the rail will be even more brittle, given the thermodynamics of heat treatment.
Since everyone's throwing a guess in, including some rather odd ones, my first thought is case head failure. This may have been the product of a significant overload, or bad brass, wrong cartridge or even an obstruction near to the chamber. The Model 70's breech design doesn't support the case head, and a case head failure is apt to overstress the receiver ring, as well as seeing the extractor and other parts blown out. Often there are a combination of factors at play too - a case head failure coupled with a receiver perhaps lacking toughness, for example (as was often the case with those low-number Springfields Hatcher wrote about).
It would be an interesting case to take on.
Curious who the lawyers would even go after if it wasn't a factory gun anymore. Unless it was hot ammo, not sure who else would be at fault. Seems like Winchester would be off the hook since the firearm was modified with custom barrel.
Did the magazine have a cartridge in it when explosion occurred?
When and if I get any more information, I will post an update. I know that the young man is now reading this thread, and the family thanks everyone who gave their thoughts. I think they will be taking all the pieces and parts to a competent gunsmith and then probably to an attorney here in Montana.
Thanks everyone.
The pictures show that the explosion destroyed where the barrel screwed to the frame. I would have the metal involved tested to see if it is especially weak.
Dog catcher, even if re-barreled, The rifle maker might still be liable for damages if the action is determined to be defectively designed/manufactured.
Look at the barrel.
It looks undamaged except from the rear closeup.
Obstructed barrels usually peel like a banana.
Kind of weird how the action split, but the barrel inside it didn't seem fazed.
Exactly, an obstruction will cause the barrel to bulge or burst.
The picture of the rear of the barrel shows half the rim of the case. Looks like catastrophic head failure to me. All the gas centered around the lugs and blew the bridge. Have never seen anything like that in 60 years of using and smithing M70's.
The bolt lugs even held though they are battered. My guess is that round got the wrong powder, turning it into a IED.
My heart goes out to the young man. Life changing. Give him my best wishes.
Even if re-barreled, The rifle maker might still be liable for damages if the action is determined to be defectively designed/manufactured.
Pre-64?
It's at a minimum 56 years old.
Defect in design or manufacturing should have been evident long before now.
Very possible. Similar was done to enemy ammo caches in Vietnam. Ask me how I know.
Semper Fi.
Even if re-barreled, The rifle maker might still be liable for damages if the action is determined to be defectively designed/manufactured.
Pre-64?
It's at a minimum 56 years old.
Defect in design or manufacturing should have been evident long before now.
good argument. Doesn't mean it won't get to a jury.
Catastrophic failure (without warning) is a defect.
Even if re-barreled, The rifle maker might still be liable for damages if the action is determined to be defectively designed/manufactured.
Pre-64?
It's at a minimum 56 years old.
Defect in design or manufacturing should have been evident long before now.
good argument. Doesn't mean it won't get to a jury.
Catastrophic failure (without warning) is a defect.
Don't think it would get very far if it could be shown/proved that the rifle was modified or customized .
Very possible. Similar was done to enemy ammo caches in Vietnam. Ask me how I know.
Semper Fi.
Dog catcher, even if re-barreled, The rifle maker might still be liable for damages if the action is determined to be defectively designed/manufactured.
After a bankruptcy and multiple owners, that would take one hell of an attorney.
Even if re-barreled, The rifle maker might still be liable for damages if the action is determined to be defectively designed/manufactured.
Pre-64?
It's at a minimum 56 years old.
Defect in design or manufacturing should have been evident long before now.
good argument. Doesn't mean it won't get to a jury.
Catastrophic failure (without warning) is a defect.
Were I on the jury, be real hard to convince me that something made it 56+ years, rebarreled, shot and now there was a design or workmanship defect Winchester is liable for.
Bout impossible actually.
Sorry for the young man but pinning it on Winchester after a person of unknown skill put a barrel on it - probably not the ox that needs goring.
It's amazing what one can see when looking at a part using a STEM...
Is the barrel obstructed now?
If so, nobody is about to re-use the bbl so one could either use a mill to essentially create a "cut-away" bbl exposing the contents, or, decide where the obstruction is, use a cleaning rod and a hammer to drive out the obstruction to whichever end it's closest to.
N O !!!
Send everything to the attorney who will no doubt be handling the young man's case, and log all the chain of custody. DON'T screw around with anything.
Me thinks the OP is the attorney or investigator.
Dog catcher, even if re-barreled, The rifle maker might still be liable for damages if the action is determined to be defectively designed/manufactured.
After a bankruptcy and multiple owners, that would take one hell of an attorney.
No one knows what happened - that's why I said "rifle maker" not "Winchester".
My point was that notwithstanding manufacturer's warnings to the contrary, the mere fact that someone modifies a firearm or uses hand-loads doesn't
automatically absolve a manufacturer of liability for a defective product.
The injured man should certainly have the rifle and ammo examined by experts.
When and if I get any more information, I will post an update. I know that the young man is now reading this thread, and the family thanks everyone who gave their thoughts. I think they will be taking all the pieces and parts to a competent gunsmith and then probably to an attorney here in Montana.
Thanks everyone.
Failure investigation is not likely to be within the expertise of most gunsmiths, even really competent ones. It is a bit specialised.
You'd be better off talking with a consultant in the field of failure investigation, with expertise in firearms and qualifications in metallurgy or a related field.
FWIW I used to do this, though not in your country.
Very possible. Similar was done to enemy ammo caches in Vietnam. Ask me how I know.
Semper Fi.
Project Eldest Son, Italian Green & Pole Bean
I’m going with a cracked receiver, you can see where the action peeled back perfectly and you would never see the crack it would be below the wood line.. probably started off as small crack got progressively worse unfortunately she gave up the ghost and this young man paid the price..
I put two red arrows that show were it could of been cracked. I’m going with the lower red arrow..
![[Linked Image]]( https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/gallery/80/full/146815.jpeg)
Almost all blow ups that curl back metal had a bigger than the bore bullet in the mix.
Is the barrel plugged ? (Bullet in it)
Almost all blow ups that curl back metal had a bigger than the bore bullet in the mix.
Is the barrel plugged ? (Bullet in it)
You can see the first fired case and the 3rd round the second case is stuck in the chamber. Unless someone stuck a 338 win mag in that box doubt it was ammo problem.. Reason no way in hell he get the bolt closed with a 338 in the chamber.. 300 win mag wouldn’t even chamber..
![[Linked Image]]( https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/gallery/80/full/146625.jpg)
I’d would guess the round causing the blow-up was a 30/06.
I am too stupid to post pics but I had the same thing happen to me on a pre-64 action custom rifle by a well known maker. His ammo as well. Action looks very similar and my barrel was down range but in great shape. Checked the remaining ammo and it all checked out. It was my third shot of a range session. First one right where it was aimed. Next shot off a hair right and I decided to fire a third to verify and boom explosion. Very loud when a gun blows up. Cartridge was a 257 wby mag. I had eye protection but still had major facial injuries and an eye surgery to remove foreign material from my eye. Came to on the floor in the corner of the shooting house. Sorry for your friend. It made me nervous for months afterwards to shoot and when other people shot. I would find myself backing up. I will send pictures to anyone interested by text. Then you can post them up. Just PM me.
I am too stupid to post pics but I had the same thing happen to me on a pre-64 action custom rifle by a well known maker. His ammo as well. Action looks very similar and my barrel was down range but in great shape. Checked the remaining ammo and it all checked out. It was my third shot of a range session. First one right where it was aimed. Next shot off a hair right and I decided to fire a third to verify and boom explosion. Very loud when a gun blows up. Cartridge was a 257 wby mag. I had eye protection but still had major facial injuries and an eye surgery to remove foreign material from my eye. Came to on the floor in the corner of the shooting house. Sorry for your friend. It made me nervous for months afterwards to shoot and when other people shot. I would find myself backing up. I will send pictures to anyone interested by text. Then you can post them up. Just PM me.
What was the verdict on why it blew up?
I know the 1969 Field and Stream guys will have a fit, but there is nothing special about that rifle...other than Field and Stream. Something's never change.
I am too stupid to post pics but I had the same thing happen to me on a pre-64 action custom rifle by a well known maker. His ammo as well. Action looks very similar and my barrel was down range but in great shape. Checked the remaining ammo and it all checked out. It was my third shot of a range session. First one right where it was aimed. Next shot off a hair right and I decided to fire a third to verify and boom explosion. Very loud when a gun blows up. Cartridge was a 257 wby mag. I had eye protection but still had major facial injuries and an eye surgery to remove foreign material from my eye. Came to on the floor in the corner of the shooting house. Sorry for your friend. It made me nervous for months afterwards to shoot and when other people shot. I would find myself backing up. I will send pictures to anyone interested by text. Then you can post them up. Just PM me.
What was the verdict on why it blew up?
Never came up with one unfortunately.
A new rifle was built to replace this one for no charge and I moved on. Medical bills were supposed to be paid as well but weren’t. I finally decided to just move on. I am in the firearms business myself though retail and suing the gentlemen just never sat right with me. Maybe it was no fault of his. We will never know.
Thank you 79S for posting those.
Leupold will replace the scope
Yes leupold did replace the scope without any hesitation.
Thats not a Pre-64 serial number. Plus, the fourth picture back showing the separation of the receiver ring just above the recoil lug looks like a mighty brittle fracture--no bending or twisting. I have no clue what the cause was, only these two observations.
Is it possible there was a reload inserted into the factory ammo box? Sabotage isn't unheard of. Did somebody else in the family, that doesn't like him, get jealous because he got the rifle?
It was Professor Plum in the dining room with the candlestick...
I am too stupid to post pics but I had the same thing happen to me on a pre-64 action custom rifle by a well known maker. His ammo as well. Action looks very similar and my barrel was down range but in great shape. Checked the remaining ammo and it all checked out. It was my third shot of a range session. First one right where it was aimed. Next shot off a hair right and I decided to fire a third to verify and boom explosion. Very loud when a gun blows up. Cartridge was a 257 wby mag. I had eye protection but still had major facial injuries and an eye surgery to remove foreign material from my eye. Came to on the floor in the corner of the shooting house. Sorry for your friend. It made me nervous for months afterwards to shoot and when other people shot. I would find myself backing up. I will send pictures to anyone interested by text. Then you can post them up. Just PM me.
You sure yours was a "pre 64 model 70"? From what I saw in the pics John just uploaded, that was a 6 digit classic.
Thats not a Pre-64 serial number. Plus, the fourth picture back showing the separation of the receiver ring just above the recoil lug looks like a mighty brittle fracture--no bending or twisting. I have no clue what the cause was, only these two observations.
I agree with you
It’s gotta be a classic since it has a G prefix.
This was copied from The High Road....
When Winchester started producing the Classics, they went ahead and started using up all those unused "G" prefix numbers before G899XXX, or whatever. Then they had to jump over previously used "G" prefixes, which is where the Classics then resume at around G240XXXX. This results in a lot of confusion, particularly among those who ignore the "G" prefix when looking up dates of manufacture. I personally own a Classic, which is a G10XXX, and manufactured in 1996, but it is a Custom Shop rifle, so the serial number is no doubt out of sync, since the Custom Shop may have had their own serial number ranges. So this only adds further to the confusion, since Winchester production grade rifles surely had progressed far beyond G10XXX by 1996, since they started manufacturing the Classic Super Grade in 1990, the Classic Featherweight in 1992, and the Classic Sporter in 1994.
Thats not a Pre-64 serial number. Plus, the fourth picture back showing the separation of the receiver ring just above the recoil lug looks like a mighty brittle fracture--no bending or twisting. I have no clue what the cause was, only these two observations.
I agree with you
It’s gotta be a classic since it has a G prefix.
This was copied from The High Road....
When Winchester started producing the Classics, they went ahead and started using up all those unused "G" prefix numbers before G899XXX, or whatever. Then they had to jump over previously used "G" prefixes, which is where the Classics then resume at around G240XXXX. This results in a lot of confusion, particularly among those who ignore the "G" prefix when looking up dates of manufacture. I personally own a Classic, which is a G10XXX, and manufactured in 1996, but it is a Custom Shop rifle, so the serial number is no doubt out of sync, since the Custom Shop may have had their own serial number ranges. So this only adds further to the confusion, since Winchester production grade rifles surely had progressed far beyond G10XXX by 1996, since they started manufacturing the Classic Super Grade in 1990, the Classic Featherweight in 1992, and the Classic Sporter in 1994.
Whoever wrote that on the high road screwed it all up.. Any 5 digit with a SN from 10xxx to 40xxx was made in 92. Prior to this any model 70 with a 4 digit SN were all custom shop rifles. Winchester went clear to SN G380xxx then in 2002 they switched back to the 7 digit SN to coincide with the push feed model 70’s SN that still used the 7 digit SN, they also stopped using classic moniker as well. This was done on Winchester’s part to simplify the SN process.
I am too stupid to post pics but I had the same thing happen to me on a pre-64 action custom rifle by a well known maker. His ammo as well. Action looks very similar and my barrel was down range but in great shape. Checked the remaining ammo and it all checked out. It was my third shot of a range session. First one right where it was aimed. Next shot off a hair right and I decided to fire a third to verify and boom explosion. Very loud when a gun blows up. Cartridge was a 257 wby mag. I had eye protection but still had major facial injuries and an eye surgery to remove foreign material from my eye. Came to on the floor in the corner of the shooting house. Sorry for your friend. It made me nervous for months afterwards to shoot and when other people shot. I would find myself backing up. I will send pictures to anyone interested by text. Then you can post them up. Just PM me.
You sure yours was a "pre 64 model 70"? From what I saw in the pics John just uploaded, that was a 6 digit classic.
It’s definitely a 6 digit classic. By all accounts by some it’s one of the good ones. Some out their consider any classic with a sn after G350xxx to be inferior lol.
Would need some really good and clear pictures of the fracture surfaces of that action and the top of the receiver. Some nice hi res close-ups. I used to do a bit of failure analysis in a previous life. This one is interesting, but it’s tough to really tell the sequence of events from the pics thus far.
79S, Thanks. Winchester serialization is an art unto itself. I’m sure many PhD’s could be earned by doing dissertations on Winchester serial numbers and the various anomalies.
First and foremost, many thanks to the young, injured Marine for his service and prayers sent for his speedy recovery.
I would be the first to tell you that I am no expert, but I would be surprised if the Federal Premium ammunition was the culprit. I've always regarded Federal Premium as high-quality ammunition and I've always had good luck with it. However, it's certainly within the realm of possibilities that a mistake was made somewhere along the line during manufacturing, but I doubt it. Now if this was Remington ammunition, I'd have no trouble at all believing it.
Several good theories have been proffered here. IMO, the three most likely scenarios, in no particular order, are 1) the fatigue crack below the wood line that eventually gave way and caused the catastrophic failure, 2) which I think might be more likely is sabotage, especially in this day and age of waked-out, deranged Marxists freely roaming the country with impunity, and 3) an incorrect cartridge was chambered.
Personally, whenever I purchase factory ammunition, I always fully inspect every cartridge, and I briefly inspect it again before loading. I also wear shooting glasses, though not all the time - I will correct that lapse.
Again, I wish the young Marine a speedy recovery. Hopefully, the eye he lost was not his dominant one.
has this happen to a Ruger 77 in 223....
black hills ammo... I returned most of the left over rounds to them..
they sent me a coupon worth one box of replacement ammo, and never heard from them again...
no apologies, no nothing...I don't do business with them period...
factory ammo is loaded on assembly line production equipment...
something had to screw up at the factory... I'm figuring on mine, one case was over charged, by a fair amount...
mine was supposed to be a 55 gr SP and 25 grains of H 335... it blew the gun and stock apart...
had to fix the bolt, rechamber the barrel, the stock was destroyed...
thank God my instance was a 223 instead of a 7 Mag... this is another reason I prefer to load my own ammo...
just like someone else's handloads, you never know what you are really getting... accidents occur...
if something goes wrong I'd rather blame it on myself, knowingly...
I sure hope the young marine recovers as much as possible... condolences to him and his family/ loved ones for his loss of his eye...
From the looks of the explosion, I'd say the shooter more than likely forced the cartridge into the chamber after a mis-alignment and the bullet was pushed back into the cartridge case before being fired.
I seriously doubt it was the gun's fault, as many here have speculated.
I have a really hard time understanding how a case failure causes a catastrophe like this. I would have to believe that a heat treated steel receiver and locked breach is dependent upon a thin piece of BRASS in order to maintain its structural form...unless I'm just overlooking some important aspect of it all, and if I am I'd sure like to be educated. Sincerely.
From what I can tell, that's a pre-64 model... I can see half of the spent case sitting in the chamber.. Barrel appears mostly undamaged - just the receiver blew, right at the area where the base of the case is/was, so I kinda doubt the previous round obstructed the bore or else it would have 'peeled' - as another poster mentioned above.. I'm also thinking it may have been ammo-related and not the rifle..
I'm so sorry to hear of the injuries to the shooter.. Dang..
I agree the action kind of looks like a pre-64 but the barrel does not. That and I'm pretty certain 7mm Rem Mags were never offered in the pre-64s Model 70s.
OP... any details on when and if the rifle has been recently re-barreled? Any other recent work done to it?
PRe-64s were not made in 7 mag, so it if was a pre-64 action, it was a re-barrel.
A new rifle was built to replace this one for no charge and I moved on. Medical bills were supposed to be paid as well but weren’t. I finally decided to just move on. I am in the firearms business myself though retail and suing the gentlemen just never sat right with me. Maybe it was no fault of his. We will never know.
I'm curious.
The guy ageed to pay your medical bills but then welched on the deal and you didn't sue him because you were both in the gun business? The guy's in the gumaking business and doesn't have liability insurance?
No one determined what caused the blow up? That's important in order to prevent other blow ups, like just maybe the one that cost the young marine his eye.
Could it be that there is a whole series of Winchester actions that were not adequately heat treated at some time?
From what I can tell, that's a pre-64 model... I can see half of the spent case sitting in the chamber.. Barrel appears mostly undamaged - just the receiver blew, right at the area where the base of the case is/was, so I kinda doubt the previous round obstructed the bore or else it would have 'peeled' - as another poster mentioned above.. I'm also thinking it may have been ammo-related and not the rifle..
I'm so sorry to hear of the injuries to the shooter.. Dang..
Wouldn't a pre-'64 Winchester 70 barrel have the rear sight mounted via a dovetailed barrel boss?
The
action's a pre-64 - not the barrel, or it wouldn't be a 7mmm RM...
I am too stupid to post pics but I had the same thing happen to me on a pre-64 action custom rifle by a well known maker. His ammo as well. Action looks very similar and my barrel was down range but in great shape. Checked the remaining ammo and it all checked out. It was my third shot of a range session. First one right where it was aimed. Next shot off a hair right and I decided to fire a third to verify and boom explosion. Very loud when a gun blows up. Cartridge was a 257 wby mag. I had eye protection but still had major facial injuries and an eye surgery to remove foreign material from my eye. Came to on the floor in the corner of the shooting house. Sorry for your friend. It made me nervous for months afterwards to shoot and when other people shot. I would find myself backing up. I will send pictures to anyone interested by text. Then you can post them up. Just PM me.
The common theme with the M70’s being discussed here is that they are all custom, re-barreled guns. Has anyone experienced a similar failure with an unmodified M70?
In my experience, failures occur at the point of greatest pressure and least resistance. In the case of an obstructed bore, this is typically immediately behind the obstruction.
If a chamber is obstructed at the throat (over bore projectile from incorrect cartridge), the over pressure will occur in the chamber area and take the path of least resistance.
Best advice has been given: Consult legal assistance and have qualified experts examine the evidence.
Prayers for the young man.
Additionally - I love the level of experience of some on this site.
![[Linked Image]](https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/gallery/80/full/146842.jpg)
Enlarging and color correcting..
Obstructed bores at the muzzle make the barrel peel like a banana, but obstructed in front of the chamber may not.
Could it be that there is a whole series of Winchester actions that were not adequately heat treated at some time?
Sounds like the example actions in this thread run across 30-40 years of manufacturing. Three of the four examples involved pre-64s, two of which were rebarreled and one was confirmed wrong powder causing pressure to spike in excess of 150k PSI. ShootAI's example involved a late 90s Classic action. That was a mauser / pre-64 style action but made ~30 years later than the true "pre-64" variants.
I am too stupid to post pics but I had the same thing happen to me on a pre-64 action custom rifle by a well known maker. His ammo as well. Action looks very similar and my barrel was down range but in great shape. Checked the remaining ammo and it all checked out. It was my third shot of a range session. First one right where it was aimed. Next shot off a hair right and I decided to fire a third to verify and boom explosion. Very loud when a gun blows up. Cartridge was a 257 wby mag. I had eye protection but still had major facial injuries and an eye surgery to remove foreign material from my eye. Came to on the floor in the corner of the shooting house. Sorry for your friend. It made me nervous for months afterwards to shoot and when other people shot. I would find myself backing up. I will send pictures to anyone interested by text. Then you can post them up. Just PM me.
The common theme with the M70’s being discussed here is that they are all custom, re-barreled guns. Has anyone experienced a similar failure with an unmodified M70?
Yeah... whenever analyzing something that failed and which has a history of not failing, the first question that should be asked is what changed.
.... and the bullet was pushed back into the cartridge case before being fired...
Which should lessen the pressure, right?
Question. I don't own any magnum rifles, but would one of the short magnums popular now fit in a 7MM RM chamber? I know a .308W will easily chamber up in a .270W, because my favorite gunsmith had one delivered to him that had been fired at a drunken new years eve celebration. Actually the bullet swaged down the barrel and got out. Probably would not have in a .26-06.
.... and the bullet was pushed back into the cartridge case before being fired...
Which should lessen the pressure, right?
No, it would spike...lesser case volume.
Saw similar pics at an LGS years ago. The shooter fired a 7mmRemMag cartridge in a 270 WBY rifle. UGLY!
Hoping the shooter in this case makes a recovery.
Myman04: I am saddened to the point of nausea over this incident/accident!
I just feel terrible over the loss of that young mans eye!
It is a stark reminder FOR ME to always wear my Zeiss shooting glasses when firing my Rifles and pistols.
Although with the severity of this detonation/explosion it may have harmed his eye anyway even if he had "shooting glasses" on.
My lifelong friend from Enumclaw, Washington was at the range last week sighting in his new Kimber Rifle in 257 Roberts - somehow in amongst his handloaded ammo came a 220 Swift cartridge and it went off but sounded/felt funny.
He is still bewildered how one of his handloaded 220 Swift rounds got in with his handloaded 257 Roberts rounds!
Luckily for him no harm was done to him or his new Rifle.
We are ALL human and are ALL subject to human error so extra care must be taken whenever we are using our firearms.
But I am also at a loss to explain the young mans Rifle's detonation - it will be interesting to learn the results of the ammunition inspection/analysis.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
Dog catcher, even if re-barreled, The rifle maker might still be liable for damages if the action is determined to be defectively designed/manufactured.
After a bankruptcy and multiple owners, that would take one hell of an attorney.
No one knows what happened - that's why I said "rifle maker" not "Winchester".
My point was that notwithstanding manufacturer's warnings to the contrary, the mere fact that someone modifies a firearm or uses hand-loads doesn't
automatically absolve a manufacturer of liability for a defective product.
The injured man should certainly have the rifle and ammo examined by experts.
“ if the action is determined to be defectively designed/manufactured”
So, who would this be if not Winchester? The smith certainly didn’t design or manufacture the action.
Like a few other have mentioned, if the problem had been a obstructed barrel then the barrel itself would have split. Also its very unlikely barrel was obstructed if the previous round fired ok.
That leaves a ammo mixup or a previously damaged action.
I took a guy elk hunting last year that missed two 75yd shots at a elk, shooting from a rest on a log. Both shots hit way high as I saw the 2nd one hit the mountainside behind the elk. Found out he was shooting 7mag ammo in his 300mag. Easy mixup as when he grabbed 4 boxes of Federal Fusion ammo off the shelf there was one box of 7mag mixed it and he never looked close, then the morning we went hunting he grabbed the wrong box. He and another friend found the mixup when going out the next day to check sight in and he shot a couple more before the mistake was discovered.
I can see where different ammo could easily get mixed up in the same box either intentionally or by accident.
Dog catcher, even if re-barreled, The rifle maker might still be liable for damages if the action is determined to be defectively designed/manufactured.
After a bankruptcy and multiple owners, that would take one hell of an attorney.
No one knows what happened - that's why I said "rifle maker" not "Winchester".
My point was that notwithstanding manufacturer's warnings to the contrary, the mere fact that someone modifies a firearm or uses hand-loads doesn't
automatically absolve a manufacturer of liability for a defective product.
The injured man should certainly have the rifle and ammo examined by experts.
“ if the action is determined to be defectively designed/manufactured”
So, who would this be if not Winchester? The smith certainly didn’t design or manufacture the action.
Winchester doesn’t exist anymore.
It’s probably too late but If you do intend to have the metallurgy investigated don’t touch the pieces together by seeing how they match up.
I check the headstamp on every cartridge that I load, in every gun, ALL of the time.
After a bankruptcy and multiple owners, that would take one hell of an attorney.
Winchester doesn’t exist anymore.
My point.
I don't have anything to add as to why the rifle exploded, but it sure is a good reminder to wear shooting glasses. And they do work. I saw a gunner in Afghanistan who caught a bullet right between the eyes - it went through his eye-pro frame but just embedded in the skin above his nose and did not penetrate his skull (I think the bullet may have been a ricochet or came from a long distance). I also saw an insurgent bomb-maker who had a low-order detonation of the bomb he was making. He was captured and brought to a US field surgical team. They took a lot of metal out of his face and elsewhere, but he was smart and was actually wearing ballistic eyewear (same Oakley's that were issued to US troops) and he had no damage to his eyes or the areas of his face protected by those Oakley's. Made me a believer.
Question. I don't own any magnum rifles, but would one of the short magnums popular now fit in a 7MM RM chamber? I know a .308W will easily chamber up in a .270W, because my favorite gunsmith had one delivered to him that had been fired at a drunken new years eve celebration. Actually the bullet swaged down the barrel and got out. Probably would not have in a .26-06.
There were some articles on 270’s being fired in 7 RM chambers because they look very close to the 7RM and will feed, plus the OAL is close so with longer throats on a RM they will chamber. the 270 result in the case rupture that blows back powder & brass to the shooter but the rifle typically survives because the bullet can pass through. If that was done with a hard bullet in a 280 or 30-06 it can’t pass into the barrel. You can google 270 in a 7 Rem Mag and find them.
I’m not saying that’s what happened, but the 270 in a 7RM has happened to others, either way it’s a tragedy that happened to this young man, God Bless.
Enlarging and color correcting..
Obstructed bores at the muzzle make the barrel peel like a banana, but obstructed in front of the chamber may not.
I'd really like to see a closer picture of what remains of that head stamp and in higher resolution. As others have pointed it out, it looks like there might be some discernable stamping on it.
I check the headstamp on every cartridge that I load, in every gun, ALL of the time.
ya i was just going to say the same thing. this comes from having a 243, 260, 308, 7/08, 338 fed and a 358 as well as a 270 and a 30/06 and 25, 30 and 32 remingtons.
When and if I get any more information, I will post an update. I know that the young man is now reading this thread, and the family thanks everyone who gave their thoughts. I think they will be taking all the pieces and parts to a competent gunsmith and then probably to an attorney here in Montana.
Thanks everyone.
Are you his attorney?
Why can't this young man make an account on this forum and answer some of the questions posed?
Is the bore or chamber currently obstructed?
Can we see the headstamp of the fired round when the action gave up the ghost?
When and if I get any more information, I will post an update. I know that the young man is now reading this thread, and the family thanks everyone who gave their thoughts. I think they will be taking all the pieces and parts to a competent gunsmith and then probably to an attorney here in Montana.
Thanks everyone.
Are you his attorney?
Why can't this young man make an account on this forum and answer some of the questions posed?
Is the bore or chamber currently obstructed?
Can we see the headstamp of the fired round when the action gave up the ghost?
Have you read majority of these posts? I sure in the ph uck wouldn’t create an account to tell this tale. Ph uck already have half guys theorizing it was disgruntled family member possibly an eco terrorist sabotaging ammo at the local gun shop. Now you want to see the headstamp of fired case when the gun blew up? Well that case still stuck in the chamber and their is no more headstamp..
Question. I don't own any magnum rifles, but would one of the short magnums popular now fit in a 7MM RM chamber? I know a .308W will easily chamber up in a .270W, because my favorite gunsmith had one delivered to him that had been fired at a drunken new years eve celebration. Actually the bullet swaged down the barrel and got out. Probably would not have in a .26-06.
There were some articles on 270’s being fired in 7 RM chambers because they look very close to the 7RM and will feed, plus the OAL is close so with longer throats on a RM they will chamber. the 270 result in the case rupture that blows back powder & brass to the shooter but the rifle typically survives because the bullet can pass through. If that was done with a hard bullet in a 280 or 30-06 it can’t pass into the barrel. You can google 270 in a 7 Rem Mag and find them.
I’m not saying that’s what happened, but the 270 in a 7RM has happened to others, either way it’s a tragedy that happened to this young man, God Bless.
I’ve fired a 270 in a 7Rem mag. Savage 110. Case rupture, brass into the magazine area, a bit of gas to the cheek, bullet left the barrel, no biggie, really.
Only one type of ammo on the bench since then, and shooting glasses, always.
Factory ammo but that case only got less than a full charge of slow burning powder when the charge was dropped. Remember powder in factory ammo is dispensed not weighted. I strongly suspect S.E.E. Some years back there was an article in Handloader Magazine where the writer was able to repeat the detonations.
http://www.africanxmag.com/secondary_explosion_effect.htm#:~:text=Secondary%20Explosion%20Effect%2C%20or%20S.E.E.,burn%20at%20the%20prescribed%20rate.&text=The%20most%20interesting%20call%20was%20from%20a%20powder%20company%20ballistics%20laboratory%20technician.
"Secondary Explosion Effect, or S.E.E. seems to occur when a "slow" powder is used and the powder charge reduced to below 15% of max. This will cause the powder to detonate rather that burn at the prescribed rate."
That was what came to my mind as well. IIRC, two cartridges were notorious for the S.E.E. problem, the .243 and the 7MM Rem. Mag. in the fact that there were more instances of S.E.E occurring with those two than any other cartridges.
Paul B.
When and if I get any more information, I will post an update. I know that the young man is now reading this thread, and the family thanks everyone who gave their thoughts. I think they will be taking all the pieces and parts to a competent gunsmith and then probably to an attorney here in Montana.
Thanks everyone.
Are you his attorney?
Why can't this young man make an account on this forum and answer some of the questions posed?
Is the bore or chamber currently obstructed?
Can we see the headstamp of the fired round when the action gave up the ghost?
Have you read majority of these posts? I sure in the ph uck wouldn’t create an account to tell this tale. Ph uck already have half guys theorizing it was disgruntled family member possibly an eco terrorist sabotaging ammo at the local gun shop. Now you want to see the headstamp of fired case when the gun blew up? Well that case still stuck in the chamber and their is no more headstamp..
You wouldn't necessarily need to see the entire headstamp and if you zoom in on the picture of the chamber supplied by the OP, it does appear there may be some stamping still visible on what's left of the case head. The resolution is not sufficient enough to tell. If there is a number or a letter present that is not in the 7mm Rem Mag headstamp, that could explain it. If the stamping indicates 7mm Rem Mag, that rules out some possibilities, namely that he picked up the wrong cartridge from another source.
That said, I certainly understand why they'd be hesitant to share any more details.
Question. I don't own any magnum rifles, but would one of the short magnums popular now fit in a 7MM RM chamber? I know a .308W will easily chamber up in a .270W, because my favorite gunsmith had one delivered to him that had been fired at a drunken new years eve celebration. Actually the bullet swaged down the barrel and got out. Probably would not have in a .26-06.
There were some articles on 270’s being fired in 7 RM chambers because they look very close to the 7RM and will feed, plus the OAL is close so with longer throats on a RM they will chamber. the 270 result in the case rupture that blows back powder & brass to the shooter but the rifle typically survives because the bullet can pass through. If that was done with a hard bullet in a 280 or 30-06 it can’t pass into the barrel. You can google 270 in a 7 Rem Mag and find them.
I’m not saying that’s what happened, but the 270 in a 7RM has happened to others, either way it’s a tragedy that happened to this young man, God Bless.
I was thinking along the lines of .300 or .325 short magnum and maybe it could chamber up without the bullet extending into the neck area of the chamber but obviously being too large for the bore and with a magnum charge of powder behind it. People do pilfer around in ammo boxes at stores. One time at a Walmart I was looking inside a box of some high priced premium ammo to see what the bullets looked like and I found Remington Core Lokt.
Just to address some of the theories, I'll post a little more. The only oversized cartridge likely to fit into and be fired in a 7mm Rem Mag would be the 350 Remington Magnum. This could, conceivably, cause the pictured blowup. I have seen the result of a 308 Norma mag fired in a 7 STW and it was not this severe. It was not in a Winchester though. It was in a Remington 700 which is undoubtedly stronger and handles extreme pressures better.
The fractures appear to have occured along the top line of the locking lug raceway. This is common and is often the result of the receiver having been stressed by the improper use of an inside wrench. It cab also be the result of fatigue along a sharp corner which concentrates stress parallel to the granular structure of the steel. I have never seen a Winchester receiver split from a too-tight barrel thread but have seen this occur on Eddystone M17's.
The second rifle shown is not a pre-64 and, on these rifles, the locking lug raceway is cut right on through the threaded receiver ring. Again, the creates a stress riser or concentration point in the receiver ring. Fracture can occur if an inside wrench is used to remove the factory barrel. I have seen this a lot on Swedish Mauser rifles (96's) and have also seen it on Brno ZG 47's.
I have tested some actions to destruction and the barrel is usually damaged or swelled to some extent. This is especially true of older barrels not made of 4140. Often, the carbon manganese barrel will fail before the action does, depending on the load. An oversized bullet will usually not swell the barrel but the pressure behind it might. I have examined a long list of overloaded and blown up rifles and, as I said, it is impossible to make a determination from pictures over the internet. Also, witness or victim input is often unreliable simply due to the psychological stress of the occurrence. GD
When and if I get any more information, I will post an update. I know that the young man is now reading this thread, and the family thanks everyone who gave their thoughts. I think they will be taking all the pieces and parts to a competent gunsmith and then probably to an attorney here in Montana.
Thanks everyone.
Are you his attorney?
Why can't this young man make an account on this forum and answer some of the questions posed?
Is the bore or chamber currently obstructed?
Can we see the headstamp of the fired round when the action gave up the ghost?
Have you read majority of these posts? I sure in the ph uck wouldn’t create an account to tell this tale. Ph uck already have half guys theorizing it was disgruntled family member possibly an eco terrorist sabotaging ammo at the local gun shop. Now you want to see the headstamp of fired case when the gun blew up? Well that case still stuck in the chamber and their is no more headstamp..
You wouldn't necessarily need to see the entire headstamp and if you zoom in on the picture of the chamber supplied by the OP, it does appear there may be some stamping still visible on what's left of the case head. The resolution is not sufficient enough to tell. If there is a number or a letter present that is not in the 7mm Rem Mag headstamp, that could explain it. If the stamping indicates 7mm Rem Mag, that rules out some possibilities, namely that he picked up the wrong cartridge from another source.
That said, I certainly understand why they'd be hesitant to share any more details.
Horatio Caine you might be onto to something! Everyone to the CSI crime lab now!
When and if I get any more information, I will post an update. I know that the young man is now reading this thread, and the family thanks everyone who gave their thoughts. I think they will be taking all the pieces and parts to a competent gunsmith and then probably to an attorney here in Montana.
Thanks everyone.
Are you his attorney?
Why can't this young man make an account on this forum and answer some of the questions posed?
Is the bore or chamber currently obstructed?
Can we see the headstamp of the fired round when the action gave up the ghost?
Have you read majority of these posts? I sure in the ph uck wouldn’t create an account to tell this tale. Ph uck already have half guys theorizing it was disgruntled family member possibly an eco terrorist sabotaging ammo at the local gun shop. Now you want to see the headstamp of fired case when the gun blew up? Well that case still stuck in the chamber and their is no more headstamp..
You wouldn't necessarily need to see the entire headstamp and if you zoom in on the picture of the chamber supplied by the OP, it does appear there may be some stamping still visible on what's left of the case head. The resolution is not sufficient enough to tell. If there is a number or a letter present that is not in the 7mm Rem Mag headstamp, that could explain it. If the stamping indicates 7mm Rem Mag, that rules out some possibilities, namely that he picked up the wrong cartridge from another source.
That said, I certainly understand why they'd be hesitant to share any more details.
Horatio Caine you might be onto to something! Everyone to the CSI crime lab now!
lol... right, says the guy posting pictures with arrows and chit drawn all over them.
Settle down chief.... my only point is the answer might be right in front us. The OP came here, to an internet forum, asking for opinions and people just want to help. That and I think most would like to learn from and avoid the same mishap if possible.
Still no proof of a missile strike?
Poor deportment to open a box of ammo in a store for any reason (or for that matter open any box of ammo that doesn’t belong to you).
Poor deportment to open a box of ammo in a store for any reason (or for that matter open any box of ammo that doesn’t belong to you).
If you are going to buy the ammo it might be a good idea to make sure there hasn't been a switcharoo like the cheap Core Lock I found in the premium ammo box. But you are right, maybe I shouldn't have been nosing around to see what it looked like.
Still no proof of a missile strike?
HAHA
When and if I get any more information, I will post an update. I know that the young man is now reading this thread, and the family thanks everyone who gave their thoughts. I think they will be taking all the pieces and parts to a competent gunsmith and then probably to an attorney here in Montana.
Thanks everyone.
Are you his attorney?
Why can't this young man make an account on this forum and answer some of the questions posed?
Is the bore or chamber currently obstructed?
Can we see the headstamp of the fired round when the action gave up the ghost?
Have you read majority of these posts? I sure in the ph uck wouldn’t create an account to tell this tale. Ph uck already have half guys theorizing it was disgruntled family member possibly an eco terrorist sabotaging ammo at the local gun shop. Now you want to see the headstamp of fired case when the gun blew up? Well that case still stuck in the chamber and their is no more headstamp..
You wouldn't necessarily need to see the entire headstamp and if you zoom in on the picture of the chamber supplied by the OP, it does appear there may be some stamping still visible on what's left of the case head. The resolution is not sufficient enough to tell. If there is a number or a letter present that is not in the 7mm Rem Mag headstamp, that could explain it. If the stamping indicates 7mm Rem Mag, that rules out some possibilities, namely that he picked up the wrong cartridge from another source.
That said, I certainly understand why they'd be hesitant to share any more details.
Horatio Caine you might be onto to something! Everyone to the CSI crime lab now!
lol... right, says the guy posting pictures with arrows and chit drawn all over them.
Settle down chief.... my only point is the answer might be right in front us. The OP came here, to an internet forum, asking for opinions and people just want to help. That and I think most would like to learn from and avoid the same mishap if possible.
Yeah I’m saying along with others that the action was cracked when grandpas gunsmith back in the 70’s screwed that barrel on.. that’s part of the conversation is lost with majority on here. That is not a factory rifle, only thing commercial about that thing is the Winchester action.
I’m going with a cracked receiver, you can see where the action peeled back perfectly and you would never see the crack it would be below the wood line.. probably started off as small crack got progressively worse unfortunately she gave up the ghost and this young man paid the price..
I put two red arrows that show were it could of been cracked. I’m going with the lower red arrow..
Riveting analysis. Glad you discovered where it came apart and the arrows make it abundantly clear.
I’m going with a cracked receiver, you can see where the action peeled back perfectly and you would never see the crack it would be below the wood line.. probably started off as small crack got progressively worse unfortunately she gave up the ghost and this young man paid the price..
I put two red arrows that show were it could of been cracked. I’m going with the lower red arrow..
Riveting analysis. Glad you discovered where it came apart and the arrows make it abundantly clear.
I made it easy for retards like you to see..
Oh let’s look at your groundbreaking analysis
Yeah... or some dick in the store may have swapped a couple of cartridges between boxes of different types of ammo. I see a spent case in one of the pics but I'm guessing that wasn't the problematic cartridge. Recovering the problematic case, if still around, may shed a lot of light.
.... and the bullet was pushed back into the cartridge case before being fired...
Which should lessen the pressure, right?
No, it would spike...lesser case volume.
True in handgun cartridges with handgun powders. Not so in magnum rifles with appropriate magnum rifle powders.
Increased jump to the lands typically reduces pressure in rifle cartridges.
After seeing the carnage and hearing the sad tale of the young Marine, I certainly would like to know what happened if it can be determined by forensic analysis... however, I'm thinking even analysis of this pile of metal is going to be a WAG by time it is done and legal action will be pretty much a moot point.
A couple points that keep coming to mind. Everyone says this has to be a rebarrel, but I wouldn't necessarily count on that unless I was to see the barrel markings. Just as is reasonably common to rechamber the Pre 64 30-06 rifles to 300 WM using the original barrel, I would think a 7 x 57 barrel could be rechambered to 7 Rem Mag- though the possibility is much lower in my experience... my feeling is one of the two theories floating around here on this thread are the correct one- either the gunsmith who did the work damaged and weakened the action by improperly removing the action or installing the barrel, or the mag case was loaded severely low, leading to an explosion in the case when ignited. This low loading issue has been a known issue with magnum cases for quite some time but I've never actually seen damage like this occur and blamed on this condition before.
Definitely hoping for some resolution in this case...
Whatever the cause, think we will all pay more attention after this thread.
Did the rifle have a pre 64 action type or was it a pre 64 actual?
Was the rifle original config?
Ammo reportedly factory.
And of correct type.
On a range w others shooting, odd report may go unnoticed.
Dunno if mixed ammo ( wrong type ), bad ammo (accidental or sabotage).
[/quote]
Whatever caused it - that would have been nasty to have been holding that rifle.
A guy I worked with ran out of ammo for his 243 the night before deer opener. Decided to load up some real quick and used pistol powder - ''cause that is what he had". Wanted to check the POI. Sat down behind the bench and touched off a round. The old Remmy 788 action held up pretty well, but all nine of the locking lugs sheared off the bolt and it drove thru his jaw and down into his collar bone. Missed any major blood vessels but beat the Hell out of him.
Chain store has ammo out on shelves.
Sign says " do not open boxes of ammo"....
Yet I repeatedly see fudds and bmw types open the boxes.
WTF
I remember reading stories of CIA spooks, finding a cache of North Vietnamese ammo, would plant just one round loaded with C4...When it blew, it took an ARVN soldier with it. When the ARVN went to examine ammo in that cache, all was Kosher, no C4. Just one booby trapped round. Then the psych ops spooks put out the word that Chicoms were making bad ammo...
Don't ya reckon one of those AK "events" looked much worse...
Forensic testing of rifle and ammo is in order. A product liability atty specializing in firearms, not just a typical plaintiff atty, would be needed. That person would know the right experts to examine the evidence. Should be a good case if handled right.
DF
Whatever caused it - that would have been nasty to have been holding that rifle.
A guy I worked with ran out of ammo for his 243 the night before deer opener. Decided to load up some real quick and used pistol powder - ''cause that is what he had". Wanted to check the POI. Sat down behind the bench and touched off a round. The old Remmy 788 action held up pretty well, but all nine of the locking lugs sheared off the bolt and it drove thru his jaw and down into his collar bone. Missed any major blood vessels but beat the Hell out of him.
[/quote]
Did he get a Darwin Award ? If not, he should have.
Chain store has ammo out on shelves.
Sign says " do not open boxes of ammo"....
Yet I repeatedly see fudds and bmw types open the boxes.
WTF
Sorry, but you need an image with some big red arrows pointed to the sign and the crowds finger fuqing the chit out of the ammo boxes or that isn't reasonable theory.
Chain store has ammo out on shelves.
Sign says " do not open boxes of ammo"....
Yet I repeatedly see fudds and bmw types open the boxes.
WTF
Sorry, but you need an image with some big red arrows pointed to the sign and the crowds finger fuqing the chit out of the ammo boxes or that isn't reasonable theory.
People like to look at the product before purchase
Chain store has ammo out on shelves.
Sign says " do not open boxes of ammo"....
Yet I repeatedly see fudds and bmw types open the boxes.
WTF
Sorry, but you need an image with some big red arrows pointed to the sign and the crowds finger fuqing the chit out of the ammo boxes or that isn't reasonable theory.
People like to look at the product before purchase
People that open boxes of ammo in stores wouldn't know what they were looking at anyway.
Should be a good case if handled right.
DF
Interesting, no doubt, but “good” for which party? The attorney?
Unless the culpability can be pinned on Federal (tough road) I’m not sure who has deep enough pockets to make this “good” for the plaintiff. Maybe there is more to the story...
Current Remington ammo boxes have a small daub of hot glue sealing both end flaps. Easy to tell if a box has been opened.
Several years ago I bought a box of 270 WSM ammo at SW. I did not open the box until I got home and discovered that it only contained 19 rounds instead of 20. That made me think of the possibility of someone sabotaging a round and placing it in a box of factory ammo just because they were anti hunting or just plain mean. I do not doubt that it could happen and maybe has happened in the past. I shoot very little factory ammo and I have enough primers on hand to probably last the rest of my life. I did buy a pound of IMR 4350 at SW that had the factory seal broken though and that does give me pause to think of the possibility that someone out there might want to sabotage the reloading powder.
After seeing the carnage and hearing the sad tale of the young Marine, I certainly would like to know what happened if it can be determined by forensic analysis... however, I'm thinking even analysis of this pile of metal is going to be a WAG by time it is done and legal action will be pretty much a moot point.
A couple points that keep coming to mind. Everyone says this has to be a rebarrel, but I wouldn't necessarily count on that unless I was to see the barrel markings. Just as is reasonably common to rechamber the Pre 64 30-06 rifles to 300 WM using the original barrel, I would think a 7 x 57 barrel could be rechambered to 7 Rem Mag- though the possibility is much lower in my experience... my feeling is one of the two theories floating around here on this thread are the correct one- either the gunsmith who did the work damaged and weakened the action by improperly removing the action or installing the barrel, or the mag case was loaded severely low, leading to an explosion in the case when ignited. This low loading issue has been a known issue with magnum cases for quite some time but I've never actually seen damage like this occur and blamed on this condition before.
Definitely hoping for some resolution in this case...
I'd wanna see how long the screws are for that rear sight. That doesn't look like any factory sight I've ever seen on a M70. I know I haven't seen them all, but I've seen a goodly share of them, and never that one.
Who drilled the big hole in the left ring? Winchesters have a hole on the right side. Maybe the guy recut the threads and cut too deep? Who knows.
I was thinking along the lines of .300 or .325 short magnum and maybe it could chamber up without the bullet extending into the neck area of the chamber but obviously being too large for the bore and with a magnum charge of powder behind it. People do pilfer around in ammo boxes at stores. One time at a Walmart I was looking inside a box of some high priced premium ammo to see what the bullets looked like and I found Remington Core Lokt.
WSM case body would lever allow it to be chambered in any case based off of the H&H .532 belted mag. While it's OAL would certainly fit, its body diameter would not.
Who drilled the big hole in the left ring? Winchesters have a hole on the right side. Maybe the guy recut the threads and cut too deep? Who knows.
Pretty good. You're the first to catch that!
Should be a good case if handled right.
DF
Interesting, no doubt, but “good” for which party? The attorney?
Unless the culpability can be pinned on Federal (tough road) I’m not sure who has deep enough pockets to make this “good” for the plaintiff. Maybe there is more to the story...
Good for the poor guy with one eye...
DF
Who drilled the big hole in the left ring? Winchesters have a hole on the right side. Maybe the guy recut the threads and cut too deep? Who knows.
Pretty good. You're the first to catch that!
Agreed on the good catch. Would any of the early side-mount scope mounts have a screw that far forward? Looks like there are Buehler scope bases on it now.
It is not unusual to see this hole drilled on the left side because this is where the gas vent hole should be. I never do this because I don't think it's important but some do. GD
Chain store has ammo out on shelves.
Sign says " do not open boxes of ammo"....
Yet I repeatedly see fudds and bmw types open the boxes.
WTF
I got a box of 300 Savage superperformance from Mid South Shooters supply
Looked like they’d been passed around at a keg party. The box flap had been worked a thousand times it looked. Oooooh and ahhhhh, caterpillar diesel fuel finger smudges on the box.
Chain store has ammo out on shelves.
Sign says " do not open boxes of ammo"....
Yet I repeatedly see fudds and bmw types open the boxes.
WTF
I got a box of 300 Savage superperformance from Mid South Shooters supply
Looked like they’d been passed around at a keg party. The box flap had been worked a thousands times. Oooooh and ahhhhh, caterpillar diesel fuel finger smudges on the box.
The bigger the cartridge the worse it is...”look at this 460 weatherby.” Ammo is never sold.
It is not unusual to see this hole drilled on the left side because this is where the gas vent hole should be. I never do this because I don't think it's important but some do. GD
As a second vent? Model 70s in the 30s had a vent on the right.
Just saying it looks like more than a factory job.
Chain store has ammo out on shelves.
Sign says " do not open boxes of ammo"....
Yet I repeatedly see fudds and bmw types open the boxes.
WTF
I got a box of 300 Savage superperformance from Mid South Shooters supply
Looked like they’d been passed around at a keg party. The box flap had been worked a thousand times it looked. Oooooh and ahhhhh, caterpillar diesel fuel finger smudges on the box.
I'll take em off your hands if it'll make you feel better.
I am too stupid to post pics but I had the same thing happen to me on a pre-64 action custom rifle by a well known maker. His ammo as well. Action looks very similar and my barrel was down range but in great shape. Checked the remaining ammo and it all checked out. It was my third shot of a range session. First one right where it was aimed. Next shot off a hair right and I decided to fire a third to verify and boom explosion. Very loud when a gun blows up. Cartridge was a 257 wby mag. I had eye protection but still had major facial injuries and an eye surgery to remove foreign material from my eye. Came to on the floor in the corner of the shooting house. Sorry for your friend. It made me nervous for months afterwards to shoot and when other people shot. I would find myself backing up. I will send pictures to anyone interested by text. Then you can post them up. Just PM me.
You sure yours was a "pre 64 model 70"? From what I saw in the pics John just uploaded, that was a 6 digit classic.
It does look to be a classic not a pre-64. I was only going off the build sheet from it. Build sheet said pre-64 but you guys have proved it to be a classic action. Sorry about the mix up.
After seeing the carnage and hearing the sad tale of the young Marine, I certainly would like to know what happened if it can be determined by forensic analysis... however, I'm thinking even analysis of this pile of metal is going to be a WAG by time it is done and legal action will be pretty much a moot point.
A couple points that keep coming to mind. Everyone says this has to be a rebarrel, but I wouldn't necessarily count on that unless I was to see the barrel markings. Just as is reasonably common to rechamber the Pre 64 30-06 rifles to 300 WM using the original barrel, I would think a 7 x 57 barrel could be rechambered to 7 Rem Mag- though the possibility is much lower in my experience... my feeling is one of the two theories floating around here on this thread are the correct one- either the gunsmith who did the work damaged and weakened the action by improperly removing the action or installing the barrel, or the mag case was loaded severely low, leading to an explosion in the case when ignited. This low loading issue has been a known issue with magnum cases for quite some time but I've never actually seen damage like this occur and blamed on this condition before.
Definitely hoping for some resolution in this case...
A rechamber from 300H&H to 300WM was not rare. From 30-06 to 300WM would be much more difficult as, of course, would rechambering from 7X57 to 7mm RM. Bolt face, magazine box and ejection port being the obstacles.
A new rifle was built to replace this one for no charge and I moved on. Medical bills were supposed to be paid as well but weren’t. I finally decided to just move on. I am in the firearms business myself though retail and suing the gentlemen just never sat right with me. Maybe it was no fault of his. We will never know.
I'm curious.
The guy ageed to pay your medical bills but then welched on the deal and you didn't sue him because you were both in the gun business? The guy's in the gumaking business and doesn't have liability insurance?
No one determined what caused the blow up? That's important in order to prevent other blow ups, like just maybe the one that cost the young marine his eye.
A new rifle was built to replace this one for no charge and I moved on. Medical bills were supposed to be paid as well but weren’t. I finally decided to just move on. I am in the firearms business myself though retail and suing the gentlemen just never sat right with me. Maybe it was no fault of his. We will never know.
I'm curious.
The guy ageed to pay your medical bills but then welched on the deal and you didn't sue him because you were both in the gun business? The guy's in the gumaking business and doesn't have liability insurance?
No one determined what caused the blow up? That's important in order to prevent other blow ups, like just maybe the one that cost the young marine his eye.
To clarify yes he originally agreed to pay the medical bills. I submitted them multiple times and he claimed he never got them. I even went to Dallas SCI to pay him a visit. Long ways from my home in Montana. He agreed on the spot to pay again. Long story short I should of sued I guess but I had insurance and co-pays were a couple grand.
Nobody determined the cause of the blow up. I still have the gun or what’s left of it. He wanted it back but I wouldn’t agree to that. I know it would of disappeared. I took the trigger and some bolt parts out of it other than that it’s all there. Ammunition was the guess but obviously that evidence is gone. I pulled the remaining bullets from the box and broke them down. Everything checked out. I have a picture of that as well if needed but 79S would have to post it.
I am too stupid to post pics but I had the same thing happen to me on a pre-64 action custom rifle by a well known maker. His ammo as well. Action looks very similar and my barrel was down range but in great shape. Checked the remaining ammo and it all checked out. It was my third shot of a range session. First one right where it was aimed. Next shot off a hair right and I decided to fire a third to verify and boom explosion. Very loud when a gun blows up. Cartridge was a 257 wby mag. I had eye protection but still had major facial injuries and an eye surgery to remove foreign material from my eye. Came to on the floor in the corner of the shooting house. Sorry for your friend. It made me nervous for months afterwards to shoot and when other people shot. I would find myself backing up. I will send pictures to anyone interested by text. Then you can post them up. Just PM me.
The common theme with the M70’s being discussed here is that they are all custom, re-barreled guns. Has anyone experienced a similar failure with an unmodified M70?
I can’t say for certain but quite a few gunsmith contacted me when my accident happened. They all seemed to think that action design did not hold up well to case failure pressure. Don’t quote me but I believe Dennis Olson said something about it not having a good gas block under battery cause of the extractor cut. Most of the gunsmiths agreed that certain Mauser were very good in a case failure and Remington 700’s as well. The replacement rifle was built on a 700 not a 70 like the first one.
Chain store has ammo out on shelves.
Sign says " do not open boxes of ammo"....
Yet I repeatedly see fudds and bmw types open the boxes.
WTF
Sorry, but you need an image with some big red arrows pointed to the sign and the crowds finger fuqing the chit out of the ammo boxes or that isn't reasonable theory.
Exactly!!!
And way more overwhelmingly in depth conjecture that brought us the likes of, “I see a spent case in one of the pics, but I’m guessing that wasn’t the problematic cartridge,” and “recovering the problematic case, if still around, may shed a lot of light.”
Clear the floor, boys! Thomas phu ckin Magnum is here.
Chain store has ammo out on shelves.
Sign says " do not open boxes of ammo"....
Yet I repeatedly see fudds and bmw types open the boxes.
WTF
Sorry, but you need an image with some big red arrows pointed to the sign and the crowds finger fuqing the chit out of the ammo boxes or that isn't reasonable theory.
Exactly!!!
And way more overwhelmingly in depth conjecture that brought us the likes of, “I see a spent case in one of the pics, but I’m guessing that wasn’t the problematic cartridge,” and “recovering the problematic case, if still around, may shed a lot of light.”
Clear the floor, boys! Thomas phu ckin Magnum is here.
You're really proud of those red arrows, aren't you.
Not offering an opinion on why it blew.
My sympathy for the Marine gent that lost his eye. I'm not sure shooting glasses would have stopped a bolt coming at you.
I blew my uncles crono off of my deck rail once upon a time. I was chronographing some Magtech .380 and one round in the box was .32 acp. I don't own a .32. Mixed ammo happens. If I was to have an opinion I'd think of ammo that could be held by the extractor and fired and a bullet that seals off the bore along with a marginal receiver. Usually when something bad happens, two or more bad things coming together will defeat adequate engineering.
Someone posed a photo that seemed to show "35" headstamped on the cartridge case.
Someone else posted an opinion that a .350 Remington Magnum would be the only oversized round that could fit in the chamber.
Hmmmmm....
Whatever caused it - that would have been nasty to have been holding that rifle.
A guy I worked with ran out of ammo for his 243 the night before deer opener. Decided to load up some real quick and used pistol powder - ''cause that is what he had". Wanted to check the POI. Sat down behind the bench and touched off a round. The old Remmy 788 action held up pretty well, but all nine of the locking lugs sheared off the bolt and it drove thru his jaw and down into his collar bone. Missed any major blood vessels but beat the Hell out of him.
Did he get a Darwin Award ? If not, he should have.
[/quote]
Craigster,
You have no idea! The guy was a good friend and someone I really looked up to. In his mid-40’s he became a drunk, cheated on his wife and began doing things that got him sued left and right. Lost his job, his wife and family and almost killed himself a couple of times. I still don’t know what the Hell happened to him.
Yeah nevermind the big ass hole on the left side of the action something Winchester never put on their rifle. So maybe grandpas favorite gunsmith decided to add another gas vent.
Chain store has ammo out on shelves.
Sign says " do not open boxes of ammo"....
Yet I repeatedly see fudds and bmw types open the boxes.
WTF
Sorry, but you need an image with some big red arrows pointed to the sign and the crowds finger fuqing the chit out of the ammo boxes or that isn't reasonable theory.
Exactly!!!
And way more overwhelmingly in depth conjecture that brought us the likes of, “I see a spent case in one of the pics, but I’m guessing that wasn’t the problematic cartridge,” and “recovering the problematic case, if still around, may shed a lot of light.”
Clear the floor, boys! Thomas phu ckin Magnum is here.
You're really proud of those red arrows, aren't you.
Oh chit Horatio Caine is back from HQ... some more arrows for you
![[Linked Image]]( https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/gallery/80/full/146927.jpeg)
Whatever caused it - that would have been nasty to have been holding that rifle.
A guy I worked with ran out of ammo for his 243 the night before deer opener. Decided to load up some real quick and used pistol powder - ''cause that is what he had". Wanted to check the POI. Sat down behind the bench and touched off a round. The old Remmy 788 action held up pretty well, but all nine of the locking lugs sheared off the bolt and it drove thru his jaw and down into his collar bone. Missed any major blood vessels but beat the Hell out of him.
Did he get a Darwin Award ? If not, he should have.
Craigster,
You have no idea! The guy was a good friend and someone I really looked up to. In his mid-40’s he became a drunk, cheated on his wife and began doing things that got him sued left and right. Lost his job, his wife and family and almost killed himself a couple of times. I still don’t know what the Hell happened to him.
[/quote]
Sad, can happen to the best of us. As the saying goes, "there for the grace of God". Wishing him well.
From what I can tell, that's a pre-64 model... I can see half of the spent case sitting in the chamber.. Barrel appears mostly undamaged - just the receiver blew, right at the area where the base of the case is/was, so I kinda doubt the previous round obstructed the bore or else it would have 'peeled' - as another poster mentioned above.. I'm also thinking it may have been ammo-related and not the rifle..
I'm so sorry to hear of the injuries to the shooter.. Dang..
I agree the action kind of looks like a pre-64 but the barrel does not. That and I'm pretty certain 7mm Rem Mags were never offered in the pre-64s Model 70s.
OP... any details on when and if the rifle has been recently re-barreled? Any other recent work done to it?
You are correct, 7mm Remington Mag was not a factory offering:
https://www.ogca.com/WRM_collecting_winchester_pre.htmThe pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters were produced in 18 catalogued calibers as follows: .22 Hornet, .220 Swift, .243 Winchester, .250 Savage, .257 Roberts, .264 Winchester Magnum, .270 Winchester, 7X57MM, .300 Savage, .308 Winchester, .30-06, .300 Winchester Magnum, .35 Remington, .358 Winchester, .375 H&H Magnum, and .458 Winchester Magnum. Also, a very few were produced in 7.65MM and 9X57 MM prior to World War II in an attempt to lure foreign market.
Well the extra gas relief hole probably didn’t do jack as far as venting but it didn’t seem to hurt either as that’s in an intact area of what’s left of the front ring.
The rear sight screws had nothing to do with it, else it would have blown before and they wouldn’t have been able to sight in or use the rifle for years as stated if the screws were creating a bore obstruction. Plus I’ve seen more than one instance where the rear sight screw holes were drilled into the bore. Worst that ever happened was the pressure stripped the screws and vented through the holes, sent the rear base up and forward where it lodged in the bay door of the shop behind the bullet trap.
Aside from riding this ride personally and having the Tshirt I’ve also examined many instances of catastrophic failures and even happen to have a Pre64 in my collection that looks remarkably similar to what happened with this one. The guy I got it from told me the story of how his father liked to use “hot” handloads for moose with his 270. He decided to try some new “duplex” loads and showed him how you should just put in a pinch of pistol powder and then the normal hot load of rifle powder. First round demolished the M70 and old dad was short 2 fingers and an eye, kid learned to drive a 3 on the tree right quick to get him to the Dr out in the valley.
One year I saw three unmodified factory rifles, 2 300WMs and one 308 that were either blown up or in the 308’s case locked up with the lugs set back .030” from one brand of factory “premium” ammo. One guy lost an eye and the other two were okay. In all cases the ammo maker provided the cost of a new rifle. Not sure how the guy who lost an eye made out but he obviously wasn’t going to settle for a new rifle.
Schit happens, even to good people. People who shoot rifles and even the people who work at ammo companies can make mistakes. The guy who screwed up the ammo that blew me up hadn’t checked the powder dispenser before dumping a new can of powder in when changing over to a different caliber and load. It apparently still had an amount of the wrong powder in it and the first two rounds got way too much of way too fast a powder. It was provable because the lab found the other round when they tore them down and were able to identify the powder. The amount lined up with the manufacturer’s data as to how much of the correct powder was supposed to be in them so it was a pretty easy conclusion after a quick check of ballistic modeling software to estimate how much pressure such a load would generate.
Hope the dude can adapt and heal up fast to have a normal life.
Can a Winchester pre 64 bolt action fire out of battery? Or even nearly so with the bolt handle down say 25%?
No, the cocking piece will hit the cocking cam on the back of the bolt.
Well the extra gas relief hole probably didn’t do jack as far as venting but it didn’t seem to hurt either as that’s in an intact area of what’s left of the front ring.
The rear sight screws had nothing to do with it, else it would have blown before and they wouldn’t have been able to sight in or use the rifle for years as stated if the screws were creating a bore obstruction. Plus I’ve seen more than one instance where the rear sight screw holes were drilled into the bore. Worst that ever happened was the pressure stripped the screws and vented through the holes, sent the rear base up and forward where it lodged in the bay door of the shop behind the bullet trap.
Aside from riding this ride personally and having the Tshirt I’ve also examined many instances of catastrophic failures and even happen to have a Pre64 in my collection that looks remarkably similar to what happened with this one. The guy I got it from told me the story of how his father liked to use “hot” handloads for moose with his 270. He decided to try some new “duplex” loads and showed him how you should just put in a pinch of pistol powder and then the normal hot load of rifle powder. First round demolished the M70 and old dad was short 2 fingers and an eye, kid learned to drive a 3 on the tree right quick to get him to the Dr out in the valley.
One year I saw three unmodified factory rifles, 2 300WMs and one 308 that were either blown up or in the 308’s case locked up with the lugs set back .030” from one brand of factory “premium” ammo. One guy lost an eye and the other two were okay. In all cases the ammo maker provided the cost of a new rifle. Not sure how the guy who lost an eye made out but he obviously wasn’t going to settle for a new rifle.
Schit happens, even to good people. People who shoot rifles and even the people who work at ammo companies can make mistakes. The guy who screwed up the ammo that blew me up hadn’t checked the powder dispenser before dumping a new can of powder in when changing over to a different caliber and load. It apparently still had an amount of the wrong powder in it and the first two rounds got way too much of way too fast a powder. It was provable because the lab found the other round when they tore them down and were able to identify the powder. The amount lined up with the manufacturer’s data as to how much of the correct powder was supposed to be in them so it was a pretty easy conclusion after a quick check of ballistic modeling software to estimate how much pressure such a load would generate.
Hope the dude can adapt and heal up fast to have a normal life.
Hey man I don’t know if you been following this but it was a 350 Remington mag shot in this rifle, that’s the only reason it blew up.. Gees.. But agree hope the young man has a speedy recovery hopefully they can work on his eye and it’s not completely gone.
You have better eyes than me. I couldn’t make out squat.
I’d guess an ammo problem, that action flat blew apart due to a heck of a pressure spike. Out of battery or barrel obstruction would look a lot different. Wrong ammo or a bad round full of fast burning powder.
Did you zoom the pic up to around 500%? Something funny there stamped in & it don't have any of the #'s it should have.
It was Professor Plum in the dining room with the candlestick...
Or maybe it was colonel mustard.....
I don't believe anyone said a 350 Mag was fired in the rifle. I only said the 350 Rem Mag was the only larger caliber magnum which would fit into the chamber. I mention this because the "wrong ammunition" theory has been discussed a bit. As I said, no one can determine a cause without having the gun in hand. I love pre-64 Model 70's but if I had a serious case failure, I would rather be shooting almost anything else. GD
I am inclined to agree with your high pressure assessment.
Since he fired the first round without incident, it is hard to visualize some kind of barrel obstruction, yet amazingly high pressure must have ensued.
Before This thread goes any further it probably would be a good idea to know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth about the loaded round in this picture.
That is a reload! Save the picture and expand it out to double or better size and look at it.
Before This thread goes any further it probably would be a good idea to know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth about the loaded round in this picture.
That is a reload! Save the picture and expand it out to double or better size and look at it.
What would lead you to that conclusion? GD
Before This thread goes any further it probably would be a good idea to know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth about the loaded round in this picture.
That is a reload! Save the picture and expand it out to double or better size and look at it.
What would lead you to that conclusion? GD
My guess: dent in shoulder.
Also guess: was in the magazine and that dent got there when the rifle went off.
Before This thread goes any further it probably would be a good idea to know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth about the loaded round in this picture.
That is a reload! Save the picture and expand it out to double or better size and look at it.
What would lead you to that conclusion? GD
Anyone who's reloaded for any amount of time has created the same dent by having too much lube on the brass and running it into a full length resizer. Further, it is the only way they have created that dent.
Could an exploding rifle create a dent like that?
Further, it is the only way they have created that dent.
Really? Only way?
And the gash in the bullet?
Could an exploding rifle create a dent like that?
Impossible. I seen it happen oncet when I wuz reloading so that’s the onliest way it ken happen.
Do we know yet where the bullet from the second round is?
I read the first 4 pages and the last couple, but have some other things to do.
Is that bullet still at the end of the leade, 1/4" up into the lands and grooves?
That's about the 8th one I have heard of, shot with Federal ammo in the last 10 years.
One was a handgun. Federal 158 grain round nose 38 Special. The shooter was me. Gun blew up in my hand. I was only cut lightly on my right thumb, but the gun was a total loss.
The others were all rifles and all but one were shot with Federal Premium Ammo. The one exception was a 243, an old Herders J9 rifle and was shot with the "blue box" ammo.
I saw one blow at the Shoshoni Range. Shooter was injured but come out OK. He had some deep cuts on his left hand and and blood from his face, but his eyes were ok. That was a Remington M700 in 270 Winchester caliber. That was the 1st one in fact, about 10 years ago. He was from Iowa and came to Wyoming for an antelope hunt. Poor guy, when I talking to him he was saying he was just going to drive back home the following day.
The others were guns I was shown or told about.
So this is a problem Federal is obviously not paying the needed level of attention to.
That's what lawyers are for.
Let's sue them!
After seeing the carnage and hearing the sad tale of the young Marine, I certainly would like to know what happened if it can be determined by forensic analysis... however, I'm thinking even analysis of this pile of metal is going to be a WAG by time it is done and legal action will be pretty much a moot point.
A couple points that keep coming to mind. Everyone says this has to be a rebarrel, but I wouldn't necessarily count on that unless I was to see the barrel markings. Just as is reasonably common to rechamber the Pre 64 30-06 rifles to 300 WM using the original barrel, I would think a 7 x 57 barrel could be rechambered to 7 Rem Mag- though the possibility is much lower in my experience... my feeling is one of the two theories floating around here on this thread are the correct one- either the gunsmith who did the work damaged and weakened the action by improperly removing the action or installing the barrel, or the mag case was loaded severely low, leading to an explosion in the case when ignited. This low loading issue has been a known issue with magnum cases for quite some time but I've never actually seen damage like this occur and blamed on this condition before.
Definitely hoping for some resolution in this case...
A rechamber from 300H&H to 300WM was not rare. From 30-06 to 300WM would be much more difficult as, of course, would rechambering from 7X57 to 7mm RM. Bolt face, magazine box and ejection port being the obstacles.
Not really!
Seeing we all don’t have the exploded rifle in front of us, we can only guess with the facts presented to us and use any expertise we each may have.
After looking at the pictures presented to us it appears as if there is a “3” on the base of the cartridge stuck in the breech of this exploded firearm but without a clearer view that is not possible to verify. After looking at my loading manuals the one cartridge that no one had brought up and has almost the same exact dimensions as a 7mm Remington magnum is the Winchester .338 Magnum. That might be a possibility. That would definitely cause a pressure spike if a .338 Magnum can be chambered in a 7mm Remington Magnum. Until someone inspects it we are only guessing.
Seeing we all don’t have the exploded rifle in front of us, we can only guess with the facts presented to us and use any expertise we each may have.
After looking at the pictures presented to us it appears as if there is a “3” on the base of the cartridge stuck in the breech of this exploded firearm but without a clearer view that is not possible to verify. After looking at my loading manuals the one cartridge that no one had brought up and has almost the same exact dimensions as a 7mm Remington magnum is the Winchester .338 Magnum. That might be a possibility. That would definitely cause a pressure spike if a .338 Magnum can be chambered in a 7mm Remington Magnum. Until someone inspects it we are only guessing.
How are you going to cram a piece of brass with a .370"Ø neck into a .320"Ø hole?
3 × scale, the red is the .338. You can see where the interference is.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/bziVk0n.jpg)
I’m just hypothetically saying this could happen. The bullet could be pushed into the cartridge case without a lot of force. This may leave enough room for the cartridge to be chambered.
I’m just hypothetically saying this could happen. The bullet could be pushed into the cartridge case without a lot of force. This may leave enough room for the cartridge to be chambered.
The transition point from the shoulder to the neck on a 7mm mag is 2.229" from the base of the cartridge. The OAL length of the .338 Win Mag is 2.500". You'd have a little over 1/4" of the .338 brass sticking out of the back of the chamber without a seated bullet. So no, it ain't happening hypothetically or otherwise.
Seriously guys, this is connected to the Nashville bombing.
Further, it is the only way they have created that dent.
Really? Only way?
And the gash in the bullet?
That dent is classic from over lubing brass. Position, size, lack of gouging or scatches. I have seen a lot of other reloaders do it on a brass. Do a search through the forums here nd you can likely find a hundred examples. re: the bullet "gash"... As far as I can blow that picture up and maintain decent clarity I cannot say for sure it is a gash. Might just be soot or other dirt. If it is a gash and it is responsible for the dent in the brass, WHERE IS THE GASH IN THE BRASS AND WHY INSN'T IT AT LEAST SCRATCHED? Why didn't it even mark the neck?
I see no inconsistency with that being a pressure dent from excess lube, and I have never in 64 years of loading seen that dent produced any other way
If you're looking at what I'm looking at, it looks like an upside down "RE" to me.
OP said it was a 7mm magnum, most everyone seems to be of the opinion it it a pre 64 and must be a re barrel to be a 7mm Remington Magnum. Just curious as to how the barrel is marked.
Ronnie
Seeing we all don’t have the exploded rifle in front of us, we can only guess with the facts presented to us and use any expertise we each may have.
After looking at the pictures presented to us it appears as if there is a “3” on the base of the cartridge stuck in the breech of this exploded firearm but without a clearer view that is not possible to verify. After looking at my loading manuals the one cartridge that no one had brought up and has almost the same exact dimensions as a 7mm Remington magnum is the Winchester .338 Magnum. That might be a possibility. That would definitely cause a pressure spike if a .338 Magnum can be chambered in a 7mm Remington Magnum. Until someone inspects it we are only guessing.
How are you going to cram a piece of brass with a .370"Ø neck into a .320"Ø hole?
You ain't a gonna do it.
Further, it is the only way they have created that dent.
Really? Only way?
And the gash in the bullet?
That dent is classic from over lubing brass. Position, size, lack of gouging or scatches. I have seen a lot of other reloaders do it on a brass. Do a search through the forums here nd you can likely find a hundred examples. re: the bullet "gash"... As far as I can blow that picture up and maintain decent clarity I cannot say for sure it is a gash. Might just be soot or other dirt. If it is a gash and it is responsible for the dent in the brass, WHERE IS THE GASH IN THE BRASS AND WHY INSN'T IT AT LEAST SCRATCHED? Why didn't it even mark the neck?
I see no inconsistency with that being a pressure dent from excess lube, and I have never in 64 years of loading seen that dent produced any other way
In your 64 years of reloading, how many pre 64s have you seen blown up?
Let me ask this another way.
Is it POSSIBLE that the damage to this cartridge and bullet occurred when the rifle exploded?
Before This thread goes any further it probably would be a good idea to know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth about the loaded round in this picture.
That is a reload! Save the picture and expand it out to double or better size and look at it.
What would lead you to that conclusion? GD
Anyone who's reloaded for any amount of time has created the same dent by having too much lube on the brass and running it into a full length resizer. Further, it is the only way they have created that dent.
Oh Jesus, ph ucking Colombo Jr is on the scene.. That dent isn’t from the kid reloading that dent is from that rifle being a ph ucking handgrenade... Good lord where do you guys come up with this chit..
Further, it is the only way they have created that dent.
Really? Only way?
And the gash in the bullet?
That dent is classic from over lubing brass. Position, size, lack of gouging or scatches. I have seen a lot of other reloaders do it on a brass. Do a search through the forums here nd you can likely find a hundred examples. re: the bullet "gash"... As far as I can blow that picture up and maintain decent clarity I cannot say for sure it is a gash. Might just be soot or other dirt. If it is a gash and it is responsible for the dent in the brass, WHERE IS THE GASH IN THE BRASS AND WHY INSN'T IT AT LEAST SCRATCHED? Why didn't it even mark the neck?
I see no inconsistency with that being a pressure dent from excess lube, and I have never in 64 years of loading seen that dent produced any other way
In your 64 years of reloading, how many pre 64s have you seen blown up?
Let me ask this another way.
Is it POSSIBLE that the damage to this cartridge and bullet occurred when the rifle exploded?
No man, ok I finally pieced this together... so on the night of the 15th this guys jealous cousin (Tad) was enraged his cousin got grandpa’s prized rifle. Tad was like hell no! If I can’t have it, no one can have it. So off to his best buds house who reloads (Chazz St. James) Anyhow Chazz and Tad load one 7 mag round with 60gr of red dot. Tad and Chazz bro hug it out and Tad races back gam gam house to put the sabotaged shell in the box.. You guys know the rest of the story..
I’ve been trying to figure out where the guy who bought a box, stuffed a round full of C4, then went back to the store and swapped it with another round bought the C4. I could use some to blow some beaver dams or something if it’s commonly available.
I’ve been trying to figure out where the guy who bought a box, stuffed a round full of C4, then went back to the store and swapped it with another round bought the C4. I could use some to blow some beaver dams or something if it’s commonly available.
Only to the 24 hour campfire conspiracy theorist
Box of ammo purchased. One round had
bullet pulled and powder dumped. Powder replaced with
C4 and bullet reseated....
I remember reading stories of CIA
spooks, finding a cache of North Vietnamese ammo,
would plant just one round loaded with C4...
DF
One might have a hard time detonating PE
with rifle primer considering the desensitized
formula/nature of the product.. What was
used initially was the powdered (main ingredient)
of C4.
If C4 was so easy to set off one wouldn't require
3 stage detonator.(ignition, primary and base charge)
Before This thread goes any further it probably would be a good idea to know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth about the loaded round in this picture.
That is a reload! Save the picture and expand it out to double or better size and look at it.
What would lead you to that conclusion? GD
Anyone who's reloaded for any amount of time has created the same dent by having too much lube on the brass and running it into a full length resizer. Further, it is the only way they have created that dent.
Oh Jesus, ph ucking Colombo Jr is on the scene.. That dent isn’t from the kid reloading that dent is from that rifle being a ph ucking handgrenade... Good lord where do you guys come up with this chit..
I would think it might look a little more dirty covered with carbon & soot sitting in the magazine when kaboom happened.
Pretty much like it had been to hell and back dragged behind a truck, no?
Before This thread goes any further it probably would be a good idea to know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth about the loaded round in this picture.
That is a reload! Save the picture and expand it out to double or better size and look at it.
What would lead you to that conclusion? GD
Anyone who's reloaded for any amount of time has created the same dent by having too much lube on the brass and running it into a full length resizer. Further, it is the only way they have created that dent.
Oh Jesus, ph ucking Colombo Jr is on the scene.. That dent isn’t from the kid reloading that dent is from that rifle being a ph ucking handgrenade... Good lord where do you guys come up with this chit..
OK, I am willing to listen to an intelligent explanation.
Tell us how that dent got there without having powder residue, without crusshing laterally, without any semblance at all of gass curring when it would have been withingan inch ofthe base of the round that took the gun apart AND cut the base and web of the round almost completely away, without a scratch, without any brass splatter like the magazine floorplate without creasing AND in the normal place for a lube dent AND typical size for a lube dent AND completely symmetrical sides like a lube dent. There is zero evidence visible indicating that dent was caused in the blow up. In point of fact there isn't even evidence it was in the rifle.
BUT...Even if that round was NEVER in the rifle, which would often be the case since experienced shooter mostly load single rounds, that dent is very strong evidence that that round is a reload without any evidence thus far to support anything else.
I'm not columbo, nor Angela Lansbury nor Mike Hammer but I could pass for Nero Wolfe. But I think the likelihood of either of those 2 shiny rounds being in the rifle at the time it sploded are very low.
The dent got there from the cartridge hitting the bench, the follower, the ground, or a combination, when the floorplate blew open. Smokeless powder burns pretty clean (Hence, the name) and not everything is covered with soot. There is still no evidence of anything happening other than the receiver failing. The cause(s), simply not known. GD
The dent got there from the cartridge hitting the bench, the follower, the ground, or a combination, when the floorplate blew open. Smokeless powder burns pretty clean (Hence, the name) and not everything is covered with soot. There is still no evidence of anything happening other than the receiver failing. The cause(s), simply not known. GD
CIA spooks were performing a test flight of a new airborne weapons system mounted on a Reaper. They picked up the victim at the range with their sensors, aimed and fired the proton beam weapon destruction laser and scored a direct hit. They finished the mission laying down chemtrails while RTB...
The dent got there from the cartridge hitting the bench, the follower, the ground, or a combination, when the floorplate blew open. Smokeless powder burns pretty clean (Hence, the name) and not everything is covered with soot. There is still no evidence of anything happening other than the receiver failing. The cause(s), simply not known. GD
OK. Even AJ300MAG can come up with a better story than what you managed. Powder burns so clean that pierced primers or leaks around primers usually show black around the leak and the adjacent bolt face which may often also include pitting. Show me one case hurled against something with a dent like that.
The dent did not blow up the rifle. I have had a number of them over the years and fired all of them and afterwards could no longer identify the case nor did it in any case I remember even affect accuracy. That the case is a reload only means that it needs to be consider as a possibility when looking for an answer. That reloads are at least as likely to wreck a rifle as factory ammo and depending on the reloader, perhaps greatly more so. When coupled with the blow up those cases can be much more readily and perhaps much more definitively provide an explanation. And lastly of course, manufacturers have demonstrated a distinct aversion to standing behind rifle damage when reloads are involved to the point of stating that such use voids the warranty.
The dent got there from the cartridge hitting the bench, the follower, the ground, or a combination, when the floorplate blew open. Smokeless powder burns pretty clean (Hence, the name) and not everything is covered with soot. There is still no evidence of anything happening other than the receiver failing. The cause(s), simply not known. GD
OK. Even AJ300MAG can come up with a better story than what you managed. Powder burns so clean that pierced primers or leaks around primers usually show black around the leak and the adjacent bolt face which may often also include pitting. Show me one case hurled against something with a dent like that.
The dent did not blow up the rifle. I have had a number of them over the years and fired all of them and afterwards could no longer identify the case nor did it in any case I remember even affect accuracy. That the case is a reload only means that it needs to be consider as a possibility when looking for an answer. That reloads are at least as likely to wreck a rifle as factory ammo and depending on the reloader, perhaps greatly more so. When coupled with the blow up those cases can be much more readily and perhaps much more definitively provide an explanation. And lastly of course, manufacturers have demonstrated a distinct aversion to standing behind rifle damage when reloads are involved to the point of stating that such use voids the warranty.
I would file this response under the heading of “you can’t make this stuff up”. In that, after a long hiatus from this website, I’m guessing months, you are back and still convinced you have the answer(s) to everything. Read your recent posts again, classic “I’m smarter than you” permeates in everything you write. Classic blowhard.
Wow
I'll cast another vote for "old rifle reaping years of being loaded too hot".
But that will take a metallurgical examination to determine.
As far as I can blow that picture up and maintain decent clarity I cannot say for sure it is a gash. Might just be soot or other dirt
Tell us how that dent got there without having powder residue
So the picture clarity is such that you can’t tell if that’s a gash or soot, but you are convinced that you can determine the cause of the dent and that there is no powder residue. Might be soot, but definitely not powder residue.
Got it.
Am not a highly trained gunsmith or a firearms forensic expert - but have seen a few things.
Not enough info to address the wrong cartridge/wrong dia.bullet stuff. Just adding to the many observations and opinions, and not very technical at that.
I think the matter is rather simple - damage caused by high pressure gases escaping from a separated case - maybe a damaged/defective case that gave up, maybe a bolt malfunction and not in full battery with case fully supported when touched-off - something like that.
I don't have to show you one case, you just have to look at the picture and you'll see one. I don't know the ultimate cause of the blowup but I do know enough not to speculate when I cannot get a close look at the evidence. There is no evidence to suggest that round is a reload except a dent at the shoulder area. There are many ways to dent a case which do not include ineptitude at the reloading press. The only first hand witness I have heard from is the OP. He says the cartridges are factory loads and I have no reason to think he is lying; certainly your assertion to the contrary doesn't do it.
Now, I have seen several rifles which were destroyed by improper reloads. I have seen several rifles which were damaged by the use of the wrong ammunition. I have seen a half dozen which came apart when firing factory ammunition. In every case, these rifles were flawed or previously damaged. In one case where the rifle was only slightly damaged, the cause was a flawed piece of brass.
It is sad when personal injury arises from these mishaps and everyone thinks someone or some corporation must be responsible. Sometimes, it's just a series of unintended consequences. An action damaged slightly and failing years later, an action fatigued by the repeated use of borderline reloads (often hot enough to be in the proof load category), a mistake in powder choice, picking up the wrong cartridge; all of these things can result in a mishap and all make it difficult to assign blame. Sometimes, stuff happens. GD
The dent got there from the cartridge hitting the bench, the follower, the ground, or a combination, when the floorplate blew open. Smokeless powder burns pretty clean (Hence, the name) and not everything is covered with soot. There is still no evidence of anything happening other than the receiver failing. The cause(s), simply not known. GD
OK. Even AJ300MAG can come up with a better story than what you managed. Powder burns so clean that pierced primers or leaks around primers usually show black around the leak and the adjacent bolt face which may often also include pitting. Show me one case hurled against something with a dent like that.
The dent did not blow up the rifle. I have had a number of them over the years and fired all of them and afterwards could no longer identify the case nor did it in any case I remember even affect accuracy. That the case is a reload only means that it needs to be consider as a possibility when looking for an answer. That reloads are at least as likely to wreck a rifle as factory ammo and depending on the reloader, perhaps greatly more so. When coupled with the blow up those cases can be much more readily and perhaps much more definitively provide an explanation. And lastly of course, manufacturers have demonstrated a distinct aversion to standing behind rifle damage when reloads are involved to the point of stating that such use voids the warranty.
Please tell me you are not a cop..
I'll cast another vote for "old rifle reaping years of being loaded too hot".
But that will take a metallurgical examination to determine.
Nah man Angela Lansbury nephew miles58 figured it out. Reloads done did it..
I don't have to show you one case, you just have to look at the picture and you'll see one. I don't know the ultimate cause of the blowup but I do know enough not to speculate when I cannot get a close look at the evidence. There is no evidence to suggest that round is a reload except a dent at the shoulder area. There are many ways to dent a case which do not include ineptitude at the reloading press. The only first hand witness I have heard from is the OP. He says the cartridges are factory loads and I have no reason to think he is lying; certainly your assertion to the contrary doesn't do it.
Now, I have seen several rifles which were destroyed by improper reloads. I have seen several rifles which were damaged by the use of the wrong ammunition. I have seen a half dozen which came apart when firing factory ammunition. In every case, these rifles were flawed or previously damaged. In one case where the rifle was only slightly damaged, the cause was a flawed piece of brass.
It is sad when personal injury arises from these mishaps and everyone thinks someone or some corporation must be responsible. Sometimes, it's just a series of unintended consequences. An action damaged slightly and failing years later, an action fatigued by the repeated use of borderline reloads (often hot enough to be in the proof load category), a mistake in powder choice, picking up the wrong cartridge; all of these things can result in a mishap and all make it difficult to assign blame. Sometimes, stuff happens. GD
I guess ol miles58 can’t see the mangled ph ucking bullet still stuffed inside the dented case..
I have bought lots of guns to overload them.
All I ever see with bolt actions is the bolt lugs bend, the bolt lug abutments in the receiver dent, the case head fails, pieces of the bolt head break off, and the extractor blows out the back in pieces along with pieces of the case head.
In the OP picture, the bolt lugs seem to have plowed right through the lug abutments in the receiver.
I have not seen anything like that in my failures. I see the abutments as slightly deforming in my failures. [bend, but not break]
That is one HELL of a detonation.
.. Some years back there was an
article in Handloader Magazine where the writer was
able to repeat the detonations.
But I am also at a loss to explain the young mans
Rifle's detonation -
Smokeless powders are low-order explosives
that
burn [conflagrate].
Not detonate.
where under certain conditions (containment in
brass case/rifle chamber) you get an
explosion. You can also ignite/burn C4 without achieving
detonation..It requires a certain level of shock
to alter the chemical bond (for detonation).
Further, it is the only way they have created that dent.
Really? Only way?
And the gash in the bullet?
That dent is classic from over lubing brass. Position, size, lack of gouging or scatches. I have seen a lot of other reloaders do it on a brass. Do a search through the forums here nd you can likely find a hundred examples. re: the bullet "gash"... As far as I can blow that picture up and maintain decent clarity I cannot say for sure it is a gash. Might just be soot or other dirt. If it is a gash and it is responsible for the dent in the brass, WHERE IS THE GASH IN THE BRASS AND WHY INSN'T IT AT LEAST SCRATCHED? Why didn't it even mark the neck?
I see no inconsistency with that being a pressure dent from excess lube, and I have never in 64 years of loading seen that dent produced any other way
In your 64 years of reloading, how many pre 64s have you seen blown up?
Let me ask this another way.
Is it POSSIBLE that the damage to this cartridge and bullet occurred when the rifle exploded?
I have only seen a couple of mode 70s blown up. Both I think happened to be 7 mags IIRC.
l
To produce a symmetrical dent like that without cuts/scratches indicates either very high and very localized pressure hydraulic most probably or possibly gas pressure. Producing that dent without being larger, without deflection in one direction or another, without cutting through would seem highly unlikely in a situation in which the case is not well enclosed all the way around and extending above and below the dent. Applying that kind of pressure to an unenclosed and unsupported case would have to deform the case pretty obviously in other ways and places. I suppose that a steel BB fired at high enough velocity at a perfect angle to the shoulder and with the case free to move some feet as a result could produce that dent without other obvious damage.
Is it possible that the damage (dent) occurred when the rifle exploded?
That would seem to require the presence of additional damage to the brass and it would seem to require additional evidence of powder/brass from the chamber round on it. If I had to guess, my guess would be that the round was not in the magazine and was likely on the bench with the first fired round and that the discoloration on the bullet could well be blood which from the description of the wounds was apparently available on site.
All I am saying is that the shoulder dent is evidence that that round may have been a reload and I believe it was. That evidence alone is enough reason to be careful about having that round and the remaining rounds in the box it supposedly came from examined. Both of the model 70s I saw that were blown up were reloads. I do not know now and never really did know then what the load was, or that it was in fact a bad load. It seems to me that basic common sense says to eliminate a bad load first and doubly so when there is evidence like this of a reload. That out of the way, then metallurgy work might tell you something, but the degree of certainty is not likely to be real high. I spent 3 years doing metallurgy on something that was previously diagnosed wrong and in a product whose proper function was every bit as critical to the user's health. I believe that if there is a bullet lodged in the barrel (reasonable chance but I have seen a 270 that digested a .308 bullet) and if the round on the table and those in the box are examined an answer will turn up that makes sense.
![[Linked Image]](https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/gallery/80/full/147056.jpg)
Rather than yield with deformity, the bottom lug abutment broke.
I usually see equal damage to bolt lug and lug abutment, but in this case only the abutment seemed to fail.
This would suggest to me that the receiver was brittle.
Maybe the smith read the Kuhnhausen book on Mausers and wanted heat treat.
Maybe the smith had trouble getting it to feed and ground on the feed ramp
I would bet that the initial problem was soft brass failing, and old model 70s just can’t handle escaping gas well
Looks like the lower bolt lug got shortened and bent, while the upper lug is intact.
That means the receiver split [and moved the upper lug abutment] before the bolt moved back.
Which means that, even if the smith compromised the lower abutment with feed ramp mods, the top abutment was still first to fail.
The barrel isn’t split or damaged that I can see. If this was a severe over pressure that exploded the action the barrel would have split also. The action is the only thing that failed and it’s almost certain that it was from a brittle and cracked lug abutment. I personally had a M70 detonate like this action but it was from using the wrong powder. Both the barrel and the action split because the failure was from pressure that exceeded the strength of barrel and action. In this case just the action failed and I believe it had simply become weak and the lug abutments had probably already been set back and developed cracks. It reached its failure point on this final shot.
Still of the opinion that overtightening of a non-factory, replacement barrel cracked the receiver.
Further, it is the only way they have created that dent.
Really? Only way?
And the gash in the bullet?
That dent is classic from over lubing brass. Position, size, lack of gouging or scatches. I have seen a lot of other reloaders do it on a brass. Do a search through the forums here nd you can likely find a hundred examples. re: the bullet "gash"... As far as I can blow that picture up and maintain decent clarity I cannot say for sure it is a gash. Might just be soot or other dirt. If it is a gash and it is responsible for the dent in the brass, WHERE IS THE GASH IN THE BRASS AND WHY INSN'T IT AT LEAST SCRATCHED? Why didn't it even mark the neck?
I see no inconsistency with that being a pressure dent from excess lube, and I have never in 64 years of loading seen that dent produced any other way
In your 64 years of reloading, how many pre 64s have you seen blown up?
Let me ask this another way.
Is it POSSIBLE that the damage to this cartridge and bullet occurred when the rifle exploded?
I have only seen a couple of mode 70s blown up. Both I think happened to be 7 mags IIRC.
l
To produce a symmetrical dent like that without cuts/scratches indicates either very high and very localized pressure hydraulic most probably or possibly gas pressure. Producing that dent without being larger, without deflection in one direction or another, without cutting through would seem highly unlikely in a situation in which the case is not well enclosed all the way around and extending above and below the dent. Applying that kind of pressure to an unenclosed and unsupported case would have to deform the case pretty obviously in other ways and places. I suppose that a steel BB fired at high enough velocity at a perfect angle to the shoulder and with the case free to move some feet as a result could produce that dent without other obvious damage.
Is it possible that the damage (dent) occurred when the rifle exploded?
That would seem to require the presence of additional damage to the brass and it would seem to require additional evidence of powder/brass from the chamber round on it. If I had to guess, my guess would be that the round was not in the magazine and was likely on the bench with the first fired round and that the discoloration on the bullet could well be blood which from the description of the wounds was apparently available on site.
All I am saying is that the shoulder dent is evidence that that round may have been a reload and I believe it was. That evidence alone is enough reason to be careful about having that round and the remaining rounds in the box it supposedly came from examined. Both of the model 70s I saw that were blown up were reloads. I do not know now and never really did know then what the load was, or that it was in fact a bad load. It seems to me that basic common sense says to eliminate a bad load first and doubly so when there is evidence like this of a reload. That out of the way, then metallurgy work might tell you something, but the degree of certainty is not likely to be real high. I spent 3 years doing metallurgy on something that was previously diagnosed wrong and in a product whose proper function was every bit as critical to the user's health. I believe that if there is a bullet lodged in the barrel (reasonable chance but I have seen a 270 that digested a .308 bullet) and if the round on the table and those in the box are examined an answer will turn up that makes sense.
I’m sure everyone here has reloaded more than me, but all of the lube dents I’ve ever seen or produced, were above the base of the shoulder, never on it or below it.
I have worked on a Ruger in 7mm mag.that had a 270 win.shot in it.
It broke the stock in two at the wrist and the floor plate had a pronounced bow to it.
The fellow that shot it only had a few small cuts from brass.
This happened shooting at a coyote while sitting his truck.
Bet the sound was epic.
And that dent was not made with to much lube.
I’m sure everyone here has reloaded more than me, but all of the lube dents I’ve ever seen or produced, were above the base of the shoulder, never on it or below it.
Lube dents occur above, below, on the shoulder, into the neck and even in straight wall cases. The common defining characteristics are that it is a smooth (no sharp crease) dent with the rest of the case unmarked because it was supported tightly by the sizing die and pronounced length aligned with the length of the case.. Sometimes they are deeper at one end than the other. Most of the time they are symmetrical side to side but not predictably so end to end. I do not think I have ever seen a case that had multiple lube dents, but I suppose someone discovering their first one might lube it up again and run the case through the sizer trying to fix it and create a second dent.
The barrel isn’t split or damaged that I can see. If this was a severe over pressure that exploded the action the barrel would have split also. The action is the only thing that failed and it’s almost certain that it was from a brittle and cracked lug abutment. I personally had a M70 detonate like this action but it was from using the wrong powder. Both the barrel and the action split because the failure was from pressure that exceeded.....
This is a common misconception. A severe over-pressure will
not always split the barrel. In the example below the shooter filled the .257 Weatherby case with BlueDot and fired. One can clearly see that the barrel was not split. The rifle was a Weatherby Vanguard...
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=341348&highlight=blue+dot.
That's an excellent list of what can fit into a chamber and may fire.
How would one close the bolt on a 7mm ultra
or 300win cartridge?
A little side track to the topic here, but I got interested in pressure events long ago with cast bullets and light charges and case fillers etc so this tragic event re awakened my interest. My google fu is pretty poor, my library limited, but I tried again to research air space and slow powders...it's shocking that anything that dangerous can be that hard to find data on. Anecdotally, I had a friend, now deceased who was involved in a tort case in which he, as an expert witness, duplicated a light load of slow powder in a .264 Win I think...with some input by Rick Jamison, blew a model 70 all to hell and documented and filmed the whole thing. After all that, a settlement was reached, all the plaintiff got was medical expenses and an undisclosed sum, the ammo company (I can't recall) admitting no liability. Anyway, first try, John blew up the model 70 with a light charge.
The dent got there from the cartridge hitting the bench, the follower, the ground, or a combination, when the floorplate blew open. Smokeless powder burns pretty clean (Hence, the name) and not everything is covered with soot. There is still no evidence of anything happening other than the receiver failing. The cause(s), simply not known. GD
OK. Even AJ300MAG can come up with a better story than what you managed. Powder burns so clean that pierced primers or leaks around primers usually show black around the leak and the adjacent bolt face which may often also include pitting. Show me one case hurled against something with a dent like that.
The dent did not blow up the rifle. I have had a number of them over the years and fired all of them and afterwards could no longer identify the case nor did it in any case I remember even affect accuracy. That the case is a reload only means that it needs to be consider as a possibility when looking for an answer. That reloads are at least as likely to wreck a rifle as factory ammo and depending on the reloader, perhaps greatly more so. When coupled with the blow up those cases can be much more readily and perhaps much more definitively provide an explanation. And lastly of course, manufacturers have demonstrated a distinct aversion to standing behind rifle damage when reloads are involved to the point of stating that such use voids the warranty.
I would file this response under the heading of “you can’t make this stuff up”. In that, after a long hiatus from this website, I’m guessing months, you are back and still convinced you have the answer(s) to everything. Read your recent posts again, classic “I’m smarter than you” permeates in everything you write. Classic blowhard.
Wow
😀😀😀😀😀
BINGO!! New year, same old dickhead58.
I’ve seen one modern 308 M70 (FN) which literally blew the f up.
An acquaintance who had recently started reloading used an appropriate powder charge by weight, but he accidentally swapped whatever IMR powder he had on the bench for his .40, instead of IMR 4064.
Barrel landed at the 50 yard line, left side of action peeled out like a banana, stock cracked right at the front of action, scope rail and scope bent. Bolt still in battery. Got a pic, don’t really know how to post it these days.
Other than [bleep] his pants, luckily the shooter was unharmed.
A little side track to the topic here, but I got interested in pressure events long ago with cast bullets and light charges and case fillers etc so this tragic event re awakened my interest. My google fu is pretty poor, my library limited, but I tried again to research air space and slow powders...it's shocking that anything that dangerous can be that hard to find data on. Anecdotally, I had a friend, now deceased who was involved in a tort case in which he, as an expert witness, duplicated a light load of slow powder in a .264 Win I think...with some input by Rick Jamison, blew a model 70 all to hell and documented and filmed the whole thing. After all that, a settlement was reached, all the plaintiff got was medical expenses and an undisclosed sum, the ammo company (I can't recall) admitting no liability. Anyway, first try, John blew up the model 70 with a light charge.
Anyone else have more info on this, or possibly some documentation? I've been considering the SEE theory along with a few others....
![[Linked Image]](https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/gallery/80/full/147211.jpg)
Find other gun failures that look similar
93 Mauser? I have seen this on 95's and 96's; never on a 98. That one looks kind of like it started to fail across the top, at the end of the thread, first; then it just came apart. GD
93 Mauser? I have seen this on 95's and 96's; never on a 98.
Ive not seen an M98 catastrophic either, but take
the word of Tom Burgess and D'Arcy Echols who
have.
Tom stated he'd seen an FN split all the way
to the bolt release.. D'Arcy spoke of Oberndorf
magnum-mauser that sent the bolt flying into
a car door. (pistol powder related screwup).
93 Mauser? I have seen this on 95's and 96's; never on a 98. That one looks kind of like it started to fail across the top, at the end of the thread, first; then it just came apart. GD
There are images and collections of images of guns that failed.
If I right click on that image in Chrome, and then select "search google for image" which is searching against an image, not text.
The oldest reference is 2007... and not on the first page or results.
http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=32517.0The FR7 uses a Mauser 93 actionThey did not know where the images came from in 2007.
20 years ago the late gunsmith Randy Ketchum told me a FR7 like that came into his shop with the headspace pushed so far back it was unsafe to shoot.
Randy knew a lot about hot loads. He independently developed a steel case head cartridge with brass body before Casull did. I saw the hardware.
It is starting up again
https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/277-sig-fury-demystified/
Around 1975 on our way to spend a holiday weekend with grandma Honda the Toyota Corona quit on the Jersey turnpike in the middle of the night. Brother first then I were tasked with holding the flashlight while the old man conducted repairs as we languished aside the interstate. "I KNOW YOU TWO WEREN'T BORN RETARDED!" and something about inheriting Wee Muther's genes was said that awful night. Me and [bleep]: "what is 'genes' ?
93 Mauser? I have seen this on 95's and 96's; never on a 98.
Ive not seen an M98 catastrophic either, but take
the word of Tom Burgess and D'Arcy Echols who
have.
Tom stated he'd seen an FN split all the way
to the bolt release.. D'Arcy spoke of Oberndorf
magnum-mauser that sent the bolt flying into
a car door. (pistol powder related screwup).
bet that FN was not the true 98 pattern
Around 1975 on our way to spend a holiday weekend with grandma Honda the Toyota Corona quit on the Jersey turnpike in the middle of the night. Brother first then I were tasked with holding the flashlight while the old man conducted repairs as we languished aside the interstate. "I KNOW YOU TWO WEREN'T BORN RETARDED!" and something about inheriting Wee Muther's genes was said that awful night. Me and [bleep]: "what is 'genes' ?
That's what I thought you'd say
Twenty Years ago a guy at the bench to my left blew up a Remington 760. I caught shrapnel on my back (no injury). Fellow had a few cuts and was shook up. Turns out he was a newer reloader using Lee dippers. Surmised his reloads were the culprit.
Different brand/action/caliber etc..... . Barrel went about 4’ forward. No damage, not obstructed. Receiver was destroyed as was butt stock.
Being so close to a “Kaboom” sure makes one realize how attention to detail and safety are required reloading. This thread reminds me of that day. Good read.
I know of a guy who managed to get a 308 in a 280.
Those saying only a 350 Mag could fit are being way to
scientific. This is "Stars Aligned, Phugged Up Time".
There are a number if larger caliber cartridges that might slide in.
Would they go off?
Of course.
Most likely not reliably.
But if fed from the mag, that controlled round feed everyone
loves would actually help make this more likely.
Catastrophic failures rarely follow a single fault.
There are usually 2 or more things that happen. Or don't happen.
I have not had a chance to read all of the posts here, so it is possible this is a repeat of another post. Apologies of this is the case.
My company deals exclusively with pre-64 model 70s, including building custom rifles. I have some ideas of how this kind of thing could happen.
The first question I want to ask is about the chambering of the rifle itself. 7mm Rem Mag is not a factory chambering for the pre-64 model 70, which means this was either a custom rifle, or the wrong Ammo was used.
>>Has anyone confirmed the rifle is actually a 7mm Rem Mag and that it was being fired with ammo that was correct for the chambering? I hate to say this, but relying on the chamber caliber markings is not reliable once a rifle had been messed with. The chamber should be cast and the bore gauged to confirm the rifle is actually a 7mm Rem Mag. As a related note, Winchester did sell a pre-64 model 70 with a chamber stamp of “7 M/M”. These rifles were chambered for the 7x57mm Mauser cartridge.
>>The second question is what pre-64 action was used for this rifle? Standard? Short Magnum? H&H Magnum? The 7mm Rem Mag is a pretty long cartridge. If it was built on a Standard or Short Magnum action, the builder may have tried to improve feeding of the long 7mm Rem Mag cartridge by relieving the feed ramp at the top of the magazine. The problem with doing this is the feed ramp is the structure behind the lower receiver bolt lug. I have seen people modify these ramps and in the process remove a lot of strength from this lower lug.
Clearly a very close exam of the rifle and of the ammo is needed , but if this was a custom rifle there are a lot of questions that need to be answered about the chambering and the workmanship of the custom build.
...the builder may have tried to improve feeding of the long 7mm Rem Mag cartridge by relieving the feed ramp at the top of the magazine. The problem with doing this is the feed ramp is the structure behind the lower receiver bolt lug. I have seen people modify these ramps and in the process remove a lot of strength from this lower lug.
Clearly a very close exam of the rifle and of the ammo is needed , but if this was a custom rifle there are a lot of questions that need to be answered about the chambering and the workmanship of the custom build.
Fits perfectly with one of those photos, doesn't it?
Now that I’m home and not on my phone, I can see a few noteworthy things:
1. The rifle had a custom barrel, so 7mm Rem Mag makes sense.
2. The action is a standard pre-64 action (used by the factory on all non-magnum cartridges). Not ideal for a magnum, but can be made to work with some modifications to the feed rails.
3. The receiver has a non-factory hole added on the left side, opposite the factory gas vent hole. This did not appear to play any role in the failure, but raises the question of why and what else was modified on the receiver.
4. The bottom receiver bolt lug appears to be the initial point of failure in the receiver (not necessarily the cause of the failure, but the fist point on the receiver to fail). The rest of the damage on the receiver is consistent with this lower lug failing first.
5. The way the case failed right at the rim makes me think we had a headspacing problem.
6. The way the stock failed makes me think we had a headspacing problem.
Too much headspacing —> bolt puts too much pressure on the lugs —> lower lug fails (it is inherently weaker than the upper lug) —> bolt pushes upward as it cams over the lower receiver lug —> upper lug breaks receiver ring and bolt flies backward (equal and opposite bullet energy) —> receiver bridge captures and stops the bolt —> stock cannot withstand the load of the sudden stopping of the bolt, which shears the wood at the recoil lug and snaps the stock at the wrist.
It’s only a theory based on what I can see, but that rifle looks like it had a headspacing problem.
Except the bottom lug and seat was not the initial point of failure. The receiver ring failed first. The case failed at the rim because, once the bolt deflected upward, because the top half of the receiver ring was gone, there was no support for the case and it blew out. Of course, I don't know what happened any more than anyone else but it seems unlikely the lower lug would fail and then the receiver would come apart. I think you have put the cart ahead of the horse. Headspace? Who knows? The fired case shows no indication of headspace issues. GD
Mod 70 Exploded![[Linked Image from rarewinchesters.com]](https://www.rarewinchesters.com/images/Exploded%20Views/Model%2070%20Exploded%20View%201.jpg)
Except the bottom lug and seat was not the initial point of failure. The receiver ring failed first.
The ring failed for a reason and it wasn’t because the chamber expanded radially. The tenon is perfectly intact. The reason why the ring failed is because the lower bolt lug cammed over the lower receiver lug and blew it out from below.
The fired case shows no indication of headspace issues. GD
The case shows classic excess headspace failure. Better look again. Just because the whole rim did not let go doesn’t mean there was not excess headspace. The whole left side of the case base is gone, blown out from the case wall back. The stock also shows classic signs of a headspace problem.
>>The second question is what pre-64 action was used for this rifle? Standard? Short Magnum? H&H Magnum? The 7mm Rem Mag is a pretty long cartridge. If it was built on a Standard or Short Magnum action, the builder may have tried to improve feeding of the long 7mm Rem Mag cartridge by relieving the feed ramp at the top of the magazine. .
7-mag OAL is typically about the same
as 270win or 338mag... so I don't why you
are questioning which action and metal
removal from the ramp.
Some pre64s have crappy heat treat,
so that could have been a factor that
helped the disaster along.
Now that I’m home and not on my phone, I can see a few noteworthy things:
..
2. The action is a standard pre-64 action (used by the factory on all non-magnum cartridges). Not ideal for a magnum, but can be made to work with some modifications to the feed rails.
How can you tell its a
Std action?
How do you know its not a rebarrel
of a factory .264 or .338?
How can you tell its a Std action?
How do you know its not a rebarrel
of a factory .264 or .338?
Hi starman. The standard action magazine box has 3 feed rails bent into the side of the box. The short (.458) magnum action only has one feed rail in the box. I can see from the box in the photos (and also the follower) that this was a standard action. What can’t be seen in the photos is that inside a standard action receiver are machined in feed rails that don’t exist on the short magnum action.
Belted Magnum rounds like the 7MM Remington Magnum won’t feed properly in a standard action without grinding away some of those feed rails. So I can promise you the receiver was modified. A standard receiver won’t feed a belted Magnum properly unless some material is removed.
Opening the rails is one thing, removing metal from
the ramp another... 7 mag is not the 'long' cartridge
you are suggesting, no longer than other std length
magnums that Win. chambered from the factory.
Winchester made same Magbox length for .270win
as it did for its proprietary .264 and 338win.
Except the bottom lug and seat was not the initial point of failure. The receiver ring failed first. The case failed at the rim because, once the bolt deflected upward, because the top half of the receiver ring was gone, there was no support for the case and it blew out. Of course, I don't know what happened any more than anyone else but it seems unlikely the lower lug would fail and then the receiver would come apart. I think you have put the cart ahead of the horse. Headspace? Who knows? The fired case shows no indication of headspace issues. GD
That is all backwards, the case failed first and escaping gas ruptured the action
[/quote]
That is all backwards, the case failed first and escaping gas ruptured the action
Yes, we all know the case failed. The question being discussed is in what sequence the receiver failed.
Opening the rails is one thing, removing metal from
the ramp another... 7 mag is not the 'long' cartridge
you are suggesting, no longer than other std length
magnums that Win. chambered from the factory.
Winchester made same Magbox length for .270win
as it did for its proprietary .264 and 338win.
You are right that the Mag boxes are the same length. The issue is how was the receiver modified. We know it had to be. I have hundreds of pre-64 model 70s in my shop every year. We build custom rifles on the the model 70 action. More importantly, people send us their jacked up rifles to have us fix what other “gunsmiths” have screwed up. When people can’t get the belted Mag cartridges to feed, they often grind the feed ramp. The reason they do this is because when you try to feed a belted Mag in a standard action the belt causes the action to hold the base of the case too low in the box while the bolt is coming forward. The crf bolt face doesn’t grab the back of the case so the bullet tip ends up angled too high and jammed into the top of the cone breech. If a smith does not realize what needs to be changed, they are sometimes baited into thinking they can bring the feed angle down by lowering the ramp. I have a junk drawer of receivers which have received this exact treatment.
Look, I don’t have the time or interest in having a pissing match with you about the details of how these actions are designed, supposed to work, or how they are often modified, so I’ll just bow out. But you really should check your ego at the door to help the OP get the most out of these conversations. Some people who come onto these sites bring very specific knowledge. If this was a Rem 700 thread, I wouldn’t pretend to know anything. But the reality is I see and work on hundreds of pre-64 Winchester rifles every year. It’s the only gun we work on. It’s just possible I know a thing or two about the way this action works.
Except the bottom lug and seat was not the initial point of failure. The receiver ring failed first. The case failed at the rim because, once the bolt deflected upward, because the top half of the receiver ring was gone, there was no support for the case and it blew out. Of course, I don't know what happened any more than anyone else but it seems unlikely the lower lug would fail and then the receiver would come apart. I think you have put the cart ahead of the horse. Headspace? Who knows? The fired case shows no indication of headspace issues. GD
That is all backwards, the case failed first and escaping gas ruptured the action
You don't know this. Nor do I. If the case failed, we are dealing with a severe overload or wrong cartridge scenario. I am taking the shooter's (via the OP) word that this is not the case and the round was a factory load. Keep in mind, when it comes down to what came first, it is a matter of microseconds in the chain of events. I have seen cases where an action was shown, upon examination, to have had an incipient failure. A weakening of the receiver, along the corner of the right hand raceway, was unnoticed but failed after several shots. The result didn't look much different than what is shown here. I have also seen some which came apart due to severe over pressure (wrong powder or wrong ammunition) and they didn't look a lot different. Right now, this effing site is making it almost impossible for me to type without cutting me off while it displays soft core porn so I'll have to give up on it.
I would like for someone to describe to me the classic signs of excessive headspace, shown by the case which was fired BEFORE the action came apart.
Am I the only one who has problems with this site? GD
I would like for someone to describe to me the classic signs of excessive headspace, shown by the case which was fired BEFORE the action came apart.
Excess headspace creates a hammer effect with the bolt. Essentially giving it enough of a run at the receiver lugs to slam the bolt backward into them. This has the effect on the shooter of feeling like a massive recoil (if the action holds together). Often excess headspace breaks the stock because of the energy the stock sees when the bolt impacts the receiver lugs. If you look at the photos, the entire recoil lug portion of the stock inletting is sheared out of the rest of the stock. To me, this is a good indication of a massive recoil. Many times more energy than a hot load with a heavy bullet could cause. Also, excessive headspace will rupture the cartridge at the base, where it is not supported by the chamber. If you look at the photos, you can clearly see a rupture on the left side of the case. To me, these both indicate a headspace issue. Not conclusive, but a really good indicator.
Right now, this effing site is making it almost impossible for me to type without cutting me off while it displays soft core porn so I'll have to give up on it.
Am I the only one who has problems with this site? GD
GrayDog, I have not been here in over a year, but I am with you 100% What is the deal with the garbage ads? It used to be gun companies advertising on this site. Honestly, it's a good enough reason to stick to some of the other discussion sites that seem to have better control of their sponsors.
If it was excess headspace, why would it fire one round without issue, then let go catastrophically with the second round? It appears the gun had been functioning without issue well before this young man's range session.
If you look at the first case which was fired, the primer is not unduly flat (this can be a sign of excessive headspace), there is no sign of an incipient head separation (another classic sign of excessive headspace), and there is no ejector slot mark which, again, can be a sign of excessive headspace. This leads me to believe head clearance was not an issue until the receiver failed!
By the way, I have a pre-war Model 70 which was re-chambered to 308 Norma in 1962. I have re-barreled it three times since then. The rails are untouched and it feeds and functions perfectly. GD
Do you guys have a good ad blocker on your computer? It will do wonders to get rid of the incipient ads and they are free to download. Also, delete your cookies once in a while and you will get away from a lot of the tracking ads and BS that comes along with them....
You are right that the Mag boxes are the same length. The issue is how was the receiver modified. We know it had to be. I have hundreds of pre-64 model 70s in my shop every year. We build custom rifles on the the model 70 action. More importantly, people send us their jacked up rifles to have us fix what other “gunsmiths” have screwed up. When people can’t get the belted Mag cartridges to feed, they often grind the feed ramp. The reason they do this is because when you try to feed a belted Mag in a standard action the belt causes the action to hold the base of the case too low in the box while the bolt is coming forward. The crf bolt face doesn’t grab the back of the case so the bullet tip ends up angled too high and jammed into the top of the cone breech. If a smith does not realize what needs to be changed, they are sometimes baited into thinking they can bring the feed angle down by lowering the ramp. I have a junk drawer of receivers which have received this exact treatment.
Look, I don’t have the time or interest in having a pissing match with you about the details of how these actions are designed, supposed to work, or how they are often modified, so I’ll just bow out. But you really should check your ego at the door to help the OP get the most out of these conversations. Some people who come onto these sites bring very specific knowledge. If this was a Rem 700 thread, I wouldn’t pretend to know anything. But the reality is I see and work on hundreds of pre-64 Winchester rifles every year. It’s the only gun we work on. It’s just possible I know a thing or two about the way this action works.
Its not about my ego, it's about your blatant
basic ignorance concerning 7 mag OAL,
then based on that ignorance you allege
the feed ramp was modified to accommodate.
But alas two long paragraphs of sidetrack
waffle to tell everyone what an expert you are. .
But the reality is I see and work on hundreds of pre-64 Winchester rifles every year
Ive never dealt with a custom shop that works
on hundreds of bolt rifles every year even with
a small skilled crew.
but you alone personally work on hundreds annually.
Its comes down to quantity
vs quality.
Keep in mind that IF it's operator error it would be stupid to post it publicly.
You are right that the Mag boxes are the same length. The issue is how was the receiver modified. We know it had to be. I have hundreds of pre-64 model 70s in my shop every year. We build custom rifles on the the model 70 action. More importantly, people send us their jacked up rifles to have us fix what other “gunsmiths” have screwed up. When people can’t get the belted Mag cartridges to feed, they often grind the feed ramp. The reason they do this is because when you try to feed a belted Mag in a standard action the belt causes the action to hold the base of the case too low in the box while the bolt is coming forward. The crf bolt face doesn’t grab the back of the case so the bullet tip ends up angled too high and jammed into the top of the cone breech. If a smith does not realize what needs to be changed, they are sometimes baited into thinking they can bring the feed angle down by lowering the ramp. I have a junk drawer of receivers which have received this exact treatment.
Look, I don’t have the time or interest in having a pissing match with you about the details of how these actions are designed, supposed to work, or how they are often modified, so I’ll just bow out. But you really should check your ego at the door to help the OP get the most out of these conversations. Some people who come onto these sites bring very specific knowledge. If this was a Rem 700 thread, I wouldn’t pretend to know anything. But the reality is I see and work on hundreds of pre-64 Winchester rifles every year. It’s the only gun we work on. It’s just possible I know a thing or two about the way this action works.
Its not about my ego, it's about your blatant
basic ignorance concerning 7 mag OAL,
then based on that ignorance you allege
the feed ramp was modified to accommodate.
Not that it would matter to you Starman, but do you have any idea who you are arguing with. He has forgotten more about the pre-64 action than you will ever be able to copy and paste. Do yourself a favor and just read and learn.
IF you want to 'learn' from someone who
doesn't even know the OAL of 7 mag
go right ahead.. 😂.. Coz you know he
works on hundreds of pre64 every year...
I don't know of any top level pre64 smiths
(with any repute) that do anywhere near
that crazy number.
Go talk to Echols, Penrod, Jerry Fisher,
Ralf Martini, etc.. or any ACGG member
and ask how many rifles they have turned
out a year.
IF you want to 'learn' from someone who
doesn't even know the OAL of 7 mag
go right ahead.. 😂.. Coz you know he
works on hundreds of pre64 every year...
If I misstated the OAL of the 7mm RM, please point it out. I will save you the effort - I didn't. What I did do was explain why the feed of any of the longer belted magnum rounds from a standard action can bait a gunmaker into thinking they need to modify the feed ramp. Shorter belted magnums won't face this same issue because the belt will center and rise into the CRF bolt face as soon as the standard receiver feed rails push the cartridge to the center.
I don't know of any top level pre64 smiths
(with any repute) that do anywhere near
that crazy number.
At least you can admit you don't know some things. And it's clear you don't know us. Our shop is 100% dedicated to the pre-64 model 70. It is all we work on.
If I misstated the OAL of the 7mm RM, please point it out. I will save you the effort - I didn't.
You stated 7 mag is 'pretty long' yet fact is
its no longer than the regular vanilla 270win
and Winchester belted magnums.
I'd say that Federal ammo is made to length
to fit into many ordinary production rifles.
You are right that the Mag boxes are the same length. The issue is how was the receiver modified. We know it had to be. I have hundreds of pre-64 model 70s in my shop every year. We build custom rifles on the the model 70 action. More importantly, people send us their jacked up rifles to have us fix what other “gunsmiths” have screwed up. When people can’t get the belted Mag cartridges to feed, they often grind the feed ramp. The reason they do this is because when you try to feed a belted Mag in a standard action the belt causes the action to hold the base of the case too low in the box while the bolt is coming forward. The crf bolt face doesn’t grab the back of the case so the bullet tip ends up angled too high and jammed into the top of the cone breech. If a smith does not realize what needs to be changed, they are sometimes baited into thinking they can bring the feed angle down by lowering the ramp. I have a junk drawer of receivers which have received this exact treatment.
Look, I don’t have the time or interest in having a pissing match with you about the details of how these actions are designed, supposed to work, or how they are often modified, so I’ll just bow out. But you really should check your ego at the door to help the OP get the most out of these conversations. Some people who come onto these sites bring very specific knowledge. If this was a Rem 700 thread, I wouldn’t pretend to know anything. But the reality is I see and work on hundreds of pre-64 Winchester rifles every year. It’s the only gun we work on. It’s just possible I know a thing or two about the way this action works.
Its not about my ego, it's about your blatant
basic ignorance concerning 7 mag OAL,
then based on that ignorance you allege
the feed ramp was modified to accommodate.
Not that it would matter to you Starman, but do you have any idea who you are arguing with. He has forgotten more about the pre-64 action than you will ever be able to copy and paste. Do yourself a favor and just read and learn.
Well perhaps you would fill us in on who he is?
You are right that the Mag boxes are the same length. The issue is how was the receiver modified. We know it had to be. I have hundreds of pre-64 model 70s in my shop every year. We build custom rifles on the the model 70 action. More importantly, people send us their jacked up rifles to have us fix what other “gunsmiths” have screwed up. When people can’t get the belted Mag cartridges to feed, they often grind the feed ramp. The reason they do this is because when you try to feed a belted Mag in a standard action the belt causes the action to hold the base of the case too low in the box while the bolt is coming forward. The crf bolt face doesn’t grab the back of the case so the bullet tip ends up angled too high and jammed into the top of the cone breech. If a smith does not realize what needs to be changed, they are sometimes baited into thinking they can bring the feed angle down by lowering the ramp. I have a junk drawer of receivers which have received this exact treatment.
Look, I don’t have the time or interest in having a pissing match with you about the details of how these actions are designed, supposed to work, or how they are often modified, so I’ll just bow out. But you really should check your ego at the door to help the OP get the most out of these conversations. Some people who come onto these sites bring very specific knowledge. If this was a Rem 700 thread, I wouldn’t pretend to know anything. But the reality is I see and work on hundreds of pre-64 Winchester rifles every year. It’s the only gun we work on. It’s just possible I know a thing or two about the way this action works.
Its not about my ego, it's about your blatant
basic ignorance concerning 7 mag OAL,
then based on that ignorance you allege
the feed ramp was modified to accommodate.
Not that it would matter to you Starman, but do you have any idea who you are arguing with. He has forgotten more about the pre-64 action than you will ever be able to copy and paste. Do yourself a favor and just read and learn.
Well perhaps you would fill us in on who he is?
Don't know the gentleman's name, but have bought pre-64 parts from his company and talked to someone there a few times about a model 70 I was working. Genially good people to deal with and very helpful over the phone. Not saying he is in the same category as Starman about all things internet searchable, but I'd buy parts from him again and ask for his opinion if I needed to know something about a pre-64 Winchester.
Hey Chucktool if you go to SCI and ACGG
you get to meet and talk to those smiths
I mentioned, even get invited to their homes.
They also dont go on Forums trying to convince
everyone what experts they are, coz they don't
need to.
Hey Chucktool if you go to SCI and ACGG
you get to met and talk to those smiths
I mentioned, even get invited to their homes.
They also dont go on Forums trying to convince everyone what experts they are, coz they don't
need to.
Be alright if I mention that an idiot named Starman send me? I would like to know what I'm walking into if you know what I mean.
A young man whose mother is a good friend of my wife was seriously injured last month at the range. He was firing a Model 70 Winchester in 7mm Remington Magnum. He fired one round with no problems, then jacked in the next round and when he fired, the rifle completely blew up on him. He lost an eye and has had two eye surgeries since then. He was using factory ammunition, not reloads. The family asked me to bring it to this forum and see if anybody with expertise had any theories or insight into what happened.
Ideas?]
A reminder of the original post.
Chucktool,
So you've bought factory pre64 parts
but never had a quality custom done,
well if you do go, best you don't waste too
much of those smiths time... you can still
touch the display rifles if you ask and get
your rocks off... the guys you will find are
quite understanding.
Chucktool,
So you've bought factory pre64 parts
but never had a quality custom done,
well if you do go, best you don't waste too
much of those smiths time... you can still
touch the display rifles if you ask and get
your rocks off... the guys you will find are
quite understanding.
Foolman, I spent the morning doing barrel break-in on a new Christensen Arms Mesa and sighting in a new VX-3i CDS-ZL scope I bought myself for Christmas. Other than arguing with an actual Gunsmith about something you have no clue about, what did you do?
Hey Chucktool if you go to SCI and ACGG
you get to meet and talk to those smiths
I mentioned, even get invited to their homes.
They also dont go on Forums trying to convince everyone what experts they are, coz they don't
need to.
Lol. A good reminder from the guy with 7,700 posts to the guy with 170 posts why I stopped coming to this place. I will leave you to fill in everyone on everything. They clearly don't need any other perspectives.
A reminder of the original post.
Amen.
'Pre64' said he ain't getting into a piss'n match
yet here he still is.. 😂
Trying to repair the dents in his ego perhaps..?
.. I will leave you to fill in everyone on everything. They clearly don't
need any other perspectives.
By all means share your perspective,
just try not to get butthurt when your
blatant errors are called out.
Face it, not knowing the length of the 60 yr old
common as ditchwater 7 mag is embarrassingly
dumb when you claim to expertly work on hundreds
of rifles each and every year.
Worse, you then apply that bewildering ignorance
to 'expertly' explain away a theory on rifle blow up.
Hey Chucktool if you go to SCI and ACGG
you get to meet and talk to those smiths
I mentioned, even get invited to their homes.
They also dont go on Forums trying to convince everyone what experts they are, coz they don't
need to.
Lol. A good reminder from the guy with 7,700 posts to the guy with 170 posts why I stopped coming to this place. I will leave you to fill in everyone on everything. They clearly don't need any other perspectives.
A reminder of the original post.
Amen.
pre64win, you would probably be more at home in the Winchester Collector's forum or one of the hunting forums. I just check in here at the "Campfire" occasionally myself. Mostly talk about " Anybody took a SHlt out of their deerstand ?" and stuff like that here anymore.
This thread went quite a way before it ran totally off the rails; thanks to Starman and ChuckKY. GD
Hey Chucktool if you go to SCI and ACGG
you get to meet and talk to those smiths
I mentioned, even get invited to their homes.
They also dont go on Forums trying to convince
everyone what experts they are, coz they don't
need to.
I have been here just long enough to figure out that you are buck goddam retarded.
This thread went quite a way before it ran totally off the rails; thanks to Starman and ChuckKY. GD
Now I feel bad. Thanks a lot greydog.
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